Latest / The Hypnotist / Guest Hypnotist Dale Turnbull on Metaphors of Movement

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Guest Hypnotist Dale Turnbull on Metaphors of Movement · The Hypnotist

0:05
Welcome to The Hypnotist, the show that gives you inside
0:09
access to cutting edge hypnosis with real clients facing.
0:12
Genuine issues. Brought to you by the
0:14
hypnotherapist. Demanded by celebrities, CEOs
0:18
and even royalty. Adam Cox.
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These recordings took place live from Adam's clinic.
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In London's world famous Harley. Street So get yourself
0:30
comfortable and enjoy today's episode of The Hypnotist.
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Hi, it's Adam here and you're about to listen to a hypnosis
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interview. This isn't a hypnosis session.
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This is where I'm interviewing a very respected and well renowned
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hypnotherapist called Dale Turnbull.
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And Dale was originally from southwest London, now lives in
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Canada, and he's one of the leading experts on metaphor, but
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secifically the movement of metaphor.
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And it uses the metaphor that the client resents to explore
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that and to change the context and to create really owerful
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changes. So I have a nice chat with Dale,
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what we explore, what are the metaphors that really shape our
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life, about who we are, about what life is about, about what
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can be empowering or disempowering.
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And I pick his brains about some of the most empowering and
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disempowering metaphors that he's discovered.
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He also shares a a few of his upcoming events.
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He's got lots of different trainings and events that he's
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organizing. We're both going to be at
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Hypnote Thoughts live in Vegas in the summer and also at the UK
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Hypnosis Conference in London in November, so if you want to see
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us both live, you certainly can do either in Vegas or in London
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this year. He also does a nice experiment,
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a way of thinking. So it's a thought experiment
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asking you think about a relationship that isn't quite
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ideal. Maybe it's a friend that you've
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fallen out with, maybe some kind of issue, a colleague that
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you're not quite gelling with. And the way that you think about
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how you think about that person, you might be able to experience
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quite a interesting change. OK.
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Now, I would encourage you to find a nice, cozy place.
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This is the kind of thing that you don't need your eyes closed.
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You can just have it on the background.
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Listen to our conversation. So just relax and enjoy this
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conversation. Hi, it's Adam here.
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And welcome to the hypnotist. Only today I'm not your
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hypnotist. We have a guest hypnotist, and
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I'm joined by Dale Turnbull. Welcome to the show.
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Thanks for inviting me, great to be here.
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Good to have you here. And one of the questions I
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always like to ask because everyone's story is a little bit
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different, is there's normally something that's the catalyst
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that someone is normal everyday person.
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And then they kind of discover this world we call hypnosis.
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And once they get in, they can't quite get out of that place.
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So tell us your story. How did you become a
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hypnotherapist? So yeah, so from my side, it's
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probably a little bit different. I, I, I went in through the
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route of NLP, but where I sort of started off, I mean, I'd
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always sort of had a bit of an interest within psychology.
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I mean, I loved watching Paul McKenna on TV and my mum's like,
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you're never going to learn hypnosis.
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And I know it's just sort of always been there.
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I wanted to be a psychotherapist but didn't study hard enough.
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But I ended up in, in the corporate sphere in learning and
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development, specifically working with recruiters,
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training them to be the best they could be.
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But I started to get really frustrated.
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I don't know if you've ever had this experience where you tell
3:47
someone to do something once, twice, three times, and they
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just don't freaking do it, you know?
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And you're like, why are you not doing it?
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You're not motivated, You've not got the skill.
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So for me, I was looking to see how I could enhance my
4:00
communication to impact people because it's really
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disempowering. I think if you're like, well,
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they're not doing it because that's putting the
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responsibility on to them. So I started to learn Myers
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Briggs personality and I started to tailor my experience that
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way. But there was one guy who came
4:19
in an external trainer for those of you football fans out there,
4:22
he was the educational psychologist for Leicester City
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and he helped them win the Premiership.
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And when I was talking to him I was like, what is this guy
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doing? He's doing something very
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different than I'd never seen before.
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And it's like, well, to be honest, I studied sports
4:37
psychology, but once I decided to learn NLP, then my whole
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world changed. So I'm like, I'm going to
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invest. I jumped all in.
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I studied from John Grinder, Richard Bandler, the creators of
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NLP. And for me it was really about
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how do you tailor your experience?
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How do you tailor your communication?
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So not one does it resonate with the person, with their frame,
5:00
with their map of the world, with what's going on inside
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them, But also how can you do it to increase skill acquisition
5:06
knowledge specifically within the training and development
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space. Now from there, obviously when
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you when you first do hypnosis or NLP, you're like, Oh my God,
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there's so many things you can do with this.
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So I started to play about helping people with like fear of
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the phone because it was phone based stuff.
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I actually worked with somebody who was dyslexic.
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It was really quite a strange example, which really opened my
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eyes because I was like, OK, so how are you doing the dyslexia?
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What happens? And she's like, well I read it,
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which is fine, but then if I don't understand it, I read it
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again and all the words jumble up.
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Essentially she started to get really stressed when she started
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reading and then all the the letters went everywhere.
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So we did some NLP slash hypnosis to basically, as
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opposed to when she read it and didn't understand, she went into
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a more relaxed place and she could actually read to her
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child. And I'm like, wow, it just
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opened up a whole new world of possibility.
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So since then I've been learning lots of different things, trying
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to find out, OK, what are the tools that I can gather that can
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really make the difference? And this is where I stumbled
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onto the metaphors of movement work, which I teach and I'm
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really passionate about because I think for me, there are two
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different types of people who get into the world of personal
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change. There are those like me who
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really want to make an impact and really impact people and
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come from actually other focused.
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And then the the other side, you've got people who are more
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into their own personal development, their own growth,
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and then they realise, oh, I can do this with other people.
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So yeah, I've, I've always sort of struggled to self respect,
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introspect, do the work on myself, loved working with
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others, but struggled to work on myself and the metaphors work,
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which I found was a really nice bridge and a gap that really
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helped for me to actually look at myself in a very non
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confrontational way to understand actually what's going
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on inside. Because half the time I just
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don't have the words. So that's a little bit of a
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flavour of what I am, where I've come from and where I'm at now.
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And I think where I really resonate is that NLP is my kind
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of on ramp to hypnosis in the early Bandler and Grinder, you
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know, books, Structure of Magic and Frogs and Princess.
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And what I've noticed is that NLP is that kind of move into
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hypnosis. There tends to be a part of NLP
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that really kind of resonates with them more.
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And sometimes it's the linguistic patterns and
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sometimes, like me, it was, I got fascinated with the
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submodalities of, you know, how's this different from this?
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Is it bigger, smaller, brighter, all of that kind of stuff?
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And sometimes it's the techniques or the, you know, the
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eye movements. Was there anything that kind of
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really grabbed you when you kind of first started learning about
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NLP and you're like, wow, this seems like magic?
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I think for me it was just the ability to see change.
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I mean, when I thought I, I tell a story that when I went to my
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first NLP training, it was actually in Portugal, two weeks.
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It was really great, super fun. But when I arrived, I'm like,
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everybody's a mess because they're like, they're all coming
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to work on themselves. And I was just really clueless.
