Latest / Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce / 189. Why Re-Claiming Your Intuition After Divorce is an Act of Rebellion an Interview w/Kate Anthony

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189. Why Re-Claiming Your Intuition After Divorce is an Act of Rebellion an Interview w/Kate Anthony · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, I told you I was going to bring it today.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I know Really, she was like I have banger questions and I was like, okay, turns out, jesus.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Okay, these are not on the list of questions.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I gave you Dawn no which, by the way, I really love, because I'm sick of answering those questions.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's the thing when you've done this conversation so many times.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Hi love, welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave and build back your confidence.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, dawn Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer and divorcee.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce Loves.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Today we have with us Kate Anthony, host of the New York Times recommended podcast, the Divorce Survival Guide podcast.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: She's a divorce coach who helps women with children especially decide if they should stay in or leave their marriages and then either helps them heal their relationships or exit with grace.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Welcome, kate.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Dawn, this is our follow-up chat because I got to be a guest on your podcast.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: This interview is long overdue for you to be over here.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm excited.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Tell us just a smidgey smidge about where things are in the world of Katelyn.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Who are you?
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: What are you up to?
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Wow, yeah.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Wow, well, I wasn't expecting that.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: What is going on in my world?
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: You know, I had a rocky few years.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I think we've talked about this like health wise, I had a really rocky few years and I am feeling better than I have in many years since, like probably 2019 ish.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: My menopause was rough, um, and it was long.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: My perimenopause was long and rough and you know, I am back at the gym four days a week, hardcore working out, and my hormones are regulated and balanced and I just I feel better than I have in a really long time.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: So I'm stoked about that and my work is really fulfilling.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: It's really hard.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: I think it's a hard time to do what we do.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: In particular, there is a sort of a you know, there's always a rise before a fall.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: And.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's a patriarchal like, like last grasping it.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: You know it's getting and it's getting rough and and I love what I do I love helping women through their divorces make the decisions that they need to make to get through this as unscathed as possible, protecting their children, mm-hmm.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: And yeah, so it's a balance right.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: The work that I do tends to be pretty intense.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, a lot of domestic violence work that I do, unfortunately, and domestic abuse, and so it can be really hard.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: But you know, I'm just trying to keep balanced right.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: That's, that's.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's what we're all striving for, Right.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Striving, not necessarily achieving, but you know, we we touch it.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we work, yep, yep, yep.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: So blessed to have you on today because you really have like sort of the foremost podcasts in the divorce space, right Like?
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: You have worked with so many women, you have talked to so many experts, you have such a wisdom of experience, so I'm really excited for all the things we're going to talk about today.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you All right.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: What's a moment in your own life, outside of your career, that most shaped the way that you approach guiding women through divorce and all of their many struggles?
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Wow, okay, I told you I was going to bring it today.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I know Really.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: She was like I have banger questions and I was like mm-hmm, okay, turns out Jesus.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, these are not on the list of questions.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: I gave you Dawn, no, no, which, by the way, I really love, because I'm sick of answering those questions.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Right, okay, that's the thing when you've done this conversation so many times.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, so here's one.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: This is one a huge moment in my life.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: It was in college and I went to school for acting, so I went to an acting conservatory.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: I just recently learned this about you, but we never talked about it.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: I can't.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: So basically, like your freshman year, at the end of every semester they would do cuts and they so they would like boot people from the program.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: So you had to like.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: You know, every semester it got smaller and smaller.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Like I think our starting class was maybe like I don't know, 50 people, and then our graduating class was 17.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: So you know, wow, but they had to give you a warning the semester before.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: They couldn't cut you without to give you a warning the semester before.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: They couldn't cut you without having given you a warning the semester before.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: And I had sailed through.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I was very talented and I was really good, and so I had sailed through everything.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Um, but halfway through my sophomore year, in my conference, my professor professor said to me you're a bitch.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: And I was like, come again, what?
