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Major Dundee · The Director's Chair Network

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  Thank you. 00:29 --> 00:59 Thank you. 00:59 --> 01:01 Thank you. 01:01 --> 01:03 Thank you. 01:03 --> 01:05 Thank you. 01:05 --> 01:05 Thank you. 01:05 --> 01:05 Thank you. 01:05 --> 01:05 Thank you. 01:05 --> 01:05 Thank you. 01:05 --> 01:07 Thank you. 01:07 --> 01:09 Thank you. 01:09 --> 01:09 Thank you. 01:09 --> 01:11 Thank you. 01:11 --> 01:14 It's Adam Thornton. Hi, Adam. 01:14 --> 01:19 Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. 01:19 --> 01:26 That's no problem at all. I think, you know, I've had you on both previous podcasts. 01:26 --> 01:31 So I thought, well, I'm going to have you on this one as well. 01:31 --> 01:36 And this little 14 episode run that I'm doing. 01:38 --> 01:50 So I guess I'll give the stats for today's film and then we can talk about your relationship with Peckinpah before diving into Major Dundee. 01:51 --> 01:56 So Major Dundee was released on March 16th, 1965. 01:56 --> 02:09 Its screenplay was credited to three writers, them being Henry Julian Fink, who's most famous for writing Dirty Harry, 02:09 --> 02:17 but might also be known for such films as Ice Station Zebra and Big Jake, the John Wayne film. 02:20 --> 02:27 Oscar Saul, who's most famous, by far most famous credit is a streetcar named Desire. 02:28 --> 02:31 And of course, our man Peckinpah himself. 02:33 --> 02:40 Critically, it is currently sitting on 97% on Rotten Tomatoes based on 37 reviews. 02:40 --> 02:46 It has a 62% on Metacritic based on 12 reviews. 02:47 --> 02:55 It has a 6.7 on IMDb and it has a 3.4 on Letterboxd. 02:56 --> 03:04 Now, I should mention that the production for this film was troubled, to say the least. 03:05 --> 03:15 And most of those critic scores and audience scores are based on the 2005 extended cut of the film, 03:16 --> 03:21 which was acclaimed when it came out. 03:22 --> 03:29 However, those scores, if we had wound back time to 1965 or 60 years ago, 03:30 --> 03:35 those scores, I think, would look very different because the original cut of this film, 03:35 --> 03:42 well, not the original cut, the one that was released theatrically was not particularly well received. 03:42 --> 03:44 It was not a hit at the box office. 03:45 --> 03:55 And nobody was really a fan of the one that came out in cinemas in 1965, 03:56 --> 03:59 including director Sam Peckinpah. 03:59 --> 04:08 And star of the movie, Charlton Heston, who were all disappointed with what came out in cinemas at the time. 04:08 --> 04:13 So definitely those would all look a lot different. 04:14 --> 04:17 And we'll discuss more about that as we get into the episode. 04:18 --> 04:21 But before we fully dive into the episode, 04:21 --> 04:28 I like to ask my guests a little bit about their Peckinpah experience, if they're a fan, 04:29 --> 04:31 how many films they might have seen by him, 04:32 --> 04:36 you know, any general thoughts before diving into today's film. 04:37 --> 04:40 So, Adam, are you a fan? 04:41 --> 04:42 How many films do you think you've seen? 04:42 --> 04:47 And when do you think you first came across Peckinpah in your film watching journey? 04:48 --> 04:50 Well, I'd say I'm definitely a fan. 04:51 --> 04:58 I just like his whole approach to violence, which I find so revolutionary, you know, 04:58 --> 05:01 at the time he was making, you know, his films. 05:01 --> 05:09 I mean, obviously, the late 60s and early 70s saw kind of a wave of a new type of screen violence hitting Hollywood. 05:09 --> 05:14 But I really feel like Peckinpah sort of makes the biggest impression for me. 05:15 --> 05:21 I've seen, in terms of his films, I've seen, just counting off the top of my head, 05:23 --> 05:29 I've seen about four of them including, but that's not including Noon Wine, 05:29 --> 05:33 which is the TV thing he did in the mid-60s. 05:34 --> 05:37 And as for my first Peckinpah experience, 05:38 --> 05:44 I saw Straw Dogs at university when I was studying film as part of my film MA. 05:44 --> 05:46 It was one of the films on the curriculum. 05:47 --> 05:49 And it really blew me away. 05:50 --> 05:53 It's a hard film to watch in many ways, 05:53 --> 05:56 particularly the way the main female character is treated. 05:57 --> 05:59 But it's one that stays with you. 06:00 --> 06:02 I mean, I later got it on DVD, 06:03 --> 06:07 but it stayed with me for so long after that initial screening. 06:07 --> 06:10 And it led to me wanting to find out more about Peckinpah 06:10 --> 06:13 and when I could watch more of his films. 06:13 --> 06:15 Yeah. 06:15 --> 06:16 Yeah. 06:16 --> 06:17 Yeah. 06:17 --> 06:18 No, absolutely. 06:18 --> 06:19 That makes sense. 06:20 --> 06:24 And yes, you mentioned Noon Wine there, which I've not seen, 06:25 --> 06:29 but that's, like you say, is a TV movie. 06:30 --> 06:38 kind of ended up being probably, he probably made that as an almost direct consequence of this 06:38 --> 06:43 because after this and then immediately being fired from the Cincinnati kid, 06:45 --> 06:49 like Peckinpah was kind of in movie jail for a little bit, 06:50 --> 06:52 or, you know, Hollywood jail. 06:52 --> 06:59 And, you know, like, and yeah, kind of dipped into TV. 06:59 --> 07:07 And Noon Wine resurrected his reputation enough to get him another shot, 07:07 --> 07:08 a theatrical film. 07:08 --> 07:12 And then obviously he ends up making The Wild Bunch after this. 07:12 --> 07:20 But it is, it is a bit of a gap being, you know, the four years between this coming out 07:20 --> 07:23 and The Wild Bunch arriving in 69. 07:26 --> 07:26 So, yeah. 07:27 --> 07:32 So I presume from what you were saying that Major Dundee was not one of the ones you had seen before 07:32 --> 07:34 jumping on for this podcast. 07:35 --> 07:36 No, I hadn't. 07:36 --> 07:41 And in fact, the reason why I wanted to guest in this episode was to really have an excuse to see it. 07:42 --> 07:44 I'd heard things about it. 07:44 --> 07:49 I knew that there were, but it had suffered a lot of issues during production and post-production. 07:49 --> 07:56 And that a lot of the ideas that Peckinpah had for the film weren't fully realised 07:56 --> 07:59 and were carried forward into The Wild Bunch. 07:59 --> 08:06 And so I guess I wanted to see the film just to see the sort of genesis of a lot of the themes and ideas, 08:07 --> 08:11 particularly the stylised violence that you later see in The Wild Bunch. 08:13 --> 08:13 Yeah. 08:14 --> 08:16 No, that's true. 08:16 --> 08:17 That's true. 08:17 --> 08:21 Which, in the extended cut, you get some of, for sure. 08:21 --> 08:30 But I think that is very much watered down in the theatrical cook-up. 08:30 --> 08:35 I think, like, obviously, if I was the best podcaster, obviously, 08:35 --> 08:39 I would have, in preparation for this scene, both available cuts. 08:39 --> 08:48 But I just watched the extended cut, so I apologise if the cinephiles listening feel that that's not good enough. 08:48 --> 08:55 But I did watch a bunch of other things around it and, you know, some of the extras. 08:56 --> 09:09 There's a little 20-minute documentary that you can find on YouTube that is essentially a chapter of a longer documentary called Passion and Poetry. 09:09 --> 09:12 But there's a 20-minute section on Major Dundee. 09:13 --> 09:20 And, yeah, it's, which is very interesting, gives a lot of fun facts. 09:20 --> 09:35 One of which is the best thing, and I think, like, the most peck and paw thing of the production was the studio slated this for a $4.5 million budget. 09:35 --> 09:37 This is decent for the time. 09:38 --> 09:47 But then, just not long before filming, they slashed the budget down to $3 million at Columbia Pictures. 09:47 --> 09:48 They slashed it to $3 million. 09:50 --> 09:54 And peck and paw, he went out, he filmed the film. 09:55 --> 09:57 The production ran over budget. 09:57 --> 10:01 Can you imagine what the production ran over budget to? 10:02 --> 10:04 I'm going to guess about $6 million. 10:05 --> 10:06 No, it didn't. 10:06 --> 10:06 It didn't. 10:07 --> 10:09 It didn't run over budget to that. 10:09 --> 10:17 No, it ran over budget precisely $1.5 million, bringing the budget up to, you guessed it, $4.5 million. 10:18 --> 10:18 Right. 10:19 --> 10:35 So, so peck and paw clearly was like $4.5 million is my budget, and I'm going to film it to that, and I'm going to completely ignore the slashed budget, which is quite funny. 10:35 --> 10:36 Yeah. 10:36 --> 10:38 But no, there was lots of problems with the production. 10:38 --> 10:43 And a lot of the people did not get on. 10:43 --> 10:55 Apparently, Charlton Heston ran at, on horseback, ran at Peckinpah with a stabber at one point to kind of rein him in. 10:56 --> 10:59 And, yeah. 10:59 --> 11:10 And also Richard Harris and Charlton Heston did not get on, and apparently there was a lot of shenanigans there in terms of like bunning heads. 11:11 --> 11:18 And also, Peckinpah was drunk half the time, and also Richard Harris was drunk most of the time. 11:18 --> 11:19 I say half the time. 11:19 --> 11:20 I think it was more most of the time. 11:22 --> 11:30 But, and Richard Harris also most drunk most of the time, which made things a bit difficult. 11:30 --> 11:44 But, as in the documentary, James Coburn says that, you know, that Peckinpah was a genius for at least three hours a day, depending on how much he had drunk that day. 11:45 --> 11:49 So, you know, so obviously good work was still being done. 11:49 --> 11:51 It just, it was just a bit difficult. 11:51 --> 12:07 And, yeah, Peckinpah, it seems, had a kind of, I think he fired a lot of people from the production and was a bit temperamental, which caused a lot of consternation. 12:08 --> 12:15 So, yeah, it doesn't seem like it was the kind of, it doesn't seem like it was the easiest. 12:15 --> 12:32 And I can imagine with those kind of personalities, it could be quite explosive, particularly when you've got Heston and Harris and Peckinpah all kind of doing their thing. 12:33 --> 12:39 I can imagine that's quite, that's strong personalities, shall we say, to have on a film set. 12:41 --> 12:56 Yeah, I mean, it definitely does seem like they're acting in three different films because the performance Richard Harris gives is sort of a lot more nuanced, much more in terms of the characters playing the Confederate Tyreen. 12:56 --> 13:08 It's much more nuanced than Heston's kind of straight arrow approach to the character of Dundee, who we get told various times throughout the film that Dundee is a morally shady figure. 13:08 --> 13:17 But it never comes across convincing because Heston is kind of in full blown Ben-Hur slash Moses mode in this movie. 13:17 --> 13:22 He never really, he never really convinces in the shades of grey, I feel. 13:23 --> 13:24 Yeah, in the shades of grey, yeah. 13:25 --> 13:33 The movie is actually compared a lot, like reigning up in the movie, the movie is actually compared a lot to like Moby Dick. 13:34 --> 13:42 And like, you know, instead of a white whale, they're chasing after these Apaches. 13:43 --> 13:57 And like, I think it is definitely, he doesn't, there is an interesting thing because like, I think if this movie was made later, it would like kind of lean more heavily on that. 13:57 --> 14:02 Or like maybe, maybe, maybe make Major Dundee go kind of full Colonel Kurtz or whatever. 14:03 --> 14:15 But definitely in the extended cut, there is more of a sense of like, he is, there's like this kind of path of vengeance that he's on that is destructive. 14:15 --> 14:21 And he is putting a lot of people's lives in danger, actually unnecessarily. 14:21 --> 14:22 And he is reckless. 14:23 --> 14:34 So like, he is, he is definitely, maybe in the theatrical cut, it's maybe kind of watered down a bit, but he definitely comes across as like, not a great guy. 14:35 --> 14:37 Well, it definitely is watered down. 14:37 --> 14:40 I mean, the theatrical cut is quite straightforward. 14:40 --> 15:00 And even the moments where Dundee's decisions appear or are actively mentioned by other characters as being questionable, like say, facing the French army in Mexico, attracting their attention and sort of taking over the Mexican village that the French are occupying. 15:00 --> 15:10 They never really come across as anything other than straightforward, the same kind of straightforwardly heroic stuff Heston would do in other films. 15:11 --> 15:20 We never really get to see much of the fallout in terms of Dundee's actions, apart from maybe one funeral scene with his men after a battle. 15:21 --> 15:24 But again, yeah, a lot of it is really informed. 15:26 --> 15:32 His amorality and recklessness feel more informed rather than actually being demonstrated in the film itself. 15:33 --> 15:45 I mean, really the only moment where it could be argued that Dundee's quest to kill Sierra Toreba, the leader of the Apaches, 15:45 --> 15:53 the only moment where that comes close to seeming like mad or Ahab-like is the latter part in Mexico when he gets injured 15:53 --> 15:59 and has to go into, I think it's a Durango to recuperate. 15:59 --> 15:59 Durango, yes. 16:00 --> 16:03 But even then, that's quite abbreviated. 16:04 --> 16:11 And I don't know if, maybe I feel like I've seen enough films to justify this, saying this. 16:11 --> 16:14 I don't think Heston is a very convincing drunk. 16:15 --> 16:18 No, no, no, he's not. 16:18 --> 16:19 He's not. 16:21 --> 16:35 Which is quite a big problem when you're playing a guy who's meant to be reckless and, you know, drunken and is supposed to be gradually going off the rails for more of his journey to pursue the Apaches continues. 16:36 --> 16:41 Yeah, it never feels convincing whenever Heston has to act drunk. 16:41 --> 16:52 I feel like, I feel one of the issues with Heston, as much as I like him in films like the Musketeers films and the biblical epics he appeared in, 16:52 --> 16:56 is that he's not great with portraying amorality on screen. 16:56 --> 17:06 Because I recently saw the disaster film Earthquake, where he plays a guy, I feel a womanising football star. 17:06 --> 17:10 And he's not really convincing at the womanising part. 17:10 --> 17:17 He's convincing doing the heroic stuff when it comes to helping, you know, people kind of get to safety in the earthquake. 17:17 --> 17:22 But the actual darker aspects of his character, he really falls flat on. 17:23 --> 17:25 And it's sadly the same here with Dundee. 17:26 --> 17:31 Yeah, I know what you mean by that. 17:31 --> 17:35 And I think he is kind of like a kind of classic movie star. 17:36 --> 17:38 He is also like... 17:39 --> 17:43 So you were talking about the nuance of Richard Harris' performance. 17:43 --> 17:47 And I think like Richard Harris' performance is like... 17:47 --> 17:52 I think some people are divided because I think like Richard Harris... 17:52 --> 17:53 I love Richard Harris. 17:54 --> 17:58 He has like a slight propensity to overact. 18:00 --> 18:04 And I think like some people find... 18:05 --> 18:09 Given the other performances in the movie, the kind of flamboyance of his performance. 18:11 --> 18:12 Like... 18:13 --> 18:16 They're kind of rubbing up against that. 18:17 --> 18:17 But I don't... 18:17 --> 18:19 I'm not one of them. 18:19 --> 18:20 I think his performance is good. 18:20 --> 18:22 And I think that like... 18:22 --> 18:28 But I think my thought there is that like Richard Harris is... 18:28 --> 18:31 He comes from a slightly different school of acting. 18:31 --> 18:35 And also like... 18:35 --> 18:36 He is... 18:36 --> 18:39 He is to my mind... 18:39 --> 18:40 An actor. 18:42 --> 18:42 Like... 18:42 --> 18:46 And what I'm trying to say here is... 18:46 --> 18:49 I think there's some people who are actors... 18:49 --> 18:50 And there's some people who are movie stars. 18:51 --> 18:53 And like you can be both. 18:54 --> 18:55 You can be an actor who is a movie star. 18:56 --> 18:56 But like... 18:56 --> 18:59 I think that there are people who are kind of like... 18:59 --> 18:59 Like... 18:59 --> 18:59 Like... 18:59 --> 18:59 Like... 18:59 --> 18:59 Like... 18:59 --> 18:59 Like... 18:59 --> 18:59 Like... 18:59 --> 19:00 Like... 19:00 --> 19:00 Like... 19:00 --> 19:00 Like... 19:00 --> 19:00 Like... 19:00 --> 19:01 Like... 19:01 --> 19:01 Like... 19:01 --> 19:02 Like... 19:02 --> 19:13 I think Charlton Heston is like that. 19:14 --> 19:14 And I... 19:14 --> 19:14 You know... 19:14 --> 19:17 I think it's the same with the likes of John Wayne... 19:17 --> 19:18 And Clint Eastwood... 19:18 --> 19:19 And Sean Connery. 19:19 --> 19:19 Like... 19:19 --> 19:21 They're not like... 19:21 --> 19:21 Like... 19:21 --> 19:22 You know... 19:22 --> 19:24 None of them are Daniel Day-Lewis... 