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But what I found is it it allowed me to shift a lot of
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different things. And so when I studied hypnosis,
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I actually studied something called alchemical hypnosis from
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a trainer called David Quigley. And he, he works, it's a little
8:18
bit weird. So when I did NLPI then did like
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a little bit of a course on shamanism and then I did
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alchemical hypnosis, they all sort of blended together.
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But for him, his approach, it's got some spiritual aspects to
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it, but it's got aspects of shamanism, that kind of thing.
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And I think for me, one of the things that really opened my
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eyes regarding hypnosis was actually taught to me on a, on a
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Richard Banda course. I'm an Italian gentleman.
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I can't remember his name, but it was really fascinating.
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So there's a there's a pattern some of you may be familiar with
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called the Betty Erickson pattern.
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The Betty Erickson pattern you essentially pace someone's
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sensory experience. So like 3 things you see, three
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things you hear, three things you feel, and then you go 2 and
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then you go one. Now, normally when hypnosis, we
9:04
think about bringing people into a more relaxed place that's like
9:08
stereotypical hypnosis one O 1. But you can do those things.
9:13
You can do these hypnotic patterns to impact emotional
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states. So you can say, I don't know,
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you're at a funfair and you see all the bright shiny things.
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There's lots going on. There's flashes, there's buzzes
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and you hear the buzzes and there's like children laughing
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and stroking and you start to feel the excitement of being
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there in that place. Your heart's dumping.
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You're looking at what do I do first?
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There's just so much color. I just can't focus.
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And then just something spoke to me and said, I'm going to pick
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that and I jump right in. So you can use these hypnotic
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things not only to get people into a nice relaxed, calming
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place, but you can use these things to help people shift
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states, shift ways of being. And I think this is where when
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we connected on the more metaphorical side, it's how can
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we utilise hypnosis, stories, metaphors, NLP to give people a
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framework, the aids in change. Because I think anyone who comes
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to us wanting help, they want help.
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So how can we set them up for success through metaphorical
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storytelling and all these different aspects.
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And for me, it's really about what is the difference that
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makes the difference? How can I make that impact and
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how can I make it specific to that person?
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Yeah. And I guess where metaphors
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overlap with NLP is that phrase, the map is not the territory and
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everyone's operating from these kind of internal models.
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And a good metaphor is a representation not of the actual
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territory, but of the map. They're kind of saying, you
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know, life's like a game, you know, or it's not a dress
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rehearsal. Like there's, there's a
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presupposition of an unconscious metaphor that they're running.
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And once you can utilize that metaphor, there's a lot that you
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can kind of do within the structure that's already there.
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And I think where myself and and you really kind of agree on is
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that it's better to utilize the preexisting metaphor that the
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client is already running than just assume that the Caterpillar
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turning into the butterfly is the perfect metaphor for them.
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Why not look for the metaphor that they're already?
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That's how they already perceive things. 100% So I mean for
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example, the idea of feeling like you have to perform.
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Now when you say that, I mean what image comes to mind?
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Some people it might be a stage, some people it might be an
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auditorium, some people are gladiatorial arena.
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But when someone's trying to perform, they're putting on a
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show, they're playing a role, They're not necessarily being
11:37
themselves, They're putting on a play.
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Who wrote the play? Who wrote the script?
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What character are you playing in this moment?
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Are the audience there? Are they watching you?
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Are all eyes on you? We can look at communicating
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that experience so people feel really understood.
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When you said the map is not the territory, The way I think both
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you and I work to an extent is the map is not the territory.
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But we know what maps have. Maps have hills, they have
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valleys, so we can talk about those things.
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Maps have specific locations, they have grid references, they
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have paths, they have rows. So as much as you don't know
12:13
what the map is of the client, you can communicate the aspects
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that maps have and those things will resonate.
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And that's why I was really impressed with your training on
12:24
the hypnotic loops. And I know you're doing that
12:26
hypno thoughts. So I think I'm actually going to
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come along. It's going to be great.
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One of the things for me is what are the generalizations?
12:33
What is the psychoeducation of human experience?
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What are facts of human life? We have, for example, introvert,
12:39
extrovert. We have people who are more
12:41
thinking and more emotional. Now, if we're coaches,
12:44
therapists and change workers and we understand these, I don't
12:49
want to say they're proven facts because they don't like being as
12:51
concrete. But if we were to say that these
12:53
generalizations fit the vast majority of the populace, we can
12:57
use these understand understood prison supports to not only help
13:02
the client change, but to educate them about human
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experience. Absolutely.
13:08
And I think what what I really got from the idea of kind of
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maps not being the territory is that something doesn't have to
13:16
be an exact replica for it to be useful.
13:20
You know, you're originally from London.
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I live northwest London. Everyone that's been to London
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has seen the map of the London Underground, and it does nothing
13:30
to the actual dimensions of where any of those locations
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are. But that doesn't mean it isn't
13:36
very useful to find your way around London.
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And I think sometimes if someone has that kind of metaphor,
13:45
whatever that metaphor, you know, it's kind of like, I can't
13:47
get past it if they're procrastinating or, you know,
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it's, it's kind of some people really feel like stress is like
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a sword of Damocles hanging over their head.
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They've, they've got these kind of things and it has
13:59
connotations. Sometimes there's life or death
14:02
connotations to something, which is not that important.
14:06
But if it's framed that way, it can kind of create a lot of
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pressure, a lot of stress on them because that's the, that's
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the lens, that's the metaphor that they're running with that,
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with that thing. And, and I, I believe that a lot
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of people, it's not like hypnosis is something they do
14:23
when they see a hypnotist, they're already experiencing a
14:26
form of hypnosis. Their own metaphors are a form
14:29
of trance in which that's how they start perceiving the world.
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And sometimes what we're doing is just adjusting or changing
14:36
the metaphors that they're already living with.
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And that can make a radical difference in their life. 100%
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And I think one of the things I mean, I always like to play a
14:46
little bit of devil's advocate, bit of a mismatcher for those
14:49
who know metaprograms. But what's interesting for me,
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so you're like for some people it's a matter of life or death.
14:55
Now that could be imagined. It could like a phobia is a very
14:59
typical example. However, one of the things that
15:04
I think sometimes is a challenge within coaching and hypnosis or
15:07
therapy is there's an expectation that life will be
15:11
better straight away. Now, for some people, life will
15:16
get worse with change. For example, let's just imagine
15:21
someone's really unhappy in their marriage or whatever and
15:23
they don't really want to work on it, but they're financially
15:26
reliant on their partner, for example.
15:29
If they make a choice that split, there will be problems,
15:34
there will be challenges, there will be issues, and sometimes
15:37
life will actually get worse before it gets better.
15:41
And I think this is where some of the metaphors of movement
15:44
work can be useful because it really looks at what's the
15:47
unconscious structure under the surface and, and we can just
15:50
have a conversation about these things because I think that
15:54
there is often this sort of painted picture of everything's
15:56
going to be great, everything's going to be beautiful.
15:58
But like for example, clients that don't change, they might
16:02
have a want to change, but the change or the consequences of
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the change might be more painful.
16:09
For example, I've been doing a lot of work on myself and
16:11
business and I need to be more of a man.
