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SMNTY Classics: Sex and Gender Based Violence in the Democratic Republic of Congo · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Aye and Samantha and welcome to stuff
0:07
Speaker 1: I Never told your protection of I Heart Radio. Today
0:18
Speaker 1: we have an episode we wanted to rerun because we
0:21
Speaker 1: recently talked about the d r C, the Democratic Republic
0:25
Speaker 1: of Congo UM in in Activists around the World segment
0:29
Speaker 1: and it made us remember a really good episode, fantastic
0:33
Speaker 1: episode we did in the Before Times Before Times, Yes
0:37
Speaker 1: UM about gender based violence and in that country, and
0:43
Speaker 1: we had two interviews on there that were just fantastic,
0:48
Speaker 1: and it was one of the last things we did
0:50
Speaker 1: in the studio. But COVID was happening at that point
0:55
Speaker 1: because we talked about it in there, UM, and we
0:58
Speaker 1: also talked about um so off care and uh, we
1:03
Speaker 1: should check we should check back in on them. I
1:04
Speaker 1: would love to see see what they're doing now, where
1:06
Speaker 1: they are now. But this was also a listener helped
1:09
Speaker 1: us bring this all together. So we always love suggestions
1:13
Speaker 1: like this about who we should be talking to, things
1:15
Speaker 1: we should be talking about, So really appreciate it, UM,
1:19
Speaker 1: and please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie
1:28
Speaker 1: and Samantha and welcome to stuff I'll never told your
1:30
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. So today's episode I'm very
1:45
Speaker 1: excited to present to you and it's actually, um, it
1:49
Speaker 1: was a listener that got in touch with us and
1:51
Speaker 1: facilitate this whole thing. And we'll get more into that
1:54
Speaker 1: and in a second, but we're going to be talking
1:55
Speaker 1: about sex and gender based violence or STVV in a
2:00
Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of CONGO or the DRC and trigger warning
2:05
Speaker 1: for a discussion of sex and inner based violence, sexual
2:08
Speaker 1: assault and suicidality. And um, this one is so valuable
2:14
Speaker 1: and worth listening to. But though the topics that we
2:17
Speaker 1: discuss with our guests in this one are are very intense. Um,
2:22
Speaker 1: So just keep in mind your mental health when choosing
2:27
Speaker 1: to listen or not listen, are what time, because you
2:30
Speaker 1: know sometimes you're just not a good place right now,
2:31
Speaker 1: which you might be later. I just want to put
2:34
Speaker 1: that out there, and just to put it out there,
2:36
Speaker 1: I guess are really optimistic, yes, in such dire circumstances,
2:41
Speaker 1: it seems, and they had put a lot of positivity
2:43
Speaker 1: and what they're talking about as well. So it is
2:46
Speaker 1: it is heavy, but at the same time, it is
2:48
Speaker 1: still hopeful, Yes, absolutely, and it is not all bad
2:51
Speaker 1: at all. And so okay, this was a suggestion from
2:57
Speaker 1: a listener named Rebecca, who volunteers with a nonprofit organization,
3:01
Speaker 1: Global Outreach Doctors, and she said, I'm going to use
3:06
Speaker 1: her words now. This organization quote deploys volunteer medical doctors
3:09
Speaker 1: and nurses, at mental health professionals and midwives and integrative
3:12
Speaker 1: health professionals like trauma trained acupuncturists to high need, low
3:16
Speaker 1: resource global regions affected by natural disasters, refugee crises, war zones,
3:21
Speaker 1: and famine, such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, Kenya, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Iraq, Nepal, Lesbos,
3:27
Speaker 1: and the Syrian border. She went on, the organization just
3:31
Speaker 1: completed an assessment mission dealing with a gender based violence
3:34
Speaker 1: in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The d r C
3:37
Speaker 1: has been labeled by several organizations, including the UN as
3:40
Speaker 1: quote one of the worst places in the world to
3:42
Speaker 1: be a woman. During focus groups. In the assessment of
3:45
Speaker 1: current medical capabilities in the eastern part of the country,
3:48
Speaker 1: the go docs assessment team found that mental health care
3:51
Speaker 1: for victims of sexual and gender based violence in the
3:53
Speaker 1: DRC is severely lacking. According to the WHO as often,
3:58
Speaker 1: there were only points zero eight psychiatrists and zero point
4:02
Speaker 1: five psychiatric nurses per one hundred thousand people in the
4:05
Speaker 1: d r C are less than sixty five psychiatrists and
4:07
Speaker 1: four hundred five psychiatric nurses in a country of seventy
4:11
Speaker 1: eight million people. So Rebecca put us in touch with
4:14
Speaker 1: Cocotaine the go docs VP of Planning and Logistics, and
4:18
Speaker 1: Kim Spray bs N r n c N, who are
4:20
Speaker 1: both on the assessment team. Before we get into that,
4:23
Speaker 1: we want to do a brief rundown of the situation. There.
4:25
Speaker 1: Officially established as a Belgian colony in nineteen o eight,
4:29
Speaker 1: what was then the Republic of Congo gained independence in
4:32
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. The region has since experienced political and social
4:36
Speaker 1: unrest and instability, violence and periods of civil war, and
4:39
Speaker 1: millions have been displaced. Rape and sexual violence are frequently
4:43
Speaker 1: employed against women and violence as a method of control, intimidation,
4:46
Speaker 1: and humiliation, so for most survivors, justice isn't really an option.
4:51
Speaker 1: The perpetrators ranged from soldiers to teachers to neighbors, and
4:55
Speaker 1: partly because of that, most women and girls don't report it.
4:59
Speaker 1: Those that do might be cast out from their homes
5:01
Speaker 1: and families. And on one day in noven between the
5:04
Speaker 1: twelve hundreds were raped and schools are frequent targets. According
5:09
Speaker 1: to Congolese women's groups, things like an ineffective justice system,
5:13
Speaker 1: poor governance, and women's inferior social position all play into
5:17
Speaker 1: the sexual violence in the d r C, and while
5:19
Speaker 1: it is under reported, the numbers we do have are disturbing.
5:24
Speaker 1: Recent obtained statistics revealed that about eleven cases of sexual
5:28
Speaker 1: violence are documented each month in various health zones, which
5:32
Speaker 1: amounts to an average of thirty six victims a day,
5:35
Speaker 1: and the most affected population is comprised of girls aged
5:38
Speaker 1: between ten to seventeen, although ten percent of the victims
5:41
Speaker 1: are less than ten years old. Congolese women constitute the
5:45
Speaker 1: DRC population. Their visibility and contribution to food security for
5:49
Speaker 1: the survival and running of the Congolese society is undeniable
5:52
Speaker 1: and internationally recognized. However, studies and recent investigations show that
5:56
Speaker 1: the position of Congolese women in several dominions of national
5:59
Speaker 1: life remains low in comparison with men. Access of women
6:03
Speaker 1: to decision making tables, as well as to national economical
6:07
Speaker 1: resources and production factors remains very limited. The situation has
6:11
Speaker 1: deteriorated in latter years with the negative effects of wars
6:13
Speaker 1: in repetition to the current persistent insecurity. In fact, sixty
6:18
Speaker 1: one point two percent of Congolese women live underneath the
6:21
Speaker 1: poverty threshold against fifty one point three percent of men,
6:24
Speaker 1: while forty four percent of women cannot attain economical timeliness.
6:28
Speaker 1: And Furthermore, in the d r C, the situation of
6:30
Speaker 1: gender based violence, particularly domestic violence on women and young girls,
6:34
Speaker 1: is very worrying. Collected national data on various forms of
6:38
Speaker 1: violence against women demonstrates how it strongly correlates with the
6:41
Speaker 1: under development in conflict battered DRC. Gender based violence, including
6:46
Speaker 1: sexual violence, has reached epidemic levels. In alone, close to
6:50
Speaker 1: twenty six thousand, eight hundred cases were registered, but many
6:53
Speaker 1: more have not been reported for fear of retaliation, because
6:56
Speaker 1: of the limited monitoring and reporting systems in place, which
6:59
Speaker 1: don't cover all affected areas in the country, and because
7:02
Speaker 1: of security and access constraints. Humanitarian partners have been advocating
7:06
Speaker 1: for more funds to be able to provide survivors with
7:09
Speaker 1: post rape kits within seventy two hours in safe spaces
7:12
Speaker 1: where they can get dedicated psychosocial support. In the twenty
7:16
Speaker 1: nineteen Humanitarian Response Plan requires one point seven billion dollars
7:20
Speaker 1: to reach nine million people. Of those, five point seven
7:23
Speaker 1: million people require protection services. To date, the appeal remains
7:27
Speaker 1: only twelve percent funded. And we can't forget the consequences
7:31
Speaker 1: beyond the trauma of rape, like dropping out of school, pregnancy,
7:33
Speaker 1: forced marriage, s t I S. Things like that. And
7:36
Speaker 1: just so you know, early marriage is a common practice
7:39
Speaker 1: and an estimated seventy four percent of women between fifteen
7:42
Speaker 1: and nineteen years of age are married, and mostly in
7:44
Speaker 1: the rural area. The legal minimum age of marriage is
7:47
Speaker 1: fifteen for women in eighteen for men, and because of this,
7:50
Speaker 1: in the more rural areas, girls as young as thirteen
7:53
Speaker 1: are forced into marriages in order to provide for their families.