19:24 --> 19:24 Or... 19:24 --> 19:25 You know... 19:25 --> 19:26 Whoever you want to point out... 19:26 --> 19:26 Is like... 19:26 --> 19:27 You know... 19:27 --> 19:27 Like... 19:27 --> 19:28 A character actor... 19:28 --> 19:29 Method actor... 19:29 --> 19:30 You know... 19:30 --> 19:30 Whatever. 19:30 --> 19:31 They're not that. 19:31 --> 19:32 But they... 19:32 --> 19:34 They have... 19:34 --> 19:35 Um... 19:35 --> 19:37 A presence about them... 19:37 --> 19:39 That pops on screen... 19:39 --> 19:40 And the camera loves them... 19:40 --> 19:42 And they know how to... 19:42 --> 19:44 Play to the camera... 19:44 --> 19:46 They know how to kind of like... 19:46 --> 19:46 Um... 19:46 --> 19:46 You know... 19:46 --> 19:47 They're... 19:47 --> 19:48 They're good at... 19:48 --> 19:50 Knowing where the camera is... 19:50 --> 19:51 And like... 19:51 --> 19:51 Uh... 19:51 --> 19:52 Posing accordingly... 19:52 --> 19:53 Um... 19:53 --> 19:53 And... 19:53 --> 19:54 And like... 19:54 --> 19:54 You know... 19:54 --> 19:55 And they have like... 19:55 --> 19:56 Certain... 19:56 --> 19:56 Um... 19:56 --> 19:57 Faces that... 19:57 --> 19:58 That the camera... 19:58 --> 19:59 Um... 19:59 --> 19:59 Loves... 19:59 --> 20:00 And... 20:00 --> 20:00 And... 20:00 --> 20:01 And that... 20:01 --> 20:03 But they're not... 20:03 --> 20:03 So like... 20:03 --> 20:05 But playing the kind of nuance... 20:05 --> 20:05 Of things... 20:05 --> 20:06 Or like... 20:06 --> 20:08 That kind of thing... 20:08 --> 20:08 That... 20:08 --> 20:09 That's not... 20:09 --> 20:11 Quite their remit... 20:11 --> 20:12 That's... 20:12 --> 20:12 You know... 20:12 --> 20:13 And like... 20:13 --> 20:13 All of them... 20:13 --> 20:14 You could probably point to all of them... 20:14 --> 20:15 And be like... 20:15 --> 20:15 Oh... 20:15 --> 20:16 They did this one performance here... 20:16 --> 20:18 And that one performance there... 20:18 --> 20:20 That's maybe a bit more... 20:20 --> 20:21 Kind of like... 20:21 --> 20:22 Playing shades of grey... 20:22 --> 20:23 Or stuff like that... 20:23 --> 20:24 But... 20:24 --> 20:25 I own... 20:25 --> 20:25 I... 20:25 --> 20:26 So... 20:26 --> 20:26 That... 20:26 --> 20:27 That's my thought... 20:27 --> 20:28 That like... 20:28 --> 20:30 Richard Harris is more of a... 20:30 --> 20:30 Kind of like... 20:30 --> 20:31 Character actor... 20:31 --> 20:32 And... 20:32 --> 20:33 But like... 20:33 --> 20:34 Heston is more of a... 20:34 --> 20:35 Kind of... 20:35 --> 20:37 Capital M... 20:37 --> 20:38 Movie star... 20:38 --> 20:39 You know... 20:39 --> 20:40 Yeah... 20:40 --> 20:40 I mean... 20:40 --> 20:42 I think that definitely comes across... 20:42 --> 20:43 In the scenes between... 20:43 --> 20:45 Tyreen and Dundee... 20:45 --> 20:45 I mean... 20:45 --> 20:46 You can tell Harris really... 20:46 --> 20:49 Likes to get his teeth into... 20:49 --> 20:50 The... 20:50 --> 20:52 The seeming amorality of Tyreen... 20:52 --> 20:54 Into the darker aspects of the character... 20:54 --> 20:56 Where you genuinely... 20:56 --> 20:57 Don't know... 20:58 --> 21:00 How he's going to... 21:00 --> 21:02 Whether he's going to turn against Dundee... 21:02 --> 21:03 Or not... 21:03 --> 21:04 I mean... 21:04 --> 21:05 Although I think... 21:05 --> 21:07 Although at least you do in like... 21:07 --> 21:08 The early... 21:08 --> 21:09 One or two of the early scenes... 21:09 --> 21:11 The problem is that... 21:11 --> 21:11 I... 21:11 --> 21:12 This is a... 21:12 --> 21:14 I think a script problem as well... 21:14 --> 21:15 Is that I don't think... 21:15 --> 21:17 The character of Tyreen... 21:17 --> 21:18 Is really given... 21:18 --> 21:19 Enough... 21:20 --> 21:20 Moments... 21:20 --> 21:21 Where you wonder... 21:21 --> 21:23 Whether he'll turn against Dundee... 21:23 --> 21:24 I feel like... 21:24 --> 21:26 Once they set off... 21:26 --> 21:27 To get the Apaches... 21:27 --> 21:28 He's more or less... 21:28 --> 21:30 On Dundee's side... 21:30 --> 21:32 Except for one or two moments... 21:32 --> 21:33 Where he argues with him... 21:33 --> 21:35 But which seem a bit contrived... 21:35 --> 21:36 Because they then... 21:36 --> 21:37 Are basically... 21:37 --> 21:38 Friends... 21:38 --> 21:39 Up until the end... 21:39 --> 21:39 It... 21:39 --> 21:40 It... 21:40 --> 21:40 You know... 21:40 --> 21:41 I feel like... 21:41 --> 21:42 The script... 21:42 --> 21:42 Unfortunately... 21:42 --> 21:44 Kind of does Harris's performance... 21:44 --> 21:45 A disservice... 21:45 --> 21:46 As it makes Tyreen's... 21:46 --> 21:48 Amorality... 21:48 --> 21:49 Perceived amorality... 21:49 --> 21:51 And conflicts with Dundee... 21:51 --> 21:53 More of an informed attribute... 21:53 --> 21:53 Again... 21:53 --> 21:55 As with Dundee's moral greyness... 21:55 --> 21:56 I feel like... 21:56 --> 21:58 There's a lot said about it... 21:58 --> 22:00 But you don't get as much of it... 22:00 --> 22:01 Being shown in the script... 22:01 --> 22:02 As there could have been... 22:02 --> 22:03 Yeah... 22:03 --> 22:03 No... 22:03 --> 22:03 No... 22:03 --> 22:04 I... 22:04 --> 22:05 I... 22:05 --> 22:05 I... 22:05 --> 22:05 I... 22:05 --> 22:06 I know what you mean... 22:06 --> 22:07 I do think you get... 22:07 --> 22:08 Like... 22:08 --> 22:09 I'm not sure... 22:09 --> 22:09 I mean... 22:09 --> 22:11 Certainly from the extended cut... 22:11 --> 22:12 I don't... 22:12 --> 22:12 I... 22:12 --> 22:14 I think that you get a sense... 22:14 --> 22:15 That like... 22:16 --> 22:17 That... 22:17 --> 22:20 Tyreen will follow Dundee... 22:20 --> 22:21 On his mission... 22:22 --> 22:23 Yeah... 22:23 --> 22:23 Um... 22:23 --> 22:24 Eh... 22:24 --> 22:25 Um... 22:25 --> 22:25 And... 22:25 --> 22:28 I think that like... 22:28 --> 22:28 That... 22:28 --> 22:30 Is kind of put to bed... 22:30 --> 22:31 There is... 22:31 --> 22:32 I don't know if it happens... 22:32 --> 22:33 In the theatrical cut actually... 22:33 --> 22:34 But... 22:34 --> 22:34 There is... 22:34 --> 22:35 There is a moment... 22:35 --> 22:37 Where they can kind of... 22:37 --> 22:38 That they have a choice... 22:38 --> 22:39 Where they can like... 22:39 --> 22:40 They see... 22:40 --> 22:41 Um... 22:41 --> 22:42 A unit... 22:42 --> 22:42 Of... 22:42 --> 22:44 Confederate troops... 22:44 --> 22:45 And they can either like... 22:45 --> 22:46 Go with... 22:46 --> 22:47 Dundee to Mexico... 22:47 --> 22:48 Or they can... 22:48 --> 22:49 Um... 22:49 --> 22:50 Or they can like... 22:50 --> 22:51 Join... 22:51 --> 22:53 With the other Confederate troops... 22:53 --> 22:54 Like basically run away... 22:54 --> 22:54 Um... 22:54 --> 22:55 And... 22:55 --> 22:56 And join with this other... 22:56 --> 22:57 Um... 22:57 --> 22:58 Confederate unit... 22:58 --> 22:59 Um... 22:59 --> 22:59 And... 22:59 --> 23:01 Um... 23:01 --> 23:02 Tyreen is like... 23:02 --> 23:02 No... 23:02 --> 23:02 We... 23:02 --> 23:03 I gave the word... 23:03 --> 23:04 And you know... 23:04 --> 23:05 You know... 23:05 --> 23:05 We're going to Mexico... 23:05 --> 23:07 Kind of thing... 23:07 --> 23:07 So like... 23:07 --> 23:09 Um... 23:09 --> 23:09 No... 23:09 --> 23:09 I mean... 23:09 --> 23:11 The theatrical cut... 23:11 --> 23:12 Just as they're getting to... 23:12 --> 23:12 I think... 23:12 --> 23:14 The Rio Grande... 23:14 --> 23:16 I think there's a moment where... 23:16 --> 23:18 I think Tyreen kind of stays back... 23:18 --> 23:20 Whilst Dundee advances... 23:20 --> 23:20 And... 23:20 --> 23:22 Dundee sort of... 23:22 --> 23:24 Assumes that he's not going to follow... 23:24 --> 23:25 That he's... 23:25 --> 23:25 That... 23:25 --> 23:26 That... 23:26 --> 23:26 That you know... 23:26 --> 23:28 That he's not going to... 23:28 --> 23:28 You know... 23:28 --> 23:29 Follow his word... 23:29 --> 23:30 And so just heads off... 23:30 --> 23:32 And then after a moment... 23:32 --> 23:35 Tyreen orders his men to follow Dundee... 23:35 --> 23:35 What? 23:35 --> 23:36 I mean... 23:36 --> 23:36 Okay... 23:36 --> 23:39 Does that come before or after the Confederates? 23:39 --> 23:40 Um... 23:40 --> 23:42 That is... 23:42 --> 23:42 Yeah... 23:42 --> 23:44 It's just as they're coming up to the Rio Grande... 23:44 --> 23:44 So like... 23:44 --> 23:46 It's a similar moment... 23:46 --> 23:46 Um... 23:46 --> 23:49 It's a similar... 23:49 --> 23:50 It's a similar point... 23:50 --> 23:51 Yeah... 23:51 --> 23:52 It's kind of in that point of the film... 23:52 --> 23:53 So like... 23:53 --> 23:54 I don't know... 23:54 --> 23:55 Maybe that's not... 23:55 --> 23:57 That's another thing that kind of... 23:57 --> 23:59 You get a bit extra context... 23:59 --> 23:59 In the... 23:59 --> 24:00 Um... 24:00 --> 24:00 In the... 24:00 --> 24:02 Um... 24:02 --> 24:04 In the extended cut... 24:04 --> 24:04 I guess... 24:04 --> 24:05 Um... 24:05 --> 24:06 Yeah... 24:06 --> 24:06 Yeah... 24:06 --> 24:07 So I mean... 24:07 --> 24:08 This is at the point where I need to say... 24:08 --> 24:10 I just saw the theatrical cuts... 24:10 --> 24:11 That was on... 24:11 --> 24:13 That was on Amazon Prime... 24:13 --> 24:13 So... 24:13 --> 24:15 If it seems like we're slightly at odds... 24:15 --> 24:16 It's because... 24:16 --> 24:18 I saw a different version of the film to Scott's... 24:18 --> 24:19 Yeah... 24:19 --> 24:19 No... 24:19 --> 24:19 That... 24:19 --> 24:20 That is... 24:20 --> 24:21 That is true... 24:21 --> 24:23 And we should explain to people a little bit... 24:23 --> 24:23 People... 24:23 --> 24:24 I mean... 24:24 --> 24:26 I'm sure lots of people who are listening to this podcast... 24:26 --> 24:28 Have probably seen this film... 24:28 --> 24:30 Or maybe even seen both cuts of this film... 24:30 --> 24:31 Um... 24:31 --> 24:32 So... 24:32 --> 24:33 Um... 24:33 --> 24:34 But yes... 24:34 --> 24:36 There is two cuts that exist... 24:36 --> 24:37 Um... 24:37 --> 24:38 There is... 24:38 --> 24:40 And there is also... 24:40 --> 24:41 Um... 24:41 --> 24:41 Uh... 24:41 --> 24:42 A kind of... 24:42 --> 24:44 Director's cut... 24:44 --> 24:44 That... 24:44 --> 24:46 We assume doesn't exist... 24:46 --> 24:46 Um... 24:46 --> 24:47 It's... 24:47 --> 24:47 Um... 24:47 --> 24:48 Um... 24:48 --> 24:49 Now... 24:49 --> 24:49 Anyway... 24:49 --> 24:50 Um... 24:50 --> 24:51 So like... 24:51 --> 24:52 There is a version... 24:52 --> 24:54 Apparently the first... 24:54 --> 24:55 Um... 24:55 --> 24:56 Uh... 24:56 --> 24:57 Like... 24:57 --> 24:59 Apparently Peckinpah filmed everything... 24:59 --> 24:59 So like... 24:59 --> 25:00 Um... 25:00 --> 25:02 Apparently there is a version of this film... 25:02 --> 25:03 That was like... 25:03 --> 25:04 The kind of first one they filmed... 25:04 --> 25:06 Was like four and a half hours long... 25:06 --> 25:08 But that was never intended for release... 25:08 --> 25:10 And then that was cut down... 25:10 --> 25:13 That was cut down to about 156 minutes... 25:13 --> 25:15 So just a little bit over two and a half hours... 25:15 --> 25:16 For like... 25:16 --> 25:16 Uh... 25:16 --> 25:17 Peckinpah's... 25:17 --> 25:17 Uh... 25:17 --> 25:18 Director's cut... 25:18 --> 25:19 But then... 25:19 --> 25:20 Like Peckinpah... 25:20 --> 25:21 Was uh... 25:21 --> 25:22 Locked out of... 25:22 --> 25:22 Of... 25:22 --> 25:23 Of the edit... 25:23 --> 25:25 Of essentially thrown off the project... 25:25 --> 25:26 Um... 25:26 --> 25:27 Um... 25:27 --> 25:27 And... 25:27 --> 25:28 Uh... 25:28 --> 25:28 Yeah... 25:28 --> 25:30 Then the studio took it... 25:30 --> 25:32 And then cut it up more... 25:32 --> 25:33 Um... 25:33 --> 25:33 And... 25:33 --> 25:33 Uh... 25:33 --> 25:35 Apparently the... 25:35 --> 25:37 136 minute... 25:37 --> 25:38 2005... 25:38 --> 25:40 Restored cut... 25:40 --> 25:42 Was actually an approved cut... 25:42 --> 25:43 By one of the... 25:43 --> 25:44 Main producer on the film... 25:44 --> 25:45 Jerry Bressler... 25:45 --> 25:46 Apparently... 25:46 --> 25:46 Yeah... 25:46 --> 25:47 Even... 25:47 --> 25:47 He... 25:47 --> 25:48 He approved that... 25:48 --> 25:49 But like... 25:49 --> 25:50 Um... 25:50 --> 25:50 Uh... 25:50 --> 25:51 But then... 25:51 --> 25:53 Columbia took a further... 25:53 --> 25:55 13 minutes out of the picture... 25:55 --> 25:57 To boil it down... 25:57 --> 25:57 Um... 25:57 --> 25:59 To 123... 25:59 --> 26:01 Um... 26:01 --> 26:02 And... 26:02 --> 26:02 So... 26:02 --> 26:03 Yes... 26:03 --> 26:03 So... 26:03 --> 26:04 So... 26:04 --> 26:04 So yeah... 26:04 --> 26:05 There's a little bit... 26:05 --> 26:06 Points of difference here... 26:06 --> 26:07 Because... 26:07 --> 26:08 I... 26:08 --> 26:09 Um... 26:09 --> 26:09 Uh... 26:09 --> 26:10 I thought... 26:10 --> 26:11 The extended cut... 26:11 --> 26:12 Was the one streaming... 26:12 --> 26:13 It's not... 26:13 --> 26:14 I did find the extended cut... 26:14 --> 26:16 So I did watch the extended cut... 26:16 --> 26:17 Um... 26:17 --> 26:20 So I've seen the 136 minute cut... 26:20 --> 26:21 And... 26:21 --> 26:23 Adam has seen the original theatrical... 26:23 --> 26:24 Um... 26:24 --> 26:25 123... 26:25 --> 26:26 And... 26:26 --> 26:26 Like... 26:26 --> 26:27 Like I say... 26:27 --> 26:29 The 156 minute cut... 26:29 --> 26:30 Um... 26:30 --> 26:32 Is thought to be lost to time... 26:32 --> 26:33 Um... 26:33 --> 26:34 Because... 26:34 --> 26:34 The... 26:34 --> 26:37 136 minute cut... 26:37 --> 26:37 Um... 26:37 --> 26:38 Took a while... 26:38 --> 26:39 To... 26:39 --> 26:39 To... 26:39 --> 26:40 To restore... 26:40 --> 26:41 It was... 26:41 --> 26:42 Um... 26:42 --> 26:43 Uh... 26:43 --> 26:44 Michael Schlesinger... 26:44 --> 26:45 Who was... 26:45 --> 26:45 Um... 26:45 --> 26:46 The head of... 26:46 --> 26:48 Columbia's Repertory Division... 26:48 --> 26:49 In 1994... 26:49 --> 26:50 Asked the management head... 26:50 --> 26:51 Grover... 26:51 --> 26:51 Uh... 26:51 --> 26:52 Grover Crisp... 26:52 --> 26:52 Um... 26:52 --> 26:53 About putting the... 26:53 --> 26:55 The picture back together... 26:55 --> 26:56 And... 26:56 --> 26:56 Uh... 26:56 --> 26:58 Chris looped around for footage... 26:58 --> 26:59 And they finally found some stuff... 26:59 --> 27:01 And restored it... 27:01 --> 27:01 Um... 27:01 --> 27:03 According to Peckinpah's notes... 27:03 --> 27:04 Um... 27:04 --> 27:04 Um... 27:04 --> 27:05 And then... 27:05 --> 27:05 Obviously... 27:05 --> 27:08 That cut came out in 2005... 27:08 --> 27:09 So it actually took like... 27:09 --> 27:10 Nine years... 27:10 --> 27:12 From the original request... 27:12 --> 27:13 To actually... 27:13 --> 27:14 Assemble... 27:14 --> 27:15 That cut... 27:15 --> 27:15 So... 27:15 --> 27:16 Um... 27:16 --> 27:16 Um... 27:16 --> 27:17 It seems... 27:17 --> 27:17 Yeah... 27:17 --> 27:19 It seems like the... 27:19 --> 27:19 To... 27:19 --> 27:20 The... 27:20 --> 27:21 The... 27:21 --> 27:21 The... 27:21 --> 27:22 Um... 27:22 --> 27:23 Peckinpah's... 27:23 --> 27:25 Full director's cut... 27:25 --> 27:26 Will not... 27:26 --> 27:27 Will not be getting a release... 27:27 --> 27:28 Because... 27:28 --> 27:29 I don't think anybody knows... 27:29 --> 27:30 Where that... 27:30 --> 27:32 Additional footage... 27:32 --> 27:32 That... 27:32 --> 27:33 Extra... 27:33 --> 27:35 20 minutes... 27:35 --> 27:35 Um... 27:35 --> 27:36 Is... 27:36 --> 27:37 So... 27:37 --> 27:38 Um... 27:38 --> 27:38 Um... 27:38 --> 27:41 So that may have been lost to time... 27:41 --> 27:42 I mean... 27:42 --> 27:44 It definitely feels like... 27:44 --> 27:46 There was a whole chunk of footage... 27:46 --> 27:48 Cut from the theatrical version... 27:48 --> 27:48 Because... 27:48 --> 27:50 A lot of the time... 27:50 --> 27:51 The film relies a lot... 27:51 --> 27:53 A lot on the narration... 27:53 --> 27:53 Of its... 27:53 --> 27:55 Of the army's youngest member... 27:56 --> 27:56 Uh... 27:56 --> 27:57 Ryan... 27:57 --> 27:57 Yeah... 27:57 --> 27:58 Which you still get... 27:58 --> 28:00 You still get in the restored cut... 28:00 --> 28:00 Yeah... 28:00 --> 28:00 Yeah... 28:00 --> 28:01 But... 28:01 --> 28:01 But... 28:01 --> 28:04 But the narration is often used to paper over cracks... 28:04 --> 28:05 Where you see like... 28:05 --> 28:06 Montages... 28:06 --> 28:08 Being made up of footage... 28:08 --> 28:09 From clearly... 28:09 --> 28:11 A whole load of deleted scenes... 28:11 --> 28:13 They've been cut together... 28:13 --> 28:13 Mm-hmm... 28:13 --> 28:15 So to skim over... 28:15 --> 28:16 As much... 28:16 --> 28:17 Stuff as possible... 28:17 --> 28:19 To get the film into a two hour run time... 28:19 --> 28:20 And it does... 28:20 --> 28:22 And it does affect the film... 28:22 --> 28:23 In a way... 28:23 --> 28:25 That you never really get a proper sense... 28:25 --> 28:27 Of Dundee's army... 28:27 --> 28:28 Sort of deteriorating... 28:28 --> 28:30 Or how their relationship fluctuates... 28:30 --> 28:32 Because at various points... 