Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / How to Stop Being Codependent | LHS Classic

Transcript

How to Stop Being Codependent | LHS Classic · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

0:04
Speaker 1: My friend. Quince is a brand that checks both the
0:06
Speaker 1: happiness and success boxes at the same time. I personally
0:11
Speaker 1: have their cotton cashmeir ribbed Midi dress and I love
0:15
Speaker 1: it so much I actually went back and bought it
0:17
Speaker 1: in another color. Quince makes it so easy to refresh
0:21
Speaker 1: your every day this spring with beautiful pieces that feel
0:25
Speaker 1: as good as they look. What I love about them
0:29
Speaker 1: is that they use these beautiful premium materials like one
0:32
Speaker 1: hundred percent European linen, organic cotton, this ultrasoft denim and
0:38
Speaker 1: everything at Quins, this is the best part, is priced
0:42
Speaker 1: fifty to eighty percent less than similar brands. For real,
0:46
Speaker 1: you too can refresh your every day with luxury you'll
0:50
Speaker 1: actually not just use, but live in like me. Head
0:54
Speaker 1: over to quins dot com slash lahs for free shipping
0:58
Speaker 1: on your order and three six five day returns now
1:01
Speaker 1: available in Canada too. That's quins dot com slash LHS,
1:07
Speaker 1: q U I n c E Quins for free shipping
1:11
Speaker 1: and three hundred and sixty five day returns quints dot
1:14
Speaker 1: com slash LHS. Before we get into today's episode, I
1:38
Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the Values Aligned
1:42
Speaker 1: brand supporting this show so first, Shopify, the platform I
1:46
Speaker 1: trust for the business side of what goes on around here.
1:49
Speaker 1: You can test this out yourself for one dollar a
1:51
Speaker 1: month at shopify dot com slash LHS.
1:55
Speaker 2: Next up is upwork.
1:57
Speaker 1: I love upwork, been using it for years to find
2:00
Speaker 1: the right people for the job. You can post your
2:03
Speaker 1: job for free at upwork dot com. Ocam Malibu I
2:08
Speaker 1: love clean skincare that actually works back by science and
2:11
Speaker 1: the power of the c use code LHS at Oca
2:15
Speaker 1: Malibu dot com for ten percent off. Last, but not least,
2:19
Speaker 1: el Neutra metabolic health built on longevity science. Learn more
2:25
Speaker 1: at Lnutra dot com. All in the show notes with
2:28
Speaker 1: links to everything. All right, now, let's get into today's episode.
2:40
Speaker 1: This is doctor Lisa Mriebobby and you're listening to the Love,
2:44
Speaker 1: Happiness and Success Podcast. That song is called Ophelia. The
2:59
Speaker 1: artist is less Hayden, and I chose that song for
3:02
Speaker 1: us today, not for his lyrics so much, but because
3:06
Speaker 1: of the tone of the song, I think, but also
3:10
Speaker 1: to have the opportunity to speak with you about the
3:13
Speaker 1: lesson of Ophelia. If you remember from your high school
3:17
Speaker 1: high school Shakespeare days, Ophelia was a character who was
3:22
Speaker 1: so overly involved in her relationships with other people that
3:28
Speaker 1: when those relationships were disrupted, it absolutely ruined her. And
3:35
Speaker 1: I know that's kind of heavy, but I thought it
3:38
Speaker 1: was an appropriate kind of symbol for our time together today,
3:42
Speaker 1: because today we're going to be talking about something that
3:47
Speaker 1: has that impact on people, might even be impacting you
3:52
Speaker 1: and your life and your relationships. And the term for
3:56
Speaker 1: it is codependence. When we talk about codependence, we're talking
4:02
Speaker 1: about being so focused on what other people are doing
4:08
Speaker 1: or not doing, particularly are romantic partners, and feeling like
4:12
Speaker 1: unless and until they can get it together, you cannot
4:19
Speaker 1: be at peace or happy or satisfied with your life.
4:23
Speaker 1: And so so much energy goes into trying to help
4:28
Speaker 1: another person function at the level that you want them
4:32
Speaker 1: to function to that in the meantime, you yourself are just
4:37
Speaker 1: awash in stress and anxiety and anger and all kinds
4:41
Speaker 1: of negative emotions that take such a toll on you.
4:45
Speaker 1: So on this episode of the podcast, I wanted to
4:49
Speaker 1: explore this topic with you in particular, so that you
4:53
Speaker 1: can understand what it is and you know how it
4:57
Speaker 1: shows up in relationships and kind of think about whether
5:01
Speaker 1: or not it might be happening in yours. But also
5:04
Speaker 1: I'm going to be leaving you with some ideas that
5:06
Speaker 1: you can use to begin shifting this dynamic so that
5:11
Speaker 1: you can feel happier and more at peace and more
5:14
Speaker 1: in control and paradoxically create positive change in your relationship
5:22
Speaker 1: without all of the drama and stress and pain that
5:27
Speaker 1: you might be experiencing. Now, I know that sounds crazy.
5:31
Speaker 1: When you let go you have more opportunity for change,
5:34
Speaker 1: but it's so often the case, particularly when it comes
5:37
Speaker 1: to relational dynamics. So lots of exciting stuff planned for
5:41
Speaker 1: us today, And if this is your first time listening
5:44
Speaker 1: to the podcast, I'm so glad you're here. I'm again
5:47
Speaker 1: doctor Lisa Mrie Bobby. I'm the founder and clinical director
5:49
Speaker 1: of Growing Self Counseling and Coaching, and I am a
5:53
Speaker 1: licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm also a licensed psychologist.
5:56
Speaker 1: I am a board certified coach, and I am here
6:00
Speaker 1: with you every week sharing love, happiness and success, tips
6:06
Speaker 1: and strategies and insights that are all designed to help
6:10
Speaker 1: you and also to be responsive to what it is
6:12
Speaker 1: that you are needing. So today we are talking about
6:16
Speaker 1: codependence and I also have all kinds of podcasts ready
6:21
Speaker 1: and available for you, anything from communication and improving your
6:26
Speaker 1: communication and your relationship to understanding how to handle different
6:30
Speaker 1: situations and your relationship with your partner. If you haven't yet,
6:35
Speaker 1: please subscribe to this on iTunes, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever
6:40
Speaker 1: you like to listen and score all back. I have
6:42
Speaker 1: years worth of podcasts and they're all available for you,
6:46
Speaker 1: and every single one of them hopefully has an actionable
6:49
Speaker 1: takeaway that can help you improve some area of your life,
6:53
Speaker 1: your relationship, your career. So I hope you take advantage
6:56
Speaker 1: of all of it. And also it's not just me
7:00
Speaker 1: in my practice growing self dot com. We have over
7:03
Speaker 1: I think forty at this point therapists, couples, counselors, coaches
7:09
Speaker 1: who I work with, all of them very closely, and
7:12
Speaker 1: in addition to me in this podcast that I do,
7:14
Speaker 1: they are always putting together blogs and articles and answering
7:19
Speaker 1: listener questions. And so anytime you want, cruise on over
7:22
Speaker 1: to the blog at growingself dot com and you can
7:26
Speaker 1: see not just my thoughts but all kinds of expert
7:30
Speaker 1: advice and take advantage of it because it is all
7:35
Speaker 1: there for you. All right, So let's talk about this situation.
7:41
Speaker 1: Let's talk about codependence and why this is so important.
7:46
Speaker 1: And as you know if you listen to this podcast,
7:48
Speaker 1: I always try to design shows around your needs and
7:52
Speaker 1: what I'm hearing from you guys about what's important. And
7:56
Speaker 1: lately I've been getting so many questions going through the
8:00
Speaker 1: blog at growingself dot com, Facebook, Instagram that are all
8:05
Speaker 1: some variation of doctor Lisa, How do I get my
8:11
Speaker 1: partner to do xyz or to stop doing xyz? Let
8:17
Speaker 1: me tell you about this terrible thing that my partner
8:20
Speaker 1: is doing or not doing, and how upset I am
8:22
Speaker 1: about it. How do I get them to change? That's
8:25
Speaker 1: the gist of a lot of the questions, And you know,
8:29
Speaker 1: in honesty, like I think that that is the energy
8:32
Speaker 1: that drives a lot of people into couples counseling, is
8:36
Speaker 1: that the perception is that they are having happiness and
8:41
Speaker 1: unhappiness and distress in their relationship because of the you know,
8:47
Speaker 1: things that their partner is doing that is making them
8:50
Speaker 1: absolutely crazy and they're just beside themselves. They do not
8:53
Speaker 1: know how to get them to change or improve the situation.
