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Understand Love & Self Medicating with Sheila Maitland · Finding New Waters

0:00
So they're coming to you because there's a problem, right?
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But they're going to deny right? That there's a problem.
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Well, they might be okay with it being a problem for their
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partner but to try to talk about ways that they're possibly
0:20
supporting the illness. Like I love, I love when I get
0:27
to help somebody. They separate their love for the
0:33
person. You can love your man and hate
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their illness be angry at what they're ill.
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Their husband's illness is taking from them from the
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family. Yeah.
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And that we as humans have the capacity to have both those
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things going on at the same time and it's Snot disloyal to be
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loving the person and very mad at what's happening.
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Same way one would feel if someone had cancer, you know, I
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love this person and I hate their illness.
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Well, I think you for joining us, everyone.
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Today we have Sheila Maitland, the leader of the relationship
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enrichment center in experiential Therapy Center in
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Matthews North Carolina, just outside of Charlotte.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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Really thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
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Yeah. And we also have just a
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McClendon executive director here at new Waters recovery.
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Thank you sir. Yes Justin absolutely glad to be
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here. Okay good.
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So today we want to talk about love And self-medicating.
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Hmm. And Sheila cute us before we
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begin. Tell us a little bit about
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relationship enrichment center and what kind of work you do
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there? I would be glad to their
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relationship Enrichment. Center is a private practice.
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It's a group practice. We have eight clinicians, and we
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provide a Continuum of Care. We work with addiction, but we
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So work heavily with codependency and so often it is
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the family member doing the work trying to find something for
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their loved one and they're the ones that need so much
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assistance. And they really can make a
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difference with their willingness, we're an
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experiential practice. Which means when we work with
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people, we Invite them into action.
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And when I try to describe what that means, it's a little bit.
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Like, I could show you a picture of the ocean.
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I could let you listen to the ocean and I could tell you about
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the ocean but until you stand in it, Taste the salt water feel
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the power of it. It's and I think that's such a
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great metaphor to what experiential therapy is.
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We also work with individuals, couples families groups and we
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do workshops. So we do many things and I also
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we work with a lot of Professionals in becoming a I
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sensed and training experientially.
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You're well, you know probably more than you wanted but yeah
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that's what we do. It's really important for people
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to know that there are places like re see where they can get
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help. Yeah so here new Waters.
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We help a lot of individuals who are in marital distress.
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Yeah. They're like the marriage is on
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the rocks and part of how they got here is they got kicked out.
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Yeah. And so I think for the benefit
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of the many people out there because this is way more common
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than we would want it to be. So if you could maybe think
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about a client or a story where you were involved in assisting
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and we're just, if you could tell us about how you work with
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them and how they wand up at your doorstep.
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Hmm. Okay, so often will get a call
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from someone that's calling about someone.
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In fact, I have a couple people that I'm seeing next week that
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are trying to support their adult child or a spouse and they
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want to make sure That there's a session set up for that person
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and while that's amazing and yes we want to help that person.
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I would prefer to work with that set of parents or that partner
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first, because it is so that so often the family is experiencing
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their own PTSD, their own walking, Traumatic experience of
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are they going to make it this time or not?
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And trying to help them with beginning, some self care for
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themselves. That that is such a powerful way
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to support. Whoever is in treatment or in
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trouble or off the rails, it's a little bit.
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Like, we need to put our own Oxygen mask on First and let's
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make sure we're sucking oxygen. Not more crazy?
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Yeah. Yeah.
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What are some of the traumas that that are going on that
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there? I can't handle any more I need
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to call for help? Well, it can certainly be the
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obvious ones like a DUI or some type of huge financial betrayal,
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that's come out. Or some humiliating or
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embarrassing public event. It could also be some
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infidelity, all the things that happen when too much too many
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spirits or yeah, the consequences of a car accident
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the consequences of, yeah, doing something that one shouldn't do
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that often Is present with drinking and drugging.
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Yeah yeah. Do you feel like these are
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sometimes these events that you're mentioning?
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Do you feel like these are sometimes kind of like the
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Catalyst that leads to the reaching out for help it.