28:32 --> 28:33 You're told... 28:33 --> 28:34 Oh... 28:34 --> 28:35 The company is now... 28:35 --> 28:38 Regrouping and recuperating... 28:38 --> 28:41 When there's been no real sense of division beforehand... 28:41 --> 28:42 And... 28:42 --> 28:43 And you'll... 28:43 --> 28:45 And you'll get sort of the narration saying... 28:45 --> 28:46 Oh... 28:46 --> 28:46 You know... 28:46 --> 28:49 The company is now... 28:49 --> 28:49 You know... 28:49 --> 28:50 Was divided... 28:50 --> 28:51 But it's now strong again... 28:51 --> 28:52 And again... 28:52 --> 28:54 There's little sense of any division beforehand... 28:54 --> 28:55 In fact... 28:55 --> 28:56 Okay... 28:56 --> 28:58 Another criticism I've made... 28:58 --> 29:00 Is that of the footage we see... 29:00 --> 29:00 Mm-hmm... 29:00 --> 29:03 Of the footage that makes the theatrical cuts... 29:03 --> 29:06 There isn't a lot of division... 29:06 --> 29:08 Between the Union and Confederate factions... 29:08 --> 29:10 Of Dundee's army... 29:10 --> 29:10 Oh... 29:10 --> 29:10 Okay... 29:10 --> 29:11 Kind of expecting more of that... 29:11 --> 29:12 There is... 29:12 --> 29:13 There is a bit more... 29:13 --> 29:15 There is a bit more... 29:15 --> 29:15 There is a bit more... 29:15 --> 29:16 Division... 29:16 --> 29:16 And... 29:16 --> 29:23 So... 29:23 --> 29:25 Just to come back... 29:25 --> 29:26 And your point about... 29:26 --> 29:28 The kind of division there... 29:28 --> 29:29 I think again... 29:29 --> 29:30 In the extended cut... 29:30 --> 29:33 There's definitely more of a sense of that... 29:33 --> 29:34 Mm-hmm... 29:34 --> 29:35 Like... 29:35 --> 29:35 Again... 29:35 --> 29:38 Like one of the things that causes a lot of division... 29:38 --> 29:39 And I don't know if you get this... 29:39 --> 29:42 In the theatrical cut... 29:42 --> 29:43 Um... 29:43 --> 29:45 Because I know some of the differences... 29:45 --> 29:45 Um... 29:45 --> 29:46 Which we'll... 29:46 --> 29:47 We'll talk about... 29:47 --> 29:49 But I don't know all the differences... 29:49 --> 29:50 Um... 29:50 --> 29:50 But... 29:50 --> 29:51 Um... 29:51 --> 29:51 What... 29:51 --> 29:53 A big dividing point... 29:53 --> 29:54 Um... 29:54 --> 29:57 Where you get a sense of the tension between the two sets of troops... 29:57 --> 29:58 Um... 29:58 --> 29:59 Is that... 29:59 --> 30:00 Like... 30:00 --> 30:00 Um... 30:00 --> 30:01 The character... 30:01 --> 30:02 O.W. 30:02 --> 30:04 Played by Warren Oates... 30:04 --> 30:04 Is... 30:04 --> 30:05 Um... 30:05 --> 30:07 He's... 30:07 --> 30:08 He... 30:08 --> 30:08 Like... 30:08 --> 30:10 His death... 30:10 --> 30:10 Is... 30:10 --> 30:11 When he... 30:11 --> 30:12 When he deserts... 30:12 --> 30:15 There is definitely a big sense of tension... 30:15 --> 30:16 Um... 30:16 --> 30:16 Then... 30:16 --> 30:18 Because there's this kind of... 30:18 --> 30:18 Um... 30:18 --> 30:23 There's a lot of back and forth between Dundee and Tyreen... 30:23 --> 30:25 Tyreen just wants to see him punished... 30:25 --> 30:26 Um... 30:26 --> 30:27 But... 30:27 --> 30:27 Um... 30:27 --> 30:28 Dundee is... 30:28 --> 30:34 Is very committed on having him killed by firing squad... 30:34 --> 30:34 And... 30:34 --> 30:35 Um... 30:35 --> 30:36 You know... 30:36 --> 30:37 There's... 30:37 --> 30:38 There's definitely a lot of tension there... 30:38 --> 30:41 And then what happens in the end is... 30:41 --> 30:42 Is Tyreen... 30:42 --> 30:45 To get it over and done with quickly... 30:46 --> 30:47 Um... 30:47 --> 30:47 Shoots... 30:47 --> 30:48 Um... 30:48 --> 30:48 O.W. 30:48 --> 30:48 O.W. 30:48 --> 30:50 In the back and kills him... 30:50 --> 30:51 Um... 30:51 --> 30:52 And so there's... 30:52 --> 30:52 Yeah, I mean... 30:52 --> 30:55 There's definitely a big falling out at that point... 30:55 --> 30:59 That's all in the theatrical version... 30:59 --> 30:59 Yeah... 30:59 --> 31:00 But the problem is that... 31:00 --> 31:03 It feels like that should be the culmination... 31:04 --> 31:05 Do like... 31:05 --> 31:08 A whole load of rising tension... 31:08 --> 31:09 That's there from the start... 31:09 --> 31:11 That's never really present... 31:11 --> 31:14 In any of the other scenes of Dundee's company... 31:14 --> 31:14 I mean... 31:14 --> 31:17 There's like one moment of racism... 31:17 --> 31:18 Against... 31:18 --> 31:18 Uh... 31:18 --> 31:19 The Black Soldier... 31:19 --> 31:21 Played by Brock Peters... 31:21 --> 31:21 Aesop... 31:21 --> 31:22 Which is played... 31:22 --> 31:23 Yeah, yeah... 31:23 --> 31:25 Which is played very sort of light... 31:25 --> 31:27 But even that's played too light-heartedly... 31:27 --> 31:28 Heartedly... 31:28 --> 31:30 And partly for comedy... 31:30 --> 31:32 And it's resolved too quickly... 31:32 --> 31:34 Like by having the Richard Harris character... 31:34 --> 31:36 Immediately apologise... 31:36 --> 31:37 To the character of Aesop... 31:37 --> 31:38 Um... 31:38 --> 31:39 So that's almost... 31:39 --> 31:40 So that tension is almost... 31:40 --> 31:42 I think that it's played slightly... 31:42 --> 31:43 I think as... 31:43 --> 31:44 I mean... 31:44 --> 31:44 It's... 31:44 --> 31:45 It's kind of played for comedy... 31:45 --> 31:46 Because like... 31:46 --> 31:47 The... 31:47 --> 31:47 Um... 31:47 --> 31:49 Because that racist character... 31:49 --> 31:51 Gets beat up by... 31:51 --> 31:51 Um... 31:51 --> 31:52 By the preacher... 31:52 --> 31:53 The preacher... 31:53 --> 31:53 Yeah... 31:53 --> 31:54 Um... 31:54 --> 31:55 Yeah... 31:55 --> 31:56 Yeah... 31:56 --> 31:56 I guess... 31:56 --> 31:57 I mean... 31:57 --> 31:57 I guess... 31:57 --> 31:59 I guess... 31:59 --> 32:00 Um... 32:00 --> 32:01 I don't know... 32:01 --> 32:02 Maybe in the next... 32:02 --> 32:03 It comes off slightly darker... 32:03 --> 32:03 But yeah... 32:03 --> 32:04 I mean... 32:04 --> 32:05 In the end... 32:05 --> 32:06 It's kind of played... 32:06 --> 32:07 Kind of... 32:07 --> 32:07 Kind of light... 32:07 --> 32:08 Because... 32:08 --> 32:09 Um... 32:09 --> 32:10 The preacher just... 32:10 --> 32:11 Just beats him up... 32:11 --> 32:13 And that's quite funny... 32:13 --> 32:14 Um... 32:14 --> 32:15 So... 32:15 --> 32:16 But there's also... 32:16 --> 32:17 There's also other moments... 32:17 --> 32:18 Earlier on... 32:18 --> 32:19 That played for laughs... 32:19 --> 32:19 Like... 32:19 --> 32:21 I'm thinking of the scene where... 32:21 --> 32:22 Where... 32:22 --> 32:23 Where Dundee's company... 32:23 --> 32:25 Are trying to get used to the horses... 32:25 --> 32:25 Mm-hmm... 32:25 --> 32:26 In the... 32:26 --> 32:27 In the prison... 32:27 --> 32:29 Just before they set off... 32:29 --> 32:31 And the whole thing is set to like... 32:31 --> 32:31 Goofy... 32:31 --> 32:32 Like... 32:32 --> 32:34 Comedy jug music... 32:34 --> 32:34 It's like... 32:34 --> 32:35 Ah... 32:35 --> 32:36 So this is... 32:36 --> 32:37 So I think like... 32:37 --> 32:37 The... 32:37 --> 32:39 The scene plays very... 32:39 --> 32:39 Like... 32:39 --> 32:40 It... 32:40 --> 32:41 It's not like... 32:41 --> 32:43 It's not like... 32:43 --> 32:44 A much more serious scene... 32:44 --> 32:45 But I think like... 32:45 --> 32:47 There is a big difference... 32:47 --> 32:47 In the two films... 32:47 --> 32:49 Because like... 32:49 --> 32:50 Um... 32:50 --> 32:51 As... 32:51 --> 32:51 When... 32:51 --> 32:53 I might not have explained so far... 32:53 --> 32:54 Um... 32:54 --> 32:57 As well as several scenes... 32:57 --> 32:58 Being restored... 32:59 --> 32:59 Um... 32:59 --> 33:00 The... 33:00 --> 33:02 The extended cut... 33:02 --> 33:04 Has a completely different score... 33:04 --> 33:05 Um... 33:05 --> 33:06 The original score... 33:06 --> 33:07 Was done by... 33:07 --> 33:08 Um... 33:08 --> 33:09 A guy called... 33:09 --> 33:10 Daniel... 33:10 --> 33:12 Amphithiroff... 33:12 --> 33:14 Um... 33:14 --> 33:14 Um... 33:14 --> 33:15 Thitroff... 33:15 --> 33:16 Um... 33:16 --> 33:16 I... 33:16 --> 33:16 I... 33:16 --> 33:18 I hope I'm pronouncing that... 33:18 --> 33:18 Correctly... 33:18 --> 33:19 Probably not... 33:19 --> 33:20 I apologise... 33:20 --> 33:21 Um... 33:21 --> 33:22 But the... 33:22 --> 33:22 The... 33:22 --> 33:23 The... 33:23 --> 33:24 The restored cut... 33:24 --> 33:24 Um... 33:24 --> 33:26 Has a score by... 33:26 --> 33:27 A gentleman called... 33:27 --> 33:28 Christopher Caliendo... 33:28 --> 33:29 Um... 33:29 --> 33:29 Which is quite... 33:29 --> 33:31 It's quite different... 33:31 --> 33:32 I think... 33:32 --> 33:33 Um... 33:33 --> 33:34 Uh... 33:34 --> 33:34 I've... 33:34 --> 33:35 I've heard... 33:35 --> 33:36 That... 33:36 --> 33:36 The... 33:36 --> 33:37 Well... 33:37 --> 33:37 I've heard some of the... 33:37 --> 33:38 The original score... 33:38 --> 33:39 And it's much more... 33:39 --> 33:41 Uh... 33:41 --> 33:41 Orchestral... 33:41 --> 33:43 And bombastic... 33:43 --> 33:43 Um... 33:43 --> 33:45 Whereas... 33:45 --> 33:45 The... 33:45 --> 33:46 The... 33:46 --> 33:47 Christopher Caliendo score... 33:47 --> 33:48 Is not... 33:48 --> 33:49 Uh... 33:49 --> 33:49 Perfect... 33:49 --> 33:50 Um... 33:50 --> 33:51 But... 33:51 --> 33:52 It is much more... 33:52 --> 33:53 Um... 33:53 --> 33:54 In tune... 33:54 --> 33:55 With... 33:55 --> 33:56 Um... 33:56 --> 33:58 The kind of scores... 33:58 --> 33:59 That you would hear... 33:59 --> 34:01 In other... 34:01 --> 34:01 Uh... 34:01 --> 34:03 Peckinpah... 34:03 --> 34:05 In Peckinpah movies... 34:05 --> 34:05 Um... 34:05 --> 34:06 A lot of kind of... 34:06 --> 34:07 Like... 34:07 --> 34:07 Uh... 34:07 --> 34:08 That kind of... 34:08 --> 34:10 That kind of moody work... 34:10 --> 34:10 And... 34:10 --> 34:10 You know... 34:10 --> 34:11 And... 34:11 --> 34:11 And... 34:11 --> 34:12 Kind of... 34:12 --> 34:13 A lot of Spanish guitar... 34:13 --> 34:14 And stuff like that... 34:14 --> 34:14 You know... 34:14 --> 34:14 And... 34:14 --> 34:15 Um... 34:15 --> 34:15 You know... 34:15 --> 34:16 So it's... 34:16 --> 34:17 It's more akin to... 34:17 --> 34:18 Uh... 34:18 --> 34:19 To the stuff that you would hear... 34:19 --> 34:20 In some of... 34:20 --> 34:22 In some of Peckinpah's... 34:22 --> 34:23 Um... 34:23 --> 34:24 Other... 34:24 --> 34:26 Other films... 34:26 --> 34:27 Um... 34:27 --> 34:27 So I think... 34:27 --> 34:28 Yeah... 34:28 --> 34:30 Probably a number of the scenes... 34:30 --> 34:30 Uh... 34:30 --> 34:31 Play... 34:31 --> 34:32 Uh... 34:32 --> 34:34 Play quite differently... 34:34 --> 34:35 Um... 34:35 --> 34:35 I... 34:35 --> 34:36 I mean... 34:36 --> 34:37 It's one of the first things... 34:37 --> 34:38 I... 34:38 --> 34:38 You realise... 34:38 --> 34:40 When you watch the theatrical cut... 34:40 --> 34:42 If you've seen any of the Peckinpah films... 34:42 --> 34:43 Is how... 34:43 --> 34:45 Inappropriate the score is... 34:45 --> 34:46 Because... 34:46 --> 34:47 After the Apaches... 34:47 --> 34:48 After the Apaches... 34:48 --> 34:51 Have massacred this settlement... 34:51 --> 34:52 As soon as you see... 34:52 --> 34:54 A shot of the main leader... 34:54 --> 34:55 A guy called Sierra Chiriba... 34:55 --> 34:56 You hear this like... 34:56 --> 34:58 Electronic doorbell sound... 34:58 --> 34:59 And it appears... 34:59 --> 35:00 Every time... 35:00 --> 35:01 Either the Apaches... 35:01 --> 35:03 Are seen or mentioned... 35:03 --> 35:03 Yes... 35:03 --> 35:04 There's like... 35:04 --> 35:05 Which doesn't... 35:05 --> 35:06 Which doesn't happen... 35:06 --> 35:07 And they're restored cut at all... 35:07 --> 35:08 Yeah... 35:08 --> 35:08 There's this like... 35:08 --> 35:10 Electronic doorbell sound... 35:10 --> 35:12 And then right after that... 35:12 --> 35:12 You get... 35:12 --> 35:14 When you get the main titles... 35:14 --> 35:15 Titles coming up... 35:15 --> 35:18 You get this jaunty military march... 35:18 --> 35:19 With lyrics... 35:19 --> 35:21 About falling in behind... 35:21 --> 35:22 The major... 35:22 --> 35:23 And it's just... 35:23 --> 35:24 So... 35:24 --> 35:25 Far removed... 35:25 --> 35:27 From what you would expect... 35:27 --> 35:28 From a Peckinpah film... 35:28 --> 35:30 And from... 35:30 --> 35:31 What you see... 35:31 --> 35:33 What you hear... 35:33 --> 35:34 In films... 35:34 --> 35:35 Like The Wild Bunch... 35:35 --> 35:37 It's just... 35:37 --> 35:38 I mean that to me... 35:38 --> 35:39 Was the first sign that... 35:39 --> 35:39 Oh yeah... 35:39 --> 35:41 The studio have definitely... 35:41 --> 35:42 Messed around with this... 35:42 --> 35:43 Hmm... 35:43 --> 35:44 Um... 35:44 --> 35:46 That... 35:46 --> 35:47 That is... 35:47 --> 35:49 That is definitely true... 35:49 --> 35:50 Um... 35:50 --> 35:50 So... 35:50 --> 35:51 Like I have heard... 35:51 --> 35:52 The theme song... 35:52 --> 35:53 And I... 35:53 --> 35:54 Yes... 35:54 --> 35:55 It definitely doesn't... 35:55 --> 35:57 It doesn't fit the movie... 35:57 --> 35:58 I'm sure it probably doesn't fit... 35:58 --> 35:59 Even the... 35:59 --> 36:00 The slightly jaunty... 36:00 --> 36:02 Less gory... 36:02 --> 36:02 Um... 36:02 --> 36:04 Theatrical cut... 36:04 --> 36:05 Because that's another... 36:05 --> 36:07 Difference between the extended cut... 36:07 --> 36:08 And the theatrical cut... 36:08 --> 36:09 There is more gore... 36:09 --> 36:10 There is more... 36:10 --> 36:12 When you see those massacre scenes... 36:12 --> 36:12 There's... 36:12 --> 36:13 You definitely see more... 36:14 --> 36:15 Um... 36:15 --> 36:16 Uh... 36:16 --> 36:17 In terms of... 36:17 --> 36:18 In terms of bloodiness... 36:18 --> 36:19 Um... 36:19 --> 36:20 Uh... 36:20 --> 36:21 There's also... 36:21 --> 36:22 Um... 36:22 --> 36:25 There's also little to no slow-mo... 36:25 --> 36:25 Which... 36:25 --> 36:26 Um... 36:26 --> 36:27 There's none of that... 36:27 --> 36:29 I think... 36:29 --> 36:30 I think like that... 36:30 --> 36:33 I think that really comes to the fore... 36:33 --> 36:34 In... 36:34 --> 36:35 With the Wild Bunch... 36:35 --> 36:36 Um... 36:36 --> 36:37 So... 36:37 --> 36:37 Yeah... 36:37 --> 36:39 So even in the restored cut... 36:39 --> 36:40 There's not really any kind of... 36:40 --> 36:42 That kind of... 36:42 --> 36:43 That kind of slow-mo stuff... 36:43 --> 36:44 That... 36:44 --> 36:45 Um... 36:45 --> 36:45 Uh... 36:45 --> 36:45 Would... 36:45 --> 36:46 Would come... 36:46 --> 36:47 Later... 36:47 --> 36:48 Yeah... 36:48 --> 36:48 Yeah... 36:48 --> 36:48 I mean... 36:48 --> 36:49 Also... 36:49 --> 36:50 As well... 36:50 --> 36:50 Um... 36:50 --> 36:50 I mean... 36:50 --> 36:51 Speaking of... 36:51 --> 36:52 Uh... 36:52 --> 36:53 Speaking of kind of... 36:53 --> 36:54 Peck and car... 36:54 --> 36:55 Trademarks... 36:55 --> 36:56 I mean... 36:56 --> 36:57 One thing that... 36:57 --> 36:59 Comes across is that... 36:59 --> 37:00 Dundee's army... 37:00 --> 37:01 Although... 37:01 --> 37:01 And again... 37:01 --> 37:03 This is going back to... 37:03 --> 37:06 The whole thing of moral ambiguity... 37:06 --> 37:07 They're actually... 37:07 --> 37:09 Not really portrayed... 37:09 --> 37:11 In that many shades of grey... 37:11 --> 37:12 They're all kind of... 37:12 --> 37:14 They're not really given much... 37:14 --> 37:15 To distinguish them as characters... 37:15 --> 37:17 Apart from... 37:17 --> 37:18 Apart from... 37:18 --> 37:18 Uh... 37:18 --> 37:20 The youngest officer... 37:20 --> 37:20 Ryan... 37:20 --> 37:22 And the character of... 37:22 --> 37:23 Lieutenant Graham... 37:23 --> 37:24 Yeah... 37:24 --> 37:24 Who seemed... 37:24 --> 37:26 Who seemed to more like... 37:26 --> 37:27 Of a kind of character... 37:27 --> 37:27 You'd see in like... 37:27 --> 37:29 Sergeant Bilko... 37:29 --> 37:30 Or like a wartime comedy... 37:30 --> 37:32 Or like a military comedy... 37:32 --> 37:33 From like the 50s... 37:33 --> 37:34 He didn't seem like... 37:34 --> 37:36 A character you would see in... 37:36 --> 37:37 Any other pecking path film... 37:37 --> 37:39 He just seemed a bit too broad... 37:39 --> 37:41 Yeah... 37:41 --> 37:42 Kind of... 37:42 --> 37:43 Um... 37:43 --> 37:44 Yeah... 37:44 --> 37:44 No... 37:44 --> 37:45 It was a bit weird... 37:45 --> 37:46 Because like... 37:46 --> 37:47 Um... 37:47 --> 37:48 Uh... 37:48 --> 37:49 I think the other... 37:49 --> 37:50 I think the other... 37:50 --> 37:51 Um... 37:51 --> 37:51 Um... 37:51 --> 37:52 Um... 37:52 --> 37:54 Because... 37:54 --> 37:54 Yeah... 37:54 --> 37:55 He... 37:55 --> 37:56 He does seem... 37:57 --> 37:57 Uh... 37:57 --> 37:59 It's a slightly different... 37:59 --> 38:00 Comedy... 38:00 --> 38:02 To what you might get in a pecking path film... 38:02 --> 38:03 Although... 38:03 --> 38:04 I will say... 38:04 --> 38:05 In terms of the comedy... 38:05 --> 38:06 Of the film... 38:06 --> 38:08 Um... 38:08 --> 38:09 Uh... 38:09 --> 38:10 The... 38:10 --> 38:13 The kind of characters... 38:13 --> 38:15 That are kind of supposed to be funny... 38:15 --> 38:16 Um... 38:16 --> 38:16 Uh... 38:16 --> 38:17 Wiley... 38:17 --> 38:18 And... 38:18 --> 38:19 Priam... 