Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #113 Technology In Our Schools (Featuring Dr Amy Graham)

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#113 Technology In Our Schools (Featuring Dr Amy Graham) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:02
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
0:05
Speaker 1: poor parent who just once answers. Now I'm doctor Justin
0:09
Speaker 1: Coulson and today something a little different. Normally I'll have
0:13
Speaker 1: a chat with Luke and Suzi, the husband and wife
0:15
Speaker 1: radio duo with three young boys, will answer your questions, dramas,
0:18
Speaker 1: queries and problems and try to make your family happier. Well,
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Speaker 1: I had a report come across my desk just in
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Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks that really caught my attention.
0:26
Speaker 1: It was all about technology and our children, but technology
0:29
Speaker 1: not from a parent's perspective, but from the perspective of teachers,
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Speaker 1: the people who are dealing with our children and tech
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Speaker 1: on a daily basis, almost as much, if not more
0:39
Speaker 1: than we are. Doctor Amy Graham is a psychology researcher
0:43
Speaker 1: at the University of New South Wales and she has
0:45
Speaker 1: looked into technology use in schools, particularly for regional and
0:49
Speaker 1: remote students, and she's also researched school readiness for our
0:53
Speaker 1: little ones. Amy has previously worked as a Ministerial Advisor
0:56
Speaker 1: to the South Australian Minister for Education and also as
0:59
Speaker 1: a policy advisor in education in both government and non
1:03
Speaker 1: government sectors, and Amy joins me today to.
1:06
Speaker 2: Talk about this report.
1:08
Speaker 1: Now, Amy's let us research as the lead researcher on
1:11
Speaker 1: this is it's the Growing Up Digital Australia Report that
1:15
Speaker 1: was conducted with the Gonski Institute for Education at UNSW.
1:19
Speaker 1: The report is based on data collected late twenty nineteen,
1:23
Speaker 1: prior to COVID, and it involved a survey of Australian
1:26
Speaker 1: teachers asking them about technology at school and at home,
1:30
Speaker 1: along with changes they've seen in the classroom in the
1:33
Speaker 1: past three to five years as technology has become increasingly
1:37
Speaker 1: utilized and part of the furniture. But before we talk
1:40
Speaker 1: to tech, I asked Amy a range of questions, including
1:44
Speaker 1: this one. Amy, what percentage of teachers are noticing a
1:47
Speaker 1: big change in the way the classroom works over the
1:49
Speaker 1: last few years.
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Speaker 3: Ninety percent of educators told us that they thought the
1:53
Speaker 3: number of children with psychological, social, and behavioral challenges has
1:57
Speaker 3: actually increased, seventy eight percent that student's ability to focus
2:01
Speaker 3: on the educational tasks that they're set has decreased, and
2:05
Speaker 3: then a whole fifty nine percent has observed a decline
2:08
Speaker 3: in students overall readiness to learn.
2:11
Speaker 2: So how do you measure readiness to learn.
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Speaker 3: We looked at readiness to learn through indicators like the
2:16
Speaker 3: ability to focus on the task of the set students,
2:19
Speaker 3: completion of work on time, punctuality and attendance at school,
2:24
Speaker 3: coming to school, tired and hungry, levels of physical activity,
2:27
Speaker 3: and their empathy and resilience, and all of those indicators
2:31
Speaker 3: have decreased according to teachers.
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Speaker 1: What are the really interesting things about this data? And
2:36
Speaker 1: I guess this is the nitpicky academic in me coming out,
2:38
Speaker 1: But when we're talking about a subjective experience and we're saying, well,
2:40
Speaker 1: what's life like now compared to what it was three
2:42
Speaker 1: to five years ago or ten to twenty years ago,
2:45
Speaker 1: we know that people tend to, I guess, glamorize the
2:49
Speaker 1: past and maybe romanticize and become nostalgic about it. Whereas
2:53
Speaker 1: what we're dealing with now is the worst it's ever been.
2:55
Speaker 1: How do you respond to that though, from just that
2:58
Speaker 1: bias that comes from dealing with the here and now
3:01
Speaker 1: and the emotion of the moment versus oh yeah, it
3:03
Speaker 1: wasn't so bad back then.
3:04
Speaker 3: I mean, certainly that's a limitation of the methodology of
3:08
Speaker 3: this sort of research, But we also have to give
3:11
Speaker 3: weight to the people that are spending so much time
3:14
Speaker 3: with our kids. So educators are seeing them and have
3:17
Speaker 3: a really experts in their field, and they are seeing
3:21
Speaker 3: changes over a pretty short space of time. We're not
3:24
Speaker 3: asking them to reflect back, you know, to when they
3:26
Speaker 3: watch TV, for example, so it's quite a short space
3:29
Speaker 3: of time. So I think you know them being able
3:32
Speaker 3: to give us real examples of kids not listening and
3:35
Speaker 3: not taking notes like they did a couple of years ago,
3:39
Speaker 3: wanting to be entertained all the time and have this
3:41
Speaker 3: constant access to devices even when they didn't fit the task.