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Because I'm not a bitch right At all.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: And he said you have no idea how you come across you when you talk.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: You come across as a bitch and I don't think you mean it.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: And it was one of the most devastating moments of my entire life because I was so codependent.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: All I wanted was for everybody to like me, and he was right that the way I communicated was not in alignment with who I really was and that I had learned this communication style from my upbringing, from my family of origin and, in particular, my mother, who is very cutting and critical and and and critical doesn't really mean it, but you know, if you call her out on it, she's like I don't know what you're talking about, I'm not, you know, blah, blah, blah, and it's like you have no idea.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Similarly, you have no idea how you come across.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I had a friend say about my mother once you know all she wants is love.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: That's all she wants, and every tool she uses to get it does the opposite, pushes people away.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Isn't that wild how humans do that, yes, and that's exactly what I was doing, and I didn't know it.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Wow, and I went home from that meeting I was devastated, I was sobbing, I was like, and then I had to process it and realize that he was 100% correct and I had to change.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: And you know, from that moment I think it set me on the path for being the communicator that I am, and I'm known as an expert communicator.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: I went to school, I studied communication.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I learned how to communicate because it was so important for me to be authentic in who I was and what I you know, to portray my intention right.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: You know, we always talk about impact versus intent, and that impact really does trump intent.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: I don't care how you meant it, how it came out and how it impacted me.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Was not that Not congruent?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, and so I learned, I took that very seriously and I learned how to have those things align and it's the greatest gift I think anyone ever gave me.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, hot damn, that was quite an answer.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: You know, what's so remarkable to me about that moment is how you went home and came to the realization he was right, Because I think that is more the defining moment.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Right Is your internal deliberation and your willingness to take your own inventory, which is what so many of us struggle with Totally.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: And by us and our listeners, right, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: And look, it was like 10 years of, like you know, processing and then and like having the thing come back at me a number of times and realize like, oh, this is me Right, but it was the beginning of a journey.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: That was an incredible gift.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: It's just so remarkable.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: You know, that is the thing, right, it's not like you went home and it was all better, like three weeks later, right.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, I sold that now.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: No, it was years of, yeah, teasing out that communication style.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do remember, probably when I was 28, so almost like you know, probably like nine years later, having this sort of like out-of-body experience, recognizing that I felt like the world that I had been living in was this box that was created by my mother, this reality that was dictated by my mother.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Relatable and then I suddenly popped my head out of the box and went oh world, wow I didn't realize, yeah, right, and I get to choose.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Now, now I get to choose.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: But while I was living inside that box, I had no choice.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: But there was something in the work that I was doing, the personal work that I was doing, that had me realize like, oh wow, this is a box and I don't have to be in it.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: So I found that moment where I realized I had been in the box and poked my head out of the box.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: I found that moment to be simultaneous.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: You know that scene from Rapunzel where she's running in the grass and then she freaks out and Ryder is like I can't help but seem.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: You're sort of at war with yourself.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I experienced it that way where I would get really excited and empowered and I'd do something, and then I'd be like I'm going to hell, I'm going to hell.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, was it that way for?
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: you too, did you feel that inner war also, or was it just like a brave new world?
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: No, no, it's absolutely terrifying because you know, as you start stripping, what tends to happen is we strip before we, you know, rebuild right, and so in that process of stripping, you're just kind of like naked in the world, without all the tools that you've been using up until this point.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: And now you don't have your tools, you don't know who you are, what do?
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I do now Right.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: And then you start to rebuild.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: But there is that period of vulnerability and confusion and terror.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I often describe it as like right as you're stripping, right as you're deconstructing the beliefs, you don't have this, what you perceived as a safety net of your belief system, underneath you anymore.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: So it's just like if.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I slip off this tightrope.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: I could just frickin free fall.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: That's right, and it's not true, but that's how it feels, that's how we perceived it, yeah.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Totally, Totally.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: And we do sometimes, we do free fall right, and then we realize like oh wait no, okay.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I'm okay, I'm okay.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: That's okay.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Right, it's I'm, I'm wrong and I'm okay huge one.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: So good, so good, okay.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: So sidebar, not a banger question, but like somewhere since we did our first interview, I learned that you played a role on was it friends, I don't know?
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Something like, oh god, no, grace anatomy, grace, oh, what's the difference, friends?