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Maybe there's a pattern that's been going on for a while and
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then there's kind of a major event or a precipitating event
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that takes place. Absolutely, and when I get to
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work with that family member, I get to hear.
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Something about the back story, because usually to your question
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about the trim, the trauma, it might be that.
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This is a repeat of Someone's family of origin from 30 years
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ago like the couple where the wife calls her husband is
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struggling with addiction and she doesn't know what to do.
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And when she comes in and begins to unpack, some of her story, of
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course she was raised in a family where there was Was
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addiction. And so the trauma of The
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repetition the participating with somebody who's not really
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there, they might be there in body, but because of the
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inebriation because of the lying because of all of the
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manifestation of active using its triggering something,
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something obvious. Outsider and to a professional,
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but to the client or the wife. In this example, she can't
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connect those dots because she's right in it.
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She's in some paralysis. Right.
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Well, so, in this story, the wife called you, yeah, to help
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the guy, right? And what's her, and she has no
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awareness of her own I'm right here on piece of it, right?
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So what happens when she sits down, how do you get her in the
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door? Well that's it.
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When she gets in the door we've got some hope because so often
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it's like, no, no, he's the one, he's the problem.
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He's the one that needs to be here.
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And trying to acknowledge and really listen to her.
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And her belief and also suggest that we can also help her.
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It's it's I wish it were easier. Sure.
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But when she does come through the door Hopefully she'll feel
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seen and heard really good therapy starts with feeling seen
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and heard and creating lots of emotional safety with whoever
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she's working with, whether it's me or one of my staff and being
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able to address, what is right on top.
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And so trying to Help provide resources.
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This might be the only session the wife ever comes to.
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And so making sure she's got really good information and
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hopefully she'll be curious and feel safe enough to come back.
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Yeah. How do they respond?
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Like when you suggest, or you get curious about them and all
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they want to do is talk about the other person.
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Well, often they're in tears because they are so used to
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micromanaging mood managing covering enabling, making sure
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it looks good on the outside, despite how fractured this
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person might feel on the inside. And so, just inviting them to
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try to take a deep breath and inhibit or inhabit their bodies
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for just a few minutes. Yeah.
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You know what is it like for you?
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It's I've had people say many times, no one ever asks me that,
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well, or I don't really even know.
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I don't know how I am. Which I understand and relate to
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sure and yeah so that they're so caught up in that in that
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pattern in that cycle. They're just not stopping long
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enough to pay attention to their self, I guess right.
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Well exactly. And that's the part that's so
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challenging to intervene on the illness being so sophisticated
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that it certainly got the husband Inebriated and doing
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whatever he's doing. But now the wife is also so
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impacted by the illness that she has an illness to and the
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illness part of its presentation.
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Of course, is denial. Sure?
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That is sophisticated. That's a complicated thing to
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try and yeah, like I can't explain it, you know.
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No, so they're coming to you because there's a problem,
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right? But they're going to deny right?
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That there is a problem. Well they might be okay with it.
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Being a problem for their partner.
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But to try to talk about ways that they're possibly supporting
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the illness. Like I love, I love when I get
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to help somebody separate their love for the person.
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You can love your man and hate their illness be angry at what
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their Their husband's illness is taking from them from the
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family. Yeah.
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And that we as humans have the capacity to have both those
14:35
things going on at the same time and it's not disloyal to be
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loving the person and very mad at what's happening.
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Same way one would feel if someone had Answer.
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You know, I love this person and I hate their illness.
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I love the way you kind of separate those two things
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because I think, you know, especially those of us that, you
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know, work in this field and understand that disease.
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It is, it really is two separate kind of entities right in that
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person you know their brain and I won't get too much into that
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but becomes hijacked and they're not, they're not ready, they are
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on the inside, right? Right, yeah, absolutely.
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It's true. See suppose you use the word?
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You don't I know from previous conversations.
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You don't like the word addict or addiction but use the word
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medicator. Yeah.
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What's tell us, what is it medicator?
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So a medicator is anything that is numbing me, or blocking me.
