Latest / Ruining the Workplace Podcast / S2 E4 Madeleine Vionnet Ruins Couture
Transcript
- Jaden: I'm Jaden Danielle: and I'm Danielle. Jaden: and this is the Ruining the Workplace podcast. Danielle: Yeah. Okay, Jaden: why do we always start this podcast with weather talk? Danielle: it's funny because I had the same thought of like, dear God, we are starting with the weather. Are you fucking kidding Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: me? Okay, so we're gonna start over. Jaden: Mm, poo poo poo. Danielle: I finally watched The Devil Wears Prada 2. Did you did you watch it? Have you seen it? Okay. Jaden: say more. No, I have not. Danielle: I know we talked about at one point doing like a watch party, and then I was like, Jaden: yeah. Danielle: I'm just gonna fucking do it. And I did. Jaden: I'm glad you did. Danielle: And it was good and I liked it. but what my takeaway was, and I didn't have this takeaway on the first one, but now that I'm reflecting, Jaden: Hmm. Danielle: I'm like, that makes sense. Andy is fucking annoying as hell Jaden: my gosh. Danielle: and is so self-obsessed. Like, ma'am. Jaden: Mm-hmm. There you go. Danielle: things that aren't maybe a problem and definitely aren't your problem. Jaden: You know, that's funny. Danielle: You know what I mean? Jaden: My mom said that same thing. She watched it and Danielle: my god. Jaden: she was like, Why did we do that? And Danielle: Yeah yeah Jaden: she said Miranda Priestley was like not nearly as sassy and that was kind of a a big letdown. Danielle: I mean, I don't wanna spoil anything. I think in context, a less sassy Miranda made sense. But Jaden: Interesting. Danielle: she was less sassy. Like she didn't bring that real bitch energy, but like a respectable bitch. You know what I mean? I use Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Danielle: that as like an endearing term. I don't think it's a bad thing. yeah. I I love it. Jaden: No, I agree. I loved I love her. I think her character in the first one was fantastic. Danielle: So great. Yeah. But it was funny because I remember really liking the first movie and I enjoyed the second Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: one. But after I watched it, I'm like, good God. Wait. Was I supposed to feel that way after the first one? Because I didn't. Until watching it happen in the second, I'm like, Yeah, why is she so meddling? That's not Jaden: Mm. Danielle: you don't need to do that. And she acts like she's like and this does come out, I think, in the first one, but you like she's better than everybody because she's a real journalist. But like, ma'am, you can't no, stop. these people are experts in their field, you know? Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: I was disappointed and I'm like, wait, am I Is this what I'm supposed to take away? Jaden: Hmm. Danielle: yeah, I don't it was really so you need to watch it and we need to compare Jaden: Okay. Danielle: notes because I was like I had a much stronger reaction to that than I was anticipating. I was expecting a little more Emily in Paris energy in that, like, my god, the cute clothes. And there was that, right? But I don't know. Jaden: Mm. Is it really just because she doesn't have like the thing that drives that first one is just her comeuppance, you know, like she Danielle: Right. Jaden: has to reach she has to kind of beat this thing that's like, Danielle: Right. Jaden: you're not good enough and then we made you good enough and now you're good enough. Yay. And Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Jaden: she has to kind of crack open Miranda Priestley a little bit to kind of find Danielle: Mm, mm. Jaden: the person inside the boss bitch. And I I love Danielle: Right. Jaden: that arc because it doesn't turn out to be a bad thing. It's like, you helped Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: build like the protege that you became by the end of this movie, but then it's like Okay, but I I I just sit here questioning all of these remakes of really great movies like Beetlejuice is another one where I'm like, W did we have to do that? And now now Danielle: it that was so bad. Jaden: well, there's no capturing the magic of the first time you see that movie. I mean, it's the Danielle: No. Right. Right. Jaden: same with you're gonna be like, What? But like Spaceballs. That is like Danielle: No, I know. what do you mean? Jaden: one of my favorite movies of all time. But Danielle: Pretty good. Wait, are you serious? A sequel. Jaden: They're gonna do a sequel. And I'm like, yeah, and like John yeah, it's supposed to come out soon. And like Danielle: That's weird. Jaden: we don't have John Candy, so what are we doing? Like, come on. So I I don't know. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, wait, wait, who's Barf? Jaden: I don't know. But also we don't have that kind of humor as a culture anymore. And the whole thing about that moo movie is that Danielle: No. Yeah. Jaden: it's like I mean, it's you know, it's got it's got some old style of humor. Danielle: Well, Bright, yeah. It doesn't age as well. It's but it's still funny. No, for sure. Like, I love it. Right, you can't get away with that. Yeah. Jaden: No, but it's still funny, okay. But you can't do that now. You can't replicate that. Mm-hmm. Danielle: Yeah, I don't understand I mean, I know that like nostalgia culture is very real and a lot of those things do make money because it'll be people who are like, my god, I love that movie when I was younger. Let's go see the sequel or let's go see the remake. And sometimes it's fine. And a lot of times it's really terrible. And Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: I don't know why you would need a r a sequel so many years after the fact. I had a really good segue, what I thought was a really good segue, from the devil wears product to what I did last weekend to the story today. Jaden: Ooh. Let's do it. Let's hear it. Danielle: But we're recording a little bit after the fact. So it it feels like Jaden: Mm. Danielle: it doesn't hit quite as well, but I'm gonna go with it. So Jaden: Do it. Danielle: a couple of weekends ago, I went to the Paris Couture exhibit at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts. Jaden: Mm. Danielle: And it was incredible. I what did I I think I watched The Devil Wears Prada and then the next day I went to that exhibit. So I was just feeling very fancy. Although Jaden: I'm excited. Danielle: I wore like the most casual outfit. I'm like, I should have dolled up for this. I'm like in my like bootcut jeans and a sweater that I've had for fifteen years. And like but it was cute. Jaden: Yeah, but here's the thing. Here's the thing about Danielle. You always look fabulous no matter what. Like you have an air of fabuloso. So you do, always. Danielle: Mm-hmm. My God. Thank you. I'd like to think so. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Now I'm just like, how do I go on from this? I know. So anyway, the Jaden: I mean Danielle: exhibit was amazing and a lot of really beautiful dresses. It's kind of set up to talk about like the start of Paris Couture and what it means to be couture. It's like an official label. You have to meet certain requirements. Apparently the French love their requirements. Like you can't be champagne if you're not from Champagne and you can't be couture Jaden: I mean Danielle: if you don't have a shop on this one street and you don't show two collections and there's many rules. Anyway, yeah, it was really cool to learn about that. And then they had pieces set up from different decades, starting in like the late 1800s all the way up until today. So it was really cool to see different pieces and how. fashion transitioned or things that stayed the same. And there were many designers that I'd heard of, like Chanel, Givenchy, like names that you know. And then I learned about a few Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: new names and people who were kind of pioneers in that space. So what I want to talk about today is not necessarily someone who was like first in her role, but she was really, really influential in couture fashion. During like the early 1900s. So her name Jaden: Mm. Danielle: is Madeline Vionette. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. It might be Vionet. I don't know. But Madeline was born Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: in 1876 into a very poor family in France. at the age of twelve, she had already left school and was apprenticing as a seamstress. So she gets started in maybe not fashion but clothing. Yeah, fashion adjacent, very, very early. and when she's around 18 years old, she's married and she's suffering the loss of a child, and she decides to kind of turn things upside down. Which is, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Well, I my understanding is a child that was born and then died, but I guess I don't know for sure. But this is kind of a pivotal moment Jaden: Loss of a child, like a child that was born and then died, or was it like do we know? sad. Danielle: for her, and it's interesting because This is a kind of a trajectory that is not uncommon for women. I know in some of our like book mentions in previous episodes, I was talking about the Fierce Country book, and several of the women in that book kind of made major shifts after the loss of a child or their marriage Jaden: Mm, mm-hmm. Danielle: like not working out. Like a major life event happens, and then they're like, Well, fuck that. I'm doing this now. Jaden: Yeah. Yep. Danielle: Which is I'm like, we should just study that. That's so interesting. So Madeline suffers the loss of her child and she's like, I'm out of this marriage. I don't know if it was a good marriage or a bad marriage. I would assume it wasn't fulfilling her in some way, to just be like, bye. Mm-hmm. Yeah, she's eighteen. Yeah. I mean, right. I mean it's like the eighteen hundreds, so that seems like you're middle aged already. Jaden: Wait, was she eighteen, did you say, at this time? well, who the fuck wants to be married at eighteen? Anyway. doesn't mean the women liked it. God. Yeah, you're basically