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, oh god don't, don't tell them.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: I said that, don't tell them.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I said that I just mean, like both very, very popular shows, yeah, yeah, tell me more grace anatomy well, I, I was an actor for, you know, the first part of my life, the first I mean really it was like the first 30 years because I was.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I started as an actor when I was very young, on Sesame Street.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: So, the beginning of my career was five years on Sesame Street.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, I was forced into retirement at the age of eight, very sad time.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: And then I, you know, and then I was an actor.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I worked.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I grew up in New York City.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: My parents were actors, so I was sort of around it all the time.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: I did my first professional off-Broadway show when I was 11.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Um, and you know, I just worked and worked.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: And then I went to college and then got out and I worked and worked and I worked into in some television, um, and theater mostly theater, um, and some television.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: And then I moved out to LA and I, you know, landed a role as a nurse on this new TV show that you know, just starting out and nobody knew.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And then nobody knew and it was.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: You know, it was great, I, I, I knew Ellen, uh, from before.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: We actually, um, we're friends from the dog park, ellen Pompeo, okay, cause it's LA.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: And so you know this is who you're hanging out in the dog park, Ellen Pompeo.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, Because it's LA, and so you know this is who you're hanging out in the dog park with Debra Messing.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: It was a very small little park that we kind of took over in the evenings and it was ridiculous.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: So yeah, and so you know, I landed this role as this nurse on this show and I was one of the nurses in the early seasons like the first five seasons that was, you know, actually had stuff to do before they realized that like, oh, we want the show to center only around the doctors had a lot of fun stuff.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I had a you know this rivalry with Sandra.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, my character.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to go back and watch it all now.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: We had a fight in a bar and you know it was fun, it was great, we had a super fun time and you know, and that was that.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: And then I got divorced in the, you know, towards the end of that reign I got divorced and I was like what do I want to do now?
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: And I felt done with acting.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I felt done Well, I felt done with the industry frankly, and you know I was leaving an abusive marriage, emotionally and verbally abusive marriage and I felt like the entertainment industry is an abusive relationship for actors yeah, and there was something in me that was like I am not going to leave this.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: One and stay in the other.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I've grown to be a person who no longer not tolerates, but it no longer fits Like.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: This is something that no longer fits on me, and so when I try to be in it, it doesn't fit, it doesn't feel right, and so I didn't want to do it anymore.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: And I, you know, look, if I could have continued to do theater, I probably would have, because theater is a much different medium for actors and it's it's respects the craft, it respects the artist and it's a, it's a family.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: You just the, the, the community and the creativity is an amazing place to be, but you can't do that as a single mom.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: You can't be like.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: No, no performing at night right like it doesn't, doesn't work, it doesn't work.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: So anyway, yeah, that was that.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: And then I was like what do I want to do now?
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: And then I decided I wanted to sort of do this thing called divorce coaching that nobody had ever heard of at the time yeah 2009, 10, 11.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: We weren't getting divorced at the same time.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, hey, divorce bestie.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Hey baby, yeah Right, if we had only known, because, like I didn't know, there was.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: No, you know, we didn't.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: That's what I say.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Right, like I, the things that I teach, now I I had, oh my God, anyways, yeah.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: A hundred percent.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Well, also because there was no Instagram, there were no podcasts there was no, you know social media was.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Facebook and that was for like reconnecting with your high school friends, and you know that was that Posting pictures of your food, yeah, and your kids you know, wow, that was okay, that was a fun sidebar, that was really.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: you've had such an interesting magical life.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so magical, okay.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: So you are a fierce advocate that gives women permission to be unapologetic about their decisions.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: When was the last time you had to give yourself the same permission, and what did it teach you?
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: She strikes again.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I know, jeez Dawn.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: The last time I gave myself permission to make a difficult decision, I think that it might be to parent my son in the way that he needed, not in the way that everyone told me I should.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Some of my biggest parenting regrets are when I was doing things that other people were doing, because I thought, that's what I was supposed to do and I look back and I'm like, oh God, oh God, oh God.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: It gives me the heebie-jeebies.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Kate, your answer gives me chills, right.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: I have a neurodivergent son who spent his life just being battered and traumatized by the education system and you know, to advocate for him I had to go up against his dad often.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Let alone the system.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Right and and we were in pretty understanding systems, but like also not right, Because like there's also the box, and you know he suffered a lot, and so for me to just be his fiercest ally and advocate and go up against.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, I still do it with my mother you know, because he doesn't follow the model and he won't, and he can't and he shouldn't, and that's also part of what makes him so brilliant, and I but advocating for him in the face of all of this, you know, lack of understanding, lack of education, right, man?