8:57
Speaker 1: And there's lots of fights around this and so exhausting,
9:01
Speaker 1: and so we hear about this a lot, and I
9:06
Speaker 1: think even more so lately. Like so, in addition to
9:09
Speaker 1: you know, I did this podcast and other things for
9:11
Speaker 1: our practice, and I also see my own clients certainly,
9:14
Speaker 1: but I also am at this point in a supervisory role,
9:18
Speaker 1: and so you know, every week I'm in multiple consultation
9:22
Speaker 1: groups with other consulors and coaches on our team talking
9:26
Speaker 1: about you know, different cases, not you know, people's names
9:30
Speaker 1: or anything. It's all de identified. But part part of
9:32
Speaker 1: what responsible ethical therapists do in order to be as
9:37
Speaker 1: effective as possible is case consultation with other professionals in
9:41
Speaker 1: order to say, here is a situation, how would you
9:43
Speaker 1: guys handle it? In order to make sure that we're
9:46
Speaker 1: always handling things really appropriately and doing the very best
9:50
Speaker 1: we can to make sure that the work is always
9:52
Speaker 1: effective for our clients. And in so many consultation groups lately,
9:56
Speaker 1: I've also been hearing about my colleagues working with couples
10:01
Speaker 1: who are struggling with these codependent dynamics that are very
10:07
Speaker 1: entrenched and very powerful and hard to change. And the
10:12
Speaker 1: reason why it's so important for us to be talking
10:15
Speaker 1: about is because until it changes, it is really impossible
10:19
Speaker 1: to paradoxically affect the change that you would like to
10:24
Speaker 1: see in your relationship. So the first thing I want
10:27
Speaker 1: to talk with you about is it's just a little
10:29
Speaker 1: bit more about what codependence is and what it refers to,
10:35
Speaker 1: and just to be perfectly transparent, the term codependence is
10:41
Speaker 1: not a psychological term. It is not in the DSM.
10:44
Speaker 1: It is very much like a self help psychology kind
10:48
Speaker 1: of term that came to be through the recovery movement
10:54
Speaker 1: like AA and you know the essentially, back in the day,
11:00
Speaker 1: alcoholics were the focus of treatment. They would go to groups,
11:04
Speaker 1: they would have sponsors, they would have their meetings, they
11:06
Speaker 1: would have their work, and it became clear over time
11:12
Speaker 1: that it wasn't just the alcoholics that needed help. Their
11:17
Speaker 1: partners and their families were also really struggling. And what
11:22
Speaker 1: counselors in the recovery movement observed is that the partners,
11:26
Speaker 1: the spouses in particular of alcoholics, would be a mess.
11:31
Speaker 1: They would be so angry, and they had characteristics in common.
11:36
Speaker 1: They were often very high anxiety, they were often very angry,
11:40
Speaker 1: and they were often spending a lot of time and
11:42
Speaker 1: energy trying to control or police, or supervise, or improve
11:49
Speaker 1: or protect their alcoholics spouses at the expense of themselves
11:54
Speaker 1: and also really unsuccessfully. And so because of that, there
11:58
Speaker 1: was a whole separate wing that was created, which you've
12:01
Speaker 1: probably heard of called Allanon, which is a separate type
12:04
Speaker 1: of support group and growth process specifically for the partners
12:09
Speaker 1: of people in recovery, and that movement is designed to
12:12
Speaker 1: help people become un enmeshed and uncodependent from their partners
12:19
Speaker 1: and really just start focusing on themselves and their own
12:22
Speaker 1: happiness and well being again, which paradoxically, for reasons that
12:26
Speaker 1: we will discuss, changes the dynamic of the relationship system
12:30
Speaker 1: and makes it even more likely that their alcoholic partners
12:33
Speaker 1: will will heal and grow in addition to helping to
12:38
Speaker 1: helping the codependent person feel a little bit better. So
12:41
Speaker 1: that is where this came from, and so certainly codependence
12:46
Speaker 1: the term itself is often heard or found in those
12:51
Speaker 1: sorts of circles. In my experience, yes, that is absolutely
12:55
Speaker 1: one of the applications of it in our counseling practice,
12:58
Speaker 1: but there are also different ways that it shows up
13:03
Speaker 1: in relational systems that are not necessarily specific to addiction
13:08
Speaker 1: recovery and the addiction recovery stuff is really not what
13:12
Speaker 1: I am talking about here on this show. If you
13:14
Speaker 1: are in a relationship with someone who has a substance
13:17
Speaker 1: use disorder, I would encourage you to get involved with
13:21
Speaker 1: addiction specific treatment because that will be more helpful to you.
13:26
Speaker 1: And if you would like to look into alan On,
13:28
Speaker 1: you can just google alan On meetings. They're all over
13:31
Speaker 1: the world and they're free, and I'm sure they're online
13:33
Speaker 1: at this point, so very easy to get involved with
13:36
Speaker 1: if you'd like to, if you'd like to do that.
13:39
Speaker 1: But outside of addiction's recovery, people will throw around the
13:44
Speaker 1: term codependent all the time, and it means really different
13:50
Speaker 1: things to different people. And so when somebody comes into
13:53
Speaker 1: the office and says, I am codependent and I want
13:56
Speaker 1: to talk about that or whatever, my very first question
13:59
Speaker 1: is what does that word mean to you? Just to
14:02
Speaker 1: be sure that we're kind of on the same page,
14:04
Speaker 1: because here's what it means to me. When people talk
14:08
Speaker 1: about codependence or what it means generally, it means that
14:14
Speaker 1: they need their partner or someone else, a family member
14:18
Speaker 1: or sister, brother, whatever, to behave in a certain way
14:23
Speaker 1: or be a certain way in order for them to
14:27
Speaker 1: feel a certain way. They are essentially trying to regulate
14:32
Speaker 1: their emotions through someone else's behaviors. I know that sounds
14:39
Speaker 1: a little bit weird, but they so that's why there's
14:43
Speaker 1: all this energy going into trying to control other people,
14:46
Speaker 1: because they are attempting to regulate their own anxiety or
14:51
Speaker 1: sense of safety through the behaviors of another person as
14:55
Speaker 1: opposed to what they feel in control of. And so
15:00
Speaker 1: this can take a few different forms. There is a
15:04
Speaker 1: kind of codependence that I actually think of is more
15:06
Speaker 1: like an emotional enmeshment, and that happens when someone cannot
15:13
Speaker 1: feel happy if their partner is upset for whatever reason, angry, sad, stressed, whatever,
15:20
Speaker 1: that they're so sort of enmeshed together that they will
15:26
Speaker 1: put all kinds of energy and effort into trying to
15:29
Speaker 1: get their partner to cheer up or feel better or
15:34
Speaker 1: you know, be happy again. And until their partner does
15:38
Speaker 1: feel better, the person who's attempting to create that change
15:42
Speaker 1: feels really bad and anxious, and it's like they cannot
15:45
Speaker 1: be okay if their partner is not okay, or if
15:49
Speaker 1: their partner like gets angry or upset, they kind of
15:53
Speaker 1: fall apart or feel super angry and upset. In response,
15:57
Speaker 1: like there's this emotion enmeshment within a system that almost
16:02
Speaker 1: prevents people from being able to behave independently of each other,
16:07
Speaker 1: and that creates a lot of reactivity and problems in relationships.
16:13
Speaker 1: Another aspect of codependence is people who tend to feel
16:20
Speaker 1: like really anxious or unsettled or I don't want to
16:25
Speaker 1: use the word unsafe, and like a literal physical unsafety,
16:29
Speaker 1: but like kind of insecure or not at ease or
16:33
Speaker 1: not calm or relaxed unless their partner is doing certain
16:38
Speaker 1: things or saying certain things, or behaving in a certain way,
16:43
Speaker 1: and that when their partner doesn't do what they need
16:46
Speaker 1: or want them to do, they feel very agitated and anxious,
16:50
Speaker 1: and again it turns into efforts to control their partner
16:54
Speaker 1: and try to get their partner to be different in
16:57
Speaker 1: order for them to feel secure and well. And then
17:01
Speaker 1: of course there's the addictions recovery aspect of this, where
17:06
Speaker 1: this sort of dynamic is often very pronounced, But what
17:09
Speaker 1: I see more often in our practice is kind of
17:12
Speaker 1: like a functional codependence. So it's either you know, somebody
17:17
Speaker 1: who doesn't like the way their partner behaves or doesn't
17:20
Speaker 1: like the way their partner communicates, or doesn't like the
17:23
Speaker 1: way their partner prioritizes time, or feels unhappy that their
17:29
Speaker 1: partner isn't like more of a team player in their home.
17:32
Speaker 1: And just to be very clear that it's absolutely okay
17:37
Speaker 1: to be upset about any of those things. I mean,
17:40
Speaker 1: nobody likes that, right. But the difference with a codependent
17:44
Speaker 1: dynamic is that there is this like hyper focus around
17:51
Speaker 1: what is my partner doing or not doing? And I'm
17:54
Speaker 1: going to try to control them, change them, police them,
17:57
Speaker 1: monitor them, because unless they change, and nothing is ever
18:01
Speaker 1: going to be different. So there's like this exclusive focus
18:04
Speaker 1: on changing of the partner, trying to get the partner
18:07
Speaker 1: to be different and in lesson until that happens, I
18:09
Speaker 1: am going to be so unhappy and upset. And again
18:13
Speaker 1: it's this like external locus of control because when a
18:19
Speaker 1: codependent person goes into that place, they are absolutely dependent
18:23
Speaker 1: on what another person is doing for their own sense
18:27
Speaker 1: of happiness or security, which, as you can imagine, puts
18:32
Speaker 1: them really into a place of powerlessness and dependence because
18:36
Speaker 1: they are unable to feel okay independently. Hence the term dependence.
