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Sundance Wicks Blends Old School Coaching with New School · A Quick Timeout

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[music]
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to A Quick Timeout Podcast.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm Coach Tony Miller,
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SPEAKER_01: and I'm thrilled to welcome in someone who I've really wanted to have on the podcast
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SPEAKER_01: and who I've been looking forward to having on the show,
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SPEAKER_01: head coach for the Wyoming Cowboys, Coach Sundance Wicks.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: Coach, thanks for coming on the show.
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SPEAKER_00: Tony, always a pleasure, never a chore, my man.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Let's get to it, baby.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be here.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: So this is exactly where I wanted to start.
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SPEAKER_01: You are a high energy guy.
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SPEAKER_01: Your clips on Twitter get me fired up.
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SPEAKER_01: And you've got also, though, this like bit of old school feel to you.
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SPEAKER_01: A lot of grit.
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SPEAKER_01: I know personal.
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SPEAKER_01: Personal relationships are really important to you.
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SPEAKER_01: I've heard you talk on some other places, though,
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SPEAKER_01: and even though the old school feel,
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SPEAKER_01: you've really adapted to modern tactics and strategies and coaching philosophies.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Can you briefly speak to that journey?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a fantastic way to start it off right there.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Holy cow.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is the way you line up a question right now.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Let us go down a rabbit hole right away from the start.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of who you are as a coach is based on who were you around the most,
1:57
SPEAKER_00: who had some of the biggest influence on you.
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SPEAKER_00: And obviously when I played back in the late 90s, early 2000s, right?
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SPEAKER_00: They were still the old guard of coaches, man,
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SPEAKER_00: and the guys that were really disciplined, demanding, but they weren't demeaning.
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SPEAKER_00: They just expected a lot from me.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: And that was my college coach in Don Meyer.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, when he retired, he was the winningest coach in college basketball history at 923 wins.
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SPEAKER_00: He had a high level of success doing it his way.
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SPEAKER_00: And he always talked about, man,
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SPEAKER_00: like if you have A talent, right,
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SPEAKER_00: and an A work ethic,
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SPEAKER_00: like you're blessed as a coach if you get to coach somebody who has A talent,
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SPEAKER_00: A work ethic.
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SPEAKER_00: But then the coach's nightmare, right, is a guy with A talent and a B work ethic.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: And then the coach's dream in a lot of ways is a guy with an A work ethic and B talent.
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SPEAKER_00: And you want as many of those guys as you could possibly have.
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SPEAKER_00: And those guys are fun to coach.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the DNA that I was coached with and brought up in is a guy
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SPEAKER_00: who was a teacher, a mentor, a leader.
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SPEAKER_00: A role model for guys, man.
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SPEAKER_00: He always said, let your life be your argument.
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SPEAKER_00: Every day he was in the office at 4.35 a.m. You could never beat him into the office.
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SPEAKER_00: And so the grind of the old school,
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SPEAKER_00: like we're going to outwork you mentality is always stuck with me
3:00
SPEAKER_00: because I just believe there's no substitute for being able to put the work in
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SPEAKER_00: that needs to be done to get the results you want to have.
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SPEAKER_00: There never will be and ever will be a shortcut to the work.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Now there's efficiency in that model as well and that's I think where
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SPEAKER_00: the times have changed is your ability to become efficient In your output, right?
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SPEAKER_00: And not having to spend as much time researching or finding the stuff that you need
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SPEAKER_00: to be able to be effective or efficient as a coach.
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SPEAKER_00: That's how the game has changed.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: So that modern old school, like we're going to be tough, right?
3:33
SPEAKER_00: We talk about in our program, there's analytics and manalytics, right?
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SPEAKER_00: And you can never let your eyes, right?
3:40
SPEAKER_00: You can never let the data tell your eyes lies.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: That's one of the biggest things we use in our program as coaches is Just never let
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SPEAKER_00: the data tell your eyes lies.
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SPEAKER_00: The reason why we have jobs and why AI hasn't taken over for us as humans yet is
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SPEAKER_00: because we can still feel, right?
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SPEAKER_00: We can still see things that need to be seen when it comes to the psychology of a human.
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SPEAKER_00: Your players are going to have bad days.
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SPEAKER_00: AI can't read their moods.
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SPEAKER_00: So you've got to be able to still have a feel if a guy is Does he have his stuff tonight?
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SPEAKER_00: Does he got all his stuff tonight?
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SPEAKER_00: You know, like that's the part where that'll never change.
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SPEAKER_00: And I thank God for the coaches that came before us that mentored us
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SPEAKER_00: and showed us what tough love was like and how to coach through that.
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SPEAKER_00: But we make two decisions in our program and their data
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SPEAKER_00: And culturally dictated decisions are,
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SPEAKER_00: you know, how are players living your culture?
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SPEAKER_00: How are they diving into what you believe philosophically?