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So a number could be the Dairy Queen.
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In the number could be the six hours of Netflix that I love
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watching the number could be my obsession with my business.
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And I think what, The distinction between when is it a
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thing? And when is it a medicator or a
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numer is? When are there consequences my
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having consequences? Because I can't stop watching.
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Whatever Netflix. Yeah.
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Am I having consequences with my health?
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Because I'm not putting healthy food in my body and I really
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prefer talking about Medicaid, errs numbers and even Invaders
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because so often the things that keep us from addressing what we
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need to address, our certainly valid.
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So an Invader to someone's couple ship.
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Could be a newborn baby And that's a beautiful thing, but it
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makes it really hard for the couple to spend time together
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when there's a newborn in the house.
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Yeah, the other thing about the word addict is, there's a lot of
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assumption. It's one thing if I want to
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share and I do that. I'm a recovering addict myself.
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but if someone had told me that, thirty years ago, when I got
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into recovery, I would have wanted to fight about the name,
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as opposed to look at whether I was maybe doing some things or
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as having some consequences because of my drinking So you're
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saying I'm not an alcoholic. I just I felt or I tripped.
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Yeah, I didn't eat enough before going out instead that was my
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favorite one. Yeah.
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Didn't have enough to eat. Yeah, right.
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That was not true. That was true.
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You had to that like when someone's spending a lot of time
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in a medicated state, they're not connected with reality.
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They're not connecting with their partner, right?
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So So what is it like to be in a relationship and in couples
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therapy? When a medicator is still
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running wild in someone's life. the word that comes to mind is
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crazy, making because it's a little bit like one minute the
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person's there and then, without any hint, Rhyme or Reason,
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they're not there anymore like the veil drops and What I think
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is so difficult for the partner is to not make it about them.
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Like, where did you go? What did I do?
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What did I do wrong? Why did you use again?
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Did you use again? I don't trust my own experience
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of knowing the signs and symptoms and I don't have the
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skill to speak about what I want or need.
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And I make this mistake of talking.
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To the person while they're inebriated or high or checked
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out and then get incensed when the next day, they don't
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remember the conversation, like, like they're in a blackout.
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Yeah. So there are people who are
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trying to have a real relationship with someone and
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it's just not working. Yeah, they wake up the next
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morning and they don't remember the whole Conversation.
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They had there before. Yeah.
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And how frustrating that must be for that the, the family member,
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right? You know, to trying to connect
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or trying to, you know, you know, discuss an issue or
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whatever it is. And then to have that be the
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outcome right to feel like, oh, you're not listening to me, you
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don't care, I can only imagine, right?
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Well then I again think that that speaks to the
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sophistication of the illness if I'm trying to connect with
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somebody who's not There-there's something possibly wrong with me
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and then when they're not there, when I implode on myself like I
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did something wrong, I must have caused this or they must not
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like me. Like that's kind of like I would
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have to be have some degree of compromised thinking, as well.
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Because if somebody on the street ignored me and I was
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trying to talk to them, there would be a point at, which I
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would stop trying or if an employee or an employer.
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That's always such a great test. You know like what if this were
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my best friend. And I was really trying to
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connect. T', and they weren't there and
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then the next day. Yeah, right.
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It's, it's like a totally different set of rules, right?
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People are looking by right, this is a family illness.
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There is no bypass, this does not just happen to 1 the lowest
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common denominator in medicating and addiction.
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Is to there has to be two people.
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And even if I'm living under a bridge and I'm walking to the
22:17
liquor store, somebody's got to sell the liquor to me, right
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right? That's such a desperate.
22:27
Analogy. But it is not there has to be at
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least two people. For this to continue, it's
22:37
interesting. Wow.
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Yeah, yeah. So interesting.
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Here you are. As we say where there's
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addiction there's trauma and now we can also say there's a
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relationship. Yeah, that's sustaining it in
22:51
some form or another So how did how did couples get help?
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How do you tackle? Yeah, it sounds like quite a
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puzzle. Well, I think it really helps to
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talk to somebody that knows more than they do.
