Latest / Podcast Portwenn: Doc Martin & Best Medicine / Psychology Part 4 Doc Martin S8-10: Growth, Trauma, Healing
Transcript
- Chesla Wechsler: I'm delighted to have Lisa Verni return for the final installment of our Psychology of Portwenn series. This is Doc Martin specific episodes Podcast Portwenn. So if you're trying to watch Best Medicine without Doc Martin spoilers, you'll want to defer watching this. So Lisa, come through and welcome back to Podcast Portwenn. It's great to have you back. Thanks for doing all the work to like rewatch all of the episodes and... Lisa: Hi. I don't want to leave Portwenn Chesla Wechsler: I know, I hate it every time, know? ⁓ Lisa: We can go back and watch. That's the thing. Chesla Wechsler: That is true, but there's always just that wrap up, you know? And it's, still seek new things. I want this documentary of these actual people to continue. So eight through 10 are the of today. When we left season seven, that was when and Louisa had been through therapy and they had come to their, or at least Louisa had come to her epiphany moment of people are unusual and it's okay to be unusual. And Martin had professed that even though he tried not to love Louisa, he just couldn't stop. So that's where we leave things. When we go into season eight we can see that he's at least made changes. Lisa: Definitely. He is moving toward emotion. I just don't think he has experience with emotion. I mean, just when you just said that he loves loved her. Chesla Wechsler: Mm-hmm. Lisa: He's definitely more expressive in some ways than Louisa is. We're still gonna go down that path, I think, that she has a ways to go, but. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, yeah. of the things that I saw in eight, and I talked about this with Newbie who has since graduated, she's now a know-it-all, is that he ⁓ thanks people he compliments people, he tries to go to social events with Louisa, which he hadn't been doing before. And so those all seem to be positive changes he's making. He's even taking her to restaurants, like keeping up with the date idea. So he's trying. But I still see her, even though she acknowledges unusual is okay, she still doesn't want James to be like Martin. ⁓ Lisa: I Chesla Wechsler: It's sad. Lisa: And has a lot of insight. He's an excellent student, right, Martin? And originally starts wanting to make her happy because he does love her. You and I just watched the scene in season 10, which ⁓ I thought it put some into perspective, though. I didn't think of this before, but the fact that it was so frigid and cold. Chesla Wechsler: This is the scene where he's got hypothermia and he's in his car and Margaret shows up as a hallucination. Lisa: Yeah, and that the scene itself really reflects Margaret as so cold. I hadn't thought of it like that. that she, he has reason to not, know, even him saying shut up and be quiet. He had to develop that to just survive, right? To block her out. but there's no warmth whatsoever. And about to ⁓ die because of the hypothermia, but she deprived him of the nourishment and warmth that he needed. But the longing is there. We see it in the flashback, right, where he's looking for them. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, that's right. On Christmas morning, he's actually wants, even though he's gotten what one would think was pretty meager Christmas presents for somebody who seems to be the child of a doctor. And ⁓ no idea how the compensation is in England for doctors, but I believe Christopher Ellingham is in private practice. So one would think he was actually earning a higher salary than an NHS You can let me know that in the comments if you're into that. and wants to be excited. He wants to go downstairs and see mom and dad and no one's there. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And to go back to what you're saying about with James, know, back back throughout all these last Martin is with James ⁓ day to He's really taking fathering very seriously. And even Louisa is people be unusual. That's her ⁓ what's normal or unusual. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: All right. Lisa: through her eyes. that's not great. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: No, no. And even in eight, I do ⁓ there's a little bit of adjustment that they're still both doing with James because neither one of them seems to want to be that stay at home parent, right? I think still has that, the woman should stay home with the child mentality that he's had the whole time. which you can question or say is fine and normal, whatever, wherever you are on that scale. But one would think he's got the higher salary, so it would make sense. ⁓ she's more nurturing, so it would make sense. And the scene where Louisa's just trying to shovel yogurt into James while she's not even paying attention to him. Lisa: Well, there's many scenes like that, right? Where she's running out, Martin's picking up the slack, he's track of everything. So. Chesla Wechsler: Okay. Lisa: I really see him, you said at the beginning of this Podcast, he's really developing. He's becoming ⁓ of a human being and he's having the experience of being in a good family. ⁓ he's creating and you know, he's got Ruth there. ⁓ other thing I wanted to say that remember we first talked to the very first Podcast about ⁓ how said the village was going to be so significant in terms of their, them, development. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa: and then their relationship. We really see that in these end scenes. Everybody is, it's a cohesive community and they support each other and Martin supports them too. You know, there's many instances of this. I'm thinking right away of with Morwenna and walking her down the aisle, but he just takes it all very seriously and we can see why he is so devoted to people's care. Chesla Wechsler: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Lisa: And he couldn't, he learn how to express emotions. I don't think it's a fear of emotion. I don't think he learned how to, ⁓ or didn't want to express it the way his mother did, but he did funnel all that to being a doctor and could care about people that way, which is really a wonderful sublimation. Chesla Wechsler: And in some ways, you have to look at the fact he was ⁓ the surgeon, right? So the surgeon, generally has the poor reputation for interpersonal skills ⁓ in our country and I think in as well. And then he's forced into this GP thing, and you can see him grow through all 10 seasons. When he arrives in the village, he is... got a huge chip on his shoulder. He's angry at the whole situation that he finds himself in. And yet in season one, you see him trying to put together the marriage that he really didn't break up. Like right in episode one between Gilbert and Lady Brading it wasn't his fault that they, but he tries to put things back together. He tries to work with Al to. with Al and Bert to make sure their relationship is okay. And Al has the IT support job that he gives him even though he doesn't need it. So see him go from, I would say more caring at the beginning, almost through just his loss of humor rudeness stage where he's rude the whole time, but he just gets to be all rude and no humor for a while. And then in seasons eight through 10, I think we see more of a tenderness starting to come through with him. And Judy also thought that was the case as well. Lisa: also thinking how he back to Portwenn because he had there as a child and his aunt was there, right? ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yes. Lisa: And so trauma all the way through for him that he hasn't ⁓ out for quite a long time. Even through this whole series, there's ⁓ that could be uncovered. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. You were talking about how the village helps these two. One thing that I was looking at last night when I was trying to get ready for today was how much abandoning and abandonment there is across so many people in the village. And I had never thought of that till last night. I don't know if that occurred to you, but like and Bert, they lose Mary. I think her name is like his mother and Bert's wife. Lisa: How so? Chesla Wechsler: Poor Al has Elaine and Pauline leave him. Bert has Jennifer break up with him. Janice jilts Joe at the altar. Clive goes off to the rigs on Sally. Louisa obviously has her mother abandon her and her father off to jail. And Martin of course has no parental love at all and just emotional and physical abuse. I had never that before. And I wondered if that was... Lisa: Mm-hmm. Chesla Wechsler: intentional or if that's just how it all worked out. Morwenna, right? Morwenna's parents pick up and go off to be missionaries on her. Lisa: And then here in these seasons, she gets married, they don't make it. And she just always adjusts. I was really feeling for her. like her character so much. She stays so tender and regardless of all that, even though she has been abandoned. ⁓ Well. You know, that's a big piece of trauma that people don't often think about, that it's not just the abuse like we saw with Margaret in those scenes at the end, that the neglect. I remember a ⁓ mentor, psychiatrist telling me that ⁓ the of neglect is really so significant. And ⁓ it doesn't to be impoverishment, know, literal impoverishment, can be emotional. Also, the that it's this village where people to leave a way that there's this staying or leaving ⁓ and it's the away the is very different