16:15
I need to take more responsibility.
16:17
I need to be the strong one. I need to just do it at.
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But that, that's in certain contexts, obviously, but there
16:25
are challenges there that we need to face.
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And a lot of people either aren't willing to do the change
16:29
to get the thing. And being able to speak to these
16:32
things I think can be quite empowering because yeah, life is
16:36
not always positive or sun shining.
16:39
But some things do take time and transition to change.
16:42
And longer term it will be better, but the shorter term
16:46
still might be a fair bit of work.
16:48
And I think that's sometimes things that people struggle to
16:50
conceptualise. Yeah, So I've, I've seen some of
16:54
your presentations at the at the conferences and you're really
16:57
good at not looking at a metaphor in the superficial, but
17:01
really going into detail and looking at, OK, what does that
17:05
metaphor mean? So I know for a fact that one of
17:09
my meta metaphors is that I look at life like a game.
17:13
And one of my favorite beliefs is that you either win or you
17:16
learn because that's what happens in a game.
17:19
And, you know, lots of my kind of ways of thinking, I'm quite
17:23
competitive. You know, most games have rules,
17:26
all of these kind of things. But I'm curious because you're
17:28
very good at delving into these metaphors.
17:31
If you were to look at what's the benefits and also the
17:35
problems of someone having like life as a game, as a, as a kind
17:40
of a broad metaphor, what would you, where does your mind take
17:44
you on something like that? OK, so I just want to give a
17:47
quick pre frame before I I start to go into this.
17:51
And so when we have meta metaphors in life or like
17:56
broader concepts. So for example, for me life is
17:58
an adventure that's like one of my things.
18:01
So if we have life as a game, I'm not going to interpret what
18:04
that means. But what I am going to do is use
18:07
a very specific type of language called idiomatic communication.
18:12
And what idiomatic communication is, It's communication that has
18:18
meaning, but it doesn't have meaning at the same time.
18:20
For example, if I was to say love to anyone in the audience,
18:23
you would have a different meaning to what love is for you
18:26
than it is for me. But for example, life is a game.
18:30
It's win or lose. That's idiomatic.
18:33
That's just understood. You get what that means.
18:35
I get what that means. We don't need to communicate it.
18:38
We just deeply understand it. And for me, why this is so
18:42
important is because I'm not telling you what things mean.
18:44
Because a lot of the time, or sometimes in hypnosis, or if
18:46
you've ever been on a course and somebody's tried to give you a
18:49
suggestion that doesn't fit, it's like it's because it
18:52
doesn't resonate with what's going on on the surface.
18:55
So if you look, life is a game, so it's win or lose.
18:58
It could be said you like to play, you like to be playful.
19:03
However, if you were to play a lot and you were to lose a lot,
19:06
you might feel defeated, you might not want to play.
19:11
Now, there's certain strategies in playing a game, so you might
19:15
learn up, you might read up on the strategies you appreciate.
19:18
A good game takes practice. And if you think about business,
19:21
I mean, even if we look at your background, Adam, I mean, I've
19:24
started to try and do mine a bit better, but you've got the
19:26
lighting that they say to put to create the difference in things.
19:30
It looks really professional. You have played with the things
19:34
in order to make it work. However, there is also a winner
19:38
and there is a loser. So looking at those things, it
19:42
could be said that some things are black and white.
19:43
It's one way or the other. So it could be that there's a
19:46
preference to having that in life.
19:49
Now, if we're to look at that as a even broader perspective, if
19:53
it's win or lose, it's black or white.
19:54
It's one thing or the other. The Shades of Grey in the middle
19:57
might be a bit harder to comprehend, however.
20:02
Hypnosis has got Shades of Grey, so maybe you've started to learn
20:05
those grey zones. So if we look at it from a
20:07
personality profile, you've got people who are more sensing,
20:11
which is views Myers Briggs like sensing, which is more like it's
20:15
a picture on the wall. It is a picture with a boat on
20:18
it. Whereas you've got sensing and
20:20
intuitive. Intuitive is more like, well,
20:22
it's, it's a journey that someone's going on.
20:24
It's a more intuitive thing. So if I was to look at that, I
20:27
would say you're probably a little bit more literal with
20:29
what works, what doesn't, one or the other.
20:31
And similarly in your practice, I'm sure that you go through
20:35
methods to look at what works, what doesn't work, exclude,
20:38
exclude. So there's a lot of things that
20:42
are beneficial about that. Now we can take that into
20:44
broader context. Some people have life as a
20:46
journey. For you, it's winning or losing.
20:49
So we've got different metaphors for life and we've got different
20:53
metaphors for business. So if business is win or lose,
20:57
that also has certain things you can't stop playing because if
21:01
you do stop playing, you're you've lost.
21:05
You know, there's the whole thing in personal development.
21:08
You haven't failed unless you give up, which comes to that
21:11
one. That's interesting, but I
21:13
remember seeing a talk by Simon Sinek, who is known for his kind
21:17
of power of why Ted X talk and he had a book called The
21:20
Infinite Game. And that really resonated
21:23
because what he was saying is, is that in some context, the
21:27
people that are unwilling to lose under any circumstances
21:31
will always have the edge over someone that is, you know, have
21:37
a fixed time horizon. And I think he used the the
21:43
soldiers in the Vietnam War, like, you know, US politics will
21:47
have a certain kind of appetite for a length of time.
21:49
But the people who were there, it's like, you know, they were
21:53
willing for this to go on forever.
21:55
And that was their kind of time horizon.
21:57
So I, I do think that I do have because I grew up playing lots
22:01
of video games, board games. There is this kind of
22:03
gamification, you know, that I look at of, of life and it's
22:07
kind of like, OK, well, you know, find someone who plays the
22:10
game really well and you can learn a lot from them.
22:12
That would be like NLP modeling. But then that infinite game, I
22:16
think expanded my metaphor because it's kind of like, what
22:21
if there's a game and the goal isn't to win, but to level up
22:26
and you can never really win the game.
22:27
All you can do is kind of get to the next level.
22:29
So it's like an infinite computer game that you level up.
22:32
Well, then, then it isn't win or lose.
22:35
Then actually the, the kind of the, the model of thinking is
22:40
progress, you know, learn, you know, get to the next level,
22:44
never expecting to win, but always expecting to kind of, you
22:48
know, as I say, win or learn. So that's the great thing with
22:51
these metaphors is that, you know, there's so much nuance and
22:54
kind of subtlety that you can kind of evolve the metaphor,
22:57
particularly if like we do like we know about metaphors.
23:00
So once you have that kind of awareness of the own your own
23:04
metaphors that you're running, you can kind of you can kind of
23:07
tweak them and amend them to make them less disempowering and
23:09
more empowering. 100% And I think what's interesting about
23:13
the example you've given, I've never considered it that way.
23:15
So if I would say what's your life like and we would say it's
23:19
like a game, what's that like? Now if someone was to play
23:22
chess, that was their game. That's what it's like.
23:24
That's very different to what you've described, which is more
23:27
like a computer game. It is a continuation.
23:30
One of the other things to consider as a potential coping
23:34
mechanism. I know I have this a little bit.
23:36
If I feel like I'm not winning, I play games on my phone because
23:41
then they can win. So.