38:19 --> 38:20 Um... 38:20 --> 38:21 Played by... 38:21 --> 38:21 Um... 38:21 --> 38:23 Peckinpah... 38:23 --> 38:24 Regulars... 38:24 --> 38:25 Um... 38:25 --> 38:26 Slim Pickens... 38:26 --> 38:27 And Dub Taylor... 38:27 --> 38:28 Um... 38:28 --> 38:29 They... 38:29 --> 38:30 They're kind of more... 38:30 --> 38:31 Like... 38:31 --> 38:31 They're quite broad... 38:31 --> 38:33 But I wouldn't say that they're out of place... 38:33 --> 38:35 In a Peckinpah film... 38:35 --> 38:35 Because I guess... 38:35 --> 38:37 Because they're kind of dirty characters... 38:37 --> 38:37 You know... 38:37 --> 38:38 Wiley's just kind of like... 38:38 --> 38:39 Drunk... 38:39 --> 38:40 And you know... 38:40 --> 38:40 Like... 38:40 --> 38:41 Yeah... 38:41 --> 38:42 Whereas the character... 38:42 --> 38:43 Dodgy... 38:43 --> 38:44 Yeah... 38:44 --> 38:45 Whereas the character of Graham... 38:45 --> 38:46 Is very straight-laced... 38:46 --> 38:47 And clean-cut... 38:47 --> 38:48 And... 38:48 --> 38:49 Yeah... 38:49 --> 38:49 Yeah... 38:49 --> 38:50 It just seems... 38:50 --> 38:50 Yeah... 38:50 --> 38:51 He just... 38:51 --> 38:53 That character would not fit at all... 38:53 --> 38:55 In the Wild Bunch... 38:55 --> 38:55 Yeah... 38:55 --> 38:56 Or even like... 38:56 --> 38:56 A modern day... 38:56 --> 38:58 To use a modern day equivalent... 38:58 --> 38:58 Uh... 38:58 --> 38:59 Of Fredo Garcia... 38:59 --> 39:01 Or The Getaway... 39:01 --> 39:02 That's true... 39:02 --> 39:02 That's true... 39:02 --> 39:02 And... 39:02 --> 39:03 Mind you... 39:03 --> 39:04 You know... 39:04 --> 39:04 Like... 39:04 --> 39:05 You did say that... 39:05 --> 39:06 Like... 39:06 --> 39:06 Uh... 39:06 --> 39:07 Off... 39:07 --> 39:08 Off record... 39:08 --> 39:09 You did say that... 39:09 --> 39:09 Like... 39:09 --> 39:09 It's... 39:09 --> 39:10 There's not... 39:10 --> 39:11 Um... 39:11 --> 39:12 There's not a lot... 39:12 --> 39:13 That makes it... 39:13 --> 39:13 In your mind... 39:13 --> 39:14 Stand out... 39:14 --> 39:15 As like a... 39:15 --> 39:15 No... 39:15 --> 39:17 As like a Peckinpah film... 39:17 --> 39:20 But one thing that very much does make it stand out... 39:20 --> 39:20 Um... 39:20 --> 39:22 As a Peckinpah film... 39:22 --> 39:23 Is you've got... 39:23 --> 39:24 Nearly all... 39:24 --> 39:26 I think pretty much all... 39:26 --> 39:28 Of the Peckinpah all-stars... 39:28 --> 39:29 Of his kind of repertory company... 39:29 --> 39:30 Because... 39:30 --> 39:31 Like... 39:31 --> 39:32 In terms of actors he works regularly with... 39:32 --> 39:33 We got... 39:33 --> 39:35 And we will see them again... 39:35 --> 39:36 Many times... 39:36 --> 39:38 When we go over the course of this... 39:38 --> 39:39 Of this... 39:39 --> 39:40 This series... 39:40 --> 39:40 Um... 39:40 --> 39:41 We've got... 39:41 --> 39:42 James Coburn... 39:42 --> 39:43 War Notes... 39:43 --> 39:44 R.J. 39:44 --> 39:45 Armstrong... 39:45 --> 39:45 L.Q. 39:45 --> 39:46 Jones... 39:46 --> 39:46 Slim Pickens... 39:47 --> 39:48 And Dub Taylor... 39:48 --> 39:49 All actors... 39:49 --> 39:50 Who work with them... 39:50 --> 39:51 Several times... 39:51 --> 39:53 And are very firmly... 39:53 --> 39:54 Part of this kind of... 39:54 --> 39:56 Repertory company of actors... 39:56 --> 39:57 Um... 39:57 --> 39:58 So we do have that... 39:58 --> 39:59 Yeah... 39:59 --> 40:00 I mean... 40:00 --> 40:01 I feel like... 40:01 --> 40:02 Um... 40:02 --> 40:04 You can tell Peckinpah was impressed... 40:04 --> 40:06 By Coburn's performance in this... 40:06 --> 40:07 As the... 40:07 --> 40:08 As the guy who's... 40:08 --> 40:09 As Sam... 40:09 --> 40:10 The guy who's close to the... 40:10 --> 40:12 To the natives... 40:12 --> 40:13 Because... 40:13 --> 40:14 You can sort of tell that... 40:14 --> 40:15 He... 40:15 --> 40:17 He would kind of become... 40:17 --> 40:18 A Peckinpah regular... 40:18 --> 40:19 Based on... 40:20 --> 40:21 I mean... 40:21 --> 40:23 I mean... 40:23 --> 40:23 I mean... 40:23 --> 40:23 You can... 40:23 --> 40:23 I mean... 40:23 --> 40:26 He seems to be the one that fits in most... 40:26 --> 40:26 With sort of Peckinpah... 40:26 --> 40:29 Whatever Peckinpah's original vision... 40:29 --> 40:31 Would have been for the film... 40:31 --> 40:32 I feel... 40:32 --> 40:33 Yeah... 40:33 --> 40:33 That... 40:33 --> 40:34 That's true... 40:34 --> 40:34 That's true... 40:34 --> 40:35 Also... 40:35 --> 40:35 Yes... 40:35 --> 40:35 I... 40:35 --> 40:36 I forgot to mention... 40:36 --> 40:37 Also Ben Johnson... 40:37 --> 40:40 Who's in a number of Peckinpah's films as well... 40:40 --> 40:40 So like... 40:40 --> 40:40 Um... 40:40 --> 40:41 So yeah... 40:41 --> 40:41 You got... 40:41 --> 40:43 You got all of them... 40:43 --> 40:43 But yes... 40:43 --> 40:45 You're right about the James Coburn thing... 40:45 --> 40:46 Like... 40:46 --> 40:47 I wasn't quite sure... 40:47 --> 40:47 Like... 40:47 --> 40:48 They seem to have given... 40:48 --> 40:49 Like... 40:49 --> 40:50 I know this is the 60s... 40:50 --> 40:51 And... 40:51 --> 40:51 You know... 40:51 --> 40:51 Like... 40:51 --> 40:52 You know... 40:52 --> 40:53 They... 40:53 --> 40:55 It wasn't entirely clear to me... 40:55 --> 40:56 I know he's kind of... 40:56 --> 40:57 Kind of like... 40:57 --> 40:58 A tracker... 40:58 --> 40:59 Um... 40:59 --> 41:00 Potts is kind of a tracker... 41:00 --> 41:02 Who is... 41:02 --> 41:02 Friendly... 41:03 --> 41:03 With the... 41:03 --> 41:05 With the Native Americans... 41:05 --> 41:06 Knows the Native Americans... 41:06 --> 41:07 But... 41:07 --> 41:09 I'm not sure if we're supposed to believe... 41:09 --> 41:11 He is a Native American... 41:11 --> 41:11 No... 41:11 --> 41:12 I think... 41:12 --> 41:13 He kind of has like... 41:13 --> 41:15 A little bit of a brown face job... 41:15 --> 41:16 But like... 41:16 --> 41:16 I think... 41:16 --> 41:17 Not entirely... 41:17 --> 41:18 I just wasn't sure... 41:19 --> 41:19 Yeah... 41:19 --> 41:20 What he's supposed to... 41:20 --> 41:22 What we're supposed to think... 41:22 --> 41:24 Because if he is supposed to be... 41:24 --> 41:25 A Native American... 41:25 --> 41:25 Then... 41:25 --> 41:26 Um... 41:26 --> 41:26 Like... 41:26 --> 41:27 James Coburn... 41:27 --> 41:29 Looks nothing like a Native American... 41:29 --> 41:29 You know... 41:29 --> 41:31 I think he's supposed to be... 41:31 --> 41:33 I think he's supposed to be a white guy... 41:33 --> 41:33 Who's... 41:33 --> 41:35 To use air quotes here... 41:35 --> 41:36 Gone Native... 41:36 --> 41:37 Right... 41:37 --> 41:38 He's developed an affinity... 41:38 --> 41:41 To the Native Americans... 41:41 --> 41:41 And he's... 41:41 --> 41:44 And he's developed a closeness to them... 41:44 --> 41:45 So that he can pick up... 41:45 --> 41:46 Understand their language... 41:46 --> 41:47 Either that... 41:47 --> 41:48 Or... 41:48 --> 41:49 And the way they are... 41:49 --> 41:50 On their customs... 41:50 --> 41:51 On their culture... 41:51 --> 41:52 Either that... 41:52 --> 41:54 Or he's maybe meant to be mixed race... 41:54 --> 41:56 But I feel like if he was... 41:56 --> 41:57 That would have been brought up more... 41:57 --> 41:59 They'd have called him a half-breed... 41:59 --> 41:59 Or something... 41:59 --> 42:01 It would have been made more explicit... 42:01 --> 42:02 Possibly... 42:02 --> 42:02 Possibly... 42:02 --> 42:03 So I'm leaning towards... 42:03 --> 42:05 I'm leaning more towards him being a white man... 42:05 --> 42:07 Having to use... 42:07 --> 42:08 An old-fashioned expression... 42:08 --> 42:09 Gone Native... 42:09 --> 42:11 I think that was meant to be... 42:11 --> 42:12 The impression there... 42:12 --> 42:14 But speaking of the natives... 42:14 --> 42:15 Yeah... 42:15 --> 42:17 They're really not given... 42:17 --> 42:19 Even for the 60s... 42:19 --> 42:21 It's pretty bad representation... 42:21 --> 42:21 Isn't it? 42:22 --> 42:23 Oh... 42:23 --> 42:23 Yes... 42:23 --> 42:24 So yeah... 42:24 --> 42:25 We should get that... 42:25 --> 42:27 Because one of the... 42:27 --> 42:29 And I think what makes... 42:29 --> 42:31 Maybe the Extended Cut better... 42:31 --> 42:32 Is like... 42:32 --> 42:34 There is a bit more moral ambiguity... 42:34 --> 42:35 And there is a bit more... 42:35 --> 42:38 Kind of like... 42:38 --> 42:40 Why are we even doing this? 42:41 --> 42:41 Like... 42:41 --> 42:43 Because... 42:43 --> 42:43 And I don't... 42:43 --> 42:44 Do you get this scene in... 42:44 --> 42:45 In Theatrical Cut? 42:46 --> 42:47 Because they get the children back... 42:47 --> 42:49 Like halfway through the movie... 42:49 --> 42:49 Yeah... 42:49 --> 42:50 Yeah... 42:50 --> 42:50 That's... 42:50 --> 42:53 That's in the theatrical cuts... 42:53 --> 42:53 Yeah... 42:53 --> 42:53 Okay... 42:53 --> 42:54 Right... 42:54 --> 42:54 So... 42:54 --> 42:55 So... 42:55 --> 42:57 So they get the children back... 42:57 --> 42:58 Like halfway through the movie... 42:58 --> 43:00 So it becomes more and more dubious... 43:00 --> 43:00 Like... 43:00 --> 43:01 Because the original intention... 43:01 --> 43:02 Is... 43:02 --> 43:03 The... 43:03 --> 43:03 The... 43:03 --> 43:04 Like... 43:04 --> 43:05 After the opening massacre... 43:05 --> 43:07 That happens... 43:07 --> 43:08 Um... 43:08 --> 43:09 They've... 43:09 --> 43:10 The... 43:10 --> 43:11 The Apaches have... 43:11 --> 43:12 Um... 43:12 --> 43:13 Kidnapped... 43:13 --> 43:14 Um... 43:14 --> 43:15 The... 43:15 --> 43:15 The... 43:15 --> 43:16 The boys... 43:16 --> 43:17 Um... 43:17 --> 43:18 Of the town... 43:18 --> 43:19 Um... 43:19 --> 43:21 So they can train them up to be warriors... 43:21 --> 43:22 Kind of thing... 43:22 --> 43:22 Um... 43:22 --> 43:25 So the original intention of the mission... 43:25 --> 43:26 Is... 43:26 --> 43:26 Like... 43:26 --> 43:27 Basically... 43:27 --> 43:28 Get the children back... 43:28 --> 43:30 That's like the original intention... 43:30 --> 43:31 Um... 43:31 --> 43:32 But... 43:32 --> 43:32 Um... 43:32 --> 43:33 They get the children back... 43:33 --> 43:34 Like halfway through the film... 43:34 --> 43:35 Um... 43:35 --> 43:35 So you're like... 43:35 --> 43:36 Okay... 43:36 --> 43:37 Um... 43:37 --> 43:38 And then... 43:38 --> 43:38 So it... 43:38 --> 43:41 I guess that does count towards the kind of... 43:41 --> 43:42 Moral ambiguity... 43:42 --> 43:45 Of like... 43:45 --> 43:45 Like... 43:45 --> 43:47 So this is just a vengeance mission now... 43:47 --> 43:48 Because like... 43:48 --> 43:48 The... 43:48 --> 43:50 The mission has been completed... 43:50 --> 43:51 They could like... 43:51 --> 43:51 Go... 43:51 --> 43:51 I mean... 43:51 --> 43:53 And also that would get... 43:53 --> 43:53 And this like... 43:53 --> 43:54 Kind of goes to like... 43:54 --> 43:55 The kind of... 43:55 --> 43:56 Dundee being kind of... 43:56 --> 43:58 More morally grey as well... 43:58 --> 43:59 Because like... 43:59 --> 44:00 At that point... 44:00 --> 44:01 They're not... 44:01 --> 44:02 In that... 44:02 --> 44:02 You know... 44:02 --> 44:03 Like they could also like... 44:03 --> 44:05 Get away easily from the... 44:05 --> 44:06 You know... 44:06 --> 44:06 Like... 44:06 --> 44:09 They've not pissed off the French as much either... 44:09 --> 44:10 Like... 44:10 --> 44:10 Like... 44:10 --> 44:11 They've not... 44:11 --> 44:12 At that point... 44:12 --> 44:13 At that point... 44:13 --> 44:14 They've not even... 44:14 --> 44:15 Entered the town... 44:15 --> 44:16 To... 44:16 --> 44:16 To... 44:16 --> 44:17 To... 44:17 --> 44:17 To like... 44:17 --> 44:18 To like... 44:18 --> 44:18 Blow up the... 44:18 --> 44:20 The French fort or whatever... 44:20 --> 44:21 Um... 44:21 --> 44:22 So like... 44:22 --> 44:22 So like... 44:22 --> 44:23 He... 44:23 --> 44:23 He... 44:23 --> 44:25 He wastes a lot of lives... 44:25 --> 44:26 Basically on this... 44:26 --> 44:27 Because like... 44:27 --> 44:28 Because he... 44:28 --> 44:29 They could have gone away at that point... 44:29 --> 44:30 Because they've got the children... 44:30 --> 44:32 So the mission is technically complete... 44:32 --> 44:34 Halfway through the film... 44:34 --> 44:35 Well... 44:35 --> 44:35 I think... 44:35 --> 44:36 I think... 44:36 --> 44:38 The moral ambiguity... 44:38 --> 44:39 Would... 44:39 --> 44:41 Be more clearer... 44:41 --> 44:41 If... 44:41 --> 44:43 The native characters... 44:43 --> 44:46 Were sort of portrayed as anything more than just... 44:46 --> 44:48 Stock stereotypes... 44:48 --> 44:48 Because... 44:48 --> 44:49 Yeah... 44:49 --> 44:49 I mean... 44:49 --> 44:49 I mean... 44:49 --> 44:49 I mean... 44:49 --> 44:52 They're not really given any opportunity to... 44:52 --> 44:55 They're barely given any dialogue in English... 44:55 --> 44:55 Even the... 44:55 --> 44:56 Um... 44:56 --> 44:57 Dundee's... 44:57 --> 44:58 Main... 44:58 --> 44:59 Apache scout... 44:59 --> 45:00 Riago... 45:00 --> 45:02 He's barely given any dialogue... 45:02 --> 45:04 And kind of disappears from the film... 45:04 --> 45:05 Midway through... 45:05 --> 45:07 And then there's another native character... 45:07 --> 45:08 Who again... 45:08 --> 45:09 Has his dialogue... 45:09 --> 45:10 Translated for him... 45:10 --> 45:11 The old guy... 45:11 --> 45:13 And he's kind of depicted as being... 45:13 --> 45:15 Kind of stupid and backward... 45:15 --> 45:15 And... 45:15 --> 45:16 And... 45:16 --> 45:17 And also... 45:17 --> 45:18 So you don't see... 45:18 --> 45:18 So... 45:18 --> 45:19 So... 45:19 --> 45:20 When you say... 45:20 --> 45:21 So in the... 45:21 --> 45:23 What happens to Riago in the theatrical cut? 45:24 --> 45:25 I don't know... 45:25 --> 45:26 Because we never see him again... 45:26 --> 45:29 He disappears midway through the film... 45:29 --> 45:29 Oh... 45:29 --> 45:30 Right... 45:30 --> 45:31 So this cuts to like... 45:31 --> 45:33 The stronger violence in the extended cut... 45:33 --> 45:33 And like... 45:33 --> 45:36 It just makes it a sadder story... 45:36 --> 45:37 Um... 45:37 --> 45:38 Like... 45:38 --> 45:39 So in the extended cut... 45:39 --> 45:41 You do see Riago... 45:41 --> 45:41 Like... 45:41 --> 45:43 He disappears from the movie... 45:43 --> 45:44 Um... 45:44 --> 45:44 But... 45:44 --> 45:45 Like... 45:45 --> 45:47 You see him... 45:47 --> 45:48 He's been killed by the Apache... 45:48 --> 45:49 He's been like... 45:49 --> 45:51 Kind of pinned to a tree... 45:51 --> 45:51 Um... 45:51 --> 45:52 And he... 45:52 --> 45:52 You know... 45:52 --> 45:53 He is... 45:53 --> 45:54 He is dead... 45:54 --> 45:56 And there's this kind of sad narration... 45:56 --> 45:57 About... 45:57 --> 45:58 From Ryan... 45:58 --> 45:59 Um... 45:59 --> 46:00 About how like... 46:00 --> 46:01 Basically nobody trusted Riago... 46:01 --> 46:02 And it turned out... 46:02 --> 46:03 We... 46:03 --> 46:05 We should have trusted him the whole time... 46:05 --> 46:06 And like... 46:06 --> 46:07 Um... 46:07 --> 46:09 And it's like a real sad moment... 46:09 --> 46:10 And it's like... 46:10 --> 46:10 Yeah... 46:10 --> 46:11 You bastards... 46:11 --> 46:12 You know... 46:12 --> 46:12 You... 46:12 --> 46:13 This guy... 46:13 --> 46:14 Who's been helping me all the time... 46:14 --> 46:15 And you've... 46:15 --> 46:16 You've... 46:16 --> 46:16 You've... 46:16 --> 46:18 You've not trusted... 46:18 --> 46:18 You... 46:18 --> 46:18 You... 46:18 --> 46:19 You've... 46:19 --> 46:19 You know... 46:19 --> 46:19 Like... 46:19 --> 46:20 It just like... 46:20 --> 46:22 And it's a real anger-inducing moment... 46:22 --> 46:22 That this... 46:22 --> 46:23 This... 46:23 --> 46:24 This character... 46:24 --> 46:24 Who's... 46:24 --> 46:25 Who has like... 46:25 --> 46:27 Done everything to support them... 46:27 --> 46:28 Has like... 46:28 --> 46:30 Been treated badly by them the whole time... 46:30 --> 46:32 And now has been murdered... 46:32 --> 46:33 Um... 46:33 --> 46:34 For his efforts... 46:34 --> 46:35 And displayed in the desert... 46:35 --> 46:36 You know... 46:36 --> 46:36 Like... 46:36 --> 46:37 It just... 46:37 --> 46:38 Well... 46:38 --> 46:38 Yeah... 46:38 --> 46:38 That... 46:38 --> 46:38 That... 46:38 --> 46:40 That should have been kept in... 46:40 --> 46:42 Because in the theatrical cut... 46:42 --> 46:43 We get Ryan's narration... 46:43 --> 46:44 About how nobody... 46:44 --> 46:46 Really trusts Riago... 46:46 --> 46:47 And neither does he... 46:47 --> 46:49 And there's this sort of impression... 46:49 --> 46:49 That they... 46:49 --> 46:50 That you get... 46:50 --> 46:51 That all the men... 46:51 --> 46:53 In Dundee's... 46:53 --> 46:53 Um... 46:53 --> 46:54 Army... 46:54 --> 46:54 Including... 46:54 --> 46:56 Including the clean-cut Ryan... 46:56 --> 46:58 Don't trust Apaches... 46:58 --> 47:01 And they are justified in doing so... 47:01 --> 47:03 And this scene... 47:03 --> 47:05 Subverts that really... 