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So that could be a family member.
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Usually not but it could be somebody.
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That's Willing and able to share their experience strength and
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hope it can. The field has changed and the
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access to information about how to get help is so much greater
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than it used to be. In addition to the lowest common
23:54
denominator being to I think at the root of addiction and Co
24:00
addiction or families being in this is a level of dishonesty
24:08
and so how they go about asking for help from somebody that
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knows more than they do. If I were Worried that I had.
24:22
Cancer. I would not go.
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Ask my accountant. It's good point.
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I would not ask my mom if she thought I had cancer, Right.
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Because she would well she would get me to the doctor but so I
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think trying to talk to somebody or read something.
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I mean if you Google There, there are thousands of ways to
24:58
access help and of course you could call new Waters True.
25:06
Yeah, I mean there's just so many people that are really
25:12
wanting willing and ready to share, how to get some support
25:17
and help. In fact, one of the principles
25:22
in recovery is this Statement that together we can do what I
25:28
could never do alone which is yeah.
25:33
I think a lot of people wrestle with shame have course.
25:37
And there's so embarrassed to even asking a stranger for help
25:43
is just humiliating to them and they can't bring themselves to
25:49
pick up the phone. What do you think that comes
25:53
from? And like what what could people
25:57
how can people deal with that? Well, I agree.
26:04
And I think where it comes from. There's a lot of places that it
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comes from, I think, in my own family of origin because I come
26:16
from a family, that's also, my parents are both alcoholic and
26:22
they're in recovery and have 45 years, which was so profound
26:31
with how I was able to find recovery in my 20s rather than
26:36
in my 40s like they did and I think in my family of origin.
26:48
Being rewarded for being independent and being a problem.
26:54
Solver. I felt, I remember feeling like
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I got a promotion, like, like, I don't need help, you know, like
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that was so, and I don't think anybody was trying to hurt me or
27:15
harm me, but I think it was a byproduct of I just got a lot of
27:22
kudos for being so creative. So mature for my age.
27:30
She never needs anything. She just does her homework like
27:33
all these great things and I think for me that certainly
27:37
fostered a difficulty in Whether it's asking for help or just
27:44
being more truthful, you know, because when if I did ask for
27:49
help I could say I could sort of talk my way out of then
27:54
receiving any help. Yeah.
27:59
But you said something about being pretty independent like,
28:03
yeah, but that's the Sunny Side of neglect from the way that I'm
28:08
hearing it and I see that with the relationship.
28:13
Yeah, being being in a relationship with someone who's
28:17
going to spend the next 24 hours, inebriated.
28:20
Yeah, right. So this is the kind of person
28:24
who's normalized being alone. Yes.
28:26
Normalize not getting help and being celebrated for not
28:30
needing, how absolutely and then, I think there, Probably
28:38
becomes this part of. I mean similar to what you were
28:40
saying is that you know if that's if we're getting praised
28:43
for that if we feel you know that that's important that we
28:48
have all the answers that we don't need help from other
28:50
people then I think just this year asking for help or reaching
28:56
out as this admitting that we are less than we're not capable
29:00
and that feels a lot like shame, right?
29:02
Is that like, well there's something wrong with me.
29:03
I'm broken. Can't do these things for
29:05
myself. If I if I have to reach out for
29:07
Or someone exactly. I think that most of the people
29:12
that I work with are so capable to do alone, and sometimes I'll
29:18
even say that You've got that part down and what I want to
29:24
help you with this connection, because that's how we get
29:28
better. And I think that, The age of
29:35
information while it's great. I think it is also really
29:39
isolating and only adds to the difficulty of asking for help
29:44
because I can look at Facebook and not do anything on Facebook
29:50
and feel bad, you know. It's just for some of us it's
29:55
sort of inherent that. It's a comparison and yeah.
30:02
I know a lot of people have waves of Shame.
30:05
Yeah. As they're scrolling through
30:07
seeing how other people are doing things that they were not
30:10
getting have things that they don't have.
30:12
Yeah. Me feel so low.