23:44
So it's interesting to look at some of these things and how
23:47
they can cross over and how they can map.
23:49
But yeah, it's interesting to look at the also like for
23:52
example, my stepson, he's quite competitive and things like
23:57
that, and he's had this big thing about winning and we're
24:00
looking to get him to be more collaborative.
24:02
So we've got games where we all play together to beat the game.
24:06
So it's a slightly different dynamic.
24:08
So there's a lot of different games out there and I really
24:11
appreciate you sharing your perspective on games.
24:14
So yeah, so if you had game as a metaphor, what specific comes to
24:18
mind as an image as that game would be interesting to explore?
24:22
Yeah, I think, I think for me it is, it is kind of computer games
24:26
and the idea of, you know, I grew up with computer magazines
24:30
where they had cheat codes. So like, you know, and I think
24:33
that's partly why I was interested in kind of hypnosis
24:35
and NLP because it felt like a cheat code for life, you know,
24:39
and you know, sometimes you'd have little side quests and, you
24:42
know, hidden rooms and and I think sometimes, you know, I've
24:46
got a big project, but I'll, I'll start a new project, you
24:50
know, to kind of give some kind of stimulation.
24:52
So, you know, I think, I think it's, it's a, it's a fairly
24:57
multi layered kind of metaphor. And yeah, I, I, I guess the
25:02
downside would be if you, if you had the metaphor of, you know,
25:07
life is a game. Like one of my belief systems,
25:10
having worked with so many clients, is that if people, if
25:15
the game is unwinnable, people don't want to play.
25:16
And that would be almost, you know, a parallel for learned
25:20
helplessness. And you see that a lot, you
25:22
know, if people are in a relationship and it's deeply
25:24
unfulfilling, they kind of psychologically check out.
25:27
Or if they can never get a promotion in their workplace,
25:29
they kind of they just turn up and do the bare minimum.
25:32
And I think that's where that's where there's kind of like a
25:35
negative side that if you feel like you're trapped in a game
25:38
that you can't escape, but you can never win the game, what
25:42
most people would do in a situation like that is just, you
25:45
know, psychologically check out or, you know, throw a tantrum.
25:48
If you think about the game metaphor, they switch off.
25:52
Yeah, I do. That's it.
25:53
I unplug, but if you think about so I always look to look at the
25:57
pros and cons, right? So if it is a computer game, it
26:00
needs a power supply, it needs a certain amount of energy.
26:03
Now most games are normally one player.
26:07
I mean, you can play nowadays with people online and do
26:08
different stuff, but there is a level of insuliness to playing a
26:14
game. You get fully absorbed in it.
26:16
So you might forget to do other things because you're so
26:19
absorbed in the game. Now, because I have life as an
26:22
adventure. I like doing things.
26:23
I like doing exciting things. But if you think about
26:25
adventurers, normally they're not that rich because
26:31
adventurers are going out there, they're exploring, they're
26:32
always on the search for money, for wealth, those sort of
26:34
things. But they're like flying by the
26:37
seat in their pants normally, exactly that kind of thing.
26:42
Now think about if I have to do a mundane task, if I have to do
26:47
admin. So that's going to be really
26:50
freaking challenging for me because my overarching concept
26:54
of life is life as an adventure, an admin.
26:56
And I mean, I could try and make admin an adventure, but tell
27:00
any, I suppose maybe accountants find out.
27:02
But so it's about looking at in what context does your meta,
27:06
because your metaphor life is a game and the fact you resonate
27:09
with that computer game that has clearly made you successful.
27:13
But I would probably say that in certain aspects of your life
27:15
that is problematic. And similarly, I have the same.
27:18
So it's not about judgement about these metaphors that we
27:20
have under the surface, but it's looking at, OK, where are they
27:24
beneficial? Where do they have their
27:25
limitations? And then you can look and assess
27:28
those limitations to see, OK, how can I look to do things
27:31
differently? And I guess an extension of that
27:35
is that some people believe that and human life as we know it is
27:40
one big simulation. They call it simulation theory
27:43
that actually, if you can create, you know, like something
27:46
like Sims where people are living in a computer, there is
27:49
the possibility that we're already kind of doing that.
27:52
And I'm curious, do you consider that a, a useful or, or
27:58
disempowering metaphor that if someone was to kind of come to
28:00
you and say, I think we're living in a simulation like
28:03
nothing's really real. But you know, you know, because
28:06
that could be empowering, you know, because you're liberated,
28:09
you know, to be, you know, the, the kind of, rather than be the
28:13
NPC, you get to be the kind of the main character in this kind
28:15
of simulation. Or it could be really
28:18
disempowering, like everything is kind of preordained.
28:21
Like, you know, there is a, a fatalism kind of attached to
28:24
that. What what do you make of that
28:26
simulation theory as a as almost a therapeutic metaphor or just a
28:30
way of looking at the world? So I think it would depend on
28:33
the context of which I approach the individual.
28:35
But if we look at that, right, so because the person, let's
28:39
assume the person is correct, I always assume that the client
28:42
believes they're correct. So let's assume it is a
28:44
simulation for them. It's like the Matrix, right?
28:48
I mean, Neo, he was the, he was the only one with all the
28:52
superpowers. But life was tough.
28:55
Life was rough. And for those of us in personal
28:57
development, self-awareness sucks.
29:01
I mean, I mean, it's empowering. You can make a lot more out of
29:03
your life, you can do a lot of great things, but it makes life
29:06
a lot harder because you realise you have choice and possibility.
29:11
So, so from that side, I mean, it can be quite rich.
29:13
What I mean, would you prefer to be a stim?
29:15
Would you prefer to plug back in?
29:16
But the trouble is once you've unplugged, you can't plug back
29:19
in. If we're looking at the
29:21
fatalistic element to it, if I'm to look at that more from a
29:25
structural standpoint, they don't see any different future.
29:30
Everything seems preordained. So for me, if I was to look from
29:34
a therapeutic standpoint, OK, this is where you're at.
29:37
This is what you perceive to be the, the reality.
29:40
Well, what, what potential futures are there?
29:43
And I know you do like your multiverse of possibilities and
29:46
stuff. So for me, I would look, OK,
29:48
this person has an issue looking at the future because the future
29:51
seems preordained and they have no choice.
29:54
And, and you, I would even do stupid things.
29:57
OK, so get a pen, put it in your ear.
29:59
Was that was that preordained? I mean, I just told you to do
30:02
that. So like so you you could play
30:04
about with lots of variations to get them to start to think that
30:06
there could be a different future.
30:09
And if people struggle with the big picture, start with the
30:12
very, very small to to start to get them to say, OK, well, maybe
30:17
today is slightly different to try and shake that that map of
30:20
the world that that's how I would approach that kind of
30:22
thing. That's it, yeah.
30:23
Kind of break out, you know, if if someone has got into the
30:27
almost like, like the rhythm of just, you know, turning up.
30:30
And I remember asking my dad what I thought would be like
30:34
quite a good thought experiment question.
30:36
I said, if you could go back to like a random day in your 20s
30:40
and you just magically appeared in your body and you've got a
30:42
whole day and then you return the next day back, like, what
30:45
would you do? And he's like, well, what day
30:47
would it be? And I said, right, it's just a
30:49
Wednesday And he's like, well, I'll go to work then.