18:45
Speaker 1: They're dependent on their partner for their own sense of
18:49
Speaker 1: well being and attempting to change the way they feel
18:53
Speaker 1: by controlling someone else's behavior. And, of course, as you
18:58
Speaker 1: can imagine, because it is essentially impossible to control someone
19:03
Speaker 1: else or change someone else, people who have a codependent
19:07
Speaker 1: orientation to relationships usually feel absolutely exhausted and depleted and
19:15
Speaker 1: resentful and angry and so incredibly frustrated because they feel
19:22
Speaker 1: so powerless and they're putting so much energy and trying
19:26
Speaker 1: to get their partner to change so they can be okay,
19:28
Speaker 1: and it's not working. So it's a really difficult space
19:33
Speaker 1: to be in. And so first of all, the very
19:38
Speaker 1: very very first thing that we always do with codependent
19:42
Speaker 1: dynamics is, first of all, we have to raise awareness
19:47
Speaker 1: in either the couple, if people are coming in together,
19:51
Speaker 1: or if it's an individual person who's you know, coming
19:54
Speaker 1: in for help on their own, to talk about how
19:58
Speaker 1: incredibly distressed they are what's happening in their relationship, which
20:01
Speaker 1: also happens. The first thing we have to do is
20:04
Speaker 1: get clarity around what's going on and helping people if
20:11
Speaker 1: this is what it is, but helping people figure out
20:14
Speaker 1: how much of their power and time and energy and
20:19
Speaker 1: mental energy, emotional energy are they giving away to this
20:25
Speaker 1: codependent dynamic without even realizing it. So let me ask
20:31
Speaker 1: you some of the questions that I often ask clients
20:36
Speaker 1: who are grappling with this question.
20:46
Speaker 2: Time to talk about success.
20:48
Speaker 1: If you have a growing business and you've been thinking
20:51
Speaker 1: about bringing in some help, check out up work.
20:54
Speaker 2: It is my go to.
20:56
Speaker 1: I've used it for years and I cannot recommend upwark highly.
21:00
Speaker 1: Upwork is full of amazing people and you can find
21:03
Speaker 1: the right freelancer for whatever you need, marketing, web design, operations,
21:09
Speaker 1: all of it. I love the fact that you can
21:11
Speaker 1: search on upwork for exactly what you're looking for. See
21:15
Speaker 1: available freelancers, read their profiles, check out reviews before reaching out,
21:21
Speaker 1: and then once you do start with someone, they have
21:24
Speaker 1: a great system for managing your costs and also keeping
21:27
Speaker 1: track of what people are working on. It is a fast,
21:30
Speaker 1: easy way to bring in the right person at the
21:32
Speaker 1: right time and maybe even find yourself a unicorn. Visit
21:36
Speaker 1: upwork dot com right now and post your job for free.
21:39
Speaker 1: That's upwork dot com. Up woork dot com to connect
21:45
Speaker 1: with top talent ready to help your business grow.
21:48
Speaker 2: That's upwork dot com.
22:04
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about success, my friend, When I started
22:07
Speaker 1: my business growing self. Nobody handed me a manual. Every
22:12
Speaker 1: single day brought a new decision, and the to do
22:15
Speaker 1: list grew faster than I could keep up with. So
22:18
Speaker 1: finding one tool that simplifies the whole thing, that changes everything,
22:24
Speaker 1: and for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify
22:30
Speaker 1: is the commerce platform behind ten percent of all e
22:34
Speaker 1: commerce in the US, from household names to businesses just
22:38
Speaker 1: getting started. You can run everything, email, social campaigns like
22:43
Speaker 1: you've got a marketing team behind you, and Shopify's world
22:46
Speaker 1: class commerce expertise covers everything from managing inventory to international
22:52
Speaker 1: shipping to processing returns. Start your business today with the
22:56
Speaker 1: industry's best business partner Shopify and start hearing. Sign up
23:03
Speaker 1: for your one dollar per month trial today at shopify
23:06
Speaker 1: dot com slash lhs. Go to shopify dot com slash lhs.
23:11
Speaker 1: That is one last time is shopify dot com slash lhs.
23:23
Speaker 1: One would be do you persistently feel frustrated, upset, or
23:30
Speaker 1: angry at your partner's inability to make changes? You're kind
23:35
Speaker 1: of always annoyed. You really want them to be doing
23:38
Speaker 1: something different and they're not, to keep not doing it
23:40
Speaker 1: over and over again. That would be clue one that
23:43
Speaker 1: there's a codependent dynamic at work, and particularly if that
23:47
Speaker 1: question number one is yes, and it is also coupled
23:51
Speaker 1: with a true answer on this question, do you believe
23:56
Speaker 1: that your relationship problems and like even life problems would
24:01
Speaker 1: be resolved if only your partner would change in some way?
24:08
Speaker 1: And then, thirdly, do you personally feel like it's hard
24:13
Speaker 1: for you to be happy or you feel good about
24:17
Speaker 1: yourself and your life because of things that your partner
24:21
Speaker 1: is doing or not doing. And so, if you answered
24:25
Speaker 1: yes to all three of those questions on my little
24:28
Speaker 1: mini codependence quiz, you may be struggling with a codependent
24:33
Speaker 1: dynamic in your relationship. And if so, I have a
24:38
Speaker 1: lot of empathy for that, because you are likely feeling
24:41
Speaker 1: really annoyed and stressed and like even hyper vigilant a
24:46
Speaker 1: lot of the time. It's a very difficult place to
24:48
Speaker 1: be in. And so that's why I wanted to talk
24:51
Speaker 1: about this today in order to give you some clarity
24:55
Speaker 1: and some strategies. So I feel like we're kind of
24:58
Speaker 1: talking about this in theoretical terms right now, and sometimes
25:02
Speaker 1: I think it's easier to illustrate examples by telling you
25:06
Speaker 1: stories instead So one example that immediately comes to mind
25:11
Speaker 1: to illustrate this, and I think so many of us
25:14
Speaker 1: can relate to, is one one couple who is kind
25:18
Speaker 1: of a you know, missimash of many couples. But but
25:22
Speaker 1: if we were to distill it all down, you know,
25:24
Speaker 1: coming in and one person is sitting on the couch
25:29
Speaker 1: or in the video session and just like vibrating with
25:33
Speaker 1: anger and annoyance about all the things that their partner
25:35
Speaker 1: is doing and can't wait to tell me about it,
25:38
Speaker 1: and and the you know, legitimate things like you know,
25:42
Speaker 1: I found another beer bottle in the trash can when
25:44
Speaker 1: he said that he wasn't going to drink on school nights,
25:47
Speaker 1: or he said he was going to mow the lawn
25:49
Speaker 1: and he didn't, or you know, she came home late again,
25:53
Speaker 1: and it's I can't make plans and I feel like,
25:56
Speaker 1: you know, she's always leaving me holding the bag with
25:59
Speaker 1: houseworker kids or whatever, are going out with our friends,
26:03
Speaker 1: like they're the type of complaints can be endless, and
26:07
Speaker 1: they vary and and just to to say this, what
26:12
Speaker 1: I'm talking about in this podcast here with you is
26:15
Speaker 1: going to be in the spectrum of like garden variety
26:18
Speaker 1: codependent dynamics, and if you are, you know, in the
26:23
Speaker 1: unfortunate circumstance of being in a relationship where there's really
26:26
Speaker 1: serious stuff going on with your partner, like substance abuse
26:30
Speaker 1: problems or you know, serious like mental health issues that
26:34
Speaker 1: are untreated, You're probably going to resonate with some of
26:39
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, but the strategies won't work as
26:42
Speaker 1: well in that situation because of the just it's a
26:46
Speaker 1: different animal. And I would refer you to other podcasts
26:49
Speaker 1: that I have created on related topics. I think one
26:52
Speaker 1: is it's called what to Do When your Partner has
26:56
Speaker 1: a Problem, And I think I also did a podcast
27:01
Speaker 1: a while back around you know, how to get somebody
27:03
Speaker 1: else to change if they have really serious stuff. So
27:06
Speaker 1: scuirrell back through the episodes and you'll find them. But
27:10
Speaker 1: this situation that we're talking about is, you know, a
27:13
Speaker 1: couple where one person is absolutely so frustrated, so angry,
27:18
Speaker 1: and also oftentimes feeling very like self righteous in their anger.
27:23
Speaker 1: Is you know, really feeling like their partner is behaving
27:26
Speaker 1: so badly and that they just can't stand it anymore,
27:29
Speaker 1: and they're starting to many times like lose respect for
27:32
Speaker 1: their partner, but really just putting so much energy into
27:37
Speaker 1: trying to get their partner to change. And sometimes it's nagging,
27:41
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's arguing, and sometimes it's just doing things
27:44
Speaker 1: for them, but sort of resentfully. I mean, it can
27:47
Speaker 1: take all sorts of different forms, and that is the
27:50
Speaker 1: sort of you know, operating emotional space that the partner
27:54
Speaker 1: who's like really wishing the other person could be different
27:57
Speaker 1: stays in all the time. And then on the other
28:01
Speaker 1: side of this, the person who is the change e
28:04
Speaker 1: that is, the person in the relationship that has been
28:07
Speaker 1: identified as the one who has all these problems that
28:09
Speaker 1: need to be changed, is often feeling incredibly resentful. Sullen
28:15
Speaker 1: withdrawn often puts just as much energy into minimizing their
28:21
Speaker 1: partner's feelings. Oh it's not that they get the deal.