7:56
Speaker 1: So clearly this is something we should be talking about.
7:59
Speaker 1: But it's one sing reading the statistics and it's another
8:03
Speaker 1: thing being on the ground talking to those who are impacted.
8:07
Speaker 1: We talked with two amazing women, Coco Tang and Camplice Spray. Seriously,
8:12
Speaker 1: there are resumes outstanding, astounding about what they experienced when
8:20
Speaker 1: they went on an assessment mission around sex and gender
8:23
Speaker 1: based bilence in the DRC. And we're going to get
8:25
Speaker 1: right into that, but first we're gonna take a quick
8:28
Speaker 1: break for word from our sponsor and we're back. Thank
8:43
Speaker 1: you sponsor. So let's let our guests introduce themselves. My
8:48
Speaker 1: name is Coco. I'm a paramedic. I'm currently the operations
8:52
Speaker 1: director for Global Outreach Doctors. UM. I also worked with
8:55
Speaker 1: a few other different NGOs. I'm usually practice over so
9:00
Speaker 1: I'm just getting out of my Afghanistan contract, kind of
9:03
Speaker 1: my way to Norway before I go back to the US,
9:07
Speaker 1: and then I'll throw the ball over to Kim. Hey. Yeah,
9:11
Speaker 1: my name is Kim and I'm an emergency nurse by
9:14
Speaker 1: training volunteer with Global Outreach Doctors and have a little
9:18
Speaker 1: bit of experience working in West Africa as well. Yeah,
9:24
Speaker 1: you both were kind enough to send along your resumes
9:27
Speaker 1: and they were super impressed. They were very impressed. It
9:30
Speaker 1: made me feel very very Um. I'm not accomplished or something.
9:34
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave at that. Um. But how did
9:38
Speaker 1: you How did you get into this line of work?
9:44
Speaker 1: So I first became an emergency medical technician when I
9:48
Speaker 1: was in undergrad UM partly because both my very Asian,
9:52
Speaker 1: very Chinese parents are m d pH ds and wanted
9:56
Speaker 1: me to be a doctor. So I had to have
9:57
Speaker 1: some kind of exposure to medicine, but also because being
10:00
Speaker 1: e m T paid better than other minimum wage college jobs.
10:03
Speaker 1: So that's what I did. And then when I got
10:05
Speaker 1: my born, I'm full Bright scholarship and fellowships to the
10:09
Speaker 1: Middle East. I was living in Jordan and then I
10:11
Speaker 1: was doing research on this Yeraron refugees and the ISIS issue.
10:14
Speaker 1: So I was working in this year and refugee camps,
10:16
Speaker 1: and then someone heard that I have medical skills, so
10:18
Speaker 1: I was like, do you want to volunteer for the
10:19
Speaker 1: border metavacs? And I was like sure, And that's how
10:22
Speaker 1: I kind of got started. And then I walked out
10:24
Speaker 1: of UM sort of that experience, realizing that there are
10:28
Speaker 1: these huge international crises that I can be a part of.
10:31
Speaker 1: And then that winter the typhoon Hyan hit the Philippines UM,
10:36
Speaker 1: so then I immediately signed up to volunteer there. And
10:38
Speaker 1: then as soon as I graduated, I went to Sierra
10:40
Speaker 1: Leone UM at the height of the Bowla crisis to
10:43
Speaker 1: do this community outreach thing, and then it just kind
10:46
Speaker 1: of snowballed from there. I think can can attest to
10:49
Speaker 1: this too, like once you kind of meet someone in
10:51
Speaker 1: this weird little community. You get networked and sucked in
10:54
Speaker 1: and then before you know it, all these organizations are
10:57
Speaker 1: asking if you are available for this mission or just
10:59
Speaker 1: some or availability for this other vision and stuff like that.
11:04
Speaker 1: Very true, yep. UM. So for me in terms of
11:07
Speaker 1: global health, UM, I actually was finishing my Bachelors of
11:11
Speaker 1: Nursing UM and was working full time as an e
11:15
Speaker 1: our nurse, which is three twelve hour shifts a week,
11:18
Speaker 1: and finishing my BS and I felt all of a
11:20
Speaker 1: sudden I had all this free time on my hands
11:22
Speaker 1: and was kind of bored and UM. So it was
11:25
Speaker 1: the beginning of the fourteen A bowler crisis. And I
11:28
Speaker 1: put my appetition out the U S A I D
11:31
Speaker 1: and I was accepted by an m g O UM
11:34
Speaker 1: and signed on for six weeks and ended up staying
11:36
Speaker 1: for two years in mist Africa. UM. And so that's
11:40
Speaker 1: kind of how this whole thing has started for me. UM.
11:43
Speaker 1: And now I'm getting multiple master's degrees in the field
11:47
Speaker 1: UM helping to continue. That's awesome. And UM. One of
11:52
Speaker 1: the reasons we brought you on today that we wanted
11:56
Speaker 1: to hear from you, is I one of your coworkers.
12:00
Speaker 1: I guess Rebecca reached out to me and said, you
12:02
Speaker 1: should really be talking about sex and gender based violence
12:06
Speaker 1: in the d r C, which is something that both
12:09
Speaker 1: of you have experienced with have seen firsthand. Um, could
12:13
Speaker 1: you give us sort of a for for listeners, maybe
12:17
Speaker 1: a one on one of what's going on there? Yes,
12:23
Speaker 1: but sort of before we jump into that, I think
12:25
Speaker 1: it'll be good to preface this with, you know, like
12:28
Speaker 1: for us, we were just kind of there for like
12:31
Speaker 1: a two week thing, like, this isn't our reality, and
12:34
Speaker 1: we're not you know, like the experts on it by
12:36
Speaker 1: any means. They're certainly a lot more people who are
12:39
Speaker 1: more qualified to speak about it than us. Um, So
12:41
Speaker 1: we're just kind of coming at it with the perspective of,
12:44
Speaker 1: you know, like a two week medical mission volunteer type
12:47
Speaker 1: of point of view, if that makes any sense, Right,
12:49
Speaker 1: That's why you were sent there, right, sort of a
12:52
Speaker 1: mission to to understand the scope of the problem. Perhaps, Okay,
12:58
Speaker 1: So and Kim obviously feel for to jump in whenever
13:00
Speaker 1: you like. The original sort of idea for the mission, um,
13:05
Speaker 1: Like when this idea with birth was that we would
13:08
Speaker 1: go in for some kind of healthcare assessment and see
13:11
Speaker 1: where the gaps are UM in sort of like the
13:14
Speaker 1: healthcare infrastructure in health Hebrew, and this was something that
13:17
Speaker 1: Go Duck has done in other countries, so like earlier
13:19
Speaker 1: the year we did something similar for Ethiopia UM, but
13:23
Speaker 1: our local partner that we were working with UM it's
13:26
Speaker 1: called SUFFCO and it's this French acronym that I'm not
13:29
Speaker 1: going to try to pronounce because I'll mess it up,
13:30
Speaker 1: but it basically works with like these local girls and
13:33
Speaker 1: women and empowering them giving up skills sort of like
13:36
Speaker 1: navigating the social landscape of being a woman in DRC.
13:41
Speaker 1: So we kind of approached it with maybe like focusing
13:45
Speaker 1: on STDV, which is like sexual gender based violence, but
13:49
Speaker 1: obviously we didn't really know what we would find until
13:51
Speaker 1: we actually got on the ground and started doing our assessment.
13:55
Speaker 1: Can't we have anything to add? Yeah, no, I was
13:57
Speaker 1: just gonna go further from that, and then you know,
13:59
Speaker 1: once we arrived on the ground and realized UM, there
14:03
Speaker 1: are quite a lot of people, as Poco said, that
14:05
Speaker 1: are much more experienced in this and actually doing a
14:08
Speaker 1: lot of work in UM SGBV UM, which is a
14:11
Speaker 1: sexual gender based violence area, including Dr Mucuig who's there
14:16
Speaker 1: in um Mukabo, who's won the Nobel Prize and he's
14:19
Speaker 1: there doing all the like physical problems. So, um, we
14:22
Speaker 1: realized that the mental health issues related to both the
14:26
Speaker 1: SGBV and the ongoing war in um the d r
14:30
Speaker 1: C where how global outreach doctors could add some support
14:35
Speaker 1: to the area. Yeah, So I think one of the
14:38
Speaker 1: key issues that like became like immediately urgently apparent was
14:42
Speaker 1: that there was kind of like no psychosocial support for
14:45
Speaker 1: all of these like women or just victims of STVV
14:49
Speaker 1: in general. And I mean, God knowes it doesn't have
14:50
Speaker 1: to be female, but like I think the statistics are
14:54
Speaker 1: right now something like point eight like psychologists for like
14:58
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people in Congo, And I think when
15:01
Speaker 1: we were there, there was maybe like one psychologist that
15:04
Speaker 1: was working in the entire South Keybrew area. So this
15:07
Speaker 1: was like a completely kind of like foreign territory for
15:11
Speaker 1: I think the healthcare providers there. Um. And even in
15:14
Speaker 1: some of the interviews that we were doing, it's like,
15:16
Speaker 1: you know, what are you doing after your assault to
15:18
Speaker 1: kind of help you get over this? And a lot
15:20
Speaker 1: of the answers we got were just, oh, you know,
15:22
Speaker 1: maybe some support groups or sometimes I can talk to
15:25
Speaker 1: my friends, but it was just like a complete lack
15:29
Speaker 1: of this particular support, even so much so that the
15:33
Speaker 1: providers realize that this was an issue. People would show
15:37
Speaker 1: up to the hospitals and our clinics complaining of kind
15:40
Speaker 1: of generalized body aches or just your attention was another
15:44
Speaker 1: big one. Yeah, And really, if you dialed down, you
15:47
Speaker 1: found out that there was some trauma. Whether it was
15:51
Speaker 1: s GBV or related to the war, UM doesn't really matter.