30:52
And I'm like, no, no, no, you for one day.
30:54
You get to go back to any day in your 20s.
30:56
You get to do anything you want, you know, and it's like, but if
31:00
his wind started go to work like he he was almost like so fixated
31:05
that not what could he do, which is a possibility frame, but what
31:09
would he have done back then, which obviously was a different
31:12
thing. But but I think a lot of people,
31:13
the conditioning is so strong that it's difficult to see the
31:17
world of possibility. And it seems more like, well, I
31:20
do what I've always done and and it and it kind of continues
31:24
almost like an MPC and a non player character in a game.
31:28
So I mean, when you describe that, what comes to me
31:32
metaphorically speaking, is so within the metaphors I work
31:37
with, which are called autogenic metaphors, essentially they're
31:40
elicited from the client. It, it sounds like a Groundhog
31:44
Day kind of scenario, right? Every day feels like the same,
31:47
every week's the same. And to be fair, for our parents,
31:51
that's how it was. They didn't have the choice that
31:54
we have now. A lot of them and some some of
31:58
us are still in that rat race. But there's a cyclical nature to
32:01
things now there is a cyclical nature to life in the fact that
32:05
we have seasons every year depending on where you are in
32:09
the in the globe. But there's also a linear aspect
32:12
to things in we go from one year to another year to another year
32:15
like there is a so there's both cyclical and linear perspectives
32:19
that we can consider. So if this person is clearly in
32:22
the cycle, like I need to break the cycle.
32:25
So that would be the consideration.
32:26
How do we create that cycle? And it I mean you, the
32:29
multiversal aspect, Let's just imagine you were here and you
32:33
saw three different paths on that day.
32:35
Now the front path is the path that you always look forward to
32:37
is the only thing you look forward to is the only way to
32:40
go. But you notice that there were
32:41
two different paths just this time.
32:44
What would happen if you did take a step to the right or so?
32:49
So we could invite that to see how that could change
32:52
perspectives. I would also maybe pick a
32:54
weekend because then it's not work day.
32:57
But even then it might just be look after kids go to the park
33:00
because yeah, some people didn't have choice back then.
33:04
Yeah, or, or it shows a value system based on duty and
33:07
responsibility, which, you know, if that's a, a high value
33:10
system, then the thought experiment of, oh, well, if I
33:14
could go back to some random day in the 80s, you know, on a
33:16
Tuesday, I would definitely go to, you know, this, this kind of
33:21
place or this theme park or this, this bar or whatever it
33:24
might be. You know, that that's kind of
33:26
like a different perspective. It's almost like if you had a
33:28
time machine, would you really go back and just live a normal
33:31
day if you could only go back to that time in history for one
33:33
day? So it's really interesting, like
33:35
how people think what, what's the most impactful metaphor that
33:41
you elicited from a client in a real session that you thought
33:46
I'm borrowing that metaphor? Or I can utilize this maybe for
33:49
yourself or for for other clients.
33:54
So I think that's quite difficult because I use
33:59
metaphors in a slightly different sense.
34:00
Most people are used to them being like stories that you
34:03
tell. So one of the most impactful
34:07
metaphors that come to me was actually really interesting.
34:11
I was working with a guy, actually, it was at a
34:12
conference. It was, it was a random
34:14
demonstration, right? And so at conferences I go to
34:18
have a little demo table drawing pretty pictures going through
34:20
people's metaphors. But there was this one guy and
34:23
he, he just came out of the health and Wellness from the
34:25
hypno thoughts. And I'm like, hey, do you want
34:28
to do a demo? He's like, sure.
34:29
I'm like, well, what do you want to work on?
34:30
He's like anything. I'm like, yeah, anything you
34:32
like, you can pick anything and we can explore it.
34:34
And he's like, well, I've got this problem in my jaw.
34:36
Like I went to the, the healing room, they did some stuff and
34:39
it's still freaking hurting. I'm like, OK, well, let's have a
34:43
go. I've never done psychosomatic
34:45
stuff. So let's see if it works, you
34:47
know? So he sits down and I might say,
34:49
what's that whole thing? Like, what's that whole thing
34:51
like this jaw thing? And he's like, well, it's like
34:53
I'm sitting down and it's like, it's like there's someone
34:57
holding my, my head, like, to to his left.
35:00
It's like, it's like someone's holding my mouth shut like that.
35:02
I'm like, OK, that's interesting.
35:06
So, OK, so in this situation, you're right relative to this
35:10
person, you're in the right position.
35:12
You're looking to do things the right way.
35:13
He's left to one side, but he's also keeping your trap shut.
35:17
He's stopping you from speaking. He's stopping you from
35:19
expressing yourself. He's like, yeah, but you're also
35:24
taking it sitting down. You're not taking a stand for
35:26
anything. Like, whoa, I'm like, well,
35:29
let's just try something for a minute.
35:31
And I said, so you're sitting there, He's holding.
35:33
Just take a stand. I don't know what for.
35:36
I'm not going to tell you what to take stand for, but just
35:37
stand up. And he and he actually did it
35:40
physically. He stood up and he looked down
35:42
at me because I was sitting down and I looked at him and I'm
35:46
like, he's like, it's gone. I'm like you.
35:49
What is that? Yeah.
35:50
And what happens? Well, I just, and what came to
35:54
him is this was actually a business conversation that he'd
35:57
had not so long ago, but he didn't speak up.
36:00
He didn't express. Himself.
36:01
He didn't actually communicate what was going on.
36:05
And so and it opened up a whole new world regarding
36:08
psychosomatic issues and those kind of things because we talk
36:11
about how the unconscious is telling us sort of stuff.
36:14
But one of the challenges with sometimes hypnosis, NLPA, lot of
36:17
these modalities that work with the unconscious is you don't
36:21
consciously know what happens. Now for lots of people, that's
36:25
not important. For me, I used to not care.
36:27
I've started to want to become more self aware.
36:29
So this helps me to be actually aware of what's going on under
36:33
the surface. So for me that opened a whole
36:35
new possibility because I can do this with work.
36:38
I mean, you can do this for any context.
36:40
Even if let's say you know there's something wrong, you
36:43
don't know what it is. You've just got a sense of
36:45
something you can do work on that.
36:48
You don't need any further definition because the
36:50
unconscious is so broad. So I think that's a really
36:53
interesting example, and change isn't always that quick, but
36:57
that was just something that was like, wow, that's cool.
37:00
Yeah, that is very cool. And I've noticed that when you
37:03
delve into a metaphor, you almost look at the literal
37:07
nature that if that metaphor was absolutely true, what is the
37:11
structure of that? And I and I guess that you're
37:13
calibrating rather than just kind of saying it.