47:05 --> 47:06 Yes... 47:06 --> 47:06 It... 47:06 --> 47:06 It... 47:06 --> 47:06 It... 47:06 --> 47:06 It... 47:06 --> 47:07 It... 47:07 --> 47:07 It... 47:07 --> 47:07 It... 47:07 --> 47:08 It... 47:08 --> 47:08 It... 47:08 --> 47:08 Partially... 47:08 --> 47:09 Partially... 47:09 --> 47:10 Partially... 47:10 --> 47:11 Partially... 47:11 --> 47:13 Partially... 47:13 --> 47:13 And... 47:13 --> 47:15 I think... 47:15 --> 47:16 In some ways... 47:16 --> 47:18 It slightly redeems... 47:18 --> 47:21 The terrible representation... 47:21 --> 47:22 Of the Apache... 47:22 --> 47:23 Because... 47:23 --> 47:24 It like... 47:24 --> 47:25 Shifts the film... 47:25 --> 47:26 Into... 47:26 --> 47:27 Like... 47:27 --> 47:28 And there's a number of scenes... 47:28 --> 47:29 That I think... 47:29 --> 47:30 That... 47:30 --> 47:31 A number of little moments... 47:31 --> 47:31 That I think... 47:31 --> 47:32 Does this... 47:32 --> 47:33 That obviously separates this... 47:33 --> 47:34 From the... 47:34 --> 47:35 The theatrical cook-up... 47:36 --> 47:36 Like... 47:36 --> 47:37 Because... 47:37 --> 47:38 There is... 47:39 --> 47:40 Like... 47:40 --> 47:41 The central... 47:41 --> 47:41 You know... 47:41 --> 47:42 For a modern... 47:42 --> 47:43 Liberal watcher... 47:43 --> 47:43 You know... 47:43 --> 47:44 The central problem... 47:44 --> 47:45 Of the film... 47:45 --> 47:46 Is like... 47:46 --> 47:46 You know... 47:46 --> 47:47 It's kind of like... 47:47 --> 47:48 The... 47:48 --> 47:50 Heroic... 47:50 --> 47:50 Troops... 47:50 --> 47:51 Against the... 47:51 --> 47:53 The big bad Apache... 47:53 --> 47:54 But in the extended cut... 47:54 --> 47:56 It's less like that... 47:56 --> 47:56 It is... 47:56 --> 47:58 It is much more... 47:58 --> 47:59 You do get much more... 47:59 --> 48:00 In the sense of like... 48:00 --> 48:01 This is... 48:02 --> 48:03 Dundee's mission... 48:04 --> 48:05 It's his thing... 48:05 --> 48:07 It's his obsession... 48:07 --> 48:07 And like... 48:07 --> 48:09 They're going along with it... 48:09 --> 48:09 And like... 48:09 --> 48:11 They're not necessarily... 48:11 --> 48:12 Kind of heroic... 48:12 --> 48:13 And then like... 48:13 --> 48:13 And you know... 48:13 --> 48:14 Like... 48:14 --> 48:15 Particularly this thing... 48:15 --> 48:16 With Riago... 48:16 --> 48:17 Where they... 48:17 --> 48:19 They don't trust him all the time... 48:19 --> 48:19 And then he's... 48:19 --> 48:20 Yeah... 48:20 --> 48:20 He's... 48:20 --> 48:21 He's... 48:21 --> 48:22 He's left for dead... 48:22 --> 48:23 In this... 48:23 --> 48:24 This terrific way... 48:24 --> 48:26 You know... 48:26 --> 48:26 Like... 48:26 --> 48:28 It's... 48:28 --> 48:28 Yeah... 48:28 --> 48:29 I think it does... 48:29 --> 48:30 Cut to the moral ambiguity... 48:30 --> 48:31 And it... 48:31 --> 48:32 It does... 48:32 --> 48:33 I think... 48:33 --> 48:34 The theatrical cut... 48:34 --> 48:34 From what it's... 48:34 --> 48:36 From what it sounds like... 48:36 --> 48:36 The... 48:36 --> 48:37 The one that came out... 48:37 --> 48:39 It does sound like a more... 48:39 --> 48:41 Uncomfortable watch... 48:41 --> 48:41 Because... 48:41 --> 48:42 Even in the... 48:42 --> 48:44 Even in the extended cut... 48:45 --> 48:46 There is this kind of like... 48:46 --> 48:47 Like... 48:47 --> 48:48 I would have liked... 48:48 --> 48:49 A little bit... 48:49 --> 48:49 The... 48:49 --> 48:51 The kind of diving... 48:51 --> 48:52 Maybe even deeper... 48:52 --> 48:52 Into the... 48:52 --> 48:53 The moral ambiguity... 48:53 --> 48:55 And maybe even more... 48:55 --> 48:56 Into the sense... 48:56 --> 48:58 That this is a wrong... 48:58 --> 48:59 Headed... 48:59 --> 49:00 Mission... 49:00 --> 49:02 Because like you say... 49:02 --> 49:04 You would never really get the sense of that... 49:04 --> 49:05 The only kind of... 49:05 --> 49:06 Real risk is... 49:06 --> 49:07 Pissing off the French... 49:07 --> 49:08 Right... 49:08 --> 49:08 In the... 49:08 --> 49:09 Theatrical cut... 49:09 --> 49:12 The actual going after the Apaches itself... 49:12 --> 49:13 Isn't really... 49:13 --> 49:14 Treated as a big issue... 49:14 --> 49:15 It's very much... 49:15 --> 49:16 Standard Cowboys... 49:16 --> 49:17 Versus Red Injuns... 49:17 --> 49:19 Traditional narrative... 49:19 --> 49:19 That you got... 49:19 --> 49:20 Back in... 49:20 --> 49:21 Back in... 49:21 --> 49:21 You know... 49:21 --> 49:22 That was commonplace... 49:22 --> 49:23 Back in those days... 49:23 --> 49:24 Yes... 49:24 --> 49:24 And you know... 49:24 --> 49:26 There is really no... 49:26 --> 49:27 There is no real sense... 49:27 --> 49:29 That Dundee's mission... 49:29 --> 49:29 To actually... 49:29 --> 49:30 To pursue... 49:30 --> 49:31 You know... 49:31 --> 49:32 The Apaches... 49:32 --> 49:34 And Cheriba... 49:34 --> 49:35 Is really... 49:35 --> 49:36 As insane... 49:36 --> 49:36 Or... 49:36 --> 49:37 Is really that insane... 49:37 --> 49:38 Or foolhardy... 49:38 --> 49:39 It just seems like... 49:39 --> 49:41 Well that's what he's got to do... 49:41 --> 49:42 Because he's the hero... 49:42 --> 49:43 And Cheriba... 49:43 --> 49:44 Is the evil... 49:44 --> 49:45 Red Injun... 49:45 --> 49:47 And that's it... 49:47 --> 49:47 You know... 49:47 --> 49:48 It never is sort of... 49:48 --> 49:49 It never... 49:49 --> 49:49 You know... 49:49 --> 49:50 It doesn't feel like... 49:50 --> 49:51 This sort of... 49:51 --> 49:52 Mad... 49:52 --> 49:53 Bigoted quest... 49:53 --> 49:54 Yeah... 49:54 --> 49:56 Which I definitely think... 49:56 --> 49:57 In the extended cut... 49:57 --> 49:59 It feels more like... 49:59 --> 50:00 Um... 50:00 --> 50:02 Even though... 50:02 --> 50:03 It is... 50:03 --> 50:05 Even in the extended cut... 50:05 --> 50:06 The representation... 50:06 --> 50:06 Of... 50:06 --> 50:07 Of the Apache... 50:07 --> 50:07 Is... 50:07 --> 50:08 Is terrible... 50:08 --> 50:09 Like... 50:09 --> 50:10 They are just completely... 50:10 --> 50:12 One dimensional... 50:12 --> 50:13 Evil... 50:13 --> 50:14 You know... 50:14 --> 50:14 Um... 50:14 --> 50:15 But... 50:15 --> 50:16 I think... 50:16 --> 50:17 Like I say... 50:17 --> 50:18 What slightly redeems it... 50:18 --> 50:19 And makes it... 50:19 --> 50:21 A better movie... 50:21 --> 50:22 Is that... 50:22 --> 50:23 You do get this... 50:23 --> 50:24 Greater sense... 50:24 --> 50:26 Of it being a slightly... 50:26 --> 50:27 Of it being a kind of... 50:27 --> 50:29 Unhinged mission... 50:29 --> 50:29 Um... 50:29 --> 50:32 And of the... 50:32 --> 50:32 The... 50:32 --> 50:33 While... 50:33 --> 50:34 The... 50:34 --> 50:35 Dundee... 50:35 --> 50:36 And his men... 50:36 --> 50:37 Are still treated... 50:37 --> 50:38 Semi-heroically... 50:38 --> 50:39 There is... 50:39 --> 50:41 Definitely more... 50:41 --> 50:41 Doubt... 50:41 --> 50:43 Cast on them... 50:43 --> 50:44 About... 50:44 --> 50:45 The kind of... 50:45 --> 50:46 Their... 50:46 --> 50:47 Nobility... 50:47 --> 50:47 Um... 50:47 --> 50:48 You know... 50:48 --> 50:48 Um... 50:48 --> 50:49 Or... 50:49 --> 50:50 The kind of... 50:50 --> 50:52 Their priorities... 50:52 --> 50:52 Um... 50:52 --> 50:53 Of their mission... 50:53 --> 50:54 And it's definitely... 50:54 --> 50:55 And like... 50:55 --> 50:55 You... 50:55 --> 50:56 Like... 50:56 --> 50:57 There is definitely... 50:57 --> 50:57 That... 50:57 --> 50:59 That greater sense... 50:59 --> 51:00 Um... 51:00 --> 51:01 Of... 51:01 --> 51:01 Of... 51:01 --> 51:02 Uh... 51:02 --> 51:02 Tension... 51:02 --> 51:03 And a greater sense... 51:03 --> 51:04 That... 51:04 --> 51:04 You know... 51:04 --> 51:05 Um... 51:05 --> 51:06 Throughout the movie... 51:06 --> 51:07 Between... 51:07 --> 51:08 Uh... 51:08 --> 51:08 Ty... 51:08 --> 51:09 Tyreen... 51:09 --> 51:10 And... 51:10 --> 51:10 Uh... 51:10 --> 51:11 Dundee... 51:11 --> 51:11 And... 51:11 --> 51:11 Uh... 51:11 --> 51:12 The kind of... 51:12 --> 51:13 Awkwardness between their... 51:13 --> 51:14 Their men... 51:14 --> 51:15 And... 51:15 --> 51:15 The... 51:15 --> 51:16 The one attempt... 51:16 --> 51:16 Uh... 51:16 --> 51:17 They kind of... 51:17 --> 51:19 Nearly ran away... 51:19 --> 51:19 And... 51:19 --> 51:20 Um... 51:20 --> 51:21 Uh... 51:21 --> 51:21 In... 51:21 --> 51:21 In... 51:21 --> 51:22 In the extended cut... 51:22 --> 51:23 And stuff... 51:23 --> 51:24 Um... 51:24 --> 51:25 So... 51:25 --> 51:25 So... 51:25 --> 51:25 So... 51:25 --> 51:26 Yeah... 51:26 --> 51:26 So... 51:26 --> 51:27 So... 51:27 --> 51:27 So... 51:27 --> 51:27 So... 51:27 --> 51:27 Yeah... 51:27 --> 51:28 It does make it... 51:28 --> 51:29 Um... 51:29 --> 51:30 More... 51:30 --> 51:31 Morally murky... 51:31 --> 51:32 In... 51:32 --> 51:33 The kind of... 51:33 --> 51:34 Traditional... 51:34 --> 51:36 Peckinpah way... 51:36 --> 51:36 Than... 51:36 --> 51:38 From the sounds of it... 51:38 --> 51:39 Um... 51:39 --> 51:39 Uh... 51:39 --> 51:40 The theatrical cut... 51:40 --> 51:41 Which seems a lot more... 51:41 --> 51:42 In many ways... 51:42 --> 51:43 From... 51:43 --> 51:43 From... 51:43 --> 51:45 From the score down... 51:45 --> 51:46 Seems... 51:46 --> 51:46 Uh... 51:46 --> 51:47 More... 51:47 --> 51:48 Kind of like... 51:48 --> 51:50 A straightforward... 51:50 --> 51:51 Adventure... 51:51 --> 51:52 From... 51:52 --> 51:53 From the time... 51:53 --> 51:55 I mean it also reflects... 51:55 --> 51:56 I guess that... 51:56 --> 51:57 1965... 51:57 --> 51:58 When the film... 51:58 --> 52:00 Was made and came out... 52:00 --> 52:00 Was kind of... 52:00 --> 52:02 An interesting turning point... 52:02 --> 52:03 Because whilst you were getting... 52:03 --> 52:04 Hollywood... 52:04 --> 52:05 Starting to modernise... 52:05 --> 52:07 And get a bit more used to say... 52:07 --> 52:08 Ideas of sex... 52:08 --> 52:09 And violence... 52:09 --> 52:11 And multiculturalism... 52:11 --> 52:12 It was still... 52:12 --> 52:13 A ways off... 52:13 --> 52:15 A few years off... 52:15 --> 52:15 Say... 52:15 --> 52:17 The ending of the Hays Code... 52:17 --> 52:19 And films such as... 52:19 --> 52:20 Little Big Man... 52:20 --> 52:21 And Soldier Blue... 52:21 --> 52:22 Which took a very different... 52:22 --> 52:23 View of... 52:23 --> 52:25 The violence... 52:25 --> 52:26 Enacted on... 52:26 --> 52:27 Native Americans... 52:28 --> 52:28 And... 52:28 --> 52:29 It feels like... 52:29 --> 52:30 In a way... 52:30 --> 52:30 Major Dundee... 52:30 --> 52:31 Sort of feels like... 52:31 --> 52:32 A last gasp... 52:32 --> 52:33 At that traditional... 52:33 --> 52:34 Sort of... 52:34 --> 52:35 Yeah... 52:35 --> 52:36 Hollywood... 52:36 --> 52:37 Western... 52:37 --> 52:38 Very much white... 52:38 --> 52:38 Male... 52:38 --> 52:39 Dominated... 52:39 --> 52:40 View... 52:40 --> 52:41 Of the Old West... 52:41 --> 52:42 And... 52:42 --> 52:43 Of the conflicts... 52:43 --> 52:45 Therein... 52:45 --> 52:46 Yeah... 52:46 --> 52:47 Because like you say... 52:47 --> 52:48 It'd still be another... 52:48 --> 52:51 We're still a couple of years away... 52:51 --> 52:51 From... 52:51 --> 52:53 The kind of... 52:53 --> 52:54 Boom... 52:54 --> 52:55 Of... 52:55 --> 52:57 Revisionist Westerns... 52:57 --> 52:58 That... 52:58 --> 52:59 We would start to get... 52:59 --> 53:00 And obviously... 53:00 --> 53:01 Wild Bunches... 53:01 --> 53:02 Is... 53:02 --> 53:02 Is a big... 53:02 --> 53:04 Is a big part of that... 53:04 --> 53:05 And... 53:05 --> 53:05 Yeah... 53:05 --> 53:07 You get all sorts of... 53:07 --> 53:08 Kind of... 53:08 --> 53:11 Revisionist Westerns... 53:11 --> 53:11 Kind of post... 53:11 --> 53:12 You know... 53:12 --> 53:13 In that kind of... 53:13 --> 53:14 Once... 53:14 --> 53:15 New Hollywood... 53:15 --> 53:16 Kind of becomes... 53:16 --> 53:17 A... 53:17 --> 53:18 A big thing... 53:18 --> 53:19 You know... 53:19 --> 53:19 Obviously... 53:19 --> 53:20 In terms of... 53:20 --> 53:21 Screen violence... 53:21 --> 53:22 Um... 53:22 --> 53:23 Um... 53:23 --> 53:24 Bonnie and Clyde... 53:24 --> 53:24 Is... 53:24 --> 53:25 Is often... 53:25 --> 53:26 Given... 53:26 --> 53:26 As a kind of... 53:26 --> 53:27 Big turning point... 53:27 --> 53:30 That coming out in 67... 53:30 --> 53:30 Um... 53:30 --> 53:32 And then... 53:32 --> 53:32 You know... 53:32 --> 53:33 I mean... 53:33 --> 53:34 Some people would argue... 53:34 --> 53:34 That... 53:34 --> 53:35 New Hollywood... 53:35 --> 53:36 Really started... 53:36 --> 53:37 The year before... 53:37 --> 53:38 But on a more... 53:38 --> 53:38 Indie level... 53:38 --> 53:39 But like... 53:39 --> 53:40 But... 53:40 --> 53:40 I think... 53:40 --> 53:41 In the mainstream... 53:41 --> 53:42 I think... 53:42 --> 53:43 Bonnie and Clyde... 53:43 --> 53:44 Is often cited... 53:44 --> 53:44 As a... 53:44 --> 53:45 It's a big... 53:45 --> 53:45 Uh... 53:45 --> 53:47 Turning point... 53:47 --> 53:47 And then... 53:47 --> 53:47 Yeah... 53:47 --> 53:49 In the late 60s... 53:49 --> 53:49 Early 70s... 53:49 --> 53:50 You would start to get... 53:50 --> 53:52 These revisionist Westerns... 53:52 --> 53:53 Like the Wild Bunch... 53:53 --> 53:54 Like things like... 53:54 --> 53:55 McCabe and Mrs. Miller... 53:55 --> 53:55 And... 53:55 --> 53:56 You know... 53:56 --> 53:57 Things like that... 53:57 --> 53:58 That shows... 53:58 --> 54:00 A kind of... 54:00 --> 54:01 Um... 54:01 --> 54:02 A much... 54:02 --> 54:03 More... 54:03 --> 54:04 Morally... 54:04 --> 54:04 Gray... 54:04 --> 54:04 Morally... 54:04 --> 54:05 Bankrupt... 54:05 --> 54:06 Much... 54:06 --> 54:07 Dirtier... 54:07 --> 54:07 Um... 54:07 --> 54:08 Vision... 54:08 --> 54:09 Um... 54:09 --> 54:09 Uh... 54:09 --> 54:11 Of the West... 54:11 --> 54:12 And then we... 54:12 --> 54:12 Then we had previously... 54:12 --> 54:15 Than we had previously seen... 54:15 --> 54:15 Um... 54:15 --> 54:16 And... 54:16 --> 54:16 Yeah... 54:16 --> 54:18 We started getting... 54:18 --> 54:19 A better representation... 54:19 --> 54:21 Um... 54:21 --> 54:21 Not... 54:21 --> 54:22 Because it's interesting... 54:22 --> 54:23 Of... 54:23 --> 54:23 Of... 54:23 --> 54:23 Of... 54:23 --> 54:24 Of all... 54:24 --> 54:25 Of all characters... 54:25 --> 54:25 You know... 54:25 --> 54:27 A better representation... 54:27 --> 54:27 Of... 54:27 --> 54:27 Uh... 54:27 --> 54:28 You know... 54:28 --> 54:28 Of... 54:28 --> 54:28 Of... 54:28 --> 54:29 Of... 54:29 --> 54:29 Of... 54:29 --> 54:29 Of... 54:29 --> 54:30 Of... 54:30 --> 54:30 Of... 54:30 --> 54:31 Of... 54:31 --> 54:31 Of... 54:31 --> 54:32 Of... 54:32 --> 54:33 Of... 54:33 --> 54:33 Of... 54:33 --> 54:33 Of... 54:33 --> 54:33 Of... 54:33 --> 54:33 Of... 54:33 --> 54:33 Of... 54:33 --> 54:34 Of... 54:34 --> 54:34 Of... 54:34 --> 54:34 Of... 54:34 --> 54:35 And yes... 54:35 --> 54:36 You can look back at those... 54:36 --> 54:36 Like... 54:36 --> 54:37 Some of these ones... 54:37 --> 54:37 And... 54:37 --> 54:37 And say... 54:37 --> 54:38 Like... 54:38 --> 54:39 It's not perfect... 54:39 --> 54:39 Compared to... 54:39 --> 54:41 The standards we would expect now... 54:41 --> 54:41 But... 54:41 --> 54:42 You know... 54:42 --> 54:43 Certainly... 54:43 --> 54:44 This was... 54:44 --> 54:45 When things were changing... 54:45 --> 54:46 In the late 60s... 54:46 --> 54:47 Early 70s... 54:47 --> 54:48 And starting to get... 54:48 --> 54:48 A bit... 54:48 --> 54:49 A little bit... 54:49 --> 54:51 Better representation... 54:51 --> 54:53 Than we had previously seen... 54:53 --> 54:53 Yeah... 54:53 --> 54:54 I mean... 54:54 --> 54:55 I mean... 54:55 --> 54:56 I always kind of saw... 54:56 --> 54:57 Peckinpast being very much... 54:57 --> 54:59 A new Hollywood director... 54:59 --> 54:59 I guess... 54:59 --> 55:01 Because the films I've seen of him... 55:01 --> 55:02 Were mostly from... 55:02 --> 55:03 That kind of late 60s... 55:03 --> 55:05 Early 70s turning point... 55:05 --> 55:05 So... 55:05 --> 55:07 It is quite weird... 55:07 --> 55:08 Seeing him make a... 55:08 --> 55:10 Classical Hollywood film... 55:10 --> 55:11 At... 55:11 --> 55:12 At sort of... 55:12 --> 55:13 The last sort of... 55:13 --> 55:14 End of that era... 55:14 --> 55:16 Another thing I also noticed... 55:16 --> 55:17 Were the use of... 55:17 --> 55:19 The use of children... 55:19 --> 55:21 Compared with the Wild Bunch... 55:21 --> 55:22 Because... 55:22 --> 55:23 Obviously in the Wild Bunch... 55:23 --> 55:25 Children are shown... 55:25 --> 55:26 As being exposed... 55:26 --> 55:28 To the adult violence... 55:28 --> 55:28 Around them... 55:28 --> 55:30 And being corrupted by it... 55:30 --> 55:31 Yes... 55:31 --> 55:32 There's the scene of the beginning... 55:32 --> 55:33 Where they're... 55:33 --> 55:34 With the scorpion... 55:34 --> 55:35 The scorpion of the ants... 55:35 --> 55:37 They're putting in the ant hill... 55:37 --> 55:37 Yeah... 55:37 --> 55:38 And here... 55:38 --> 55:39 They're really just used... 55:39 --> 55:41 As innocent plot devices... 55:41 --> 55:42 Like the scene where... 55:42 --> 55:43 They recover... 55:43 --> 55:45 Then from the Apache... 55:45 --> 55:46 When James... 