28:23
Speaker 1: You need to lighten up. It's not that bad, it's
28:26
Speaker 1: just fine. You know. That is often this dynamic, and
28:32
Speaker 1: you know, it becomes a very very well developed and
28:40
Speaker 1: entrenched relational dynamic where one partner is pursuing the other
28:45
Speaker 1: in efforts to get them to change, respond, listen to
28:47
Speaker 1: something differently, and the other person, in response is with
28:52
Speaker 1: drawing and becoming less emotionally available, less responsive, less often
28:58
Speaker 1: considerate and thoughtful. And so then what that leads to
29:02
Speaker 1: is an increase in the anger and resentment and kind
29:06
Speaker 1: of pursuing of partner number one. And so as you
29:09
Speaker 1: can imagine, this gets more and more intense over time.
29:17
Speaker 1: And you know, I think we can all relate to
29:20
Speaker 1: this experience, probably even on both sides. I mean, you know,
29:24
Speaker 1: it's I think everybody who's been in a relationship over
29:27
Speaker 1: five years has at least at some point had well
29:29
Speaker 1: developed ideas about what their partner should do in order
29:33
Speaker 1: to make things better. So if only my partner exercised more,
29:37
Speaker 1: drink less, or eight healthier foods, or took on time depressants,
29:41
Speaker 1: or stop playing so much video game, you know, I mean, whatever,
29:43
Speaker 1: then then it would be better for us. And on
29:47
Speaker 1: the other side of that, I think many of us
29:51
Speaker 1: can also relate to being the recipient of that kind
29:54
Speaker 1: of criticism and that constant like, you know, feeling like
29:58
Speaker 1: you're never doing anything right and that you're not quite
30:02
Speaker 1: good enough the way that you are, and how bad
30:04
Speaker 1: that feels. So that's the dynamic on both sides. And
30:10
Speaker 1: so that's many times where people start when they come
30:15
Speaker 1: to us for couples counseling, and I just I wanted
30:18
Speaker 1: to kind of like bring that to life a little
30:20
Speaker 1: bit more to see if any of those things that
30:23
Speaker 1: are things that you could relate to. And the problem
30:28
Speaker 1: is really that what happens is that over time couples
30:34
Speaker 1: become more and more polarized into each of these positions.
30:38
Speaker 1: The partner who is righteously indignant is becoming more and
30:42
Speaker 1: more convinced that you know, they have the answers and
30:46
Speaker 1: their partner needs to do X y z, and every
30:48
Speaker 1: time they don't do X y Z, it is more
30:51
Speaker 1: information that their partner can't meet their needs or be
30:55
Speaker 1: a good partner or you know, that they're ever going
30:57
Speaker 1: to have the kind of relationship or like that they
30:59
Speaker 1: want and kind of falling into this despair. And also
31:03
Speaker 1: it creates a dynamic where the person who is really
31:07
Speaker 1: like in that codependent place will oftentimes become extremely hyper
31:12
Speaker 1: vigilant to notice what is he doing? Did he clean
31:16
Speaker 1: the kitchen, did he take out the trash, did he
31:19
Speaker 1: drink too much? What is going on? Or you know,
31:21
Speaker 1: don't I don't want to make it very gendery. It
31:23
Speaker 1: happens with you know, both ways with men and women.
31:26
Speaker 1: It happens in same sex relationships. But but you know,
31:29
Speaker 1: there's this like constant on edge of I have to
31:34
Speaker 1: monitor and police and nag and almost like supervise my
31:38
Speaker 1: partner to make sure they are doing the things that
31:41
Speaker 1: they need to be doing in order for us to
31:44
Speaker 1: have a good life together. It's like I need to
31:49
Speaker 1: make my partner be the person that I need them
31:52
Speaker 1: to be, because the person as they are, I don't
31:57
Speaker 1: totally like them. I don't trust them. I doubt they competence,
32:00
Speaker 1: I don't think they make good decisions. And I feel
32:03
Speaker 1: like if I wasn't making them do what they needed
32:08
Speaker 1: to do and be who they needed to be, our
32:11
Speaker 1: lives would fall apart. Important things wouldn't get done, Bills
32:16
Speaker 1: would go unpaid, things would bounce, we wouldn't have groceries,
32:20
Speaker 1: we wouldn't get places on time, the kids wouldn't get
32:22
Speaker 1: their needs met. And as you can imagine, to be
32:26
Speaker 1: in this space where it feels like you are the
32:29
Speaker 1: one that has to be the policeman or police woman
32:33
Speaker 1: of everything and like always kind of on guard to
32:35
Speaker 1: make sure that things are happening the way they are
32:38
Speaker 1: or should be. Rather it is absolutely exhausting. It is
32:43
Speaker 1: so stressful. It feels like you can never let your
32:46
Speaker 1: guard down, you can't relax, you know. And I just
32:50
Speaker 1: wanted to say this to kind of like bring some
32:53
Speaker 1: empathy into this, because I think that there's like a
32:56
Speaker 1: caricature stereotype of a naggy person or controlling. We like
33:02
Speaker 1: to throw the word controlling around around, you know, do
33:05
Speaker 1: it this way, do it that way? Why didn't you
33:07
Speaker 1: blah blah that. You know, it's it's very easy to
33:12
Speaker 1: see a person who is inhabiting in that space as
33:15
Speaker 1: being overbearing or you know, overly what's the word, Yeah, controlling,
33:22
Speaker 1: I think is the one that comes up most often.
33:24
Speaker 1: And can we all just agree though, that the emotional
33:29
Speaker 1: experience of people who are behaving that way is one
33:34
Speaker 1: of anxiety and fear. I have personally never met anyone
33:42
Speaker 1: who is, you know, behaving in ways that are controlling,
33:46
Speaker 1: who has not when I help them talk about what's
33:49
Speaker 1: going on, shared that they have this overwhelming sense of
33:56
Speaker 1: like fear and anxiety about what would happen if they
34:00
Speaker 1: stopped being air quote controlling, if they just let things
34:04
Speaker 1: go and stopped paying attention to what's happening and what
34:07
Speaker 1: should be happening and who's doing what that things would
34:09
Speaker 1: actually fall apart. And also I don't think I've ever
34:14
Speaker 1: met an air quote controlling person who has not wished
34:18
Speaker 1: and longed on a very deep level to relax and
34:23
Speaker 1: to be in a safe place with a person that
34:27
Speaker 1: they trusted to just handle things for them so that
34:32
Speaker 1: they could finally rest and feel taken care of and
34:35
Speaker 1: support it and not have to be worried and on
34:38
Speaker 1: eggshells that if they, you know, aren't vigilant for five minutes,
34:41
Speaker 1: something terrible is going to happen. People who are in
34:45
Speaker 1: this space are overfunctioning, and they are overly you know,
34:51
Speaker 1: alert and overly active in a relationship because it feels
34:57
Speaker 1: like they have to be. Oh, if you are listening
35:01
Speaker 1: to this podcast and you are in a relationship with
35:04
Speaker 1: someone and you feel like they are nagging at you
35:07
Speaker 1: and criticizing you and being overly controlling and like, why
35:11
Speaker 1: don't you do this? You should be more? Let me.
35:14
Speaker 1: I would invite you to consider why that might make
35:18
Speaker 1: sense from their perspective, and that you have a lot
35:24
Speaker 1: of power to change the system because they will step
35:30
Speaker 1: back in direct proportion to their experience of you stepping forward.
35:38
Speaker 1: They would love nothing more than to say, great, you
35:42
Speaker 1: cook dinner, I'll be over here, and they would love
35:45
Speaker 1: to do that, but they might not trust you to
35:48
Speaker 1: do that. So there's that to consider. It's really important
35:55
Speaker 1: to think about systemic dynamics in these situations because the
36:03
Speaker 1: alternative is that if we're not aware of the systemic dynamics.
36:08
Speaker 1: The alternative is to develop a narrative about your partner
36:12
Speaker 1: and the type of person they are, and that leads
36:15
Speaker 1: to all sorts of things. So, for example, if you
36:19
Speaker 1: label your partners being controlling and unreasonable and that's just
36:22
Speaker 1: the way they are, that's like their character, their personality,
36:26
Speaker 1: where do you go from there? Right? And it's usually
36:30
Speaker 1: not true. There's always a reason why people are the
36:34
Speaker 1: way they are, and a reason that is very understandable
36:37
Speaker 1: and that we can work with. But you have to
36:39
Speaker 1: see your partner with empathy. So I wanted to leave
36:42
Speaker 1: you with that. Now let's talk about this from the
36:46
Speaker 1: other side. So if you are the one who has
36:51
Speaker 1: been really just putting in so much energy to try
36:55
Speaker 1: to get your partner to understand and to change, they
37:00
Speaker 1: have noticed that it's not that effective. I mean really,
37:06
Speaker 1: like you know, Most people who are doing this and
37:09
Speaker 1: engaging in these kinds of codependent behaviors are trying over
37:14
Speaker 1: and over and over again to get their partner to
37:17
Speaker 1: be different and listen to them and respond to them
37:19
Speaker 1: and do things a different way, or they give up
37:22
Speaker 1: and just start doing everything for their partner because they
37:25
Speaker 1: have lost confidence in their partner's ability to follow through.