37:16
And then you're you're you're gauging kind of facial
37:19
expressions, but assuming that they kind of double down and
37:22
they say, yeah, that's how I see things, then it means that any
37:25
change that you make to the metaphor is going to feel more
37:27
profound because you're already pacing their experience with
37:31
their buy into this metaphor that was just probably
37:34
unconscious. And now it feels more more kind
37:38
of solidified. Well, essentially what we're
37:42
doing is we're pacing and leading experience, but we're
37:45
doing it in a very smart way because I can say you're sitting
37:49
there, you're listening to this podcast, and you're being
37:51
curious about what can I learn so I can do that, but using the
37:55
idiomatic communication because it specifically is meaning free,
38:02
but we understand the meaning. So it's not meaning free, but it
38:04
is I can pace that persons experience so I help that
38:08
person. Ultimately what we're doing is
38:10
we're translating unconscious information from their non
38:13
dominant hemisphere and translating into words so that
38:16
they consciously understand what's going on under the
38:19
surface. But the other differential with
38:22
how metaphors of movement work works and differs from things
38:25
like NLP. In NLP you talk about
38:27
submodalities. So in you, you change the
38:30
submodalities, you move them forward, back up, down.
38:33
In the metaphors work, we don't change the metaphor, we just
38:37
change the person's position in that metaphor.
38:42
So ultimately, as opposed to messing with my reality, I'm the
38:46
one who's taking steps. So it's all initiated by self as
38:51
opposed to playing with the structure.
38:54
So if if you were working with someone that, like me, believes
38:58
that at some level life is a game, well, you could be a
39:01
player, but you could be the game's master, You could be the
39:03
creator of the game. You know, you, you know, there's
39:07
different levels of perspectives.
39:09
So that's the way that you would look at it rather than saying
39:12
right, let's choose a different game to play.
39:15
It could be a strategy game rather than a board game or.
39:17
So in the metaphors of movement work that I do, we wouldn't do
39:21
that kind of thing. There's definitely massive value
39:24
in offering those suggestions. For example, the adventure of
39:27
mindset I talked about, I decided to change that for
39:31
myself. Life is an adventure, Life is a
39:33
treasure hunt. Should make me more money.
39:35
Hopefully so it's, but it's similar.
39:38
It's still a line. So, so there's definitely value
39:41
in there. The way this works is it's more
39:43
context specific because if a client's coming to me with a
39:46
problem context, I want to map that out.
39:49
For example, it could be you're playing a game and his life is a
39:54
game and you're playing against, I don't know, someone who can
39:57
predict 1000 moves ahead. So like you say, it's an
40:00
impossible game. In that instance, I'm like,
40:03
well, why are you playing the game?
40:06
Take a different position, go somewhere else.
40:08
If the game you're playing is unwinnable, do something
40:11
different. But I would, I wouldn't look to
40:13
change the game. I'd look to get the person to
40:15
move away and explore different areas of that context.
40:18
Because I mean, I don't know if you've talked to people, I'm
40:20
sure we all know somebody in business who's been doing the
40:23
same thing over and over and over and over and over again.
40:26
But I always fail. Well, are you playing the right
40:28
game as opposed to just changing the idea?
40:32
Get them to explore and do a different game.
40:36
But the trouble is if they've been playing the game that they
40:38
felt they know how to play that game, even if they don't win,
40:41
they know. So there's pros and cons because
40:43
there's a familiarity going to find a new game going somewhere
40:46
else that means exploring or doing something different, which
40:49
is not going to be as comfortable even if losing is
40:52
comfortable. So, so, so there's those ways I
40:55
would play about with it. Yeah, that makes sense.
40:59
And is there a, is there a metaphor that you've encountered
41:03
that you've felt and, and let's go a bit doom and gloom here,
41:07
like the most disempowering or limiting metaphor that you've
41:13
ever encountered someone like literally they, they, they said,
41:17
you know, life is just hell, you know, or something that grim or,
41:22
or something like that, that you just like, well, even if they
41:25
change the context within that metaphor, it's still not a great
41:28
metaphor. OK, so I was working with this
41:32
girl. I tried everything, right?
41:36
I tried like so many different things.
41:38
And for her I was like, so what's this whole thing like?
41:40
And she said I'm falling down a well.
41:43
OK, so imagine a well she's falling, but it's a bottomless
41:48
well. Now, if someone's let's say in a
41:52
box or, or a well, we would normally have an intervention
41:55
that I could do to deal with that.
41:56
But let me just talk you through her experience.
41:58
And actually I was really lucky to see her a few years later.
42:01
So she's in a dark place. She's going down.
42:06
The gravity of the situation is bringing her down.
42:11
She's in a low place, but it's not just a low place.
42:15
She's getting lower and lower every day.
42:20
Really depressing. And the problem is, is she
42:24
doesn't even know when she's going to hit Rob on.
42:26
She doesn't know when she's going to really hit the bottom,
42:29
but it's going to be pretty impactful.
42:32
Could be said there's terminal velocity.
42:34
Now in this situation, she can't do what's right.
42:37
She can't do what's left. She can't progress.
42:39
She's got no way to control her direction.
42:41
She was literally just going down.
42:47
She was effed to to be like that's how it was right?
42:51
She couldn't grasp anything. She couldn't every concept,
42:54
every intervention I tried to do, she couldn't grasp.
42:56
She couldn't hold onto. She was just going lower and
42:58
lower and lower and lower. Now, the other thing is, if I
43:02
was to be in it with her, I would go down with her, right?
43:08
Because, I mean, I can't be anywhere else.
43:10
I could be outside and I could look down on her.
43:14
I could be at the bottom. But we don't know if there's a
43:15
bomb, ultimately. So that was what her situation
43:19
was. So I tried everything and
43:20
nothing worked. And I met her a couple of years
43:24
later and I'm like, that whole thing.
43:26
She's like, yeah, I remember. And she doesn't actually
43:27
remember that metaphor. She remembers one or two others
43:29
that we did and she's like, yeah, just one day I woke up and
43:33
I realised what what, what the hell am I doing?
43:36
And she just got gone with her life.
43:39
She was going through a transition that me as a coach
43:42
and therapist couldn't help with.
43:45
She needed a support because the support is what we stand on.
43:49
She needed a support. She needed an understanding that
43:51
I couldn't give her now, how understanding what supports us,
43:57
what we stand on within autogenic metaphor is normally
44:02
like why we're there. It's the support that we've got.
44:05
Talk about 5 wives digging deep. She wanted to know why is this?
44:09
Why is this the case? She just kept asking why and
44:12
going deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.
44:14
Because sometimes asking why can be really empowering, like Simon
44:17
Sinek 5 wives really useful, but sometimes people ask why so much
44:22
and it takes them into such a low place that to get out of
44:26
that is a bit of a problem. So there are pros and cons to
44:29
these different approaches. But yeah, it was just really
44:31
fascinating. I mean, I felt like rubbish
44:36
because I like helping people, so I felt like rubbish and I
44:39
felt. But then I talked to one or two
44:40
other people that I really value within the personal development
44:44
and change space. And one of them's like, she's
44:47
just got to get on with it herself, which sucks sometimes,
44:53
but sometimes. So there was another guy, right?
44:58
So normally my metaphor, I, I do metaphors on like ideal clients,
45:03
target marketing, that kind of stuff.
45:04
My ideal client is a client essentially.
45:07
Just imagine the picture. There's somebody looking at lava
45:09
and they're like, Oh, I can't cross the lava.
45:12
And what I do is I see them, I walk up to them, I'm like, I'll
45:14
give you a lift. They jump on my back.
45:16
I jump on stepping stones and get them across the lava.
