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In Conversation with The Nelson Mandela Foundation · Drive with John Perlman

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  Speaker 1: One of the highlights of every year is the annual
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela, the Nelson Mandela Annual Lecture. This year it
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  Speaker 1: is the 24th. It's taking place on Friday, this Friday
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  Speaker 1: at the Cape Town International Convention Center and this time
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  Speaker 1: the Nelson Mandela Foundation. is doing it in partnership with
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  Speaker 1: an organization called One Young World. The lecture will be
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  Speaker 1: delivered by a man who's also, like our former president,
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  Speaker 1: won the Nobel Peace Prize. He won it in 2016,
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  Speaker 1: and he is a former president of the country of Colombia.
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  Speaker 1: Juan Manuel Santos will be delivering a lecture entitled, When
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  Speaker 1: is Silence Complicity? So to talk about the lecture, the
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  Speaker 1: choice of guests, and the theme he's likely to explore.
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  Speaker 1: We're now joined by Professor Vern Harris, who's Executive Consultant
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  Speaker 1: at the Nelson Mandela Foundation. Prof. Harris, welcome and thanks
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  Speaker 1: very much for giving us your time. The choice of
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  Speaker 1: former President Santos Very, very interesting one indeed. I understand
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  Speaker 1: that you yourself have made some study of Colombia, a
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  Speaker 1: country that has also had to make, like ourselves, a
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  Speaker 1: move from conflict towards peace. Was that a big part
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  Speaker 1: of choosing former President Santos as the guest? And where
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  Speaker 1: do you think there might be similarities, but also maybe
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  Speaker 1: instructive differences about their experience and ours?
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  Speaker 2: Hi, John. Yes, indeed. You know, it's the 10th anniversary
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  Speaker 2: of that peace accord, which ended the civil war in Colombia.
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  Speaker 2: Colombia has also been through processes of reparation, restitution, a
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  Speaker 2: truth commission. They're facing challenges 10 years later. that are
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  Speaker 2: not dissimilar to the ones we're confronting here in South Africa.
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  Speaker 2: And so we felt that there was a strong resonance
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  Speaker 2: for us in having former President Santos speaking, but also
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  Speaker 2: his experience globally. He's involved in a whole range of
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  Speaker 2: global organizations like The Elders, for example. So his experiences
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  Speaker 2: of global challenges of dealing with growing patterns of polarization
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  Speaker 2: and conflict in the world.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean... It's an interesting set of parallels because
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  Speaker 1: even though our TRC finished quite some time ago, it
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  Speaker 1: is back with us in the form of the Jumpepe
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  Speaker 1: Commission and it really has raised some very interesting debates
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  Speaker 1: and perhaps this is true for Colombia as well, Prof,
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  Speaker 1: that it's one thing to have everybody tell the truth and,
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  Speaker 1: you know, accept that the catharsis that that brought was
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  Speaker 1: valid and profound, but maybe its limits are also becoming
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  Speaker 1: quite obvious to us as well. I wonder if that's, again,
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  Speaker 1: something that has a parallel with the Colombian experience.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're putting your finger on it, John.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that here in South Africa, a
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  Speaker 2: big unresolved issue is land redistribution. And in Colombia, very similar,
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  Speaker 2: because part of the peace negotiations happened had to do
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  Speaker 2: with return of forcibly removed land and putting in place
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  Speaker 2: mechanisms to ensure equitable access to land. Very similar to
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  Speaker 2: the kinds of public debates we're having right now. And
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  Speaker 2: of course, when we talk land redistribution here in South Africa,
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  Speaker 2: we face a lot of resistance from powerful formations in
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  Speaker 2: terms of who's funding you. A lot of funders don't
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  Speaker 2: really want to fund land redistribution initiatives. And institutions of
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  Speaker 2: the state are not doing very well in that space. Now,
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  Speaker 2: Colombia is experiencing similar things. And so we feel we've
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  Speaker 2: got a lot to learn from them and maybe the
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  Speaker 2: other way as well.
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  Speaker 1: Just to take a step back from the issues we're
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  Speaker 1: exploring and we'll return to them, I hope, in a moment.
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  Speaker 1: But the lecture itself, I mean, this is the 24th.
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  Speaker 1: What is the purpose of it? Because obviously in the
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  Speaker 1: time when Madiba was alive, there was an opportunity for
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  Speaker 1: people to gather in his honor, but also in his
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  Speaker 1: presence with his passing. I would think the focus shifts somewhat.
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  Speaker 1: In 2026, what's the meaning of the lecture now in
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  Speaker 1: your view?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, we call it a thought leadership platform. And
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  Speaker 2: for us, more than ever before, we need new ideas.