55:46 --> 55:47 When James Coburn... 55:47 --> 55:50 Brings them back to the camp... 55:50 --> 55:50 They're shown... 55:50 --> 55:52 Just playing with bows and arrows... 55:52 --> 55:53 Again... 55:53 --> 55:55 Like it's a comedy scene... 55:55 --> 55:56 And... 55:56 --> 55:57 They're shown... 55:57 --> 55:58 As just interacting... 55:58 --> 56:00 With Dundee's men... 56:00 --> 56:02 Like it's no problem at all... 56:02 --> 56:03 And it feels... 56:03 --> 56:03 Just so... 56:03 --> 56:05 Disneyfied... 56:05 --> 56:06 Compared to the effects... 56:06 --> 56:07 Of violence... 56:07 --> 56:07 On children... 56:07 --> 56:08 That we see... 56:08 --> 56:09 In the Wild Bunch... 56:09 --> 56:11 Yeah... 56:11 --> 56:11 No... 56:11 --> 56:12 That's true... 56:12 --> 56:13 And... 56:13 --> 56:14 It is interesting... 56:14 --> 56:14 Because like... 56:14 --> 56:15 Like... 56:15 --> 56:16 Peckinpah... 56:16 --> 56:17 Is... 56:18 --> 56:19 A kind of... 56:19 --> 56:20 Curious character... 56:20 --> 56:21 In that way... 56:21 --> 56:21 Because like... 56:23 --> 56:26 I think he is more associated... 56:26 --> 56:27 With the... 56:27 --> 56:27 With... 56:27 --> 56:28 With... 56:28 --> 56:29 With New Hollywood... 56:29 --> 56:31 Um... 56:31 --> 56:31 But he... 56:31 --> 56:33 Is like... 56:33 --> 56:33 Yeah... 56:33 --> 56:34 I think like... 56:34 --> 56:36 He does have a slightly different background... 56:36 --> 56:37 Like... 56:37 --> 56:38 Because I guess like... 56:38 --> 56:38 You know... 56:38 --> 56:41 When people think of New Hollywood... 56:41 --> 56:42 Um... 56:42 --> 56:43 They think about... 56:43 --> 56:44 Um... 56:44 --> 56:46 They think about Coppola... 56:46 --> 56:47 They think about... 56:47 --> 56:48 Scorsese... 56:48 --> 56:49 They think about Spielberg... 56:49 --> 56:50 They think about... 56:50 --> 56:50 You know... 56:50 --> 56:51 George Lucas... 56:51 --> 56:51 You know... 56:51 --> 56:52 Whatever... 56:52 --> 56:53 And... 56:53 --> 56:54 Um... 56:54 --> 56:55 You know... 56:55 --> 56:55 Uh... 56:55 --> 56:57 Coppola was born... 56:57 --> 56:58 In... 56:58 --> 56:58 You know... 56:58 --> 57:00 Tail end of the 30s... 57:00 --> 57:00 Um... 57:00 --> 57:01 And... 57:01 --> 57:02 Um... 57:02 --> 57:03 Like... 57:03 --> 57:04 Lucas Spielberg... 57:04 --> 57:05 And... 57:05 --> 57:05 Um... 57:05 --> 57:06 Scorsese... 57:06 --> 57:07 Were all born... 57:07 --> 57:08 In the 40s... 57:08 --> 57:09 And a lot of the New Hollywood directors... 57:09 --> 57:11 Were kind of... 57:11 --> 57:12 Come from that time... 57:12 --> 57:13 They were kind of like... 57:13 --> 57:14 You know... 57:14 --> 57:15 Young at the time... 57:15 --> 57:16 Um... 57:16 --> 57:17 But... 57:17 --> 57:17 Um... 57:17 --> 57:18 And even... 57:18 --> 57:18 Like... 57:18 --> 57:19 De Palma... 57:19 --> 57:19 Same... 57:19 --> 57:21 He was born in like... 57:21 --> 57:23 39 or 40 or whatever... 57:23 --> 57:24 Whereas like... 57:24 --> 57:26 Peckinpah comes from a different generation... 57:26 --> 57:29 Peckinpah was born in 1925... 57:29 --> 57:30 And like... 57:30 --> 57:31 Much like... 57:31 --> 57:31 I mean... 57:31 --> 57:32 I guess... 57:32 --> 57:33 One of the other kind of big... 57:33 --> 57:34 New Hollywood directors... 57:34 --> 57:36 Who's considered new Hollywood directors... 57:36 --> 57:37 Is Robert Altman... 57:37 --> 57:38 Is the same... 57:38 --> 57:39 Also born in 1925... 57:39 --> 57:40 And... 57:40 --> 57:40 Like... 57:40 --> 57:41 They came up through... 57:41 --> 57:41 Like... 57:41 --> 57:42 Yeah... 57:42 --> 57:43 They just have like... 57:43 --> 57:44 A different... 57:44 --> 57:46 It took them longer to get to like... 57:46 --> 57:46 Their... 57:46 --> 57:47 Their vision or whatever... 57:47 --> 57:48 And they did like... 57:48 --> 57:48 You know... 57:48 --> 57:49 Peckinpah... 57:49 --> 57:50 As I discovered... 57:50 --> 57:52 Did like a lot of TV stuff... 57:52 --> 57:53 Before like... 57:53 --> 57:53 Um... 57:53 --> 57:54 He got into films... 57:54 --> 57:55 And he's a bit... 57:55 --> 57:56 You know... 57:56 --> 57:58 Even when he made his debut film... 57:58 --> 57:59 The Deadly Companions... 57:59 --> 58:02 Which we obviously talked about in the first episode... 58:02 --> 58:02 You know... 58:02 --> 58:03 He was 37... 58:03 --> 58:04 He wasn't just like... 58:04 --> 58:05 You know... 58:05 --> 58:06 Out of film school... 58:06 --> 58:07 Or anything like that... 58:07 --> 58:08 Um... 58:08 --> 58:10 So he is steeped in that... 58:10 --> 58:11 Old West... 58:11 --> 58:12 You know... 58:12 --> 58:14 That kind of classic... 58:14 --> 58:15 Uh... 58:15 --> 58:15 You know... 58:15 --> 58:16 Ford West... 58:16 --> 58:16 And... 58:16 --> 58:17 And... 58:17 --> 58:17 And all that... 58:17 --> 58:18 You know... 58:18 --> 58:19 So he does have... 58:19 --> 58:21 Even though he subverts it... 58:21 --> 58:21 And he... 58:21 --> 58:23 He does something different with it... 58:23 --> 58:25 And he has like a much more... 58:26 --> 58:27 Uh... 58:27 --> 58:28 Nihilistic... 58:28 --> 58:29 Um... 58:29 --> 58:30 Vision of humanity... 58:30 --> 58:31 And a much more... 58:31 --> 58:32 Kind of like... 58:32 --> 58:33 Uh... 58:33 --> 58:33 Uh... 58:33 --> 58:35 Different relationship with... 58:35 --> 58:36 Uh... 58:36 --> 58:36 With... 58:36 --> 58:36 Uh... 58:36 --> 58:37 Violence... 58:37 --> 58:37 And... 58:37 --> 58:38 And... 58:38 --> 58:38 And... 58:38 --> 58:38 And... 58:38 --> 58:40 The study of violence... 58:40 --> 58:41 And... 58:41 --> 58:41 And... 58:41 --> 58:41 And... 58:41 --> 58:42 And masculinity... 58:42 --> 58:43 Uh... 58:43 --> 58:44 Compared to those... 58:44 --> 58:44 Uh... 58:44 --> 58:45 Classic West... 58:45 --> 58:45 He still... 58:45 --> 58:48 He still has that in his DNA as well... 58:48 --> 58:49 I guess... 58:49 --> 58:49 Um... 58:49 --> 58:51 So it's not entirely surprising... 58:51 --> 58:52 But like... 58:52 --> 58:53 I mean obviously... 58:53 --> 58:54 Um... 58:54 --> 58:55 Once he... 58:55 --> 58:57 Once he got the kind of scope... 58:57 --> 58:58 That he could like... 58:58 --> 58:59 Do his own vision... 58:59 --> 59:01 Obviously we saw... 59:01 --> 59:01 You know... 59:01 --> 59:03 What he really wanted to... 59:03 --> 59:04 Um... 59:04 --> 59:05 Press on ahead with... 59:05 --> 59:06 Or where his... 59:06 --> 59:07 Where his thinking evolved to... 59:07 --> 59:07 At that point... 59:07 --> 59:09 But it is interesting though... 59:09 --> 59:11 Comparing sort of Altman... 59:11 --> 59:11 And Peckinpah... 59:11 --> 59:13 Because you could argue that... 59:13 --> 59:15 Altman maybe... 59:15 --> 59:16 I don't know whether he changed with the times... 59:16 --> 59:18 But certainly the way he portrayed... 59:18 --> 59:19 Like minorities... 59:20 --> 59:20 Um... 59:20 --> 59:21 And female characters... 59:21 --> 59:24 Certainly became a lot more modern... 59:24 --> 59:26 In comparison with say... 59:26 --> 59:27 Peckinpah... 59:27 --> 59:28 Like... 59:28 --> 59:29 That is true... 59:29 --> 59:29 That is true... 59:29 --> 59:30 I think they're very different people... 59:30 --> 59:31 Yeah... 59:31 --> 59:32 Yeah... 59:32 --> 59:33 But funnily enough... 59:33 --> 59:34 Watching this film... 59:34 --> 59:36 I kind of feel like this is the... 59:36 --> 59:38 And this doesn't say... 59:38 --> 59:39 A lot good about Peckinpah... 59:39 --> 59:40 For all I like him... 59:40 --> 59:41 Sadly... 59:41 --> 59:42 But from what I've seen... 59:42 --> 59:44 Of Peckinpah's films... 59:44 --> 59:45 This is the only one... 59:45 --> 59:46 Where I feel... 59:46 --> 59:48 The female characters... 59:48 --> 59:50 Are treated with more... 59:50 --> 59:52 With the most respect... 59:52 --> 59:53 And that is kind of... 59:53 --> 59:54 That isn't saying much... 59:54 --> 59:56 Because they're very much... 59:56 --> 59:58 Generic love interests... 59:58 --> 01:00:00 But they're still given... 01:00:00 --> 01:00:00 I think... 01:00:00 --> 01:00:02 More respect than... 01:00:02 --> 01:00:03 Certainly... 01:00:03 --> 01:00:05 Ali McGraw in The Getaway... 01:00:05 --> 01:00:08 And Susan George in Straw Dogs... 01:00:08 --> 01:00:08 Yeah... 01:00:08 --> 01:00:09 So I mean... 01:00:09 --> 01:00:10 Obviously... 01:00:10 --> 01:00:11 You know... 01:00:11 --> 01:00:11 Talking... 01:00:11 --> 01:00:13 Every director has strengths... 01:00:13 --> 01:00:14 And weaknesses... 01:00:14 --> 01:00:15 And... 01:00:15 --> 01:00:17 You know... 01:00:19 --> 01:00:21 Many of Peckinpah's films... 01:00:21 --> 01:00:23 Are problematic... 01:00:23 --> 01:00:24 For a variety of reasons... 01:00:25 --> 01:00:26 If you are... 01:00:26 --> 01:00:28 A watcher of a more liberal bent... 01:00:29 --> 01:00:30 But... 01:00:30 --> 01:00:30 Yeah... 01:00:30 --> 01:00:31 Definitely one of them... 01:00:31 --> 01:00:32 You know... 01:00:32 --> 01:00:33 He is obviously... 01:00:34 --> 01:00:35 Frequently... 01:00:35 --> 01:00:36 Accused... 01:00:36 --> 01:00:37 In many of his films... 01:00:37 --> 01:00:38 Of misogyny... 01:00:39 --> 01:00:40 Now... 01:00:40 --> 01:00:41 You could argue... 01:00:42 --> 01:00:43 That in some of his... 01:00:43 --> 01:00:44 His films... 01:00:44 --> 01:00:45 He is... 01:00:46 --> 01:00:48 Commenting on... 01:00:48 --> 01:00:49 And... 01:00:49 --> 01:00:49 Satirizing... 01:00:50 --> 01:00:51 Toxic masculinity... 01:00:51 --> 01:00:52 As much as he... 01:00:53 --> 01:00:53 Could be said... 01:00:53 --> 01:00:54 To celebrate it... 01:00:55 --> 01:00:57 There is an argument for that... 01:00:57 --> 01:00:57 But certainly... 01:00:58 --> 01:01:00 In terms of his representation... 01:01:01 --> 01:01:02 Of female characters... 01:01:02 --> 01:01:03 His female characters... 01:01:03 --> 01:01:04 Are not good... 01:01:04 --> 01:01:06 They're often... 01:01:06 --> 01:01:07 Underwritten... 01:01:07 --> 01:01:07 And... 01:01:07 --> 01:01:08 His... 01:01:09 --> 01:01:09 Yeah... 01:01:09 --> 01:01:11 It's not... 01:01:11 --> 01:01:13 The character here... 01:01:13 --> 01:01:15 That does come up... 01:01:15 --> 01:01:16 I would say that... 01:01:16 --> 01:01:17 You're right... 01:01:17 --> 01:01:18 I think that... 01:01:18 --> 01:01:18 That... 01:01:18 --> 01:01:19 The kind of... 01:01:19 --> 01:01:20 The kind of... 01:01:20 --> 01:01:23 Even though she is just kind of like... 01:01:23 --> 01:01:25 The love interest... 01:01:25 --> 01:01:26 I think... 01:01:26 --> 01:01:27 The character... 01:01:28 --> 01:01:29 That is... 01:01:29 --> 01:01:31 The main love interest... 01:01:31 --> 01:01:31 The main love interest... 01:01:31 --> 01:01:32 Played by... 01:01:32 --> 01:01:33 Santa Berger... 01:01:33 --> 01:01:34 Teresa... 01:01:34 --> 01:01:35 Is... 01:01:35 --> 01:01:36 Is... 01:01:36 --> 01:01:37 Is... 01:01:37 --> 01:01:38 Is... 01:01:38 --> 01:01:38 Yeah... 01:01:38 --> 01:01:39 Is a... 01:01:39 --> 01:01:40 Is a better character... 01:01:40 --> 01:01:40 And... 01:01:40 --> 01:01:41 And maybe... 01:01:41 --> 01:01:42 I don't know if the... 01:01:42 --> 01:01:44 I don't know if the character itself... 01:01:44 --> 01:01:45 Is well written... 01:01:45 --> 01:01:47 But I certainly think that... 01:01:47 --> 01:01:47 Um... 01:01:47 --> 01:01:48 Santa Berger... 01:01:48 --> 01:01:50 Manages to put in... 01:01:50 --> 01:01:50 Uh... 01:01:50 --> 01:01:52 An impactful performance... 01:01:52 --> 01:01:54 That like... 01:01:54 --> 01:01:54 That... 01:01:54 --> 01:01:55 She's not just... 01:01:55 --> 01:01:56 Uh... 01:01:56 --> 01:01:57 Kind of... 01:01:57 --> 01:01:57 Yeah... 01:01:57 --> 01:01:59 She's not just a kind of... 01:01:59 --> 01:01:59 Uh... 01:01:59 --> 01:02:00 Simpering... 01:02:00 --> 01:02:01 Damage alone in distress... 01:02:01 --> 01:02:01 Or anything... 01:02:01 --> 01:02:03 She is shown to be... 01:02:03 --> 01:02:04 Uh... 01:02:04 --> 01:02:04 Competent... 01:02:04 --> 01:02:05 And... 01:02:05 --> 01:02:05 Like... 01:02:05 --> 01:02:06 She's shown to be... 01:02:06 --> 01:02:07 Like... 01:02:07 --> 01:02:08 You know... 01:02:08 --> 01:02:08 Um... 01:02:08 --> 01:02:09 Somebody... 01:02:09 --> 01:02:10 Who... 01:02:10 --> 01:02:10 Who... 01:02:10 --> 01:02:11 Kind of... 01:02:11 --> 01:02:12 Takes care of things... 01:02:12 --> 01:02:13 And like... 01:02:13 --> 01:02:13 Um... 01:02:13 --> 01:02:14 You know... 01:02:14 --> 01:02:15 And... 01:02:15 --> 01:02:17 Knows what she's about... 01:02:17 --> 01:02:17 And... 01:02:17 --> 01:02:17 Um... 01:02:17 --> 01:02:18 You know... 01:02:18 --> 01:02:20 I think that like... 01:02:20 --> 01:02:20 Uh... 01:02:20 --> 01:02:20 Yeah... 01:02:20 --> 01:02:21 It is... 01:02:21 --> 01:02:21 It is a... 01:02:21 --> 01:02:22 A bit better... 01:02:22 --> 01:02:23 But like... 01:02:23 --> 01:02:24 Um... 01:02:24 --> 01:02:25 I think maybe a lot of that... 01:02:25 --> 01:02:27 Is to do with performance... 01:02:27 --> 01:02:28 More than script... 01:02:28 --> 01:02:28 Necessarily... 01:02:28 --> 01:02:29 I think... 01:02:29 --> 01:02:30 I would say so... 01:02:30 --> 01:02:30 I think... 01:02:30 --> 01:02:33 I think Santa Berger's able to find... 01:02:33 --> 01:02:34 Nuances in a character... 01:02:34 --> 01:02:37 Who I think is meant to be... 01:02:37 --> 01:02:38 Who is quite unrealistic... 01:02:38 --> 01:02:40 In the way she goes from being... 01:02:40 --> 01:02:40 Quite a... 01:02:40 --> 01:02:42 Quite an independent... 01:02:42 --> 01:02:43 Sort of doctor's wife... 01:02:43 --> 01:02:46 To immediately falling into the arms of Dundee... 01:02:46 --> 01:02:46 Um... 01:02:46 --> 01:02:46 Mm... 01:02:46 --> 01:02:47 That's a... 01:02:47 --> 01:02:49 That's a pretty dramatic switch... 01:02:49 --> 01:02:49 And... 01:02:49 --> 01:02:50 Again... 01:02:50 --> 01:02:52 You wonder if stuff was cut out... 01:02:52 --> 01:02:54 Either the scripting stage... 01:02:54 --> 01:02:55 And the production stage... 01:02:55 --> 01:02:56 Or post-production stage... 01:02:56 --> 01:02:57 We'll never know... 01:02:57 --> 01:03:00 That maybe flashed out the relationship a bit more... 01:03:00 --> 01:03:01 But certainly... 01:03:01 --> 01:03:03 She's able to make that transition... 01:03:03 --> 01:03:05 A lot less jarring... 01:03:05 --> 01:03:06 Than it would be with... 01:03:06 --> 01:03:08 Say a lesser actress... 01:03:08 --> 01:03:08 Yeah... 01:03:08 --> 01:03:08 Yeah... 01:03:08 --> 01:03:09 Yeah... 01:03:09 --> 01:03:10 Yeah... 01:03:10 --> 01:03:11 Yeah... 01:03:11 --> 01:03:11 Yeah... 01:03:11 --> 01:03:12 Yeah... 01:03:12 --> 01:03:12 No... 01:03:12 --> 01:03:13 For sure... 01:03:13 --> 01:03:14 I think... 01:03:14 --> 01:03:16 I think Santa Berger's performance... 01:03:16 --> 01:03:16 Is... 01:03:16 --> 01:03:17 Is good... 01:03:17 --> 01:03:17 And... 01:03:17 --> 01:03:18 And like you say... 01:03:18 --> 01:03:20 Um... 01:03:20 --> 01:03:20 The... 01:03:20 --> 01:03:21 Um... 01:03:21 --> 01:03:22 Yeah... 01:03:22 --> 01:03:23 I think it does... 01:03:23 --> 01:03:25 Give... 01:03:25 --> 01:03:27 An extra layer... 01:03:27 --> 01:03:27 To a character... 01:03:27 --> 01:03:29 Who doesn't actually have much layers... 01:03:29 --> 01:03:30 And like you say... 01:03:30 --> 01:03:31 I mean... 01:03:31 --> 01:03:32 Um... 01:03:32 --> 01:03:34 When they first come in... 01:03:34 --> 01:03:34 To this town... 01:03:34 --> 01:03:35 Like... 01:03:35 --> 01:03:36 She is... 01:03:36 --> 01:03:37 She is very much independent... 01:03:37 --> 01:03:38 And she is very much... 01:03:38 --> 01:03:40 Kind of like... 01:03:40 --> 01:03:40 Um... 01:03:40 --> 01:03:42 Almost presented as kind of... 01:03:42 --> 01:03:43 One of the community leaders... 01:03:43 --> 01:03:43 I guess... 01:03:43 --> 01:03:44 Like... 01:03:44 --> 01:03:45 When they first... 01:03:45 --> 01:03:46 When they first arrived... 01:03:46 --> 01:03:46 So like... 01:03:46 --> 01:03:47 She... 01:03:47 --> 01:03:47 You know... 01:03:47 --> 01:03:48 Like... 01:03:48 --> 01:03:49 Because her husband is no longer around... 01:03:49 --> 01:03:50 And... 01:03:50 --> 01:03:50 And like... 01:03:50 --> 01:03:51 He's died... 01:03:51 --> 01:03:51 And... 01:03:51 --> 01:03:52 Um... 01:03:52 --> 01:03:52 And... 01:03:52 --> 01:03:54 And she's kind of... 01:03:54 --> 01:03:54 Like... 01:03:54 --> 01:03:55 Come to the fore... 01:03:55 --> 01:03:56 And is... 01:03:56 --> 01:03:56 Is... 01:03:56 --> 01:03:57 It's obviously one of the kind of... 01:03:57 --> 01:03:59 Important members of the community... 01:03:59 --> 01:04:00 So it... 01:04:00 --> 01:04:00 Yeah... 01:04:00 --> 01:04:01 It doesn't... 01:04:01 --> 01:04:03 Make a massive amount of sense... 01:04:03 --> 01:04:04 That how she just kind of... 01:04:04 --> 01:04:05 Immediately... 01:04:05 --> 01:04:06 Immediately falls... 01:04:06 --> 01:04:06 Although... 01:04:06 --> 01:04:07 There is more of a... 01:04:07 --> 01:04:09 I don't know how much you get... 01:04:09 --> 01:04:10 Of like... 01:04:10 --> 01:04:10 A kind of like... 01:04:10 --> 01:04:11 Because she doesn't just... 01:04:11 --> 01:04:13 Immediately fall for Dundee... 