n knocking on death's door at that point. Danielle: Right. So I don't know. But to have this like moment of like, wait, I don't know how much life I have left. I can't be living like this. I Jaden: Yep. Danielle: feel that. so she leaves her marriage and she decides to go to London to work as a seamstress in a hospital. Jaden: Hospital. Okay, I was not expecting you to say that. Danielle: Yes. I know, right? Very surprising. like, huh, okay. I mean, it's a job. She can support herself, right? Jaden: Sure. Mm-hmm. Danielle: And eventually, and I don't know how long after all of this, but eventually she returns to France and she starts working in a Paris fashion house called Caillot Sewers, which is Kyo sisters, basically. It's these three Jaden: Mm. Danielle: sisters who started their own fashion line. And she is a twall maker. Is it twal or toil? It's like the crinkly. Twe is it twil? Really? Jaden: I think it's twill. Like a twill. Twel I think so. Danielle: Not twill like a gunny sec. Twill. Yeah. Twill I've always said twall. Okay, well she's not Jaden: Mm-mm. No. T O I L E Twill. it's probably like Twil Twil. Well, why don't we look that shit up? Danielle: doing this too long, but like we We don't need to spend too much time on this. This is not like the highlight of her story. Jaden: Twall. Anyway. No, it's all about the twelve anyway, keep going. Danielle: It's really important. anyway, so she's working at this fashion house making the twil or twil. she's working there and she's learning a lot and she's able to really explore what becomes eventually her signature look, which is very drapey silhouettes, very fitted. Like if you think about the fashion at the time, it's corseted. It's like very proper and prim and you're covered. And she goes on to do this really Grecian inspired look that's not you you can't wear a corset under it because of the way the satin or the silk will hang on your body. And it's it's just very, very different. So she's learning and and given this space to explore all of these different ways of arranging fabric and and Creating these different looks. And ultimately, she leaves the fashion house because she was looking for a more simplistic look than the clothing that that house was producing. They were much more frilly and just kind of had a lot more going on. And she wanted a very simple look. Yeah, Jaden: Okay, all right. Danielle: yeah. So in 1912, she founds her own house called Vionette. She had to close during World War One, which is pretty common for most of the fashion houses at this time. they had to shut down because of the war. But she was one of the ones who was able to re-establish and reopen in 1923 with a new location. And then a couple years later, she actually expanded to a Fifth Avenue location in New York and started selling kind of like selling to department stores, I guess. Like Hey, here's a catalog. You can buy some of these fits from my brand and sell them at Macy's or something. But she also has her own fashion house where you could go in and have the full couture experience. Jaden: Ooh. Danielle: Yeah, isn't that cool? I'm like, my God, I would Jaden: Yes. Danielle: Yeah, I don't, I'm like, I don't know if I have a I I guess maybe Chanel works in the same way of like, I could buy Chanel at Nordstrom. Or I could go to the Chanel atelier, right? Like Jaden: Mm-hmm, mm hmm. Right. Danielle: It depends on how much money I have and what experience I'm looking for. Right, right. Jaden: Yeah. What your social status is. Danielle: Turns out I'm neither Chanel experience, unfortunately, but that's fine. So also during this World War One era, she's experimenting more with different fabrics and different draping mechanisms, often kind of just letting the fabric fall. To decide the shape or the effect of a piece of clothing. So she might like drape it over your body. And she's also experimenting with not having zippers and buttons. It's Jaden: Ooh. Danielle: just kind of wrapped around your body. Jaden: Mm. Danielle: And how it falls is how it falls. And it's it's really beautiful, like very flowy clothing. And then she becomes known as the champion of the bias cut. Which do you know what a bias cut is? Jaden: I'd like to say I do, but I don't. Danielle: Do you want to guess? Jaden: bias cut. is it something that is asymmetrical? Danielle: Yeah, I I mean that seems fair. So I don't know. It's not Jaden: okay. Danielle: an she didn't invent the technique. It's not new, but she started using it really commonly. And a bias cut is basically when you cut against the grain of the fabric. So it's asymmetrical in that like normally you're cutting with the grain of the fabric. So if you look at like a piece of clothing, you can see how the stitching is working or how it's all kind of put together. And there's a way Jaden: Mm. Danielle: to cut with it, and there's a way to cut across or against it. And she was like, we're going across and we're going against. And it yeah, Jaden: Interesting. Danielle: and it really contributes to that drapey silhouette. So she's already been exploring how