3:46
Speaker 3: I think we do need to listen to those messages.
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Speaker 1: Technology is implicated in most of the challenges that the
3:54
Speaker 1: teachers have highlighted. Last year in Australia there was a
3:56
Speaker 1: really big debate about mobile phones in schools and several
4:00
Speaker 1: eights made decisions to ban mobiles in public schools, certainly
4:03
Speaker 1: in primary school.
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Speaker 2: Eighty four percent of your.
4:07
Speaker 1: Sample of what was pretty close to two thousand teachers,
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Speaker 1: so that they perceive that digital distraction or sorry, digital
4:13
Speaker 1: technology is as a growing distraction, which is really curious
4:16
Speaker 1: to me because we're also seeing this really big push
4:18
Speaker 1: for technology in the classroom, and teachers are also leading
4:21
Speaker 1: the charge.
4:22
Speaker 2: Are they the same teachers?
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Speaker 1: You know? The teachers are saying, well, technology is a problem.
4:25
Speaker 1: We don't want tech unless it's our tech the way
4:27
Speaker 1: we want it.
4:28
Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: In so many conversations on this issue, the positive and
4:32
Speaker 3: negative aspects are presented subjectively and focusing on these polarizing
4:37
Speaker 3: moral questions and really pitted as a one sided argument.
4:41
Speaker 3: So I think it's important, like you've said, not to
4:43
Speaker 3: ignore the value of technology or only.
4:46
Speaker 4: Explore its risks and pitfalls.
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Speaker 3: Because it is the current reality of the world that
4:50
Speaker 3: children are growing up in, and they are growing up digitally,
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Speaker 3: but we know that we need a deeper understandings of
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Speaker 3: how they can affect children's lives and learning and well being.
5:00
Speaker 3: And this is one of the reasons that I don't
5:01
Speaker 3: advocate for that blanket band that some states.
5:04
Speaker 4: Have introduced to do.
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Speaker 3: This ignores those benefits and teaches nothing about how to
5:11
Speaker 3: regulate usage or learn how.
5:13
Speaker 4: To be responsible and informed considered users.
5:16
Speaker 3: So let's go to the benefits. I mean, it's clear
5:19
Speaker 3: that technology is here to stay and it can be
5:22
Speaker 3: really empowering for kids of all ages. So teachers use
5:26
Speaker 3: a whole range of tools to help children learn in
5:28
Speaker 3: fun and engaging ways, and express their creativity and stay connected.
5:33
Speaker 3: We also know from other research that children who are
5:36
Speaker 3: tech savvy will also be better prepared for a workforce
5:39
Speaker 3: that's predominantly digital. So educators in our study reported some
5:43
Speaker 3: really positive uses of media and technology in the classroom,
5:47
Speaker 3: and fifty five percent said that student reporting for them
5:50
Speaker 3: was enhanced by digital technologies. It also helps teachers to
5:55
Speaker 3: facilitate greater communication and collaboration with each other and with parents.
6:00
Speaker 3: So overall, I mean, we had close to half the
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Speaker 3: sample believing that digital technologies actually enhanced their teaching and
6:08
Speaker 3: learning activities rather than detracting. So despite using the technology
6:13
Speaker 3: more than ever, it seemed to teaches that the skill
6:16
Speaker 3: level of children on these devices just hasn't kept step
6:20
Speaker 3: with their excessive usage, so they really lacked research skills.
6:25
Speaker 3: They might be really good at playing the games, but
6:27
Speaker 3: they're unable to search and synthesize and critique what they're
6:31
Speaker 3: seeing online.
6:32
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've found this or not in
6:34
Speaker 1: your research, but certainly, anecdotally, what I find is that
6:37
Speaker 1: work that's done on a screen, it doesn't lend itself
6:41
Speaker 1: to the same level of deep thinking as pen and paper.
6:43
Speaker 1: I know that there's some data, for example, that shows
6:45
Speaker 1: that when children are studying for memorization, pen and paper
6:49
Speaker 1: is superior. There's something about the brain processing where the
6:54
Speaker 1: written word and picking up a pen and writing something
6:58
Speaker 1: down versus typing it or reading it for screen. There's
7:01
Speaker 1: something going on that makes the brain engage differently. So
7:04
Speaker 1: I wonder if that could be one of the reasons
7:07
Speaker 1: that there's some of these challenges that you've highlighted, and
7:10
Speaker 1: the other one that I quickly wanted to touch on
7:12
Speaker 1: as well, in terms of a difficulty, you were indicated
7:15
Speaker 1: that teachers are saying the children are very capable of
7:18
Speaker 1: working around or working on their devices, but they don't
7:22
Speaker 1: necessarily know very much about them. And I remember reading
7:24
Speaker 1: a book by cal Newport. I think he wrote Deep Work,
7:26
Speaker 1: where he says giving a child on an iPad or
7:29
Speaker 1: a screen and saying that you want them to get
7:31
Speaker 1: good at understanding how technology works is like giving a
7:35
Speaker 1: todd a Tonka truck and saying I want you to
7:37
Speaker 1: grow up and be a mechanic.