01:04:13 --> 01:04:14 There is a little bit of... 01:04:14 --> 01:04:15 Kind of like... 01:04:15 --> 01:04:16 Like... 01:04:16 --> 01:04:16 Kind of like... 01:04:16 --> 01:04:16 Yeah... 01:04:16 --> 01:04:17 It's kind of like... 01:04:17 --> 01:04:18 Tyrene's trying to... 01:04:18 --> 01:04:19 We're... 01:04:19 --> 01:04:20 And like... 01:04:20 --> 01:04:20 And she's... 01:04:20 --> 01:04:21 And has like... 01:04:21 --> 01:04:23 There's even a kind of comical moment... 01:04:23 --> 01:04:24 Where she kind of has a dance with Graham... 01:04:24 --> 01:04:25 Or whatever... 01:04:25 --> 01:04:25 Yeah... 01:04:25 --> 01:04:26 And kind of... 01:04:26 --> 01:04:28 Tosses Dundee off... 01:04:28 --> 01:04:28 Yeah... 01:04:28 --> 01:04:29 So like... 01:04:29 --> 01:04:30 Um... 01:04:30 --> 01:04:31 You know... 01:04:31 --> 01:04:31 Uh... 01:04:31 --> 01:04:32 Yeah... 01:04:32 --> 01:04:34 You know... 01:04:34 --> 01:04:34 So... 01:04:34 --> 01:04:34 But I mean... 01:04:34 --> 01:04:37 Even the conversations she has with Dundee... 01:04:37 --> 01:04:38 Afterwards... 01:04:38 --> 01:04:39 Before he rides... 01:04:39 --> 01:04:40 Off... 01:04:40 --> 01:04:41 It seems more like... 01:04:41 --> 01:04:41 Like... 01:04:41 --> 01:04:42 She's kind of accepted... 01:04:42 --> 01:04:43 That she'll be with him... 01:04:43 --> 01:04:44 It's not as... 01:04:44 --> 01:04:44 Yeah... 01:04:44 --> 01:04:45 You know... 01:04:45 --> 01:04:46 By that point... 01:04:46 --> 01:04:46 Yeah... 01:04:46 --> 01:04:47 It's true... 01:04:47 --> 01:04:47 I feel like... 01:04:47 --> 01:04:49 There should have been a bit more of a push and pull... 01:04:49 --> 01:04:50 Really... 01:04:50 --> 01:04:52 I think there is initially... 01:04:52 --> 01:04:52 But like... 01:04:52 --> 01:04:53 Yeah... 01:04:53 --> 01:04:53 Like you say... 01:04:53 --> 01:04:54 There's... 01:04:54 --> 01:04:55 It just falls away... 01:04:55 --> 01:04:56 It just falls away... 01:04:56 --> 01:04:56 Like... 01:04:56 --> 01:04:57 I feel like... 01:04:57 --> 01:04:57 I feel like... 01:04:57 --> 01:05:00 I feel like it needs to be a growing attraction... 01:05:00 --> 01:05:00 Mm-hmm... 01:05:00 --> 01:05:01 That... 01:05:01 --> 01:05:01 I... 01:05:01 --> 01:05:01 I don't know... 01:05:01 --> 01:05:04 I just feel like it needed a few more scenes with them... 01:05:04 --> 01:05:05 Yeah... 01:05:05 --> 01:05:05 It could have been... 01:05:05 --> 01:05:09 It could have been interesting if we got like a few more... 01:05:09 --> 01:05:10 Um... 01:05:10 --> 01:05:12 And I guess it could have... 01:05:12 --> 01:05:13 I mean... 01:05:13 --> 01:05:15 It might have been interesting... 01:05:15 --> 01:05:16 You know... 01:05:16 --> 01:05:17 To kind of... 01:05:17 --> 01:05:20 Stoke the kind of rivalry by Tyreen and... 01:05:20 --> 01:05:21 And... 01:05:21 --> 01:05:22 And Dundee even more... 01:05:22 --> 01:05:23 I don't know... 01:05:23 --> 01:05:24 Like... 01:05:24 --> 01:05:24 And... 01:05:24 --> 01:05:27 And exploring that kind of like... 01:05:27 --> 01:05:27 Because... 01:05:27 --> 01:05:28 Because... 01:05:28 --> 01:05:30 Because I feel also like... 01:05:30 --> 01:05:36 The rivalry between Dundee and Tyreen is kind of almost too friendly at that point when they're in Mexico... 01:05:36 --> 01:05:37 Yeah... 01:05:37 --> 01:05:37 And they're sort of... 01:05:37 --> 01:05:39 And their argument over... 01:05:39 --> 01:05:40 Over... 01:05:40 --> 01:05:41 Over... 01:05:41 --> 01:05:41 Over... 01:05:41 --> 01:05:42 Over... 01:05:42 --> 01:05:43 Teresa... 01:05:43 --> 01:05:44 Is kind of... 01:05:44 --> 01:05:46 Played a little too much for laughs... 01:05:46 --> 01:05:48 I would have liked that to be a bit more of a... 01:05:48 --> 01:05:50 I kind of like a spark point... 01:05:50 --> 01:05:53 Maybe to show Dundee going even more erratic... 01:05:53 --> 01:05:57 Or maybe that would be the start of his spiral into darkness... 01:05:57 --> 01:05:57 But... 01:05:57 --> 01:05:58 Yeah... 01:05:58 --> 01:05:59 As it is... 01:05:59 --> 01:05:59 It just... 01:05:59 --> 01:06:00 Yeah... 01:06:00 --> 01:06:01 It just feels... 01:06:01 --> 01:06:02 It feels like... 01:06:02 --> 01:06:04 It feels like there's a lot of ideas... 01:06:04 --> 01:06:07 That are really being brought to fruition... 01:06:07 --> 01:06:10 You're only seeing like the brief sort of start of it... 01:06:10 --> 01:06:12 And then it sort of quickly dies out... 01:06:12 --> 01:06:14 Because that would be too much for a 60... 01:06:14 --> 01:06:17 A 65 audience I guess... 01:06:17 --> 01:06:17 I guess... 01:06:17 --> 01:06:18 I guess... 01:06:18 --> 01:06:20 Or certainly that's what Columbia Pictures... 01:06:20 --> 01:06:21 But... 01:06:21 --> 01:06:23 I think that like... 01:06:23 --> 01:06:23 Yeah... 01:06:23 --> 01:06:24 I mean... 01:06:24 --> 01:06:25 Cutting back to the central point... 01:06:25 --> 01:06:27 That seems to be like one of the main things... 01:06:27 --> 01:06:29 About... 01:06:29 --> 01:06:30 Um... 01:06:30 --> 01:06:31 The theatrical cut-up... 01:06:31 --> 01:06:33 Versus the extended cut... 01:06:33 --> 01:06:35 I definitely think you get more a sense... 01:06:35 --> 01:06:36 Of like... 01:06:36 --> 01:06:38 There are certainly points... 01:06:38 --> 01:06:40 Where Dundee and Tyreen seem quite friendly... 01:06:40 --> 01:06:42 Obviously they were former friends... 01:06:42 --> 01:06:45 And then like Tyreen feels betrayed by him... 01:06:45 --> 01:06:45 And... 01:06:45 --> 01:06:46 Um... 01:06:46 --> 01:06:48 So there is a sense of like... 01:06:48 --> 01:06:49 A kind of like... 01:06:49 --> 01:06:52 That relationship coming back a little bit... 01:06:52 --> 01:06:54 Um... 01:06:54 --> 01:06:55 But also at the same time... 01:06:55 --> 01:06:56 There is... 01:06:56 --> 01:06:57 I think an extended cut... 01:06:57 --> 01:06:59 More of a sense of like... 01:06:59 --> 01:07:01 Tyreen is going through this... 01:07:01 --> 01:07:03 Because he gave his word... 01:07:03 --> 01:07:05 To go through this... 01:07:05 --> 01:07:05 Um... 01:07:06 --> 01:07:06 Uh... 01:07:06 --> 01:07:07 To go through this mission... 01:07:07 --> 01:07:09 But... 01:07:09 --> 01:07:11 There is still a part of him... 01:07:11 --> 01:07:13 That genuinely hates Dundee... 01:07:13 --> 01:07:14 And... 01:07:14 --> 01:07:15 You know... 01:07:15 --> 01:07:16 He makes... 01:07:16 --> 01:07:17 Several threats... 01:07:17 --> 01:07:18 Throughout the movie... 01:07:18 --> 01:07:19 That like basically... 01:07:19 --> 01:07:19 Once this is done... 01:07:19 --> 01:07:21 I am going to kill you... 01:07:21 --> 01:07:22 Um... 01:07:22 --> 01:07:22 Like... 01:07:22 --> 01:07:23 Uh... 01:07:23 --> 01:07:24 In the extended cut... 01:07:24 --> 01:07:24 And there is like... 01:07:24 --> 01:07:26 Little moments... 01:07:26 --> 01:07:27 That happen in the extended cut... 01:07:27 --> 01:07:28 That I know you don't get... 01:07:28 --> 01:07:30 You don't get in the theatrical cut-up... 01:07:30 --> 01:07:31 For example... 01:07:31 --> 01:07:33 And before they ride out... 01:07:33 --> 01:07:34 On the mission... 01:07:34 --> 01:07:35 Um... 01:07:35 --> 01:07:36 Uh... 01:07:36 --> 01:07:37 Before they ride out... 01:07:37 --> 01:07:38 In the mission... 01:07:38 --> 01:07:39 Um... 01:07:39 --> 01:07:41 When they are back at the prison... 01:07:41 --> 01:07:42 Um... 01:07:42 --> 01:07:42 Like... 01:07:42 --> 01:07:43 Dundee... 01:07:43 --> 01:07:44 Gives all the... 01:07:44 --> 01:07:46 Union rebel soldiers... 01:07:46 --> 01:07:47 Um... 01:07:47 --> 01:07:48 No... 01:07:48 --> 01:07:48 No... 01:07:48 --> 01:07:51 All the confederate soldiers... 01:07:51 --> 01:07:51 Um... 01:07:51 --> 01:07:53 Confederate prisoners... 01:07:53 --> 01:07:53 Um... 01:07:53 --> 01:07:54 That gives them all... 01:07:54 --> 01:07:56 Union jackets... 01:07:56 --> 01:07:57 Um... 01:07:57 --> 01:07:57 So they... 01:07:57 --> 01:07:58 You know... 01:07:58 --> 01:07:59 So they all... 01:07:59 --> 01:08:00 Ride out the same... 01:08:00 --> 01:08:01 Or whatever... 01:08:01 --> 01:08:03 And then... 01:08:03 --> 01:08:03 Uh... 01:08:03 --> 01:08:05 Like Tyreen and his men... 01:08:05 --> 01:08:05 Like... 01:08:05 --> 01:08:06 Make this big deal... 01:08:06 --> 01:08:08 Of like... 01:08:08 --> 01:08:09 Um... 01:08:09 --> 01:08:10 Uh... 01:08:10 --> 01:08:10 Like... 01:08:10 --> 01:08:11 Oh no... 01:08:11 --> 01:08:12 They just don't fit... 01:08:12 --> 01:08:13 It looks like... 01:08:13 --> 01:08:13 You know... 01:08:13 --> 01:08:14 Because clearly they... 01:08:14 --> 01:08:15 They fit fine or whatever... 01:08:15 --> 01:08:15 But like... 01:08:15 --> 01:08:16 They just... 01:08:16 --> 01:08:17 They make this big deal of like... 01:08:17 --> 01:08:18 Oh they don't fit... 01:08:18 --> 01:08:19 You know... 01:08:19 --> 01:08:19 The... 01:08:19 --> 01:08:19 The... 01:08:19 --> 01:08:20 The jackets... 01:08:20 --> 01:08:20 We can't... 01:08:20 --> 01:08:21 We can't use these... 01:08:21 --> 01:08:22 And... 01:08:22 --> 01:08:22 And... 01:08:22 --> 01:08:22 And... 01:08:22 --> 01:08:23 And stuff like that... 01:08:23 --> 01:08:25 And we get... 01:08:25 --> 01:08:25 The... 01:08:25 --> 01:08:26 I definitely get... 01:08:26 --> 01:08:27 The sense that... 01:08:27 --> 01:08:29 There is more needle... 01:08:29 --> 01:08:30 Um... 01:08:30 --> 01:08:32 Throughout the extended cut... 01:08:32 --> 01:08:32 Than... 01:08:32 --> 01:08:33 Than... 01:08:33 --> 01:08:33 Than... 01:08:33 --> 01:08:35 Than is coming through... 01:08:35 --> 01:08:35 In... 01:08:35 --> 01:08:36 In the theatrical cut... 01:08:36 --> 01:08:37 I mean... 01:08:37 --> 01:08:38 It could have been... 01:08:38 --> 01:08:38 I mean... 01:08:38 --> 01:08:40 Actually watching it... 01:08:40 --> 01:08:40 It could have gone... 01:08:40 --> 01:08:41 Even further... 01:08:41 --> 01:08:42 And I... 01:08:42 --> 01:08:43 I do think... 01:08:43 --> 01:08:44 Even the extended cut... 01:08:44 --> 01:08:45 It has its weaknesses... 01:08:45 --> 01:08:47 I think one of the main weaknesses... 01:08:47 --> 01:08:48 Is still like... 01:08:48 --> 01:08:50 I think you could have... 01:08:50 --> 01:08:51 Pushed the darkness further... 01:08:51 --> 01:08:52 In terms of the insanity... 01:08:52 --> 01:08:54 Of Dundee's mission... 01:08:54 --> 01:08:55 I think you could have... 01:08:55 --> 01:08:55 Oh definitely... 01:08:55 --> 01:08:57 You could have given... 01:08:57 --> 01:08:58 Um... 01:08:58 --> 01:08:59 You could have... 01:08:59 --> 01:09:01 Given the Apache... 01:09:01 --> 01:09:01 You know... 01:09:01 --> 01:09:03 Like any extra layer... 01:09:03 --> 01:09:03 Like you know... 01:09:03 --> 01:09:05 Because they're just so one dimensional... 01:09:05 --> 01:09:07 Even the next extended cut... 01:09:07 --> 01:09:08 And... 01:09:08 --> 01:09:08 Um... 01:09:08 --> 01:09:09 So I still think... 01:09:09 --> 01:09:10 That... 01:09:10 --> 01:09:11 Like... 01:09:11 --> 01:09:12 You know... 01:09:12 --> 01:09:14 When I was reading this on Letterboxx... 01:09:14 --> 01:09:14 It... 01:09:14 --> 01:09:15 I gave it three and a half... 01:09:15 --> 01:09:17 I would say it's a soft three and a half... 01:09:17 --> 01:09:18 It's like... 01:09:18 --> 01:09:18 It's like... 01:09:18 --> 01:09:19 It's... 01:09:19 --> 01:09:19 Yeah... 01:09:19 --> 01:09:19 I was... 01:09:19 --> 01:09:20 I was like... 01:09:20 --> 01:09:21 I was like... 01:09:21 --> 01:09:22 You know... 01:09:22 --> 01:09:22 Um... 01:09:22 --> 01:09:23 But I think... 01:09:23 --> 01:09:24 I would say more two and a half... 01:09:24 --> 01:09:25 Personally... 01:09:25 --> 01:09:26 Yes... 01:09:26 --> 01:09:26 Yes... 01:09:26 --> 01:09:27 I... 01:09:27 --> 01:09:28 I would say more two and a half... 01:09:28 --> 01:09:28 Personally... 01:09:28 --> 01:09:29 From... 01:09:29 --> 01:09:31 From the sounds of the theatrical cut... 01:09:31 --> 01:09:33 It sounds like it is more of a two and a half... 01:09:33 --> 01:09:34 The theatrical... 01:09:34 --> 01:09:35 The theatrical cut... 01:09:35 --> 01:09:35 Yeah... 01:09:35 --> 01:09:36 Definitely... 01:09:36 --> 01:09:37 Um... 01:09:37 --> 01:09:37 And... 01:09:37 --> 01:09:39 From what I've read about the theatrical cut... 01:09:39 --> 01:09:41 And clips I've seen of the different... 01:09:41 --> 01:09:42 Score... 01:09:42 --> 01:09:43 And... 01:09:43 --> 01:09:43 And... 01:09:43 --> 01:09:43 You know... 01:09:43 --> 01:09:44 The way it kind of... 01:09:44 --> 01:09:45 Yeah... 01:09:45 --> 01:09:45 But... 01:09:45 --> 01:09:48 I think because it slightly ups the darkness... 01:09:48 --> 01:09:48 It slightly... 01:09:48 --> 01:09:49 Kind of... 01:09:49 --> 01:09:52 Makes it more obvious... 01:09:52 --> 01:09:53 The kind of... 01:09:53 --> 01:09:55 Moby Dick comparisons... 01:09:55 --> 01:09:57 The kind of Captain Ahab comparisons... 01:09:57 --> 01:09:59 It makes it slightly more obvious... 01:09:59 --> 01:10:00 And there's... 01:10:00 --> 01:10:02 There's a bit more needle between Tyreen... 01:10:02 --> 01:10:03 And... 01:10:03 --> 01:10:03 And... 01:10:03 --> 01:10:04 Um... 01:10:04 --> 01:10:05 Dundee... 01:10:05 --> 01:10:06 Throughout the movie... 01:10:06 --> 01:10:07 Um... 01:10:07 --> 01:10:09 And there is this kind of... 01:10:09 --> 01:10:09 Um... 01:10:09 --> 01:10:11 And I'm not saying that... 01:10:11 --> 01:10:11 Like... 01:10:11 --> 01:10:13 Extra violence on its own... 01:10:13 --> 01:10:13 Is... 01:10:13 --> 01:10:14 Good... 01:10:14 --> 01:10:15 But because... 01:10:15 --> 01:10:16 Like... 01:10:16 --> 01:10:17 You get this... 01:10:17 --> 01:10:19 Extra layer of kind of nastiness... 01:10:19 --> 01:10:20 It kind of... 01:10:20 --> 01:10:21 Points... 01:10:21 --> 01:10:22 It kind of... 01:10:22 --> 01:10:23 Gives the whole film... 01:10:23 --> 01:10:24 Like... 01:10:24 --> 01:10:24 A... 01:10:24 --> 01:10:25 A darker... 01:10:25 --> 01:10:26 More somber tone... 01:10:26 --> 01:10:28 Than it seems like... 01:10:28 --> 01:10:28 The... 01:10:28 --> 01:10:29 The... 01:10:29 --> 01:10:31 The theatrical cut... 01:10:31 --> 01:10:31 Gives... 01:10:31 --> 01:10:32 Even though there's still... 01:10:32 --> 01:10:34 A bunch of the comedic moments... 01:10:34 --> 01:10:35 You get in the theatrical cut... 01:10:35 --> 01:10:36 And... 01:10:36 --> 01:10:37 Obviously you get some... 01:10:37 --> 01:10:38 Comedy side characters... 01:10:38 --> 01:10:40 That we've talked a little bit about... 01:10:40 --> 01:10:40 So it makes it... 01:10:40 --> 01:10:42 So it makes it seem... 01:10:42 --> 01:10:43 More Peckinpah-like... 01:10:43 --> 01:10:45 It makes it seem more Peckinpah-like... 01:10:45 --> 01:10:46 It does make it seem... 01:10:46 --> 01:10:48 More Peckinpah-like... 01:10:48 --> 01:10:49 And I do think... 01:10:49 --> 01:10:50 That like... 01:10:50 --> 01:10:51 It does... 01:10:51 --> 01:10:52 You know... 01:10:52 --> 01:10:54 Go with Peckinpah's themes... 01:10:54 --> 01:10:55 Of like... 01:10:55 --> 01:10:56 His... 01:10:56 --> 01:10:56 You know... 01:10:56 --> 01:10:57 Obsession of study... 01:10:57 --> 01:10:58 Of... 01:10:58 --> 01:10:58 Of... 01:10:58 --> 01:10:59 Of kind of violence... 01:10:59 --> 01:11:01 But I don't think... 01:11:01 --> 01:11:02 Yeah... 01:11:02 --> 01:11:02 It does... 01:11:02 --> 01:11:04 It does go into more than that... 01:11:04 --> 01:11:04 Yeah... 01:11:04 --> 01:11:05 My main issue was... 01:11:05 --> 01:11:07 Was that the film felt very... 01:11:07 --> 01:11:08 Very generic... 01:11:08 --> 01:11:08 Again... 01:11:08 --> 01:11:10 It felt like a generic western... 01:11:10 --> 01:11:11 But almost could have been made... 01:11:11 --> 01:11:12 By anyone really... 01:11:12 --> 01:11:13 I mean... 01:11:13 --> 01:11:14 And... 01:11:14 --> 01:11:15 I mean... 01:11:15 --> 01:11:16 Going back to the point... 01:11:16 --> 01:11:18 About the character Tyreen... 01:11:18 --> 01:11:19 He does say to... 01:11:19 --> 01:11:21 He does threaten to kill Dundee... 01:11:21 --> 01:11:22 Once the mission is over... 01:11:22 --> 01:11:23 But... 01:11:23 --> 01:11:24 It... 01:11:24 --> 01:11:24 I wanted... 01:11:24 --> 01:11:25 But it does... 01:11:25 --> 01:11:27 But that feels like an empty threat... 01:11:27 --> 01:11:28 It really... 01:11:28 --> 01:11:29 You never get the sense... 01:11:29 --> 01:11:31 That he's going to carry it out... 01:11:31 --> 01:11:32 You really... 01:11:32 --> 01:11:34 You really sort of... 01:11:34 --> 01:11:35 In fact... 01:11:35 --> 01:11:35 Actually... 01:11:35 --> 01:11:37 When he dies at the end... 01:11:37 --> 01:11:39 When he gives his life for Dundees... 01:11:39 --> 01:11:41 It really doesn't come across... 01:11:41 --> 01:11:42 Like a surprise it would... 01:11:42 --> 01:11:43 You sort of... 01:11:43 --> 01:11:45 You can kind of see it coming... 01:11:45 --> 01:11:48 From fairly early on in the narrative... 