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SPEAKER_00: Are they burning the boats and believing Everything we do when it comes
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SPEAKER_00: to shot profile,
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SPEAKER_00: our rebounding scheme,
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SPEAKER_00: our defensive scheme,
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SPEAKER_00: our offensive system,
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SPEAKER_00: all those things,
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SPEAKER_00: those are culturally dictated decisions and players are living that.
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SPEAKER_00: Those help us separate when we have a tie between the data,
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SPEAKER_00: when the data is even with another player.
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SPEAKER_00: Now we go to a culturally dictated decision.
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SPEAKER_00: Are they living our culture the way we want them to?
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SPEAKER_00: But for the most part,
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SPEAKER_00: data a lot of times is one of the biggest separators you could possibly have,
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SPEAKER_00: especially the right data or metrics that matter to you.
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SPEAKER_00: Those are the biggest separators nowadays in how you can coach, teach, lead.
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SPEAKER_00: You've got to be able to have data in your program and metrics that matter.
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SPEAKER_00: So you can make hardline decisions when you need to.
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SPEAKER_01: Big shout out, by the way, to Coach Meyer.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: He was the first kind of coaching clinic mic'd up.
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SPEAKER_01: And I remember watching those VHS tapes and that kind of grainy old dark gym
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SPEAKER_01: and watching them practice and run through drills.
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SPEAKER_01: And those were some great times back then.
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SPEAKER_01: 30 of them, 30 VHS tapes, 30 VHS.
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SPEAKER_00: And then the printouts with the handouts.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had to pack.
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SPEAKER_00: Package those, by the way.
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SPEAKER_00: So, you know, my job as a GA was, you'd be like, Sonny, we got a guy down in Tennessee.
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SPEAKER_00: He wants, you know, attacking pressure, you know, tape 26 or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00: And I go tape 26, package it up, put the handout in there, mail it off.
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SPEAKER_00: I did hundreds of those, man, a week.
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SPEAKER_00: And it was unbelievable.
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SPEAKER_01: Ultimate share of the game and somebody who I've looked to and tried to follow
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SPEAKER_01: in his footsteps and yeah, I love Coach Meyer.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: You alluded to this and talked about this,
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SPEAKER_01: but I want to identify it for coaches because you just talked about essentially
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SPEAKER_01: the thing that a lot of coaches are struggling with and that's finding the balance
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SPEAKER_01: between those two things.
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SPEAKER_01: And I feel like sometimes they think it's an either or type of thing rather
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SPEAKER_01: than this is a support of something that Either it's the gut,
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SPEAKER_01: the eyes, or something that I already believed.
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SPEAKER_00: Adding the and to
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SPEAKER_01: it, right?
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: It's right.
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SPEAKER_00: The culture and data, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Culture and analytics, right?
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SPEAKER_00: And when you add the and to it versus the or to it,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I could sit in a team meeting all day long and rattle off a bunch of numbers
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SPEAKER_00: and tell them this points per possession and this XYZ.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it gets very acidic in a lot of ways and we can over inundate them.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: With all the numbers, because every single player has a number above their head, right?
7:04
SPEAKER_00: I look at them like they're like video game players.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like 0.96 points per possession on, you know, and you could get into all that.
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SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: you gotta, I always look at this for not, not in like a silo of, all right.
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SPEAKER_00: Here's the data for this, here's the data.
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SPEAKER_00: It's in your program.
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SPEAKER_00: This is where we all get it screwed up.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like things that matter to me will not matter to somebody else.
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SPEAKER_00: Now, there are some things that everybody pretty much looks at objectively and says,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah, that's a pretty important statistic, right?
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Like you talk about the four best shots you can take in basketball or
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SPEAKER_00: a cutting layup,
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SPEAKER_00: a driving layup, a paint touch or a rotation three and a free throw.
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SPEAKER_00: That's how sprawl ball started.
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SPEAKER_00: We all know that those numbers tell you that rim and three rate matter,
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SPEAKER_00: and that has led to the game changing at a high level or a more efficient level
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SPEAKER_00: for generating points, points per possession or points per shot.
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SPEAKER_00: So there's some things like that that are pretty static,
7:57
SPEAKER_00: but what about if we crash four guys to the offensive glass team and another team's
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SPEAKER_00: a crash three to the offensive glass team?
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SPEAKER_00: Well, then their offensive rebound percentage numbers may not matter as much as ours do.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were 17-1 last year.
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SPEAKER_00: When we had a 75% do-your-job effort and we won the glass and we send four to
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SPEAKER_00: the glass, we tag up.
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SPEAKER_00: We were won 35% to 40% of all available offensive rebounds.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a metric that matters to us,
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SPEAKER_00: so we can measure that in practice as well,
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SPEAKER_00: especially from an effort standpoint and know that when our guys meet
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SPEAKER_00: the 75% effort standard with our technique to crash into the offensive glass,
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SPEAKER_00: that results in more offensive rebounds,
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SPEAKER_00: which results in more possessions,
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SPEAKER_00: which results in more points, which results in more wins.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's a metric that really matters for us.