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Speaker 3: Teacher certainly talked to us about the lack of interest
7:41
Speaker 3: in handwriting or lack of interest in doing complex mathematical computations.
7:47
Speaker 3: But on a screen they are easier for a child
7:50
Speaker 3: perhaps to do, but they're not as impactful. So the
7:53
Speaker 3: learning's just not perhaps taking place in the same way
7:57
Speaker 3: that note taking. You know, there's lots of re search
8:00
Speaker 3: around to say that that's how we absorb. Certainly that's
8:03
Speaker 3: how I crammed in my year twelve on my little
8:05
Speaker 3: qu cards, So I think there's lots of excellent research
8:08
Speaker 3: in the past to show that that's a great way
8:11
Speaker 3: to learn. So I'm not sure why we're accepting this
8:13
Speaker 3: reality that's not expecting that same stuff.
8:16
Speaker 1: The benefits maybe just a quick summary again, teachers are
8:20
Speaker 1: basically saying this helps us as adults as educators to
8:23
Speaker 1: work with one another and collaborate, and we can definitely
8:25
Speaker 1: help those who are disadvantaged in some way, whether it's
8:28
Speaker 1: through disability or additional needs, or those who are in
8:30
Speaker 1: remote regional areas, and this is a way for us
8:33
Speaker 1: to get really great quality education, personalized and customized to
8:37
Speaker 1: their needs in a way that we previously couldn't. So
8:40
Speaker 1: there's some clear arguments for why we really want to
8:43
Speaker 1: see this. The last thing that I wanted to pick
8:45
Speaker 1: up on in terms of that response, though to my
8:47
Speaker 1: fairly long winded question, was that you suggested that the
8:51
Speaker 1: bands on mobile phones at school is something that you're
8:56
Speaker 1: not a supporter of. Now, I'm the kind of guy
8:58
Speaker 1: who's very much against high levels of regulation.
9:02
Speaker 2: I think that we want to give people autonomy.
9:03
Speaker 1: We want to help our children to learn how to
9:06
Speaker 1: develop and use what's in their environment in effective ways.
9:09
Speaker 1: And so I'm the last person who would typically support
9:12
Speaker 1: this particular band. And let's speak specifically about primary school students,
9:17
Speaker 1: because that's where the bands have been centered, particularly the
9:21
Speaker 1: one that got most of the attention, which was in Victoria.
9:23
Speaker 1: What is it about that band that you don't feel
9:27
Speaker 1: good about? And maybe I can preface your response by
9:30
Speaker 1: quickly telling you why I decided to support it. So
9:33
Speaker 1: I looked at it and I thought, well, first of all,
9:34
Speaker 1: their primary school kids, So how badly do they really
9:37
Speaker 1: need to be connected to somebody anyway? I know that
9:39
Speaker 1: there's a very small percentage of kids who may have
9:42
Speaker 1: really legitimate needs, and if that's the case, then perhaps
9:46
Speaker 1: the school can address that on a case by case basis.
9:48
Speaker 2: But the device is.
9:50
Speaker 1: Going to be implicated and at the foundation of inattention,
9:54
Speaker 1: behavior problems, bullying, difficulty, learning, processing, gaming, social issues. I mean,
10:02
Speaker 1: I just can't see any advantage to maintaining the status quo.
10:05
Speaker 1: I think the ban simply makes sense to help children
10:08
Speaker 1: to be focused, especially in those primary school years. What's
10:10
Speaker 1: the argument, the strongest argument against the ban and allowing
10:14
Speaker 1: autonomy in this area.
10:16
Speaker 3: I think, like you've alluded to, it's a really complex issue,
10:20
Speaker 3: that ban, and I think it's easy to.
10:22
Speaker 4: Get caught up in the headline.
10:23
Speaker 3: And I guess one of my arguments is a little
10:26
Speaker 3: bit political. I mean, the twelve million dollars on lockers
10:30
Speaker 3: for the ban in Victoria was one argument I thought
10:33
Speaker 3: as an investment of government funds, I think there could
10:38
Speaker 3: be better ones that teach children about how to regulate
10:42
Speaker 3: their usage and be those responsible users. Look at the
10:46
Speaker 3: curriculum around teaching about digital habits, I think is another potential.
10:52
Speaker 3: So I guess, yes, one is the sheer cost and
10:55
Speaker 3: the investment, but the other is the learning that takes place.
10:59
Speaker 3: And we know that with parenting and raising children generally,
11:03
Speaker 3: that we need to engage them in those decisions, and
11:07
Speaker 3: we need to give them a voice and a little
11:09
Speaker 3: bit of opportunity to show us that they're doing the
11:12
Speaker 3: right thing. So I know that's more of a personal
11:15
Speaker 3: position than a professional one, but I don't support it
11:19
Speaker 3: as a position, or I certainly wouldn't like to see it.
