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Where Is Our Empathy? with Leann R. Johnson · The Trauma Therapist

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Trauma Therapist Podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
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now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma
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Thepist podcast and signing up today or welcome back to the Trauma Theapist Podcast.
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My name is Gamiferson. My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible
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selves, to be human, to be real, not just a clinician.
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I'm a big believer in who we are is more important than what we know,
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and this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires
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intention. Can learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma
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Therapist Project dot com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get
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started. So five or three, two and one, our folks, welcome
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back to the podcast. I'm very excited to have as my guest to day,
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Leanne Johnson. Leanne welcome, Thank you, Thank you guys, it's
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great to be here. Appreciate awesome. So. Leanne is an industrial organizational
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psychology practitioner and systems therapist. She has the thirty years of experience as an
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equity and inclusion professional, having worked in nonprofit higher education, private and public
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sectors. She's a professional storyteller and an actor in comedic and dramatic impropositional theater
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in Portland, Oregon. She co created Black Women White Women, an evolving
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experimental work featured in twenty twenty two by the National Conference on Race and Ethnicity.
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Leanne Welcome, Thank you guys. So you're in Portland now? I?
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Yes, I actually, well, I'm in Vancouver, Washington, which
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is across from Portland, and I work out of Portland. I do my
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job, and my acting work and storytelling work is out of Portland, Oregon.
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Yes, okay, because and bend and I forget that. Yeah,
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right right right down right through the mountain passes there. Yes, where are
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you from? Originally? I am originally from Portland, Oregon. Oh.
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Cool, in Portland until I was ten, and then family uprooted and went
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across the Columbia River to Vancouver, Washington, where I've lived ever since.
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Awesome, so really interesting bio. How did this start for you? How
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did this interest in organizational psychology common health take us? There? Okay?
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Well that it's a roundabout pathway. And when I came out of university,
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I was actually a communications management major and then I got involved with social justice
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work as a volunteer. From there, I sort of fell into if you
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will we now call DEI Diversity Equity and Inclusion or DEI B Diversity Equity,
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inclusion belonging. Kind of fell into that work and then ended up ultimately in
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a position with a Institute of higher education, and I needed to figure out
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what the heck is going on with these people here, and and it was
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suggested to me that I get a master's degree in psychology, which I continue,
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which I did pursue, and in that once again fell into this incredible
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specialization of industrial organizational psychology. So that's that's a short cut version of a
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roundabout way of my life. And I have been grateful ever since to have
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that that academic grounding in the field which I applied daily to diversity, equity
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and inclusion and belonging work. And what capacity are you working now? So
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currently I have been with a state agency in the state of Oregon for that
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was redundant for thirteen years as the director of Equity and Inclusion for the Oregon
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Health Authority. Okay, and what does that look like on it? What
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do you do specifically right right? Well, our focus is really around deep
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policy change. We are working specifically to eliminate health and equities in the health
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system in the State of Oregon. And so our work that we do in
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our division on behalf of the organ Health Authority, on behalf of the State
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of Oregon, and most importantly, on behalf of the people of the State
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of Oregon. Our work is really to transform the delivery system through policy so
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that we end practice and integrating equity and inclusion practice into the field so that
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every person in the State of Oregon has their best chance for their best help
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and health and equities exist because of five hundred and thirty plus years of inequities
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on these lands, colonization, genocide, oppression that has been built into the
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system. And that's the sets that's the downside of the store of the upside
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is that we have been as people of color color identify as a black woman,
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have been so resilient that we have continued to not only survive but also
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thrive in these circumstances. So back to your original question, we are working
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to create policy and practice in the State of Oregon that will help people reach
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their greatest health that might be through a healthcare interpreter program that we manage where
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healthcare interpreters. We're ensuring that people get their health information in their primary language,
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traditional health workers, building a bridge between culture and community and the clinical
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experience. So functions such as that that we and we have thirty three I
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can give you thirty thirty other examples of some specifics around that. I'm hoping
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that I've given a bit of a flavor. So so that answers your question,
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I'm happy to dive deeper if we have additional questions. Yeah, I
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would like to dive deeper. But before we get there, what about this
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topic so excites you and gets you about equity increasing specifically about about okay,
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yes, yes, well, social justice seems to be in my blood.