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SPEAKER_00: Now, 17-1 is too much of a dealt,
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SPEAKER_00: like there's not enough meat left off the bone right there,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: where you want to be able to lose some games too and maybe not,
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SPEAKER_00: or, you know, win some games when you don't hit that number as well.
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SPEAKER_00: So we're going to have to be better at other margins.
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SPEAKER_00: But balancing that is, look, there's a toughness element when it comes to crashing the glass.
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SPEAKER_00: So screw your analytics.
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SPEAKER_00: If you're not a man that goes to the glass with relentless accountability 75% of
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SPEAKER_00: the time,
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SPEAKER_00: regardless if you get the offensive rebound or not,
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SPEAKER_00: just that pressure for 40 minutes,
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SPEAKER_00: there is a cultural aspect of that, a toughness aspect to it that isn't a number.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a man going to make an effort that matters.
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SPEAKER_00: And that, to me, that's the cultural piece of that.
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SPEAKER_00: The analytical piece of that is once we chart that stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: we show you the results or we show you the numbers and we say,
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SPEAKER_00: look, this makes sense.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you can't have a number,
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SPEAKER_00: And not match it.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't have an analytic and not match it to a manalitic, right?
9:47
SPEAKER_00: So, all right, well, we want to take better shots.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, what does a paint touch or a rotation three require?
9:52
SPEAKER_00: In a lot of ways, it requires an assist.
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SPEAKER_00: It requires somebody to make a pass to another person.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get the paint.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: I kick it out for a rotation or a one more.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, all right,
10:02
SPEAKER_00: the manalitic is you better make the one more pass on the kickout on the rotation.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: The analytic is when we chart that,
10:09
SPEAKER_00: that's a pretty high points per possession or points per shot.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: So if you don't have the analytic that matches them,
10:14
SPEAKER_00: analytic or vice versa,
10:16
SPEAKER_00: then I think you're just sitting there and you're spinning your wheels in a lot
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11:08
SPEAKER_01: So with all of the data that is available,
11:11
SPEAKER_01: in addition to what we've always had with the film and the box score,
11:14
SPEAKER_01: you're talking about, you said it's saving you time.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: So for the coach who,
11:19
SPEAKER_01: all right,
11:20
SPEAKER_01: so how do I manage my time and make sure that I'm looking at the right stuff?
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SPEAKER_01: How do you decide what is actionable versus what is just noise?
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think that's trial and error too, right?
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, the old phrase is if everything's important, nothing is, right?
11:35
SPEAKER_00: So you can't chart everything,
11:37
SPEAKER_00: but what I, Look,
11:38
SPEAKER_00: these staffs are getting, I mean,
11:41
SPEAKER_00: I saw a picture,
11:42
SPEAKER_00: this is not a slide on Creighton by any stretch of the imagination,
11:45
SPEAKER_00: but I saw a team picture of Creighton yesterday on Twitter,
11:49
SPEAKER_00: and I saw all the players sitting in a row, and then subsequently that's 15 players.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: Behind each of those players was a staff member.
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SPEAKER_00: That's 15,
11:58
SPEAKER_00: whether it's GA or manager or whoever,
12:01
SPEAKER_00: or coach, that's one coach per player on the team.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: That ratio is insane.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how you find enough jobs for people to do nowadays.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: We really dial into each one of my staff members has an area of expertise.
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SPEAKER_00: That is their area.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Coach Martin does do your job rebounding.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Coach McMillan does tag up rebounding in our blob defense.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Coach O'Flanagan does gaps.
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SPEAKER_00: He does our gap attack defensively.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: Coach Whitmore does our rotations.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: There's not a number attached to all these things, but we are diving into an area of expertise.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Coach Thomas is offensive efficiency, right?
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Coach Reynolds is broad defensive schemes, ball screen coverage, right?
12:45
SPEAKER_00: And so each guy has an area where they're charting something or they're looking
12:49
SPEAKER_00: at this and they're saying,
12:50
SPEAKER_00: we do have We do chart our gap attacks and what happens
12:54
SPEAKER_00: when we rake versus don't rake and what are the points per possession on when
12:59
SPEAKER_00: a guy picks his dribble up at the elbow versus when a guy picks his dribble up at
13:02
SPEAKER_00: the second hash.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: So little things like that where we can dive into it.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: So I say this,
13:09
SPEAKER_00: how do you know what's important and what's not is, look,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: After a season of charting data,
13:15
SPEAKER_00: and a couple of these,
13:16
SPEAKER_00: we've done a couple of these, we know for us, I'm maniacal about turnovers, right?
