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Frankenstein (2025) – The Creature's final form? · CinemaHounds - A Lorehounds Podcast

0:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to another meeting of the monster club with the horror hounds.
0:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Alicia, the Lorhound's resident grand-dom of the Gothic.
0:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Jean, fan of all types of super heroes, even when they're super dope monsters.
0:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is our coverage of the new Guillermo del Toro adaptation of Frankenstein, available to stream on Netflix.
0:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to quickly give some fresh takes.
0:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm calling them.
0:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I heard Nicole and David got called out for, we say hot takes as in, you know, here's like our freshest takes, not always that we're being controversial.
0:57
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
0:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to call them freshtakes from them.
0:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So here are some quick freshtakes without spoilers for anyone who hasn't watched yet, but we're not going to linger too long there.
1:07
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, like freaking Frankenstein, you probably know the outlines of the story at least.
1:14
[SPEAKER_02]: But quickly, Shawn, what's your background with the whole Frankenstein genre?
1:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I first sort of the bar of the bar is called off version when I was a kid before I even reading the novel, so, you know, it was Frankenstein, I think it was, um, Dracula, you know, all of these.
1:39
[SPEAKER_00]: 30s films.
1:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I consumed as a child.
1:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I even think three studios had some Frankenstein and Monster mayhem and things of that nature and I would watch those as a kid, especially around Thanksgiving time.
1:57
[SPEAKER_00]: because they were always showing on TV.
2:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was my first four-ray to the story.
2:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then maybe in 7th grade, I think, was the first time that I read the novel.
2:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was the first time I read the novel that wasn't like in maybe I was 12, 13.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and...
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just, you know, captivated, right?
2:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have a long history of being inundated with visions of the Frankenstein monster.
2:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
2:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's one of those obviously it's been around much longer than either of us, so it's just something, yeah, it's tough to say.
2:45
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the first version I watched?
2:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it even something like young Frankenstein, you know?
2:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, at some point, I suppose I read the novel when I was required to in high school.
2:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And then
2:59
[SPEAKER_02]: didn't fully appreciate it until later.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, obviously, I am very into the 19th century and the literature of that period, particularly the romantics and the ideas that they had about how monsters are made by society and all the things that's at the heart of Frankenstein.
3:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm also clearly, if anyone knows my taste, it won't surprise you to know I am a fan of Guillermo del Toro.
3:29
[SPEAKER_02]: That is exactly my gem.
3:31
[SPEAKER_02]: What about you?
3:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you a Guillermo del Toro?
3:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've seen every film that he's done, actually.
3:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm a fan, you know, Blade, which one was with the second one, I think?
3:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
3:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he did Blade.
3:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the best one.
3:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Hellboy, Pan's Labor, of course, Pacific Rim.
3:56
[SPEAKER_00]: The mimic was one of my favorite movies.
4:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so basically I've seen, I think I've seen every film he's made.
4:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I've watched all these films and I love best the Gothic ones, the, you know, Pennslavery and shape of water, them.
4:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, crimson peak.
4:17
[SPEAKER_02]: You see a lot of crimson peak explicitly coming back visually in this movie.
4:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and this is like Frankenstein was was, you know, he's a monster lover, clearly, and, uh, Frankenstein, this is the movie he's been dreaming about making for ever since he was a child.
4:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's really cool to see him finally get to do it and get to have the budget for it, um, it apparently cost 120 million was a reported budget.
4:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, it's definitely his grand opus to date, and also I love him for recently being very vocal about not using AI in art, you can tell that he's also into the romantics with a capital R, you know, like the Shelly's and Byron, he's clearly studied the period and he echoes their sentiments as well.
5:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
5:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Cool, dude.
5:14
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think of?
5:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay, let me set up the premise real quick.
5:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Victor Frankenstein, a brilliant but egotistical scientist, brings a creature to life in a monstrous experiment that ultimately leads to the undoing of both the creator and his tragic creation and to spoiler free for now what do you think about the movie overall?
5:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Fresh Takes.
5:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I really wish that I saw it in the theater first, um, I didn't get a chance to do that.
5:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was, um, that's going to be something that I regret and because even on on TV is still beautiful to watch, but I can only imagine on the largest of possible screens, what is so packed.
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I would the things that I would be able to point out that I wasn't able to point out on TV So I wish that I had seen it on in theater I thought the casting over all was excellent Everyone really sunk their teeth into this wrong into their roles.
6:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You know
6:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think there was anyone who I didn't want to see on the screen when they were on screen.
6:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So I thought that was everyone did a spectacular job.
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, the visuals were gorgeous.
6:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And the one thing that I'll say is that I would like to go back into this very specific world with this very specific Frankenstein monster.
6:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It may be one of my favorite adaptations of the monster.
6:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, yeah.
6:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would very like to continue to see post this movie, the monsters, the monsters, trajectory in life.
7:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I'll say it has a, you know, a less definite ending than, you know, like the 30s movies with Boris Karlov, it has more of an ending like the book, but
7:23
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of more hopeful ending than most versions of this story in some ways.
7:27
[SPEAKER_02]: So, oh, yeah, it leaves room there that, you know, there could be more story to tell.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think del Toro is going to do that, but, um, no.
7:37
[SPEAKER_02]: But there is definitely room to tell more story.
7:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
7:41
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we be curious?
7:42
[SPEAKER_02]: No one ever seems to do a proper sequel to what happens after.
7:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
7:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I am glad that I got to watch it the first time in the theater.
7:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I was lucky to live somewhere that happens to.
7:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
7:57
[SPEAKER_02]: We get some Netflix movies, but not others.
8:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Luckily, we got this one.
8:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, you know, with the visuals and the audience reactions were great too.
8:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a great to be in it.
8:10
[SPEAKER_02]: all sniffling together at certain points or gasping at others.
8:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I just have to say the whole Netflix buying Warner Brothers thing.
8:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope that if this goes through.
8:26
[SPEAKER_02]: that the influence goes the opposite way, that they have to allow Warner Bros. movies to play in the theaters more, and that they therefore allow their set pieces like this one to have wide releases and that they
8:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I also just have to say, please, please, please, never, never, never binge drop HBO shows.
8:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's enough about Netflix, but I'll just say, yeah, so I have a long history with this story, but I've also over recent months been intensely going through and studying this story, the original versions of it, the many adaptations, many of them.
9:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have had very clear in my head like just where all of the tropes came from along the path of adaptation.
9:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was still surprised by some of the things that he did with this movie.
9:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though I watched, I don't know how many different versions of this story recently.
9:28
[SPEAKER_02]: He still did some very new things.
9:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have to say at the end of the day, I didn't get everything that I was hoping for going in, but I realized this is a movie.
9:38
[SPEAKER_02]: that Guillermo del Toro is making about from his perspective, and it's not going to be obviously the movie that Alicia would make from hers.
9:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So I really appreciate it, and I think it is probably tied with the Kenneth Brennan one from 1992 is my favorite adaptation, and I know
10:00
[SPEAKER_02]: The 1992 one gets some shit, but I think, I don't know, I like the bombacity for this story, and yeah, I think that they are both grand cinema and just really exploring the nuances of the characters.
10:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say that I did appreciate that it wasn't like a straight adaptation of the story.
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Through his own version of the story and this is his view what he found to be important and changed the things that he wanted to change to make the focus on those sorts of things that he wanted to talk about, so I was very happy that it wasn't like a straight adaptation
10:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
10:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, that's what would be the point then, right?
10:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we, we, we, we know the story.
10:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
10:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of us do at least.
11:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
11:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we, oh, and if you don't, there's, you know, hundreds of different ways to consume different versions of it.
11:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
11:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So, what would you say is the Pokemon rating for anyone who doesn't know this is are rating for not only physical violence in Gore, but also emotional violence?
11:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to be a five.
11:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I was four.
11:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Four to five, you know, I wouldn't give it anything less than a four.
11:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm, I was thinking of three, but I could settle.
11:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay, I'm okay.
11:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's not as, the Gore level isn't that.
11:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe I'll be honest.
11:39
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not true.
11:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
11:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it is.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
11:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, let's go and slow down.
11:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, well, except for the animals.
11:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and then that's right.
11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And then other things, another thing, yeah, another thing, yeah.
11:57
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, yeah, yeah, not for someone with a, yeah, I'm just so bad at judging this, but not for someone who's uncomfortable with, oh, yeah, of course, in surgeries.
12:07
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to like flat lunch, surgeries.
12:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, just so fair warning there.
12:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
12:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously written and directed by Camo de Otoro based on the book by Mary Shelley and based on the 1930s Universal Monster adaptations and based on definitely pulls from a bunch of others since, you know, and the entirety of romantic 19th century literature.
12:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is really, this is a, it's, it's a film about this story, but it's also a film about
12:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, you come out to explain now, to me.
12:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I suppose it's my whole thing about adaptations of adaptations and how this is like Guillermo del Toro, he's in conversation with the original book and with the, you know, the Universal Monsters movies, but he's just also in conversation with the entire history of film making of transposing this story to screen.
13:08
[SPEAKER_02]: been slating this story to screen anyway.
13:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So he had help with this from notably cinematographer Dan Lauston, who is a frequent geomaldotorial collaborator.
13:20
[SPEAKER_02]: He's also known for films like Silent Hill, the Gorge, John Wick, two through four, et cetera.
13:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I say which will about the Gorge, but it's gorgeous.
13:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, it is.
13:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
13:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
13:32
[SPEAKER_02]: He's gotten to Oscar nomination so far for the shape of water and Nightmare Alley.
13:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and yeah, this is, where did you think of the cinematography overall?
13:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's, it's up there with sinners for sure.
13:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think it's some of the best from this year.
13:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's on the short list for the Oscars for cinematography.
13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's I think that the main commentations going to be between one battle after another in centers like in most categories.
14:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
14:06
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it could get an nomination.
14:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think some is should win, but you know.
14:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have to say about one battle after you like you and I are both team sinners.
14:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We know that But I've to say about one battle after another It's going cinematography is my favorite part.
14:23
[SPEAKER_02]: But sinners like that's immediately would hope to mean to the first half of sinners before it gets wild Right, so Yeah, both were they both very worthy, but I don't know three or three are worthy.
14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: All three are worthy.
14:36
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
14:36
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
14:37
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just the other two
14:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we'll talk about some of the other words, I think, I think Frankenstein's going to do well at an award season.
14:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the thing that will hold me back from saying Frankenstein is because this is not entirely meal.
14:55
[SPEAKER_00]: The setting or the, you know, just the, the backdrop is not new.
15:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that I haven't experienced before.
15:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't experienced how gorgeous it is, but it's not something that I haven't experienced before like, you know, the setting.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's what would put sinners to me on top of.
15:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
15:18
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
15:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, yeah.
15:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, I think when it comes to the like cinematography, I think sinners, I honestly think one about often that's going to win cinematography and I'm okay with it.
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I think sinners is going to win a lot of other categories.
15:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that Frankenstein is going to win in costumes.
15:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I just the, so I have to shout out Kate Holly is the costume designer.
15:47
[SPEAKER_02]: She also worked on Crimson Peak, which you can clearly see here and Pacific Rim and basically, you know, it's,
15:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It is her and El Toro working in combination and she also works very closely with the production designer, Tamara Deviral, and the set decorator, Shen Vio.
16:10
[SPEAKER_02]: She goes on the set and takes things and then incorporates them in the costume she's making so that it all just fits together so
16:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I don't want any black victory in costumes.
16:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I want something black, black and colorful.
16:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
16:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
16:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you ever saw there's these movies that were made, especially in like the 70s, the Hammer Horror movies.
16:37
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a Frankenstein series, but the Dracula series is the most famous one.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't want black.
16:43
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
17:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I know there's a black constraint.
17:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't.
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I just learned from it exists.
17:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me a few years ago.
17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I didn't know it existed.
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and then a friend of mine told me about it a few years ago, but I haven't been able to see it.
17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is my list of things that I must watch before I pass.
17:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
17:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
17:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I told my ultimate Frankenstein list.
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I just added it recently.
17:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have to check it out.
17:23
[SPEAKER_02]: But you have it in no hammer hard.
17:25
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like known for these.
17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Go said, blah, blah, blah.
17:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Hammer-Harr is known for these intensely saturated colors with, like, lavish scenery, even though the movies were made on the cheap.
17:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was a definite influence.
17:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, she said for Victor, he had Bohemian influences, like how he, yeah, he looked like a poet scientist, basically.
17:55
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think of Elizabeth's costumes?
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, it was, it was amazing, just, I mean, I think they were the standouts.
18:07
[SPEAKER_00]: just first the first off I thought of how did people dress like this in the first place.
18:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the time and quite like that.
18:19
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, just in general, that's the color's mostly, but just the way that the clothing was made.
18:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the court's name in.
18:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's how did women subject themselves?
18:32
[SPEAKER_00]: day to day every day, you know, with this constraint.
18:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we still do crazy stuff every day.
18:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're absolutely right.
18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but it was just to, that's the first thing that I thought of.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, ah, Luigi's like, this is fucking torture.
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, this is, this is torture.
18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then, you know, like you said, just,
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: the vibrancy of the colors that she wore just against the backdrops that they had her in just amazing, this amazing visually stunning.
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And real quick, real quick, the hammer horror.
19:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I've seen them, the Christopher Lee Dracula.
19:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I've seen them.
19:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that, yeah, that's one of them.
19:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: 100 times.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen the Christopher Lee's.
19:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there was a rare wolf one, if I can remember, from like that same sort of universe.
19:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I've seen these things.
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very familiar with them.
19:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
19:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
19:44
[SPEAKER_02]: The Dracula ones are definitely the most famous ones.
19:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
19:49
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah.
19:50
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that color palette definitely comes in here.
19:53
[SPEAKER_02]: But yet so Kate Holly said we minor spoiler we learned that this version of Elizabeth is really into bugs.
20:00
[SPEAKER_02]: She's into studying them.
20:01
[SPEAKER_02]: So this was supposed to reflect her personality that she's this
20:10
[SPEAKER_02]: evocative of beetles and beetles wings, so that makes me think of him one scene where she has these feathers that are sort of like antennae over her face.
20:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
20:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's got these almost clashing jewel colors, and like I think of when she goes at one point to the tower, she's wearing this teal veil.
20:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And it reminds me also if I think the most dramatic and this is I'll shut up about the costumes after this.
20:38
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think the most dramatic moment was when Frankenstein's mother at the very beginning of the movie she's standing on the steps and she has that red veil blowing in the wind.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh.
20:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
20:51
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope Kate Hawley, this would be her first Oscar nomination.
20:56
[SPEAKER_02]: She more than deserves it.
20:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope she gets the win.
20:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm rooting for Frankenstein
21:02
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's also in the running for the music by Alexandra Displatt, who's already one to Academy Awards for Grand Buddha Pest Hotel in shape of water.
21:12
[SPEAKER_02]: He collaborates with Wes Anderson and Yamuna Dutora a lot, and lots of other people.
21:17
[SPEAKER_02]: He's been nominated lots of times.
21:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and the other awards, it's up for it's definitely a best picture, contender.
21:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, we'll see, it could be, there's a good chance it's going to make the, everyone's predicting it right now for the final 10, maybe it won't, uh, but it probably will.
21:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And Del Toro also is being predicted as a director, um, awardee who played the monster.
21:42
[SPEAKER_02]: He's getting a lot of love, obviously, um, the creature, sorry.
21:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it could, it could be adapted screenplay, of course, and almost definitely it's going to be production design and costumes.
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It has been shortlisted since the shortlist came out, only certain categories are shortlisted, but it remains in the semi-finals for casting overall.
22:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the new category.
22:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Cinematography, makeup and hair, score, sound, and VFX.
22:11
[SPEAKER_02]: and there's a documentary, a 45 minute documentary on Netflix called Frankenstein, the Anatomy lesson, if you want.
22:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of like their pitch to win those awards, but it goes into a lot of the details about costumes, make up locations, set design, and editing.
22:27
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, were you excited to see any of the cast in particular?
22:36
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
22:37
[SPEAKER_00]: No, not no person favorite.
22:40
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I didn't go into the movie saying to myself, I can't wait to see such and such.
22:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I went into the movie saying to myself, I can't wait to watch this dead daughter movie.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: you know.
22:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
22:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't about the director than like, yeah, yeah.
22:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, obviously, I would have watched it with any cast, but I was, um, I was excited by the casting in general.
23:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I like Oscar Isaaco for all.
23:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Jacob O'Leardy was apparently a last-minute replacement for Andrew Garfield, who had to drop out after the strikes because of filming complex.
23:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I can't imagine it having been the other way, I like Andrew Garfield.
23:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But Jacob O'Leardy was so perfect in this role.
23:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love me a goth from, you know, like the Thai West movies and all that.
23:31
[SPEAKER_02]: She's a hard queen, and this was great to see her play a double role here.
23:37
[SPEAKER_02]: and Kristoff Waltz.
23:39
[SPEAKER_02]: This is also the second time he plays the Van Helsing character in Dracula.
23:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I love Taylor that came out this year too.
23:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, Charles Dance and Lars Nicholson, even the minor characters were just stupidistic.
23:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't like I went in for them, but it was a pleasant surprise.
23:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Surprise.
23:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And the movie, it was released at the Venice International Film Festival.
24:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It got mixed reviews there, so that was like people were hating on it at first almost.
24:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there was this sort of backlash and then it got released in the US and elsewhere and everyone immediately loved it.
24:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's got, you know, all of it's like, for instance, on Rotten Tomatoes 85% of critics gave it a positive rating and 94% of audience.
24:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's pretty.
24:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:29
[SPEAKER_02]: pretty on the nose.
24:30
[SPEAKER_02]: What would you say to people who are debating whether or not to watch it or to listen on?
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, um, first of all, you should definitely listen on because Alicia has, you know, great, um, views on things.
24:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right, but before or after watching, um, you should definitely watch the film.
24:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You should definitely watch the film.
24:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you know the story, um, you're intimately familiar with the story.
25:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's still different enough for you to be able to say, oh, oh, okay.
25:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't see that You know, that's a change And enjoy the change that was made.
25:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I think again I wish I had seen it in the theater, but it's still a great viewing experience at home So definitely it should be something that you watch Yeah
25:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, it's on Netflix right now so you can just like pause this episode and watch it tonight and listen to the rest.
25:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It's there's not much we can spoil except that we said there are changes.
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's it's worth your time.
25:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's a long film, but it's an epic one buckle in, you know, popcorn, glass wine, whatever your thing is.
25:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but we're going to take a break now and on the other side we are going to get into full spoilers.
25:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to talk all about those changes.
25:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Can't wait.
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: See you in a sec.
26:16
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, here's the hop-un question for you.
26:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So we talked about this being Del Toro's greatest passion project.
26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Jacob I'll already said in an interview that Del Toro sees the creature as a Jesus figure.
26:28
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
26:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you see that?
26:29
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you don't see the parallels?
26:31
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
26:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been thinking about it ever since, and I totally see it.
26:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You see it?
26:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like not in this case.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The first ever in, I don't see it.
26:40
[SPEAKER_00]: On the first reflection, no.
26:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's not like he's a savior of humanity, but then you're like, well, what if he was, but
26:52
[SPEAKER_02]: What if that was the next movie.
26:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
26:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that sort of defeats the purpose of the original novel.
26:59
[SPEAKER_02]: But I suppose what he means by that is that he is someone who was brought onto this earth to suffer for the sins of humanity in this case.
27:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose represented by Victor.
27:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and then, yeah, but he can't be, he has to, yeah, he lives on eternally with the suffering, like the whole speech at the end.
27:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see what he was going for.
27:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
27:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
27:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't, I don't see it.
27:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have, I mean, I would love to hear why the Torah thinks this.
27:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because yeah, this is coming from not him but Jacob the Lord he said something could be lost in translation to definitely and I would love to for him to expand on that if possible, but just again on first reflection no I don't I don't see any connection or allegory between the creature and Jesus.
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, how life was lived and what life was being lived for, I don't see a connection there, right the purpose of it, that's a good point right so somebody but if somebody does see it, please let us know let me know what you think I'm not seeing
28:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Or if you found an interview where Del Toro talks about this more, or talks about this at all, then let us know, send it in.
28:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
28:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we have our discord link in the link to the show notes, and also the email as well, horror at thelarhounds.com.
28:43
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so Del Toro, this part is easier to see.
28:47
[SPEAKER_02]: He also says it's a film about generational pain.
28:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
28:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
28:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We see that.
28:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We see that.
28:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We see.
28:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We see Frankenstein's father to him and then to his creation, passing on the same unfortunate lessons.
29:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I was surprised there's a character from the books that doesn't make it into many of the adaptations and I felt certain that Del Toro was going to include her for various reasons, but it's a character named Justin and so when I first watched it, I was
29:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can see it's, I've heard now me a goff saying interviews that she was hired to play three characters and one of them was Justin, because she played the mother and she played Elizabeth.
29:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Justin was cut because, because Del Toro was focusing the film more, which okay.
29:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can understand that.
29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what haven't watched it, I can see why it is no Justin.
29:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's still sprawling product.
30:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I can see why it was kept very personal.
30:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
30:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I used to you.
30:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
30:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know at one point Del Toro even wanted to do maybe like a trilogy of films, but that's obviously not what happened.
30:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then you have to cut some darlings and focus what is what is the point that you're going for.
30:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, like you said, it's something more personal,
30:29
[SPEAKER_02]: himself and his father and his son and that's yeah where he was speaking from right now.
30:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into the first part and I'm thinking for these synopsis, I'll read the green part and you read the red part.
30:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
30:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so let's open with the prelude, angry in the Arctic, I'm calling it.
30:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Somewhere in the Arctic, in 1857, a ship of Danish explorers is trapped frozen in the ice.
30:58
[SPEAKER_02]: The sailors petition their captain to free their vessel and then turn back south to safety.
31:03
[SPEAKER_02]: But captain Anderson wants to press on to become the first to reach the North Pole.
31:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, in the distance, there is an explosion on the ice.
31:11
[SPEAKER_00]: The captain and a team discovered an injured man, Victor Frankenstein, in his remaining sled dogs.
31:18
[SPEAKER_00]: As Anderson installs the man in his quarters, another man, a creature, really, leaps onto the deck of the ship in a rampage, killing six of the crew before they are able to subdue him and throw him into the frozen waters where he has presumed dead.
31:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Victor insists that the creature cannot be killed and to explain he begins to tell his tale.
31:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So the boat was completely a real boat that was constructed for this and outside, but I thought the sky, like at first I was like, is this small guy?
31:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it might be a CGI, like they enhanced the sky.
32:00
[SPEAKER_02]: There was something unnatural about it.
32:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I like that they don't, I mean if this is all meant to be an over-the-top fairy tale, you're right, all right
32:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Although for realism, I do appreciate that they for once had the sailors like speaking Danish.
32:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, not that they were Danish in the book, but just that, you know, it goes back to the whole show gun thing.
32:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if there's supposed to be speaking Dutch, get them to speak Dutch, you know, if they're supposed to be speaking Portuguese, um, let's be out to these.
32:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
32:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
32:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I like the whole, you know, going back to the costume thing and then set decoration everything apparently it was about white represents death in many cultures.
32:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're like, let's paint all of the sailors in white and let the landscape in white.
32:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's cool, like this is stabling, this, first of all, this opening with the Arctic, like the framing structure doesn't make it into a lot of adaptations, although it's in the book.
33:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's glad to see it, but it's fun to watch this in sort of like what kind of adaptation in it is it, you know, like which tropes did or did not carry over from whatever.
33:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, Frankenstein has a prosthetic leg, that's new.
33:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the creature takes bullets and keeps going, okay.
33:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I know where that comes from.
33:27
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's funny like the sailors shoot him and then throw him in the water and they're like the bullets won't stop him.
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But the water will stop him, you know what I mean?
33:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it was interesting to see this part of them.
33:50
[SPEAKER_02]: They did include a few more scenes of this part, intercut into the rest of the narrative, instead of just making it strictly like the beginning and the end, put, oh, in the middle, of course, because Frankenstein is show up.
34:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but we also saw established that the themes of this whole thing, you know, where
34:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I talked about in a will shift dust subscriber episode about how the book uses the rhyme of the ancient mariner, which is an old Samuel Coleridge poem story about an old man who corners a wedding guest and is like, listen to my tale and the wedding guest is like, but I'm supposed to be actually this is pretty interesting, keep going.
34:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And then ends up the whole tale is a warning about don't do
34:38
[SPEAKER_02]: this thing that I have done wrong don't repeat my mistakes and it's man is cursed to tell this tale over and over again.
34:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's kind of the framing of Frankenstein is Frankenstein comes to the sea captain who wants to go to the north.
34:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, once to be the first to reach the north pole and he says, don't make the mistake of having the same hubris as me, no when you're
35:05
[SPEAKER_02]: You must love it because it's anti-science.
35:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just kidding.
35:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so cool.
35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know how is that the edge of Microsoft?
35:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You're ready to go magic.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I was waiting for a spell to come out.
35:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Something.