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My grandmother was the president of the NAACP in her small hometown of Kilcook,
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Iowa. So somewhere this is in my being and my blood. And I
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think also to historically further back the fact that my great grandfather on my mother's
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side, was the first person in her family to be born above the Mason
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Dixon line in Freedom, brought over his father was brought over by his father,
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so brought over, brought north. So there's that piece, and there's
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a sense of that somebody somewhere, or multiple people somewhere in history had to
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survive the most horrific circumstances in the hull of a ship. Somehow they made
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it. Somehow, As each generation unfolded, we continued not just to survive,
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but thrive. And so there's that legacy that excites me to carry that
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on. There is the indication that we as a nation and as a world,
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could do so much better around how we treat each other and how we
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humanize each other. And there are so many examples and so many conditions of
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dehumanization in our world that we've got to somehow flip not just the narrative but
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the actions around that. I think ultimately I want to regard and honor the
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past, make things better for the future, and all of that in the
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name of I know we can do better as human beings. I just know
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we can. And there's a sense of well that seems pretty idealistic, and
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it's like, well, maybe it is, but if we try, we
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have a chance. If we don't try, we have no chance to get
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there. So I err on the side of the honest attempt. Well,
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that's super inspiring, and I really appreciate that, and I agree with everything
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you're saying. I'm a big proponent of uh, you know, starting small
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in a sense with the person in front of us, and that that makes
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such a difference. And you know, I can sit here and think of
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a lot of inequities, especially around the health topic of health. But let's
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let's give us, give us some examples. Let's get specific for our listeners
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here who might be wondering. You know, maybe some people are saying,
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what what what? What are you talking about? What inequities? Why?
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Health? The jurch is behind right right. Well, that's it. And
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if you're asking me to repeat and recite data, I want you to know
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I will not be able to recite specific numbers. That's not my fortune.
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What I can say is that there are data that show that indicate, both
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in the state by state and nationwide, that people of color, people from
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tribal communities have poor health outcomes to the point where our lives are shortened.
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We have data that say, generally speaking, our lives are shorter than that
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let's say white people because of health inequities. Now some people, and that's
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one of just many, many data points and we always have to remember that
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these data are about people. There's a person attached to a number people and
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communities attached to those numbers. So where we land in all of that is
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that those inequities, pardon me, those inequities are not necessarily because of someone's
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individual actions. Okay, They these inequities relate to again, centuries upon centuries
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of colonization, genocide, dehumanization of people's and so to say that this is
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about well, you better eat an apple instead of a Snicker's candy bar,
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well, certainly we have our own agency around our health. Yes, and
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there's a broader context that is impacting health and bringing greater harm to certain populations
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of people because of this legacy of racism and oppression. And so we take
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this work way upstream to address the historical and contemporary injustices that are still in
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existence in our nation on these lands with that historical legacy of five hundred and
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thirty plus years. Of course, how do you how do you tackle that?
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How do you address that? Does it? What does that mean?
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You take it upstream? Yes? Well, basically I think of the work
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of doctor David Williams and doctor Kamara Jones in particular Harvard. Harvard researchers and
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their work indicates that like for example, even when you control for things like
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income, education, which are considered what are called social determinants of health,
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criminal justice system, transportation, even when you control in those areas, when
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you add race to the equation, the inequities still exists. So this is
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not a poverty issue. It is not an ignorance issue, as some people
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want to express it that way. It's none of those things. It is
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the fact that in this day and age, even if a person has access
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to health insurance or access to a clinician, they may still experience bias,
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bigotry, racism in the clinical experience. So it's not just about access.
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Insurance and access are part of the equation, but it's about what then happens
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after that. And it's also about the toxic stress that impacts our health on
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a daily basis, connection between mind and body. And for example, there
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is another data point that says people who give birth black people who give birth,
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and this is poignant and I'm going to give an activation warning. Black
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people who give birth are more likely to lose that infant in the first year
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than white people who give birth once again, when you control for all of
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the other factors, that still occurs. That still occurs. So babies of
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color are dying at a higher rate, not based upon the actions of the
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mother, but based upon predominantly the conditions of society and perhaps even the actions
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of the clinician. I will give you an example, if you'd like your
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personal example of how this plays out. Would that be helpful? Worse?