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Especially live ball ones.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Shot selection.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Because shot profile matters.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Turnovers can also be shot selection turnovers for us.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Our coverage,
13:30
SPEAKER_00: making sure that we are,
13:32
SPEAKER_00: just like Houston charts their ball screen coverage,
13:33
SPEAKER_00: we chart our ball screen coverage.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: Our offensive and defensive rebounding, we chart.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: That matters.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: We want to get more points off offensive rebounds than we give up
13:43
SPEAKER_00: in transition points over the course of the season.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: That's how we create our difference there.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: Year one, we were upside down here.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: We were 12 and 18.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Last year, we had more offensive rebound points.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: We gave up points in transition defense by a pretty hefty margin.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: We won 18 games.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: We flipped that.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: So we felt that was a pretty important metric.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: And then also like the rebounding effort part of it is what we stole
14:03
SPEAKER_00: from Jeff Linder when I was here, do your job rebounding.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: But both offensively and defensively from an effort standpoint,
14:09
SPEAKER_00: they yielded results that felt that was a very important metric that mattered.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: All right.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: And then the shot profile and shot types that we shoot,
14:16
SPEAKER_00: been charting that since the Jeff Linder era here as well.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: We felt that was your points per possession always mattered.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, higher points per possession, you have the better chance you have winning a game.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: Just that's effective field goal percentage.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: That's pretty simple.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: So I say all that is.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: Look, in our program,
14:30
SPEAKER_00: we have four to five things that are pretty dialed in when it comes to charting
14:35
SPEAKER_00: and measuring those, and our guys know that.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And we reward those things.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: We have the DYJ, do your job, defensive rebounding dog of the week every week, right?
14:43
SPEAKER_00: We have the DYJ chain.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: We celebrate screen assists,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: sacrifice cuts,
14:48
SPEAKER_00: one more culturally so we can have better offensive flow and continuity and reward
14:53
SPEAKER_00: the guys that are doing the hard things for players.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: To create easy shots or better shots for him.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Those things we can emphasize over and over again, right?
15:01
SPEAKER_00: It's not what you teach, it's what you emphasize, Coach Meyer.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And we just emphasize the four to five things that really matter to us.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Every single film session,
15:09
SPEAKER_00: every single week, every single game, every single practice when we stat stuff.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: So it's just a running line item of...
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Here's why it matters.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: And it always matters because if we do it one week or we do it one game and
15:22
SPEAKER_00: then we don't do it the next, right?
15:24
SPEAKER_00: That your players don't have that consistency that they need to
15:28
SPEAKER_00: at least make it relevant to them.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you mentioned that because we have trended towards this
15:34
SPEAKER_01: and it has allowed me to,
15:36
SPEAKER_01: over the last about four years,
15:37
SPEAKER_01: become focused on, like you said, what actually matters for our program.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: And you also alluded to this was the fact that some things may be slightly different
15:45
SPEAKER_01: for your program than for my program based upon system and both sides of the ball.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: And then it allowed me to communicate better to the players what actually mattered
15:54
SPEAKER_01: so that we weren't just all over the place.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And that goes to the point of if you don't track anything or Make anything important
15:59
SPEAKER_01: that nobody knows what's actually is important out there.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: The award thing I thought is also interesting.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: I got that from Tobin Anderson about four or five years ago and we did the figurines
16:11
SPEAKER_01: and we have these figurines of superheroes that we give out that mean something like
16:15
SPEAKER_01: that.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: And at our end of year one on ones, we would ask the guys, what did you like?
16:21
SPEAKER_01: What did you not like?
16:21
SPEAKER_01: What should we keep doing?
16:22
SPEAKER_01: And like 75 percent of them mentioned those stupid figurines.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: And you're like these college kids that think these little figurines that we hand out each week.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: But to your point, it just kind of reemphasizes.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's the kind of stuff that makes your culture.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Attach meaning to it, right?
16:38
SPEAKER_00: So we have a saying in our program,
16:39
SPEAKER_00: never let an outside entity or a voice attach meaning to your work, right?
16:44
SPEAKER_00: If you're waiting for someone to make your work meaningful or attach meaning to it,
16:47
SPEAKER_00: then your work isn't meaningless to begin with, right?
16:50
SPEAKER_00: So we always attach meaning to what we do.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Nobody has to value what we value.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: It's cultural, right?
16:56
SPEAKER_00: That's who we are every single day.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: It's what we live and what we breathe.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: And so we attach a lot of meaning to what we do and why we emphasize those things.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: While somebody else...
17:06
SPEAKER_00: We may do a chain.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Somebody does a figurine.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, that is attaching a meaning to it.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: And you got guys fighting for that DYJ chain or, hey, man, I want to be Batman this week.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Batman of the boards or whatever it is.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: That's a cool deal.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think we're under the necks so much nowadays.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's just nice to just do the same old boring thing over and over again
17:28
SPEAKER_00: and, you know, find a way to spice it up.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you're doing,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: you're charting the same stuff,
17:33
SPEAKER_00: but it's just, it's a different chain or it's a different figurine.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: It is actually Batman and I'm going to start calling it now.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Batman of the boards.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: So we're going to do that.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Saving Gotham with every rebound.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to use that.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: I'll give you credit too.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: So last year you guys had some injuries midseason and just any time That happens.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: We as coaches faced with lineup decisions that can completely change style of play,
18:00
SPEAKER_01: rotations,
18:01
SPEAKER_01: everything that goes into how did you use platforms, AI,
18:06
SPEAKER_01: that kind of thing to analyze and even speak specifically about what you used
18:10
SPEAKER_01: and how that helped.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: But to analyze those lineups,
18:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm really looking forward to this because I'm thinking about this and kind
18:18
SPEAKER_01: of we have some guys out right now and then they come back and I want
18:21
SPEAKER_01: to make sure again,
18:22
SPEAKER_01: That I'm making informed decisions,
18:24
SPEAKER_01: not necessarily just what my eyes see and my eyes are deceived maybe from that.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: I won't be a gatekeeper here, right?