45:18
So I get someone from A to BI get them over a hot place.
45:21
Normally anger, fears, phobias, that kind of stuff.
45:23
Quick fixes, I get them to the other side, I take full
45:26
responsibility, I pick them up, I take them over, I drop them
45:29
off, I leave, they leave all happy basically.
45:32
I like fixing stuff, but I had this guy, his mum referred me,
45:36
which was warning number one, and basically he was just so
45:40
focused on how his life was terrible, how his life was
45:43
rubbish. Basically he was stuck in a
45:44
victim mentality in the sense that I was carrying him now.
45:49
Can you imagine how tiring that gets when people don't want to
45:51
take steps themselves? And I basically said to him,
45:54
look, I'm happy to work with you.
45:55
I'm happy to do the work with you.
45:56
The only thing you need to do, your mum's paying.
45:58
The only thing you need to do is book your next Zoom session.
46:03
And he didn't. He needed to basically, he
46:08
needed to learn. He needs to take responsibility
46:10
for his life. But then taking responsibility
46:14
means I'm actually able to do something about it.
46:20
So that micro step, nothing would change, but that micro
46:23
step he wasn't willing to do. And some people need to get to a
46:27
place of pure destruction of who they are before something
46:31
changes. So sometimes I think as coaches
46:34
and therapists, we can actually stop people from going through
46:39
the suffering they need to, which doesn't help them.
46:44
It's a very valid point and it, it brings me to the point that,
46:49
you know, mental health is itself a metaphor that, you
46:54
know, that it's a, a sickness and health kind of framework.
47:00
And one of the things that I really liked about NLP is that
47:04
it was the first time I saw something that looked at things
47:07
like phobias and anxiety as a learning model rather than a
47:12
sickness model. And I think a lot of people have
47:15
bought into this idea of mental health and, and they're mentally
47:19
ill and, and when they have that belief system that that's the,
47:23
the model of what's happening inside and, and their emotions,
47:28
then prescription medication is the obvious thing if you're
47:31
sick. I'm curious because you're,
47:34
you're so into metaphors, like what do you think of the whole
47:37
mental health metaphor when it comes to, you know, things like
47:40
emotional or, or kind of psychological situations?
47:45
So I mean, the dyslexia example with the lady was a good
47:49
example. She'd been labeled as dyslexic,
47:52
but her actual thought process was I read perfectly fine until
47:57
I don't understand what I've read and then the stuff goes
48:00
everywhere. So there was a mental process to
48:03
that. I had a, an interesting debate
48:06
with my best mate, actually one of our one of our many long
48:09
nights walking home and we were talking about, so he has his son
48:13
has quite severe autism and he was looking at ADHD and looking
48:19
at the symptoms and listing all the symptoms he has and, and,
48:22
and I challenged him. Now I think for me, labels can
48:27
be really useful for awareness. They can help people feel really
48:31
understood and really forgotten. Personality profiles can do the
48:35
same. However, the beef, the beef I
48:40
have with some of these diagnostics is does it empower
48:45
the person? Does it limit the person?
48:48
Now, I think there are medical conditions, there are stuff, so
48:51
I'm not going to say that there's no youthfulness in
48:54
medicine, but I always look at what is the specific context and
48:59
situation that's problematic and can I start to create shifts in
49:06
there? For example, as I say, I hate
49:09
admin. So what do I do?
49:11
I put on Latin music, I've put so my internal dialogue can't go
49:16
round and round. I use an auditory distraction to
49:18
allow myself to get my admin heavy tasks done.
49:22
That's how I cope. I could maybe do some more
49:24
internal work on it, but currently not willing to.
49:27
So that's how I deal with that, right.
49:30
So for me it's what's the specific context, what's the
49:33
specific problem, What's the specific issue?
49:36
But the biggest problem, I think is the vast majority of the
49:40
populace are still in the Matrix, so they have no idea
49:44
that there are different frames of reference.
49:47
And we have that if there's a problem, you go to a doctor.
49:51
So for me, it's OK, what's the specific problem?
49:54
What's the specific context? Do I know how I can shift my
49:58
thinking? Is there a way of shifting my
50:00
thinking or is there not? So I wouldn't necessarily jump
50:04
to medical diagnosis, but I would take them into
50:07
consideration as a possibility. But yeah, but I think a lot of
50:12
diagnostics can sometimes be used as an excuse, which also
50:18
people who've got that diagnostic don't like to hear,
50:20
but it's because they don't know that they might have other
50:22
choice. They might not, but they may.
50:24
So I'm always a context to context, problem to problem kind
50:30
of guy. Yeah, and I think sometimes a
50:32
diagnosis can be adopted at the identity level.
50:36
So rather than someone feels depressed, they are depressed
50:39
and then that becomes sometimes a self fulfilling prophecy to to
50:43
keep them trapped in that, in that story, which again, you
50:47
know, sometimes can be can be a bit of a trap like that.
50:51
That yeah, I really, I remember. Well.
50:54
Yeah, I remember 1 of Richard Banda's trainings, he said that
50:57
for some reason he had some medical issue and he went to the
50:59
doctor. I'm going to say it's because he
51:01
he had an issue with his leg and couldn't walk.
51:03
That could be completely wrong. But the, the, the basis is there
51:06
and the doctor said you'll never walk again.
51:08
So Richard said come here. And he punched him in the face.
51:13
Very, Richard. But it was more that he wasn't
51:16
willing to take on that belief, that idea.
51:19
And my wife's working with somebody who had some sort of
51:23
medical thing. And because doctors have
51:26
authority, we don't necessarily want to challenge that.
51:30
Not saying it's wrong, not saying they are wrong, but
51:33
there's a, there are other choices.
51:35
And a lot of the time we're just not aware of that.
51:37
There are those options available.
51:40
But you are right, some people get very defensive at the idea
51:43
that that might be another way of looking at whatever their
51:46
condition is. And that might be an autoimmune
51:49
issue. It might be, you know, how many
51:51
times have you heard people say, no, I experienced anxiety, but I
51:54
have anxiety like, it's like it's a physical, you know, kind
51:58
of belonging that is kind of attached to them.
52:01
So yeah, it can be a very sharp double edged sword.
52:04
You've got lots of events coming up, you're organising an event
52:08
in LA, you're also speaking Hypno Thoughts Live and many
52:10
other conferences. Tell us what's on your diary and
52:12
where people can can actually work with you.
52:15
OK, cool. So I mean, there's a few
52:17
different things if you go to www.metaphorsofmovement.us.
52:22
That's where I sort of teach and train that sort of stuff.
52:24
There's also a link in that main home page if you want to get a
52:27
free demo of the work if if you're curious.
52:31
So that's a bit of an overview regarding the training.
52:32
But yeah, I've got a few different conferences.
52:34
I'm going to the IAC conference, Hypno Expo in May, in May, and
52:41
I'm going to be doing 2 modules on Business 1 is going to be
52:43
about how to tailor your marketing specifically to your
52:48
target audience by ultimately eliciting the metaphor of when
52:52
you acquired your, your ideal client.
52:54
And then we can look at how your marketing works, but we're also
52:56
going to look at the overarching business structures within your
52:59
business. And I'm going to be doing a
53:01
similar business one at Hypno Thoughts.