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  Speaker 2: We need to be thinking out of the box. We
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  Speaker 2: need to be listening carefully to people who are enabling
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  Speaker 2: us to imagine different ways of doing things. And whether
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  Speaker 2: we're talking about democracy or land reform, it's not good
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  Speaker 2: enough to keep trying to do the same things we've
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  Speaker 2: been doing for so long and they're patently not working.
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  Speaker 2: And so we're looking to ensure that that platform invites
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  Speaker 2: people speakers who are going to help us to think differently.
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  Speaker 1: We do so many things in Nelson Mandela's name. In
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  Speaker 1: his honor, there's obviously the 67 Minutes, which we do
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  Speaker 1: in July. There are sports events where a trophy is
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  Speaker 1: played for that is named after our founding father. My sense, though,
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  Speaker 1: is there are a lot more questions about that, that
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  Speaker 1: maybe we've created almost a little comfortable space, not necessarily
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  Speaker 1: intentionally so, where we can invoke Nelson Mandela's name, remember,
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  Speaker 1: what he meant at the time that he was making
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  Speaker 1: the profound differences that he did, but that it allows
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  Speaker 1: us to perhaps ignore the fact that we're not necessarily
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  Speaker 1: making a great job, either of building on his legacy or,
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  Speaker 1: you know, engaging with the political and moral questions that he,
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  Speaker 1: you know, repeatedly suggested we ought to wrestle with. Do
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  Speaker 1: you have a thought on that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think that's a good question, John. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I think, you know, these notions of legacy, Mandela's legacy
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  Speaker 2: can get in the way. Yes. But two things. One
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  Speaker 2: is that, you know, that name still has a fundamental power.
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  Speaker 2: And so you can attract resources, you can mobilize people,
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  Speaker 2: you can mobilize energies around that name and that legacy
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  Speaker 2: for important work that still needs to be done. So
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  Speaker 2: there's that side to it. The other is that within
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  Speaker 2: the framing of the Nelson Mandela Foundation, there's an imperative
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  Speaker 2: that we invite critique of Madiba's legacy.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: And so, for example, we've just launched a project called
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  Speaker 2: The First Five Years. It's an oral history project going
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  Speaker 2: back to that first administration to properly understand what did
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  Speaker 2: we perhaps get wrong in those first five years that
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  Speaker 2: we're paying a price for now. If we don't learn
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  Speaker 2: those lessons, arguably, we're not going to be able to
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  Speaker 2: Do differently now.
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  Speaker 1: It's interesting that you refer to that because particularly bearing
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  Speaker 1: in mind the presence as keynote speaker of President Juan
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  Speaker 1: Manuel Santos, because I would assume that when the Colombian
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  Speaker 1: government and their adversaries, you know, well known as FARC
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  Speaker 1: around the world, but the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia.
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  Speaker 1: As in Al-Qaeda, presumably they would have had to make compromises.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if that's part of that reflection and
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  Speaker 1: consideration of those early years of South Africa, because I
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  Speaker 1: would have thought a lot of compromises were necessary there
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  Speaker 1: as well.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, the compromises... in both countries
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  Speaker 2: have led to, let's say, a slowness in doing the
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  Speaker 2: really difficult work. And whether we're talking land redistribution or
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  Speaker 2: a broader redistribution of wealth, whether we're talking about prosecutions,
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  Speaker 2: or the searching for and the location of the remains
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  Speaker 2: of missing persons across the board, those compromises have made
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  Speaker 2: it much easier for structures of power, whether it's in
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  Speaker 2: the state or in the private sector, is to be
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  Speaker 2: very slow about the difficult work, focus on the easier stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And so, you know, we're hoping that we can, with
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  Speaker 2: this lecture, and it's not just a one-off lecture, there's
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  Speaker 2: also a dialogue the day before, and there are other
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  Speaker 2: processes around the One Young World Summit, which President Santos
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  Speaker 2: is involved in. is that we can stimulate the kinds
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  Speaker 2: of discussions and debates which will help us actually, you know,
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  Speaker 2: begin to identify the kinds of solutions that we're looking for.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Professor Verne Harris, joining us from
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  Speaker 1: the Nelson Mandela Foundation. If you're interested in attending the lecture,
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  Speaker 1: by the way, it's at the Cape Town International Convention Centre.
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  Speaker 1: Just to give you the practical details, it's Friday afternoon.
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  Speaker 1: Doors open at quarter past two and the full program
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  Speaker 1: begins at three o'clock. And they really do have a
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  Speaker 1: speaker of considerable interest, not perhaps all that well known
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  Speaker 1: in South Africa, but his work in Colombia trying to
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  Speaker 1: bring about peace in a country that has really labored
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  Speaker 1: under a brutal and many decades long war earned President
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  Speaker 1: Juan Manuel Santos nothing. the Nobel Prize back in 2016.
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  Speaker 1: So if you're in Cape Town and available, I would
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  Speaker 1: recommend you go along.