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: That was a huge one, yeah.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: You know it gives me chills because it's something I've been sitting with, especially this year, and I've recorded some episodes about it.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: But you know I'm like all in on homeopathy and my daughter has a good bit of neurodivergent underlying stuff.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: My daughter has a good bit of neurodivergent underlying stuff which we've been unwinding as much of it as we can, even food allergies and the various things that kids today have in a system that doesn't accommodate, and so she's had a lot of sick days in school this year and it's looked not like how everybody else is doing it and I actually was like saying to myself at some point I was like internally gathering letters of reference in case they called child protective services on me, right, because to swim upstream in the systems is so nerve wracking, yeah.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: So, and you know I, ended up sitting with the headmaster, like literally maybe a week or two ago, and he was like, oh God, what are you talking about?
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: You're well respected.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: And I was like, like you're saying like you know, pretty like supportive systems, right, but it's, it's not easy to go against.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: It's one of the hardest things.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: It's really not to go against.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: It's one of the hardest things, it's really not.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: And also, the systems don't always work.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: You know, I was in a one of his schools.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: He had a.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: He had a 504.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: I sat beginning of the school year, sat with the special education department head, mapped out his 504.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And I kept getting every single day I would get calls from the school.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Emmett really wasn't, he was, you know, talking out of turn.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: He was you know this, that and the other like complaining to me about him.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: And I'd be like uh-huh, okay, did you follow the plan?
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so my, I was under the assumption that, like I was like okay, yeah, okay, yeah, that's right, that checks out.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Eventually, I blurted out to one of the teachers who called me.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I was like I don't understand.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I was like help me understand this.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: He has a 504.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: This is all delineated in the 504.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: And she there was like this dead silence and she goes Kate, there's no 504 on file for him, holy shit.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: And they were calling me basically saying, hey, your kid probably like without saying it your kid, like nobody was saying it, and I was like, and I was like he has a 504.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: The executive director of the school called, like they were so terrified because, by the way, they were in violation of his rights and I could have sued the crap out of them.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Um, and all of the teachers at pick, because they would like at, they would be looking at me like I was this, you know, out to lunch mom, who just didn't understand.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: And then that day at pickup, every one of the teachers came up to me and they were like we had no idea.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: We had no idea.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, it was right.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: And it was like, and I went in there and I was like, look, I'm not here to raise hell, I am here to get my son's accommodations, like what he desires and what he needs and what like really what he needs, and what he deserves and learning that communication stuff that we talked about in the beginning.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: right, that's how I was able to navigate this, because I knew now how to say what I needed to say, I knew how to be assertive without being aggressive or you know.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: But I knew how to stand in my own power and as a mother, and I think our kids give us that right like, yeah, no holds barred if it comes to my kid, uh-uh, okay.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: so your, your question to your answer to banger, question number two is going to segue brilliantly into number three, which is not going to be so hard anymore, okay, okay.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: So for our listeners, right, if the children of divorced parents grow up internalizing the children, right, grow up internalizing one core value from how their divorcing mothers handled the experience, what would you hope that value would be.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Themselves, that they value themselves, that they are modeled, that it's okay to leave something that doesn't work for you, that we can disagree and separate Not abandon self, not abandon ourselves but also we can disagree and separate and do it in a healthy way, with healthy communication, hopefully right.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: If that is modeled in one of the biggest upheavals of anyone's life, then like what a great model for all the other things.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So I want them to have a healthy sense of self.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I want them to know that they, too, get to make choices that are difficult in their lives, that they, too, get to center and value their own experience, not in a narcissistic way.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Right, not as a victim Right, but in an empowered way.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: In an empowered way I can, I will, I do.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, yeah, yeah.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: So I think that's yeah, that's tops for me.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you have some secret sauce right for how you help your coaching clients step into that, valuing themselves and teaching their children that they're valued.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Anything stand out to you about how you approach that with women?