15:54
Speaker 1: It was just a trauma. And really the the underlying
15:58
Speaker 1: problem was the mental health issues that nobody had been
16:00
Speaker 1: addressing there at all. In any way. Um, they don't
16:03
Speaker 1: have the medicines available, they have very limited UM support.
16:07
Speaker 1: The women don't really feel like they can even discuss
16:10
Speaker 1: it with each other very much. UM and certainly across
16:14
Speaker 1: gender lines, there's really no discussion on this problem. Yeah.
16:20
Speaker 1: When we were doing the research for this, they were
16:23
Speaker 1: just so so so many stories, UM so many women
16:27
Speaker 1: who were talking about it. And I do think that
16:29
Speaker 1: it's something that UM, we don't think about a lot.
16:32
Speaker 1: Is the mental trauma, like people who have experienced it do.
16:37
Speaker 1: But if if you haven't, then it just doesn't occur
16:41
Speaker 1: to people that this is a huge gap that that
16:43
Speaker 1: would cause all these other things. And I think in
16:47
Speaker 1: sort of that region in general, I mean, I think
16:51
Speaker 1: people kind of treated as like a tired or talked
16:54
Speaker 1: out topic almost. You know, like it's known that DRC
16:58
Speaker 1: is like the rage capital of the world just because
16:59
Speaker 1: of it's like violent in recent history. Um. But also
17:02
Speaker 1: like this issue has been eclipsed by a lot of
17:05
Speaker 1: other issues, you know, like the M twenty three rebellion
17:09
Speaker 1: or like the recently Bowl of crisis, Like this has
17:11
Speaker 1: sort of kind of become like a bad burner topic. Um.
17:15
Speaker 1: And even when I was coming off of the mission
17:16
Speaker 1: and reaching out to some of my journalist friends to
17:18
Speaker 1: see if there might be potential interest um on writing
17:22
Speaker 1: about kind of like what's going on with these women
17:24
Speaker 1: sort of like how years, decades after these conflicts, like
17:27
Speaker 1: there has been no respite for them, and the response
17:30
Speaker 1: has been, you know, there there will be no interest
17:32
Speaker 1: for such an article. It's like a talked out issue. UM.
17:36
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just like very sad that is
17:39
Speaker 1: so disappointing that it's something can be talked out when
17:41
Speaker 1: it's people's lives that we're talking and how they are
17:44
Speaker 1: affected on a daily basis in such an awful dramatic
17:48
Speaker 1: la that's really saddening. Yeah, and that does actually bring
17:54
Speaker 1: me to your question. I was going to ask later,
17:55
Speaker 1: but since it's a good segue, how what ways do
17:59
Speaker 1: you think the media could improve when talking about this?
18:04
Speaker 1: And um, what ways have they failed? Which might dovetail
18:09
Speaker 1: into each other probably oh, um, like in Congo in
18:16
Speaker 1: general or kind of like sexual violence as a broad
18:20
Speaker 1: topic both honestly, um and cann't if you don't mine,
18:25
Speaker 1: I'll start with sort of like a personal experience. So actually, um,
18:30
Speaker 1: before this Congo mission, I was in Ethiopia on a
18:33
Speaker 1: different mission, and I was actually sexually assaulted by Ethiopia
18:36
Speaker 1: and local there um. And it's like still an ongoing
18:39
Speaker 1: issue that I'm dealing with a lawyer in Ethiopia to
18:42
Speaker 1: try and see this case through even though like no,
18:44
Speaker 1: des might not be in Ethiopia, which is a complete nightmare.
18:47
Speaker 1: And I had just like reaching out to some of
18:51
Speaker 1: the local newspapers to see if there might be interest
18:54
Speaker 1: in sort of like outing this guy that lives among
18:57
Speaker 1: their midst and it is a well known sexual assaulter
19:01
Speaker 1: and you know, like thief of like foreign tourists. Um,
19:05
Speaker 1: I got like zero response. UM. And I think it's
19:08
Speaker 1: just like it's not popular news or it's like talked
19:12
Speaker 1: out news like I was saying before, like oh another
19:14
Speaker 1: person got assaulted. What were they thinking? You know? Or
19:17
Speaker 1: the other end of the spectrum is like who cares
19:20
Speaker 1: about that? Like that's so like a non issue and
19:25
Speaker 1: that I guess that's sort of like Ethiopian media. I
19:27
Speaker 1: can't really make a broad comment about like US media
19:31
Speaker 1: with writing a book about it or guess how much
19:33
Speaker 1: time three can What thoughts do you have? I don't know.
19:40
Speaker 1: I don't have really great thoughts on on that. UM
19:43
Speaker 1: too much really, Um, it is a huge topic and there's, um,
19:47
Speaker 1: you know, so many different parts of it right that
19:49
Speaker 1: you know, people need to be feel free to address
19:53
Speaker 1: their issues and recognize that there are issues. We also
19:56
Speaker 1: need to recognize that it's a problem in the world. UM.
20:00
Speaker 1: But UM, you know, our our DRC mission UM was
20:05
Speaker 1: kind of more focusing on how can we get the
20:09
Speaker 1: local providers to help recognize that this is a problem
20:13
Speaker 1: and then treated as such. I do kind of just
20:17
Speaker 1: want to add also, um, and this really hit hard
20:20
Speaker 1: for me when I was asked this question so one
20:22
Speaker 1: of the local women, I can't remember which one of
20:25
Speaker 1: us did her interview, um, but she was asking like,
20:29
Speaker 1: so are you she she you don't like recounted for us,
20:32
Speaker 1: like her probably her worst moment in her life, like
20:34
Speaker 1: talking about her sexual assault. I think she was getting
20:36
Speaker 1: raped or something. Um. And then she was like, so
20:38
Speaker 1: are you going to do something? Like are you going
20:41
Speaker 1: to help me with it? And you know, we had
20:44
Speaker 1: to give her a very painful answer of like no,
20:48
Speaker 1: we're here for the assessment, Like all we can do
20:50
Speaker 1: right now is collect your story. And it kind of
20:55
Speaker 1: like reminds me of the times that, like I've worked
20:58
Speaker 1: in other refugee camps or in like vulnerable populations where
21:01
Speaker 1: my job wasn't not as a journalist, but even as
21:05
Speaker 1: like a humanitarian worker, My job was to collect their
21:07
Speaker 1: stories m or like turn them into data and numbers.
21:12
Speaker 1: And you know, in the same vein that journalists just
21:13
Speaker 1: turned them into like names and words on a page,
21:17
Speaker 1: but for them that's like their lives, like they're telling
21:20
Speaker 1: you their worst moments and then not knowing if they'll
21:23
Speaker 1: ever kind of see any recourse from the information they
21:26
Speaker 1: give you, and even if it does, you know it
21:28
Speaker 1: could take years, months, what have you. And I just
21:31
Speaker 1: think that's like a very painful thing for them, right, Yeah, absolutely,
21:36
Speaker 1: And um, I know a lot of cases go unreported
21:40
Speaker 1: because there is a fear of of retaliation or just
21:45
Speaker 1: almost like well it's going to be painful and I
21:49
Speaker 1: don't know what else get out of it. Yeah, that's
21:53
Speaker 1: very true. Um. And but the other part of this
21:55
Speaker 1: is the problem with um, you know, Western medical missions
21:59
Speaker 1: kind of issue of you know, like we show up
22:02
Speaker 1: and then you know, the white doctors are there, and
22:04
Speaker 1: everybody wants to get seen. And because we're going to
22:06
Speaker 1: solve the day, and that's not the way that this
22:09
Speaker 1: is gonna the world is going to get better. The
22:11
Speaker 1: world is going to get better by m empowering locals
22:14
Speaker 1: to do the work, the same work, because we are
22:18
Speaker 1: not the you know, all powerful people. Um, We're just
22:22
Speaker 1: the same as everybody else, right. And I just I
22:24
Speaker 1: just want to add like one last point, like one,
22:27
Speaker 1: I just like recalled and instance, when I was working,
22:30
Speaker 1: uh like a refugee camp in Jordan's and this group
22:35
Speaker 1: of I forget which newspaper they're working from, they wanted
22:38
Speaker 1: to come in and interview the children and they were
22:41
Speaker 1: working on like a specific topic, Like their question was
22:44
Speaker 1: like what do you dream about? And like in sort
22:48
Speaker 1: of organizing this and watching how the children failed to
22:51
Speaker 1: comprehend this question because they were just like, what do
22:54
Speaker 1: you mean what we dream about? Like we dream about
22:56
Speaker 1: our old homes, like being at home, like we left
22:58
Speaker 1: our houses like um. And I think that's kind of
23:01
Speaker 1: where maybe Western media fails a little bit, is like
23:05
Speaker 1: taking these questions that we think our audiences are would
23:08
Speaker 1: be interested in, but are completely out of context for
23:11
Speaker 1: the population that they're trying to interview. And I don't
23:14
Speaker 1: know if I'm like articulating this correctly, but like that
23:17
Speaker 1: question was like so out in left field for those refugees,
23:20
Speaker 1: like they were like, I don't even understand what you're asking.