35:24
[SPEAKER_02]: No, for anyone who doesn't know John, he's not anti-science.
35:27
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just pro-magic.
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Pro-magic.
35:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Kick Rocksites.
35:34
[SPEAKER_02]: But that does play into this quote, the Victor says to the captain, some of what I tell you is fact, some of it is not, but it is all true.
35:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that means.
35:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's all true from his perspective, right?
35:51
[SPEAKER_00]: This is his tale.
35:52
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how he sees it.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And he knows that, you know, some of it is his own mind embellishing or omitting facts, but that's his truth.
36:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We tell all stories, right, and we can experience the same thing you and I, when I tell it, it's a different story than when you tell it, who's right, who's wrong?
36:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what Victor's saying there.
36:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
36:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We reshape our memories from a psychological perspective.
36:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We reshape our memories basically every time we access them.
36:35
[SPEAKER_02]: We insert little other details perhaps or, you know, corrupt happens some way.
36:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, we overestimate the fidelity of our memories for sure.
36:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, considering the creature himself shows up and is, indeed, you know, a walking reconstructed corpse, like which part is not true.
37:01
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
37:01
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
37:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
37:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the parts where Elizabeth flirts with Victor, because that's what he wanted to be true.
37:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's what he wanted, but maybe how he even sees himself.
37:17
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
37:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's get into them.
37:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just the prelude.
37:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get into the first hole.
37:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's more than the first half, honestly, fixer's tail.
37:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is the.
37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: the meat of the story really yeah yeah well it's set it up on my favorite is always the creatures tale but uh you can't get to the creatures tale without victor without the victor just as he would want so this is a longer section we're going to recap it all for you in case you haven't watched or in case you want a little reminder of uh what we're going to be discussing and we'll point out some details as we go uh starting with
37:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Victor grew up in Switzerland, the son of Baron Leopold Frankenstein and French-speaking Eris named Claire.
38:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Victor's parents were not a love match and Victor preferred when his father was away, which he frequently was.
38:10
[SPEAKER_02]: When Baron Frankenstein was at home, he would fight with Victor's mother and put Victor through grueling science lessons where mistakes, or even delayed answers were physically punished.
38:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Clare dies in Chauberth, leaving Victor in his new infant brother William Alonit with their father, and inspiring Victor's future quest to conquer Death.
38:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Years later, after fires and revotes on their mother's mantations caused the family's holding to Dwindle, to just one lavish estate.
38:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The boys are sent away from even that when their father dies, young William to Vienna to live with family, older Victor to London than Edinburgh to study.
38:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Victor consumes with learning the secret of creating life is expelled from school after a fiery demonstration in which he revives half a corpse, but he has attracted a wealthy patron.
39:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Heinrich Harlander, who was sent there by Victor's own brother William, who is engaged to Harlander's niece Elizabeth.
39:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Victor reluctantly agrees to let him have input in the project, in turn, for unlimited funding.
39:15
[SPEAKER_02]: However, when Victor distracted by falling in love with his brother's fiancé, takes too long, the secretly dying, harlander threatens to withdraw his support.
39:26
[SPEAKER_00]: When the night comes, when Victor will re-animate the corpse, Hollander reveals that he has advanced syphilis and is near death.
39:34
[SPEAKER_00]: He acts to have his brain placed in the new creature's body, but instead falls to his death, Victor completes the reanimation, and thinks it's a failure.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Only to wake up to find the very alive creature, standing over his bed.
39:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Excitedly Victor begins to try to educate his new spawn, chaining him in the cellar, and grown frustrated when the future doesn't respond to his authoritarian teaching style.
40:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Elizabeth and William visit the tower looking for Elizabeth's uncle, who's of death, Victor at first heights, meeting the creature Elizabeth is entranced, and using a much gentler teaching method, she quickly teaches him his second word, her name.
40:17
[SPEAKER_02]: But now the creature will no longer accept Victor's violent treatment and lunges at him for his cruelty.
40:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So Victor reveals Harlander's death blaming it on the creature and sends William and Elizabeth away so that he can burn down his lab with the creature inside.
40:32
[SPEAKER_00]: There he was alive.
40:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it was on the nose, but the meaning of the name Victor was rightfully pointed out and I think that ties into just very subtly mentioned backstory that I know that you must have had feelings about about the fires and
41:05
[SPEAKER_02]: They were social justice warriors, basically, but let me just read a quick quote from a New Yorker article from 2018, they summarized their feelings about this, well, for abolitionists in England, the Haitian Revolution, along with continued slavery billions in Jamaica and other West Indian sugar islands, raised deeper and harder questions about liberty and equality than the revolution in France had since they involved in inquiry into the idea of racial
41:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Godwin and Mollstonecraft, which are Mary Shelley's parents, had been abolitionists as we're both Percy and Mary Shelley themselves who, for instance, refused each sugar because of how it was produced.
41:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Although Britain and the United States enacted laws abolishing the importation of slaves in 1807 that abate of a slavery in Britain's territories continued through the decision
42:00
[SPEAKER_02]: both Shelley's closely followed this debate and in the years before and during the composition of Frankenstein they together read several books about Africa and the West Indies.
42:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So, were you surprised about this connection popping up?
42:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I was.
42:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't expect a throw into the hasten revolution.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I was not expecting it and was presently surprised and very happy that they threw that into the film to show you know just how their lifestyle was funded and the repercussions of that lifestyle no longer being available on their family because that's when it went downhill
42:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
42:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I've to say that the sugar the not eating sugar because of how it was produced.
43:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't realize that was a thing until Sanditon is a TV show on PBS made from an unfinished Jane Austen novel, which involves a character who is of West Indies origin and she starts a strike against the sugar amongst.
43:19
[SPEAKER_02]: the people of this town of Sanitin.
43:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was the first time I really thought about a realized that, but it's not surprising.
43:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose just knowing that Mary and Percy were always involved in a especially Mary's parents were always involved in these sort of causes.
43:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Like Mary's mother moved to Paris in the middle of the French Revolution.
43:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what are you doing lately?
43:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, what do you think, okay, I asked you about the, the Jesus interpretation, the New Yorker article that I quoted there interpretation of the novel is that the, uh, part of the, um, meaning of the creature is to represent an enslaved man.
44:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Huh.
44:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard that argued before, and no, I've never, yeah, I've never agreed with that.
44:17
[SPEAKER_00]: with their viewpoint.
44:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Because to me, to argue that the creature was an enslaved human, who would be to say that enslaved humans started from a place of nothing.
44:33
[SPEAKER_02]: We're created, right?
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: like their consciousness was not there prior to the machinations of this person, it was, you know, white Peter, Christians or whatever.
44:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've never subscribed to that theory.
44:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:54
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it doesn't sit well with me either for similar reasons, even less well than the
45:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to just don't get this one, I just thoroughly don't, I am excuse me.
45:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:08
[SPEAKER_00]: This one I just thoroughly don't agree with.
45:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, you know, I people who are interested in the angle about Mary as the monster that is something that I share and I from every single side if I podcast ever talked about extensively in the will shift dust episode about the 30s movies.
45:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So check that out there, but I think there's more to that than to either of these.
45:34
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, of course, I think yeah, she is just in general.
45:38
[SPEAKER_02]: it's a reflection of what she sees in society and the things that her parents thought are growing up.
45:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of parents, so we have here Mia Goth playing Frankenstein's mother who's they changed his parents names in this version.
45:59
[SPEAKER_02]: What's her name is Claire here, which is interesting because it's Claire.
46:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Claire was Mary Shelley's sister, so that's, but I guess they wanted her to be, you know, have a French name, obviously, so that they could make those Haitian plantation links more explicit.
46:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, another thing they made more explicit is, you know, I talked extensively about the colorism in the different versions of Frankenstein, where like Mary, or sorry, Elizabeth actually was in the first version, had dark hair and eyes.
46:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the second version, she was the perfect angel with blonde hair and blue eyes.
46:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's interesting that Victor thinks his father despises him because of his and his mother's darker coloring, which is wild.
46:51
[SPEAKER_02]: which is wild, yeah.
46:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
46:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, his father is a Lannister.
46:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So he said to call that up.
46:59
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's, oh, by the way, Charles Dance also played the father in the 2015 Victor Frankenstein, the one with Den O'Radcliffe and James McAvoy, which I actually really like that one.
47:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very different, wildly different, but they really like it.
47:15
[SPEAKER_02]: But Den O'Radcliffe, that's funny.
47:15
[SPEAKER_02]: He played the same role again here.
47:20
[SPEAKER_02]: mean version of of Victor's father, where in the novel he is a much more loving presence and here it's it's about like the father many way I think represents society and how Victor shaped by his by his society of being his father.
47:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, you know, he, the author really wants us to see Victor in the light of his circumstance.
47:54
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not nature.
47:56
[SPEAKER_00]: This is actually nurture.
47:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
47:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that, Victor wasn't born to be this, Victor was raised to be this way.
48:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the argument that the film is posing.
48:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Is the creature creature because of just the happenstance of how it came to be, or because of how it was shown.
48:25
[SPEAKER_00]: what was imprinted upon the creature at the moment that consciousness, you know, emerged.
48:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's very, to me, it's very, this is very nature versus nature.
48:38
[SPEAKER_00]: This is very the science of who we are and why we are them.
48:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So in some ways, I guess I would say, like I'm trying to think about how the two different parents fit into this, you know, and I suppose, obviously the mother is nurture, Claire's nurture.
48:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And then...
49:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But so is the father.
49:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's like, this is how he's raising your, you know, he's raised in this way after his mother passes and even before his mother's passes, his father is very, you know, draconian with him.
49:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very right, right, stirring and very unloving in a way.
49:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
49:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I'm saying is juxtaposed with, you know, not nurture as an overall
49:30
[SPEAKER_02]: and the father is more about like, okay, his father Leo pulled in this version says there is no spirit in tissue, there is no emotion in muscle.
49:42
[SPEAKER_02]: This in like the physical punishment and everything, obviously, this is what we see Victor playing forward as he trains the creature.
49:49
[SPEAKER_02]: He can't think of the creature as having a soul because there's no spirit in tissue, no emotion in muscle.
49:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And
49:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, physical punishment is is so I feel like there's like an intellectualism like a cold intellectualism versus Yes, the science of reasoning.
50:04
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the age of reason.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I will we're not beholding our emotions.
50:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll be all in the fact Right whereas reality needs both the things that we can prove Yeah, not not the things that are unseen.
50:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We only Contrast in the things that we can see
50:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
50:25
[SPEAKER_00]: What you see is all that we have and you need to make your peace that if you're going to be a great person, a great man in our world, that these things are just tools.
50:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We have no time for tears and hugs and kisses.
50:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what his father represents.
50:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's interesting, though, also, in terms of the nature versus nurture question that you were saying earlier, is that this is something that's addressed slightly differently in the two versions of Frankenstein novel, so it's the 1818 version where the father is the first to teach Victor these sciences like in this movie, and the idea there is kind of more that evils taught at home.
51:18
[SPEAKER_02]: versus in the 1831 version of the novel, Victor starts to learn about this stuff outside the family.
51:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, oh, it's outside corruption influences.
51:29
[SPEAKER_02]: But here it's very much, yeah, evil is inside at home.
51:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the first at home that you'd learn these things, right?
51:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
51:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you'd bring them out into the world.
51:38
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think about the whole scene where Leopold kind of forces Claire to eat this bread stopping with blood because she's pregnant?
51:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the next scene basically we see her have a, you know, die in childbirth.
51:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think we're supposed to read any connection between the two and together?
51:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
52:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt it was, you know,
52:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he has his beliefs and he's very dogmatic about his beliefs and no one who is of a lower station can tell him that his beliefs are wrong.
52:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So if he tells you that even this blood-so-piece of bread is for your health and benefit,
52:39
[SPEAKER_00]: A person who is not as learned as he is can say to dissuade him from that fact and you're just going to have to eat it.
52:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
52:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if it feels wrong for your body.
52:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you know it's wrong for your body and the next scene is her death, it can't be.
53:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
53:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like the blood is a sort of, it's not like he was physically abusing her, but I think the bloody bread does represent the abuse that he was passing on to her every time he was with her basically.
53:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
53:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
53:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And speaking of liquids, did you notice Victor was an absolute milk fiend throughout the movie?
53:31
[SPEAKER_02]: He was drinking milk left and right like he was homelander from the boys.
53:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I guess the like do you think there's any interpretation other than mommy issues?
53:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
53:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought that was his own peculiarity.
53:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is a very peculiar precedent.
53:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he stuck on Mother's book.
53:59
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that say about him?
54:01
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that say about him?
54:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know?