18:31
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to be a gatekeeper right now because I feel like we have a secret weapon,
18:36
SPEAKER_00: but we use pick and roll AI,
18:38
SPEAKER_00: which I'm just telling you right now,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: if there's anybody out there that's not using it or you've heard from them
18:44
SPEAKER_00: and have talked to them and you're thinking about it,
18:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm just telling you right now,
18:48
SPEAKER_00: it was one of the single most,
18:50
SPEAKER_00: it's probably two or three things,
18:51
SPEAKER_00: but One of the single most important factors to us finishing
18:55
SPEAKER_00: the way we did last year because of the ability to access information
19:01
SPEAKER_00: that isn't readily available to most sites,
19:05
SPEAKER_00: which is like,
19:06
SPEAKER_00: all right,
19:07
SPEAKER_00: we have statistical evidence on teams playing the game,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: but it's really hard to dig into something or find an advanced analytic or
19:15
SPEAKER_00: a deeper metric when let's say a team has played without a certain player.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: I use Grand Canyon, for example, before we went down to play Grand Canyon.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: We use pick and roll AI.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: We're about to go play Grand Canyon.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: Caleb Shaw is a heavy gravity player.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, elite shooter, torched us up at our place, was been on a heater, rolls his ankle.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: He's out for four or five games, right?
19:36
SPEAKER_00: We're like, well,
19:37
SPEAKER_00: how has,
19:38
SPEAKER_00: you could look at any platform and I'd be like,
19:40
SPEAKER_00: yeah, field goal percentage, whatever.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: How has Grand Canyon statistically or stylistically changed in the last five games
19:46
SPEAKER_00: without Caleb Shaw?
19:48
SPEAKER_00: We'll type in that into pick and roll AI, give it to the proper prompts, comes back.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: We see that a three-point shooting percentage goes down drastically, right?
19:57
SPEAKER_00: From 34 to like 28,
19:59
SPEAKER_00: 27% without him on the floor because his gravity allowed for other people
20:02
SPEAKER_00: to have gravity, right?
20:04
SPEAKER_00: And so their whole effective field goal percentage
20:06
SPEAKER_00: and true shooting percentage changed with him being out for five games.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: So we shrunk the gaps and were able to steal one on the road to GCU.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Have we just looked at the basic metrics that you always look at,
20:16
SPEAKER_00: you're still probably fooled a little bit
20:18
SPEAKER_00: by their overall three-point shooting numbers based on the cumulative comp or
20:21
SPEAKER_00: the compound interest or compound effect of the season.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: So that was one area where just being able to dive into that in
20:30
SPEAKER_00: an advanced technological way, right?
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: People are scared of like, wow, how do we know it's true or real?
20:36
SPEAKER_00: The point is we were stuck there a little bit.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: And for us, as we went down the season, we had some injuries.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I said, all right, I was trying to play big a lot.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: And I go, all right, I'm not sure this is where we need to be right now.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Give me the difference between our small ball lineup that we played sparingly at
20:52
SPEAKER_00: the time and our big ball lineup.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: Because I felt like we had to be bigger in our league.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: The biggest thing with our big ball,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: small ball lineup was,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: you know, are we going to sacrifice offense for defense or defense for offense?
21:06
SPEAKER_00: I thought we were better defensively big.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: And what ended up happening was we were actually better per 100 possessions
21:11
SPEAKER_00: defensively and offensively.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: And we were probably shorter by about five inches, you know.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: I would have never trusted that because my eyes would have kept telling me
21:22
SPEAKER_00: a different story from what I was actually seeing.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: And I needed some statistical evidence to say, you know what?
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Smaller isn't actually worse for you.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: You have more gravity offensively.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: You're stretching teams out.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: And you are subsequently better defensively per 100 possessions, even though you're smaller.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, it allowed us to play with more pace.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: We were a little bit more fly around and figure it out.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: And so we won five of our last six league games for the first time,
21:47
SPEAKER_00: I think, in like 20 years in Mountain West play.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: And we made that adjustment after losing at home to Utah State, who we were forced to play.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: Small ball against because of injuries.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: And we lost by two to a really good Utah State team.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: I said, man, was this a flash in the pan deal?
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Or is this something that we've been actually, if I look back at the evidence we were doing?