23:23
Speaker 1: But for us audiences, like a Western audiences, like oh,
23:26
Speaker 1: what do you dream about? It's like such a high consciousness,
23:30
Speaker 1: like surreal topic that for them, you know, they can't
23:33
Speaker 1: even get food or water, Like what does it matter
23:35
Speaker 1: what they dream about? Yeah? I think that's perfect cook of. Yeah, well,
23:40
Speaker 1: now you have any two questions I need to ask?
23:44
Speaker 1: You're putting so much out here. Um. The first question
23:46
Speaker 1: I did, I want to ask how many. Did you
23:48
Speaker 1: have a lot of women that were willing to come forward? Um?
23:52
Speaker 1: Wasn't easy to obtain that information because obviously they probably
23:56
Speaker 1: all interact with again, groups of people that come, they're
24:00
Speaker 1: trying to get an assess in or maybe try to
24:02
Speaker 1: help or not. How often would you have pushed back
24:06
Speaker 1: and how often would you have like a flood of
24:07
Speaker 1: people coming in, Yes, I want to talk, I want
24:09
Speaker 1: you to know what's happening. I think we had mostly
24:13
Speaker 1: like floods of people who are willing to talk to us.
24:15
Speaker 1: But I think it was more under the assumption that
24:17
Speaker 1: we were there to do something or like fix it. Yeah, no,
24:21
Speaker 1: I agree, and um, working with our partners Safeco, UM,
24:25
Speaker 1: they kind of, um you know, said hey, they're coming
24:28
Speaker 1: and they want to talk to you. And so we
24:29
Speaker 1: would have you know, hundreds of people there in the morning,
24:32
Speaker 1: UM that wanted to talk to us, and we're willing.
24:35
Speaker 1: But again the problem was that we really could do
24:38
Speaker 1: very very little for them, and some of them like
24:41
Speaker 1: walked from nearby villages like just to be seen. Um.
24:44
Speaker 1: And I mean we we did whole you know, like
24:46
Speaker 1: clinical hours where like we did clinical work, like we
24:50
Speaker 1: asked them what their ailments were and then we you know,
24:52
Speaker 1: had sent them to our little traveling pharmacy. Um. But
24:56
Speaker 1: you know, by and large for like this huge, large
25:00
Speaker 1: a myth of an issue of like s GBV, Like
25:02
Speaker 1: we really could only just talk to them, right, And
25:06
Speaker 1: that was really sad. Yeah, and that could be especially
25:10
Speaker 1: if you're in the medical field and you want to
25:11
Speaker 1: fix things as well. Um. And then the other part
25:15
Speaker 1: was as you were talking about people coming in and
25:18
Speaker 1: this Western nice idea one of the big issues that
25:21
Speaker 1: I've had for so long when it comes to mission
25:23
Speaker 1: trips and we know Western civilizations saying we're gonna go
25:26
Speaker 1: fix things. Guy, I want to go to Africa. The
25:28
Speaker 1: whole white savior complex. How often have you been running
25:31
Speaker 1: into that? And can you kind of speak on the
25:34
Speaker 1: damages that can do constantly? And I think so, like
25:41
Speaker 1: it's really sexy. I think for organizations to be like, oh,
25:44
Speaker 1: we're gonna go for two weeks and like do this thing,
25:46
Speaker 1: and these are our benchmarks, key performance indicators, how many
25:50
Speaker 1: people serve, how you know, how much drug supplies we delivered.
25:54
Speaker 1: But like there's very rarely kind of a plan for
25:57
Speaker 1: sustainability because you know, that's a long term investment. It
26:00
Speaker 1: requires money, it requires like investments and energy, like supplies
26:05
Speaker 1: and stuff. It could be like years, whatever. And I
26:07
Speaker 1: think a lot of organizations just don't have the capability
26:11
Speaker 1: for that type of long term vision. And it's not
26:13
Speaker 1: necessarily their fault, right Like, you know, we're volunteer organizations,
26:17
Speaker 1: were by nature limited in the scope and our funding.
26:20
Speaker 1: I think lacking this makes this kind of industry sort
26:25
Speaker 1: of very myopic in its application, because when we arrived
26:30
Speaker 1: in some of these places, they were like, oh, so
26:32
Speaker 1: you brought us drugs, right, Like, you're here to see
26:35
Speaker 1: our patients, so our doctors don't have to work for
26:37
Speaker 1: the days that you're here, Like they really just expect
26:40
Speaker 1: you to do this work for them and then they'll
26:42
Speaker 1: just go back to life as normal, and then another
26:44
Speaker 1: group will come do that work and then they'll go
26:46
Speaker 1: back to life as normal. Yeah. No, I completely agree
26:50
Speaker 1: with that on all sides, right um, Because you know,
26:54
Speaker 1: as the Westerners going, you know, people think, oh I'm
26:57
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna go help for two weeks, um, but
27:00
Speaker 1: that's really just barely aband aid, right um. And really
27:03
Speaker 1: what needs to happen is a longer term solution. I
27:07
Speaker 1: mean and of course, there are emergency situations two weeks
27:10
Speaker 1: is perfect, right, like a typhoon or a hurricane or
27:13
Speaker 1: an earthquake. You know that that's no problem. You can
27:16
Speaker 1: do that acute care. But for the most part, you
27:18
Speaker 1: need longer term care. And you know that's why Global
27:21
Speaker 1: Outreach Doctors has been able to UM, you know, connect
27:24
Speaker 1: with these thirty plus you know psych advisors from the
27:27
Speaker 1: United States to start doing some education UM in the
27:31
Speaker 1: Congo with the providers that have joined us as part
27:35
Speaker 1: of our DRC group. UM. So that helps. So I think,
27:40
Speaker 1: like what makes sort of our outlook on this Congo
27:43
Speaker 1: mission a little bit unique is like we are trying
27:46
Speaker 1: to implement like a much longer term plan UM and
27:49
Speaker 1: not necessarily in terms of like sending teams over and
27:52
Speaker 1: over again, but sort of like empowering the like the
27:55
Speaker 1: local providers to take charge and ownership of like their
27:59
Speaker 1: own health care system, like we've with like suffrago UM
28:03
Speaker 1: and like our local partners have to help, you know,
28:05
Speaker 1: nominate these community champions who could potentially apply this clinical
28:09
Speaker 1: psychology training to their own communities and like hold workshops
28:13
Speaker 1: for their own people instead of you know, having these
28:16
Speaker 1: muzbu doctors come in and speak to them and then
28:19
Speaker 1: leave for two weeks. Um. And I think sort of
28:22
Speaker 1: if this idea could be more widely adopted by other organizations, UM,
28:26
Speaker 1: it could really like change the face of humanitarian work. Yeah, definitely.
28:32
Speaker 1: And UM, I mean I remember one example for me was, UM,
28:35
Speaker 1: we were inundated with hundreds of people wanting to be seen,
28:38
Speaker 1: and I was kind of doing my ear nurse triage
28:41
Speaker 1: and there was one lady who was completely concerned about
28:44
Speaker 1: UM and said, you know, she has to come next.
28:46
Speaker 1: She just was not acting right in any way. And
28:49
Speaker 1: I didn't really know what was going on in terms of, oh,
28:51
Speaker 1: this was the one that fainted in the middle of
28:53
Speaker 1: the line. No, no, no, not that lady, and this
28:55
Speaker 1: is actually stories. Yeah. But and so I said, you know,
29:00
Speaker 1: we have to see her next, and and all the
29:02
Speaker 1: locals just came up to me and said, oh, no, no,
29:04
Speaker 1: don't worry about her. She's just crazy, you know. And UM,
29:08
Speaker 1: they kept saying, okay, yeah, she's crazy. UM, and we
29:12
Speaker 1: I finally got I pulled her in next to be seen, right,
29:15
Speaker 1: So she kind of slipped ahead in the line because
29:17
Speaker 1: she definitely looked the sickest in the line. Um. And
29:21
Speaker 1: as an ear nurse, that's what I'm used to doing,
29:23
Speaker 1: is peaking the worst and um, you know, and and
29:27
Speaker 1: it became quite obvious that she was schizophrenic. Um and
29:31
Speaker 1: you know, I was having some major problems and we
29:32
Speaker 1: don't know why because she's just not able to communicate
29:35
Speaker 1: in that way at all at that point. Um. But
29:39
Speaker 1: but more than getting her any help, it was the
29:42
Speaker 1: other Congolese realizing that, like, she was a real person
29:46
Speaker 1: and did have real problems. It wasn't just oh, she's
29:49
Speaker 1: crazy and we can leave her there, um, and we
29:51
Speaker 1: all get to get seen because you know, we have, um,
29:54
Speaker 1: some other issues that you know, those are the major
29:57
Speaker 1: issues that need to get dealt with, right. But I
29:59
Speaker 1: mean you think about it in sort of their point
30:01
Speaker 1: of view, like how often does a person get dismissed
30:04
Speaker 1: for just like being a little off or like crazy,
30:07
Speaker 1: But it's actually like maybe having like PTSD or like
30:11
Speaker 1: some really serious underlying medical issue that they just you know,
30:14
Speaker 1: get brushed off as like oh, she's crazy, don't worry
30:17
Speaker 1: about her or whatever. Right. Yeah. One of the first
30:23
Speaker 1: episodes we did together, we did a mini series on trauma.