37:29
Speaker 1: And it takes such a toll, such a toll on you.
37:32
Speaker 1: And the thing that can be hard to see when
37:38
Speaker 1: you're doing this is that when you put so much
37:44
Speaker 1: energy and effort and take so much responsibility on yourself
37:49
Speaker 1: for things, you actually make it less likely that the
37:54
Speaker 1: other person is going to step up and do things
37:59
Speaker 1: differently response to you. And I know that's incredibly frustrating
38:03
Speaker 1: because it feels like you're trying to make things happen
38:07
Speaker 1: and you're trying to protect yourself and the family and
38:11
Speaker 1: even them by doing all that you do. But paradoxically,
38:16
Speaker 1: it leads on a systemic level to a persistence of
38:22
Speaker 1: the problem that you are seeking to change. And I mean,
38:27
Speaker 1: reflect on this if you will. Is it true that
38:30
Speaker 1: the more you care about change and what your partner
38:35
Speaker 1: is doing or not doing, it seems like the less
38:37
Speaker 1: they care, or the more they fight you on it,
38:41
Speaker 1: or the more they tend to minimize and dismiss what
38:44
Speaker 1: you're saying. That is what happens over time. It creates
38:49
Speaker 1: this power imbalance. And even though it may feel like
38:56
Speaker 1: the person who is doing the running around and being
38:59
Speaker 1: upset and trying to things to be different feels like
39:02
Speaker 1: the dominant personality and the relationship, in truth and in practice,
39:07
Speaker 1: you actually become disempowered and have much less power than
39:15
Speaker 1: your kind of passive partner as the months and years progress,
39:20
Speaker 1: because you are killing yourself and putting in all this
39:24
Speaker 1: energy and effort and they're like watching her around, run
39:28
Speaker 1: around like a crazy person. They're like, you need to relax,
39:31
Speaker 1: just chill out, you know. And so it doesn't work.
39:37
Speaker 1: And now that we have kind of talked about the
39:41
Speaker 1: dynamics of codependent relationships, I'd like to turn our attention
39:47
Speaker 1: to the emotional kind of underpinnings and what can change it.
39:54
Speaker 1: And so the thing that is really important to understand,
40:00
Speaker 1: and the part that gets missed for many many couples
40:03
Speaker 1: in this dynamic is that people get so focused on
40:07
Speaker 1: what is happening or isn't happening or what the partner
40:10
Speaker 1: is doing or not doing. The attention is much less
40:16
Speaker 1: about their internal experience and about the feelings underneath all
40:19
Speaker 1: of this on both sides than it is about the
40:24
Speaker 1: signals or the behaviors or the communication patterns. And so
40:29
Speaker 1: I think it's really important for people who are in
40:32
Speaker 1: the active side of a codependent relationship to really make
40:36
Speaker 1: contact with a level of fear they have around what
40:41
Speaker 1: could happen if they've stopped, and to really get a
40:45
Speaker 1: handle on how much of their own personal power and
40:51
Speaker 1: their own happiness and their own satisfaction with their life
40:55
Speaker 1: is really so highly dependent on what their parts or
41:00
Speaker 1: is doing and on the relationship itself, because that in
41:03
Speaker 1: itself can be just a huge awakening, like, oh my gosh,
41:08
Speaker 1: I am spending most of my time being anxious and
41:11
Speaker 1: upset about this what this person is doing or how
41:14
Speaker 1: they're behaving, and I I can't live like that anymore.
41:20
Speaker 1: And it's in that kind of moment of recognition that
41:24
Speaker 1: power gets taken back. And now I'm talking about this
41:27
Speaker 1: as usual, like it's an easy thing. People often don't
41:31
Speaker 1: arrive to this place without, you know, a lot of
41:35
Speaker 1: growth and work that is achieved through either individual therapy
41:39
Speaker 1: or coaching, or through couple's works, where people can can
41:43
Speaker 1: move into the space where they're like, you know what,
41:47
Speaker 1: this whole control thing has been an illusion anyway. Even
41:52
Speaker 1: though I am managing my anxiety because I feel like
41:55
Speaker 1: I am in control of the situation, I am really,
41:58
Speaker 1: quite objectively not in control of the situation because these
42:02
Speaker 1: things keep happening, and you know what, I don't want
42:06
Speaker 1: to do this anymore. This is not good for me.
42:12
Speaker 1: And there's also an increase in anxiety when that happens,
42:16
Speaker 1: because you know, if somebody stops being the police person,
42:21
Speaker 1: your partner might drink too much or spend too much money,
42:25
Speaker 1: or not follow through with things, or ruin their health
42:27
Speaker 1: with junk food, or waste their lives playing video games.
42:30
Speaker 1: But can we just agree that they're basically doing that anyway,
42:36
Speaker 1: with or without your hypervilegence vigilance. They're just like trying
42:40
Speaker 1: to hide it from you and fighting with you about it.
42:43
Speaker 1: And so what is a much more productive space to
42:49
Speaker 1: go into is this idea and this new recognition that
42:55
Speaker 1: for many people, the core of the anxiety is around
43:01
Speaker 1: the practical matters, certainly, but when you really dig down
43:04
Speaker 1: into it. There's almost this like existential crisis that comes
43:08
Speaker 1: out around can I be with this person? Can I
43:15
Speaker 1: maintain my marriage and my family with this person? Because
43:22
Speaker 1: it feels like I can't. What is happening now feels
43:27
Speaker 1: unsustainable to me, and so I am twisting myself into
43:31
Speaker 1: pretzels trying to get my partner to be a partner
43:35
Speaker 1: with me so that we can have a nice life together.
43:39
Speaker 1: And I'm so afraid that if they won't do it,
43:43
Speaker 1: I will have to go. And that's like this core
43:47
Speaker 1: like fear that many people make contact with when they
43:51
Speaker 1: begin grappling with this. It's very very powerful and can
43:55
Speaker 1: be very interesting to make contact with and share in
44:02
Speaker 1: a vulnerable way with the partner who has been creating
44:07
Speaker 1: so much pain that you feel has been creating so
44:11
Speaker 1: much pain, because it really turns it into being less
44:17
Speaker 1: about them and more about you and what you can
44:23
Speaker 1: tolerate and what you can't and what your options are
44:29
Speaker 1: in this situation. Now, let's talk about self care. Part
44:40
Speaker 1: of my personal daily ritual is Oca skincare, and especially
44:45
Speaker 1: Oca's anti aging body Bomb. It has this liquid silk texture,
44:50
Speaker 1: It sinks it fast, and every time after using it,
44:53
Speaker 1: I notice my skin feels smoother, firmer, more supple. And
44:57
Speaker 1: I'm not the only one. In their consumer's stef ninety
45:00
Speaker 1: four percent of women said the same thing. And these
45:04
Speaker 1: are values aligned products, you guys. There, clean clinically tested,
45:09
Speaker 1: made of seaweed. It's good for us, good for the earth.
45:12
Speaker 1: But honestly, it's the ritual, it's the self care that
45:17
Speaker 1: is the win. You too, can get a spring worthy
45:21
Speaker 1: glow with clean clinically tested skincare from OCEA. And right
45:26
Speaker 1: now they've made a special discount code just for our listeners.
45:30
Speaker 1: Get ten percent off your first order site wide with
45:33
Speaker 1: code l h S at OCEA Malibu dot com. That's
45:37
Speaker 1: O s e A m A l I b U
45:42
Speaker 1: dot com code l HS. We talk a lot on
45:57
Speaker 1: this show about the mind body connection and which keeps
46:00
Speaker 1: showing that metabolic health is directly tied to mental health.
46:05
Speaker 1: I personally have been experimenting with thoughtful intermittent fasting for
46:09
Speaker 1: both energy and cognitive clarity. But I know firsthand that
46:13
Speaker 1: fasting on your own is really hard and you can
46:17
Speaker 1: end up tired, foggy, hungry. That is why I'm so
46:21
Speaker 1: glad to introduce you to proloon. This is a five
46:24
Speaker 1: day plant based fasting program developed with USC's Longevity Institute,
46:30
Speaker 1: and so you can actually eat all kinds of stuff, soup, snacks, beverages.