11:22
Speaker 4: You know, my children stopping using their.
11:24
Speaker 3: Devices because there's a band in place, I'd like them
11:26
Speaker 3: to have a bit of a deeper conversation around why
11:28
Speaker 3: we don't use them at school.
11:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we can actually probably do both, and
11:33
Speaker 1: my position is maybe a little more moderate than I
11:35
Speaker 1: made it out to be.
11:36
Speaker 2: The twelve million dollars on lockers is preposterous. There has
11:38
Speaker 2: to be a better way to do it than that.
11:40
Speaker 1: But aside from the twelve million dollar spend that some
11:42
Speaker 1: lucky subcontractor picked up to supply all of those lockers
11:47
Speaker 1: to schools, it seems to me that we have a
11:49
Speaker 1: conversation with the kids and we explain what the expectations
11:52
Speaker 1: than rules are and if the children in class choose
11:55
Speaker 1: not to follow those rules and expectations in the same
11:57
Speaker 1: way that no swinging on chairs, for example, we don't
12:00
Speaker 1: just ban chairs because the kids are swinging on it.
12:02
Speaker 1: So we need to do both. But my sense is
12:04
Speaker 1: that by removing the distraction. It just makes it so
12:08
Speaker 1: much easier to do everything else that matters, and as
12:10
Speaker 1: children get older, they begin to develop the willpower and
12:14
Speaker 1: a deeper understanding as well. Anyway, I'm grateful for you
12:17
Speaker 1: sharing that. Let's move on to my big question here.
12:21
Speaker 1: This is one of the things that I've been wrestling
12:23
Speaker 1: with for years, and it really played out in relation
12:26
Speaker 1: to what teachers were saying about students about our children
12:30
Speaker 1: and their technology use. So essentially, when it comes to
12:33
Speaker 1: tech in the home, we are as a nation just
12:37
Speaker 1: dismal keeping to the current National Screen Recommendation guidelines. Now
12:42
Speaker 1: I have some pretty strong opinions about that, which we'll
12:43
Speaker 1: probably get into shortly anyway. But Anthea Rhodes has collected
12:47
Speaker 1: a whole lot of data. She runs the Child Health
12:49
Speaker 1: Poll through the Royal Children's Hospital, and her data shows
12:52
Speaker 1: that the typical Aussie child spends more than four and
12:55
Speaker 1: a half hours per day on screens. Now that's not
12:59
Speaker 1: including pandemic parenting. That's not including the screen time that
13:01
Speaker 1: we're now experiencing or have been experiencing, as children are
13:04
Speaker 1: on their devices all day for school, so that's not
13:07
Speaker 1: including school work. So two questions about the child health
13:11
Speaker 1: pol data. First of all, why are we struggling with
13:14
Speaker 1: this so badly? Like our guidelines just too stringent? Why
13:17
Speaker 1: do we seem to just overachieve in terms of the
13:20
Speaker 1: amount of time that our children are spending on screens?
13:21
Speaker 1: But second, how big of a deal is it that
13:23
Speaker 1: these guidelines are being ignored?
13:25
Speaker 4: Yeah?
13:25
Speaker 3: I love this question because I think there's a few issues,
13:28
Speaker 3: and I'll start by emphasizing that it does matter and
13:31
Speaker 3: we can't keep ignoring that we have a problem with
13:34
Speaker 3: following these guidelines and concerns about these screens and digital
13:37
Speaker 3: media aren't going away, and they are pretty much the
13:40
Speaker 3: number one worry of us all for the next generation.
13:43
Speaker 4: So I think, as well as expecting.
13:45
Speaker 3: Changes from teachers, parents, and students and kids in this
13:49
Speaker 3: part of the change might come from those recommendations that
13:52
Speaker 3: are in place. It may be that the minutage and
13:55
Speaker 3: the time based guidelines are perhaps too narrow and this
13:59
Speaker 3: approach just isn't keeping with the dynamic and complex situation.
14:04
Speaker 3: So the American Academy of Pediatrics anticipated that, you know,
14:07
Speaker 3: the generational shift that was coming, and amended their guidelines
14:11
Speaker 3: to not only provide those time based recommendations, but also
14:15
Speaker 3: broader advice about forming healthy media habits and also the
14:19
Speaker 3: quality of screen time, recognizing that an hour of watching
14:23
Speaker 3: YouTube videos is not really the same as an hour
14:26
Speaker 3: spent doing in digital art program right, and these current
14:29
Speaker 3: guidelines don't reflect those differences. I firmly believe that the
14:33
Speaker 3: problem isn't the technology in the media. It is our
14:36
Speaker 3: own inability to understand those benefits and perils, and that's
14:41
Speaker 3: what leads to the problems. So those time based restrictions
14:45
Speaker 3: don't really teach those subtleties, and in that way, I'm
14:48
Speaker 3: not sure that they are the most sustainable solutions. So
14:51
Speaker 3: later I'd love to have a chat about alternate ways
14:54
Speaker 3: we could set guidelines and teach the healthy screen time habits.