30:26
Speaker 1: When we first started. UM, so we've we've talked about
30:29
Speaker 1: those kind of health those negative health outcomes that can
30:33
Speaker 1: be associated with it. A lot of the stories I
30:36
Speaker 1: read just seeing like things like STI is in pregnancy,
30:40
Speaker 1: all these just things, Um, that's sort of yeah, yeah,
30:45
Speaker 1: I mean women used to get burned for existing pretty much, right.
30:50
Speaker 1: I Mean that was definitely one of our big conversations.
30:52
Speaker 1: And that's. Um. I've been in social work before this world.
30:56
Speaker 1: And one of the things that Georgia and the US
30:58
Speaker 1: has finally started talking about is trauma based and evidence
31:02
Speaker 1: based therapy instead of just diagnosing with random things here
31:06
Speaker 1: and there and saying, oh, that's just their behavior, understanding
31:09
Speaker 1: a majority of their diagnosis and their behavior is due
31:12
Speaker 1: to trauma, and knowing that that's only starting now for
31:16
Speaker 1: the U. S can't imagine what that looks like for
31:19
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. Kim, do you remember that
31:22
Speaker 1: one patient, She was like an elderly lady and she
31:25
Speaker 1: came to us like genuinely fearing for her life because
31:28
Speaker 1: she was like ostracized by her village because some kind
31:31
Speaker 1: of like sexual trauma happened to her. And then I
31:33
Speaker 1: think she had a family member dies within her village.
31:36
Speaker 1: Like I thought she was a witch or something, and
31:39
Speaker 1: then she was like ostracized in her tent, like people
31:42
Speaker 1: don't approach her, um, Like sometimes they threw stones her,
31:45
Speaker 1: like do you remember that one? And she was like
31:47
Speaker 1: begging us, like please help us, like I can't stay
31:49
Speaker 1: here and I'm gonna die, like they're gonna kill me.
31:52
Speaker 1: Remember that? And I think that that's I mean, that
31:55
Speaker 1: wasn't the only time I heard that. You know, after
31:57
Speaker 1: some sexual based violence happens, that then you're considered you know,
32:02
Speaker 1: um ostracized, untouchable. I mean even so much so that
32:07
Speaker 1: the children of rape cannot go to the normal schools
32:11
Speaker 1: you know have to um, you know, are are also ostracized.
32:14
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a continual process. Yeah, And so
32:19
Speaker 1: we had we had this one like super young teenage girl.
32:22
Speaker 1: Um she was getting raped and then to the point
32:25
Speaker 1: that she had like a rectal anal fistula um. And
32:29
Speaker 1: she like did not speak for I think two years,
32:32
Speaker 1: and even at like our interview, like she refused to
32:35
Speaker 1: say anything to us, like she I think her mother
32:39
Speaker 1: or her aunt or something like talked for her and
32:41
Speaker 1: recounted her experience, and she was just like catatonic, like
32:44
Speaker 1: zero aspect UM. Yeah, it was. It was really depressing. Yes, yes,
32:53
Speaker 1: I think that we're going to backtrack a little bit
32:56
Speaker 1: just to get all the information. But can you because
32:58
Speaker 1: you've said it a few times and obviously it was
32:59
Speaker 1: we were with the can you explain Global Outreach Doctors
33:03
Speaker 1: and what it doesn't what its mission is? Sure, so
33:06
Speaker 1: Global Outreach Doctors we are a nonprofit medical organization. UM.
33:12
Speaker 1: We send volunteer teams of healthcare providers to you know,
33:17
Speaker 1: like high needs, low resource areas parts of the world.
33:20
Speaker 1: And our missions range from like healthcare augmentation to like
33:25
Speaker 1: various responses to like assessments. Really so I can name
33:29
Speaker 1: a few like recent ones. Obviously this Congo one, it
33:33
Speaker 1: was a healthcare assessment. UM. We did another assessment in
33:38
Speaker 1: the Gonder Mountain region in Ethiopia last year. UM we
33:42
Speaker 1: also went on like supplied volunteers for there was a U. S.
33:47
Speaker 1: Southcom Navy trip in and around the Caribbean and South
33:50
Speaker 1: America sort of to help out with the Venezulan refugee
33:53
Speaker 1: crisis and all the IDPs and refugees that were displaced
33:56
Speaker 1: from that conflict. UM we've also like sent people to
34:00
Speaker 1: a most whole in two thousand seven during the anti
34:02
Speaker 1: isis offensive. Currently we're like working on a project to
34:07
Speaker 1: support the Dangai fever outbreak and like the Marshall Islands.
34:11
Speaker 1: So I mean there's a variety of missions that were
34:13
Speaker 1: involved in and they're not always sort of like in
34:15
Speaker 1: the same sphere um, but I think in general we're
34:18
Speaker 1: sort of moving more towards like this long term sustainable
34:22
Speaker 1: development like local empowerment type, whereas I think a lot
34:26
Speaker 1: of our like pure organizations sort of are more into
34:30
Speaker 1: like the quick in, quick out, like high speed, low
34:33
Speaker 1: drag type of like two weeks patch, patch, patch, and
34:36
Speaker 1: then get out type missions. And if you're interested in
34:39
Speaker 1: more information, obviously we have a website shameless plug. It's
34:42
Speaker 1: www dot Global Outreach Doctors dot org. Awesome normal spellings.
34:50
Speaker 1: That's great, exactly what we need. Okay, So going back
35:07
Speaker 1: to to this mission in the DRC, could you get
35:11
Speaker 1: what was kind of a general just day like there
35:15
Speaker 1: and then what data did you end up with if
35:19
Speaker 1: you can have is there any like analysis or like
35:22
Speaker 1: from what age to what age? How many women did
35:24
Speaker 1: you see? Are people I can talk a little bit
35:27
Speaker 1: more about like the day to day stuff because I
35:29
Speaker 1: managed the legistics and then I'll kick it over to
35:31
Speaker 1: Kim to talk about the data stuff because she was
35:33
Speaker 1: definitely more involved with that part. Um. I wouldn't say
35:35
Speaker 1: that we had any day in like the two weeks
35:38
Speaker 1: in some extra days mission that were the same. Like
35:41
Speaker 1: every day was either moving from one place to another,
35:43
Speaker 1: We're seeing patients at this one place, We're getting ready
35:46
Speaker 1: to go to another place. At one point, like we
35:48
Speaker 1: had questions about our security because the area we were
35:51
Speaker 1: going into, you know, there's been known rebel activity and
35:55
Speaker 1: violence in that area. Um So, then we had to
35:57
Speaker 1: take a flight in. But then it had to be
35:59
Speaker 1: like a minuscal helicopter because like the charter flight cancel
36:03
Speaker 1: so that our team got split. Um So, then like
36:06
Speaker 1: the people who had flights out of Rwanda really early
36:08
Speaker 1: went on the un helicopter, but the rest of us
36:11
Speaker 1: were like stuck in this enemy surrounded mountain village for
36:15
Speaker 1: like a few days with internet. I don't know if
36:18
Speaker 1: you've ever seen like this movie called like the Tears
36:20
Speaker 1: of the Sun, but one of my security contractor friends,
36:22
Speaker 1: when I told him about it, he was like, Cocoa,
36:25
Speaker 1: that's literally the plot. Like if you were there for
36:30
Speaker 1: a few more days, and I didn't hear from you
36:32
Speaker 1: like we would have sent several bearded men to go
36:35
Speaker 1: rescue you guys. I mean, obviously it didn't come to that. Um.
36:39
Speaker 1: I mean it was a beautiful place to be stranded
36:42
Speaker 1: and like the locals treated us like family and it
36:44
Speaker 1: was amazing every day dealing with some aspect of the
36:47
Speaker 1: logistics of being in that part of the world. Early. Yeah,
36:52
Speaker 1: So then UM, talking about the data, So, UM, we
36:56
Speaker 1: did assessments in all the different hospitals are clean X
37:00
Speaker 1: that we went to on both depression and mental health. UM.
37:05
Speaker 1: So the the scoring systems we used for the pH
37:10
Speaker 1: Q two UM in PHQ nine, which are both regularly
37:13
Speaker 1: used in the United States for depression, and we also
37:17
Speaker 1: use something called the Refugee Health Screening fifteen UM, which
37:20
Speaker 1: has obviously been studied only for refugees and or traumatized patients.
37:26
Speaker 1: So people would come to us and we would say,
37:28
Speaker 1: you know, are you a refugee or do you have
37:30
Speaker 1: some serious trauma? And if they said yes, then we
37:32
Speaker 1: would use that RHS fifteen. If they said no, then
37:35
Speaker 1: we would just use the PHQ two. And if the
37:38
Speaker 1: PHQ two is positive, then you move on to the
37:40
Speaker 1: PHQ nine. So obviously to add that like refugee is
37:44
Speaker 1: a broad term, also like including I d p s
37:46
Speaker 1: because a lot of these internally, these people you know,
37:49
Speaker 1: moved around DRC because of like nearby violence and stuff
37:53
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, that's very sorry, continues that thinks. Um so,
37:56
Speaker 1: but most people said yes to the been I they're
38:00
Speaker 1: a refugee, I d P or had some severe trauma,
38:02
Speaker 1: and so we would score them on the um RHS
38:05
Speaker 1: fifteen and UM a hundred percent of the people that
38:09
Speaker 1: we use that on scored positive for severe trauma. And
38:14
Speaker 1: then the PhD. You were like at one point you
38:16
Speaker 1: like ask you got to question for and that just
38:19
Speaker 1: like didn't bother asking the rest of the question because
38:21
Speaker 1: you were like, they're positive, let's move on. Yeah, very crue. Yeah,
38:25
Speaker 1: we were so overwhelmed and so busy with so many
38:28
Speaker 1: people that I didn't we didn't always get to every
38:31
Speaker 1: single question because once somebody was positive had a positive
38:35
Speaker 1: score for it, then I was just like, they're positive.