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most important things that we lose along the way is our connection to our sense of self and who we are.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: And I think there are so many things stacked against us as women, right, that we are supposed to sacrifice ourselves.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: We are supposed to.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Our happiness doesn't matter.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: We have to put our kids above and beyond ourselves.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: We put our spouses' needs first.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: We just cater to everybody until we hit a wall and we just can't anymore.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Lost, yeah, and we're so lost and we have no idea who we are and we don't even know why.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: You know, and so, reconnecting with that and also you know, from a cultural perspective, women's intuition is one of the most powerful things that we possess and it's real, like it's actually real.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: There are studies that have been done about this and women's intuition.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: We do have a greater sense of intuition.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: We do Men have better problem solving skills that's real too but our intuition is very strong and important.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: It's a gift to the world.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: It is, it's a gift, it's what keeps us alive, it's what keeps our children alive.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I mean when our babies are crying.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: that's right and we know what it is that's wrong with them, because of our intuition, like that matters and it keeps yeah, it keeps our children alive and it's powerful and it's also one of the biggest threats to a patriarchy and it's one of you know, entire systems have been developed to suppress it, right?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: I mean the 60, oh, more than $60 billion diet industrial complex is designed around you, not having a connection with your hunger and fullness cues.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: That's right, right.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Every diet you've ever been on has told you that you're not hungry, you're just thirsty.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: You can't trust yourself.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Yep, you can't trust yourself.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Right, so you know.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: And then we wonder why we're so, why we have such, you know, rates of obesity and eating disorders, and blah blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Right, Like, yeah, so our, so that these systems that.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: And then right, and then we have to buy things in order to buy our sick solution.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: So reconnecting with that, with our intuition sitting in that quiet space of what do I want, what do I need?
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: How do I need to nurture myself?
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: What do I need from a partner?
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Right, I mean, we lose this in so many aspects.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Our sexuality, women's sexuality, is like a whole complex map of like ecstasy and creation and all of this stuff, and we lose touch with it.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Because, you know, for men it's a different, like they just go in and like wham, wham, wham, wham, wham and we're done.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: And I think they're intimidated by our sexuality, they're confused by it.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: They certainly don't do a whole lot of work to try and understand it.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: So there, like I said, lots of ways in which we disconnect and we just disconnect and we disconnect.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: And become performative rather than intuitive.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: We just disconnect, and we disconnect and become performative rather than intuitive Absolutely.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: And so look, I think, the more that we lean into this intuition and dropping into ourselves which can be scary and confusing really hard.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: How often do we get the question is it anxiety or is it intuition?
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Right, it is.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: It's confusing, yeah, and how do you walk that path?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Right, but it takes practice.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes practice and it takes quiet and it takes turning in and space and all of those things, and it is a radical act of rebellion for a woman.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: To do that Right For us to reconnect with our intuition, we're going up against Our power.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Our power.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: We're going up against all of these systems that were created to shut us down.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: So it's yeah, that's our greatest, greatest thing that we can for ourselves and then to be able to teach our children, To sit with your kids at dinner and have them say my belly feels full and to go okay, yeah, Okay, that's right, Okay, It'll be here when you're.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're hungry later, I'll save it for you and you can have some more later.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: We experienced that so much in this family, where she'll say she's not hungry or she'll say her stomach hurts and she tends to experience emotions in a somatic complaint right, so her stomach will ache and she can.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Now, as a 10-year-old, she can tell you I have a tummy ache and it's emotional, I have a tummy ache and it's food.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: She can now tell the difference.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah Right, absolutely Right.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, that's the thing it's like.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: What a gift you're giving your daughter she now can.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: She can turn inward and go.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: It's this not that I'm sorry.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: What Gen X woman can do that?
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I don't think any that I know of you know, unless they've spent, you know, decades in meditation or whatever.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: But it's like to be raised with that.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: That's fucking gorgeous, valuable, yeah.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: So, ps, you and I just get like all the A pluses on this interview, because you already answered now question number five, which was I'm just going to right, but you've already said it which is we all love a little rebellion, mm-hmm, yeah, mm-hmm.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: What's a rebellious act, big or small, you've encouraged someone to take during divorce that they let her thank you for?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: But this is it right?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: The act of rebellion is to reclaim one's power.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Do you want to add one another act of rebellion?