22:10
SPEAKER_00: And so that lineup analysis that Pick and Roll AI was able to give me And present
22:14
SPEAKER_00: the data in a way where I could read it, right?
22:16
SPEAKER_00: And understand it.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's not just, it's not, you know, some quadratic equation that you can't understand.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: It literally just tells you, yeah,
22:23
SPEAKER_00: you are actually a better team with these guards playing,
22:26
SPEAKER_00: these four guards and a big guy.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: And if you keep a small ball rotation, it's been better for you.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And so we went five of our last six games to go to the NIT.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: Man, look,
22:35
SPEAKER_00: I attribute a lot of that to be able to have the access to the information,
22:40
SPEAKER_00: but also the efficiency and In which you can get it.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: And then in the way it presents it to you,
22:45
SPEAKER_00: because we input all of our program into our pick and roll AI, it learns us.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: And the more you,
22:53
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
22:53
SPEAKER_00: the more you interact with it, the smarter it gets when it comes to your program.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't do it for everybody else.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: It does it for yours and how you want the language to be.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: And that is fascinating to me in a day and age.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: I just did a TCU exhibition game scour report before we hopped on the call.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: I prompted in.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: It took 12 minutes.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Look, they have five transfers from different places.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: It's telling me about who they were, where they were at.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's the depth at which it can go because we always fact check it.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: We do the work now.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Look.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Coach Reynolds has the scout.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: He does the work.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: I didn't plug any of this stuff in until the scout was done
23:29
SPEAKER_00: and we'd already presented it and we'd already talked to our guys about
23:31
SPEAKER_00: because I like to fact check and go,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: all right, Mr. AI, let's see how you're doing today.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, the AI alarmists think we're all going to die in a couple of years anyways.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: Let's see what's going on over here.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And he plugged it in.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: I plugged it in and Put it out.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: I gave it to him.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: I said, Coach, you're still a pretty damn good coach.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: All right.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Pick and roll AI agrees with them.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: You're 99% of what you just said right there.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: It's good, man.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: You need it.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: How has it changed conversations with coaches and with players?
23:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, pick and roll AI for us, I'd label it as an assistant for your assistants.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm a head coach.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I have assistants.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: I can sit out and yell, C-Mac, where are we at on tag-ups?
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Coach Martin, what did you see on your rebounding stuff?
24:10
SPEAKER_00: I can sit there and they're my version of an AI, right?
24:14
SPEAKER_00: They're like actual real humans I can talk to and yell at me like, hey, I need this.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's an assistant for the assistants.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: So now let's just say that I've been there a thousand times, 20 years as an assistant, right?
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Yet you're getting this quandary of, am I seeing this correctly?
24:30
SPEAKER_00: All right, let me ask the question.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: Let me prompt it.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: And let me just see.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: And I could be seeing it correctly and could validate that.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Or it may help me see something or frame it in a different way where I'm like,
24:41
SPEAKER_00: that actually makes a lot of sense.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Now that I'm thinking about it,
24:45
SPEAKER_00: because it was there, but I just couldn't quite get all of it the way I wanted to.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it makes my assistants smarter.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: That way,
24:52
SPEAKER_00: when we plug in our own data,
24:54
SPEAKER_00: so Coach O'Flanagan's doing our gap attacks, he'll plug it into Pick and Roll AI.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: He charts it all, stats it all, plugs it in and says, take my information.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: And then break it down in digestible chunks
25:04
SPEAKER_00: so we can all understand exactly what it is we're doing here.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: And we give that sheet of paper to the players and it says, hey,
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Parker, Garrett, and Uriah Rojas, you are the standard in our gap attacks right now.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: Madden Smiley, you've shown a lot of growth XYZ over the last week.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Nas Meyer, you're the leak right now.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: You're there a lot, but you're not getting the outcome that we want like Uriah and Parker.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: So what technical thing are you doing that's different that we can look at
25:31
SPEAKER_00: on film now and say, this is why Nas' gaps aren't as good as Parker's or Uriah's.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: And that just ability to take all the raw data that we chart,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: plug it into the system and for it to spit out how we want it
25:44
SPEAKER_00: and how we can understand how our players can understand it, right?
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Digestible chunks.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: That's how the conversation changes.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: I think it takes a lot of time to collect the data and then to type it all up and
25:56
SPEAKER_00: then to write it, all that.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: It takes so much time.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: It just saves time.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it saves hours.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: It saves hours for my assistants.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: So those conversations are easy now for us when it comes to like where we're at with
26:10
SPEAKER_00: the data and how it's being charted and all that stuff.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: From a player's perspective, you know, everybody wants comps.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: They want to see where they're at.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: I love when a guy comes in and says, who do you like to study?
26:21
SPEAKER_00: The guy says, I like to study Shea Gilgis Alexander.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's who I feel like in my game, you know, like, oh, the MVP of the league, right?