38:37
Speaker 1: I don't care for the rest of the questions, and
38:39
Speaker 1: we just need to get them to some assistance if
38:41
Speaker 1: we can. UM And really, again, this was more about
38:44
Speaker 1: teaching the local providers, UM, that these are important questions
38:48
Speaker 1: to ask on every single patient because you don't know
38:52
Speaker 1: if the lady who shows up with belly paine is
38:54
Speaker 1: really there because she has um some mental health issue um,
38:59
Speaker 1: rather than just you know, giving her some medicine for
39:01
Speaker 1: her supposed belly paint and sending her on her way. UM.
39:04
Speaker 1: So that was I think the big learning experience. And
39:08
Speaker 1: for me, sitting with local nurses and teaching them how
39:11
Speaker 1: to ask these questions appropriately and realizing why it was
39:15
Speaker 1: important was really the highlight. You know, getting to know
39:17
Speaker 1: these nurses and getting them to understand that this is
39:20
Speaker 1: important to their community and how they can help their community. Yeah.
39:25
Speaker 1: And I think so we also did like gendered focus
39:28
Speaker 1: groups um. And obviously we had larger groups of women
39:30
Speaker 1: who are involved with these focused groups and like the
39:32
Speaker 1: men's groups, but like even being able to explain to them,
39:36
Speaker 1: like you know, in like in a safe like crowd setting,
39:39
Speaker 1: that like, not all of your symptoms are because you're sick,
39:42
Speaker 1: like you're you could be like semantic sizing your psychological issues.
39:46
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that a lot of
39:47
Speaker 1: them just didn't know that that was a thing. So
39:51
Speaker 1: you know, you might not have headaches because you have
39:53
Speaker 1: a brain tumor or something. You could be having headaches
39:55
Speaker 1: just because you have psychological trauma and it's manifesting as
39:59
Speaker 1: this physical issue. You right, what was the age range
40:04
Speaker 1: of people you saw right right wide? Yeah, I mean,
40:08
Speaker 1: you know, I would say it was the entire range.
40:11
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of STBV. Obviously, the babies weren't,
40:15
Speaker 1: you know, nobody mentioned that, although I think we had
40:17
Speaker 1: four year olds or stuff with STBV, but we just
40:20
Speaker 1: certainly saw you know, babies with malnutrition and malaria and
40:24
Speaker 1: other things. But then all the way to as old
40:27
Speaker 1: as as possible, I mean, like definitely post menopausal age um.
40:33
Speaker 1: And like they you know, whatever age range, like they
40:36
Speaker 1: had legit questions, Like there were elderly ladies who asked
40:40
Speaker 1: us questions about like what to do about certain sexual situations,
40:45
Speaker 1: like just as like the young ones do um, and
40:47
Speaker 1: you know, mothers who were asking like what should I
40:49
Speaker 1: do for my six year old daughter who was a
40:51
Speaker 1: getting rape? Like so and and one lady so like,
40:54
Speaker 1: she didn't ask this to me, she asked my colleague.
40:56
Speaker 1: So like her question was so like, well, can you
41:00
Speaker 1: what advice can you give us you know, as a
41:03
Speaker 1: Congolese woman in this environment, like what can I do?
41:07
Speaker 1: And so our colleague answered this question and I wasn't there,
41:11
Speaker 1: but maybe you were like she handled it very well,
41:13
Speaker 1: because I definitely I would not have had any idea
41:16
Speaker 1: what to say. Um, but she was like, you know,
41:19
Speaker 1: I know your situation looks really bleak, but it's important
41:22
Speaker 1: to have this kind of solidarity, feel open with each
41:25
Speaker 1: other and support each other. I can't like replicate her
41:29
Speaker 1: super eloquent answer, but it was just like a lot
41:33
Speaker 1: of those types of questions that made you turn your
41:37
Speaker 1: head a little bit and do a double take on yourself.
41:40
Speaker 1: Hm hm yeah. And I sort of going off of that,
41:46
Speaker 1: I m a lot of news media called the DRC,
41:50
Speaker 1: like you know, the rap capital of the world or
41:52
Speaker 1: the most dangerous place for a woman, And I did
41:56
Speaker 1: read a lot of articles from written by Congolese women.
41:59
Speaker 1: You were saying like, yes, the situation is really bad,
42:02
Speaker 1: but there's also a lot of sisterhood and solidarity and
42:05
Speaker 1: strength here and resilience. Do you have one of like
42:09
Speaker 1: the enlightening, eye opening things I think we encounter was
42:13
Speaker 1: how many kind of like just informal women's support groups
42:17
Speaker 1: there were right, because like one of the questions we
42:19
Speaker 1: asked on these like interviews was like, um, so, what
42:22
Speaker 1: are some activities that you do to kind of like
42:25
Speaker 1: seek support? And I think most of them said that
42:29
Speaker 1: there's some kind of like a local community like women's
42:33
Speaker 1: group that they go to. But obviously the issue is
42:36
Speaker 1: like that if there was a leader for these groups
42:38
Speaker 1: you or they're not really trained in clinical psychology, they
42:40
Speaker 1: might not be giving out appropriate advice. But I mean
42:43
Speaker 1: there was like what I felt was like this hunger
42:46
Speaker 1: for like something better or like something to improve the
42:51
Speaker 1: current situation with within this like gender meeting group, support
42:55
Speaker 1: group thing. Would you agree with him? Yeah, definitely, Um yeah,
42:59
Speaker 1: there seemed to be a lot um you know, and
43:01
Speaker 1: I don't think that there has to be some really
43:03
Speaker 1: specific training. I think, you know, just sometimes you know,
43:05
Speaker 1: sitting down and and listening to each other is all
43:08
Speaker 1: that's really needed, and and having that ability to say, hey,
43:12
Speaker 1: I have had these problems. But the problem with that
43:15
Speaker 1: in the congo, what I was told was that then
43:18
Speaker 1: you know, then you become a victim for you know,
43:21
Speaker 1: more violence because you have ostracized yourself of you know,
43:24
Speaker 1: talk with other women sort of thing. So that's actually
43:28
Speaker 1: I can't remember which religion was, but like someone was
43:30
Speaker 1: telling us how, um, she was being targeted because she
43:34
Speaker 1: was like championing this effort and then that was kind
43:37
Speaker 1: of like a target on her back because she was
43:38
Speaker 1: sort of sticking her neck out on behalf of these
43:41
Speaker 1: other women. Right. Well, we even had that one woman
43:43
Speaker 1: who had been just attacked and michett ied um uh
43:47
Speaker 1: just you know, in the last week because she was
43:50
Speaker 1: a champion for it. Yeah. Um. But the other part
43:53
Speaker 1: of that I also want to mention is, I mean, although,
43:56
Speaker 1: you know, going back to the Western media kind of question, is,
44:00
Speaker 1: although it's important to discuss all these things and realize
44:03
Speaker 1: that this is happening in the world, I think it's
44:05
Speaker 1: also important to discuss how beautiful and great the Congo is.
44:11
Speaker 1: I loved it there. Um. Recently I was asked where
44:14
Speaker 1: is my favorite place in the world, and I said
44:16
Speaker 1: bukabu um which is in South Kivu, Congo. Um. I
44:20
Speaker 1: really really enjoyed the country. It was beautiful, that people
44:23
Speaker 1: were amazing, and so you know, I think we need
44:26
Speaker 1: to also realize that good things happen in these places. Um.