14:58
Speaker 1: Let's save into that just now, because I've a for
15:00
Speaker 1: the last ten years, I feel like I've been saying
15:02
Speaker 1: again and again and it's not about how much, it's
15:04
Speaker 1: about what type I mean. Recently, Andrew Shobulski from the
15:07
Speaker 1: Oxford Institute of Technology Institute at Oxford, Andy is just
15:14
Speaker 1: one of the really interesting thinkers in this area, and
15:16
Speaker 1: he said, we don't have conversations with our kids about
15:19
Speaker 1: how much food time they've had today. You know, we
15:21
Speaker 1: understand the difference between food that should be consumed consistently
15:24
Speaker 1: every day and food that should be consumed maybe once
15:26
Speaker 1: a week or once a month, or every so often,
15:29
Speaker 1: you know, some sometimes food. And it seems to me
15:31
Speaker 1: that we've kind of missed that nuance when it comes
15:35
Speaker 1: to screens, and we've essentially said screens bad, you're reading
15:40
Speaker 1: a book good, without recognizing the complexity associated with the tasks.
15:45
Speaker 2: And that kind of thing.
15:45
Speaker 1: So I've always had a really big gripe with the
15:48
Speaker 1: American Association of Pediatrics or the Australian governmental guidelines around this.
15:53
Speaker 1: Just to me, it's nonsense to say this many hours
15:56
Speaker 1: is okay, and this many hours are not recognize of
16:00
Speaker 1: course that there's unequivocal data from around the world that
16:02
Speaker 1: once you get north of about sort of four or
16:04
Speaker 1: five hours a day of screen time, it is going
16:07
Speaker 1: to have a negative developmental impact on well being and
16:11
Speaker 1: on other variables in children's lives.
16:15
Speaker 3: You're right, the idea of screen time at the moment
16:17
Speaker 3: obscures that richness. We've got some great people in Australia
16:21
Speaker 3: like Christie Goodwin and Professor Tony Oakley that also take
16:25
Speaker 3: that similar philosophy, and the premise is that there are
16:28
Speaker 3: productive and positive uses of digital media and devices, and
16:31
Speaker 3: then there's other more passive and even dangerous sort of
16:34
Speaker 3: activities when you do too much of them. You know,
16:37
Speaker 3: there's a time for screens, but it shouldn't be at
16:40
Speaker 3: the expense of time spent playing outside or connecting with
16:44
Speaker 3: people in real time. So we also, you know, even
16:47
Speaker 3: in the Growing Up Digital Australia research, we looked at
16:51
Speaker 3: the well being of kids across the whole breadth of outcomes,
16:55
Speaker 3: but we can't and shouldn't definitively or exclusively attribute that
17:00
Speaker 3: to their technology usage. And I think sometimes it's a
17:04
Speaker 3: confusing position. It's not a binary one or the other.
17:08
Speaker 3: I think if we can teach that balanced approach, that's
17:11
Speaker 3: the way that I'd like to see this conversation going forward.
17:14
Speaker 1: What are the risk factors and protective factors of kids
17:16
Speaker 1: who are using screens too much when you look at
17:18
Speaker 1: demographic characteristics, And I know this is a very blunt instrument,
17:21
Speaker 1: but who are the kids that are most at risk?
17:22
Speaker 1: Who are the kids that are most likely to be
17:24
Speaker 1: just fine regardless of their screen time habits.
17:27
Speaker 3: You know, in previous research as well as ours. It
17:30
Speaker 3: has been shown that screen time is higher in families
17:33
Speaker 3: with lower incomes, and they're also unfortunately the most at
17:37
Speaker 3: risk of those negative consequences, so like the poorer friendships
17:41
Speaker 3: and the lower academic performance and concentration, and those negative
17:45
Speaker 3: consequences do compound and get worse over time, and so
17:49
Speaker 3: often does the usage.
17:50
Speaker 4: So it's quite a slippery slope.
17:52
Speaker 3: And if you haven't got those right habits from the start,
17:56
Speaker 3: it's much harder to wind that usage back once you
17:58
Speaker 3: realize there's a problem.
18:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that I've looked at fairly carefully here,
18:03
Speaker 1: and I feel so frustrated and so desperate for those
18:06
Speaker 1: families that are struggling with this. Is they might have
18:08
Speaker 1: lower incomes, but they're usually working longer hours to get
18:11
Speaker 1: those lower incomes, but they're in the lower paid jobs.