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Well, I think, you know, during divorce, it's an act of rebellion for us to fight for what is well, I think, asking for asking, I don't say asking, yeah, saying that you want a divorce and that you are done is the deciding active rebellion.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Deciding is the actor is an active rebellion because women don't make decisions.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: We wait for boys, little boys, to ask us to dance at the school dance.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: We wait for men to ask us on dates.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: We wait for men to ask us to propose to marry them, right, and then we're like're like, oh, and actually I now I get to choose.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: So a woman choosing is a radical act of rebellion as well.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: we're good at this, okay you alluded to this earlier, right?
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Well, you didn't allude to it.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: You talked about it, about loss of identity, right, loss of sense of self, and there's so much grief in a divorce process.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: There's grieving an identity, there's grieving a community, grieving a dream, grieving a relationship right, grieving so many things.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: What's the most, from your experience right, and this is again you've talked to so many people over the years From your experience, what's the most overlooked type of grief in the divorce process?
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: type of grief in the divorce process?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, grieving the loss of the dream.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Right, we had a vision for our lives and we didn't get that, and so there's the grief of the loss of that dream.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know that that's overlooked.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: There's also, I think, the grieving of even if the marriage was terrible, you still get to grieve it, right, and sometimes we're like what I hear most often is I wanted this, why am I so sad?
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: I'm the one who wanted this.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Why am who wanted this?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: yeah, that's a sexy answer, right, and I'm like because you never wanted this no no one wanted relief.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: She wanted relief.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: You didn't want a divorce yeah, so that's, that's, yeah, so all she wanted was for things to be better.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: That's all she wanted.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's all we do want is we want, you know?
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: This is why we don't leave.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Right, the whole thing is well.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Why didn't you leave?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: It was so bad.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Why didn't you leave?
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Because I didn't want to leave.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't want the marriage to end.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I just wanted the relationship to get better.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Partnership, mm-hmm, no-transcript, and I've talked to a lot of women over the years who made a decision and then got wobbly on it for that exact reason?
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: because they didn't want a divorce right.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: They wanted relief and they couldn't find a path to relief.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: I think that's beautiful and also one of the things that becomes so confusing and I experience this, and I think a lot of people experience this is when you, when you start, when you kind of take this is the way my ex-husband put it and I think it was perfect.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I quote him a lot because he has a way of putting things that really works.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: He said you know, we started getting along really, really, really well after we decided we were going to get divorced Interesting.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: And we fought like cats and dogs.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I think what?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: And it can happen.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: It may not be typical, but it can happen a lot where?
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, should we reconsider this?
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Like what we're we?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Suddenly we can get along.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, if we can actually get along, what are we doing?
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: And he said, kate, we're getting along because we finally took getting our emotional needs needs met from each other off the table.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Now we know that's a done deal.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: We can just be great friends.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Right and I think he was right you know, that I think for the most part he stopped trying to get his bottomless pit of emotional needs met from me Because I was over it, you know.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: But yeah, absolutely, and I was done trying to get him to.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: You know, treat me like a, you know, valid human being, Mm-hmm.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so I think that's a that can be really confusing for people.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: I think there's something we've talked about it right, but there's something else in there about if you chose it, if you're the one that filed because we know, statistically, women file more often than men right Much, much more.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Where society says if you chose this, what are you upset about?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Right, that's right.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: And then it feels like there's less permission or space to grieve, whether it's from family or whoever.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Right Like that's right.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Well, if you're so upset about it.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: I thought this was what you wanted.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's not.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: It's not what any of us wanted.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: This is why you don't take divorce advice from people who have never been divorced or gone through the process.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Or like you know like or is not a professional in it, because nobody who's gone through it will ever say to you well, if you're so upset, like if you're so upset, why don't you just like not do it?