54:06
[SPEAKER_02]: He's also, by the way, like, he seems to be an atheist, this version of Victor, at least at first, and which is interesting because Percy Shelley, Mary Shelley's husband before they ever even met with kicked out of college for being an atheist and writing about it and sent him out of poem and sent it to all the deans.
54:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, about how they were wrong and everyone should be atheist and they're like, oh, we're going to kick you out, which I'll get we'll talk about the demonstration and a bit, but I feel like both of these things are referring back to that, but Victor says,
54:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And it does like, you know, I said the first, I said that the part about learning evil at home, remind me of the first edition, the part about like this being a story about blasphemy, reminds me of the later edition.
55:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think that that's true, that Victor, that this is a story about Victor being a blasphemer?
55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I think yes, in a way, I think this is a story about the rejection of the church.
55:18
[SPEAKER_00]: of religion, you know, because this is a, this is a time where things were undoubtedly questioned, right, more, even more so than the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries, right.
55:40
[SPEAKER_00]: 19th century is the time when people are questioning the very foundations of what had been thought to be, you know,
55:52
[SPEAKER_00]: the way that God intended the world to be for hundreds of years, right?
55:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You have these revolutions at the end of the 18th century that ended, you know, social order, scientific breakthroughs occurring.
56:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think this is an outward rejection of Bible dumping.
56:17
[SPEAKER_00]: really have the ability in the world, like we're keeping it separate from science.
56:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like science is his own thing, and God has no place in a lab.
56:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So you think we should take, where Victor says a face value, or do you think we should say, he's being heuristic and wrong?
56:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Both.
56:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
56:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Both.
56:41
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think of the demonstration scene?
56:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I thought it was, there's a lot of truth to that, you know, being in that time period and trying to say to folks like what you've thought of as impossible is actually possible in the reason you thought it impossible is actually bullshit.
57:07
[SPEAKER_00]: How would that be received even today?
57:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the half corpse that was a real practical puppet.
57:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That was great.
57:20
[SPEAKER_02]: They had like two live puppeteers operating it and like even caught the ball, you know, all that stuff.
57:26
[SPEAKER_00]: That was yeah.
57:27
[SPEAKER_00]: That was so cool.
57:28
[UNKNOWN]: Amazing.
57:29
[SPEAKER_00]: That was an amazing visual.
57:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
57:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And we learned about the battery.
57:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see the fear and the eyes of the people in the room.
57:40
[SPEAKER_00]: especially the people in charge.
57:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You can see the fear in there.
57:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what the fuck?
57:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
57:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Except Tarlander who sees.
57:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, the possibilities of extending his own life.
57:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, the rest of the room, who the people who weren't sharing him on, they're like, oh, wait a minute.
58:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait a minute.
58:03
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no.
58:04
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
58:05
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't have this.
58:07
[SPEAKER_00]: What if he's right?
58:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to throw 500 years of teaching of research, what we believe to be the ways of the world out the window.
58:20
[SPEAKER_00]: We cannot have that.
58:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You can see in their eyes these thoughts, at least to me, I saw it.
58:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
58:28
[SPEAKER_02]: No, and it does remind me of the whole Percy Shelley thing where, you know, he was called to answer for his atheism and then kicked out because I think, same like, it's scared them.
58:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It's scared them.
58:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
58:42
[SPEAKER_02]: About Harlander.
58:45
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets a very, there are some on-the-nose references to romantic stuff like, for instance, the subtitle of the book is, you know, it's called Frankenstein or a modern permedious, because for some reason, every book back then was titled twice, but permedious for anyone who's trying to remember which one permedious is, permedious is the Titan who took fire from the gods and gave it to humans.
59:12
[SPEAKER_02]: so that we could you know have fire and then he was punished for that by Zeus by having an eagle eat his liver every day and every day the river returns to a mountain right chain to a mountain the delivery grows and he has to he's tortured with this uh so he's
59:29
[SPEAKER_02]: He does, he takes something that belongs to the gods, gives it to humanity and is punished for it, basically.
59:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what the parallel is with Victor Frankenstein in this.
59:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He's and then Harlander, just in case you missed it, says, can you contain your fire, Prometheus, or are you going to burn your hands before delivering it?
59:52
[SPEAKER_02]: which I love the reference, but also the implication that Victor is too impatient, which is ironic and considering that Harlander wants me to speed up later because he's dying but anyway.
1:00:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, there were a lot of on-the-nose references in the original novel too, so I don't mind that at all.
1:00:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think
1:00:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope that people hear that and because we're able to watch this movie at home on Netflix already, I hope that people take their time with it and pause over references like that and what they might mean.
1:00:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's for me, that's what makes me really love this movie.
1:00:37
[SPEAKER_02]: dissecting it.
1:00:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's a great watch experience, but then when you pick apart all the pieces and see how detailed each individual line or shot or just all these things are, that's why I think this is where they just stand amongst the best films of the year, like sinners.
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Just in case we didn't mention, we like sinners.
1:01:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sinners.
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Best film of the year.
1:01:05
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, this is also one of the best films of the year for that reason.
1:01:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, but not better than others.
1:01:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Didn't claim it.
1:01:19
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, Harlan or he's a new character for this.
1:01:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And so his whole his illness is new too.
1:01:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And he got me going down like a deep dive about why would you treat syphilis with mercury?
1:01:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Well.
1:01:32
[SPEAKER_02]: When did you figure out that he might be dying when he said
1:01:36
[SPEAKER_00]: when he said.
1:01:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, same, same, same.
1:01:39
[SPEAKER_02]: But then when I went back and watched again, I noticed when he, there's a scene where Victor comes in and he's taking pictures of a model.
1:01:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He's sleeping with obviously because she calls him Kiki.
1:01:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And he calls photography a momento mori.
1:01:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And he does literally have like a skull pose in the picture and everything.
1:02:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:02:02
[SPEAKER_02]: But I realized after I'm like, Oh, this is like he wants to leave photography behind as the momento.
1:02:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's his momento mori.
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_02]: He knows he's dying and also he's leaving it behind as a sort of like relic of his life.
1:02:17
[SPEAKER_02]: even though he's mostly an arm's dealer.
1:02:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that part of his man of contrast.
1:02:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but he yeah, he seems soaks in death.
1:02:29
[SPEAKER_02]: This character looks like it.
1:02:32
[SPEAKER_02]: When I watched it the second time, I'm like, oh, maybe I should have guessed, but I did not guess.
1:02:37
[SPEAKER_02]: because it's new.
1:02:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we find out, yeah, he dabbled in surgery and, you know, he's a medical condition, collection with the lymphatic system, which he calls a secret circulatory system.
1:02:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this might be the first that I saw, at least in this way, or maybe even at all, attempt to explain, you know, it comes from the 30s films, this idea of Frankenstein being immortal.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_02]: But now, like they actually attempt to use science to explain the eternally pumping heart.
1:03:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know magic.
1:03:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But.
1:03:11
[UNKNOWN]: Oh.
1:03:12
[SPEAKER_02]: But I appreciate that they're saying, basically, that the lymphatic system is what they're suggesting is a secret to the eternally pumping heart, like a gestionate, with his special battery inside, with his magic magic battery, he has a magic batteries, which is like, I don't know, Tesla technology or something, why else?
1:03:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's, you know, Harlander, obviously he hopes for that eternally pumping heart because he has to fill us, which is, do you have you ever met anyone who had it?
1:03:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I work in public health.
1:03:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right, okay.
1:03:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes.
1:03:54
[SPEAKER_00]: For familiar with the disease and disease progression.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to?
1:04:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to?
1:04:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to?
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Please, I want to hear what you say.
1:04:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you want to, I, I just copied from pharmaceutical digital and that's like a summary of the disease progression because it, it helps set where we see harlander in it.
1:04:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so it's a sexually transmitted disease caused by the bacterium trip.
1:04:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Namemia Paletti, only in his four stages, three of the four has manifestations on the skin.
1:04:28
[SPEAKER_00]: In the primary stage, painless ulcers or chancras appear on the genitals, and if allowed to progress into the secondary stage.
1:04:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Blotchy reds, rashes up here, usually under palms are the hands and soles of the feet.
1:04:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Occasionally, hairloids also develop at this stage.
1:04:44
[SPEAKER_00]: This is then followed by latent stage term, which suffers, have neither sign nor symptoms of the disease.
1:04:51
[SPEAKER_00]: This stage can last for years.
1:04:53
[SPEAKER_00]: During the tetra-ary stage, just as if lists, the skin, bones, internal ordinance, nervous system, and cardiovascular systems begin to beat.
1:05:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It reversibly damage patients are often ostracized from society and suffering from severe disfigurement.
1:05:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not true.
1:05:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Currently so.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Current, right?
1:05:12
[SPEAKER_02]: That's got to be modern day and modern.
1:05:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:05:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Because treatment is readily available and it really works and it's got.
1:05:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So what's the treatment look like now?
1:05:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you get a shot?
1:05:27
[SPEAKER_02]: that's okay.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a series.
1:05:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a really painful, huge needle.
1:05:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's probably the biggest needle that you can, that can be injected.
1:05:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Get a shot in the butt, come back, get another shot in the
1:05:57
[SPEAKER_02]: experience, it best waited.
1:05:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the first time I was in the needle for the the meds, I was just like, what the, like, really?
1:06:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it really is what we're doing.
1:06:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, my.
1:06:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:06:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is the thing is that the disease is treatable, but once you are treated,
1:06:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, again and again, but doesn't mean that you have an active infection, you will always test positive, but it doesn't mean that you have an active infection.
1:06:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I see.
1:06:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you know if you get it again?
1:06:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they check something called titers.
1:06:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And that will let you know the ratio, if the tighter ratio, um, if it's high enough
1:06:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
1:06:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
1:06:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
1:06:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, so it's definitely like most medical things has gotten much better.
1:07:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And there were just so many in the 19th century.
1:07:04
[SPEAKER_02]: There were so many treatments that just paid things worse.
1:07:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I talked about Byron and other episodes that talked about Byron dying from bloodletting because he had a fever and they're like, oh, we better get rid of that bad blood.
1:07:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, well, he actually needs it to get better.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_02]: and then for syphilis, they used mercury for medicine for centuries.
1:07:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And they would use mercury, ointments, and by the 16th centuries, they started using it to treat skin diseases.
1:07:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in the 19th century, they were treating syphilis and other STDs with mercury.
1:07:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And this would lead to basically your bodies are responding to a poison.
1:07:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So there'd be cramping and salivating and diarrhea and vomiting.
1:07:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the doctors would point to you vomiting and your guts out and say, oh, but that's how we know that it's working because they believed at the time that the body had literally four humors
1:08:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And disease was a result of humors being out of whack.
1:08:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically, when you took this mercury poison and it forced you to vomit out to your guts, you were actually getting out of the bad stuff, the same with the bloodletting, getting out the bad stuff.
1:08:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Only you're actually just killing yourself, unknowingly.
1:08:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, the treatment was killing their patients faster.
1:08:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, so that's what we see going on with Harlander.
1:08:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So it just really a new character and just a super, super tragic character.
1:08:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you have any more thoughts about Harlander?
1:08:46
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I just love what's in everything he's does, so when I say, when I said everyone really sunk their teeth into their character, he, you know, took a huge bite of their character and chewed that motherfucker.
1:09:08
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, I really enjoyed watching him on screen.
1:09:11
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah no he's he's a lot of fun and i just like the tragedy he funds he he makes his research happen and then he doesn't live long enough to benefit from him and then he when he falls his brains actually smash so even if he wanted to use it he couldn't this is like wow wow but he has this photography left behind
1:09:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the thing though, you know, a lot of science, a lot of what we know, the people who we know these things for maybe did not live a long enough to have those things benefit them.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
1:09:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, people who fun research and people who do research and have breakthroughs down oftentimes, you know, they're not around to see the fruits of their labor.
1:10:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, but doesn't mean, yeah, it doesn't mean that their labor wasn't significant or worth it.
1:10:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Although in this case, you know, I mean, they created a new life.
1:10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: They did do something.
1:10:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they did something, sure.
1:10:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Something that no one else had had done, right?
1:10:26
[SPEAKER_02]: No, absolutely.
1:10:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
1:10:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're going to dive more into that after a quick break.
1:10:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are back and continuing our conversation about Victor's tale.
1:10:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's jump over to William and Elizabeth.
1:10:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So William, always the brother in these stories, always gets killed.
1:11:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It is interesting, this is the oldest version of William, I think we've seen in any adaptation, normally he's like a young innocent kid who gets killed.
1:11:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But here, after Victor's talk about the darker coloring and stuff, it is interesting that William is blonde and cited as being more like their father.