18:13
Speaker 1: Or we've got a single mom or a single dad
18:15
Speaker 1: who's just not able to be at home or is
18:18
Speaker 1: working two jobs or doing everything that they can to
18:20
Speaker 1: provide for their family, but therefore they're not able to
18:22
Speaker 1: provide the level of supervision that they want. So we've
18:24
Speaker 1: got all these structural things that are making it so
18:26
Speaker 1: hard for these well frankly for the poorer families, you know,
18:30
Speaker 1: the lower socioeconomic group, who want to be helping their children,
18:34
Speaker 1: and so they're going to work to earn the money
18:36
Speaker 1: to look after things. But that means that the children
18:38
Speaker 1: are often left in front, left to their own devices, literally,
18:42
Speaker 1: which means that screen time goes up.
18:44
Speaker 2: And it's one of those interesting things.
18:45
Speaker 1: In the data where we can't necessarily say, well, it's
18:47
Speaker 1: because of screen time, or it's because of X, Y
18:50
Speaker 1: or z, because all of these factors work together. Kids
18:53
Speaker 1: that come from these perhaps poorer backgrounds may struggle a
18:56
Speaker 1: little more socially, or struggle a little more academically anyway,
19:00
Speaker 1: and then we're throwing extra screen time in on top
19:02
Speaker 1: of that, and people saying, oh, the kids are on
19:03
Speaker 1: screens too much.
19:04
Speaker 2: But it could be any number of these factors.
19:06
Speaker 1: But it seems that all these kinds of things they
19:08
Speaker 1: hang together, they mix in together. Would that be a
19:10
Speaker 1: reasonable thing to say, I think so.
19:12
Speaker 3: I mean, unfortunately, we do know that in that digital divide,
19:16
Speaker 3: the traditional digital divide was perhaps the kids that could
19:20
Speaker 3: afford technology and might not be able to But now
19:23
Speaker 3: we've got the digital divide going across with that educational divide.
19:27
Speaker 4: So we're seeing the higher and lower performing students.
19:30
Speaker 3: The gap between those students is increasing, and then often
19:33
Speaker 3: we've got those same children coming to school with the
19:37
Speaker 3: poor screen time habits. They may have had a little
19:40
Speaker 3: bit more of the digital babysitter. And once again, I'm
19:42
Speaker 3: so cautious in saying that, because we all do it,
19:46
Speaker 3: you know where all I'm really really trying to be
19:48
Speaker 3: kind to parents in understanding this issue. There's no nothing
19:52
Speaker 3: to be gained from allocating blame or anything like that.
19:56
Speaker 3: But if children do see it as a source of
19:58
Speaker 3: entertainment and have unregulated, unfettered use of these devices, it's
20:04
Speaker 3: quite hard to wind that back. And we're putting that
20:07
Speaker 3: on teachers. Teachers aren't trained to deal with exclusively online bullying, harassment,
20:14
Speaker 3: the issues of distraction taking screens off them.
20:18
Speaker 4: They're not trained in that. Neither are parents.
20:21
Speaker 3: But there's a real confusion we found with the teachers
20:24
Speaker 3: in our study that where does their jurisdiction end. Where
20:28
Speaker 3: can they influence parents and try to help them understand
20:32
Speaker 3: the risks and perhaps a better way to use screams
20:35
Speaker 3: in the home.
20:36
Speaker 2: It's a vexed issue.
20:37
Speaker 1: It kind of leads into a bigger conversation, and I
20:40
Speaker 1: want to spend a couple of minutes on this because
20:42
Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to solve the problems of
20:44
Speaker 1: the world, just highlighting the systemic and structural challenges. There
20:48
Speaker 1: are some fears, and I mean really almost vitriolic academic
20:53
Speaker 1: arguments that are going on in psychology right now, primarily
20:56
Speaker 1: between Andy Shabulski, who I mentioned earlier, and he's at
21:00
Speaker 1: Oxford with one of his collaborators, Amy Auburn, and I
21:03
Speaker 1: don't know if it's Twinge or twin Gay. I have
21:06
Speaker 1: to ask her at San Diego and her collaborators and
21:09
Speaker 1: one of the world's foremost psychology thinkers, John Hate has
21:12
Speaker 1: just joined the fray and seems to be aligning himself
21:15
Speaker 1: fairly closely with what Gene twin Gey is saying, but essentially,
21:19
Speaker 1: and he's saying that how many potatoes you eat each
21:22
Speaker 1: day probably have a bigger effect on well being than
21:25
Speaker 1: how much screen time you're getting. And Gen's saying that
21:27
Speaker 1: life changed in twenty twelve when screens became ubiquitous and
21:30
Speaker 1: everybody had them. Now, anecdotally, it feels as if Jane's right,
21:35
Speaker 1: and the teachers in your study in the Growing Up
21:37
Speaker 1: Digital Australia Report almost without question leaned in that direction.
21:42
Speaker 1: One of them said, and I quote, there is increasing
21:45
Speaker 1: anxiety among students. Some cases are severe. Twenty five years
21:50
Speaker 1: ago this was very rare, with one or two students
21:53
Speaker 1: in an entire school suffering anxiety. Now it's common to
21:56
Speaker 1: have several students with depression and anxiety in every year group.