44:31
Speaker 1: It's just not all the trauma and badness, and I
44:33
Speaker 1: think some of the stuff is forgotten. Yeah. So actually
44:37
Speaker 1: two things I want to add to that where I
44:39
Speaker 1: think back to your question about where media fails. I
44:41
Speaker 1: think we're so eager to highlight all of these like
44:43
Speaker 1: negative problems and paint this like shocking picture almost kind
44:47
Speaker 1: of you know, like people stopping on the side of
44:49
Speaker 1: the road to stare at this grotesque accident. But like,
44:53
Speaker 1: I don't think we do enough to sort of highlight
44:55
Speaker 1: all these amazing initiatives that are coming out of this place,
44:58
Speaker 1: like telling stories of these champions who are like willingly
45:02
Speaker 1: making themselves a target in order to stand up for
45:04
Speaker 1: their sisters, or you know, these amazing women in these
45:07
Speaker 1: communities who are empowering like the local girls to do
45:12
Speaker 1: this thing, or you know, like being the person that
45:15
Speaker 1: they can go to, or like providing housing and like
45:18
Speaker 1: a safe place for other women to speak up. I
45:20
Speaker 1: don't think we do enough to highlight those stories. And
45:23
Speaker 1: then the second thing is I'm going to make a
45:24
Speaker 1: shameless plug for tourism because I got to go to
45:29
Speaker 1: Arunga Park um the companies Viega Park and also as
45:33
Speaker 1: part of the Arunga Park trip, I got to hike
45:35
Speaker 1: Narago Volcano, which is the largest persistent lava lake volcano
45:39
Speaker 1: in the world. Um and I have been to a
45:43
Speaker 1: lot of African countries and I have never experienced amazing
45:47
Speaker 1: hospitality at the level that I experienced it when I
45:50
Speaker 1: did my Arunga trip. Like the tourism industry there is
45:55
Speaker 1: really really starving for tourists and for obvious reasons, you know,
45:58
Speaker 1: the violence, like the people people. They know that people
46:00
Speaker 1: don't want to go there. So when they have tourists
46:03
Speaker 1: who you know, are I guess crazy, you're brave enough
46:06
Speaker 1: to visit there, they're like they express their gratitude in
46:10
Speaker 1: such a genuine, almost heartbreaking way that like I don't know,
46:15
Speaker 1: like I bought a stuffed guerrilla even though I like
46:18
Speaker 1: rarely buy souvenirs, I bought the stuff guerrilla just because
46:22
Speaker 1: it supports like the local community there, because like the
46:25
Speaker 1: women there, they make it and they you know, the
46:27
Speaker 1: money goes back to the rangers who protect the guerrillas
46:29
Speaker 1: and stuff. So it's you know, your audience, whoever is listening, Like,
46:35
Speaker 1: visit Congo. It's perfectly safe. You will have an amazing trip,
46:38
Speaker 1: and the hospitality there is amazing, and you will not
46:42
Speaker 1: regret it. Like literally I was within feet distance of
46:46
Speaker 1: the guerrillas and it was like a spectacular experience. And sorry,
46:53
Speaker 1: I forgot that it is much cheaper to do this
46:57
Speaker 1: like guerrilla trek uh in Congo than Rwanda, for example.
47:02
Speaker 1: So like my entire four day itinerary for the Ruina
47:06
Speaker 1: Park and the New York and Volcano costs maybe, whereas
47:09
Speaker 1: in Rwanda just the permit, the trekking permit itself costs,
47:14
Speaker 1: not including accommodations all that. So it is very like
47:19
Speaker 1: cost like your value for money, you definitely get more
47:23
Speaker 1: bang for your buck if you do this in Congo.
47:26
Speaker 1: All right, there we go side notes, So yeah, I
47:29
Speaker 1: love this. We got too shameless plugs. And then off
47:34
Speaker 1: of that, what else can listeners do UM if they're
47:39
Speaker 1: interested in in helping out in any way supporting anyway
47:44
Speaker 1: UM the situation and dear c well, I mean certainly
47:48
Speaker 1: go docs always needs UM support, so both UM tears
47:54
Speaker 1: and from so financial support. So you're welcome to visit
47:57
Speaker 1: our website again, will Lota doctors dot org UM doesn't
48:02
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be It doesn't have to be us,
48:04
Speaker 1: you know, like if you're passionate about a particular issue
48:07
Speaker 1: like there, I'm sure there's no shortage organizations that are
48:10
Speaker 1: working on that issue. UM. I would say, like, do
48:12
Speaker 1: your research. I always try to support like sort of
48:15
Speaker 1: more grassroots local organizations than like large international ones like
48:19
Speaker 1: I c r C or Red Cross, just because like
48:22
Speaker 1: I want my money to go where I wanted to go,
48:24
Speaker 1: as opposed to like overhead UM. And if you can
48:27
Speaker 1: find if you do your research in a particular area
48:31
Speaker 1: or issue that you're interested in, you find an organization
48:33
Speaker 1: that works, and you know, I would just reach out
48:35
Speaker 1: to them. Maybe you are you maybe you run a
48:39
Speaker 1: podcast that could highlight some of these issues. If you
48:44
Speaker 1: have deep pockets, you know, like you know, money goes
48:47
Speaker 1: a long way in parts of the world like that.
48:49
Speaker 1: And also if you have skills and will like to volunteer,
48:52
Speaker 1: you know, like go Dogs and some of the other
48:54
Speaker 1: organizations that work with We're aways looking for like volunteers
48:57
Speaker 1: who can come on and join us on these trips. UM.
49:00
Speaker 1: So there's there's definitely an abundance of ways to get involved. Yeah,
49:06
Speaker 1: And it's just important to realize what's important to you
49:08
Speaker 1: and how you want to use your time and resources
49:11
Speaker 1: UM In terms of you know, do you want to
49:13
Speaker 1: work on saving grillas to you know, want that help
49:17
Speaker 1: with STBV. I mean there's thousands and thousands of different
49:20
Speaker 1: groups out there who each help in their own little
49:23
Speaker 1: teeny way. Yeah. And also I think just like keeping
49:27
Speaker 1: the conversation alive goes a long way too. As a society.
49:31
Speaker 1: There are certain topics that we kind of shy away
49:34
Speaker 1: from talking about just because it makes people uncomfortable or whatever.
49:38
Speaker 1: Sometimes when I mentioned instances of like sexual assault that
49:41
Speaker 1: happened to me, like a lot of my guy friends
49:43
Speaker 1: are like, what that happens? And it's like, yes, I'm
49:47
Speaker 1: a woman, um, but like, you know, keeping that topic alive,
49:52
Speaker 1: like bringing awareness to it, not just as people who
49:55
Speaker 1: live in the West, but like, you know, did you
49:57
Speaker 1: know that in Congo blah blah blah happens or in
50:00
Speaker 1: this other part of the world blah blah blah happens.
50:02
Speaker 1: I'm like, what are we doing about it? You know,
50:04
Speaker 1: if if you keep it in someone's you know, like
50:07
Speaker 1: the back of someone's mind, like and they happen to
50:10
Speaker 1: be in a position where they can do something like
50:12
Speaker 1: influence policy in any way, you really never know when
50:15
Speaker 1: some of these topics and connections may come in handy. Yeah,
50:19
Speaker 1: I mean, and another part that reminded me is um
50:22
Speaker 1: eve in slur with the vagina monologues came out of
50:26
Speaker 1: the drc UM. That's where she originally worked with Dr mccoige. So,
50:30
Speaker 1: I mean even that has standard the conversation a little
50:33
Speaker 1: bit awesome. Yeah. So one of the things we we ask,
50:40
Speaker 1: as you've been sharing with what you do, I can
50:44
Speaker 1: see I would say it's very stressful. It can be
50:46
Speaker 1: very stressful over apps. What are things you do to
50:50
Speaker 1: take care of yourselves? Actually, so I'm not very good
50:56
Speaker 1: at this. My strategy for coping is just to myself
51:01
Speaker 1: as busy as possible to the point where I don't
51:03
Speaker 1: have any time to dwell. Um. So, like I finished
51:07
Speaker 1: my contracting Afghanistan a few weeks ago, and since then
51:10
Speaker 1: I've just been on the road NonStop, and in fact,
51:13
Speaker 1: I'm calling you from Moldova right now. Appreciate that. Yeah,
51:17
Speaker 1: And the day after tomorrow I'll be doing the medical
51:20
Speaker 1: like a polar medical or anything in Norway, and then
51:23
Speaker 1: I'll go back to the U S. And then literally
51:24
Speaker 1: the day after I get back, I go straight to work.
51:28
Speaker 1: So my strategy which personally works for me, but I
51:31
Speaker 1: can't prescribe to anyone else. Is that I keep myself
51:33
Speaker 1: literally so busy that I don't have any time to
51:36
Speaker 1: dwell at anything else. Yeah, um, And I mean I
51:39
Speaker 1: think this is a huge problem, um, you know with
51:43
Speaker 1: medical professionals, even in the United States, even that don't
51:46
Speaker 1: you know, adventure to any other place. And so I
51:49
Speaker 1: think that's another huge topic that needs to be discussed,
51:54
Speaker 1: you know, because I don't think we do a very
51:55
Speaker 1: good job as a culture. UM. I certainly spent twenty
51:58
Speaker 1: years in them are jency room and reached a burnout
52:02
Speaker 1: phase and um and had to leave bedside nursing for
52:06
Speaker 1: a while because of that problem. So, you know, recognizing
52:09
Speaker 1: that it is a real thing, that it affects everybody. Um.
52:13
Speaker 1: And it may not hit you on the call or
52:16
Speaker 1: the situation or the mission that you think it's going to,
52:18
Speaker 1: but you know something else it's going to hit you then, UM.