46:34
Speaker 1: It's also convenient, science backed and just so much easier
46:38
Speaker 1: than trying to do it on your own. If you're
46:40
Speaker 1: ready for your own reset. For a limited time, ProLAN
46:43
Speaker 1: is offering love, Happiness and Success listeners fifteen person off
46:48
Speaker 1: site wide, plus a forty dollars bonus gift when you
46:50
Speaker 1: subscribe to their five day program. Just visit prolonlife dot
46:54
Speaker 1: com slash lhs that's pr l O n l s
47:00
Speaker 1: e dot com slash lahs to claim your fifteen percent
47:03
Speaker 1: discount and your bonus gift prol on life dot com
47:07
Speaker 1: slash lahs. So many times what this kind of exploration
47:20
Speaker 1: leads to are productive conversations between two people where there's
47:26
Speaker 1: like a new recognition of why the struggle is happening
47:31
Speaker 1: and the really powerful and understandable like noble intentions and
47:38
Speaker 1: attachment needs both people are bringing to the table. You know,
47:42
Speaker 1: many times, on the other side of this, people who
47:45
Speaker 1: have been functioning in a manner that is different than
47:52
Speaker 1: how their partner would like them to be sometimes is
47:55
Speaker 1: feeling very withdrawn because they feel like they're going to
47:59
Speaker 1: be rejected did anyway whatever they do is wrong, so
48:03
Speaker 1: why even try? Or they feel like there isn't space
48:07
Speaker 1: for them to bring their own way of doing things
48:12
Speaker 1: to the table in the relationship, like and so they
48:15
Speaker 1: really feel minimized and diminished, so they kind of give
48:19
Speaker 1: up and stop trying in some ways, but they're also
48:23
Speaker 1: underneath of that can be a very real experience where,
48:28
Speaker 1: believe it or not, some people have arrived in adulthood
48:33
Speaker 1: without having the same you know, set of skills around
48:38
Speaker 1: getting things done, prioritizing activities, managing time. You know, I
48:44
Speaker 1: mean to be very like task oriented and a planner
48:48
Speaker 1: and like you know, executive functioning skills. If I do this,
48:53
Speaker 1: then this will happen. I shouldn't stay up to late
48:56
Speaker 1: playing video games because I have to get up for
48:59
Speaker 1: work in the morning. And you know, it is not
49:03
Speaker 1: that unusual, Like, well, it doesn't happen all the times,
49:08
Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes when I'm working with couples who
49:10
Speaker 1: have this kind of dynamic, we discover that, you know,
49:14
Speaker 1: the partner who has been maybe struggling to do some
49:18
Speaker 1: things that is creating a lot of anxiety and stress
49:20
Speaker 1: for their spouse has undiagnosed ADHD that has never been
49:27
Speaker 1: recognized or dealt with or treated, And so you know,
49:30
Speaker 1: they're behaving in a way that isn't actually consistent with
49:33
Speaker 1: adult success and it's driving their partner insane. But they
49:36
Speaker 1: really legitimately do not know how else to be because
49:40
Speaker 1: they've never talked about it before, they've never considered it before.
49:44
Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes couple's work turns into almost coaching
49:50
Speaker 1: around how do you keep track of what needs to
49:54
Speaker 1: be done throughout the week so that your partner doesn't
49:57
Speaker 1: have to be the one who's always managing the time
50:00
Speaker 1: activities for everybody? How do we begin to develop those
50:03
Speaker 1: skills so that you can do these things. So I
50:06
Speaker 1: just want to float the possibility that it isn't always
50:10
Speaker 1: that a partner you know won't do these things because
50:13
Speaker 1: they're being contrarian and obstructionist. It may actually be that
50:17
Speaker 1: they don't know how to do these things as well
50:21
Speaker 1: as you do. It can also be true sometimes that
50:23
Speaker 1: partners have different values or expectations around things that are
50:29
Speaker 1: related to how things were done in their family of origin.
50:32
Speaker 1: If you grew up in a family where there are
50:34
Speaker 1: very kind of well defined gender roles and your partner
50:38
Speaker 1: wants you to be doing things that were not done
50:41
Speaker 1: by people of your gender in your home. It's going
50:45
Speaker 1: to create confusion, and that in itself can lead to
50:48
Speaker 1: these kinds of dynamics in a relationship. But regardless of
50:54
Speaker 1: the reason why, the first step in resolving this dynamic
50:58
Speaker 1: is getting to the body of why it's happening to
51:02
Speaker 1: see if anything can be done to change the functioning itself.
51:08
Speaker 1: Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes the answer is no,
51:12
Speaker 1: and changing the functioning of the partner who may be
51:16
Speaker 1: under functioning in the relationship, but also maybe doing some
51:19
Speaker 1: work around the expectations and values of the partner who
51:24
Speaker 1: believes that all of these things need to be happening.
51:26
Speaker 1: To ask some questions in a safe, compassionate, non judgmental
51:31
Speaker 1: space around why do you believe that we need to
51:38
Speaker 1: have a protein, a fruit, and a starch warmed up
51:42
Speaker 1: at breakfast every morning, or else you're both failing as parents.
51:46
Speaker 1: Some people eat cereal most of the time and they're okay.
51:52
Speaker 1: So let's talk about where some of these ideas about
51:55
Speaker 1: what breakfast should look like came from. I mean a
52:00
Speaker 1: more trivial example, right, But I mean you'd be amazed
52:03
Speaker 1: at what I think we all take as being the
52:09
Speaker 1: truth from our family of origs and experience and then
52:12
Speaker 1: apply that truth to other people. We are measuring our
52:17
Speaker 1: partners by our own yard stick without even being aware
52:22
Speaker 1: that we are carrying a yard stick and holding it
52:25
Speaker 1: up to other people and saying no, no, no, we
52:28
Speaker 1: cannot have a granola bar for breakfast. That is not sufficient.
52:32
Speaker 1: It needs to be an egg or a waffle. So
52:35
Speaker 1: I mean it's like we all carry that and many
52:39
Speaker 1: times there's a period in couples counseling and relationship coaching
52:43
Speaker 1: where we have to do a deep dive into what
52:45
Speaker 1: those things are because they are blind spots. We do
52:49
Speaker 1: not know what we are expecting or projecting on other people.
52:52
Speaker 1: It is subconscious until we do this type of focused
52:56
Speaker 1: growth work, which can be incredibly productive and open so
52:59
Speaker 1: many doors. So that's kind of phase two of recovering
53:04
Speaker 1: from a codependent dynamic. Now phase three can happen in
53:10
Speaker 1: addition to sometimes instead of phase two, and this is
53:16
Speaker 1: where the person who has been trying to be the
53:21
Speaker 1: change agent in the relationship and feeling, you know, really
53:25
Speaker 1: bad and anxious and angry and stressed a lot of
53:30
Speaker 1: the time, may arrive in a place again where they
53:36
Speaker 1: have decided that they don't want to feel that way anymore,
53:41
Speaker 1: and it may be that their partner is not able
53:45
Speaker 1: or willing to work with them on creating the dynamic
53:49
Speaker 1: to step forward a little bit more so that they
53:51
Speaker 1: can step back. And in this case stage three, you
53:56
Speaker 1: need to take take your power back through your own volition.
54:01
Speaker 1: And what this means is almost like repeating this mantra
54:06
Speaker 1: to yourself of I am only in charge of me.
54:11
Speaker 1: I can only control myself. I am responsible for my
54:17
Speaker 1: own happiness. I am responsible for the quality of my life.
54:23
Speaker 1: I am in charge of me and my outcomes. And
54:29
Speaker 1: when this happens, when the formerly codependent person stops trying
54:33
Speaker 1: to control other people and instead really shifts into taking
54:37
Speaker 1: responsibility for themselves and the quality of their life independent
54:43
Speaker 1: from what their partner is going to do or not do,
54:46
Speaker 1: they will feel happier and more confident and more at peace.
54:52
Speaker 1: They will also have to work through some anxiety that
54:56
Speaker 1: will immediately spike around what will happen if I just
55:00
Speaker 1: start focusing on me and stop being so concerned about
55:03
Speaker 1: what my partner is doing or not doing that we
55:05
Speaker 1: do also have to deal with. But but you know
55:08
Speaker 1: it can be achieved. I think through a very deliberate
55:12
Speaker 1: intentional growth period where you start thinking a little bit
55:15
Speaker 1: more about what you need and how else you can
55:19
Speaker 1: get it if you are not getting it currently from
55:22
Speaker 1: your partner and from this relationship. So, you know, many
55:25
Speaker 1: times people might say, I have been working my tail
55:29
Speaker 1: off to create you know, all this set of circumstances
55:32
Speaker 1: in my home, and I haven't done anything fun for
55:36
Speaker 1: myself and I don't even know how long. I can't
55:39
Speaker 1: remember the last time I got some exercise or spent
55:42
Speaker 1: time with one of my friends. And you know, I
55:44
Speaker 1: feel like I'm always so angry and what feels positive
55:49
Speaker 1: and good to me? Where can I get my energy
55:54
Speaker 1: replenished and nourished if this particular well is currently dry?
56:00
Speaker 1: And so sometimes this turns into you know, spending more
56:04
Speaker 1: time doing other things and taking care of what you can,
56:11
Speaker 1: and in doing so, you are helped to kind of
56:15
Speaker 1: manage your own anxiety and feel happier and more content,
56:18
Speaker 1: and it's like less dependent on your partner for your
56:24
Speaker 1: sense of well being. So, going back to that idea
56:27
Speaker 1: co dependent. When you're a codependent, your sense of self
56:32
Speaker 1: and safety and security and happiness is entirely dependent on
56:36
Speaker 1: your partner. And we're going to shift that so that
56:39
Speaker 1: you can be okay no matter what they decide to do.