1:11:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see anything but between him and their father at all, except that maybe
1:11:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I don't do you see it.
1:11:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, I think, yeah, I think there's not that William is like in Leopold, but I think Leopold obviously favors William because he is more outwardly, you know, classical European and look and temperament is also easier, I suppose.
1:11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's because of how William treats him.
1:11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this is nurture rather than nature to me.
1:12:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:12:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:12:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's probably true too.
1:12:04
[SPEAKER_02]: He does have the same parents at least, but um... No.
1:12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Allegedly.
1:12:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Very interesting.
1:12:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably the biggest change of this whole thing is that Elizabeth in this version is William's love, not Victor's love, Victor just covers her.
1:12:19
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
1:12:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's interesting because in some versions of the story like Elizabeth is sort of given to him,
1:12:27
[SPEAKER_02]: as a gift in the way that the creature wants to be given to him and here in this version, yeah, she's not coming to him at all.
1:12:40
[SPEAKER_02]: She's not his to have.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: He just wants her and can never have her because it's his brothers, bride.
1:12:50
[SPEAKER_02]: interesting, yeah, she's also blonde, uh, since the coloring seems to matter for this.
1:12:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, he, so he parallels the creature to a different way where rather than getting everything the creature can't have, he, I suppose it sets them up for that conclusion later, where he has more empathy for the creature at the final moments.
1:13:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I say, I just want to point out when I say, he looks European, I mean, that
1:13:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: What the period says that your skin looks like not sure sure why you know blue eyes and of that wearing was yeah they were potentially going for it.
1:13:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:13:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But work for that and Victor does not fit that description at all.
1:13:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
1:13:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that was done on purpose is we have to remember this is a Mexican director too.
1:13:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and he chose an actor to do this for a reason.
1:13:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, yeah, and he put it explicitly in the script too, so he's not, he's not playing coy with it.
1:13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you think about, though, the relationship with Elizabeth and William on the one hand and Elizabeth and Victor on the other?
1:14:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was just, you know, um, somebody wanting something that they, you don't can't have.
1:14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And being really messy about it.
1:14:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think, do you think she was into Victor?
1:14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I don't know.
1:14:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
1:14:26
[SPEAKER_00]: When I thought about it at first, I said yes.
1:14:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But then,
1:14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Thinking about it further, I'm not sure if she was interested in Victor or was she interested in Victor's mind.
1:14:47
[SPEAKER_00]: If that makes sense.
1:14:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
1:14:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:14:50
[SPEAKER_02]: She was excited by, by their verbal sparring matches.
1:14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:14:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:14:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was the interesting, their first conversation where she brings up, like, at first it's about him always wanting attention, and then she brings up, she's like, well, it's like, men in war has, like, weight what?
1:15:11
[SPEAKER_02]: and Harlander leaves William Ways.
1:15:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, we've all heard this whole thing before.
1:15:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, and she says, yeah, men dying far away in ugly ways for elevated ideas of honor, country, valor, well, men, while the men who provoked those tragedies remain at home.
1:15:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, all right, you say it, sister.
1:15:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Good night, Ron.
1:15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not wrong, you're not wrong.
1:15:34
[SPEAKER_02]: It is interesting, yeah, we have that whole thing and then the thing where there are some great scenes between them, where Victor pretends to be the priest and tries to get her to confess and she sees him and they go to lunch and he realizes, like he assumes that she's interested in romances, even after that whole talking about men and wars thing, he's still thinking of her as this frivolous woman.
1:16:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like he's flirting with an idea, not a real person, and I think she sees that that she, he doesn't really see her.
1:16:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:16:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the attraction is, is because she's engaged to William.
1:16:20
[SPEAKER_02]: You think?
1:16:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Because she's off limits?
1:16:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:16:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he likes her intelligence, but he just doesn't.
1:16:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, also, probably why Del Toro wanted me ago to play both this character and Victor's mother is to show that he sees something and her the reminds him of.
1:16:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of her, these, mm-hmm.
1:16:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, some real.
1:16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But we also have to remember that this is his version of things.
1:16:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm, exactly.
1:16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what's truth?
1:16:49
[SPEAKER_00]: What's fiction?
1:16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What's fact?
1:16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: What's not?
1:16:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
1:16:54
[SPEAKER_00]: What does he admit?
1:16:55
[SPEAKER_00]: What does he put in?
1:16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells us very beginning when he tells when he starts the story.
1:17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
1:17:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So, we have to think about, you know, what is he saying in Elizabeth that is actually there and what is he saying that he wanted to see?
1:17:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:17:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
1:17:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and she's meanwhile, like, what do you think of her quest?
1:17:20
[SPEAKER_02]: She says she's on a quest for, she had just recently gone to a comment, because she's on a quest for something more pure and marvelous.
1:17:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is why she's interested in the creature later.
1:17:36
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think of that as a motivating factor?
1:17:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And do you think, like, do you see something in a comment that's pure?
1:17:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you see something in the creature that's pure?
1:17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a lapse Catholic, so I can't say the affirmative to that question that you just ask about the sentence.
1:17:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not entirely on board with her saying, you know, she's seeking something pure and she went to a convict to find it.
1:18:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, to be fair, apparently she didn't find it there.
1:18:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you didn't find it, right?
1:18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But that was one of her stops of long hard work.
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I don't know what she's actually looked at for.
1:18:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I mean apparently what she's looking for she found it in the in the creatures and maybe it's like, maybe it's a lack of artifice, like just an honesty.
1:18:31
[SPEAKER_00]: A blank slate.
1:18:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like yeah, yeah, but maybe yeah, that's also, but maybe just also like a lack of a faking it or you know,
1:18:44
[SPEAKER_00]: something that, you know, you can dare eat dare dare, I think the both of them are using the creature.
1:18:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:18:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it sort of reminds me, there's a scene that's purposely included.
1:18:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're supposed to interpret something from it, where she and Victor capture a butterfly together.
1:19:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a butterfly is, of course, like often the symbol of innocence and freedom.
1:19:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And she says, now we have something in common, a prisoner.
1:19:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's sort of foreshadowing what happens with the creature in many ways, I think.
1:19:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, and it's interesting that she leaves the butterfly behind when she goes to Victor's lab, he confesses his feeling and she leaves it there.
1:19:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So she says she's chosen and then she's chosen.
1:19:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she, I think maybe what she sees in Victor and in trapping that butterfly in trapping the creature later, she is intrigued by him, but also disgusted by him and ultimately disgust winds.
1:19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I could buy that.
1:19:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So, what was your favorite set overall in the film?
1:19:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And why was it the lab?
1:19:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Just kidding, what was your favorite set?
1:19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the lab.
1:20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the lab, this, the pure, gothic mix of it, you know, it's just like, so spectacular in everything away.
1:20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, old, decrepit full of new technology, you know, a machine of going further than we've ever gone
1:20:32
[SPEAKER_00]: just really felt like a mad scientist is there.
1:20:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know.
1:20:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Just felt that way.
1:20:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what he is.
1:20:44
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a mad scientist.
1:20:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just loved every inch of the grandeur of the lab.
1:20:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you walk in, in,
1:20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: this huge opening skylight, just, yeah, just really, really nice.
1:21:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I liked it was, um, so this is apparently a delake near Vadoos, Switzerland, and it was a tower built for water filtration and irrigation.
1:21:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love this specificity of that and how it, you know, led to what you're talking about these features with that openness and the
1:21:23
[SPEAKER_02]: where the the creature that the whole tower is obviously inspired by the 30s movies, including the whole bit where he locks the creature in the basement, but here it's made fresh by the setting.
1:21:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Like yes, we see that old setting in this, but this is it's new and interesting.
1:21:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, this is also where we see like some explicit crimson peak references, like Guillermo d'Otoro literally wanted to reuse that big circular window from crimson peak.
1:21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think about Victor's red working gloves?
1:21:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you ever mistake it for blood on his hands?
1:22:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't, I didn't.
1:22:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't, um, yeah, I thought there were, I didn't think they were, it was fluid.
1:22:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we got good smeared.
1:22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So no idea, Mr. Trump, I'm in his hands.
1:22:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll admit, obviously I brought that up because I did for a second.
1:22:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:22:25
[SPEAKER_02]: No for a second.
1:22:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, just to what when he was in the midst of like, there was that whole extended body destruction, deconstruction and reconstruction sequence, which was gnarly and gothic and yes.
1:22:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:22:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought like, oh, his hands are coding, but oh, wait, it's the red gloves.
1:22:44
[SPEAKER_02]: He's been wearing the whole time.
1:22:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Never mind, never mind.
1:22:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's another mama issue.
1:22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, but yeah, he's he's extending he's he's doing these bodies from this is an interesting thing rather than being body still in from a graveyard as many versions.
1:23:03
[SPEAKER_02]: These are either bodies that were condemned to hang.
1:23:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's that's pretty much the same or taken from frozen battlefield piles and I don't know if they even said by name what war they were talking about and I thought that that was easy.
1:23:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought that was interesting that it was just like about humans being eternally at war, although I saw based on the setting, I guess it would have actually been the Crimean War.
1:23:31
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think it's necessary to know which one, the point is, it's like Harlander says at one point, like wars and wars and wars going back forever.
1:23:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, I don't, I didn't even think about which war, while watching.
1:23:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just horrific enough that they're going on the battlefield to collect bodies.
1:23:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
1:23:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:23:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just yet that the whole comment about there's always some war.
1:24:01
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, this was the book was written in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars.
1:24:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's right.
1:24:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's always some war whenever you set it.
1:24:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I thought was like Victor at his most shady was during this whole sequence with the whole like construction of the body and the lab and stuff.
1:24:23
[SPEAKER_02]: He's clearly trying to steal his brother's girl and so he leaves William to supervise the construction of this pure silver lightning rod basically to like get him out of the way and let him oversee the lab and William
1:24:36
[SPEAKER_02]: He's Williams too good to be true to be honest.
1:24:39
[SPEAKER_02]: He's always helping his brother, even though his brother is very clearly drooling after Elizabeth.
1:24:45
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you say that?
1:24:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he's too good to be true.
1:24:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I knew.
1:24:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's good.
1:24:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you get any romance between Elizabeth and William?
1:24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not.
1:24:58
[SPEAKER_02]: But do you think that's just because this is told from Victor's perspective?
1:25:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:25:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, all right, what did you think about Williams' relationship with the rest of the characters or him as a character?
1:25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, I thought that he's the younger brother, but in many ways he acts like the older brother.
1:25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he very much wants to, you know, see his brother succeed and he tries to protect them and he tries to do things to help him along his path.
1:25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So I felt like there was an inversion of what we normally think of sibling relationships.
1:25:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Like William is the one who is allowing the, you know, his brother to follow his heart.
1:25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:25:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of times it's, it's the older siblings who put in the work so that the younger siblings have the, and the ability to break free from the constraints of the family.
1:26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is different.
1:26:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It is weird also like it later at the wedding, William refers to, I'm going to sell the estate.
1:26:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, you're the younger brother.
1:26:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is the estate yours to sell?
1:26:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I know his dad liked him better, but did he explicitly leave his property to his younger son?
1:26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he did.
1:26:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he did.
1:26:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm.
1:26:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
1:26:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I thought he did, I thought that's what he did, I thought he left it to William.
1:26:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It is true that he sees William that it's his true son.
1:26:34
[SPEAKER_02]: it's interesting they have indeed like kind of swapped personalities versus which you stereotypically think of older younger sibling you know whereas um uh victors the more brass retention seeker and William the more yeah yeah responsible one hmm so okay if you of the versions you've watched or comparing it to the original version how did this animation
1:27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked it.
1:27:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked it a lot actually, so I was very happy with it.
1:27:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I thought it, I don't know if it's my favorite, but I have to do something, I think about it a little bit more, but I thought it was really well done.
1:27:24
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think when it didn't work?
1:27:27
[SPEAKER_02]: or it seemed not to have worked when he Victor just said like, oh, I give up and went to bed and then woke up and found the creature standing around.
1:27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but that was dope.
1:27:39
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that is something from the novel that del Toro.
1:27:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, del Toro was like, that's a favorite scene of mine that I think I've seen maybe one other adaptation that used it, but every other one tends to skip it.
1:27:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the whole, you know,
1:27:54
[SPEAKER_00]: somebody watching over you as you sleep, you know, it's horrifying, even if it is your own creation, you know what I mean?
1:28:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Just to wake up to that, to acknowledge how long has this pain been hovering over me, watching me breathe and dream.
1:28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's nightmare fuel for me.
1:28:18
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's for I just had a thought about something that I'm sure people have thought about before, but this whole thing in the novel version, this version takes more after the 30s movies were Victor once he sees the creatures alive.
