Latest / Coconut Justice / CJP #77: Adam Dunigan ( VA-8 )
Transcript
- Carlos: Hey everybody. Like we said in the intro, Adam Dunnegan is here. What's going on, brother? Adam Dunigan: Hey, how's it going, Carlos? Carlos: Doing good. So you're out in Virginia. Adam Dunigan: Yes sir. I live in Arlington, like the very eastern end of Arlington. ⁓ if anybody knows the D C area Key Bridge that goes between Virginia and Georgetown in D C. That's basically where I live. So I can see the district from across the river. Carlos: ⁓ wow. Is ⁓ so like when all these weird things in D C is happening, like you basically have a front row seat to like all the shenanigans that's going down. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, just recently we were recording ⁓ painting we were recording a social media video from side of the river and from the other side of the river of the barges they're setting up for the Fourth of July fireworks show. For anybody that doesn't know about this show, it's ridiculous. ⁓ they're gonna waste a bunch of money and time going for a world record for a fireworks show and it's just kind of morally offensive considering the social and political context we're in right now. So yeah, I can see all the shenanigans across the river. Carlos: Hey, what's good? Adam Dunigan is a Marine veteran that served in Afghanistan and Iraq. He went on to work at the CIA and now he's running to be the candidate for Virginia's 8th District. He may be new to politics, but he has a lifetime of service to this country. This is my conversation with Adam Dunigan Before we get into it, remember to go to coconutjustice.com to get you some clothes that I think would look good on you. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's funny how we don't have money for anything, but all of a sudden we have money for all these weird parties and makeovers and facelifts and Data centers and li You just got done saying that we're poor, that we're a failing country. Not you, Trump. Let's go. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean th these are the same you know, the the people we have in power right now, at least the conservatives, these are the same ones that are like, Well, these kids, you know, wanna wanna wanna get a financial future ahead of ⁓ They shouldn't complain about inflation or or or living or affordability. They should just stop buying so much avocado toasts. And like literally this fourth of July is just political avocado toast. It's super annoying. Carlos: And that's what's funny. Avocado toast and like bean sprouts and all that stuff is is associated to like California and California being soft and all this stuff. And those are the same clowns that don't realize like we got hillbilies here too. We got shooters. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Okay, we got good old good old boys in the hills of California, yeah. Carlos: Were you born and raised in Virginia? Adam Dunigan: Nope, I actually am in Angelino. I grew up ⁓ my teen years in ⁓ in Los Angeles in Redondo. ⁓ and then before that I was actually I was born in Australia, fun fact. ⁓ I I don't remember anything about Australia, so you No, I got two American parents and I think that's that's still okay. But don't ever put that evil on me, I'm not running for president. Uh-uh ⁓ never, never never never. No, I'm a line. Carlos: ⁓ cool. So there goes a present presidential run. ⁓ Don't put that be evil on me, Ricky Bobby. Adam Dunigan: Now people say this, it's it's actually a really funny part of running. So my my race here in Virginia's eighth district, which is Arlington, Alexandria and Falls Church, it's just like basically the D C suburbs. People say all the time, like, Well, your incumbent is really well liked and you know, you never win your first time, but you know, you could you could run again or you should look for higher office, you know, you sh you could be looking at Senate or Governor and like, look at the way you speak. And I get so irrationally angry because one, things are really bad right now, we probably don't have time for that mentality of just like, let's wait one more cycle because things, you know, people need help now. ⁓ Carlos: Mm-hmm. Right. Adam Dunigan: And then the other part of it is I think the idea of running for office with your eye on the next higher office or you know, a long term incumbency in office, like that's kind of what's killing this country. So in the same breath people will condemn the system not working well right now, but in the next breath they'll be like, ⁓ but you'd be so good in that system. Like it's kind of insulting. Carlos: Yeah, that's one of those back-handed back-handed compliments. Now that everything is ruined, go ahead and take your chance. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, why not? Fuck it, kid, go for it, yeah. Sorry, can I can I swear on on this? I I I won't. Yeah, yeah, very good. Carlos: ⁓ of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I can't help but swear. Especially these days. You're the like When you look at the folks that are s that have supported and are and after everything that's happening, they're still supporting the things that are happening. Cause it's for me, it's always been bigger than Trump. It's Trump and all his all his lackeys. ⁓ this this whole group of crooks. It's just weird to see that people are still supporting this. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yeah, I I think about this quite a lot. The way the way I approximate politics right now is that the reason you don't see more pushback And the reason you don't see people more outraged like we feel ⁓ is because they are just doing in the open what people assumed politicians were doing behind closed doors anyway. You know, they they just assume that this is the next worst iteration of something that was happening for a long time. You know what? Maybe that's true in certain cases in certain regards, but it is not true generally. Like there have been some really good servants of the Republic in elected office over the years. It's just it's really sad to see the hollowing up the credibility of public. Carlos: ⁓ yeah. Adam Dunigan: public service in general, especially in elected office, it's kinda gone. Nobody trusts in institutions anymore. That's kind of why I'm running and that's been the character of my campaign. For anybody not familiar, I'm getting in and I'm promising an adult Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: In the room, a hand on the wheel, and also a knee on the ground. Sacrifice as part of public service. So my my I have this political ethics pledge that I'm putting in the beginning, which I I think could be somewhat of a game changer if I get elected, which is saying I'm self-term limiting, you know, even if the law tells me I don't have to get out of the way, I still think part of doing the job is getting out of the way for the next generation of leaders. I'm committing to radical financial transparency, just like twenty four seven access to my personal finances, so you can see exactly what I'm doing with my money. care and free clinics. ⁓ I don't think that's gonna solve any of the budgetary problems behind those things. But I do think it's a form of contrition that will make immediate sense to the electorate and that's the kind of contrition that the government has to show people right now. And so even if I wasn't the government when all these problems were created, if you get into office this is the kind of thing you gotta do to make people trust in their government again. Carlos: Yeah. We let crooks take over the government and the crooks are pointing at crooks on the other side and they're all on the take and they're looking at us normal folks and saying, You see, they're crooks, and everyone points over on that side, and then everyone over there is a crook, and everyone then points over there, and nobody like nobody's making the connection that It's the the the group that's made of crooks keeps pointing at themselves and Adam Dunigan: It's like the Spider Man meme, like everybody pointing at each other. Yeah. Well, they also they they equivocate too, and this this kills me. ⁓ so you know, when when either side of the aisle or even intra party, when people lob the grenades at each other, they're saying that person is a crook. ⁓ and the other person can defend themselves by saying, Well, no, everything I did was completely legal. Check my FEC bull, whatever. ⁓ Carlos: Yeah ⁓ Adam Dunigan: We we have lost the distinction, I think, in American society between what is morally right and what is legal, because legal does not mean right. Even if it's legal to Exactly, legal is just the the boundaries we put on ourselves and the the standard to which we hold ourselves. And if we're not holding ourselves to a true moral standard that, you know, can withhold scrutiny, Carlos: Slavery used to be legal. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: of the law, then I I think that's still a a moral failing of this country. And maybe after political generations of moral failings, it's not super surprising to see such dark examples of moral failing at the head of government. Carlos: And it's a it it it's our culture. We let crooks change our culture to the point where it's ⁓ society is breaking. And we continue to fund everything that's breaking society. Back back when I even remember when I was alive, we used to build Americans up and we used to build things in America and you know, everything America not America first because they've bastardized that whole thing, but we used to take pride in building things. We used to take pride in education. We used to take pride Like the army was the army of us. And all of a sudden it turned into the army of one and and all this corny. single single I don't know where only one person can win. Adam Dunigan: It's a it's a zero sum game and there's been an individualization of American society. We we're always like, you know, in our minds, our own minds, like a very rugged nation of, you know, self determination and class mobility, et cetera. It was never exactly true at any given point, but it was more true back then than it is right now. And it's also it's the facsimile of patriotism right now that kills me. Yeah. Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: You got politicians that trample the constitution, trample the flag, and then they'll go and wrap themselves in that same flag every eighteen months appealing to veterans. That's the big thing, big deal to me. So I joined the Marine Corps when I was eighteen. That started when I was a kid. I was in Afghanistan. ⁓ I would eventually go on to be in the Central Intelligence Agency as a case officer. So like I put in for the country. I did some pretty hardcore stuff, which I thought was in the Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: stage now and our our our Americ the American military's hollowing the joke that we got in the Secretary of De ⁓ in the position of Secretary in the position of Secretary of Defense. It's yeah, it's it's a reducto ad absurdum and it's not in favor of the American people. So I can't really blame the the further left you go on the political spectrum, I can't blame people as you get further down that spectrum for being anti-American. I hate it, but I understand the impulse, right? The America bad as a first principle ⁓ that that exists on the left is is counterproductive and I think it's untrue. But it is slightly a shade more intellectually honest than Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: the America, the the Merca fuck yeah, this is this is a land of white Christians and we we had dominion over over the animals and the savages. Like that that kills me. That is fundamentally in opposition to all of the principles of our founders and the Constitution. And they can justify anything using that mentality and they can ignore everything that's supposed to make us unique as a country. Kills me. Carlos: Ha ha ha. And I don't agree that it's y well, how do how do I say this? When the right looks at what's happening to the left right now and and it seems like the left is anti-American and they're not. They're anti that American, right? And no one on the right seems to point the fingers back at obviously they don't, but they don't pay the point their fingers back at themselves saying, Well Not supporting the inner city, not supporting the black and brown communities, that's anti-American. But yet when they're sending ice into the streets and they're beating black and brown people up with cops and tanks and dump shit, then that's anti-American. And to me, that's worse anti-American than than having these. These folks over on the left saying, This isn't the way we should be running the country. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a false equivalence when when people mostly on the right are saying like, Well, the far left and the far right, they're just the same. It's horseshoe theory. It is not because you know, on the far left, I can understand that conservatives might be annoyed that we wanna counter ⁓ we wanna ⁓ form like gender acceptance or trans issues or whatever, but like it's not like trans issues are coming to small town America to murder this white people on for for exercising their cis whiteness. It's just It's fundamentally different and it is really, really scary to see these otherwise self styled, you know, decent Americans championing the creation of American brown shirts, ⁓ or completely turning a blind eye to the disappearing of Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: citizens and non-citizens off the streets of America. it was it was a dark day in my opinion, ⁓ when Renee Good got shot, you know, the first ice murder. The the true ice murder. You know, we can see it we can see it happen and to have the White House come out and lie about that was something. But then watching the video for any of the any of us that served overseas in I Iraq and Afghanistan, you know, like I I think back to all the eighteen, nineteen year old kids that were in the same position in the war on terror as these ICE officers are. You know, they they give you a gun They give you a flag on your shoulder and they tell you you're doing the right thing. I can empathize up to that point. What I can't empathize though is eighteen and nineteen year old kids with an ⁓ four standing a checkpoint in Iraq with a V bed bearing down on them had better trigger trigger discipline than federal law enforcement officers Carlos: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: against their fellow citizens. That's not okay. And that shows you how far morally we've fallen as a country. And to have these lunatics in the White House lie about it, cover it up, shuffle it, it's not it's not something we can allow to fester in society any longer. We've reached the breaking point and I really, really hope that electorally we can correct the record and put some morality back at the heart of American society. Because if we don't, I really fear what comes next in twenty twenty seven and twenty twenty eight. Carlos: We're seeing the the the blooming of it here in twenty twenty six. We're starting to see that it's going to be a if unchecked, it's going to be a madman and all his cronies that are bullies and they're going to bully you into your house and you're gonna do exactly what they say, how they say, when you want or w how when they want. And folks don't folks don't seem to see this weird creeping. Is it that they actually is it that they don't don't see it or is it because their team is making the rules and they're going along with it? Adam Dunigan: There we they're I think it's a bit of column A, bit of column B on this one. So Republicans and MAGA self styled conservatives right now, which I don't know what they're conserving because they definitely don't seem to be about small governments or small budgets or any of the above. Anything that that the party of Reagan or the party of Lincoln seemed to believe in, they have thrown all that shit out the window. ⁓ but on the Democrat side, we actually are suffering from the boiled frog syndrome as well, or at least an obstinance that is counterproductive. So Carlos: They're conserving crooks. Adam Dunigan: I race here in Virginia, my incumbent, who actually I he's a nice guy, like I really do like him and he hasn't done a bad job by the district, right? But he is about seventy six years old and he's got hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank and he's been in some sort of government office since Ronald Reagan. We keep doubling down on politicians that even if they did an okay job have still demonstrated a fundamental incapability Carlos: Jesus. Adam Dunigan: countering or proacting, preempting any of the worst impulses of the current administration or the previous Trump administration. You know, it's not like this is a flash in the pan. This is ten years now that we've had to put up with this political generation. And we can all talk about when the darkest timeline split off back in the day, but it doesn't matter. You know the the end results of all the decisions that we've made the political generations that came before us in elected office, they created the conditions in which something like Trump could happen. And unless we are willing to confront that, to make ourselves uncomfortable, to confront the uncomfortable reality that we must change the inputs to the system before we can get different outputs, we shall continue the backslide. And that on the democratic side is the boiling of the frog or the plugging of the ears or putting our head in our sand or putting our head in the sand. And I don't I don't know how to scream it loud enough ⁓ that If we don't make the change now, we may never get the chance to change again if they really make a play for power in twenty twenty eight. The only way you disincentivize something like that in twenty twenty eight is making these lunatics think that they'll lose. And that's gonna require a massive, massive groundswell of support and momentum into something new. Literally anything new. I always say on the campaign trail, you don't have to vote for me. I would love if you did. Please do. But don't vote for that. Even if the he's a nice guy Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: Even if your chosen representative isn't the problem per se, he probably did play a role in the creation of these conditions, and there has to be consequences for that at the ballot box before there's consequences for that with, you know, ammunition and rifles. I really, really don't want to go that way in this country. And we could. It's more possible now than ever. Carlos: Mm-hmm. That's been my problem with not voting, but voting for different people. If you have been in office for 15, 20 years, that means for 15 to 20 years, you have been doing what it takes to get us to this point. Adam Dunigan: We're not doing anything to stop it, yeah. Carlos: Same. Same. To me it's the same thing. You're sitting there and you're enjoying the spoils. And this is what drives me crazy about the Democrats that have been in office. They sit there and they say, ⁓ the Republicans keep doing all these things. Yeah, you idiot, but you're still you're still benefiting. You yourself are still benefiting from the dumb shit that they're doing. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, I'm pretty sure your stock portfolio is still up. Carlos: I bet it is. I haven't seen anyone I haven't seen anyone who has been serving for for office in 20 years putting down their gavel or whatever it is that makes them special. And then they just walk out of the their their office, you know, and they're done with their service and they're like, Whoa, my life is in shambles. Adam Dunigan: This is yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they seem pretty well taken care of on the way out. Yeah. This is this is kind of the crux of what I'm trying to do, ⁓ philosophically in politics. I'm trying to reintroduce some element of sacrifice. ⁓ it is it is morally wrong, in my opinion, to enter office broke and come out a millionaire because what that means is you amassed wealth while occupying a position that was given to you in trust by your constituents. ⁓ Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: Th there are shades of w how much compromise one engages in to get to those points. But at the same time, we have to acknowledge it is it is a caustic influence on trusted institutions in our country. And our institutions, when functioning properly, are capable of amazing things. We forget about like the Pax Americana, the golden age of American policy, which wasn't a golden age for a lot of minorities, it wasn't a golden age for women, but it was still an example of a period where the US government was capable Of cultivating some of the world's greatest artists wh at the same time promoting and and achieving huge advances in technology, economics, ⁓ and prosperity for families across the country. We have been that country before. I think we can get back to it, but it is going to require a generation, and probably several generations, of politicians who are willing to take a knee and do what's best for their constituents and the country ahead of themselves. And right now, the citizenry does not trust anyone in their government to do that. And until we until we modify that Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: Narrative until we counter that narrative with some examples like me of people who are willing to take that knee for the benefit of all. I I I doubt that we can get the social momentum we need ahead of the worst problems that I keep talking about. And that's that's why like I I left CIA ⁓ voluntarily. I resigned about six months ago in protest because I I couldn't do it. I mean I white knuckled my way through the first Trump presidency working for the government anyway. And when the second one came up, I I had to go, I had to go do something else. I walked away at 17 years of federal service. three years shy of pension eligibility because I do think this is that important. That's an element of sacrifice, you know, putting skin in the game. That's what people need to see right now. And that's what none of us believe any of our politicians actually have right now. Carlos: Think the normal people have been blocked from actually seeing the sausage being made. And they all believe that all of you guys are crooks, they all believe that you're gonna say whatever it takes to get into office and you're gonna take over and you're gonna do all the same old things, but The cool thing about what we're doing, especially with social media, we're building these networks of people that are tired of crooks running the place. And we're able to reach out to you and to a bunch of other people that are running for for office. And there's so many of you saying, I promise I'm going to do this for the salary that is offered. I don't need the miljuns of dollars coming from these packs. But we need to hammer away at the people that are convinced because again it's the culture. We've been we've been taught that politicians are smarter and they're make better decisions, but they're all crooks at the same time and ⁓ so ⁓ it's darkest before the dawn, and I think all of us reaching out and connecting and staying connected and talking things out and sharing ideas and all that stuff, what a true democracy is supposed to be like, this is us putting in action that new we're the the change in culture that needs to happen for us to be a a viable kind country again. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, yeah. To to come at policy from a place of compassion in real politic again. Yeah. It'd be nice if we got back to that. This is yeah, this is ⁓ I I call it like the the descent of disappointment, right? So Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: Optimism after some disappointment breeds skepticism. Skepticism after some disappointment breeds pessimism. And then pessimism ultimately ends up in cynicism. And we are at the cynic period of American politics. This is I I I made my political ethics pledge as part of this campaign as a rubric by which I want to be held Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: I want to be held accountable over the course of my tenure in office. So I've already committed to those voluntary term limits. So if I try to run for a fifth term, I said four limits, so eight years. So if I try to run for a fifth term, throw a Molotov cocktail at me. I I future Adam has broken his promise to himself to pass Adam, right? If I if I start taking corporate money, if I start taking PAC money, you know, vote me out of office. You know, I'm giving you the standards by which you should judge, I think, every politician. You can definitely judge me. And if I break those rules, then vote me out and put somebody in who will meet the standards that you deserve. I t this is just such a no-brainer to me, but it's y you'd be surprised. It's wild to hear when confronted with me in my political platform, just how obstinate, just oppositionally defiant ⁓ people become. It's almost like they become ⁓ institutionalists where they weren't before, just because they don't I seem to have things pretty figured out and I I I speak well and I'm I'm maybe I look a little bit too young for them. So you'll see these people who will criticize up and down the the current problems that we have, who will acknowledge that they are the result of systemic failures of the Democratic Party in the past. But then when you bring ⁓ to the choice of like voting for something new, they're suddenly defending the concept of term limits. They're suddenly defending the fact that that, you know, ⁓ well like well good politicians can engage in corporate pack money. Well like no man, you can't Carlos: Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, no. Adam Dunigan: Like we're we need to completely rewrite the rule book, and that's what I'm trying to do. And that makes people really scared. It's disruptive. I get it, but it's super frustrating. Carlos: No, I'm glad you said disruptive. I d I'm I used to work in Silicon Valley, blah, blah, blah. And and one of the things that they preach in this culture is move fast and break things. Isn't it funny when it comes to moving fast and breaking things for the benefit of the majority of Americans? No one wants that change. But when it comes to doge dumb shit, everyone's like, yeah, let's rip off the band-aids. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yep. ⁓ yeah. Well th this is this is one thing you gotta tip your your hat to to the the MAGA crazies because they're really good at taking a kernel of truth, a a tiny bit of a true thing that sits at the heart of people right now, and then spinning that out into this narrative that's completely divorced from reality and using that narrative to get behind ideas that are fundamentally harmful to the American government, to the American electorate, and to our place in the world. Doge is a great example of this, you know? I was a federal worker. I was working both overseas and domestically, between military, CIA, foreign embassies, that kind of thing. I have seen, personally, a lot of fat to be trimmed. You know, there are areas we could make more efficient and we could re engage ⁓ or or reimagine our policy fiscally and on the world stage. Like Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: is real wonky, but like overseas foreign facilities. I don't think you'll need anybody who's worked for State Department, CIA, USAID, that wouldn't agree that some consolidation of facilities makes a lot of sense because we have a bunch of dumb old buildings that we don't need in a lot of places, military too. ⁓ so an office of government efficiency, if they were operating in good faith, would probably go to these places, take a real stock, do some sort sort of like continuous process improvement project in these areas and streamline down so we can have a smaller budget, a more agile government. And still have resources and personnel to go do the mission of America. But instead, they let a bunch of twenty two year olds off Twitter come in and ruin the careers of thousands of people who are experts in their field. You had PhDs being dismissed by these political appointees who who didn't even belong in the buildings that they were in, let alone to be in charge of them. It was it was insane to me. And it's especially in my district with so many federal workers living in Arlington and Alexandria and False Church, like I j it it's enraging. And nobody in the Democratic Party Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: aside from some sternly worded tweets, has really given a full throated defense of just how morally outrageous it is that this happened to them. I'm I'm trying I'm trying to fix that, you know, I got ideas as part of my platform of reconstituting some sort of ⁓ US soft power foreign aid mechanism and what that could look like. I'm in touch with a lot of people. ⁓ Nicol Nicholas Enric, who just wrote the book on the the destruction of USAID, and I've had chats with him. I'm doing my homework to make sure we can march on this as soon as we get in the door, because that's another part of political strategy that we have failed at as Democrats, right? Republicans walked in with tw project 2025, and we're all having to live it right now. Some parallel institution on the part of the Democratic Party is well overdue. And you need somebody who can do their homework ahead of time so that we Carlos: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. I talked to, and I'm sorry I can't remember his name right now, and I'm not gonna say anything because I don't wanna misname him, but ⁓ he's a teacher and he's got 12 laws that he himself has researched and written and he's ready to go day one. So when you say things like, Yeah, I'm getting my battle plan together and and Adam Dunigan: So we can operate from day one. Carlos: Th that's the only time I wanna hear or the only time I've heard the the Project 2025 name in good news. And good news is we gotta we gotta go in with that same that same aggressive what what what did dumbass say? muscle velocity. Gotta muscle velocity. Or muzzle, yeah, muzzle velocity. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: I again I I look at the Democrats and I'm like, you guys have I don't understand why your politics doesn't go over well. You're trying to do better for the majority of the people. The Republicans have we're rich and we're white. Like you literally have everything else. How It just seems like they stumble through. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, this is what I'm I'm trying to hope or trying to solve with my candidacy. ⁓ I'm a very confusing progressive democrat for people because rincor, because CIA, because I have the haircut of a young Republican. Like I I get it. I I know what I look like visually. ⁓ thank you. Yeah. No, it's it's just I want Carlos: Yeah. ⁓ It looks good on you though. You guys should go to his website, go look at it. He's if if this politician thing doesn't work, you can go model somewhere. Adam Dunigan: ⁓ my ⁓ my my campaign photo on the website is so cringe. I look like such a serious asshole. Carlos: I saw that picture and I was thinking to myself, if I was writing a movie and I needed a CIA agent Adam Dunigan: ⁓ My ⁓ my campaign team is gonna roast me for this comment. Yeah. ⁓ No, so so I'm ca I'm confusing to them, right? ⁓ not only for the visual profile and the C V, but just like my vibe, 'cause like I still kinda like this country. I love this country, I want it to succeed, my patriotism is sincere. and there's almost like an apology that comes with any patriotism on the left right now. Carlos: Ha ha ha ha! Yeah. Adam Dunigan: I'm not gonna apologize for loving this country. I'm not I'm I'm more than happy to confront the complicated nature of our history and our failures to to minority groups of all sorts, but like, you know, overall I've been out there, I've seen how bad it can get and I've seen the kind of the kind of governments that really, really harm their citizenry. ⁓ in the former Yugoslavia, all over Africa, South America, which even CIA has very complicated history in South America, right? Like I can confront the nuance of our place on the world stage, but I can still confront the fact that we have a society we could and should be proud of. And I'm trying to build that again. You know what the Republicans are really good at doing and why they pick up Latino boats ⁓ and and military boats is because they don't apologize for their patriotism either. They should apologize for a lot of other stuff they do, but they do at least in style Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: appreciate the country. And when you get like I said further left to ⁓ to some of the the the tankies in in the the far left in the party, you do hear this America bad mentality that is a huge turnoff to that voter base. And immigrant Americans specifically are some of the proudest Americans of this country. They hear some of the America bad or the apologizing for America and it really, really sends them the other way. And I don't have a perfect solution for how to solve that, but I do think somebody with my background and the way I talk and the experiences I've had can make a lot of inroads of groups that would otherwise write us off. The other part of it I'm sorry, I'm kinda rambling at this point, but the other part of it is is is the mascotting that Democrats do, right? Democrats assume because they're trying to help ⁓ trans people, that trans people owe them support. They assume that they're trying to protect ⁓ minority groups from ICE or or Carlos: ⁓ no, no no no. Adam Dunigan: other ⁓ deportation enforcement mechanisms, so they deserve Latino support. They they they assume that because they have the moral position, that they will by default get the support of these groups, so they don't actually do the work to be there among them. They don't speak their language. They don't spend time amongst the community. And when in office, they're very, very rarely present in any meaningful way in the lives of their constituents in these groups. You know what trans people really want? To be treated like fucking Americans. Carlos: To be left the fuck alone. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, to to have their civil liberties respected and to not be mascotted by a party that ignores them eighteen months out of the year and then and then at the same time they just want to see some responsiveness from the people that are in office when their rights are threatened by you know the the opposite side of the aisle. We are two minutes too late to so many of those conversations and we gave so much oxygen to the worst voices on both the left and Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: The right because of captured media spaces, that it it just becomes a caricature of an actual conversation. I am hoping that because I have this aesthetic profile and this CV and the way that I talk, if I can be the kind of person that is out there amongst the people and these groups, not in a condescending, pandering, mascotting way, but just a human being around them, just buy them a beer occasionally, then we could probably work to reverse some of the narrative that is working against Democrats right now. Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: I think we are well overdue in having our conversation. Carlos: Yeah. It it would be easy for Democrats. Just do your work. Just do what you said you were gonna do. Adam Dunigan: Just just do your fucking job, man. Yeah. Carlos: Right. Like how am I gonna get mad at you if you fix the schools in my district? How am I gonna get mad at you if you if you provide small business assistance to people that are trying to open grocery stores and coffee shops in my neighborhood that might not be the picture perfect neighborhood for a goddamn Starbucks? Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yep. Or or how about just like using in like from office? How about just using your like social inertia from being in elected office to go like platform some local businesses in ways that they wouldn't get otherwise? How about like going looking past, you know, the next two weeks and looking at like what your district really needs, which areas really need, and just go spend time in those areas. Go like go like eat lunch every day in a different place around. Use the social media aspect, the the star power of of politics. Carlos: Just do your job. Go home and hang out with the people that you represent. Go figure. Adam Dunigan: Just just be amongst be amongst. Yeah. And you know, honestly, I can't put sh too much shade on incumbents for that because a lot of them, you know, they're fucking old. And they they probably don't have the the the vigor, the capacity to eat churning on the social aspects of of their political incumbency. So I I can't knock them for that, but I do think we could be doing a lot better if we had some some newer faces in in younger blood in the party doing exactly that. Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna go back to you being born in Australia. You ⁓ you worried about Trump trying to do away with birthright citizenship and all this stuff? Adam Dunigan: God yes. Yeah, I mean I hate it. If they were to deport me back to Australia, I guess I would have to drink foster and hang out with kangaroos. That sounds horrible, but ⁓ Yeah, no, it's it's an affront. It's an affront. And this is like you mentioned earlier, it's another example of like the fundamental un Americanness of so many of these policies. We built Carlos: Well, Ha ha ha! Adam Dunigan: nation, this the our constitution is founded on these values of like if you're here, you are an American, you know? And every American deserves the same level of respect, dignity, ⁓ and and full of truth from their government as any other American, no matter if you were naturalized, no matter sh if you were, you know, born here or if you're an American born abroad. It should all mean the same thing. And that's what was amazing about this country and our founding. If you go back and read some of the French political philosophers like Bonki, ⁓ from the French Revolution, you'll see like they used to write books about how amazing and avant the US government was, that the Constitution was. The French Revolution itself was like a really fucked up copy of the American Revolution because they were trying to institute the same values. That we seem to have codified and caught fire here. And again, that ignores a very complicated history behind the Constitution and the founding of this country, but it was just true. And so reading back through those tracts of from history that Lodz America as this land of progressive political thought, it's so wild right now because we seem to be on the on the you know backswing of that same pendulum where we seem to be going back to this nationalistic, isolated, non-introspective form of politics. That I think is killing the country. And I wish that if I could force everybody, you know, like brick orange with like the little things like this, I would I would make them read some of those those tracks of how other people thought about the US. Because for at least for me, it inspires me to make this country, to drive this country toward the way people used to see us, the way we used to see ourselves. And there's no simple solution for that, but it is kind of my goal in all this. Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's again, when I was a kid, ⁓ everyone loved America, everyone loved Americans, everyone knew that we were in it and we were a team. And if you if you if you picked with one, you picked with all. And it just seems like now you gotta go through like a a color chart to make sure if people are gonna stand up for you or not and like Adam Dunigan: Yeah. There's Carlos: It depends on where you were born and all this weird stuff. Like our our national pride ⁓ well, our national pride has been ⁓ commercialized. Now it's like, Yeah, America, you can go to ⁓ you can eat buffets, brrr. Adam Dunigan: Come on down to Golden Corral. Get your military discount, boys, and hate the Jews. I I really I bristle at all of this. The I mean Okay, so so I've been out there online recently. Fourth of July celebration, which again is a trap scene and it's fundamentally not represented in what we're supposed to be. That's true. But like if you want to see a micro expression of that same principle in action, if you go look at Secretary Heggseth's like style of dress with his WWE belt buckle and his little American flag pocket square that he wears all the time, the man is is a mockery of what a a dignified leader of the US military should be. And he's also breaking the flag code every single day, which would get any other soldier at least some like, you know, extra duty or something like that. I it's just we seem to have had this the commercialization of American patriotism and identity infect our society so much that like these little absurd aspects of its expression exist everywhere all the time. And fighting back that tide of Carlos: No. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: nihilism in the hearts of other citizens right now is really hard to do when they have so many visual reminders. I don't know the best way to do it. And half the time Democrats hate me because I talk just like this all the time and it makes them uncomfortable. But like I need to find a way to convince to convince people that that they reclaiming their own sense of patriotism and their participation in the republic and in the democracy of it all. that is the best act of resistance you can do at this point. So like, you know, you should take pride in voting. You should take pride in celebrating the Fourth of July, despite the moment we're at right now. Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: So that way next year and year from now we have something, you know, slightly better. We have a country that slightly more resembles the the values that we claim. So I don't know, man, I this is my first time. I've only been in politics for six months, but you can c clearly see I got the fire in it and I got that skin in a game and I'm hoping that gets me a little bit further conversationally with these people who've given up on the country. I wanna get ⁓ back. Carlos: What did you want to be when you were a kid? Adam Dunigan: I wanted to be a monster truck. It was very confusing. It's not a good not a good answer to put on your on your third grade homework. No, I wanted to be yeah, I wanted to be the monster truck. I used to I used to watch these these monster truck shows out in Pomona in in California and that was just what I wanted to be. Yeah. ⁓ no, I ⁓ I would say I didn't really I didn't really have a ⁓ super stable upbringing, so I had no like major aspirations. For a time I wanted to be like a Carlos: You wanted to be you wanted to drive the monster truck or you wanted to be the b Yeah. Adam Dunigan: filmmaker ⁓ and so I like would mess around but this is like pre YouTube days so I like mess around with like editing little videos that I would take of like my my family or pets or whatever. ⁓ and then I ⁓ yeah I barely graduated high school so I didn't have a bunch of opportunities coming out. I I dicked around in community college for a very short amount of time before joining the Marine Corps. ⁓ so military was never really my my goal, just what I did to to get out of LA. and I'm glad that I did. It's really worked out well for me and my life. But Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: But as far as like actual aspirations of what I wanted to be, I honestly don't have a a good answer for that. I I cycled through every through a bunch of things like only teenagers can do. ⁓ but I'm glad that I wound up where I did. I am proud of what I did professionally. Carlos: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Like Going from LA and then joining the military and being able to travel around and see the world and see how being a part of the military, y you have a front row seat to how you you are affecting not the United States, places outside the United States. And being able to see how the different cultures operate. And it it it's helpful. It's helpful to be a well rounded human, let alone someone who's running for office who's who I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about politicians in general. They say that they understand your struggles. They say that they understand where you're coming from and they come from the same struggles and all that stuff too. And a lot of times that's bullshit. But being in the military, understanding the magnitude of what it is to have such an elite military and then having a front row seat to seeing how it affects the rest of the world, I think is super helpful. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, you can take it ⁓ one of two ways. I always like to say the military doesn't like create good citizens. It it can amplify personality traits you already have, right? And so if p if you're a pretty decent guy, you probably work out you should you you'll probably discover like forms of your decency and ways that that can carry you through with resilience and everything else. Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: Or if you're a real piece of shit, it'll probably double down on any latent narcissism or whatever. And I know plenty of guys in the military that are like, ⁓ I'm the I'm the chief operator of the U I'm a US Navy SEAL sniper with four hundred confirmed kills. I'm coming, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They wear it like a letterman jacket, and that's always very distasteful. but you're right, I do think if you especially if you've deployed and if you have a combat deployment, like you you've definitely been in a situation that is very specific, you know. Carlos: I shot all these guns and I shot a tank and all this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: complex hotel environment. We know how to operate hopefully. and ⁓ coming back when you see the problems that face the US, you can probably think in more complex ways or a little bit cooler under pressure. ⁓ Than other people can. I think that's a good thing. I don't think you should have to serve in the military to be an elected office, but I do think it is generally an asset. Unless you're one of these guys that's wearing the f wrapping themselves in the flag and wearing the military like a letterman jacket every day, which which I think for for normal veterans like you and I, like, I don't know, man, like we get pretty annoyed by that. There's ⁓ I got a I got a funny story that I always tell on the campaign trail about ⁓ the difference between Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: my mentality and one of these letterman jacket types where there's a guy that I was running against briefly. ⁓ he he has dropped out since, ⁓ but he he was an officer, he was a w he was a West Point grad. I was an enlisted Marine. Very different mentality. So when I get up to do my stump speech, I'm always like, Hey, I was in the Marine Corps, I think it gives me this mentality. This is what I want to do with that mentality. Dump. And then some of these guys, and this guy included, they get up there and they're like, Well, I was the best officer ever. And he gave this story about like why people should vote for him. And he said, Well, it's because after I graduated West Point, I went to Kabul, Afghanistan, and I stood up the US Army's first counterinsurgency training center, and we trained over a thousand officers. And in this room, everyone claps. And I was I was in the back having like an out of body experience being like, Well well did did we counter the insurgency? Did w did we win that fucking war? I don't I don't think we did, unless I missed something. ⁓ and I that that is kind of the facsimile of patriotism, the facsimile of results in not the same thing as actual patriotism or respect for who we've been on the world stage. That is is I think even if all I do is move the Overton window just a little bit away from that facsimile, I think that's a service to the Republic right now. Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. I th I know of a guy that the incumbent I'm telling about six stories at the same time, my bad. So Bernard Taylor's running down in South Florida. The incumbent was I th ⁓ he was in the military, I don't remember which branch, but he got his legs taken away. ⁓ and Adam Dunigan: Yeah, no, yeah. Carlos: He showed up to work, and by work I mean he went into the halls of Congress wearing an Israeli army uniform. And they and they asked him, Hey, why are you wearing this uniform? He said, I wore my uniform, you wear yours. Adam Dunigan: Remember this, yeah. Carlos: And I was like What the pff what the fuck? And then come to find out that like you know, obviously there's a lot of politicians, all of them, not all of them, I mean both sides, where they have the one thing and then they stick to it, and then that's what drags them through a political career, and that's been his. His has been he he lost his legs in service. In my head, I'm like in service to who, but you know, whatever. Adam Dunigan: That's insane. Carlos: But come to find out he don't ever wear pants. He always wears shorts as a r so you can see as a reminder that he lost his legs to this for this country. But yet, dummy, you wear an Israeli uniform to work. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, yeah. So so I'm not gonna begrudge like ⁓ a a handicapped veteran especially that lost their legs for like talking about it rhetorically, you know, like I've come back from serious injury, I've been there in the explosions, like look what I've given for this country already. Like, I don't begrudge anybody that. But it does there for every single way that you can express this, it does hit a certain point where you're like, All right, man, come on. You don't we don't have to do this. There's also the impulse on on in Carlos: Yeah. I would love I would love it if he would have done the if he would have done all that and then he would have worn a US Army uniform into Congress. But like where what what are you doing, dude? Who exactly are you trying to represent? Adam Dunigan: It's it's it's like doing crimes and then trying to apply like apply logic retrospectively, like getting caught stealing embezzling from your company and when they're like, Hey, we noticed that you took all this money illegally. You're like, Well, I'm a veteran. Do you know what I sacrificed for this country? You should think it's not the same. It's not applicable. It's really weird that you did the one thing. It's really weird now that you're saying this other thing. I ⁓ I so I'll say I I've gotten heat the other way too and and I I I don't know if it's deserved or not, but with my CIA background, obviously there's some skepticism, cynicism about the intelligence agencies, which I don't begrudge anybody. Yeah, there's ⁓ shady histories to those things. I would say, you know, if I can push back lightly on anybody who sees things that way, ⁓ it ain't the movies and it's actually a lot more boring than you think it is. ⁓ but I I will also say that like some people will use will will try to use anything about their political opponents as a as a way to like drive a wedge or or make a criticism. If sometimes it backfires on them while so when people try to criticize veterans, I love when they clap back. And there's a lot of people who aren't veterans that are running for politics that are really pissed off that veteran status you know helps you in politics. It just does. ⁓ So so recently there was a guy who who who threw some shots at me in ⁓ in a in a debate format and the crowd like roundly booed him down. But he one of his things was like well well Adam Dunegan's CIA association, he wants to bring the Putin playbook to to to the US Capitol. And everybody like kind of fucking laughed him out of the room at that point, but then he you know he goes online with it. It's not that that interesting, but I I responded to ⁓ that like, okay, well like you can tear down my service all you want, but like if you are of the mentality that you're willing to like leave all of the tools in the toolkit on the table rather than use ⁓ to like take the country back and do what's necessary to stop the lunacy coming out of Washington right now, then that is why we are losing our country. And I think the impulse towards criticism and this impulse towards false false patriotism, they're two sides of the same coin and both of them are are killing us right now. Carlos: What what was it well actually, ⁓ r at what age did you did your family move from Australia back to United States? Adam Dunigan: I about three, I think. Three three years old. Yeah. I d don't I don't have any memories of of Australia, but ⁓ I do remember growing up in Southern California, that's sure. Carlos: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was That's what I was gonna ask. Like what was it like growing up in the LA area? Adam Dunigan: I mean, I love Los Angeles. ⁓ whenever I'm home, I I get all the nostalgia in my heart, but ⁓ I don't really think about it that much after I left when I was so young. I've actually lived in Virginia longer than I ever lived in California. I will say though, ⁓ I was a very different kid in my youth. So my my dad was a Vietnam vet, so he had some PTSD issues. My mom had some addiction and mental health issues. ⁓ so it was a rough childhood, which made me like kind of just an angry kid. And so I played in a bunch of shitty punk rock bands and and like, you know, would skip school all the time. Carlos: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's your instrument? ⁓ hell yeah. ⁓ there they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hell yeah. Adam Dunigan: and guitar, I got some guitars behind me if you can see them over here. Yeah. Yeah. I ⁓ I don't play so well anymore. ⁓ nor did I play well back then. Actually I just suck a guitar, that's what I'm trying to say. Carlos: I ha I have a guitar and I can't play a lick. Adam Dunigan: Man. Just like every every man. Every man has to have a guitar they can't play. That's a role. One of those things that happened on this campaign is I was always a huge metal head when I a kid, so like hardcore, metal, punk rock, all that. and Lama God was always one of my favorite ⁓ bands from back in the day, if you're familiar. ⁓ as part of the campaign I got the chance to meet Lamagon. Like they I met Randy Blythe, the singer, and he was he was a big fan. So he he got behind the campaign, he donated some money to the campaign, which was nuts, and then he hooked me up with backstage tickets to the kickoff tour for their new album. So there is a photo of me that somebody took from the crowd. I'm behind the soundboard and I'm just having like an existential experience. Like, ⁓ my god, I can't believe I'm here. Somebody captured me at the exact right moment. It's one of the favor my favorite photos that's happened over the last six months. Carlos: ⁓ hell, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I've heard of Lamb of God. I wanted to ask you, I wanted to go back to the transition from being in the Marines. How long were you in the Marines? Adam Dunigan: Years at the five years. Carlos: Five. how did the transition go from being a Marine to the CIA? Like did someone from the CIA say, Hey, I see you had a rough childhood. You need some friends? ⁓ Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yeah, no, Robert Robert Redford showed up on a helicopter and he was like, Hey kid, you wanna go kill some some Vietnamese? Yeah, no. It was I I got a business card during some of my travels when I was when I was in Afghanistan. And when I got out I found that business card and that took me to the rest of my life. ⁓ but ⁓ in the the transition was actually a bit wonkier than that. So I got out and then I briefly worked at the same community college that I used to dick around at when I was a kid. So I was a terrible student at this institution. I didn't really know much about it nor was I that interested. Then I left for the Marines and then after the Marines, ⁓ I got I got my degree while I was in the Marines, ⁓ still my bachelor's in social psychology. ⁓ Carlos: ⁓ cool. Adam Dunigan: So after I got out, I went to go work at the administration for this community college where I would do like business analysis, that kind of thing, because that was really like I did some of that before. and I got to discover as part of that like a true love for public schools and public institutions generally, because there's a whole nother side of education in our community colleges that is just really awesome and really good people, a lot of them sacrificing what salaries. They can get much bigger salaries at bigger institutions, but they're staying to help kids in these community colleges. colleges, it was it gave me a lot of respect. And that was so that was when I cleared up for my my top secret clearance and everything. ⁓ and then from there I went into CIA. But that initial transition from going like super hardcore you're in the Marine Corps to like a California community college setting. Let's say there was a bit of a disparity in mentality between a Marine and like a liberal arts teacher at a community college in Los Angeles. So I had to relearn some vocabulary, which I still slip on occasionally. ⁓ and I had to learn to stop swearing so much, which I clearly am still in the process of. Carlos: That's L listen, that's one of the things that when I got came out of the by the way, thank you for your service. ⁓ when I came out of the army, well, growing up, I was always just cussed at. Like everyone around me cussed. And then when I was in the military, I didn't have any parental supervision. So ⁓ every other word was the F bomb. And then when you go into corporate America, you're like They're like, you can't keep talking like that. So the d so when I tell people when you're in the military, they break you all the way down and then they build you up into a soldier and Adam Dunigan: What? Carlos: Words are gonna be bad. But then the transition from being in the military and then you're going into the private sector, like there's no there's no detox period. They're just like, all right, kid, couple pats on the back, go get We have to be reintegrated into society. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: You just taught you just taught us that you just taught us that conflict resolution is I'm gonna beat your ass until you realize what the hell I'm trying to tell you. And you can't really do that to Susan and you know in HR or anything. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, it's the it's the You can't you can't really like tell people to like drink water and walk it off anymore. Like you have to like take people's feelings into account and go through their process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See see the thing is is I would really I really like you know, a a certain sensitivity when you're we're dealing with each other. There should be gentleness and kindness and and whatever. But like when there's a mission to accomplish, we cannot accept excuses and we should keep in ratio. Yeah. Yeah, put your feelings away. This is this is what killed me about Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. You gotta put your feelings away. Adam Dunigan: working with so many different government agencies is that I would say in CIA it's a pretty like mission mindset, military mindset. There's still a lot more feelings than in the military, for example, but it's pretty good. But then you get into working with some of like the softer agencies out there, like ⁓ State Department or whatever, ⁓ where there's like everyone's feelings really matter and you gotta you gotta sit through these meetings that are just hours long about people discussing like how they feel about the implementation of this policy. And it just drives you insane because there's clearly a command commander with commander's intent and everybody is just talking around their feelings before having to go do the thing that we heard two and a half hours ago. That kind of like government inefficiency is just just drove me nuts when I was in. Carlos: And I'm glad you said that. The government inefficiency. So people that think that the government should be run like a corporation and all that stuff, you want to talk about inefficiencies? I worked at a software company. I was I was I was programming the ⁓ the f the front end of some software. And I got invited to a meeting. And the title of the meeting was What Do We Call the Mute Button? And we had this forty five forty five minute meeting and I'm sitting there and I'm listening to these grown adults who are very well educated wondering, ⁓ the mute button. What do we call it? What do we call it? And then after a while, after about forty five minutes, they look at me and they said, Hey Carlos, like you have any input? You've been quiet. I said, ⁓ might I direct you to the title of this meeting? Adam Dunigan: Seems like we solved it in the title, boys. Carlos: It was literally an email. Adam Dunigan: ⁓ If that ain't a metaphor for government too, especially 'cause just 'cause we it's a human thing, right? It's we are we're all somewhat process fetishists to a certain extent. It's just we have to tap that part of ourselves down. We also like it's not a bad thing to solicit input. Like, you know, the the committee approach does Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: actually, you know, bear bear fruit occasionally, but if everything is, you know, designed by committee, we move so slowly and we're we're we're so subject to the inefficiencies that crop up as a result of that. I I I want a more agile and and quick moving mindset in government generally. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, however, and like some period of consultation and some solicitation of outside opinion and outside perspective is a good thing. This was the intent behind DEI, which is now dead because of the Trump Trump administration, right? So DEI as a concept was a good thing. We do want to have diverse, equitable, and inclusive perspectives on the things on the problems that we're trying to solve with government. The Republicans and the Conservatives were able to spin the implementation, the imperfect implementation of DEI initiatives and ruin the entire program. Take out and remove of the good things that that sort of program can provide because they were able to point to some some like obvious inefficiencies or imperfect implementations. It really frustrates me that we have this zero-sum mentality and it takes so long to recover when we are set back from stuff like this. This is the kind of thing that I think a younger generation, just generally, whether they're Democrats or Republicans, would be able to have a meatier conversation about, more nuanced conversation about. Carlos: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: Or maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Like the young Republicans seem like little lunatics themselves too. Maybe I'm not. I just I wanna believe that like youth can save this country and I have to believe it. Otherwise, you know, what am I gonna do? Carlos: Ha ha ha. And the good news, well, the good news for being, you know, up in age, with all the mileage that I have, I'm like, well, if you guys keep fucking it up, I'm almost gone anyway, so you're gonna ruin it for yourself. I grew up in the 70s, but I love my life. My life has been incredible. I have seen some things. And if you guys keep going down this path, you're gonna ruin it for yourselves. I'm gonna be too old to give a shit. Adam Dunigan: I've had a kid, it's yours now. It was really put into perspective for me recently in like a really dark way. ⁓ my ⁓ the this this awesome woman on my campaign, she's a doctor, she's ⁓ she's real smart. She's she said it as such that like we don't have context. Nobody in power right now seems to have like the historical context or appreciation for just how bad things are. But you know who does is it's black women specifically, because older black women in some 70s, 80s. Like they have seen not only like the rise and fall of abortion access, but they've seen the rise and fall of civil rights. You know, they watched voting rights get gutted right in front of them after watching the tabling, the fight for and the passage of civil rights when they were young. It's kind of insane to see that, you know, like the path that we were on, that you could have predicted that we'd be on. None of them could have predicted that we would have fallen so short of the marks that we set for ourselves. That that sense of perspective, ⁓ and that sense of like, well, you know, fuck it. What's the point anymore? Like I really can't blame somebody with with that level of cynicism because it's justified, especially if you come from these demographics that have watched the rollback of your rights, so historical one. I'm a pretty standard issue white guy, so I can't feel their experience in the same way, but I can be pissed off about it by maintaining that historical context in my head. Carlos: No. Right. Actually acknowledging the empathy though. Having empathy and understanding that no ain't nobody in this country been fucked with more than black women. Nobody. I don't care who you are. I don't care how many times Trump says he's the most persecuted person and all this other shit. No dummy. No, it's not you. It's it's wild. It's wild. And and again, just because someone is not on your team doesn't need doesn't mean that they need to struggle. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. And just 'cause someone isn't on your team doesn't mean that you can't engage in good faith and try to have a dialect. See where truth actually lies between you. Like you can't just write each other off anymore. I have no interest in making overtures to the other side of the aisle because my values are my values. But I do think a lot of people, given how uncomfortable everyone seems to be with recent actions by the US government, a lot of people are uncomfortable in ways that they are gettable for the the moral side of history more so than they ever were in Trump one or during the Biden years. I think I think it's possible to provide a mission structure, or ⁓ sorry, a permission structure to to people like that to get them over to Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: The side of sanity and start building something proper. And like you said before in this interview, you're still like, you know, what are they gonna do? Are they gonna complain like when we fix schools? Are they gonna complain when they have access to healthcare? Like if we can use this moment of like chaos to achieve things, like we could get everyone we lost, maybe not everybody, but a big portion of the people that we lost back to sanity in part of a coalition that's durable enough to stop the swing of that political pendulum. I I hope that's the case anyway. Carlos: We Yeah, I'm I'm convinced. I'm convinced. I'm convinced that this you guys, this new this new version of politician that's coming out, that's saying, listen, there's a job that needs to be done. We don't think that it takes all these extra millions to do it. Mam Dani is a perfect example. He's like, We're gonna clean the subways, and he he went through and power washed all the subways. We're gonna do like this, we're gonna do like that, we're gonna have a grocery store instead of a liquor store, something like that. On the west side of west side of Chicago, if you it there's so many liquor stores and barely any grocery stores. So if we actually said this is what we wanna do, and we actually did it, it would be so easy to get people to tap back in. Adam Dunigan: I think if we if we are able to offer any modicum of ease or comfort at the time, you know, like any sort of positive iteration towards helping people is more than they feel like they're getting right now. And I also wanna bring back a government that can flex that that like if we try something and it doesn't work, we can just change it. Like that's the whole point of government. There's this mentality if we like pass legislation that it's permanent and it's gonna exist as is forever because it's so hard to get any other legislation passed. No, that's not how the founders envisioned this government operating. Like we should be moving a lot faster and we're not gonna get it right a hundred percent of the time, but we owe it to everybody to try. And if we wring our hands and we debate bills and we do these eighteen month to two year studies to generate a conclusion about the next study that we're gonna do before we draft a bill that's gonna be debated and kill like as long as we just keep killing people with like hoofing and lack of motion, then we are gonna continue losing the the engagement of the people we need most to be participating in this democracy. In Virginia, there's a great example right now. We had a legal cannabis bill that was coming up and it passed the the Virginia ⁓ state houses and ⁓ the governor vetoed it. My governor, Governor Spamberger, is a Democrat. She's a former CIA too, so she's ruining my brand. Thank you, Abby. ⁓ No, she vetoed the the legal cannabis bill because it wasn't ready yet, the markets weren't optimized, whatever. Carlos: Uh-huh. Adam Dunigan: Ignoring the fact that life just kind of sucks, like let people get high, give ⁓ their weed. It's doubly absurd too that like, at least in my district up here, we can just walk across Key Bridge to Georgetown t and go to a legal dispensary. Like government is so slow, and these are the kind of things that narratively people are seeing as it being unresponsive and unwilling to give ⁓ things that materially improve their lives. I don't I don't have a perfect solution for Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: any aspect of American society, and neither does anybody else. But I do have the solution to building back that narrative of momentum for Democrats. And it's doing shit. It's actually implementing changes. It's Mob Dani coming down to fill the pothole in front of that woman's house that he talked to at the beginning of the campaign. That's the mentality you need in office. And I can at least bring that. And you know what? Maybe I'll fail. Maybe I'm not the perfect person to be doing this. But if I do fail, Carlos: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: Then vote me the fuck out in two years and pick somebody who you think will be better after that. Because that in and of itself is a better function ⁓ a better functioning government than just leaving incumbents in forever. It's I'm I'm sorry, I'm just kinda rambling at this point, but it's frustrating that people more people don't see it in Carlos: ⁓ no, it's okay. ⁓ I like to think when when every time you say you feel like you're rambling, it's okay. Like I'm I'm the therapist for you guys. Adam Dunigan: Sorry. Yeah. ⁓ clearly there's a lot of shit going on in here. Carlos: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's right. And and and the benefit of your struggle trying to go through and and and get get this position in office is that is you're not paid off by all these packs that are gonna tell you no no no don't say that. So now we actually get to hear some of this inside baseball stuff. There's a lot of things from talking to you guys that I have learned that I'm just like, I'm baffled that things are still as clunky as they are and as frustrating for you guys. Like the change, the agents of change and you guys trying to break through this brick wall of establishment. corporate Democrats, corporate Republicans and all these morons that don't seem to wanna get out of the way. Your way doesn't work. It's only obvious. You gotta get the hell out the way. Adam Dunigan: That's the definition of insanity thing I was talking about before. You know, we have a system, it is creating outputs for us. We don't like those outputs. And so if you're putting the same inputs into that system and expecting different outputs, you are literally insane. That's that's the definition of insanity. So and I wish I you know what really breaks my heart, and I mean this very honestly when I say it on the campaign trail, it's like my human opinion. It's it's really sad how far we've fallen, not just in the behavior of our government or the Carlos: Yeah. You're you're nuts. You're nuts. Adam Dunigan: Polarization of society. It's really sad how broken our soul as a country is. You know, we used to be punk fucking rock. We used to be a people who were willing to take a risk every once in a while. We used to think creatively. We used to apply creative solutions and we used to stand on what's right. And I don't think there's anything coming out of this government right now that anyone can point to that harkens back to that that way we saw ourselves in the past. Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: I am trying to recapture some of that in my candidacy. Like clearly I will fully send it when I feel like there's something to be done because that's what sent me into the military. That's what sent me in the CIA and all the stuff I did there, and that's what sent me into politics, you know? I kept out my retirement. I walked away from a pension just to be here to like yell at, you know, sixty five year olds in democratic committee rooms. It's not dignified. But like at least you know this kid commits. At least he's willing to stand up for what he thinks is right. And if you think that ⁓ that I'm wrong and like if Carlos: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: I always tell people, if you think I'm wrong, if you think my political approximation or my assessment of the situation is off, tell me that. Explain to me why. I have not heard a satisfying answer yet, and it's not that I'm not listening. Carlos: People aren't There's something that's happened and I've been trying to research and chip away at it, but there's something that happened. It was probably never it was a I think it has something to do with the the fact that we never cleansed all the way after Nixon. We'd never, you know, like They were doing shady shit, got busted for it, and then got forgiven. But no one was ever strung up. For example, for example, when you're looking at the black and brown communities, if someone robs a bank, they string them up for everyone to see. So this is an example of what happens when you do this dumb shit. But no one ever got strung up. Adam Dunigan: This is I mean there's there's no consequences anymore in government it seems, or least that's the perception of, right? If if I did one fifth of whatever these guys are doing on a daily basis as a CIA officer, I would lose my security clearance, a hundred percent. Like I'd lose my security clearance, probably be walked into jail because you are literally divulging trade secrets and all that stuff, right? If in the military, you know, we acted like these these jokers in ice, then we'd go to the brig for murder, usually, right? Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: ICE officers get off. The the the White House officers can lie to the American people and still keep their security clearances access and prestige in their careers, right? Congress people can go into office broke and walk out millionaires and nobody bats an eye because they just expect that to be corruption. There's never any consequences. So that's that's been a big deal in my in my candidacy. I am trying to say I want to bring consequences back to government. I want to punish the different forms of corruption that are killing this country. If anybody breaks the law or violates the constitution, they gotta go. They gotta go to jail. They have to see actual legal consequence. But I also wanna punish failure too. And the Democratic Party, the capital D, has failed the American people Profoundly, and we're all going to have to live through the consequences of those failures for a long time. So if we're having to live through their consequences, I want the leaders of the Democratic Party to feel the consequences of their actions as well. And they never will until they lose their positions. We can't wait for them to quietly retire to their million-dollar, you know, third homes up in the Poconos. We have to remove them forcefully for people to believe that. Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: you know, actions do have consequences still politically. And that's I think that would also be a service to the Republic for candidacies like mine or some of the guys in the DSA that just ⁓ unseated those guys in New York or or the victory for the progressive out in Colorado. I think you know, there's there is a growing surge of electoral consequences for the institutions or the ⁓ you know the machine, the the corporate democratic machine and the old guard. I think that's really good. But we can't let that momentum peter out. You gotta get behind guys like me or other candidates around the country at this point, because we need everybody invested in the outcomes that we see. If we miss this moment, I don't know how many more we're gonna get. Carlos: I think that's why they sent Trump too. Cause he said early on, ⁓ he said, ⁓ basically, these liberals are coming after you. I'm the only one that's gonna be able to save your way of life. The thing is, he wasn't talking to poor white kids. He was talking to the rich people. He was talking to the rich people that continue to bend the rules and all these crooks. He was talking to them, and it's unfortunate that. Poor white folks continue to fall for his bullshit. He wasn't talking to you. He was talking to his friends. He doesn't care. You don't have enough money for him to care about what you have to say. Adam Dunigan: This is ⁓ it's another consequence or another result of like captured media space, some some cost fallacy, and also just identity politics. The the conservatives love to accuse Democrats of of playing identity politics. And it has been true at several points, but Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: Conservatives only play identity politics, the victim mentality, that ch they're coming to turn my tran my kids trans, they're they're trying to make all of my my my cars electric because they hate America like this. It's dumb wrapping yourself in the flag stuff. And then when it comes to Trump, like he validates the American id in a way that they have felt for a long time. Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: He does it in a way that is actually harmful to their own self interest, but they don't see that because they're so captured by Ria by by the media space. I think candidates like me in in red districts or redder part of the country should be going into these spaces personally to like shake hands, make eye contact and assure them that like not every Democrat is like trans Antifa tr coming to like take their guns away from them. I I think that is also going to be part of like let's say political reconstruction ⁓ in a post Trump era for sure. Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. I keep trying to imagine that. What's it gonna look like? Yeah, my guy my guy has one foot in a in a grave and w another on a banana peel. Adam Dunigan: No, he's ⁓ he's six foot thirteen and he only weighs a hundred and ninety pounds, and he's the healthiest president that's ever lived. We're all agreed about that. Carlos: He looks younger. Adam Dunigan: He's the Benjamin Button of presidents, yeah. Carlos: What was it like ⁓ working at the CIA? ⁓ Adam Dunigan: Interesting. yeah, intense for sure. It's not like I said, it's like the movies. ⁓ Carlos: Yeah. Is it mostly military folks or is it kind of like a mix between civilians and military? Adam Dunigan: There's a big military contingent, but it's mostly civilians, ⁓ people from everywhere. We got we got all sorts of different jobs, you got all sorts of d different demographics. ⁓ I am not the way like a cheerleader for CIA. I can I will criticize the bureaucracy, the lack of mission across the American intelligence agencies up and down. ⁓ the post the post post nine eleven intelligence apparatus was was a mess. Carlos: Okay. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: ⁓ and when we we had all the vigor to like fight the war on terror, there was I guess some coherence, but we also saw just how out of control it can get, right? When when Snowden made his revelations about the American surveillance state with the stand up of DHS, which you know controls the ice, which a lot of people don't even remember, like they don't realize that DHS only happened after nine eleven. It's never been an integral part of the US government, you know. Carlos: Yeah. After nine eleven, yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: So we basically we get spun up in the intelligence agency every once in a while with this like big crazy mission. What we don't have is a long term focus on preventing and shorting up defense against possible third parties. So China and Russia, for example, have never been our friends in the intelligence world. And yet get you can get you can get a president in there that has no understanding, no concept of foreign affairs or the history of these things, or possibly is a bought and paid for Russian asset, which I personally believe. Trump I believe Trump went to ⁓ in the eighties. I don't know if there's a P tape or not, but I would say it's real suspicious that that kind of idiot yeah. ⁓ Carlos: We know that there's a P tape, it's in the it's in the Epstein files. Is this not a Russian woman Adam Dunigan: Just it's it's a bit suspicious when when somebody like Trump, who clearly is just in kind of a dumb party boy when he's young, goes to Moscow and comes back and then is real interested in commenting on America's place in NATO. It's just it's pretty obvious to anybody reading the tea leaves, but whatever. ⁓ Yeah, the all I mean to say is that in intelligence working in CIA, it's really intense because you're you're having to do some crazy things to go collect information to keep America safe. You're also at the whim Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: Of whatever administration and whatever oversight from Congress comes down. And one of the reasons that I'm in office right now is I see ridiculous levels of unseriousness in the White House, but I also have seen over the years some some pretty deep incuriosity about the the field mission by leadership in Congress and their staff. Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: For the work being done by intelligence officers serving abroad. It's it's pretty horrifying to put your life on the line, to put yourself on the line, ⁓ and realize that nobody's listening for the stuff that you're trying to bring home. that has happened to to me and several colleagues that I know over the years. And it's one of the things that I do think a changing of the guard would would help alleviate in terms of our execution on foreign policy. I mean, go talk to any State Department officer, even, and they will tell you that these congressional delegations that come through their embassies. Or come for multilateral meetings, half the time they're having to like spoon-fiend them fifth-grade civics and history lessons about whichever country. Like there was one famous example where a Code came to Switzerland where my incumbent used to be an ambassador, and the the the Codel was like, Well, like where where are all the World War II monuments? Carlos: Ha ha ha. Adam Dunigan: Sir, Switzerland wasn't in World War Two. They neutral through World War II. It's kinda like their whole thing about being Switzerland and neutral. There's yeah, just just insane. Yeah. Yeah. It's a silly story, but it's indicative of the kind of like when you when you let people in to the the the chicken coop with no understanding of of foreign policy or the history of the context behind things, they are they are loath to act in the best interests of the the US or they're they're sometimes incapable of it. Carlos: We don't want none of that smoke. Yeah. So it's nothing like ⁓ I'm trying to remember the name of the show. but working for the CIA. ⁓ I was trying to rem it's she it's a it's a female lead. I think was it on it's one ⁓ on a one of the stri alias was that it? Adam Dunigan: Alias alias maybe? That was the big CIA one. Yeah, exactly. I was basically her. She is literally me. Yeah. No, I mean like you do some cool stuff. If you want if you want a good example of what it's like to work for for CIA, the best show to watch, I would say, will be like seasons one to two to three maybe of the Americans. Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: ⁓ it's it's shown from like the Russian perspective, but that's a pretty good example of the kind of stuff you're doing as an intelligence officer, I would say. Somebody who wrote that was like definitely in the room. So And then my ⁓ my favorite film for anybody that wants to to dive into like some of the absurdity, if you wanna know how like the favorite film of me and it all my my former CIA groom colleagues would be The Cullen Brothers Burn After Reading. Carlos: ⁓ yeah. I love that show. Adam Dunigan: Everybody should watch that film at least once. ⁓ it it has nothing to do with the job abroad, but ⁓ it is a pretty good example of like how dysfunctional and like what CIA is is interpreting from reading those sea leaves a lot of the time. Plus it's just hilarious. McDermott is is the goat and we all we all have to respect that. Carlos: ⁓ And if you don't agree, we will deport you. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yep, be ready. I got I got my congressional grudge list going. It's gonna be it's gonna be intense when I get in there. Carlos: So you did five years as a Marine and you did another twelve, was it, as a CIA agent? Adam Dunigan: Ca I have to be somewhat circumspect about the exact years that I worked for CIA, but I I spent some time, put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: Yeah. G okay. All right. I yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know the rules talking to a XCIA agent visit Adam Dunigan: I also don't brother. I I d I don't know either. Like I just I don't know that if I fuck it up, it's really bad for me. So I gotta be I gotta be I can't say exactly which years I was working for CIA. I can say it was it was a pretty significant investment of time. and ⁓ I I definitely had some experiences in there that were that were intense, you know, and Carlos: Okay. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: One of the things that I I really like ⁓ slash love about my my time in CIA is the foreign perspective, or at least teaching somebody to think from the perspective of somebody else who comes from a very different cultural context, language context, whatever, right? So I learned I learned a few languages. ⁓ I had to operate in you know, abroad in these countries with those languages. I ⁓ when you learn a new language, like fluently, right, ⁓ you definitely do adopt some of like the the the mental traits or like the the thinking traits. Carlos: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: Heuristics in those languages. You also learn to translate your own thoughts into ways people can hear it, which I think is a really good thing for a politician to have. The flattening of this issue would be like, well, I was not manipulate people, which is absolutely true. But what you want in a politician is the ability to convince people of the right thing to do. So you want a moral person with the kind of skills to get a point across to get people believing what in in in the mission that you're on. And as long as you agree, minus any input with the the basic parameters of the mission that I'm on as a progressive Democrat, you should absolutely want somebody with the kind this kind of skill set. And I think our our refusal to link to engage with with strategically with with with via conversation with the other side has been a major failing of the Democratic Party. You know, we cannibalize ourselves We scream at ourselves and we basically just put a little finger up to the the centrists and the center right when I think if you had somebody with with the type of rhetorical skill and ⁓ and fire of democracy on their heart that I got, you could probably bring a lot of those people closer to your side of the political spectrum than you ever thought possible. It's something that we haven't capitalized on nearly enough in this party. Carlos: I wanted to ask you and and as you were talking, this popped in my head, and you might be the perfect person to ask this. I bang the drum on we need to invest in education so we can create the doctors and the scientists and the engineers that are building goofy shit like AI and infrastructure and all this other stuff. At what point or and and maybe d there's just no point at all, but at what point Does it become a national security issue if we continue to outsource all these jobs because they say that Americans are lazy and stupid? Adam Dunigan: You mean like onshoring of manufacturing or let me let me try? Carlos: Offshoring of ⁓ AI development, offshoring of software development, all these all this new technology that's affecting the way that we live our lives and we run our own government and our own c ⁓ companies for that matter. But if all of the contractors are coming from somewhere else, at what point does that become a national security issue? Adam Dunigan: It can it can very easily. There's plenty of examples of ⁓ nefarious actors coming on ⁓ like ⁓ works days and in temporary fellowships and then like stealing IP. Chinese are notorious for this, right? So it already is kind of kinda like the Chinese like they have eaten our lunch stealing a bunch of cool shit that we did and the Canadians did, right? Carlos: Yeah. And you're not being racist either. I've talked to Chinese people. I've I tried to develop games and make toys and stuff like that. And I ask them for help and they're like, I can help you, but I will steal your shit. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. They're like, look at me. I am the captain now. Your your code is mine. Yeah. No, it's the I when I say the Chinese, I mean it's the Chinese government. And that's one advantage that China has over us is that the Chinese government is a very top down directed organization. So they're strategic, they're patient, ⁓ they are they are they have an intense focus on achieving mission, and right now mission is becoming economically advantaged over the US and they're Carlos: Yeah ⁓ Yeah. Adam Dunigan: good at that and they're good at setting their priorities behind that. And I can't blame them. I mean that is like real politic. That is how international relations works. You're looking met. So there's no no judgment on it. I I do judge, you know, like obviously the moral failings and the the the you know travesties they've committed on their own people, like the Uyghurs or whatever. Like there's there's examples to not trust the CCP not just for their behavior towards us, but just because of their own comportment to their own people. Carlos: That's their team and that's how they want to run their team. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: We cannot ignore that. And when does it become a a security concern if we keep, you know, ⁓ offering jobs or or outsourcing these positions to to foreign actors? Yeah, it might already be. Especially in the AI space, which is why I've been a huge proponent of regulating AI, proactively regulating AI. understanding, you know, how how complex ⁓ systems are being developed, at what stages they're at and where. You know, the government is typically never a very efficient, watchful eye over things, but we have demonstrated in the past when we had major leaps in technology, the ability to regulate and keep people safe and keep, you know, American interests at heart in the way humans are developed. They ⁓ the the car was ⁓ mass produced. So eventually, after lots of deaths and a lot of sloppiness of people moving around the country, we got the Department of Transportation. ⁓ we we invented flight, right? And we got the FAA. We invented mass communication and we got the FCC. We have always caught up eventually with regulation to protect people from the cells, standardize some industry and and introduce safety requirements. With AI that is well it's probably well overdue now. Like there could have been a lot more proactiveness to regulating it. Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: we can still implement some sort of national nonpartisan body full of experts that are adept, agile, and critical of the industry and make sure that corporate profit doesn't outline human di human dignity as this sector develops. I think I think that is an absolute necessity right now. And the fact that it's not talked about more in Congress is a tragedy. And one of the you know differentiating factors between me and and my incumbent and my race is like the old guard of of democratic politics in Congress. From talking about regulation for A AI and what it could look like, they just Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: came out with a with a motion that would initiate an eighteen month study on what regulation could look like. In eighteen months the AI space, because it moves so quickly and it's so fundamentally new, won't look anything like the snapshot they're taking right now for the study. It's just yeah, it's it's it's absurd, but this is how government works, yeah. Carlos: Yeah. One hundred percent. Just take a look at how good AI is now compared to what it was six months ago. And now you're talking about eighteen months? Adam Dunigan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: And it's only going faster. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. A lot of the doom and gloom that is coming out of Silicon Valley, like isn't being heard in the way it's supposed to. You have these CEOs that have been out there telling you that like this is gonna replace all white collar workers. And then you also have this manic ⁓ sprint to integrate AI at every corporate level just because it's the newest, shiniest thing. So it's like you have workers training themselves or or training the systems they're using, using their data to put them out of the job. Like we are subsidizing our own job displacement over time. Carlos: Ha ha ha. Adam Dunigan: And unless the government has like some, you know, phased implementation requirements or or or job retention or like human intervention, human operator endpoint requirements as part of regulation, we're gonna see like massive economic disruption on a scale that we've never seen before. And the CEOs will tell you that like, well, that's when it'll lead to UBI and we're all gonna have like self driving cars that fly around. Like it's not It's never worked out that cleanly and I'm very skeptical that these guys are going to do what's in the best interest of human beings because they have demonstrated over and over again that they will chase profit at the expense of human dignity every single time. Carlos: Yeah. And I'm sorry, I don't need you at the at the helm of the ship. Your mentality is what got us here in the first place. And and you know, n no shade on UBI, I would welcome UBI. With with just a little bit of with just a little bit of financial wiggle room, I would be a beast. Adam Dunigan: Yeah. And this is I mean these are Carlos: But my whole life has been my whole life has been trying to gain access to fill in the blank, gain access to education, gain access to the materials that I wanna build something with. And folks just keep getting in the way. Adam Dunigan: It's insane. It's insane and it's insane that that there's no introspection on the part of these tech billionaires. Like I don't know exactly when it becomes offensive to have that much money, but it is that offensive to have that much money. Like at a certain point, like let's say, 999 million, like you won capitalism at that point, like why hoard wealth, or like why not leverage it for for something that actually helps human beings? Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: I don't know, like I I yeah, yeah, it is. And it is, yeah. Yeah. Keeping up with the chosen. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: It's a game. It's a game. I I hang out. I hang out with them. I hang out with them. It's a game. They don't care. They it's you know, it's just it's it's a video game. You gotta see how many coins you have and all that stuff, and they don't care. Like they there's no attachment to where you come from. There's no attachment to going back to the neighborhood that you're from to to make improvements. That's just not in the game plan. They're pushing forward and they want to leverage all the things that they have to get more things. Why? Because they want to get they want to spend money on ridiculous, dumb shit. That's the reality of it. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, I yeah. And me meanwhile you have kids like who can't afford school lunch, going hungry and like, you know, passing out in in heat waves like this that were in Virginia. Meanwhile you got people who can't afford insulin. Meanwhile you got people who are, you know, freezing to death on bus stops every winter. Like we can do a lot better than we are as a country. And and when people challenge me on that Carlos: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Adam Dunigan: But I don't know exactly what the system looks like, that better system that we we should have right now. Because yeah, it's complex. But like we can. And I think if if you're voting for people who have c ⁓ constructed the system or failed to deconstruct the system such that we're at where we're at right now. If you're voting the same way right now for those people that you did ten years ago, twenty years ago, thirty years ago when they've been in office and not, you know, had results that avoided the worst of this, we we all kinda deserve to be a little bit ashamed of that. And and maybe if all I'm doing as part of my candidacy is to like, you know, hold the mirror up to our to our failures of of imagination even, maybe maybe that's that's a service too. Carlos: Here's an idea I've been I've been pitching to people and I've been I've been asking people to beat it up and and if I'm completely wrong then it is what it is. I am convinced I'm not convinced. I just wanted to be dramatic. Adam Dunigan: I'm confused now. Carlos: Yeah. ⁓ if we were to take for example, we have this whole banking system. I cannot spend twenty dollars more than I have. My limit is what's in the bank and that's it. The powers that be think that if you have a chunk of money starting from the top, that it's gonna trickle down. But it never quite trickles down. Why? Because everyone's hand is out and you gotta pay over here and you gotta pay over there and everyone's sliding money by under the table and doing all kinds of things. But if we flip that bitch, instead of giving out twenty dollars for food stamps and all this stuff, everyone gets the UBI. Everyone gets their money, and we're basically we're Creating the consumers that our economy is supposed to be running off of. Because I don't care, I don't care what school you went to, a million people will always spend more money than the president or the president's family. It just always will. So if we give the people, if we give more people money for them to operate. And say there's some people in in underserved communities. Now they have the money. All right, everyone is going to, you know, if you want to go to that school, the school gets invested in and the money comes out of whatever programs, whatever programs you qualify for, you get that money. Instead of having all these fucking managers that you have to pay and they're creating the market, you give the money to the people, and the people then create the markets because of their their needs that they're obviously having. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, I ⁓ I so you so the trickle down versus the heat up, right? Everybody will tell you everybody will tell you that it's impossible. And and a lot of the criticisms that come from that are like dumb and racist sometimes 'cause like, well if you give the poor's money, they're just gonna spend it on drugs and and liquor and blah, whatever. Yeah, like, ⁓ my god Carlos: Yeah. Like the rich people aren't. The rich people are literally doing that. We have proof. Adam Dunigan: You sa you saw Elon rolling on ketamine during the inauguration, like yeah, they're clearly spell spending it on drugs too. So yeah. Carlos: And to be fair, you saw Hunter Biden like doing drugs off of hookers and all kinds of whatever the hell he was getting himself into. Adam Dunigan: Yeah, which is why we need to make drugs legal and hookers legal again. For for for Hunter, man. Yeah. ⁓ no, so the the economic criticisms of these I think are unfounded and a lot of the like the hair on fire hysteria about UBI, you know what proved that wrong? Was COVID. We got a bunch of stimulus checks, which was the equivalent of what a U UBI would have been for, you know, a short period of time. And granted, there needs to be some economic controls on like an extended Carlos: Ha ha. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: Stimulus check UBI ⁓ regimen because you do have to fight inflation, but we proved that the US government at any point could have cut a bunch of people, decks, just straight cash into their accounts, and it didn't destroy the economy. You know, we just managed it. Carlos: And they spent it on groceries and bills. Adam Dunigan: My God. And then and then to to double down on your point, now you got me cooking on this. To double down on your point, we also had like the the PPP, right? Like we are the the business ⁓ saved your loans. You know who took it yeah, you know who took advantage of that was a bunch of assholes who didn't need the money. And then we saw the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of people that used it. Carlos: Yeah. Business UBI Adam Dunigan: Because they had a company of two people, them and their wife, and they're like, Well, I guess I'll take this fifty million dollar zero percent interest loan to buy a boat. We how are we gonna get to work? We we work remotely, we're on the boat, this is work, this is it's insane. So, like, yeah, the the money, the capital class, the the kleptocracy, yeah, if you give it to the top is always going to hoard. If you give it to the bottom, they don't have an option except but to participate economically and create churn. Carlos: Yeah. Adam Dunigan: in local communities, local businesses. Yeah, so I I think if you it's not a bad idea and it's a principle that I would I would wanna pursue, you know, as we step into a new American future. Yeah, something like that makes sense. Carlos: they're creating the market. And if you want and if and if people are listening to our voices and they think th that's never gonna work, they have it in Dubai. And people of people of Dubai are so kind, so nice. Why? Because they don't need to fight you for an apple. Adam Dunigan: nicer kinder in Europe is because they can they just have healthcare, they don't have to fucking worry about it. ⁓ so I d I don't know exactly where if where Yeah, they are yeah they are. You know, so the sovereign wealth fund. So Norway has their sovereign wealth fund. ⁓ you know Bernie's been out there talking about creating like an AI sovereign wealth fund, right? Like essentially taking a snapshot having profits or or or operating revenue from Carlos: Norway is killing it. Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: AI companies to establish like an American sovereign wealth fund that the the interest in in investments from would go to funding UBI or free pre K and three K. Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: Or education or free college, etcetera. I like that idea a lot. I don't I'm not an economist and I I don't know exactly what an implant implementation of something like that would look like. But at least somebody's thinking a little bit outside the box and at least they're pushing potential solutions, even if it's not the perfect one, right? I do I think that is an in indicator of where the Democratic Party should have always been with this kind of novel solution implementation mentality. And it's really, really frustrating. frustrating that Bernie is the one putting this forward because Bernie was the same one saying these same things back in twenty fifteen when the Democratic Party felt their discandidacy in the crib. You know, like there there were a lot of off ramps to the Trump era and Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: Bernie back in the day, I'm not saying he would have beat Hillary in a fair fight had the DNC obviously not killed his candidacy, but it would have been a more honest dialectic of ideas between different wings of our party before we fractured into all of these competing camps. Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: I think that was a huge loss. And it is I have so much respect for the man 'cause he's still out there consistent as hell every single day trying to put forward things that help the people. Yeah, I can criticize him 'cause he does have, you know, millions of dollars in a second and third home and stuff like that. And I will criticize him for that. But I'm not gonna turn away good ideas just because somebody isn't perfect who put it forward. And I would say more than anybody else in the Senate that I see, Bernie has stuck to his principles. He's the same man he was when he was arguing with like little girls in the mall about property taxes. Carlos: Mm-hmm. Adam Dunigan: in the seventies. It's really encouraging to see at least one person stand on principle. Carlos: Yeah. He's he's just been around forever. Do you consider yourself a a ⁓ democratic socialist? No? Adam Dunigan: I do not. I am a progressive democrat, a pragmatist above all else. I don't think there I don't think there's any daylight between a democratic socialist agenda and my agenda. Like values based, there's no daylight, like moral issues we come down on the same. we might disagree on like the Second Amendment and things like that just because I I get a little freaked out more about some ⁓ two A restrictions ⁓ during the rise of neofasc fascism in the US, but principally, morally, we we are in agreement. ⁓ I don't know even if DSA and you know Progressive Democrats can figure each other out of like where the differences are in a lot of different places. I am open to playing with basically any idea that will help people right now, if there can be a demonstrated use case and some data that shows me that this is a good idea, I'll take it. I don't care which which political label we put on it. I think it's important that we maintain pragmatism above all else. So I say progressive because I want this party to progress. And I do have ideas and my platform is such that I I I think it's a springboard for th those kinds of ideas. DSA ⁓ has those same ones. Like I am open ears and listening. I just think the branding behind DSA right now is is can still be problematic in the eyes of the coalition we need to build, you know, the the enlightened centrist of it all or maybe the center right. As soon they hear that, they'll run for the hills. And it's not fair, it's just in their perception. But I'm trying to manage that here, especially in my district. Carlos: What are some of the things that you you know we to we joked around about your project twenty twenty five? It's d you guys, it's not his project twenty twenty five. I'm trying to reference his battle plan. What are some of the Adam Dunigan: Project twenty twenty five two electric project aloo. I'm in man, let's go. Carlos: That's right. In your ⁓ project Boogaloo, what ⁓ what are some of the things what are some of the the issues that are happening in the eighth district of Virginia that you want to hit the ground running with? Adam Dunigan: Constitution of American soft power. My district is was was affected more than any other by the cuts to the federal government. I want to make sure federal workers, one, get their jobs back, two, receive back pay for you know the last year of the of suffering that they've been through, and three, that we construct ⁓ agencies that employ American soft power abroad and American foreign aid that is rational, constructive, and contrite to the international community in the way that we owe them right now. think that is more important than ever. ⁓ there is the the two penny pledge that the ⁓ Association for American Leadership is putting out there right now. I encourage everybody to go check that out. I think that's that's a pretty good initiative. And ⁓ I think if we were to put more ⁓ like a more muscular ⁓ Foreign investment and foreign aid apparatus together in the wake of the Trekk Second Trump presidency, that would be an amazing thing for the world. I think that waiting for the end of the second Trump presidency is actually too long. And so what I would like to see are some operators in in positions of of influence in Congress that are willing to navigate this kind of possible complex territory of trying to trick, trying to Tom Sawyer. Carlos: Yeah, I agree. Adam Dunigan: the Republican Huck Finns to to paint the fence for us and actually get resources where they need to go. I am I wanna try my hand at that task. I think I'd be pretty good at it given my experiences professionally. Carlos: I mean once you once you left high school, it seems like you just made good decision after good decision. Adam Dunigan: Bravery and courage are the ⁓ often the wait, sorry, I fucked the quote up. Bravery and stupidity are often the same thing. It just d differs on outcome, as I think as Mark Twain said that. ⁓ Yeah, well and like I just I don't know, I I I am an ⁓ an enthusiastic amateur, you know. Maybe I get in and maybe all of this is hopeless. Maybe somebody with my skill set is gonna make zero difference just like anybody else does. But I mean, goddammit, if we're not playing to will if we're not willing to play jazz right now, I wonder how bad it has to get for we as a society to like consider other op options, try something a little bit new. Carlos: I know. I know. Like this is where I am. This was the So ever since all how broke loose and everything, you know, I decided what can I use, what can I bring my skills to? And this is what I decided. I can help by amplifying your voice and all that stuff. After this, if this shit doesn't work, I'm ⁓ let AI take over. Like this doesn't work. This does not work. This struggle, all this bullshit, and we're supposedly the richest country in the history of the world and the most powerful and all these wonderful things. And I can't even like there's food deserts. There's struggle. There's pain. There's fighting. There's anger. This shit doesn't work. Adam Dunigan: This is this is what's so frustrating about the Mara too, because like it's it's a bit vibey, but Ezra Klein's abundance theory book that came out and now they have the follow up that's come out too, and like one of the cool things about abundance theory was the idea that like we have all the raw materials, we have the technologies, we have the human ingenuity to actually achieve, you know, not utopia for Americans, but with with a little bit of creative thinking, we could apply ourselves and create a system. that much better approximates human dignity and s supports like prosperity for all. It would require sacrifice. It would require like an expeditionary mindset to accept disruption, to accept a little bit of temporary discomfort for long term benefit. ⁓ and it was so sad to see the the opposite hypothesis proven out that really ⁓ electorally and within the way we the s we the way we have the system set up that Americans were so scared of their own shadow. Americans were more afraid of change than they were of like authoritarianism. That is a real heartbreaking fact to acknowledge. Carlos: Netwild. Adam Dunigan: However, I do think chaos being the latter that it is, right now we we have that frenetic energy. Everybody's so pissed off about what's happening. Even on the you know, center right, even some of like the the the the MAGA folks are like, ugh I didn't realize he was gonna do that. We have this moment where we get to we get to reimagine what like American society and politics and and Carlos: ⁓ yeah. Adam Dunigan: social social norms should be, I wanna I wanna make sure we seize on that opportunity and and build something that that is better and more durable and does provide for human dignity. And I think we can if we if we do it right. Carlos: The tidal wave is building because again, being able to talk to you and get your ideas and share your ideas, conversations I'm gonna be having after this conversation is going to this conversation is going to influence all my future conversations. And then just we're not dependent on CNN and Fox News anymore. Like this is us talking to us. And we're able to reach different it we're able to reach Prob probably not wider, but definitely deeper because there's people that know me and there's people that know you and they're gonna watch this conversation, they're gonna be like, Wow, they spent two hours together and ⁓ everything was really cool. Instead of instead of for five minutes we're gonna yell at each other and we're not gonna get anything done. Adam Dunigan: Everybody everybody likes to say that that the American attention span is too short for sh but it's not. It's too sh the American attention span is fragile. But if it's interesting and of substance and it's two people exchanging ideas in a way that is only makes sense to the people listening, obviously we're gonna have people going in for for conversations just like this. And this is why I really respect like ⁓ the space that you've carved out carved out with shows just like this. I Carlos: It's not. Adam Dunigan: I know how tough it is to like pick a side online right now because the hate that you get coming from every which way. I know how tough it is to to fight like negative perception or every time somebody misinterprets the little thing that you said. And for you guys that are out there in in in the you know, political communication space, I don't know how you maintain your sanity 'cause it's it's so divided right now. But you do you do you do a a a real good service for the country by by maintaining dialogue just like this. So seriously man, thank you for having me on. Carlos: Of course. This is this is when you go out onto those ⁓ those protests and stuff Yeah, that's that's what protesting looks like, but this is actually what democracy looks like. This is what democracy looks like. And you just keep saying that. Sharing ideas in a calm way, and I come to you, hey Adam, it looks to me like you're this strapping, good-looking white guy. I'm this brown kid, and Let's share some ideas. What are your struggles? Here are my struggles. What are commonalities? And how can we adjust what we have going on so we can both win? Why? Because when we both win, it's just a stronger bond. It's just we can take over the world. Adam Dunigan: Or even or even just establish like bedrock of, you know, past racial identity, religious identity, economic socio and economic stat status. You you establish a baseline that you're both Americans and you're never gonna sell each other out. So we can talk shit, we can yell at each other, we can disagree on something fundamentally, but both of us Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: would, you know, jump in front of a bullet for the other one if it meant saving their, you know, First Amendment, their ability to self-determine, ⁓ their life, their liberty, their pursuit of happiness. Like we have to we have to come back together as like a national identity as Americans. And there's no easy way to get back there. But I know that it won't happen if we just keep repeating the same actions that we've been doing for the last twenty years. Carlos: each. With that being said, we're bumping up to ⁓ two hours. Go ahead and take a couple minutes to explain to everyone who you are, their last sales pitch, and where they can find you online. Adam Dunigan: Yes, sir. So Adam Dunnigan, D U N I G A N. I am running in Virginia's eighth district. So Northern Virginia, Arlington, Alexandria, Falls Church. Right across the street or right across the river from DC. I will be ⁓ going into my primaries on August fourth. August fourth is my primary day. And ⁓ my website is Adam4Congress dot com. Socials are Adam Dunnegan B A Eight. TikTok and Instagram and all the things. I got kind of famous on Instagram, which was cool, early in the campaign. And I'm almost at the point where I am bigger than the governor of Virginia. And I would really like to get more followers on Instagram than the governor of Virginia, which is so petty, I know. But like help me out guys. Just help me out Carlos: Yeah. ⁓ I've had I've had I've had Amanda can't remember her last name right now, but she runs cats on couch cats on ⁓ cats on the couch, yeah. Her ⁓ she got famous because she wanted her Instagram account her she was she was trolling J D Vance. And that it was Adam Dunigan: Nelson, Amanda Nelson, my girl? It's on the couch, yeah no that's different here. Yeah, no, I just I saw her at the ⁓ the event. There's ⁓ been an event called Seven Days in DC. So I just saw her today and yesterday. Yeah, yeah. It's been it yeah. ⁓ I'll I'll close out my political pitch. I'm just trying to put some dignity back in public service. I'm trying to demonstrate to Virginians and America in general that ⁓ there are at least a few people and a few places that are willing Carlos: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Adam Dunigan: to sacrifice and willing to do what's right for the ⁓ the electorate, even in the face of temptation from big money and special interests, keeping it clean. ⁓ I come from a service background and I want I want that to mean something again. And I think if if enough people were to take an interest, if enough people were to get behind, donate, volunteer, vote for me if you hear, please. ⁓ I think we have a real shot at taking this country back in a durable way and Holding power long enough and holding power accountable hard enough to make it matter. So that's that's the end of my pitch guys. Like don't give up on your country 'cause I haven't yet either. Carlos: Yeah, I love it. I'm so happy I got to meet you. Someone Yeah. Thank you thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for your service. Thank you for putting skin in the game and letting us know that we still have a chance. We just have to we just have to move forward correctly. Adam Dunigan: Likewise, Carlos, thank you so much for the time today, man. I really pr do appreciate it. And stop, won't stop, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching. Carlos: I love it. And with that, everybody, we're out. Adam Dunigan: Bye guys.