56:45
Speaker 1: And so oftentimes what happens here in practice is that
56:49
Speaker 1: when people are getting their needs met and just going
56:52
Speaker 1: about their lives is they wish to and not thinking
56:57
Speaker 1: quite as much about their partner, they feel better. They
57:00
Speaker 1: often stop nagging, they stop caring as much about what
57:03
Speaker 1: their partner is doing or not doing, and there's like
57:06
Speaker 1: this new dynamic where the partner who had been withdrawn
57:13
Speaker 1: and kind of like fighting for their independence and no,
57:17
Speaker 1: you can't control me and tell me what to do.
57:19
Speaker 1: When that stops, they're sort of like, oh, nobody's telling
57:24
Speaker 1: me to stop playing video games at two am, so
57:27
Speaker 1: I'm going to stay here till five am and play
57:29
Speaker 1: video games. And you know, just they are being themselves.
57:33
Speaker 1: And what happens is that scary as it. Maybe they
57:37
Speaker 1: begin to experience natural consequences for their own decisions. They
57:44
Speaker 1: have hangovers, they miss work meetings, They start to have
57:49
Speaker 1: overdraft fees on their checking account because they forgot to
57:52
Speaker 1: pay the bill, and instead of their overfunctioning partner getting
57:57
Speaker 1: angry about it or rescuing them or berating them into behaving,
58:02
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it is really on them and
58:06
Speaker 1: they are experiencing the consequences for their problems, and it
58:10
Speaker 1: is on them to figure out how to fix it,
58:13
Speaker 1: and in doing so, two things happen. It sends a
58:19
Speaker 1: lot of clear messages to both people in this dynamic.
58:23
Speaker 1: The overfunctioning person moves into this space of I deserve
58:28
Speaker 1: to be happy and I know what I need to
58:31
Speaker 1: be happy, and I am not sure if you can
58:35
Speaker 1: be part of my life if I am actually going
58:38
Speaker 1: to be happy because this is not currently working for me,
58:40
Speaker 1: and it's not a threat. It is not a threat.
58:44
Speaker 2: It's this.
58:46
Speaker 1: Truth of I don't know that I can tolerate this,
58:50
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to tolerate it. So you know,
58:53
Speaker 1: let me know if you would like to work on
58:55
Speaker 1: this with me. I'll be over here. There's the fighting
59:01
Speaker 1: kind of stops, and what also happens is that, you know,
59:05
Speaker 1: it can be very easy in this type of dynamic
59:08
Speaker 1: for the underfunctioning partner to have a lot of like
59:12
Speaker 1: on this passive aggressive hostility towards their spouse and like
59:17
Speaker 1: kind of secretly blaming their partner for being so controlling
59:21
Speaker 1: and naggy and critical, and you know, and and when
59:25
Speaker 1: they begin experiencing consequences for their own actions, there is
59:28
Speaker 1: this new sense of clarity that what they are doing
59:33
Speaker 1: is actually not working for them, and it raises their
59:39
Speaker 1: anxiety enormously because it sort of turns into this existential
59:45
Speaker 1: crisis of if I am going to nobody's coming to
59:50
Speaker 1: save me, you know, and if I am going to
59:51
Speaker 1: maintain my relationship with this person and you know, my
59:55
Speaker 1: family and have the life I want. I have to
59:59
Speaker 1: figure out how to do these things. Because before it
1:00:03
Speaker 1: was my partner's problem, they were the ones that were
1:00:07
Speaker 1: stressed out and anxious about it. But they're not anymore.
1:00:11
Speaker 1: Now it is my problem, and I need to get
1:00:15
Speaker 1: stressed and anxious about it and figure out how to
1:00:17
Speaker 1: change it or not and accept the consequence of that
1:00:22
Speaker 1: outcome potentially. But the power dynamic completely shifts when you
1:00:30
Speaker 1: decide to take your power back, because if someone wants
1:00:34
Speaker 1: to be a good partner for you, they will be,
1:00:39
Speaker 1: but it is up to them to be a good partner.
1:00:41
Speaker 1: You cannot make them be a good partner. And this
1:00:46
Speaker 1: is almost like a crisis that couples walk into. And
1:00:50
Speaker 1: I would really advise you, if this is any of
1:00:54
Speaker 1: this is resonating for you, that you do this with
1:00:56
Speaker 1: a support of a marriage counselor to make sure that
1:01:00
Speaker 1: it is productive, but to walk through these stages together
1:01:06
Speaker 1: and reshift the power dynamics in a relationship. What often
1:01:11
Speaker 1: emerges is that both of you are doing the best
1:01:15
Speaker 1: you can. You are both lovely, well intentioned people. Many times,
1:01:20
Speaker 1: and this is particularly true for men that I've worked
1:01:23
Speaker 1: with in relationships who you know, we're occupying this space
1:01:28
Speaker 1: of kind of the belligerent teenager in their relationship and
1:01:32
Speaker 1: their wife was kind of turning into this angry mommy
1:01:34
Speaker 1: lady like because of these these power dynamics. And when
1:01:37
Speaker 1: we're able to shift this and get people sort of
1:01:40
Speaker 1: like pulled apart and functioning more independently, we can see that,
1:01:44
Speaker 1: you know, people like underfunctioning partners are often very nice
1:01:49
Speaker 1: people who love their partners very much and don't actually
1:01:54
Speaker 1: like the way that they had been functioning themselves, but
1:01:58
Speaker 1: didn't almost have the space to figure out how to
1:02:02
Speaker 1: make those changes on his own, because when we're focused
1:02:08
Speaker 1: on another person criticizing us. The natural reaction to that
1:02:13
Speaker 1: is to defend yourself and have all these reasons why
1:02:16
Speaker 1: it made sense. But in the absence of that, when
1:02:20
Speaker 1: somebody isn't criticizing you, then you have the emotional space
1:02:24
Speaker 1: to connect with you know, I don't actually feel good
1:02:29
Speaker 1: when I drink too much in the evening, or I
1:02:33
Speaker 1: don't feel good when I don't get enough sleep or exercise,
1:02:38
Speaker 1: or I don't feel good when the house is a mess.
1:02:41
Speaker 1: I don't like that. And so again we're moving away
1:02:45
Speaker 1: from codependence and back to independence where someone can say
1:02:51
Speaker 1: I like feeling like my partner is happy with me.
1:02:55
Speaker 1: I like how I feel when we get things done
1:02:58
Speaker 1: or when we can work together as a team. And
1:03:01
Speaker 1: so what happens is a shift back into intrinsic motivation
1:03:08
Speaker 1: on the partner who who had been getting getting harassed
1:03:13
Speaker 1: into changing previously. When the harassing stops, only then intrinsic
1:03:19
Speaker 1: motivation their desire to change and grown can emerge, and
1:03:27
Speaker 1: the other neat thing. So that's kind of like stage
1:03:31
Speaker 1: what are we at. Stage four of all of this
1:03:35
Speaker 1: is this space where people kind of separate from each other,
1:03:38
Speaker 1: not not literally separating although sometimes, but really more of
1:03:41
Speaker 1: that like emotional separating around I'm going to do me
1:03:45
Speaker 1: and you're going to do you, and let's see who
1:03:49
Speaker 1: we each are in the absence of this codependent power
1:03:53
Speaker 1: struggle that we had been engaging in previously. So when
1:04:01
Speaker 1: this happens and people begin focusing on themselves and what
1:04:06
Speaker 1: makes them feel happy and fulfilled, it can go a
1:04:09
Speaker 1: few different ways. The way that I always root for
1:04:14
Speaker 1: is what's really neat is that when people stop focusing
1:04:18
Speaker 1: on who and what their partner isn't and take responsibility
1:04:22
Speaker 1: for their own happiness and own well being, they can
1:04:26
Speaker 1: then reconnect with their partner as they are because at
1:04:34
Speaker 1: the end of the day, and I say this as
1:04:36
Speaker 1: someone who has been married now for a really long time,
1:04:42
Speaker 1: that I truly believe in my heart of hearts, and
1:04:45
Speaker 1: as a long married person also as a marriage counselor
1:04:48
Speaker 1: that true love and genuinely happy relationships certainly require both
1:04:55
Speaker 1: people trying, you know, and attempting to be their best
1:04:58
Speaker 1: selves and taking responsibilit for themselves and the way they're
1:05:01
Speaker 1: showing up. Certainly, and in addition to that, they require
1:05:06
Speaker 1: a high degree of acceptance and appreciation for who and
1:05:12
Speaker 1: what your partner is and how their gifts and their
1:05:18
Speaker 1: differences can enhance your life and the experience of your family.
1:05:25
Speaker 1: And it's a really interesting like emotional shift that occurs.