1:28:30
[SPEAKER_02]: He's excited about it.
1:28:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's like, I got what I want.
1:28:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And now let's start training.
1:28:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where things start to go wrong.
1:28:37
[SPEAKER_02]: But in the novel version, he.
1:28:41
[SPEAKER_02]: is, yeah, it's a pretty, well, he's afraid.
1:28:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so first of all, the whole like coming to life things way more subdued and then he's like, oh, well, that didn't work, goes to bed, find Caesar creature, and then is afraid and runs away.
1:28:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just for a thought about it, like, is this also was that a representation of postpartum depression, where it's like, I created this life, myself, and now,
1:29:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Now what?
1:29:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I've finished this big thing and now everything is different and now, you know, just the freaking out about it afterward.
1:29:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
1:29:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so because I don't think, you know, women are.
1:29:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, postpartum and depression is a huge thing that a lot of us women here.
1:29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, but I don't think that women have been allowed to just run away.
1:29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, it happened.
1:29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it happens, but many times that's not the reaction that society places on women who suffer from postpartum depression.
1:29:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:29:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Like Victor just ups and into mouthful.
1:30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just like fuck this shit.
1:30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm out.
1:30:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I regret.
1:30:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm out.
1:30:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I regret everything.
1:30:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't see that as, you know, viable for no, no, no, no, it's definitely not for women.
1:30:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if it's if I
1:30:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think that Mary Shelley herself, by the time she started this novel, she had one child who died, and she was another that lived William, a named William, and she was pregnant with another child.
1:30:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was by all accounts very devoted mother.
1:30:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, very, like, mercy was bothered by it.
1:30:45
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he was like, you're more into the kids than me.
1:30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also, to that question, I also think it's, you know, like, the difference is that fathers and men can oftentimes just pick up and leave.
1:31:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
1:31:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:31:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And women that was the norm, especially in that time.
1:31:18
[SPEAKER_02]: right.
1:31:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's more about the father's son relationship than, yeah, yeah, giving birth.
1:31:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Absence of of the father, being able to just, you know, oh well, then this is some fact of shit I did.
1:31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm out.
1:31:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, you know what I mean?
1:31:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what that is getting to like the lack of responsibility for your actions.
1:31:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: For your creation,
1:31:50
[SPEAKER_00]: what you've put into this world.
1:31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a stark reminder of that.
1:31:57
[SPEAKER_00]: What how responsible are you?
1:32:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and here we have a father who stays and does his duty at least at first, but resent it and resent resents his progeny in pretty much the same way that Victor was
1:32:19
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I can't finish it, or I'm sorry.
1:32:21
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I say, and we see him training him in the same way.
1:32:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's physical punishment.
1:32:25
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, you perform this task monkey, or I will hit you.
1:32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's very true for both men and women.
1:32:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we are raised in how we choose to raise our children.
1:32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's,
1:32:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Again comes back to nature versus nurture.
1:32:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you born to be a terrible parent all you taught to be a terrible Probably the latter at least in this case.
1:32:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in this case right right Is that inherent or is that something you've learned?
1:33:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah
1:33:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:33:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, this was, for me, this was this was the most impressive part of Jacob a Lordease portrayal was this whole just experiencing the world apparently.
1:33:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So he had like four weeks apparently to prep for this role because he got it last minute and was, you know, had to finish another role first.
1:33:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what he did is he, he says in interviews, he went out into the woods, he, like, studied, okay, how do babies perceive the world, you know, like paying attention to just the things in nature, the trees and all of that, and also he said he watched his dog, just the innocence of his dog, the boundless love.
1:33:51
[SPEAKER_02]: that we see toward a victor, and apparently Zeltour also had him study this Japanese dance called Buto, particularly the part of it that Alurty refers to as the dance of reanimating a corpse.
1:34:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, you said you wanted to see more of this particular creature, uh, why, uh, what's that?
1:34:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But just his, the portrayal by a Lordean is just, you know, the direction that the
1:34:29
[SPEAKER_00]: how the creature emotes, you know, the feeling that you get from the work, without words, um, yeah, I'm just, I was invested, you know, I was invested in, and this character.
1:34:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll talk about more of the character once we get to,
1:34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: their telling of the story and just kept it out as immediately trying to do the creature from when he's hunched over staring at a victor like what's going on in that brain.
1:35:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just been awakened, you know?
1:35:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:35:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Victor takes, I mean, I know Victor is at first, why it almost seems like he's gentle, but then he literally changed him.
1:35:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And why would you not give him a, like, any sort of robe or anything?
1:35:28
[SPEAKER_02]: You look super cold down there.
1:35:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't think that doesn't think of it, doesn't believe that this thing is human.
1:35:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:35:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's likely to be close.
1:35:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that half a corpse puppet that was a block of wood like the twigling thing Flash about flesh and has muscle.
1:35:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:35:55
[UNKNOWN]: Mm-hmm.
1:35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a thing.
1:35:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:35:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's horrifying to think like that half corpse was something that was alive for a moment and and it's horrified existence and curious and then dead.
1:36:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:36:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:36:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was fun to see I liked how Jacob already also played that whole bit where he's following the floating leaves.
1:36:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:36:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And you just think like, yeah, there's, you know, the whole being chained in the basement it reminds me of, um, that Ursula Caleb wins story about what's called again, the child of Amola.
1:36:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And, okay, yeah, it's this, it's a super short story.
1:36:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm about to spoil it, anyone who hasn't read it yet, but five minutes to read really, but it's basically it's about.
1:36:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Except for you, John, I'm sorry, I'm about to spoil it for you.
1:36:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about, it's about, like this city where all these things are going on, but then the secret of the city is there is this one abused child chained up in the basement.
1:37:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And this child takes all of the ill so that everyone else can be happy, but of course the child lives in suffering and you cannot share the child any mercy or the entire city will fall apart.
1:37:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
1:37:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure if that's a direct reference that Del Toro would have been making, but it just struck me that there are similarities there.
1:37:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And just like the creature should be, you know, if you have a child, you want them to be outside experiencing the world.
1:37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how you learn.
1:37:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You watch the leaves on the trees, you know?
1:37:34
[SPEAKER_02]: You watch them float through the river.
1:37:36
[SPEAKER_02]: But here it's just chained in cold stone with words from a book being shouted at him
1:37:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I love to the whole bit about his first word being Victor over and over.
1:37:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Like Victor, and Elizabeth says, perhaps for the time being that word means everything to him.
1:37:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that means that works two ways.
1:38:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I get means because Victor is everything to him.
1:38:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That's his creator.
1:38:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the only person he's ever been exposed to.
1:38:08
[SPEAKER_02]: But also like Victor, like Victor means chair.
1:38:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Victor means water.
1:38:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Victor means you are.
1:38:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Victor meanwhile is referring to the creature as it, so though sometimes him, and William dares ask, which part of the creature holds the soul?
1:38:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So, very unlike their father.
1:38:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Very unlike their father.
1:38:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, what that is the whole question here is like, if Victor created this creature out of body parts,
1:38:45
[SPEAKER_02]: where it does this spark of life come from, the soul of consciousness.
1:38:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And then if that can be created, if a soul can exist in a constructed form like this, can, in our modern terms, a soul exist in programs and in lines of code.
1:39:07
[SPEAKER_00]: If it achieves consciousness.
1:39:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Saturday afternoon over here in New York.
1:39:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't get me started on this.
1:39:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Solve a machine.
1:39:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, but that's our body's just an organic machine.
1:39:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that Lisa is a Saturday afternoon in New York City.
1:39:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you agree with the statement, this obviously, the tagline of the movie Elizabeth says to Victor only monsters play God, Baron?
1:39:47
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't agree with that.
1:39:50
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
1:39:51
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's something that a woman of a person and not just a woman, a person of that time, like, say, but I definitely don't agree with that.
1:40:02
[SPEAKER_00]: What doesn't mean to play God, you know, there's so many questions like I could ask of that.
1:40:07
[SPEAKER_02]: If Victor had treated the creature better, would creating life in that way have been immoral?
1:40:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I don't think so.
1:40:20
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I also tend to agree.
1:40:22
[SPEAKER_02]: You can do it.
1:40:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think so.
1:40:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, this is a mad scientist shit, you know what you're saying?
1:40:30
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't think so.
1:40:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to treat your creations well and also, I mean, but that's the question is like, what if your creation is dangerous to others because
1:40:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, Victor makes the creature dangerous by the treatment, but the creature is dangerous and apparently, because the creature is strong and immortal.
1:40:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is the creature dangerous and apparently?
1:40:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think the creature is dangerous.
1:40:58
[SPEAKER_02]: It may be not in temperament, but the creature has the capability.
1:41:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, but everything, as it may occur,
1:41:07
[SPEAKER_02]: a car is inherently dangerous, you know, but we use them every day.
1:41:11
[SPEAKER_02]: We still, they exist all around us.
1:41:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, yeah, I don't feel a car is inherently dangerous though.
1:41:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it is like if you're not careful, it won't be any tool can be inherently dangerous.
1:41:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, sure.
1:41:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Some more, but I don't agree that tools are inherently dangerous.
1:41:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, something exists and for the purpose that you use it, it can be changed.
1:41:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But just the mere existence of that thing doesn't mean that it is...
1:41:46
[SPEAKER_00]: bad or good or whatever, is how those things are used.
1:41:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
1:41:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:41:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:41:53
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
1:41:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I agree.
1:41:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, the creature is, um, whatever Victor's saw the creature as in the beginning, you know, in terms of animated flesh versus not it's own person.
1:42:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we all agree as an audience that the creature is a conscious sentient being in therefore no longer, not never a tool was never a tool, whatever Victor intended.
1:42:16
[UNKNOWN]: Right, right.
1:42:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the way the section ends, um, now the creature has learned the word Elizabeth and the Victor says, say one more word, just stop me from killing you.
1:42:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And he says Elizabeth has like, oh, that's the one word that's going to make him kill that word.
1:42:32
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the word.
1:42:33
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the word.
1:42:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It would be it said book or water.
1:42:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if that would have stopped anything, but Elizabeth.
1:42:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we would have stopped it, but you know, saying Elizabeth definitely was the thing that was like, okay, like that.
1:42:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Elizabeth comes back to set him free, but of course he can set himself free.
1:42:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the explosion is how Victor loses a leg, which is new.
1:42:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I saw, I guess this is in the documentary that Del Toro was saying, the idea was, Victor and the creatures should begin to look more and more alike as the movie goes on.
1:43:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So now Victor's walking differently and of course he by the end they're both covered in these like piles of furs in the Arctic.
1:43:19
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's interesting that they there was a that's true.
1:43:24
[SPEAKER_02]: That's another scene that was gory.
1:43:26
[SPEAKER_02]: With the leg.
1:43:28
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
1:43:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that is it for Victor's tail.
1:43:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to take one final quick break here.
1:43:33
[SPEAKER_02]: When we come back, we're going to talk about the creatures tale, which is shorter said and the ending.
1:43:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Be right back.
1:43:53
[SPEAKER_02]: and we're back with the creature's tale of Frankenstein and Jean-Jou want to get us started on the summary of this part of the plot.
1:44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: absolutely.
1:44:04
[SPEAKER_00]: As Rick the story ends and Captain Anderson's cabin, on a frozen ship into Arctic the creature arrives, his violence dissipating when he's given the chance to tell his side of the story, beginning with his escape from the burning lab and watching ashore.
1:44:19
[SPEAKER_00]: After that, he puts on the uniform of a dead soldier he finds and wanders the woods, studying the animals to learn about the world and find food.
1:44:28
[SPEAKER_02]: One day he is spotted by hunters who shoot at him.
1:44:31
[SPEAKER_02]: He flees and takes refuge in a shed for millgears that he finds near what turns out to be the cabin of the hunters themselves.
1:44:39
[SPEAKER_02]: They live there with young Anamaria, her mother Alma, and an elderly blind man almost father.
1:44:46
[SPEAKER_02]: The creature watches the family, and as the grandfather teaches Anna Maria new words, the creature also learns to speak.
1:44:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Seeing that the family is overwhelmed by work, he secretly helps them at night, collecting wood and even building them offence.
1:45:00
[SPEAKER_02]: They thank the quote-unquote Spirit of the Forest, and eventually, leaving gifts of clothing and food, and for a time the creature is content.
1:45:09
[SPEAKER_00]: When winter comes, the men leave for the annual hunting trip, and Alma prepares herself in Anamaria to spend a winter in town, but the old men insist on staying behind and spending his winter in prayer as he always does.
1:45:23
[SPEAKER_00]: The creature decides to sit his chance to approach the old man.