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Yeah? Yes, so thirty two years ago, and I will say this
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was thirty few years ago, and this still happens today because there are stories
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that will reinforce the stories of Serena Williams, Alison Felix too, world class
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athletes who had very poor birthing experiences. So I was in extreme pain,
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because childbirth is extremely painful, and I had the feeling that I was in
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what is called active labor. I felt like the need to push, and
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I was told over and over again by the healthcare professionals in the room,
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oh honey, if you think this is hard, just wait when you get
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to active labor. That was their attitude towards me. They did not listen
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to me after And then there was one clinician that came in took one look
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at me and said did a check and said, you're in active labor.
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I said, yes, I've never given birth before, but this doesn't seem
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this seems like we're at critical time here. And so there was that.
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And then after I gave birth, the color trained from my face. I
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was passing out. I was not feeling my I was feeling nauseous. I
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was feeling like my core was just going to just explode through this nauseous feeling.
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And I kept saying, something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong.
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But once again the general feeling was, oh, honey, you just escape
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birth. It's a hard thing. Again. One clinician out of a roomful
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clinicians walked in, took one look at me and knew something was wrong.
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And through an intervention which I will not give the gory details around, and
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I had a post part of hemorrhage that went unrecognized for I cannot tell you
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how long, but for quite some time, to the point where the intervention
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was pretty graphic and radical, I'll just say that. And so that story
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and those stories that get repeated that have that still occur, our stories around
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our dehumanization now does it. First of all, thank you for sharing that
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personal story. And I excuse my ignorance here, but is are we talking
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about white clinicians solely, not necessarily not, We're talking about a system.
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We're talking about a system that primarily moves and operates from a patriarchal us against
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them hoped down way. I think that's a great way to put it.
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I think that's a great way to put it. And it is if you,
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as an individual, as a clinician, went through or as any individual
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in this country quite frankly that was born here and here or here during their
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formative years, we are bombarded with messaging in our classrooms, in our workplaces
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related to that either explicitly or implicitly dehumanized and so the entire system has been
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built around I will just say it, white supremacy. And it is absolutely
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possible that anyone who is in that system, regardless of very ethnic background,
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could also get conditioned in that way, right right, Leanne. This is
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I mean, it's it's really hard to hear. And no, there's no
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way I can put myself in the position of someone who's gone through this,
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but it, Oh the hell do you tackle this problem? Yeah, it
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seems gargantuan mm hmm. It is gargantuine. And I believe earlier you mentioned,
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you know, one person at a time, the person in front of
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you, the situation in front of you, that we can we can only
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influence that which is immediately around us. We each have different ranges of our
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sphere of influence. So the more people working toward and I will just say
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it, the elimination of racism and oppression, that's really the bottom line.
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More people that are working toward that, we have a broader sphere of influence,
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and those start to intersect, and then we're working in concert with each
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other to make a difference. So it's it is a long term issue problem
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that requires absolutely long term solutions and changes. And we must remember, especially
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when we talk about systems, systems are people and people are systems. So
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there's structural racism and oppression built into the system. But who built those systems
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and who is continue to perpetuate those systems people? So it's a twofold and
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everything in between. Attack on on on sism and an attack on oppression.
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We need to attack it and change it and do it within every every realm
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that we can, and remembering that it begins absolutely begins with our own personal
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reflection. I reflect every day related to the privilege I have and related to
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the oppression that has come my way as well. And I cannot separate myself
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from a system that has conditioned me as well. There are times when I
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think, my goodness, where did that come from? Why? You know,
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why was I thinking that? And it's that conditioning of the system.
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And so I, as an individual need to be honest with myself. Each
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of us need to be honest with ourselves and begin to reflect on attitudes and
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behaviors and change behaviors. And that's all we can really do. We cannot,
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let me tell you this. For example, in workplace, we can
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only address behaviors. We can't necessarily change a person's values or attitudes. But
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at the very least we could have, for lack of a better word,
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accountability and compliance systems that help check behaviors. We would hope, I would
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hope that people will take it further than that. And I can't control that.