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Nobody would say that.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I have seen plenty of men bitter men on Facebook say shit like that, but like who have been through divorce right, and they're just bitter about said divorce.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Well, there's that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll post it on any thing anywhere, anywhere they can type words, Listen.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, listen right.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Or the ones who are, like you know, running programs to keep her after she says, like, like they're divorce busters or something that are, like you know, 10 steps to get your wife to, yeah, not divorce you.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Yes 10 steps to not divorce you.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, ten steps to coerce a woman who has made choice.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, tell us about your book.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, thanks for asking my book.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: It's called the D Word Making the Ultimate Decision.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: About your Marriage and it's about making the decision.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: It's really the what I hope to be is.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: It says on the back, the D word is the definitive yet accessible guide for everyone who wants to take control of their lives, either by ending or repairing their marriage.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, really, it's about making the decision, for women making the decision, and it's great.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: It's great I put everything that I've ever learned or thought into this book.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's saying something, kate.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I tried, I tried.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: It was a lot, so I would imagine that it's a fantastic guide on decision making in general, then yeah, you know what it probably is.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: It probably is because it really is about reconnecting with the self right.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Who are you asking?
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Who's making this decision?
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Um, but it's also sort of a feminist manifesto, because it I really talk about why it's so hard for women to make these decisions, why it's so hard for women to stand in their power.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: I also break down a lot about abuse.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: You know, like the different forms of abuse, because I think a lot of people don't realize like oh, that's actually oh, look at that.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, like you know sexual abuse right that there are in 30 states, 30 out of 50.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Still laws on the books.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: It is perfectly legal to rape your wife if you don't have to use physical force.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: So if she's asleep, you know it's totally fine.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: She doesn't have to consent to anything legally.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: So I have a chapter on what if they're an addict or mentally ill?
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Are they a cheater?
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Is he a cheater or a sex addict?
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: So the you know the differences between that, and then I go through, like how does divorce even work?
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Like what?
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Because we want to know right, Like before we go through it, like, uh, I don't know.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Like what, what is it?
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: How does?
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: How does spousal support work?
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: How does child support?
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: So, before you make these decisions, there are a lot of things to consider, and so I try to lay out as much of that as possible in the book.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: So something I think you do particularly well and I've always admired is your capacity to break down in this sort of feminist context right, what abuse is what it looks like?
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: How to stand up to it, how to break that cycle, but not from a place of victimization, yeah, not from a place of getting stuck in it and letting it justify the downward spiral, right?
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about that from your experience?
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: In the very first opening story you told us about, you got this negative feedback right and you took your own inventory and you grew from it right.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but talk to us just a little bit about, okay, we can define abuse.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: It's an essential part of breaking free right and being able to trust oneself.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: How do we define abuse?
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Name it, identify that.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: That's been my lived experience and then not let it make me small or keep me small.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Maybe keep me small, maybe keep me smaller is better, right.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting, I think one of the I think the first step in all of this is actually to acknowledge the victimization, because we are so gaslit into believing that there's something that we're not doing that's causing it to happen.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: And so I think it's actually really so.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: We're like betting ourselves into pretzels.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: There's like a moving target and we're constantly trying to hit it.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Well, if you just maybe got a boob job, I would be more attracted to you.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: If you lost 15 pounds, I wouldn't have to cheat, like all of these things.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: And so we're like okay, okay, okay.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: And we're twisting ourselves around and to abandon that and go you know what.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Actually, there's nothing that I'm doing can stop this, and nothing I'm doing is causing this.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Right, I didn't cause it, I cannot control it.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm, right, I didn't cause it, I cannot control it.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: And so there's something about acknowledging being a victim that is actually really empowering, because you're kind of going oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, I didn't do this, I didn't do this, this is being done to me, and if I can't, if I can't stop it, if there is nothing I can actually do to like, hit that target, because it will always move.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: And that's like it will always move.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Then I actually have, then I have, then I actually have, then I have.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Essentially, I have the power to make it stop by opting out, but I see so many women go to what's wrong with me, that I, rather than stepping into their power.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and I also think that's a process right, I think that's part of the process.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: What's wrong with me that I, and look, here's what's wrong with you.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: You were raised in a patriarchy To believe that there's something wrong with you.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: You were raised right.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: You were raised in a society that teaches you to believe there's something always wrong with you and that men have more power than women, and probably a bunch of your relations.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: So I believe in twofold right.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: I believe that we all have our relationship blueprints that brought us to this point and that we can take responsibility for that.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: We can take responsibility for why do I choose these people, right?
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Why do I choose these people?
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, I was raised by an abusive father.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: My mother was a drug addict.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: You know, this is not my story.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying right Like whatever, whatever, whatever whatever brought us to this point, and so, therefore, I tend to I, from my earliest years, conflated love with rejection, because the person who was supposed to love me rejected me, and so I attached those two things in my infant brain so good.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: And so, as an adult, it is my responsibility to disconnect those things and go.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Oh wait, rejection isn't love.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: What is love?