1:45:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Beligned as he is, he cannot see the creatures unnatural look, and assumes he is a wounded soldier.
1:45:32
[SPEAKER_00]: He invites him to stay, teaches him to read, and calls him friend.
1:45:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Encouraged by the old man to confront his past, the creature returns to the ruins of the tower.
1:45:43
[SPEAKER_02]: There he finds the remnants of Victor's notes and learns what he is and the identity and address of the man who made him.
1:45:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But when he returns to the old man to share this news, he finds him lying dying from a wolf attack.
1:45:56
[SPEAKER_02]: The creature unleashes his fury and the wolves and bends over the old man for their final exchange.
1:46:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I am the child of a charnel house, a monster, he says.
1:46:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I know which you are the old man responds, you are a good man and you are my friend.
1:46:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the old man dies in the creature's arms, just as they hunters return, walking in on this scene and assuming the worst.
1:46:18
[SPEAKER_02]: They attack the creature who fights back, killing one,
1:46:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Victor, meanwhile, is racked with anxiety, dreaming nightly of the angel of death.
1:46:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It is William and Elizabeth's wedding day.
1:46:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It is also the day to creature arrives, demanding his make to create him a companion.
1:46:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The two have a confrontation.
1:46:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And William joins in being thrown against the wall for his efforts.
1:46:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Elizabeth arrives as things escalate, ecstatic to see the creature, when Victor fires at him she jumps in front of the bullet.
1:46:53
[SPEAKER_00]: As William dies from his injuries, the creature whose violence killed him carries his bride to never be, to a cave, when she shares her love for the creature, whom she calls the pure being she has spent her life seeking.
1:47:08
[SPEAKER_02]: When Elizabeth's life passes out of our body, the creature is enraged, he finds Victor and attacks him crushing his nose, and then he runs north, and Victor blaming him for Elizabeth and William's deaths follows.
1:47:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's a lot, but let's jump back to the beginning of his tale where the creature is a Disney princess with just kept thinking, every time they show the creature in the mill house, he's got mice all over him, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like,
1:47:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I like what Del Toro did here with the, the whole blind man thing is, it's a classic trope of, it comes from the original book in the original book.
1:47:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It is with a family like this.
1:47:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it wasn't in the 9th, the first Frankenstein movie in 1931, but the sequel, Bride of Frankenstein from 1935, um, they included this aspect of the book, but they had the old man alone, but they did something interesting with it because the old man was alone.
1:48:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, it allowed the creature to spend more time with him with him.
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:48:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, actually had that time where the man could teach him and everything.
1:48:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so here, Del Toro has kind of taken the best of both worlds.
1:48:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so that the creature has, they opportunity to learn from studying them, but, and, and do the other stuff, but then also gets time alone with him.
1:48:33
[SPEAKER_00]: and also to see the family, you know, interactions, I think, between the old man and Anna Maria, right?
1:48:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what's really important here because it contrasts so starkly with what he experienced with Victor.
1:48:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, yeah, I agree, exactly.
1:48:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, to have that modeled for him.
1:48:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
1:48:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and of course, we get more literary references here, just as we do in the book, he's literally reading paradise.
1:49:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Lost.
1:49:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And the creature also reads Percy Shelley's Azamandi, as which is one of Percy Shelley's most famous poems.
1:49:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And we also get more backstory for the old man, which we don't get a name for him, but we get backstory.
1:49:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to suppose he doesn't have a name because it's a creature, doesn't either.
1:49:18
[SPEAKER_02]: But we find out that the old man is a toning for taking a good man's life many years ago.
1:49:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this line that he says.
1:49:27
[SPEAKER_02]: He says, forgive, forget the true measure of wisdom to know you have been harmed by whom you have been harmed and choose to let it all fade.
1:49:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so.
1:49:38
[SPEAKER_02]: like I had a friend who's to say she admired another friend because everything was like water off a duck's back with her.
1:49:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know we should always, you know, there's definitely a line for that, but there's anything a lot of, there's definitely a lot of three here in the way.
1:49:55
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of, I love that quote.
1:49:59
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so beautiful.
1:50:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I ain't letting this fade, we could catch a fade, but I ain't letting this fade, that's all I'm living.
1:50:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that there is, there is a lot of, that, I, to me, it comes down to, I'm a choose your battles person.
1:50:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that there is a lot of stuff that I do just let slide because I can't, I don't have the energy and it's counterproductive a lot at the time.
1:50:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But there are, you know, the hills that I stand and plant my flag on.
1:50:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And
1:50:46
[SPEAKER_02]: more sublime, I suppose than I am, and maybe I'll get there, maybe I'll get there by the time I'm his age.
1:50:54
[SPEAKER_00]: We try.
1:50:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We try, we have to talk about something else here that is my one major thing against the movie and if anyone who's listened to us discuss more bias.
1:51:07
[SPEAKER_02]: My mind might know it's coming out.
1:51:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that slender.
1:51:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that slender.
1:51:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's slender.
1:51:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's slender.
1:51:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I am.
1:51:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So in tune right now, we're talking about this.
1:51:24
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm a more vis-à-vis defender except for the bat's lander.
1:51:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Any here, I don't have to be a defender of this movie.
1:51:31
[SPEAKER_02]: People agree it's good.
1:51:33
[SPEAKER_02]: But except for the wolf's lander, what are we doing with, like, there's also it's a major political thing here in the Netherlands about wolves that they've been bringing them back and then
1:51:44
[SPEAKER_02]: it's always like oh the wolves are going to attack everyone but that's not normally this is not normal wolf behavior like the way we see the wolves acting in this is not it's more actually I have to say I think Claribus did a better job at that like they'll go for the low-hanging fruit but they're not breaking into Carol's house to get her.
1:52:04
[SPEAKER_02]: All right but sorry if you don't watch Claribus but
1:52:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think this version of vision of wolves is clearly quite the vision and version of wolves that we have from that time period.
1:52:19
[SPEAKER_02]: From fairy tales, you mean we're there the big bad outside.
1:52:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, absolutely.
1:52:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So this fits.
1:52:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It may not be true, but I think even in real life in that time period, this is how wolves were viewed.
1:52:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it fits the narrative of the story.
1:52:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess it depends.
1:52:41
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I like what the creature says about all this, the first time when the wolves come and attack the sheep, the creature says, it then became clear to me, the hunter did not hate the wolf, the wolf did not hate the sheep, but violence felt inevitable between them.
1:52:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps I thought, this was the way of the world.
1:53:00
[SPEAKER_02]: It would hunt you and kill you just for being who you are.
1:53:03
[SPEAKER_02]: which is such a depressing way to look at things but how what else could the creature process could it be given his experiences to that point to give in his circumstances yeah I mean we we live in a society at least that pits us against each other I won't get into just for being who we are yeah
1:53:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and this is the inherent fear of the other of the wolf coming in and eating you because you don't hate each other, but it's your different.
1:53:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Still, the wolf slander, but we got some, well, really, okay, that's true.
1:53:41
[SPEAKER_02]: More and two more gnarly things when the monster rips the skin from the wolf.
1:53:46
[SPEAKER_00]: That was crazy.
1:53:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when the monster rips the jaw from one of the hunt.
1:53:51
[SPEAKER_00]: That was crazier.
1:53:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You're right, you're right.
1:53:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, it's a five.
1:53:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a peculiar five.
1:53:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
1:53:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for agreeing.
1:54:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so I think like we are talking about William and Victor.
1:54:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that William sees Victor as the wolf.
1:54:14
[SPEAKER_02]: He's he has final words to him where that he fears him and he calls him a monster and then dies.
1:54:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And do you agree with that?
1:54:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:54:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think Tom, I think William has, at that point, has seen his brother for who his brother really is.
1:54:33
[SPEAKER_00]: No more, you know, trying to protect no more, trying to learn
1:54:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
1:54:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:54:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Victor has to live with it until he dies.
1:54:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I feel like Victor should survive this story and have to just sit and think about it.
1:55:01
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
1:55:01
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
1:55:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, there's also that trope of what's the worst torture then having to live with what you've done.
1:55:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:55:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't.
1:55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear that too, but, you know, I'm more for, you know, getting rid of the peoples.
1:55:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Let the man go, let me to get rid of what I don't think any of us expected the wedding to go down the way it did.
1:55:29
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think was going to happen when they were setting up this wedding?
1:55:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have to shout out by the way that
1:55:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I saw this immediately, but they also referenced it in the documentary about Elizabeth's wedding dress, the arms, the wraps around the arms, a references to the costume and the bride of Frank Stein.
1:55:51
[SPEAKER_00]: What's your question?
1:55:52
[SPEAKER_00]: What did I think?
1:55:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sorry.
1:55:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We, what did you think?
1:55:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for the dresses lovely.
1:55:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you agree.
1:55:57
[SPEAKER_02]: But what did you think was going to happen at the wedding?
1:56:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought our hell was going to break loose like immediately, and that's what I was going to have here.
1:56:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is good.
1:56:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's exactly what I thought is going to have.
1:56:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought our hell was going to break loose and it's going to be, you know, it's going to people who are turning, I'm going to have a lot of good stories to tell.
1:56:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that maybe all hell would break loose.
1:56:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was in the vocalist in most adaptations of Elizabeth's killed after the wedding.
1:56:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So I expect that.
1:56:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that there was going to be some sort of ceremony, maybe stuff would happen there, but I suppose I should have been watching the time because it was running out at that point.
1:56:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So of course, it just, yeah, immediately breaks loose before there's even time for any of that.
1:56:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, I do miss one thing I miss from the books is the whole, we get kind of rushed through the part where the creature asks for a companion.
1:57:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's in the books, there's like this whole philosophical conversation between them where the creature actually convinces Vixer for a while that he should do this, and he should go through and make a companion.
1:57:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And here, it cuts straight to the part where Victor's just horrified by the idea of them procreating.
1:57:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, you created this creature, but you can't stand the creature creating something himself.
1:57:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, and then in rather than trying to argue with him, the creature is just like attacks immediately.
1:57:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, that was, I'd mixed feelings about it.
1:57:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand why he didn't want to stretch that out more, but it was also felt sudden.
1:57:42
[SPEAKER_02]: There's this is an angrier creature than in the novel, I think.
1:57:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think it felt, it even feels sudden to me.
1:57:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, his anger was perfectly justified in that moment.
1:57:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I understand it.
1:57:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay.
1:58:00
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think of the whole final cave scene?
1:58:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man.
1:58:07
[SPEAKER_00]: When he says, um, it was with the quote, I think he wrote it down.
1:58:12
[SPEAKER_02]: The oelizabeth's quote says my place was never in this world.
1:58:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I sought and longed for something I could not quite name, but a new I'd found it to be lost and to be found that is the lifespan of love and in its brevity it's tragedy.
1:58:28
[SPEAKER_02]: This is made eternal.
1:58:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Better this way to fade with your eyes gazing upon me.
1:58:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It tubs up my heart.
1:58:44
[SPEAKER_02]: It's poetry.
1:58:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
1:58:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It is very poetic and it's very young.
1:58:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for the creature who is just like, this is the thing that I've, that I, I've wanted.
1:59:00
[SPEAKER_02]: To be loved.
1:59:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:59:04
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the thing I've been seeking.
1:59:07
[SPEAKER_00]: and that my creator has denied me of receiving this, so yeah.
1:59:17
[SPEAKER_02]: We know Del Toro movie is a high likelihood of someone falling in love with the monster, but it is funny.
1:59:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a trend also with Nose Furatu last year and everything.
1:59:27
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it is about this, it's interesting.
1:59:31
[SPEAKER_02]: She finds purity in the outsider, in the creature that does not even know how to conform to society.
1:59:43
[SPEAKER_02]: versus, yeah, like I said, I used the word artifice before.
1:59:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's, for me, my interpretation of what she's feeling there, why she feels this, I don't think it's pure love.
1:59:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it talks about before that she's,
2:00:01
[SPEAKER_02]: using the creature for her own purposes.
2:00:03
[SPEAKER_02]: But then again, I guess, where is the line between that in people in real life?
2:00:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that what she sees in him is a raw honesty, a realness.
2:00:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have to remember that this is the creature's telling of the story as well.
2:00:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
2:00:19
[SPEAKER_02]: True, true, true.
2:00:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, which parts are real, which are the parts that he wanted to hear?
2:00:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
2:00:28
[SPEAKER_00]: That's another thing that I felt was like we're getting a story being told from two very different perspectives, and where do we see the truth?
2:00:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Did she say this wonderful line to him or did he wish it to be so?
2:00:53
[SPEAKER_00]: was there a mixture of these things being said?
2:00:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, was it their absence of these things being said?