30:14
Yeah. And we've all been there, right
30:19
right. It's a shame is everywhere
30:22
everywhere. So we all Wrestle with shame and
30:26
some of us through our recovery and our work, we figure out a
30:30
way to deal with it in a healthy way in your, in your practice
30:36
when you're working with clients, is there any
30:38
experiential mmm exercise that they can do to think about or Is
30:47
getting rid of this toxic shame or Jilla with it in some way.
30:55
I'm pausing with how I want to answer that because you can't do
30:58
this in your bedroom by yourself.
31:01
I mean you can try but I don't think it's going to work.
31:03
But one of the ways that we will often simulate or experientially
31:12
show is talking about the shameful events like naming a
31:21
couple of shameful events that have maybe happened in
31:26
somebody's life and being able to place that on a scarf.
31:35
So that it's externalized, it's off the person but then out on
31:40
the floor and being able to look at it from some different
31:48
perspectives and then possibly, if it's a group, if this were in
31:54
a group process, maybe having a role player, Enroll as the
32:03
client so that the client can see themselves with all this,
32:09
shame on them. And then having them reverse
32:16
roles like putting it on the client.
32:21
There's other ways. And then, of course, the the
32:25
healing about, you know, I want to take this off or I can't
32:29
believe this feels so heavy. Building a picture of one's
32:37
shame so that they can get it off of them.
32:42
The very Act of sharing what is so shameful is how we rewire the
32:52
nervous system if I've been secretly feeling bad shameful
32:59
and embarrassed about the things that I did when I drank to be
33:08
able to take that off to take the secret.
33:12
Out of the Vault, The Vault being me and to have other
33:17
people acknowledge to validate, not to give advice, but to
33:24
connect it is. The experience of feeling seen
33:30
and heard that rewires a different narrow pathway in the
33:36
body. And what do I?
33:37
What am I saying about that? I don't have to spin.
33:42
Out in my familiar. Shame spiral that says, I'm a
33:48
this or I'm of that, when I take the risk, when a client, takes
33:55
the risk, and is guided into some shame reduction or taking
34:04
the heaviness of Shame off of them.
34:07
And then hearing other people say that they I could connect to
34:14
that story, that's where the rewiring the, the being seen and
34:19
heard. And I and loved really is what's
34:24
happening that? That's where the re healing
34:28
happens. Yes, I hear you saying that
34:31
shame is kind of. This is just my summary, if you
34:35
will, but shame is isolating and maybe we could Define it as
34:39
disconnection and then it's going like the healing from that
34:42
is fostering the connection, right?
34:44
Yeah. We should have just asked you
34:46
Justin. That was much shorter.
34:48
Yes. Of course, just making sure that
34:50
I'm under so you've got it. It.
34:52
Yeah, good, that's good. Yeah, but I couldn't breathe
34:54
every worrying pieces. So powerful.
34:56
She will because I mean, is it stirred up a lot of stuff for me
35:00
as I was hearing you talk about it because I had my own powerful
35:05
recovery experience in experiential group therapy and
35:10
it I can remember, you know, feeling lots of Shame growing up
35:13
in a very perfectionistic kind of you need to figure all this
35:18
out on your own and if you can't do it, what's wrong with you?
35:21
Like you This is kind of a story, right?
35:23
Something wrong with you if you can't figure it out on your own.
35:27
And my gut tells me when I'm feeling shame, I just need to
35:33
carry by myself right and fight through it, and if I can't fight
35:39
through it, then it's my problem.
35:41
But surprise, it leads to burnout and you just get
35:45
completely fried and your, you have no energy left to keep
35:49
fighting. But what you're saying?
35:52
It sounds like people find a way to feel shame and then they know
35:59
how to be free of it. Yeah.
36:02
But it's their connection exactly how people and it starts
36:08
in an individual process, meaning that, that client might
36:15
see a therapist individually. They might go to group and be
36:21
able to do work in group that's really Healing.
36:26
And it's usually after that, that it, they have enough skill
36:32
and enough knowledge of themselves to be able to teach
36:37
their partner and even share with their partner, like
36:42
imagine. So, I'm going along with my
36:48
partner and I've had no therapy treatment or awareness.