do I kind of just like let things flow and fall against the body. And then she adds in this bias cut, which really changes how the fabric falls and how Jaden: Mm. Danielle: it lays. So if you look up many of her dresses, the skirts are really flowy and they're really. I it's very elegant to me. It's a style that I really like because it's like it can be fitted in the waist and in the bust Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: and then it just kind of falls. Jaden: I am looking at as you're talking, I did look it up and it does cite her as one of the designers who sort of made this iconic and it yeah, it's gorgeous Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Jaden: like that kind of iconic old Hollywood sort of satiny drapey thing you think Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jaden: of. And okay, that's really interesting. I love that Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: it has an actual I mean, of course it does, but now I know what it is name. Yeah. Danielle: Right. But now you know. Yeah. And isn't that cool? And like I really appreciate the she's not hidden as the person who made that popular. It's pretty well known in that space. Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: Like that was Madeline. She did that. And she was dressing a lot of really famous people during kind of the golden age of Hollywood. and so it became that signature look, right? And what's interesting about the bias cut, as I mentioned, it's not new, but it was really commonly used for like skirts. or trims or embellishments, but not the full dress. And she was like, no, no, we're doing this whole thing. You can't wear your corsets anymore. The whole thing is very fitted and flowing, but really accentuates a woman's body. And it's flattering the curves, right? Jaden: yes. Danielle: It's flattering the forms of your body and encouraging you to go without corsets, which in its own way was really revolutionary for the time. And I don't think, and I didn't find enough discourse about that piece of her work of like that she's really turning the tables on fashion. You know, Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: it's like her and Coco Chanel at the time really changing the silhouette of women's wear. Like Coco was like, we're gonna do like more I'm gonna say casual, but the Chanel is not a casual outfit. Like the Chanel tweet is Jaden: Well it's more like it's like a it it's like businessware adjacent. Danielle: Right. Yeah. And at the time it was women's like casual day wear. Whereas before Jaden: Mm, yeah, yeah. Danielle: everything was very corseted, you're very tucked in and you're pinned in. And now these two are saying, Well, let's let's work with a woman's body and see how we can accentuate that or use that to inform our designs and say, Buy corsets, we don't need you or you don't work with this outfit. And I'm sure that was terrifying to some people. Jaden: Well, not to mention, I don't know, and maybe this doesn't come up in your research, but I would think that like by this time, this is when people are sort of getting out of the waist as small as possible, sort of like we're willing to Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: break our ribs to have that snatched waist thing happening with fashion where it was like pain over Danielle: Right, right. Yeah. Right. Jaden: whatever. You know what I mean? Danielle: Exactly. Yeah. It's not the Victorian like, my God, you have a six-inch waist. Not Jaden: Right. Danielle: to say that they were embracing larger bodies either, but if you don't have to tie yourself into a corset and you're letting your body kind of dictate how the fabric falls, that's much more accepta That's a very Jaden: That's a different experience, yeah. Danielle: different experience. Right. And Into the twenties and thirties, you know, she's continuing to experiment with this and create these signature looks that again, not using the corsets or structured wear, and it's really taking off. And she's dressing all these Hollywood stores. And you can see in clothing today how her influence lives on of the drapey skirt, or there was a dress I used to wear all the time in my 20s and early 30s called like a fit and flare. And Jaden: yes. Mm-hmm. Danielle: You know, and I'm like, it's absolutely influenced by this. You know what I mean? Like it's totally part of that. Jaden: huh. I had a couple of those dresses as well. huh. Danielle: Another right? And they're so cute. They're so cute. And it and I always felt like this is such a flattering look because it hits just right. And then it like drapes Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: just so. And then I also think of the dress and how to lose a guy in ten days, like the iconic golden dress. Like that's Jaden: yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Danielle: so Vionette inspired. Completely. Like just the way it lays on her body. So cute. So cute. Jaden: Yeah. I just am not a girl who can wear satin dresses. I just No same. Same. Danielle: No, I'm really not my my body is not made for that. No, no, you can pull it off with other fabrics, so that's good Jaden: Sure. Danielle: too, you know? and an interesting thing I there's a lot of interesting things about Madeline, but what I really appreciate is she knew when to ask for help. Jaden: Now here we go. Danielle: What do you mean? It just feels like such a great parallel to life in general, of like, know Jaden: Mm. Danielle: when you are at your limit and you need someone else to step in. Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: her strength was in dressmaking and she knew that. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: And she preferred kind of subdued colors, but she also acknowledged, like, that's not always like I can't just put everybody in black and white or gray or whatever, you know. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: So she hired really incredible designers to create patterns to go on the fabrics or decorations. Like she knew I need to zhuzh this up a little bit, but it's not gonna be me doing it. That's not what my calling is. I need help. And that Jaden: Mm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: really helped her to expand her look and go beyond just this, you know. I mean, there's still simple silhouettes, but imagine if you're adding like a beaded belt or something like that. You know? Jaden: Accessories. Danielle: Yeah, yeah. So she was really I'd say self aware is what it seems like to me. Very much like here's my limit, here's where I need help. no. Yeah. Jaden: Hmm. this is a random question. I'm curious, like was there some sort of crossover with her or maybe she had an influence on like the flapper style era? Did that come up at all? Danielle: so she was working during that era and she was so I don't I didn't see anything about her kind of influencing that style of dress. I she wasn't really in that cut, right? Like that wasn't really Jaden: Okay. Yeah. Danielle: her thing. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, carry on. Danielle: Yeah. No, that's a good question though, because there is a lot of overlap with all this. So even within an era, it's interesting to see like, here's like the really elegant stuff though. Jaden: Well, and such like this is such an interesting period, like the you know, the post Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: n eighteen hundreds, eighteen nineties, sort of like evolving from the Victorian era to Danielle: Right. Jaden: to sort of this like women finding their own voices in a lot of ways Danielle: Mm. Jaden: and you know, just like the evolution of the fashion itself. That's such a pivotal time. So yeah, Danielle: Absolutely. Yeah. Jaden: tons going on. Danielle: my gosh, so much going on. And I'm sure, you know, with her pieces needing to not have a corset, and also that was a big part of 1920s, like flapper fashion, is this very loose dress where you're you're not probably wearing a corset underneath that. And like the wafish body was very in, you know. I'm sure it all kind of ties together and they're sharing pieces or parts of What's fashionable in different arenas, you know? Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: So not only though was she an amazing dressmaker and couturist, but she was also really instrumental in some of the labor practices and law that was set up in the time. So she helped introduce copyright laws for fashion design. Jaden: my god, did she know Francis Perkins? my god. We love a labor baddie. Danielle: Maybe. I bet they crossed paths. my god, we do. I wonder if she dressed Francis. I wonder though, she probably did. but yeah, so she was really instrumental in introducing copyright laws. I don't know exactly how those would work. It it feels very similar to music where you can't be so similar, right? Like either has to be Yeah, exactly, Jaden: Sure, like the the IP of it all, right? Mm-hmm. Danielle: yeah. And then she also instituted revolutionary labor practices for the time. So if you worked at her fashion house, you had paid holidays, you had maternity leave, Jaden: Whoa, what? Danielle: there was an in-house daycare. Jaden: Francis Perkins name's all over this. Danielle: I know, right? There was a dining hall Jaden: Okay. Danielle: and there was a resident doctor and dentist for her workers. Jaden: Okay, so like what time period are we in at this point? Danielle: So we're in like the 30s at this point. I don't know when she introduced all of these rules, but it's basically like she's established, She's successful, and is able to introduce these care practices, basically. Jaden: think this must have been influenced by some of the work that was happening earlier just because the Triangle Danielle: I'm sure. Jaden: Shirtwaist Factory Fire was in nineteen eleven and that's like the time that well, we already talked about all that. So I'm Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it's influence, but like, hey, that's actually what we should be doing. Jaden: No, it's awesome too. Well, and the the point I was trying to make is that that factory fire