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: What is love Truly?
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: This is not that, and so when we reflect on that, we can take responsibility, right, we can look at that.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: So, yes, I think the question of you know what's wrong with me, if we flip it around a little bit, it's not what's wrong with me, but what happened to me, that I grew up to be the kind of person that would make these choices.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: And also, by the way, sometimes absolutely nothing.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Sometimes abusers.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Abusers love really powerful and awesome people.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: They're way more fun to bring down.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: So it depends on the type of abuse that you might be experiencing.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: It depends on the type of relationship conflict, whether there's abuse or not.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Right, if you are being abused by someone who's more of like a sociopath, absolutely nothing, because they completely masked who they were and they drew you in and it was a whole game.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: It was a whole con.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's not your fault.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you have a generation of women, and that's not your fault.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when you have a generation of women, generations of women who are cut off from their intuition, right, right.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: How am I supposed?
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: to recognize those red flags.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, it all comes back to that.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it does, that's right.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: And so the power is okay.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: How did I get here?
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: How did I get here?
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: What happened?
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: And so, rather than what's wrong with me, how did I get here might give you some kernels and nuggets of power and as we heal each of those little nuggets that kind of comes up through the process, this relationship stops fitting us.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: It just, you know, I remember when we were in couples therapy and our couples therapist I wanted to go to individual therapy, and our couples therapist said you know, individual therapy kills relationships.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: And I was like what?
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: And so I went to individual therapy and it was through healing my childhood, my wounding through my infant brain was the leader of the pack.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: You know, I was.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: I was a hundred percent in my infant brain all the time, all the time, and through my individual therapy I learned to get my adult brain online and my critical thinking and my prefrontal cortex and all of those pieces that were able to discern came online.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: And then I decided to get a divorce.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Did individual therapy kill my marriage?
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: No, no, no.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Individual therapy healed me, that's right so that my marriage no longer worked for me and I and I understood why.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, and there are occasions right where two people can go through that process together and separately both and it still works.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: And then very often there's one in my experience right working with couples that very often one of them does not want to go to the depths of that sort of transformative process.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: You know, and I think relationships and marriages, long-term relationships, are such fertile ground for discovery and growth.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: But if your partner isn't, as invested as you are in that, I think that necessarily becomes a deal breaker.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: I think that that's one of I don't want to say one of the only right, because abuse obviously, but it's like if you've got someone who's willing to take their own inventory and be in that transformative process, like what can't you tackle?
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: You know Right right Now.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Right, I was married to somebody who was really willing to do his inventory.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: He was, you know, he was a sober person.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: He had been, you know, doing a lot of his own work for many, many, many years, but he also he was also, you know, a serial cheater, a love and sex addict, and wasn't doing that work.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: So maybe that's you know, that's it, wasn't doing that work, that's it.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Well, and I always said it was actually that was part of the gaslighting, because he would sort of cop to like the front 5%, almost Like he'd be like no, no, that's something I really have to work on.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: You're right, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to talk to my therapist about that.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I'm going to talk off the hook, and then the behaviors would continue, these deeply rooted, yeah, yeah.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, wow, wow, tell our listeners if they want to find you right, where would you have them start first?
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Like, start here, is it with your book, with podcast, something else?
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: The?
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: podcast the book.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Those would be great places, I do.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: There is an audio version of the book because obviously it's not the kind of book that you have on your nightstand when you're married, and if you do, you can put it in a cover.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Uh although I don't have a client whose spouse, whose husband, saw the fake cover and decided to look what was under it.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Um, so, anyway, um, yeah, everything is on my website.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: It's kateanthonycom and the podcast is the Divorce Survival Guide podcast, and that's in all podcast platforms, and the book is anywhere books are sold and yeah, all the links are on my website, though.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Love it, and we'll put it all in the show notes, obviously.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here, for sharing your wisdom.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: You are just such a gift to the world and to us, to our listeners Like thank you, thank you, thank you for teaching us all how to be the most powerful version of ourselves.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me, Dawn.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: I love talking to you.