52:21
Speaker 1: So recognizing it and just as we suggested with you know,
52:25
Speaker 1: the women in the DRC seking, I think it's important
52:28
Speaker 1: for us to talk that it happens to everyone. And
52:32
Speaker 1: absolutely I think so you know, we should normalize conversation
52:37
Speaker 1: about these types of issues, like people are not comfortable
52:40
Speaker 1: talking about the state of their mental health because they're like, oh,
52:43
Speaker 1: if I mentioned that I'm having, you know, feeling down
52:46
Speaker 1: or suicide whatever, Like are my friends going to call
52:48
Speaker 1: the cops enough or whatever? Because I've definitely had that
52:51
Speaker 1: happened to my friends, and I've even had it happened
52:53
Speaker 1: to me, you know. But like, I think we should
52:56
Speaker 1: be more open about talking about these things, and we
52:58
Speaker 1: shouldn't sort of like assume everyone who talks about it
53:03
Speaker 1: is in some kind of dire emergency state. Maybe they
53:06
Speaker 1: just want someone to vent to, Maybe they just needed
53:09
Speaker 1: to get this off their trust, and if you just
53:10
Speaker 1: listen to them, I was like, yeah, dude, like that
53:12
Speaker 1: freaking sucks. No, I mean that makes perfect sense, because
53:15
Speaker 1: you know, I know that I walked into the er
53:17
Speaker 1: one day to work and um was crying hysterically and
53:21
Speaker 1: told a friend, you know, I want to kill myself
53:24
Speaker 1: right now. Um. And so then of course it became
53:26
Speaker 1: a huge issue, and as she said, you know, police
53:29
Speaker 1: and all that were involved, and it was just I
53:32
Speaker 1: was burnt out and could no longer watch the parade
53:36
Speaker 1: of car accidents and guns shooting victims come in the
53:39
Speaker 1: door anylong. I actually so like I joke about sort
53:44
Speaker 1: of maybe like some people consider morbid, but like I
53:47
Speaker 1: joke about sort of morbid topics a lot. Like I
53:49
Speaker 1: recently made a post that was like, does anyone get
53:51
Speaker 1: this feeling where it's like, I'm not trying to actively
53:55
Speaker 1: kill myself, but like if I walked on a grenade
53:58
Speaker 1: or you know, if I stepped on a landline or
54:00
Speaker 1: grenade landed in my lab, I wouldn't exactly be mad. Um.
54:03
Speaker 1: And like a ton of people actually like message me privately,
54:05
Speaker 1: I was like, dude, yeah, I know exactly how you feel.
54:08
Speaker 1: And I think so many of us. It's not that
54:11
Speaker 1: we're necessarily just like suicidal, but we have these kind
54:15
Speaker 1: of self destructive, realistic feelings and we have no outlet
54:18
Speaker 1: for it because we're so afraid of being ousted. Do
54:22
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah,
54:27
Speaker 1: We've talked about that many, many, many times in this
54:29
Speaker 1: show Burnout and especially especially in the medical profession. Yeah.
54:35
Speaker 1: So yeah, normalizing it it's definitely something we should be
54:39
Speaker 1: doing and hopefully moving that way. Okay, so what are
54:43
Speaker 1: now that you've done this assessment mission? What are the
54:48
Speaker 1: next steps what happens now. So now we have UM
54:51
Speaker 1: the thirty plus advisor groups that are medical professionals mostly
54:56
Speaker 1: psychiatrists from you know, places like Harvard, Columbia, Mountain, I
55:00
Speaker 1: and I UM at their prestigious universities and medical centers
55:04
Speaker 1: that are doing telehealth education providers in the DRC to
55:09
Speaker 1: help them learn how to address some issues. We're trying
55:13
Speaker 1: to gather a supply of medicines to provide them also,
55:16
Speaker 1: but that's you know, a little bit harder, but at
55:19
Speaker 1: least teaching them how to assess, um diagnose and then
55:24
Speaker 1: treat people at a very basic level. Yeah, I think
55:28
Speaker 1: so our long term goal with this project is to
55:33
Speaker 1: sort of like be able to build up the local
55:35
Speaker 1: indigenous capacity, like help them help themselves, like teach the
55:38
Speaker 1: trainer or train the trainer initiatives if you will, UM,
55:41
Speaker 1: And with these like weeklier monthly engagements, hopefully we can
55:45
Speaker 1: build up the capacity and then those people can take
55:48
Speaker 1: their training to other communities and be able to deliver
55:52
Speaker 1: that information there. And you know, it is a bit
55:55
Speaker 1: of a lofty goal UM in a place like Congo,
55:58
Speaker 1: but we're i think pretty optimistic about it. And you know,
56:02
Speaker 1: of course there's always the potential for future teams to go,
56:06
Speaker 1: particularly like working in clinical psychology, like a little more
56:09
Speaker 1: on hands training, like bringing up these community champions um
56:14
Speaker 1: and giving them not only like the in person tools
56:17
Speaker 1: that they need, but maybe also sort of like some
56:19
Speaker 1: of the clinical knowledge like prescriptions or like pharmacology and
56:23
Speaker 1: stuff like that. That brings us to the end of
56:26
Speaker 1: our interview. But we do have a little bit more
56:28
Speaker 1: for you listeners, but first we have one more break
56:31
Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
56:46
Speaker 1: you sponsor. And we did want to end on some
56:48
Speaker 1: positive things on the horizon for the d r C
56:51
Speaker 1: that will hopefully improve the sex and gender based violence
56:55
Speaker 1: going on there. One thing is getting more women in
56:58
Speaker 1: positions of power. To that end, in a group of
57:01
Speaker 1: NGOs and their local partners formed a movement called Nothing
57:04
Speaker 1: Without the Women to advocate for the Parity Act to
57:07
Speaker 1: get more women involved in all aspects of public life,
57:10
Speaker 1: although it did not come with specifics, and to push
57:13
Speaker 1: for a law that required at least one woman be
57:16
Speaker 1: listed on electoral ballots or the ballot cannot be registered.
57:20
Speaker 1: They received over two hundred thousand signatures after a march
57:23
Speaker 1: that drew more than six thousand people. The Parody Act
57:26
Speaker 1: was signed that same year, which is awesome. So just
57:29
Speaker 1: a little history of the Congolese women and politics. So Congress,
57:33
Speaker 1: women are not effectively represented and have never really participated
57:37
Speaker 1: in the governance of the countries ninety which is the
57:39
Speaker 1: year of the independence of the country. No woman has
57:42
Speaker 1: ever been head of State or head of government slash
57:44
Speaker 1: Prime minister, which neither have they in the US. So
57:48
Speaker 1: there's that um And there are a lot of reasons
57:50
Speaker 1: behind the lack of participation from women, including the mere
57:53
Speaker 1: family responsibility and sometimes the general fear in running for leadership.
57:57
Speaker 1: Although women constituted six a DRC electorate, the current overall
58:02
Speaker 1: representation of women is only seven point two percent in
58:04
Speaker 1: the high positions of recently established institutions Parliament as well
58:08
Speaker 1: as in the government. The DRC, Government, National Assembly and
58:12
Speaker 1: major institutions are all essentially run by men. Ironically, several
58:16
Speaker 1: of the organizations that are for women and support women
58:18
Speaker 1: are largely run by men as well, and according to sources,
58:21
Speaker 1: right now, there's no woman member of the Office of
58:23
Speaker 1: the Senate and there's only one woman among the seven
58:26
Speaker 1: members of the Office of the National Assembly. Out of
58:28
Speaker 1: the eight senators are only six women. There are forty
58:32
Speaker 1: three elected women out of five hundred elected members of
58:35
Speaker 1: the DRC National Assembly. Out of the forty five members
58:38
Speaker 1: of the government, there are only five women, of which
58:40
Speaker 1: four ministers and one vice minister, and there's no woman
58:44
Speaker 1: governor or vice governor of the eleven current provinces of
58:47
Speaker 1: the Republic. Getting more women in politics is really important
58:50
Speaker 1: for several reasons. Several things we touched on, one being
58:54
Speaker 1: finding from the International Peace Institute that when women are
58:57
Speaker 1: included in peace talks the chance of lasting peace goes
59:00
Speaker 1: up by thirty and also having women's spearhead these movements
59:06
Speaker 1: or laws around women's issues just kind of makes sense,
59:12
Speaker 1: right And as we know as we were having the
59:14
Speaker 1: interview with both Kim and Coco, there are women that
59:17
Speaker 1: are gathering together and it's incredible what you can see
59:21
Speaker 1: when women gather together. So hopefully we'll see even bigger progress. Shoot,
59:25
Speaker 1: they might exceed us on the levels absolutely, and we
59:29
Speaker 1: wanted to end on this quote from Justine Massica Biamba
59:34
Speaker 1: from The Guardian, we do not see ourselves as the
59:38
Speaker 1: capital of the world. Instead, I agree with Liberia's noble
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Speaker 1: Prize Laureate Lima Wilbe, who called my nation the world
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Speaker 1: capital of sisterhood and solidarity. Congolese women have decided to
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Speaker 1: take our future into our hands. We have few resources,
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Speaker 1: but we have an enormous amount of No how it
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Speaker 1: really does seem like they do, just in the conversations
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Speaker 1: and the glowing law of the Coco income had for
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Speaker 1: that community. That sounds a powerful, powerful group of women,
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Speaker 1: very much so, and it was so worthwhile to to
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Speaker 1: have this conversation. We would love to have further conversations. UM.
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Speaker 1: I know frequently we focus on the United States because
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Speaker 1: we're based in the United States, but we don't want
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Speaker 1: to be limited in that scope. So yes emails send
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Speaker 1: us suggestions of what issues around the world we should
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Speaker 1: be talking about, and you can send those to our
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Speaker 1: email at Stuff Media, Mom Stuff at iHeart meia dot com.
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Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media on Twitter
1:00:35
Speaker 1: at Moms offt podcast or on Instagram at stuff We
1:00:39
Speaker 1: Never Told You. Thanks as always to our super producer
1:00:42
Speaker 1: Andrew Howard, thank you, Thanks to our guest Cam and Coco,
1:00:45
Speaker 1: thank you, and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've
1:00:49
Speaker 1: Never Told You. The protection of iHeart radios, how stuff works.
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