was a garment factory. So like we're Danielle: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Jaden: literally talking about the same people who suffered so bad. And so it's so Danielle: Right. Yeah. Jaden: great to hear like an actual outcome of that. That's Danielle: Right. Yeah. Jaden: very cool. Danielle: Yeah. That actually would be a great thing to dig into. Like the I Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: didn't see doing my dive, I didn't see a ton of details around the labor practices that she set up beyond like here's the list of things she offered. But I would imagine that if you were able to dig deeper or look into like her notes or something, it would be like, my gosh, they started these awesome things over here. We should do that. Right. Jaden: Like I can do this. I can actually bring these to my people. Yes, that's awesome. Danielle: Right. Yeah, I love it. The the other thing that this makes me think of, sometimes and I think this is more of a modern day thing. I don't know that this would have been the case then, but maybe. I have heard the argument and to some extent experienced it firsthand myself of workplaces that offer all of these things in the office are like a trap. Jaden: sorta like the golden handcuffs. Danielle: Yeah, like look, you can leave your kids here and you Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: can work later because your kids are here. And look, we're gonna feed Jaden: Right. Danielle: you also because your food is here. You don't ever have to leave the building. Jaden: Yes. Danielle: I think both can be true because Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: it is still really good to offer these things to people. Like at the time, how many people could even go to the doctor? Jaden: Or the dentist for Danielle: Or the dentist, right? Like, that's just not realistic for a lot of people. So to have that available at work at least means you can leave your work desk and go get Jaden: Yes. Danielle: your teeth checked out, right? Versus like today it does feel much more predatory. Thing right. Literally, Jaden: Yeah. Thanks, Meta. Danielle: because you're just trying to soak up every minute of my time. You're not doing it to help me. If you were doing it to help me, you'd let me have flexibility and Jaden: Right. Mm-hmm. Danielle: more paid time off or whatever. I just thought that was an interesting Cause I can remember Jaden: It does well, it's interesting 'cause it sort of like like the benefits totally make sense, but the roots that it sort of puts down are the s Danielle: Yeah. Right. Jaden: and where the outgrowth is is interesting. Danielle: Yeah, I think that's what it is. It's like the trajectory that it can take and then the weaponizing that large corporations can do today where it's like technically Jaden: Yes. Danielle: it's a benefit, but I don't need you to give me bagels on Friday. Or s you know what I mean? Like I Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: don't know. I have mixed feelings about that one. Because it's nice to give people perks, but also let's think of but actual perks, Jaden: Mm-hmm. But actual perks, you know. Danielle: right? Yeah. Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: So now we're winding down though on her story. the onset of World War II forced her to close her fashion house. And this was really common in Paris. Many Jaden: Mm. Danielle: brands locked up, closed up shop. A few stayed But many of them had to shut down. And Madeline was one of the ones that never reopened. So she closed her fashion house in nineteen thirty nine and she officially retired in nineteen forty. didn't make it back. Jaden: Huh. Danielle: as we've already talked about, acknowledged as the champion for that cut. You can see her Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: styles living on today. You can see how she's influenced many other designers. But she was never worried about being known as the it designer. It was never Jaden: Mm. Danielle: about like playing the game or becoming the most famous. And she's quoted as saying, you know, kind of about her role in fashion and what they call like the school, right? Like there's there might be a Vionette school, like the s the way of doing things in the Vionette style, right? Or you might have the Gucci style. Well that's Italian, but you know what Jaden: sure. Yeah. Danielle: I mean? She says, insofar as one can talk of a Vionette school, it comes mostly from my having been an enemy of fashion. There is something superficial and volatile About the seasonal and elusive whims of fashion which offends my sense of beauty. I love that. I love it. Jaden: That is really interesting. Danielle: Isn't that like that's a harsh critique, right? Like one of the biggest things for high-end fashion or couture is having different collections, right? And like, Jaden: Right. Yeah. Danielle: here's this season's look. This is this fashion week. And we're do it's offering up all of these different styles, making it very exclusive. And she seemed really annoyed by that. Jaden: T is I wonder if this is coming from a place of wanting more consistency or if sh like Danielle: Maybe. Jaden: she doesn't like the element of keeping everything like not edgy, like edgy, Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: but just different. Like not Danielle: Right. Jaden: always repeating the same patterns or doing the same thing and it's Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: like this is that I'm trying to figure out the root of that. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Well, I think part of it is probably, you know, she preferred a simpler style. She Jaden: Right. Danielle: she preferred subdued colors. Why would I reinvent that twice a year? Jaden: Well and I wonder yeah, okay, that so that makes sense. So she's kinda like, you know, we need to have this foundation and there's th Danielle: Mm. Jaden: why do we need to go wild all the time? Do we really Danielle: Right. Yeah. Jaden: need to be pushing the next boundary when we have something Danielle: Right. Jaden: that's really I mean, it's great and it works well and it's functional Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: and it's fashionable. Danielle: Exactly. Yeah. I feel like that's that that's what stood out to me of like just kind of pushing back on that. But also having to play the game because to be considered a couture Jaden: Right. Danielle: house, you had to have collections. You had to have that fancy shopping experience. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: You know? So she did have to play the game, but I could also see this drive of look, my look is a simple bias cut. I'm not Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: changing that. That's my standard. Jaden: I mean, I guess, you know, if I was to equate that to some modern time or Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: like workplace I'm gonna use the word adjacent again. That'll be the third time this episode. Clearly I have been. I'm so repeaty. Danielle: Ooh. I haven't been counting. my god. You're so businessy. Your synergy is so good today. Thank you. Jaden: Eu Okay, I don't remember where I was going where was I going? something was adjacent. the modern Danielle: no, I'm sorry. workplace adjacent. Jaden: workplace. okay. Actually it is. No, that's exactly where I was go baby, read my mind. You know me so well. Danielle: Is it about AI? Because I feel like that would be a good segue. Yeah. I was like, that's where my head goes. my god. I know. Jaden: yes. So the the the modern equivalent, right? Like it's Danielle: Mm. Jaden: sort of replacing everything that we have worked really hard to refine or create Danielle: Right. Jaden: and use as like foundational practices, and then we there's that sort of we have to chase everything shiny and we have to Danielle: Yes. Jaden: make everything much more efficient, but then you're sort Danielle: Mm. Jaden: of creating new problems just to be able to fix them. And Danielle: Right. Yeah. Jaden: I could see a version of that in her mind where she's like, this works well. Like, do we need to sort of like peat and repeat but slightly differently every, you know, like, where the where's the drop off? Is it in the efficiency? Danielle: Right. Jaden: Is it in the love for the style? Is it just this Danielle: Mm. Jaden: sort of like I have established and I don't feel like I need to continuously redefine this over and over Danielle: Right. Jaden: and over. I just want to keep moving forward. But Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: maybe that is her version of moving forward is just kind of having something that is so concrete that it it's It's its own like little moment in time almost. Do you know what I mean? Danielle: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jaden: And I think that as we sort of evolve in our roles and our jobs and all of those things, it's almost like an instability factor where Danielle: Mm. Jaden: you kind of can't rely on the the old way, even if Danielle: Right. Jaden: it works really, really well, because there's always gonna be somebody hungry for the next way of doing things Danielle: Right, Jaden: you have to deal with it whether you want to or not. Danielle: Yep. Yeah. I think that's spot on. And I wonder too if like like what stands out to me, and like I had a comparison to AI in my mind as well, is like you lose what I think, and so much of this is subjective, right? Like fashion is fairly subjective. It's you Jaden: absolutely. Danielle: know what I mean? Like it's it's this person's vision and like does that align with who I what how I see myself or how I want myself people to see me? But Jaden: Right. Mm-hmm. Danielle: I think you lose Or maybe she was worried about losing, and what I think we lose with AI is the sense of beauty, right? Like she talks about this offends my sense of beauty. And I think when we're over-engineering or over-correcting things, Jaden: Mm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: we do lose that beauty, you know? If your first instinct is, Let me check Chat GPT, you've lost the beauty of thought. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: of independent thought, of your own creativity, of your ideas, Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: right? Jaden: And it's like people sense, like you said, it's all subjective, right? But Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: some I I do think that there is an element of beauty in the sort of originality factor where Danielle: Absolutely. Yeah. Jaden: once you have replicated or recreated or whatever so many times, Danielle: Mm. Jaden: I mean not even that many times, it loses its luster. It's not that Danielle: Right. Jaden: thing that's sort of I don't know. I think that's why vintage just will always be. Mm, mm. Danielle: Anyway, that's what I have on Madeline Vionette. I love her pieces. It's just beautiful stuff and I yeah. I don't know. It was it's just really interesting to hear about this stuff and then to think about how my own wardrobe is maybe influenced. I love a good pattern, but Jaden: yes, and you rock a good pattern. Ugh. Danielle: And a pop of color. Thank you. So maybe her stuff wouldn't have worked very well for me. Also I can't get away with satin very well. But a drape? I love a drape, you know? So yeah. Jaden: Same. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have me. I'm like, just give me the black clothes. I love a black. Danielle: You're like grunge forever. Jaden: Yeah. That's the really Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: wonderful thing about us, is the dichotomy that we bring. I love it. Danielle: I know. It's really beautiful. I do feel like we need like a fashion shoot or just a photo shoot where we bring the fashion. really showcasing our different styles and personalities, Jaden: I would like that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Danielle: but like how beautifully it works together. Yeah. Jaden: yeah. Well, next time I'm in your neck of the woods, should we should we flip over to the tip of the week? Because Danielle: Yeah. What do you have for us? Jaden: well, it's very ironic because I totally picked my tip of the week without knowing your topic. I swear. And my so Danielle: No way. I'm seeing it in the notes and I'm like, are you kidding me? Jaden: I know I wrote it in there so I wouldn't forget and then I read yours 'cause I intentionally scrolled down so I wouldn't look at it. And then I was like, no way. So I know. Well, you know, I Danielle: I love that. We're doing a really good job of surprising each other. As a side note, I'm really impressed. Jaden: I just don't want to not be surprised, you know? Danielle: Yes, I know. Yeah. Jaden: so my tip of this week is dress up. go put your most fun, outrageous. Danielle: Yes. Jaden: Is it sequins? Is it like faux fur? Is it something Danielle: my god. Jaden: like I don't know, kind of scandalous? Whatever it is. Put it on. Accessorize, put some makeup on, you know. This is applies Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: to men, women, non-binary. Doesn't matter. You can wear whatever the hell you want. Just put on. Danielle: Everybody should be fancy. Jaden: Yes, and you should feel that fire, you know, like put the thing on Danielle: Mm. Jaden: that makes you feel confident and fun and wear it on a zoom call Danielle: Yes. Jaden: because like you know, I just there's too many days lately that I have Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: not been doing that and I've been showing up just not on Zoom calls necessarily. Well, actually a lot of Zoom calls. Danielle: In your DraftKings s Jaden: do that thing because I keep showing up in sweatshirts and my jammies and I realize that Danielle: Mm. Jaden: the days that I don't and I actually like take the minute to get myself a little bit ready and put on something fun, I usually am like a little bit more energetic and I just kind of Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: like, okay. This is cool. Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: This is fun. And it's, you know, why the hell not? That's all I'm saying. And maybe Danielle: I love that. I think Jaden: for you that does mean a sparkly sweatshirt and something kind of just cozy. Danielle: Mm. Jaden: Go for it. But I'd just say whatever makes you feel confident and like ready to go, that's that's your day. Do that today. Danielle: I love that. And I think it's even more important when you are just on a Zoom call Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: because you're just in your house. Shoulders up, let Jaden: Shoulders up, baby. That's it. Danielle: somebody see your amazingness. Like your clothes are not going to wear themselves. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Right, exactly. Danielle: that's a really great tip. And I love that it ties in with today. And yeah. Wear the outfit. I love it. Wear the outfit. Do it. Yeah. All right. Thanks for listening. Yeah. Bye. Jaden: Wear the outfit, ruin the workplace, and your most fun output. Until next week. Yeah, we'll see you later. Bye.