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I can't control that outcome and not and realizing having that realization that I
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cannot control that outcome has been absolutely instrumental in me working to maintain within this
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as best I can my own mental health quite frankly, and trauma. If
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we look at the state of things in terms of an arc over history as
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is there improvement? Has there been an improvement? You know? That's that's
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that's a good question, and it would depend on on what frame one is
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coming from in that when when we regard our laws, civil rights law,
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gender affirming care that we just passed in the state of Oregon, the federal
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law that says people from we talk about national origin, and the Affordable Care
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Act that people must receive their health information in their primary language if the program
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is receiving federal funds. Means so laws have definitely moved progressively to support the
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humanity of people. I mean we can say that we've come a long long
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way and where we sometimes we struggle in many ways. And one struggle tension
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point is the fear of having conversations around this. So people do have the
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opportunity to change, and so it's it's a cliche, uh And often in
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this work we do say, you know, a few moves forward, you
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know, three moves forward, one move back, two moves forward, four
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moves back. I mean we do EBB and flow and we are seeing right
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now. I think in our country a resurgence of some lack of shame around
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having racist attitudes and racist behaviors, and that to me is a drawback.
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That's that's that's that's those are moves backward as far as I'm concerned. As
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we kind of get ready to close out here, you talked a little bit
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about, uh, you know, kind of maintaining a certain awareness individually,
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What would you say to the listeners, many of whom are therapists and coaches
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and survivors of sorts, What would you say to them in terms of of
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things that they can do actively to begin to be more aware of their own
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attitudes and so forth. Well, I there there are many things that people
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can do. I think what's really important is what what is your reflect on?
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What is what is your life experience? Have you had to uh,
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have you had to I don't want I've used sort of violent language before,
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I'll use it one again. Have you had to fight for your own humanity?
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Are there people in your life where they have had to? You're reflecting
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upon what is your own personal experience and what is your exposure to people that
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are not like you? What is your level of comfort you being around people
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that are quote not like you, uh, and reading is critical, exposing
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yourself to new information. First and foremost, at the foundation of that is
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to get out of denial that racism and oppression do exist. We must get
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out of denial. One of another one of my favorite researchers, doctor Joy
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Degru, talks about the pathology of the American condition. The pathology is the
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denial that we come from a legacy of oppression, of genocide, of enslavement.
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We are not we are not removed at all anymore from that, as
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far as I am experiencing and so understanding the history and the reality, and
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we have I think at times, at times a crisis in critical thinking and
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a crisis in empathy. And so those are some tools we need to sharpen
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up a bit. As far as I'm concerned, I would really encourage first
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and foremost that reflection and then do something different and working to test your working,
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to you know, test your assumptions. I'm always shocked at myself.
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I'm thinking, yeah, as I said earlier, where did that come from?
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And so yeah, that's an assumption, that's something that was built you
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know, built into me, in in something that occurred forty years ago,
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you know, And so those types of things we are only we can only
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be the culmination of our experiences, including our culture, including our lived experience.
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And so how do we continue to broaden our lived experience to be more
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inclusive of people and to understand that there has been a narrative, a deliberate
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narrative over history, over time, that persists to dehumanize people, to mark
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some people as less than There are many examples of that that are horrific in
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this day and age. And we've got to check that in ourselves. We
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have to check where are we holding and regarding people as less than human?
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And I think we'd be surprised if we really, if each of us really
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sat with ourselves and reflected on that. Yeah, I appreciate that. I
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appreciate you. I really appreciate it coming out here and sharing your story and
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being vulnerable. I mean, that's what I'm hoping this podcast is about.
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If people are interested in getting in touch with you, how can they do
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that? What's the best way? Well, you know, I'm I'm almost
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sixty two years old, and this is not necessarily an age thing, because
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I know many people that are very they've got websites and all this. I
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don't have a website. I can provide an email address if that's howpful,
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if you want, you don't have to, yes, yes, well,
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or I can have people reach out to me and then I can pass something
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on. Okay, yeah, I can do that. You can reach out
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to me via my website from ataps podcast dot com and I can send that
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off to you. Leanne. Love talking to you. You welcome back here
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anytime. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. And you're just so
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frigging inspiring love it. Yes, well, thank you. You appreciate the
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opportunity. And right back at you. I have appreciated the opportunity to ca
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acting to talk and I'm so thank you. You're welcome, all right,
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We'll be in touch, all right, Thanks so much. Bye bye