22:00
Speaker 1: And another one said, as a teacher, I've certainly noticed
22:02
Speaker 1: the large number of students in my classes with diagnosed
22:05
Speaker 1: mental health issues. I've also noticed many students struggled to
22:08
Speaker 1: not be in constant contact with their phone. So what
22:12
Speaker 1: I saw when I was reading through the Growing Up
22:15
Speaker 1: Digital Australia Technical Report was that teachers essentially are saying, yep,
22:20
Speaker 1: things are getting worse in the classroom. Children are struggling
22:23
Speaker 1: more psychologically and emotionally and socially and in all these
22:27
Speaker 1: other ways. The classroom condition has become more complex, and
22:31
Speaker 1: they're really siding with Gene Twinge and saying, and we
22:33
Speaker 1: think that it's happened in the last few years.
22:35
Speaker 2: And we think that it's because of screens.
22:37
Speaker 1: So what advice would you offer to parents and educators
22:39
Speaker 1: around this issue. I mean, is it screens, is gene
22:43
Speaker 1: right or is Andy right? Where do you use it
22:45
Speaker 1: position yourself? And what kind of advice do you give
22:48
Speaker 1: around this?
22:49
Speaker 3: Oh? I think, like most things, the truth is probably
22:52
Speaker 3: somewhere in the middle of those polarizing, binary sort of options.
22:57
Speaker 4: But I mean, with her findings with the have smartphones
23:01
Speaker 4: destroyed a generation?
23:02
Speaker 3: I can see how tweenoys research has been conceived as
23:06
Speaker 3: one side and an alarmist.
23:07
Speaker 4: And maybe a step too far.
23:10
Speaker 3: But she also makes the point that her research is correlational,
23:13
Speaker 3: so it didn't intend to look at a causal link
23:17
Speaker 3: between screen time and the negative consequences. But a bit
23:21
Speaker 3: like ours in Growing Up Digital, we don't see causation either.
23:25
Speaker 3: So we're looking at what Australian educators are saying about
23:28
Speaker 3: the well being outcomes of kids across a whole range
23:31
Speaker 3: of outcomes. They're also looking at the changes in screen use.
23:36
Speaker 3: Now those have both gone in a really common sense direction.
23:40
Speaker 3: So while we've seen the screen time go up and
23:42
Speaker 3: the distraction in the classroom increase, we can't still say
23:47
Speaker 3: that they're causally linked. But should we be listening to
23:51
Speaker 3: those people that spend a lot of time with our
23:53
Speaker 3: kids about their concerns.
23:56
Speaker 4: Absolutely we should.
23:57
Speaker 1: So let's get a bit geeky for just a sey then,
24:00
Speaker 1: because what I find really compelling about Twiney's research is
24:04
Speaker 1: that she's using very large data sets. She's doing longitudinal research,
24:09
Speaker 1: which it doesn't say that A is causing B, but
24:12
Speaker 1: she's got a whole lot of variables that are all
24:14
Speaker 1: pointing in the same direction. And what they're all essentially
24:18
Speaker 1: pointing to is that. In fact, the way that I
24:20
Speaker 1: kind of try to balance the two arguments is I
24:23
Speaker 1: like her argument. I think that it's stronger. But Andy's
24:25
Speaker 1: a really sharp researcher and his insights are I mean,
24:28
Speaker 1: he's not doing this to be contentious.
24:30
Speaker 2: He's a smart and switched on guy.
24:32
Speaker 1: I've had privilege of listening to him at conferences previously
24:35
Speaker 1: and even having some one on one conversations with him
24:37
Speaker 1: at those conferences around some of these issues, so I
24:40
Speaker 1: know how sharp this guy is.
24:42
Speaker 2: He's basically saying, you.
24:43
Speaker 1: Can't blame screens, you might as well blame how many
24:45
Speaker 1: potatoes you eat, and she's saying, well, hang on, screens
24:49
Speaker 1: are implicated in all of this. And as I look
24:51
Speaker 1: at what I feel is that there's a common element
24:55
Speaker 1: underneath all of these issues. It may not actually be
24:57
Speaker 1: screens that are causing social problems. It may not actually
24:59
Speaker 1: be screens causing distraction and drama and all sorts of
25:03
Speaker 1: these dilemmas, because we can't say that it's causal, but
25:07
Speaker 1: we can say that screens are implicated and potentially at
25:10
Speaker 1: the foundation of each of these issues. Do you think
25:14
Speaker 1: that that's a reasonable position to maintain.
25:17
Speaker 3: I do, and that's certainly the premise of our research.
25:20
Speaker 3: Despite it being anecdotal. We did observe trends happening at
25:24
Speaker 3: the same time, and that's compelling.