26:27
SPEAKER_00: It's pretty good.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: And then We type in his DNA,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: who he is as a player, and say, give me a realistic comp right now for player X.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: And that comp says, while it's nice that he likes to be like SGA,
26:40
SPEAKER_00: let's picture him more as a Kevin Herter right now.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: So this is where I always feel like players have such,
26:47
SPEAKER_00: if they have humility,
26:48
SPEAKER_00: they don't tell you they like to study Kevin Durant or LeBron or SGA.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: They actually say, like, I like to study Larry Nance.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, he was a four-year college guy.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Or I like to study, you know, Kevin Herter, right?
26:59
SPEAKER_00: It was pretty good.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: When you give me a real comp,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: now we can sit there and say,
27:04
SPEAKER_00: let's start there versus starting with the MVP of
27:06
SPEAKER_00: the National Basketball Association.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think that helps change the conversation, too,
27:11
SPEAKER_00: because it pulls data from the last,
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Pick and Roll AI pulls data from the last 20 years of basketball,
27:17
SPEAKER_00: NBA and college, right?
27:19
SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of data.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: To reference that against players that are currently playing the game
27:25
SPEAKER_00: and their statistical makeup and to be able to have not one example,
27:28
SPEAKER_00: but two or three or four,
27:30
SPEAKER_00: like that can change the whole mentality at which a player thinks about just from
27:34
SPEAKER_00: a comp perspective,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: let alone if we're saying,
27:36
SPEAKER_00: hey, tell me if guys are really a knockdown shooter, right?
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And he thinks he's the world's greatest shooter.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, tell me all the 180 shooters in the last 15 years.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden the guy goes,
27:48
SPEAKER_00: oh man, there's a lot better shooters out there than I thought.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: I thought I was special, right?
27:52
SPEAKER_00: No.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: These conversations can be had.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: The data becomes easier to digest.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: When it's, it's, it's spilled in a way that's not confrontational.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: Like you're not as good as you think you are.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Like here, like here's some players.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Here's all the players in college last year who did exactly what you did.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: You don't even know half of their names,
28:11
SPEAKER_00: but this is why, like, this is why we got to keep growing in the margins.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: So I just, man, you could ask it any question in any situation from scheduling for us.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm going down this,
28:23
SPEAKER_00: this rant here,
28:23
SPEAKER_00: but from scheduling to,
28:25
SPEAKER_00: to player development, to creating a, I mean, it's our program.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: So when I say, hey,
28:31
SPEAKER_00: what are we going to do with Naz Meyer for the next three months over the course of
28:34
SPEAKER_00: the summer to help make sure that he becomes more of a volume three-point shooter
28:38
SPEAKER_00: than just a guy who's a maker, right?
28:40
SPEAKER_00: And he's going to have a great percentage on few makes,
28:43
SPEAKER_00: but what if we have him shooting six threes a game?
28:47
SPEAKER_00: How can we change his workout program and regimen?
28:50
SPEAKER_00: We can type that in.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: We can get it all out and ready for him.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: And we could say, this is a shooting workout that this player X has done before.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: It makes you a better coach because it gives you another avenue of connection.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: I'll ask you one more thing,
29:03
SPEAKER_01: and this one I'm going to ask a little bit selfishly because I want to get better
29:07
SPEAKER_01: at it, and I want to have more informed decisions.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Interested to hear,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: have you used it,
29:12
SPEAKER_01: or how have you used it in regards to even substitutions during games?
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Who all should play, how much they should play, when you should sub?
29:21
SPEAKER_01: How have you gone about that, and has this changed any of that?
29:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the lineup stuff is still, it's such a unique thing.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Thing for I think every program, right?
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Because you can have lineups that you like and lineups that work well together.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: But once again,
29:39
SPEAKER_00: a lot of us aren't the NBA where we're on a minutes load and the guy is,
29:44
SPEAKER_00: he knows when he's getting subbed out every single game and why,
29:48
SPEAKER_00: and this is the rotation, right?
29:50
SPEAKER_00: And for us,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: we're still trying to grow and develop players and make sure
29:54
SPEAKER_00: that they can stay fresh and guys may not see minutes for two weeks,
29:57
SPEAKER_00: but then all of a sudden he's been doing a heck of a job in practice and
29:59
SPEAKER_00: the guy gets hurt.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: And now all of a sudden he comes into that.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: For us, I still,
30:04
SPEAKER_00: it's a lot more feel for us right now,
30:06
SPEAKER_00: especially early on in the season with new rosters, new teams.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like what lineups work, what lineups don't.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: But when we get into the meat of it all,
30:16
SPEAKER_00: Coach Whitmore tracks all of our lineups and he plugs it in and we'll find
30:22
SPEAKER_00: the outlier, right?