36:54
Des and something happens. And I'm triggered.
36:59
And I'm having a shame response. So I'm sitting in the car for
37:04
six hours. I haven't said a word and I'm
37:08
crazy. I'm absolutely unreachable.
37:17
I start doing my work, I start going to therapy, I start
37:24
realizing that I'm not terminally unique that others
37:31
also, heal from shame and many other things, and I begin to
37:39
give myself a little bit of bandwidth, a little bit of a
37:45
Take I start to have a relationship with myself so that
37:51
I'm not so bad wrong. Horrible blah blah blah.
37:58
I start to experience that in a safe healing Circle and I begin
38:04
to acquire some skills to where I might say on that drive after
38:11
I've been triggered. Could we please stop?
38:15
I want to get some water. Be able to get a little bit of a
38:20
break and maybe say I'm having this huge reaction.
38:27
You didn't cause it, and I'm kind of in a dark place right
38:34
now. Would you hold my hand?
38:37
Like my partner doesn't have to know anything.
38:42
He doesn't have to know how to fix me.
38:44
How to take care of me? I've made a request.
38:47
He knows really. Really, really well how to hold
38:50
my hand. This is me being much.
38:55
More able to be responsible for what's happening for me and my
39:00
partner didn't cause it can't control it.
39:04
Yeah, yeah. It becomes what I'm learning
39:11
about myself. And for myself starts to
39:15
flourish in my relationships, with my partner, with my
39:20
children, with my parents, with the people that I work with, I
39:24
become more of a citizen citizen of the world.
39:29
Yeah, I love that. Very cool.
39:34
I just love the directory and taking her, she liked because
39:37
it's so often in this business of addiction recovery and
39:43
treatment. We focus so much on the person
39:46
with the diagnosis. Yeah, right.
39:49
But their loved one is really hurting.
39:53
Yeah, they're really beat up too well.
39:58
They're probably not going to wrap their car around a tree,
40:04
but death by a thousand. Paper cuts is excruciating,
40:09
right? And it's the symptomatology is
40:16
slower and it's I sometimes refer to it as it's mild misery
40:26
but then it gets Heavier and heavier.
40:30
Yeah, yeah. When the conversation started
40:34
with like how do we get the non medicating partner to help the
40:39
medicating partner? But a lot of times there they
40:44
come to you asking for help but that's actually a sign of how
40:48
depleted they are. Yeah, right.
40:52
And so sometimes the best way to help that other person's exactly
40:57
what you said is you you got to put your oxygen mask on first
41:01
exactly it to be. Be healthy and have strength and
41:05
vitality. If you have any chance at
41:09
helping your loved one, get their themselves to absolutely,
41:14
I couldn't agree more. And I'm always amazed at what
41:21
better way to support your partner, or your loved one, then
41:28
by modeling. Yeah, you know if I do the Thing
41:33
I want my partner to do chances are they're more likely to do it
41:38
right? Right.
41:40
I don't know why that's so hard for some of us.
41:44
Yeah well I think a lot of people think of this they think
41:48
of addiction and self-medicating as something you have to stop.
41:52
Yeah. Right.
41:53
Absolutely. Stop drinking, stop.
41:55
Using. Stop getting high.
41:57
Yeah, it's easy. Yeah.
41:59
Why do you keep doing this right?
42:01
What's wrong with you? Yeah.
42:02
Yeah. but what you're what you're saying is What of
42:09
yourself nurture yourself? Yeah, pay attention to yourself.
42:15
Well and I would also say if you are using and medicating try
42:21
stopping for 90 days and just see if some of the craziness,
42:27
softens, hmm, like it's usually It's my belief that if someone
42:35
is in trouble with medicating, it's exacerbating the
42:41
disconnection of their life. and, To try it as an experiment
42:52
and see if it gets any better. Yeah.
42:57
He was just something that came up.
42:59
When you were saying that, is that, you know, I think a lot of
43:02
times we think of this is people see it as the problem.