25:26
Speaker 1: So I guess that's probably a pretty neat place for
25:29
Speaker 1: us to wrap things up. There's clearly good. We've talked
25:31
Speaker 1: about good in the classroom and in life. When it
25:33
Speaker 1: comes to screens, we've talked about the bad. And while
25:36
Speaker 1: we haven't dwelt on that, everybody's aware that there are
25:38
Speaker 1: some real challenges associated with screen usage, and we've talked
25:42
Speaker 1: about a bit of the ugly as well. But if
25:43
Speaker 1: you're going to give maybe your last advice to parents
25:47
Speaker 1: and teachers who are grappling with how to best manage screens,
25:51
Speaker 1: what would you advise where do you think the Growing
25:55
Speaker 1: Up Digital Australia report points us in terms of helping
25:59
Speaker 1: our children who have foid those bad and ugly outcomes
26:01
Speaker 1: and get the very best out of their screen you see,
26:03
Speaker 1: especially since there's so much of it as a result
26:05
Speaker 1: of COVID nineteen.
26:07
Speaker 3: For my family, I love screen time followed by green time,
26:11
Speaker 3: So really the balance in my family really matters. But
26:14
Speaker 3: whatever you choose, whether it be the time based guidelines
26:18
Speaker 3: or whatever it is that you choose, try and give
26:21
Speaker 3: kids a voice and some buy in at the decision
26:24
Speaker 3: making table about this. If they help to make the rules,
26:27
Speaker 3: as we know, they'd be a lot more likely to
26:29
Speaker 3: follow them. Try to follow them as consistently as possible.
26:32
Speaker 3: As tempting as it is when kids can be begging
26:36
Speaker 3: and bargaining for more time, or you really do need
26:39
Speaker 3: that break, when you need to get something done, try
26:41
Speaker 3: to be as firm and consistent as possible.
26:44
Speaker 2: Great.
26:44
Speaker 1: So the takeaway really is know what's going on, set
26:47
Speaker 1: appropriate limits, make sure that your kids are using screens
26:50
Speaker 1: more for creation and connection than consumption, and do your
26:54
Speaker 1: best to just be across it. It's less about the
26:57
Speaker 1: device and more about what they're doing. In their lives.
27:00
Speaker 1: They can have a whole and balanced life. I mean,
27:02
Speaker 1: it almost sounds like it's getting back to common sense.
27:05
Speaker 3: It is, I think when we look at what the
27:07
Speaker 3: antidotes to screens, which is why I love this green
27:10
Speaker 3: time followed by screen time, you know, being outside.
27:13
Speaker 4: They don't have to be one or the other.
27:15
Speaker 3: A great afternoon probably for a child is you know,
27:18
Speaker 3: making a pick collage of some of their favorite photos,
27:21
Speaker 3: followed by playing on the swing and then maybe reading
27:23
Speaker 3: a book, cooking a meal with a parent. So I
27:25
Speaker 3: think we'd all strive for that balance in our families.
27:28
Speaker 2: It sounds like a good afternoon for me, let alone
27:30
Speaker 2: for the kids. I like the sound of that. Amy.
27:33
Speaker 1: It's been an absolute delight talking with you. I really
27:36
Speaker 1: appreciate generosity and sharing this research with us, and we're
27:40
Speaker 1: too next with the Growing Up Digital Australia research. I
27:44
Speaker 1: can't imagine that this is a one.
27:45
Speaker 4: Off, No, it's not.
27:47
Speaker 3: So Phase two is actually going to be giving this
27:51
Speaker 3: voice to parents and grandparents. We really want to understand
27:55
Speaker 3: the issues from their perspective. We feel like I've got
27:57
Speaker 3: a reasonable handle now on what's going on in schools,
28:01
Speaker 3: but we want to understand more about what parents are
28:04
Speaker 3: seeing in their children and the kinds of relationships they're
28:07
Speaker 3: observing between the children's screen time and any changes that
28:11
Speaker 3: are taking place. I urge all parents and grandparents to
28:14
Speaker 3: get on board and have a go at it when
28:17
Speaker 3: it comes out later in the year hopefully.
28:18
Speaker 1: Well that sounds great, make sure you send that my
28:20
Speaker 1: way and I'll share it with my followers on Facebook
28:23
Speaker 1: and encourage them all to give you the very best
28:25
Speaker 1: data that we can.
28:27
Speaker 4: It was so great talking to you.
28:28
Speaker 2: Thank you, Amy, It's been a delight talking with you.
28:30
Speaker 2: Really appreciate it.
28:31
Speaker 1: This is doctor Amy Graham, the lead investigator in the
28:34
Speaker 1: Growing Up Digital Australia Report from the Gonsky Institute for
28:39
Speaker 1: Education at the University of New South Wales. Thank you
28:43
Speaker 1: so much, Amy, and we'll have more special interviews and
28:46
Speaker 1: conversations as the podcast grows and develops. You've probably noticed
28:49
Speaker 1: that we're doing a few things differently there. If you've
28:51
Speaker 1: enjoyed this interview and the podcast generally, please jump on
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Speaker 1: more information Happy families dot com, dot you, or my
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