1:05:29
Speaker 1: When we work through codependence and help people become independent,
1:05:35
Speaker 1: then we can come back together into healthy interdependence where
1:05:41
Speaker 1: people are relying on each other for the things that
1:05:47
Speaker 1: each partner can give freely and that is appreciated and cherished. So,
1:05:54
Speaker 1: for example, many times in the classic codependent relationship where
1:06:01
Speaker 1: there's the you know, I mean, I hate to genderize again,
1:06:04
Speaker 1: but kind of angry, controlling wife and a sort of juvenile,
1:06:08
Speaker 1: underfunctioning husband, a lot of times what can really happen
1:06:12
Speaker 1: is that when people come into this place take responsibility
1:06:15
Speaker 1: for themselves, we can come back together again and appreciate
1:06:20
Speaker 1: the differences. So, for example, you know, perhaps in the
1:06:24
Speaker 1: classic example, the wife begins to realize that her partner
1:06:30
Speaker 1: is a lot of fun and that he's funny, and
1:06:33
Speaker 1: that he likes to do fun things, and it's a
1:06:37
Speaker 1: gift to her to have him in her life because,
1:06:41
Speaker 1: you know what, he is different from her, and he's
1:06:45
Speaker 1: the one who will pry the mop out of her
1:06:47
Speaker 1: hands on a Saturday morning and say let's go do
1:06:51
Speaker 1: something fun today. Put put down the mop, come on,
1:06:54
Speaker 1: let's let's go do X y Z right. And in contrast,
1:06:58
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, instead of feeling resentful about the
1:07:02
Speaker 1: you know air quote controlling partners, always making them do
1:07:05
Speaker 1: things that he doesn't want to do, being able to
1:07:07
Speaker 1: move into this space of appreciation for the gifts and
1:07:10
Speaker 1: talents and intelligence and planning and competence that many people
1:07:15
Speaker 1: who are often in the disempowered you know, place in
1:07:21
Speaker 1: a codependent relationship of the ones who have just the
1:07:24
Speaker 1: weight of the world on their shoulders. They're often naturally strong,
1:07:28
Speaker 1: competent and capable people and can do so many things,
1:07:33
Speaker 1: And a real shift occurs when when the partner who
1:07:38
Speaker 1: perhaps had viewed them as being aggressive or rejecting, can
1:07:42
Speaker 1: see them for the person they really are, which is
1:07:46
Speaker 1: someone who also needs support and understanding and a soft
1:07:51
Speaker 1: place to fall, because even though they are so strong
1:07:54
Speaker 1: and so competent and so smart, they also do need
1:07:58
Speaker 1: to rest and just be loved and cared for too,
1:08:01
Speaker 1: And it helps people kind of move towards each other
1:08:04
Speaker 1: and see each other through much more compassionate and forgiving
1:08:09
Speaker 1: and appreciative lenses. When that happens now. It is also
1:08:14
Speaker 1: sometimes true that when couples go through this whole process
1:08:19
Speaker 1: of exploration and growth, they may discover that they are
1:08:24
Speaker 1: intrinsically very very different from each other. Relationships are formed
1:08:30
Speaker 1: for all kinds of reasons, and as we have talked
1:08:32
Speaker 1: about at length on many podcasts, you know, the early
1:08:36
Speaker 1: stages of romantic love create a almost intoxicating kind of
1:08:41
Speaker 1: experience that can weld people together emotionally, people who may
1:08:46
Speaker 1: or may not be compatible in many ways or as
1:08:50
Speaker 1: easily compatible, I should say, And so then you can
1:08:54
Speaker 1: decide is who and what this person is and always
1:08:59
Speaker 1: will be. Can I be happy with who and what
1:09:04
Speaker 1: they are? Can I accept them as they are and
1:09:13
Speaker 1: have enough left here to be satisfied and fulfilled with
1:09:18
Speaker 1: what I can get out of this relationship? Or not?
1:09:22
Speaker 1: Or not? And that answer can always be a complex
1:09:27
Speaker 1: one to resolve, and can also, I think sometimes test
1:09:33
Speaker 1: our notions of what relationships should be. There is no
1:09:38
Speaker 1: one right way to have a relationship. I am actually
1:09:42
Speaker 1: not a huge believer in fundamental compatibility. I will absolutely
1:09:46
Speaker 1: agree that some combinations and pairings are easier than others.
1:09:52
Speaker 1: Couples who are further apart from each other in their
1:09:55
Speaker 1: basic needs and desires and value systems and the things
1:09:59
Speaker 1: that are important them will have more to work through
1:10:05
Speaker 1: and more challenges in order to be good partners for
1:10:09
Speaker 1: each other. They will have to be more accommodating and
1:10:12
Speaker 1: more flexible, and more compassionate and more generous and figure
1:10:17
Speaker 1: out a way to respect, not just respect, but help
1:10:26
Speaker 1: their partner create a life that is genuinely meaningful and
1:10:30
Speaker 1: satisfying to them. That both people will have to do that,
1:10:34
Speaker 1: and it will be a further, a further reach to
1:10:37
Speaker 1: find a bridge to the center. When there are bigger
1:10:40
Speaker 1: differences which sometimes at the root of a codependent dynamic,
1:10:45
Speaker 1: you will discover. And it is also true that every
1:10:50
Speaker 1: couple has differences that in the experience of a codependent
1:10:56
Speaker 1: dynamic become quite polarized, and people become more different because
1:11:02
Speaker 1: they are fighting about those differences than they actually are
1:11:05
Speaker 1: in reality. And that when we can move back into
1:11:09
Speaker 1: a space of healthy interdependence, many couples discover that they
1:11:13
Speaker 1: have a lot more in common and there are a
1:11:16
Speaker 1: lot more of a cooperative, collaborative, complementary couple then maybe
1:11:23
Speaker 1: they had known previously. So I hope that this discussion
1:11:29
Speaker 1: has helped you if you are one of the people
1:11:32
Speaker 1: that has reached out through Facebook or on the blog
1:11:35
Speaker 1: at growingself dot com or Instagram with a how do
1:11:39
Speaker 1: I get my partner to xyz type of question? This
1:11:44
Speaker 1: is why I didn't shoot back some kind of you know,
1:11:48
Speaker 1: two sentence answer is because there's not a two sentence solution.
1:11:53
Speaker 1: It's a process. And so that's why I wanted to
1:11:55
Speaker 1: make this podcast for you, is to kind of walk
1:11:58
Speaker 1: you through what that podcast or excuse me, so what
1:12:01
Speaker 1: that process is, so that you can develop just a
1:12:05
Speaker 1: clarity of understanding of what lies ahead and that there's
1:12:08
Speaker 1: no secret trick to getting your partner to do what
1:12:12
Speaker 1: you want them to if you can only you know,
1:12:15
Speaker 1: phrase it this way or you know, use this little trick.
1:12:18
Speaker 1: As with so many things related to relationships, it is
1:12:22
Speaker 1: a process of growth that is not for the faint hearted.
1:12:28
Speaker 1: It takes so much courage to do the kind of
1:12:31
Speaker 1: work that I'm describing to you. We have to walk
1:12:35
Speaker 1: into fear around what will happen if I let go
1:12:40
Speaker 1: of the control, or what will happen if my partner
1:12:46
Speaker 1: stops trying to make me xyz? Can I take responsibility?
1:12:54
Speaker 1: Who am I without someone else telling me what to do,
1:12:59
Speaker 1: what do I really want for my life? And how
1:13:03
Speaker 1: do I take responsibility for creating that? It is as
1:13:08
Speaker 1: frustrating as it is, it is much much safer emotionally
1:13:14
Speaker 1: to blame other people for our problems than it is
1:13:18
Speaker 1: to turn that back on ourselves and say, how did
1:13:22
Speaker 1: I get here? And what do I want? And what
1:13:24
Speaker 1: am I going to do to change it? And as
1:13:27
Speaker 1: scary as it is, that's the kind of conversation that
1:13:32
Speaker 1: will ultimately create change. It's a little bit of a
1:13:35
Speaker 1: trustful and again that's why getting the support of a
1:13:39
Speaker 1: really good therapist or relationship coach to help you almost
1:13:45
Speaker 1: like stay in that challenging, not scary place, but like
1:13:50
Speaker 1: to help you feel confident that this is the path
1:13:54
Speaker 1: forward can be really essential because many times when people
1:13:58
Speaker 1: get scared, they just sort of collapse back into doing
1:14:02
Speaker 1: what they know or trying to create change in a
1:14:04
Speaker 1: way that feels safer or that makes more sense logically.
1:14:09
Speaker 1: And you know, as we've discussed here today, the real
1:14:12
Speaker 1: path forward is not one of logic. It's one of
1:14:15
Speaker 1: emotion and deep understanding, both of yourself and your partner.
1:14:20
Speaker 1: So I hope that this conversation has been helpful to
1:14:23
Speaker 1: you and let me know. If there are other things
1:14:27
Speaker 1: you would like to hear about. You can get in
1:14:28
Speaker 1: touch with me growingself dot com. You could always leave
1:14:32
Speaker 1: a follow up question for me on this topic or
1:14:35
Speaker 1: any other through the post for this podcast, and also
1:14:39
Speaker 1: you can track me down on Facebook, Doctor Lisa Bobby
1:14:43
Speaker 1: on Facebook or at doctor Lisa Marie Bobby on Instagram.
1:14:48
Speaker 1: And I'll be back in touch next week with another
1:14:50
Speaker 1: episode of the Love, Happiness and Success podcast.
1:15:00
Speaker 2: The Bodle.
1:15:10
Speaker 1: Dog Won.
1:15:19
Speaker 2: Take coffent on Mike The Mind so
1:15:30
Speaker 1: Has no wrong, go right