2:01:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, perhaps she died in his arms as he walked out.
2:01:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
2:01:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That blood looks like it was spreading off the, off the fast.
2:01:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, true.
2:01:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a difference between facts and truth.
2:01:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that we will, we won't know.
2:01:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We will never know.
2:01:16
[SPEAKER_02]: We out?
2:01:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So what do we take from the, from their respective retellings, right?
2:01:22
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we as an individual believe?
2:01:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we had gotten her version, you know?
2:01:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
2:01:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, of course, we don't in the book either, or any, yeah.
2:01:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would, well, this is why I'm also interested in we're going to get in 2026.
2:01:39
[SPEAKER_02]: We're getting they delayed I think yeah, they delayed I think to avoid this film, but we're getting the bride from Maggie Gillen Hall and that will be I'm very much looking forward to that one as well.
2:01:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But let's wrap this one up.
2:01:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to get us started on the end?
2:01:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:01:58
[SPEAKER_00]: North and north and north they go, eventually hiring sled dogs to carry them across ties into the Arctic.
2:02:05
[SPEAKER_00]: There's another confrontation and the creature takes the dynamite Victor Borticulum.
2:02:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Lightning mistake he tells Victor to run, but even that explosion is not enough to end his miserable existence.
2:02:17
[SPEAKER_02]: It was in the aftermath of this incident that Captain Anderson found Victor on the ice.
2:02:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, as Victor lies dying, the creature laments that he cannot do the same.
2:02:28
[SPEAKER_02]: His suffering will never end.
2:02:30
[SPEAKER_02]: But Victor, now consumed with regret acknowledges the creature as his son, and asks him to forgive him for his mistreatment, telling him to take his eternal life and live.
2:02:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He makes one last request, say my name, my father gave me that name and it meant nothing.
2:02:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I ask you to give it back to me one last time.
2:02:50
[SPEAKER_02]: The way you said it at the beginning when it meant the world to you.
2:02:54
[SPEAKER_02]: The creature responds, Victor, I forgive you.
2:02:58
[SPEAKER_02]: He kisses his creators forehead and it is over.
2:03:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Perhaps now we can both be, oh, sorry, perhaps now we can both be human, the creature hopes as the captain escorts him off his ship, protecting him from the crew.
2:03:27
[SPEAKER_00]: in the creature remains on the ice, unveiling his face to greet a great new dawn.
2:03:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the whole, I was thinking about the clothing aspect of this, where the creature is essentially naked when chained up with Victor.
2:03:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, and this is, you know, as a newborn, so to speak.
2:03:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it goes out into the world and puts on clothing.
2:03:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And as the movie goes on, the creature
2:03:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And I started to think about this about how we as humans are in life, for how we are, we don't shield ourselves as a small children, because most of us don't have to, you know, we are in a safe environment where our parents ensure that we can be ourselves, hopefully that's the case.
2:04:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But even when you come from a safe environment, from that as you go through life and get exposed to the outside world, to all of the horrible things that happen in life, you put on more and more layers of armor like we saw the creature with the clothing.
2:04:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So then at that last moment when he unveils his face,
2:04:36
[SPEAKER_02]: it's almost saying like okay maybe I can open myself up again to life just a little bit and see what happens.
2:04:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.
2:04:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree that it's a very simple molecule of him, you know, trying to usher in a new star in you beginning.
2:04:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, a different way to live and exist, no more running, you know, no more hiding.
2:05:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, clearly as he had been, um, tried something new and embraced the world instead of hiding away from it.
2:05:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:05:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Del Toro drives it home with his last quote from Lord Byron that he includes, and thus the hearts will break yet brokenly live on.
2:05:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not Lord Byron's, because he was blood-lettered to death.
2:05:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, sorry.
2:05:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we go from, I mean, I think that that conversation would definitely between Victor and the creature, that doesn't happen in the books.
2:05:48
[SPEAKER_02]: That is the movie invention here, because Victor's dead by the time the creature shows up to tell his tale in the book.
2:05:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
2:05:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm glad that we got it.
2:05:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I, that's what made me tear up every time I watch this film
2:06:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a great scene because sometimes we have to come to terms with, you know,
2:06:18
[SPEAKER_00]: They have to come terms with who they are as well as parents, sometimes that gulf is too wide to be, you know, covered to be bridged over and sometimes people don't make the effort to do so, you know, and in this moment we can see a father
2:06:42
[SPEAKER_00]: recognizing just how terrible he was at it, you know, and really in that moment.
2:06:53
[SPEAKER_00]: saying, I'm sorry, you know, does it take away everything that was done?
2:07:00
[SPEAKER_00]: No, absolutely not.
2:07:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But it does offer a chance for his child to grieve and to begin the process of healing.
2:07:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you don't get that, it's very difficult to heal.
2:07:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:07:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Not impossible, but difficult.
2:07:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, I mean, it's great they apparently this is inspired by Del Toro and his own final conversation with his father.
2:07:27
[SPEAKER_02]: There's this, I didn't know this whole story until I started, you know, watching the interviews, talking about this movie, where Del Toro talks about how apparently his father was kidnapped at one point and Steven Spielberg ended up paying the ransom to get his father back.
2:07:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And just, Del Toro never really got an explanation for this whole situation, and it just haunted him for his life after that.
2:07:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when his father was close to death, he sat down with him and said, we need to talk about this.
2:08:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the conversation that inspired him to add this conversation to his version of the story.
2:08:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
2:08:08
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah crazy story um yeah i i i i love that this has kind of like a more i said at the beginning but it's kind of has a more hopeful ending at least the least nihilistic ending yet like you do feel it's not just the creature like it's not just the ultimate tragedy and the creature
2:08:29
[SPEAKER_02]: nothingness to die, or to live eternal, depending on which version.
2:08:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's actually, well maybe I can make something if I'm forced to live, maybe I can actually do that, actually live.
2:08:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Given any final thoughts on the movie overall?
2:08:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm just again really glad that this movie is out because it is a great way to tell a story.
2:09:04
[SPEAKER_00]: that we all know, that most of us don't necessarily all, that most of us know, and bring something new to it.
2:09:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really enjoyed this and I'm hoping that if you haven't seen it, that you get to see it and enjoy it as well.
2:09:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope that if you have seen it that you enjoyed it, you know, almost as much as I did.
2:09:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
2:09:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and so you took a while to get this episode out, but I think a thorough discussion is worth waiting for, I hope.
2:09:36
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
2:09:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And we haven't been so crazy with all the end of your content.
2:09:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, you know you've seen your feeds.
2:09:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but if there's not enough lower-hounds content for you, you know you can always check out our affiliates You'll find that link in the link tree in the show notes to all of them, but just to shout out radioactive Ramblings is currently covering the second season of all out.
2:10:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I haven't I haven't watched the first episodes Oh, very dope.
2:10:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna be traveling so right after we record this So I'm going to be downloading them for the plane.
2:10:14
[UNKNOWN]: Nice
2:10:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Never mind the music, they are always keeping up with their steady content, and We'll shift dust.
2:10:22
[SPEAKER_02]: You can catch up on the a Christmas carol series for this year with Luke and I We had a lot of fun this pleasure with the twist episode
2:10:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the main feed, I want to shout out shortly after this, there is going to be, I interviewed a practical VFX artist named Lee Romair.
2:10:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He did do some work on this film, particularly with some of the, he said, I'm known as the dead animals guy, but he does a lot of other stuff, including, you know,
2:10:51
[SPEAKER_02]: theme park animatronics and things like that.
2:10:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had a whole conversation with him about all of that and that will be coming to your feeds soon as well.
2:10:59
[SPEAKER_02]: What else is going on in the Lairhouse feed?
2:11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it welcome to Derry wrapped up.
2:11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's out right now.
2:11:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you like the season finale?
2:11:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I did actually.
2:11:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I thought the last two episodes were
2:11:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really enjoyed, I have my clips about certain things that I've made clear on our discord, but overall I thought this was a great, great, great season.
2:11:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm looking forward to more Pennywise, more iconic scenes, like Richie given it the finger.
2:11:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I need more of that.
2:11:45
[SPEAKER_02]: More Richie, more giving it the finger.
2:11:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we have Pluribus still ongoing weekly.
2:11:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the finale is this week coming up.
2:11:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when this this episode might come out after the Pluribus finale, we'll be right before after that.
2:12:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's still ongoing.
2:12:05
[SPEAKER_00]: We have Anne Rice's Talamaska, the secret order one shot, which I haven't watched the show yet.
2:12:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So probably binge that and then listen to the one shot.
2:12:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's on Netflix and most places, no.
2:12:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Talamaska?
2:12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
2:12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, cool.
2:12:23
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the Predator Badlands one shot that was done as well.
2:12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They have wicked for good.
2:12:30
[SPEAKER_00]: with you, right?
2:12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: We could for good.
2:12:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we could for good with me, Marilyn and Nicole.
2:12:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's just well, and we just went out before we recorded, but uh, but the time this comes out a little bit out for a week.
2:12:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So there are things out there to listen to folks, please continue to listen and talk and review and send your best rebuttals and agreements, always love to have this course.
2:13:00
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also the top 10 TV subscriber poll.
2:13:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And co-host interviews will be dropping December 25th and 26th.
2:13:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it'll be in the past by the time you hear this, but yeah, catch up.
2:13:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll have heard by then.
2:13:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I still don't know what Jean's top three were, but by the time you hear this, I will have to know that.
2:13:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And you will have issues.
2:13:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh no, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
2:13:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think there's too much surprises, but you have all that to catch up on, and to look forward, a lot coming in January, we talked about that also in those TV top 10 episodes, but also a word season has begun, so I did drop just the top 20, 20, 26 Oscar qualified
2:14:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So watch out for that and watch out for more about award season coming in the new year.
2:14:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel free to catch up on what's happened in the past.
2:14:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, you and I are going to be busy in January as well.
2:14:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you got January.
2:14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're going to start with our MCU versus DCU 2026 lower down, which IP shall stand.
2:14:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be Stranger Things and Percy Jackson one shots unfortunately wonder man's going to be a one shot because it's going to be a binge drive that looks good it looks it looks good and I just I'm been I just watched the first three Percy jacklands and they were really good okay cool cool but super looking forward to one a man.
2:15:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:15:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, me too.
2:15:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And to 28 years later, the bone temple, apparently the first test audience has absolutely loved it.
2:15:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So, very excited.
2:15:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's going to be weekly a night of the seven kingdoms coverage coming as well.
2:15:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, super cast and patreon subscribers, um, you could that is the same feed two ways where you get ad free access to all of this stuff, but also regular extra episodes, like we didn't get to do the Witcher before the end of the year, but I think we're still going to do it in January.
2:15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to.
2:15:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay, so we're going to be talking about the witchers of what you watch in for subscribers and also there's going to be one About death by lightning with Brian who is a historian specialized in Garfield the president that death by light is about so nice nice
2:15:57
[SPEAKER_02]: lots and lots of stuff coming up in the new year, but we would not be here at all without a few peoples.
2:16:04
[SPEAKER_02]: We'd like to shout out our thank yous now.
2:16:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I've pulled this from the horror folder and honor of our creature.
2:16:10
[SPEAKER_02]: It is called longing.
2:16:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you to our Discord server boosters, Erin Kay, Tila the Thriller, Dube 71, Athena Agilea, Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost Partition, Radioactive Richard, and Adriana.
2:16:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you to all of our listeners if you're listening to this right now, you are helping us enormously, you can help us even more for free by sharing this episode with anyone else would like to know more about Frankenstein and leaving a nice review wherever you happen to be listening.
2:16:42
[SPEAKER_02]: But, of course, I especially want to thank our subscribers who keep us going most of all our top tier, the loremasters.
2:16:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Some Martian Michael G. Michelle ESC, Peter O'H, Nancy M. Duke 71, Brian 863 Friedrich H. Sarah L. Garrancy, Andreby, Huang Yu, Nathan T. Sub-Zero, Earring K. Dally V. Mothership 61, Naurals.
2:17:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Cathy W. Lestu, Jeffrey B. Eliseo, you Ben B. Scott F. Steven and Julia F. Holly S. Bill Mario, Paul F. A.
2:17:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Rocky Sim, Jessica A.
2:17:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Red Sippy, the TCS.
2:17:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Top of me, catch it, LNR, and always last.
2:17:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Adrienne.
2:17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Any final words, John?
2:17:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
2:17:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
2:17:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, give us a sequel for real.
2:17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening to the lorehounds.
2:17:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Please send any questions and feedback to lorehounds at the lorehounds.com or horror at the lorehounds.com and check out our supercast and patreon feeds for ad free access and bonus episodes.
2:17:38
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2:17:44
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