30:23
SPEAKER_00: That's the thing for us is not the lineup that's consistent and kind of what's
30:28
SPEAKER_00: the lineup that we're not thinking about that we should use more that's the outlier
30:33
SPEAKER_00: or use less that's the outlier,
30:35
SPEAKER_00: whether it's a really big plus or a really big minus.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm not too much worried about the little micro shifts are here,
30:41
SPEAKER_00: but it's the macro shifts for us that That tell us this lineup you need to play.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: And right now we get a chance to experiment with some of that in our preseason
30:52
SPEAKER_00: when we have three exhibition games.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: But then we're not, like I said, we're not NBA guys.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: These are still young guys growing where Madden Smiley now versus Madden Smiley
31:02
SPEAKER_00: in March is going to be a completely different player.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: And his lineups from January through March are going to be different than
31:09
SPEAKER_00: from November and December in how he plays or how he contributes maybe to winning.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's really subjective, Tony.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: I wish I could give you a great answer and say, this is how I would do it.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm still a big field guy when it comes to that.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: I talk with my substitution coach,
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Coach Reynolds,
31:24
SPEAKER_00: before every game based on, because we say every day is an audition in our program.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: It's a big deal to us.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Every day is an audition.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: And I stay true to that when it comes to rewarding guys.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: The right to play.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: If you're going to audition for a week of practice
31:40
SPEAKER_00: and you are kicking someone's butt for a week of practice and that guy has been
31:43
SPEAKER_00: an absolute train wreck and hasn't shown up,
31:46
SPEAKER_00: we're going to make that culturally dictated decision to go with what matters
31:51
SPEAKER_00: to us more is that you as a person are starting to change.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: And you decided, hey, I'm going to double down.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: I haven't played in two weeks.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to, you know what, message sent, message received.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: And then the other guy's like, I'm feeling good about myself.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: We're still going to send those culturally dictated, you know, decisions.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: We're going to make those prevalent in our program.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Even if the data is pretty close, that guy's been kicking your butt.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: So we say every day is an audition in our program.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: That could screw our lineups up every once in a while.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: But I started the most lineups of college basketball when I was at Green Bay for one year.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: They're like,
32:24
SPEAKER_00: you started 24 different lineups,
32:27
SPEAKER_00: 20 different lineup combinations in the course of 30 games.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we reward guys who win their audition.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: This is great.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to link down below for people to pick and roll AI
32:37
SPEAKER_01: and hopefully people listen to this,
32:40
SPEAKER_01: but maybe the secret doesn't get out as much so you can keep it safe there.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: I hope it does, Tony.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: I hope it does, man.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: I wish more people would You know, it's adapt or die now, right?
32:49
SPEAKER_00: It's adapt or die.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: And I want to go back to the question you first asked when we started this,
32:54
SPEAKER_00: which was, you know, how do you blend the old school with the new school?
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Look, I'm hard on my guys, man.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: The algorithm loves me right now on Instagram, right?
33:01
SPEAKER_00: The coaches are like, they'll text me like that.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: And that's stuff from Green Bay or two years ago in Wyoming.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: But I think we are, we'll trend back this way, but we got soft for a while.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: And scared to coach because of all the change that was happening.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: What if we lose players?
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me tell you, you win a lot of games, you're going to lose players.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: You lose a lot of games, you're going to lose players.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: So what's the common denominator?
33:24
SPEAKER_00: You're going to lose players.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: But what we can't do is lose players and not have them learn while they're
33:30
SPEAKER_00: in your program or not have them,
33:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:33
SPEAKER_00: sacrifice or learn how to be great teammates and still teach them and coach them
33:36
SPEAKER_00: and push them.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: The best thing that ever happened to me was my coach being demanding on me.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: And being really hard on me was the best thing that ever happened to me as a player
33:43
SPEAKER_00: to understand what discipline really means and to show up every single day
33:47
SPEAKER_00: the same way, regardless of your circumstances.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that an old school approach of, hey, look, you still you still got to love a man.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: You still got to love him.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: But discipline is the highest form of love.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm way different off the floor than I am on the floor.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: My alter ego.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm the juice man on the floor.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: It's my alter ego.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm Sonny D in the office, man.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: It's just it's just how it's who you have to be as a coach.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Is that you can still push kids.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: They want to be pushed.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Great ones want to be pushed.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: If we're scared to do that, why are we in the profession?
34:18
SPEAKER_00: That's not the guys that coached us.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: They weren't like that.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: You can be competitive and kind, right?
34:24
SPEAKER_00: You can still kick ass in between the lines.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: And you can still form a great connection with the player, even while you're correcting them.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Out there on the floor,
34:35
SPEAKER_00: because you can do that off the floor and you can tell them how much you love them
34:38
SPEAKER_00: and how freaking ecstatic you are about who the person they are and how they're,
34:42
SPEAKER_00: you know, who are they becoming?
34:44
SPEAKER_00: That still matters nowadays.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And so don't just,
34:47
SPEAKER_00: don't just die on a hill analytically and don't just be the last guy selling CDs out
34:51
SPEAKER_00: the trunk of your car and just say,
34:53
SPEAKER_00: we all our hearts, all heart and toughness around here.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
34:56
SPEAKER_00: the more skin needs the better,
34:58
SPEAKER_00: like be somewhere in the middle, have a little bit of both.
35:01
[music]