53:03
And next month, No, this month, this month on the 22nd of
53:07
February, I'm doing an event called Galaxy of the Stars,
53:11
which is also from the IAC conference, where I'm going to
53:14
be talking about dancing with dichotomies, which is a 3 1/2
53:17
hour workshop. But it's going to be talking
53:19
about ultimately a few different polarities, dichotomies within
53:24
the human personality. So for example, thinking versus
53:28
feeling associated versus dissociated, different time
53:31
predications. Are you future thinking, past
53:33
thinking, present thinking. So we're going to sort of unpack
53:36
those, but we're going to compile stories that you can
53:39
tell clients because I believe all problems that clients have
53:43
have these sort of underlying structures.
53:45
And if you can start to present these stories and talk about how
53:50
I was really logical looking all the facts, all the figures.
53:53
But then I just took a step back and I just looked at the bigger
53:55
picture for a moment and I just started to see how all the
53:58
things sort of connected. If we can paste those
54:00
experiences, we can give the clients hooks for change to
54:05
occur. Yeah.
54:06
And hypno LA, it's going to be a live in person event, LA 19th
54:09
and 20th of September. And yeah, it's going to be a
54:12
hands on event for hypnotherapists, coaches, change
54:15
workers. And yeah, it's really going to
54:17
be about practical application because I'm a firm believer in
54:19
doing as he's Lori Donnelly Meyer Co host.
54:23
But yeah, it's going to be really, really good fun.
54:24
So lots of stuff happening. So it's going to be a good 2020.
54:27
Six yeah. Sounds exciting.
54:29
And have you got an experience or something that the listeners
54:34
can kind of get a sense of your metaphors of movement?
54:40
OK, So what I'd invite you to do is I'm going to invite you to
54:44
close your eyes, make sure you're not operating machinery
54:47
or doing anything that would hurt you.
54:49
It's not going to be a deep chance.
54:51
Don't you worry. And what I'd like you to do is
54:52
I'd like you to think about a relationship.
54:54
A relationship you've got could be with a significant other or
54:57
not, but one that's problematic, but not the relationship, the
55:00
context itself. In a situation with somebody and
55:05
if you were to get an image of that person, where would they be
55:08
relative to you? Would they be to your right?
55:12
Would they be to your left? Would they be in front?
55:15
Would they be behind? Would you be carrying them?
55:19
Would you be on top of them? Would you look up to them?
55:21
Would you look down to them and just get a sense of where that
55:23
person is in space in time? Now, if they were right for you,
55:28
they'd be in the right direction, they'd be in the
55:30
right place. It could be said that they're
55:31
the righteous one. If they're to your left, it
55:34
could be that they'd been left to one side, they'd been left
55:36
out and you're more right than they are.
55:40
It could be said that if they're in front of you, you would look
55:42
forward to them. They'd be ahead of you, maybe
55:44
they'd believe leading the way, maybe you'd see eye to eye.
55:48
If they're in the background, they'd be behind you.
55:51
You'd put yourself 1st and they'd have your back as you
55:54
would guide forward. Now if you're carrying them,
55:57
they might be a weight that you're carrying, something that
56:00
you're holding on to and you're taking them places, but they're
56:03
bearing down on you. Or if you look up to them, you
56:06
might seem small relative to them.
56:09
But what I'd invite you to do is I'd invite you to just in this
56:13
situation with that person, I'd like you to think, where could I
56:16
position myself to make this relationship better?
56:19
What position would I be in relative to them?
56:25
And as you move yourself now to that position, whatever position
56:29
makes the most sense for you, just notice what you notice.
56:39
And then you can notice what happens.
56:45
And then you can notice how that changes things.
56:51
And as you notice that, you can, if you wish, in your own time,
56:58
try different locations, different times.
57:01
And you can always rewind this part of the recording if you
57:03
wish to try different positions, because not all positions are
57:08
the right positions. Not all positions are the
57:11
positions that are not quite right.
57:17
But in this place, in this space, you can just imagine what
57:19
it would be like the next time you saw this person in that
57:21
context. Now you've taken a different
57:23
position to them, a different stance to them, you've had a
57:26
different place to them. You can start to notice the
57:30
possibility of how that changes things.
57:42
And with that, now in this space, in this place, I'm going
57:45
to invite you to come back to the room alive, alert, awake,
57:50
and if you're like, enthusiastic.
57:58
Very interesting. And.
58:09
When you, when you do that is what's the significance of the
58:14
location? Do you feel like where where you
58:17
imagine that person to be? Is it kind of demonstrates the
58:22
dynamic that exists between you and that person or or it's it's
58:26
just using almost like cold reading language to kind of
58:30
allow some kind of change? So the different, so I've done
58:35
it quite generalized, right, because I'm doing it for
58:37
everybody, but we all put people within our mental space, you
58:41
know yourself like sub modalities, we put in certain
58:43
locations. So this person is there in that
58:47
location. In that context.
58:50
For example, my wife is in front of me.
58:52
I look forward to my wife. She puts herself first, I put
58:55
her first and that's why it works because she's also quite
58:59
self centred, not necessarily in a bad way, but she puts herself
59:03
first. I put her first.
59:04
Now we had a bit of a challenge when it came to business because
59:07
she wanted to help me with my business.
59:08
She wanted to lead the way in my business and it didn't work.
59:11
I put myself first in my business, so for me, it's a
59:15
really good way of understanding the dynamic.
59:18
But each of these positions, I do some work with corporate
59:21
environments, talking about leadership.
59:24
Each of these different positions require specific skill
59:28
sets in order to do them well. So, for example, if somebody's
59:34
very righteous, they're very right.
59:36
They know what's right, they know what's wrong.
59:37
To be right, you need to know the facts, the statistics, you
59:40
need to know the cultural generalizations of what is
59:42
correct to do. So if somebody's in the right
59:44
position, normally righteous is also a little bit judging.
59:48
So someone who's right. But that's not necessarily a bad
59:52
thing because if let's say you're working in quality
59:54
control or you're telling people the right way to do things or
59:59
the correct way to do things because they don't know what's
1:00:01
right, it can be very beneficial.
1:00:02
So that's about looking at these dynamics and they have, they all
1:00:06
have pros, cons, advantages and disadvantages.
1:00:10
So it's about exploring those but realising that you can take
1:00:14
a different stance, you can take a different position.
1:00:18
The challenge is you might need skills and expertise to take
1:00:22
those positions on an ongoing basis.
1:00:25
Very fair Dale, this has been really useful.
1:00:28
Give us your website again just so for anyone wants to check
1:00:32
that out. Www.metaphorsofmovement.usmetaphorsofmovement.us.
1:00:40
Perfect. I'll make sure that's in the
1:00:41
show notes as well. So if you haven't remembered
1:00:43
that, check out the description. You'll see some details for Dale
1:00:47
so you can check out all of his upcoming events and training
1:00:50
materials and resources and that kind of stuff.
1:00:53
Dale, it's been great to have you on the show today.
1:00:55
It's. Been awesome to be here.
1:00:56
Thank you for having me, Adam. Awesome.
1:00:58
Take care. Thank you so much for joining me
1:01:03
on today's episode of The Hypnotist.
1:01:06
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