43:05
Like dr. Hong said that, it's something
43:06
that we have to stop. But, you know, I think for a lot
43:10
of people that, that has become may be the solution for, you
43:13
know, maybe this other forms of disconnection and, you know,
43:17
just just not feeling well, whatever this, this dysfunction
43:22
that's happening internally and in our lives that, that, you
43:25
know, at some point, we have consciously or unconsciously,
43:27
Consciously like reached to the drink of the drug or whatever
43:29
that that that medication is as the solution if you will.
43:34
So I'm wondering just thinking about that.
43:36
That experiment, they are like, so if I was a substance abuser
43:39
and I decided I'm just going to stop for for 90 days.
43:42
I wonder what sometimes that looks like.
43:44
When were able to look at like those other areas of our life
43:46
that are maybe we're not masking or coping with with that alcohol
43:50
or other drugs, right? Right.
43:52
Yeah. It's got to be pretty tough.
43:54
I would imagine scary, scary. And I think that's so powerfully
44:00
why like when the focus isn't on just removing the substance.
44:08
It switches to, then how do you live, right?
44:12
How do you live without this? And how do you learn how to
44:18
recognize your feelings? Because, of course, the
44:21
anesthesia, the, the numbing cuts the feeling.
44:26
So how do you identify what it is and then, what do you what is
44:34
that? Informing, what, you know?
44:38
Yeah, it's very interesting. Well, what Sheila is.
44:44
It's so painful to deal with not paying attention to yourself,
44:49
like the misery? Yeah, yeah.
44:52
I think it's just an incredible like to make it so simple that
44:56
it pay attention to yourself and work with someone who knows how
45:01
to guide you. Yeah.
45:03
In Reviving, this art of taking care of yourself.
45:06
So but how do you if for the people out there who are
45:10
listening? Who might not know how to find a
45:14
good professional to help him with this?
45:16
Like, what's your advice on how to find a good person to work
45:20
with? it's my, it's my belief that if
45:34
a client can ask The therapist or whoever they're considering
45:44
well like we could go to psychology today.com and just
45:49
start there and in vetting who is the fit for you.
45:54
I think as a consumer, any person that's considering coming
45:59
to therapy if they're not able to read a bio or get a sense for
46:06
somebody by looking at their Website, or looking at their
46:09
profile, and, and their gut is saying, no to trust that I think
46:18
asking somebody that is pleased with the therapist, they're
46:25
seeing, that's a great way to find somebody.
46:28
I think reading Google reviews. I think having a 15 minute
46:36
consultation with somebody too see if it feels safe for you to
46:42
then go and see that person I think that's really reasonable
46:48
and I think as a consumer. If someone isn't able to
46:54
advocate for themselves with a particular person, that that's
46:58
information enough that they should keep looking.
47:05
That would be my encouragement. Yeah.
47:09
Well, if I may be so bold, I would I would wholeheartedly
47:13
recommend people reach out to relationship Enrichment Center.
47:17
She I know you do incredible work with the clients that are
47:21
lucky enough to connect with you.
47:22
And I think the safety piece is what's so wonderful about the
47:27
RAC. Safety is the first thing.
47:32
Yeah. Like this is a safe place that
47:35
you can share your shame. Yeah, in safety.
47:39
Yeah. You can this is a place where
47:43
you can learn how to be free of that misery.
47:46
So we will have your, your contact information in the notes
47:51
thanks. But, you know, I know that just
47:54
now, we we are fortunate enough to see this all the time here is
47:59
people who come in carrying? Unbelievable, wait, yeah,
48:04
unbelievable. Emotional baggage.
48:07
Yes and they for the first time, get a sense of Of the freedom
48:12
and the lightness that comes from, finding a new way to go -
48:19
oh that shame, and having the energy to find a new way to live
48:24
again. So this is possible.
48:28
It's a great thing that it's a great way to wake up in the
48:31
morning and now hey I'm going to go do that thing today.
48:33
Yeah well thank you dr. Hong I really appreciate it and
48:38
thank you just observe this has been fabulous.
48:41
You're welcome.