than in those communities, right? If they're in London or... ⁓ overseas in Europe they can go travel so kind of like once they're gone they're gone ⁓ feels like. Chesla Wechsler: Mmm. I say more about that, because the leaving thing, we Pauline, I think, is the first person who leapt to my mind when you said that was, I don't want to stay in Portwenn. She wants to get away and there's bigger things outside. I guess, Eleanor, now I think of it. So Eleanor is mom. So she goes off to Spain. Lisa: Spain Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, Spain. But there's, and I guess Danny Steele, Danny Steele is another one who like he goes off to London and he comes back and it's, you definitely get a sense from him and from Martin when he first arrives, right? And Edith, this is this podunk village in the middle of nowhere. there is ⁓ that element of it could be better somewhere else. And yet a lot of people do stay. And comes in, right? Ruth settles in. Lisa: Yeah, and again, I always think of the Wizard of Oz as the ultimate coming of age story. There's no place like home, right? So there is that conflict. I I think even when you're saying about Louisa saying to Martin that James is going to become like him, and I was thinking about this the last few days of the On one hand, to be exceptional. And on the other hand, wanting your child to fit in. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Lisa: And it sort of parallels what we're talking about, right? That there can be this community and all the value of community, then the of it to go seek something bigger, even that there is a class differential, I think, that goes on with the education and the travel. But I that and Martin ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yes. Mm-hmm. Lisa: blending all of this. They're creating their own version themselves their family. ⁓ I Ruth is a wonderful ⁓ part it all. ⁓ I her. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. I don't know where Martin would be without Ruth. She's sort of his touchstone in a way, isn't she? Lisa: And he had Aunt Joan, two ⁓ aunts. Chesla Wechsler: They give him very different messages though, right? So Aunt Joan is like, you're chalk and cheese, you two will never have a future. And Ruth is like, ⁓ you have to work harder. That's her message. Lisa: Well, Aunt Joan is of the community more and Ruth has these other experiences, of therapy and seeing other possibilities. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, it was interesting when Martin goes to see, I guess this was season 10, episode eight. He goes back to Jones farm where Arthur Collins is now living. And Arthur is pointing out how Martin doesn't think of himself as a local despite the fact that he spent summers there, to come back there, is raising his family there. Martin an interesting comment and I don't know the purpose of it. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Chesla Wechsler: but he says, I won't be back. It's very definitive and yet not long after that, he gets his torn brachial artery decides to stay. Do you, where do think that I won't be back fits in? Lisa: wasn't sure if he meant the village or there. Chesla Wechsler: thought it was Portwenn. Maybe I was wrong in thinking that. Arthur was talking about, being, because Arthur had moved in from London. So he was viewing himself as, look at me, ⁓ I'm now to get rid of the craziness of London and coming here, and you're going back to the craziness of London. ⁓ And I thought Martin was like, done with Portwenn. Lisa: Hey. Yeah, it didn't exactly fit where he at this stage. ⁓ thinking also about the, that's the scene the episode where we see the growth chart, right? Chesla Wechsler: It didn't, I thought. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And he has the immediate, and that's, I think, furthering that animotophobia idea of that's not blood. That's the coming back of a memory of a happy time, one would think, right? Because that's when he stayed with Aunt Joan and he was, it was, yes. Lisa: great but it's painful. But it's painful. Right, because he had that that was a very big trauma, him Aunt like we almost think more of ⁓ that loss his parents even that he had love. He had connection and then it was taken away. And who knows what his parents said about it besides, right, that the the rejection of or rejection of that life. So ⁓ I guess I've worked so much with trauma that Chesla Wechsler: Mm-hmm. Lisa: the inhibition of the emotion is more, we could call it fear. I mean, I've never even heard of this term, you know, ⁓ But ⁓ fear of the love, the love that's gonna cause pain, if he remembers that. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, I don't think it's a real thing. I think it's sort of theoretical. Lisa: But that's why I always think he had it, so therefore it's a matter of peeling it away, peeling the defenses and the trauma away, and that will remain. It's not like someone who never had any. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Lisa: any love. Chesla Wechsler: Right, right. had a little eye opener and ⁓ I when I have eye openers that should kind of be obvious. And I would say that I always knew this, but this was just a nice way of hearing it stated. was basically at church in the sermon this week, the priest said, love always has a cost. And it was... Like, yes, and the first thing that came to my mind was I love dogs, right? Martin loves dogs, Martin Ellingham, not so much, right? Although you see him progress a little bit, we could get back to that, but just ⁓ the love a dog and you know you're gonna love this dog for its whole life and you are gonna be crushed at the end. And... That was to me like the most obvious love has a cost was that because it's just the love of a dog is so incredibly pure. they, never, there's never a bad word spoken between you, right? And that could be Martin, like with Joan, that love had a cost. ⁓ He sees that growth and what does it bring back is all of those happy memories, not only gone, Lisa: Selfless. Chesla Wechsler: but now he is leaving the environment where they occurred. Lisa: It's not surprising that he would, like if he were my client and he was relaying this to me, I would think they're related. I would think that his, in fact, this might be the explanation that the memories started to emerge, the feelings started to emerge with the growth chart and being there. And the defense had to come up as I'm leaving. Chesla Wechsler: Maybe. Yeah. Lisa: you know, shut that down, shut up. He's actually saying it to himself. Be quiet. Chesla Wechsler: I'll have to watch that scene again to see the order of things. Because I can't recall whether he made that statement before he saw the growth chart or after. But that'll be fun. It's always fun to go back and watch a scene. Lisa: Yeah, and it may not, I I doubt that they thought about all of this, but I'm just saying uncovering and healing, those two would go together. More intense love would have the more intense ⁓ Also, going back to the dogs, it's likely that he could have had a dog that was taken away from him. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Could be. Lisa: You know, I mean, we see that he doesn't like dogs, one of the ways that people, I don't know if you and I discussed this, one of the ways that children deal with or neglect is identify, we call it identifying with the aggressor. And so they become the version of their their parent. Because it's more powerful. Chesla Wechsler: Mmm. Lisa: and they're more aligned with the parent. That's when you see a child grow up and treat other people the way they were treated. There's repression in that also. They don't want to remember their pain. I know I've said this to you before, they can't have empathy until they feel their own pain. Chesla Wechsler: I think there's... Okay. Right. Yeah. Lisa: So some of the things that he does, he was likely treated that way. I even how Margaret is in that scene to him, so cold and abrupt. mean, she's just so cruel in there. There's just no love at all there. It's, yeah, sadistic. Chesla Wechsler: So cruel. Cause there's malevolence. Yeah. I mean, just even when he is describing the fact that his organs will shut down, she's the one who's like, you'll die. And then how long do you have, you know. ⁓ Lisa: And you asked me if it's a projection. So that's there too, right? Because if you reverse it, he isn't upset that she died on one level. It's all the things. Did he, if he was in deep therapy, he would get to the point of grieving that he didn't have a mother or remembering positive things if there were any, but he also would have to feel all that aggression And so there's ⁓ relief in that. very complicated, the unconscious, there's no timeline. ⁓ Who is, ⁓ who is changing. ⁓ So ⁓ it's of of the theme, the theme of the ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lisa: and kind of what comes out of it and that he's determined to survive. And he doesn't accept what she says about, know, what his unconscious is saying about his worry about James. He doesn't accept that. Chesla Wechsler: Mm-hmm. Yeah. True, which is good, yeah. But I was thinking that he might be projecting his concern about losing James and it's coming out just in this hallucination. And I like the fact that he, no, I'm not, right? Like I'm, yeah. And it's really that I am not my parent. James will not be like me and I will not be my parents or my father, which is a recurrent theme. Lisa: And he's not, in real life, not. And he already had made a decision over and over to stay put there, right? To be this, ⁓ know, one little surgery where you were in, they're all living there. There's a lot of life. I mean, it's really quite lovely, right? People are coming in and out and ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lisa: Seems like he's tolerating it sometimes, but he's in this very warm environment. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, true. And if you look back across all 10 seasons, you see in episode one, he's leaving. But Bert basically talks him into, Bert with a combination of the fact that Louisa would like him to stay, right? he's always, she's gluing him to that area all the time. And then he's gonna leave again when Louisa's not in Portwenn anymore, after she leaves after the wedding that wasn't, but then he stays. even though he could go back with Edith, Then the baby's born and he stays. Then they're leaving again ⁓ and he's the brachial artery thing and he stays. So yeah, he made a lot of choices to stay. I always felt like when he chose to stay at the end of season 10, the fact that he was choosing it was the, it wasn't a choice made for him. He was choosing it. That was pivotal. Lisa: Well, we could say, that that is the healing of the trauma, ⁓ his childhood trauma. It's not just the present well-being health of him and his family, ⁓ but he is now than his parents, he has this cohesive life, community, family. Chesla Wechsler: Mm. Okay. Lisa: and they're all together and they're not going anywhere. Chesla Wechsler: And he almost lost them. Like it was almost taken away from him when he almost bled out. And now he wants to keep that. So his father didn't want to keep him. His mother didn't want to keep him, but he wants to keep his family. And then the Last Christmas in Portwenn, I think, was just a nice little icing on the cake from the standpoint of it's a steady state relationship now. Like she's not trying to leave. He's not trying to leave. Lisa: Yeah. you Great. Chesla Wechsler: dedicated to each other. They've got these kids. And he's the same, same guy. Lisa: Anything? Yeah, and it doesn't he at the end, isn't like the last scene where he says, I love you. He says it right out to her and she comes around and hugs him too. Chesla Wechsler: Yes. Yeah, a lot of that, that episode tidied up a lot of things. Because Joe and Janice are getting married and Marwena and Al are gonna have the baby. Lisa: Yes, it did. Yeah, let's talk about some of them. So Mrs. Tishell. Chesla Wechsler: Yes, we haven't talked about Sally. She goes through a lot in seasons eight through ten. Lisa: She really does. And I love that they had her them so much. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Yeah, well, doesn't she have a date? Well, first of all, she loses Clive. Lisa: Every time. Yeah, and that's a really good example of repression right there and denial, right? That she just cuts off then grief can be so strange, how manifests and she's talking to him. And yeah, the relationship with Ruth and Sally and Ruth tending to her is really... I think, even though they're not in a consultation room. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Ruth is trying to give her advice and I thought it was funny when I guess she must have offered at one point if Sally needed to talk and then Sally comes to find out how she should dress for a date. Like I really didn't mean this. Lisa: Right. That was great too. Well, there were so many parts of it. Do you have any questions ⁓ me about that? Chesla Wechsler: What about Mrs. Tishell? with Mrs. Tishell, I had in my head that she never stops loving Martin, right? She has a crush on him to the end, even to point she's kissed him. And then when she apologizes for him, she's, but. ⁓ But perhaps not, perhaps you would want to elope and we could be, like, and she has a shrine, right? She still has a shrine to him. So she never really gets over that. I mean, is this harmless or is this like a worry? Lisa: It's certainly not harmless. you know, it causes a lot of trouble. But in the end, remember the last scene, she takes off the collar with Ruth. Chesla Wechsler: collar. Lisa: And she's finished. She's finished with the crush too, I think. Yeah. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. That's the implication. I could see her going back to Ruth and saying, I left that lovely pin on my collar. Can I just get that back? Lisa: Like, was she really going to leave that that necklace, ⁓ that neck brace? she is his biggest and a team ⁓ and she's integral to the community. And when up on the van, you know, protesting Martin, Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. she is. And I love how Joe and she are almost a team in that. Like he wants to get her off the van, but then like let her get back up. And the two of them at one point seemed to almost be like trying to figure out, well, tag teaming, but Joe knows there's really nothing they can do to keep Martin there. But he is at least trying to commiserate a bit with Sally. Lisa: Great. tech teaming, yep. ⁓ Yeah. it in ⁓ seasons where Sally goes and runs the office also? Or makes a mess of the office? Chesla Wechsler: It have been. I don't remember. It might very well have been. I don't recall offhand, yeah, she's like trying to reorganize it in the two hours that she's sitting in and everything is everywhere. Lisa: Well, know, everybody has their role to play. these roles a community and yes, Mrs. Tishell might be as Louisa would say in her but she's steadfast and she toes the line in of not people get drugs ⁓ for nothing. And ⁓ she's available ⁓ a moment's notice for crisis. she, are scenes where she goes on the up into the lighthouse, though, right? ⁓ It's really, really, really. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Right? Yes. She does that, yep, yep. She staples her hand to keep Martin there to get him to wanna become a doctor again, right? Lisa: Right. Right. So she's, yeah, she's someone you might see in an outpatient psychiatric unit. Chesla Wechsler: Well, I'm thinking she's committed and perhaps she should be committed. Yes, I mean she eats Professor Langan's car keys to try to... always looked at the people who were really the ⁓ for Martin were her, Joan, and Louisa. And Ruth, of course, Ruth even is in those later seasons that she's in when the... Lisa: Yeah, but she's functioning. She's making her way. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Chesla Wechsler: observing doctors there. Ruth is trying to intervene and saying he is a marvelous doctor. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Chesla Wechsler: And he really is. Lisa: Well, and we should talk about that a little bit too because he him a long time to... come around Martin to think, mean, he never, it's not like he ever really does apologize. He sticks to his guns, but he's out of work for a long time. What? Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, yeah, it just made me laugh when Joe tells him, and I always just say, tell him it's a learning experience. And Martin actually says, plus it was a learning experience. And that seemed to be the thing that ⁓ the difference with Professor Langan was you seem to have learned from this. Like, ⁓ BS comment. Lisa: Right. Hey. Right. But he didn't, you know, he wasn't rewarded for having humility and it wasn't modeled for him. So that takes a long time too. And that's not, I don't think that's something that's ever going to be for him to do. ⁓ Well. Chesla Wechsler: No. No. Would you say that he's arrogant or confident? Lisa: I think he's... Chesla Wechsler: At the end, I think when he comes in, he's arrogant and angry, right? At the end, I don't think of him as, he's rude. He'll always be rude. Like this man will never learn social skills. It's just too late. He might get a little better or pretend, but it's never gonna be natural. Lisa: I Yeah. Right. Yeah. And he has such a role, so, being in charge as the doctor. And he's not just the doctor, he's the public health servant too. So he's always on watching what's going on all over the place. Yeah, I know if there's excuse. Chesla Wechsler: I wonder if that's actually a function that a GP in England serves or if that's just an artifact of the show. Lisa: Yeah, I don't know either. So he's never really out of that role. So he ⁓ does have the authority to tell people what to do and to instruct. And I know. I don't see him ⁓ as Now Joe, Joe Penhale. That's where I think Martin, I don't like how Martin is Joe. That's where I feel he's, I admire that. Because he really doesn't give him a bone ever. Chesla Wechsler: One bone. Lisa: Tell me. Chesla Wechsler: When Joe brings the inappropriate cuckoo clock to Martin as a gift to replace all those old knackered clocks, Martin accepts it kindly and even calls him Joe and says, thank you, Joe. So I think he was touched by that. Lisa: ⁓ yes. Yes. Yeah, that's a big improvement. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, yeah. But Penhale, you know, he's so inept. know, for somebody who's as competent as Martin and somebody who's so inept as Joe, and in a way, Joe's the one who's always calling them the dynamic duo. And Martin wants nothing to do with that, but from a village sense, at least for a plot of a TV show, you figure the law enforcement guy and the medical guy are something of a team. Lisa: Well, they're both also, they both don't have very good social skills. But Penhale has a different of poor social skills. Where doesn't read cues accurately, he doesn't adapt, he also knows he's, he kind of he's not so adept. No, you think Chesla Wechsler: don't, I when he changed, Maggie, his like divorced him, because she said that he'd changed after he'd been kicked in the head. That he was moody. Yeah, he was moody and forgetful and moody. yeah, but I don't, I guess. Lisa: forgetting that. ⁓ I'm completely forgetting that. Yeah. Chesla Wechsler: trying to think, like how would I characterize Joe? I wouldn't, and this is just me, the non-psychological professional here, that he's just an awkward guy. I I wouldn't say that there's anything going on with him. Would you, I mean... Lisa: He doesn't read the room very well. Chesla Wechsler: No, he doesn't. Lisa: That's what I mean. And yet, he also knows he doesn't. Chesla Wechsler: Does he? Lisa: I think so. Like, you know, he's just always messing up and sort of Chesla Wechsler: He knows he has no friends and I think that bothers him, but then he ends up with friends because he's got Janice and Al and Morwenna. So he ends up with some friends. But ⁓ I'll never forget, these who watch these videos are probably tired to hearing these, but there's just a great exchange between Joe and Ruth where he's like, he doesn't really have friends. He's got Al and Martin and they're well, and Ruth says, 'imaginary?' ⁓ Lisa: Yeah. Right, I remember, I looked at your note with that and I cracked up because... Chesla Wechsler: you Joe's like 'busy'. Lisa: You wrote that out in your notes. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, and it's, still remember, like, I've got it memorized at this point. Lisa: I mean, they were just great lines, didn't they? Chesla Wechsler: The writers of the show were phenomenal. Yeah. They're, yeah. I hope they're on to good things because any show that gets those writers is in good shape. Lisa: Yeah. Chesla Wechsler: if we look at the whole season now, if we've talked about seasons eight, ⁓ all the seasons of on their own, but if we look at the whole series, to what extent do you think Louisa and Martin have grown as people? Lisa: ⁓ so much. Also... I think time together helps too. They've gone through a lot of things together. parented, they've worked, they've gone through all these crazies. So you hope that that builds mutual and understanding. Chesla Wechsler: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I think Louisa is softened. Chesla Wechsler: Okay, I was going to ask specifically what you saw in Louise's as a Lisa: I think she's softened. She's also right? She's a busy mom. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yes. Lisa: wrote too about the dog, she's the alpha to the dog. And made note about that because ⁓ in some that was their right? Who was going to be alpha in the relationship? Chesla Wechsler: Interesting, yeah. Lisa: You know, they were both alphas in their lives. how they were going to be team take turns with that. And I think you really do see that. Chesla Wechsler: Do you think that they come to a point where they're a team or do, because I see maybe she's still more the alpha even in the relationship at this point. Lisa: I think it's... I made a note about this too and I hesitate when I ascribing gender to roles ⁓ but... I think they're more comfortable in their own Don't Louisa has also gone through so much ⁓ abandonment and she's used to being taken care of either, even though she loves it, recoils from at the same time. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yes. And she does not want to be dependent because she's gotten burned every time somebody who was in charge just left her. And her father does it again. I mean, in season 10, her father once again is lying to her and, yeah. Lisa: Praise. Yep. Totally. And that's probably very pivotal too, because Martin really... protects her really the and the man there at the end, when he sets him straight, you know, them in. So I think they're doing well. The prognosis is good. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, they are, I yes, yeah. I think they are doing well. I mean, you get a smile out of Martin when he gets handed James, from the, he gets out of the sleigh, right? Leonard Maitland sleigh. Lisa: You look great Didn't Martin look great in that scene? Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Yep. He looked very happy and we don't get to see that much. Lisa: No. think I said this early on too, when would say when couples come ⁓ and can whether a is ⁓ fighting to be or frustrated because the isn't And so, ⁓ you know, there that period time with Louisa where she wanted to assign everything to Martin. ⁓ And, ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Mm-hmm. Lisa: That was kind of tricky and he really hung in there with allowing that to happen. He didn't do the same to her. He didn't say, you're at fault. You're at fault. That would have been the kind of couple where that would be hard to break through because if neither party is willing to look at themselves, how do you make progress? ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Right. Yeah. I didn't think that Martin ever felt that she was at fault for anything. I always thought that he thought it was all him. Lisa: right? Which allowed him to do some work. So like, you know, if you're doing it, this is the before me, and they're only doing that, saying it's the other person. It's hard to go anywhere with that. There's no conflict within Martin had a conflict within himself. He had ⁓ reason to work on Chesla Wechsler: Yes. Right. Yes, yes. And because the goal that he wanted was to stay with Louisa and to make Louisa happy. So he had an other centric goal and he blamed it all on himself. So to me, he seemed like he was in the perfect spot for being willing to work. Whereas Louisa was not necessarily in that spot, at least at the beginning. I'm not sure personally, was she ever. Lisa: So. way. Right. Well, and Chesla Wechsler: To me at the end of seven when she says like, you're unusual and it's okay, to me I thought that was her thing, that was her moment. But I didn't see a lot of follow through after that. Lisa: No, that allowed her assigning him as the problem, right? So that was a pivot there that gave some room, some potential for them. And there were things going on with her. I know we talked about, I don't remember what it was, that allowed her to do that. She had made some growth. And don't forget, Ruth was very important as the not-in-the-room therapist with them. Chesla Wechsler: Okay. Lisa: So Ruth was working on Louisa Martin was working. But you have someone come in like Martin who is very unhappy and ⁓ has a lot to lose and he's very determined and he's an excellent student, right? And ⁓ intellect can get him far in terms of at least understanding the work he had to do. And then ⁓ she happier. I the life is happier. She gets the life that she wants. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yeah Mm-hmm. Lisa: and he's very supportive of her. Chesla Wechsler: Yeah, yeah. And I loved at the end in season 10, the regular season, not the Christmas episode, when they are both willing to do what the other person wants. So she's willing to leave the village for this dream job for him. He's willing to stay in the village because it's something that he knows is important to her. And that's big. Lisa: That's excellent. That's actually an excellent way to end Chesla because what you hope will happen eventually. ⁓ Not that they have to forfeit what they're doing, but that they could see the other ⁓ point of view. ⁓ Chesla Wechsler: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, What a great television series. I recently posted on some social saying, pushing the Podcast of course, where somebody looking for a Podcast that for like 'over 50' people or something like that. And I just said, well, if you're not looking for anything too weighty, we've got a great Podcast where we're... diving into incredible detail in something that really doesn't warrant it whatsoever because it's just a television show. And yet what a great TV show to not only inspire doing podcasts and fan fiction and all the fan stuff, people traveling to Port Isaac for the filming. Just there we are. Lisa: it. Chesla Wechsler: I love talking to you about this stuff. I am so grateful that you put in, it's work, folks, who are watching this, it's work. mean, Lisa has already watched the series as a viewer, enjoyed it, and then for me, for us, for our viewing audience here, she goes back, she rewatches everything, but she watches it with her psychotherapist counseling hat rather than just her fan hat. And with a lot of stuff going on, I really, I really appreciate this, thank you. Lisa: Well, thank you. I count on you for all the details though because I don't such a good ⁓ for ⁓ the ins and outs but more the general ⁓ themes. Chesla Wechsler: And that's what we're discussing here. mean, yes, you can count it. I know way too many details. But again, thank you very much folks. If you've enjoyed this show, I hope that you will like it. Like the episode, you'll subscribe to the show. I love to hear your comments on it. I always reply. If there's anything in here that you thought was inaccurate or you have more questions about, drop them in. I can even try and see if Lisa might be willing to give me some answers. So Lisa, thanks again. I really appreciate it. Lisa: you You're welcome.