01:11:48 --> 01:11:48 That... 01:11:48 --> 01:11:49 That... 01:11:49 --> 01:11:49 That... 01:11:49 --> 01:11:49 That... 01:11:49 --> 01:11:49 You know... 01:11:49 --> 01:11:51 That any sort of rivalry they have... 01:11:51 --> 01:11:52 Is sort of... 01:11:52 --> 01:11:54 Really either resolved... 01:11:54 --> 01:11:55 Or... 01:11:55 --> 01:11:57 Isn't really visible enough... 01:11:57 --> 01:11:58 To justify... 01:11:58 --> 01:11:58 That... 01:11:58 --> 01:12:00 That coming across as a shock... 01:12:00 --> 01:12:01 Sort of left turn... 01:12:01 --> 01:12:05 Yeah... 01:12:05 --> 01:12:05 Yeah... 01:12:05 --> 01:12:06 Yeah... 01:12:06 --> 01:12:07 Yeah... 01:12:07 --> 01:12:07 Although before... 01:12:07 --> 01:12:09 Like they kind of... 01:12:09 --> 01:12:10 Like... 01:12:10 --> 01:12:11 I don't know how much... 01:12:11 --> 01:12:11 You know... 01:12:11 --> 01:12:14 It seems like more of a legitimate threat... 01:12:14 --> 01:12:15 In the extended cut... 01:12:15 --> 01:12:16 And did you get the scene... 01:12:16 --> 01:12:16 Where... 01:12:16 --> 01:12:17 Like... 01:12:17 --> 01:12:18 Before... 01:12:18 --> 01:12:19 They get attacked... 01:12:19 --> 01:12:21 Before they have to like... 01:12:21 --> 01:12:22 You know... 01:12:22 --> 01:12:22 He... 01:12:22 --> 01:12:24 He gives his life for Tyreen and his men... 01:12:24 --> 01:12:25 He gives his life... 01:12:25 --> 01:12:27 Tyreen gives his life for... 01:12:27 --> 01:12:28 Dundee and his men... 01:12:28 --> 01:12:30 But before that... 01:12:30 --> 01:12:31 There's a scene... 01:12:31 --> 01:12:31 Just before the... 01:12:31 --> 01:12:33 The French are on the horizon... 01:12:33 --> 01:12:34 Where they're like... 01:12:34 --> 01:12:35 They kind of... 01:12:35 --> 01:12:37 They're like about to throw down... 01:12:39 --> 01:12:39 They're like... 01:12:39 --> 01:12:40 Like... 01:12:40 --> 01:12:41 They're like... 01:12:41 --> 01:12:41 Tyreen's like... 01:12:41 --> 01:12:42 Well... 01:12:42 --> 01:12:43 Should we do it now... 01:12:43 --> 01:12:44 Or should we do it once you cross the border? 01:12:44 --> 01:12:46 And it looks like... 01:12:46 --> 01:12:46 That's... 01:12:46 --> 01:12:47 That's... 01:12:47 --> 01:12:48 Like basically him saying like... 01:12:48 --> 01:12:50 I'm planning to kill you now... 01:12:50 --> 01:12:51 And we're going to have... 01:12:51 --> 01:12:52 Like... 01:12:52 --> 01:12:53 We're going to do this... 01:12:53 --> 01:12:54 So I... 01:12:54 --> 01:12:55 I mean... 01:12:55 --> 01:12:56 I mean... 01:12:56 --> 01:12:59 I don't think that ever really came across as convincing... 01:12:59 --> 01:12:59 It... 01:12:59 --> 01:13:00 I don't know... 01:13:00 --> 01:13:01 It never really... 01:13:01 --> 01:13:05 It never felt to me like Dundee was under threat from Tyreen... 01:13:05 --> 01:13:08 And it never felt to me like Dundee was... 01:13:08 --> 01:13:08 It was... 01:13:08 --> 01:13:10 Was really in danger of... 01:13:10 --> 01:13:12 Had gone completely off the rails... 01:13:12 --> 01:13:13 And... 01:13:13 --> 01:13:15 Was sending... 01:13:15 --> 01:13:15 And was sending... 01:13:15 --> 01:13:16 You know... 01:13:16 --> 01:13:17 His men in a journey into madness... 01:13:17 --> 01:13:19 I never got the... 01:13:19 --> 01:13:21 I never really got any of that... 01:13:21 --> 01:13:21 I mean... 01:13:21 --> 01:13:22 It just... 01:13:22 --> 01:13:23 It all felt very... 01:13:23 --> 01:13:25 Straightforward... 01:13:25 --> 01:13:28 With all the rough edges sort of smoothed out... 01:13:28 --> 01:13:32 And any creases ironed out... 01:13:32 --> 01:13:32 Yeah... 01:13:32 --> 01:13:32 I... 01:13:32 --> 01:13:34 I never really got any... 01:13:34 --> 01:13:35 Any real... 01:13:35 --> 01:13:37 Any real complexity... 01:13:37 --> 01:13:38 Okay... 01:13:38 --> 01:13:38 Okay... 01:13:38 --> 01:13:38 Well... 01:13:38 --> 01:13:39 That's... 01:13:39 --> 01:13:40 That's fair enough... 01:13:40 --> 01:13:42 I think like with the... 01:13:42 --> 01:13:44 It seemed like less hollow... 01:13:44 --> 01:13:45 In the cut that I watched... 01:13:45 --> 01:13:46 It seemed like... 01:13:46 --> 01:13:46 You know... 01:13:46 --> 01:13:47 Like... 01:13:47 --> 01:13:48 Maybe because it's the... 01:13:48 --> 01:13:50 The difference of the kind of... 01:13:50 --> 01:13:52 Level of... 01:13:52 --> 01:13:53 Of... 01:13:53 --> 01:13:54 Of... 01:13:54 --> 01:13:55 Kind of... 01:13:55 --> 01:13:56 You know... 01:13:56 --> 01:13:57 Not so much in terms of the battles... 01:13:57 --> 01:13:59 But in terms of the aftermath of battles... 01:13:59 --> 01:14:01 And the aftermath of the massacre... 01:14:01 --> 01:14:02 You definitely see more... 01:14:02 --> 01:14:03 Kind of... 01:14:03 --> 01:14:04 Gore and violence... 01:14:04 --> 01:14:05 Than you are... 01:14:05 --> 01:14:07 Obviously in the theatrical cut... 01:14:07 --> 01:14:08 And maybe the difference in score... 01:14:09 --> 01:14:11 Kind of tips the tone of the movie differently... 01:14:11 --> 01:14:12 Yeah... 01:14:12 --> 01:14:12 And... 01:14:13 --> 01:14:13 Yeah... 01:14:13 --> 01:14:13 Because... 01:14:13 --> 01:14:14 You're like... 01:14:14 --> 01:14:15 Yeah... 01:14:16 --> 01:14:16 I mean... 01:14:16 --> 01:14:16 I mean... 01:14:16 --> 01:14:18 The score in the battle scenes... 01:14:18 --> 01:14:19 Is quite triumphant... 01:14:19 --> 01:14:20 Right... 01:14:20 --> 01:14:21 It's very sort of... 01:14:21 --> 01:14:22 Triumphant... 01:14:22 --> 01:14:24 Military music... 01:14:24 --> 01:14:25 It gives the impression that... 01:14:25 --> 01:14:27 Dundee is the brave hero... 01:14:27 --> 01:14:28 Kicking ass... 01:14:28 --> 01:14:30 Even in the final battle with the French... 01:14:30 --> 01:14:31 Where he loses like... 01:14:31 --> 01:14:33 A large chunk of his men... 01:14:33 --> 01:14:36 It never has the tragedy... 01:14:37 --> 01:14:38 That it should have... 01:14:38 --> 01:14:41 That even after killing the Apaches... 01:14:41 --> 01:14:41 You know... 01:14:41 --> 01:14:44 They didn't all come back in one piece... 01:14:44 --> 01:14:46 It just feels like a slightly... 01:14:46 --> 01:14:48 Dark afterthought... 01:14:48 --> 01:14:49 Yeah... 01:14:49 --> 01:14:50 Yeah... 01:14:50 --> 01:14:50 So... 01:14:50 --> 01:14:51 Yeah... 01:14:51 --> 01:14:53 Definitely from the sounds of it... 01:14:53 --> 01:14:54 I definitely feel like... 01:14:54 --> 01:14:56 The theatrical cut sounds... 01:14:56 --> 01:14:57 Much... 01:14:58 --> 01:14:59 Um... 01:14:59 --> 01:15:00 Weaker... 01:15:01 --> 01:15:01 Um... 01:15:01 --> 01:15:02 Yeah... 01:15:02 --> 01:15:03 But like... 01:15:03 --> 01:15:03 I would say... 01:15:03 --> 01:15:05 Even the extended cut... 01:15:05 --> 01:15:06 It has its flaws... 01:15:06 --> 01:15:07 I mean... 01:15:07 --> 01:15:09 A lot of them surrounding... 01:15:09 --> 01:15:09 You know... 01:15:09 --> 01:15:11 Just how one-dimensional... 01:15:11 --> 01:15:13 The Native American characters are... 01:15:13 --> 01:15:15 And even though it is darker... 01:15:16 --> 01:15:18 Dundee and his men are still portrayed... 01:15:18 --> 01:15:19 In this kind of semi-heroic way... 01:15:19 --> 01:15:20 Which I... 01:15:20 --> 01:15:22 Which I'm uncomfortable with... 01:15:22 --> 01:15:22 Um... 01:15:22 --> 01:15:23 Yeah... 01:15:23 --> 01:15:24 But it is... 01:15:24 --> 01:15:26 A more interesting experience... 01:15:26 --> 01:15:27 And I do think that... 01:15:27 --> 01:15:27 Um... 01:15:27 --> 01:15:28 The... 01:15:28 --> 01:15:28 The... 01:15:28 --> 01:15:29 The kind of... 01:15:29 --> 01:15:30 Rivalry... 01:15:30 --> 01:15:31 And the kind of... 01:15:31 --> 01:15:32 Um... 01:15:32 --> 01:15:34 The fraught relationship by Tyreen... 01:15:34 --> 01:15:35 And Dundee... 01:15:35 --> 01:15:36 Is... 01:15:37 --> 01:15:37 Uh... 01:15:37 --> 01:15:39 It feels more impactful... 01:15:39 --> 01:15:40 And I think it sounds like... 01:15:40 --> 01:15:41 Most things... 01:15:41 --> 01:15:43 Just feel a bit more... 01:15:43 --> 01:15:44 Impactful in the movie... 01:15:44 --> 01:15:45 So I think... 01:15:45 --> 01:15:48 This is going to be real interesting... 01:15:48 --> 01:15:49 Because we're kind of... 01:15:49 --> 01:15:50 I think we're kind of coming to the... 01:15:50 --> 01:15:51 The... 01:15:51 --> 01:15:51 The end... 01:15:51 --> 01:15:52 And... 01:15:52 --> 01:15:53 Um... 01:15:53 --> 01:15:55 And at the end of the conversation... 01:15:55 --> 01:15:55 Um... 01:15:55 --> 01:15:58 I don't know if you've listened to the other two episodes... 01:15:58 --> 01:15:58 But that... 01:15:58 --> 01:15:59 I'm going to ask you... 01:15:59 --> 01:16:00 Three questions... 01:16:00 --> 01:16:01 Uh... 01:16:01 --> 01:16:02 To kind of... 01:16:02 --> 01:16:02 Unless... 01:16:02 --> 01:16:03 Unless... 01:16:03 --> 01:16:03 Um... 01:16:03 --> 01:16:04 You have any... 01:16:04 --> 01:16:07 Final thoughts before I ask you... 01:16:07 --> 01:16:11 the kind of the questions to round up the episode? 01:16:11 --> 01:16:15 I guess I found the film kind of underwhelming 01:16:15 --> 01:16:18 as a guy who was a fan of Peckinpah's other films. 01:16:18 --> 01:16:21 I guess maybe it helps if you go into it 01:16:21 --> 01:16:23 with either little knowledge of Peckinpah 01:16:23 --> 01:16:28 or a full knowledge of the film's fraught production history, 01:16:28 --> 01:16:31 which I only had a brief sense of. 01:16:31 --> 01:16:34 So I was kind of going into the film semi-blind, really. 01:16:35 --> 01:16:39 And I guess I was just surprised how little Peckinpah there was in it, 01:16:39 --> 01:16:44 both stylistically and thematically and even character-wise. 01:16:44 --> 01:16:47 I felt there was a lot there that had been clearly hacked away 01:16:47 --> 01:16:52 and abbreviated even before, you know, he called action. 01:16:53 --> 01:16:56 Right. Yeah. Yeah. 01:16:56 --> 01:16:58 No, I know what you mean. 01:16:58 --> 01:17:02 Obviously, this film had a very troubled production throughout its production 01:17:02 --> 01:17:08 from the very start, you know, like there was battles over the script. 01:17:08 --> 01:17:12 That's why it's got like kind of three screenwriters and Peckinpah did a rewrite. 01:17:13 --> 01:17:18 And it seems like they were kind of doing things on their hoofs 01:17:18 --> 01:17:22 and didn't maybe have a fully completed script when they started filming. 01:17:23 --> 01:17:27 And then, like I say, you know, because Peckinpah was drunk a lot of the time 01:17:27 --> 01:17:29 and Richard Harris was drunk a lot of the time. 01:17:29 --> 01:17:35 And there was a number of fights and shenanigans and things during filming. 01:17:36 --> 01:17:39 And, you know, Harris and Heston really didn't get on 01:17:39 --> 01:17:44 and, you know, did a lot of things to kind of one up each other. 01:17:45 --> 01:17:50 And apparently Sandra Berger tells a story about how they were trying to, like, 01:17:51 --> 01:17:53 kind of modify their boots. 01:17:53 --> 01:17:58 So, like, so that each looked taller than the other on screen. 01:17:58 --> 01:18:03 Naturally, Heston is naturally taller than Harris, but, like, to kind of, you know, 01:18:03 --> 01:18:06 to kind of look taller than the other on screen, on camera and stuff like that. 01:18:06 --> 01:18:09 You know, so there's a lot of that kind of stuff going on. 01:18:10 --> 01:18:15 Do you think that that maybe led to them cutting out scenes between Dundee and Tyreen? 01:18:15 --> 01:18:16 Possibly. 01:18:16 --> 01:18:22 So that Heston and Harris wouldn't spend as much time on screen sort of, like, you know, arguing? 01:18:23 --> 01:18:24 Possibly. 01:18:24 --> 01:18:25 Possibly. 01:18:26 --> 01:18:32 I'm not 100% sure, but, like, I do know that Harris and Heston really didn't get on. 01:18:32 --> 01:18:38 And apparently, while Sandra Berger didn't actually have any problems with him, 01:18:39 --> 01:18:42 Senter Berger didn't have any problems with him, 01:18:43 --> 01:18:47 it seemed like that, the way she tells it, 01:18:47 --> 01:18:52 it seems like Harris was a bit of a handful for any, like, 01:18:53 --> 01:18:57 the way she phrased it was, like, he didn't get on with any of the men on set. 01:18:59 --> 01:19:00 So, I don't know. 01:19:01 --> 01:19:06 So, it seemed like he was a bit of a tear away at the time. 01:19:07 --> 01:19:10 I guess he was kind of known to be a tear away at the time. 01:19:10 --> 01:19:13 I mean, I think he was starting to build his reputation, really, 01:19:13 --> 01:19:15 because I think by the end of the 70s, 01:19:16 --> 01:19:17 he had sort of built up this reputation, 01:19:18 --> 01:19:21 as did, you know, the other actors of this generation, 01:19:22 --> 01:19:23 Oliver Reed, Peter O'Toole. 01:19:23 --> 01:19:24 Yes. 01:19:24 --> 01:19:27 You know, et cetera, of being a kind of hard-drinking hell raiser, 01:19:27 --> 01:19:30 who, you know, was hard to work with. 01:19:30 --> 01:19:34 And I think that was, I think, really what you saw with Dundee. 01:19:34 --> 01:19:38 And I guess with, was he not in Mutiny of the Bounty as well, 01:19:38 --> 01:19:39 with Brando? 01:19:40 --> 01:19:40 Harris. 01:19:41 --> 01:19:41 Yeah. 01:19:42 --> 01:19:44 I think you might be right there. 01:19:45 --> 01:19:45 Let's check. 01:19:45 --> 01:19:47 Because I think this film and that Bounty film 01:19:47 --> 01:19:51 were probably the start of that kind of building up 01:19:51 --> 01:19:52 that reputation, really. 01:19:53 --> 01:19:53 Yes. 01:19:53 --> 01:19:55 Mutiny of the Bounty, 62. 01:19:55 --> 01:19:55 Yes. 01:19:56 --> 01:19:57 Yes. 01:19:57 --> 01:20:00 Because he mentioned not going on with Brando on that film. 01:20:01 --> 01:20:01 Yeah. 01:20:01 --> 01:20:02 Right. 01:20:02 --> 01:20:02 Yeah. 01:20:02 --> 01:20:02 Yeah. 01:20:02 --> 01:20:02 Yeah. 01:20:03 --> 01:20:03 I think, yeah. 01:20:04 --> 01:20:06 I don't think he was getting on with a lot of people. 01:20:06 --> 01:20:10 And it's quite funny, because, you know, 01:20:10 --> 01:20:15 later on in his career, he comes across very well. 01:20:15 --> 01:20:18 And it's a much more, because, like, 01:20:18 --> 01:20:20 Sainte Berger even mentions that, like, 01:20:20 --> 01:20:27 she says, I think later on in his career, 01:20:28 --> 01:20:30 he became a much wiser man. 01:20:32 --> 01:20:34 So, like, I think he was quite convivial 01:20:34 --> 01:20:38 and quite congenial in later years. 01:20:38 --> 01:20:38 But, yes. 01:20:38 --> 01:20:42 I think that also has to do with wanting to keep getting work, 01:20:42 --> 01:20:44 because I think there was a large chunk of time 01:20:44 --> 01:20:45 where he was just missing out, 01:20:45 --> 01:20:48 because he was just a pain in the arse to work with. 01:20:48 --> 01:20:48 Yes. 01:20:49 --> 01:20:50 I think, like, he did go through it. 01:20:50 --> 01:20:53 Much like the other actors you mentioned, 01:20:53 --> 01:20:55 Peter O'Toole, Oliver Reed, 01:20:55 --> 01:20:59 I think he went into a segment of his career 01:20:59 --> 01:21:03 where he suffered a massive downturn 01:21:03 --> 01:21:04 and a drying up of roles. 01:21:04 --> 01:21:14 And kind of, yes, because the alcoholism was getting in the way of him doing anything of any worth. 01:21:15 --> 01:21:23 So, like, yeah, I think, yes, I think once he kind of cleaned up a bit, 01:21:23 --> 01:21:28 and much like Peter O'Toole, obviously Oliver Reed continued to be Oliver Reed to the day died. 01:21:29 --> 01:21:29 Of course. 01:21:30 --> 01:21:41 But, yeah, similar to Peter O'Toole, who also kind of cleaned up and became a much more congenial, convivial kind of fella. 01:21:42 --> 01:21:45 Yes, I think that is true. 01:21:45 --> 01:21:50 So, I think, obviously, probably partly for his personal life, 01:21:50 --> 01:21:53 because I'm sure his personal life was equally turbulent to his professional life. 01:21:53 --> 01:21:54 Oh, yeah. 01:21:55 --> 01:22:02 But, yes, I do think it made a big difference once he kind of kicked the booze. 01:22:04 --> 01:22:10 Because, you know, I laugh, but obviously alcoholism is a terrible disease. 01:22:11 --> 01:22:19 And, you know, can cause all sorts of terrible problems for both the person who is suffering from that 01:22:19 --> 01:22:23 and the people around the person who is suffering from that. 01:22:25 --> 01:22:28 But that is possibly the case. 01:22:28 --> 01:22:30 To cut back to the film, that is possibly a case. 01:22:30 --> 01:22:40 I'm not sure if they cut down any Tyreen and Dundee scenes because of the toxic relationship between Heston and Harris. 01:22:41 --> 01:22:56 I think, like, I guess, like, yeah, like, in the extended cut, you do get more of a sense of some of the pecking path themes that you get about violence and male friendship. 01:22:56 --> 01:23:00 And kind of men who are kind of out of time. 01:23:01 --> 01:23:11 And, like, you know, like, because, like, that both Dundee and Tyreen, I think, feel more like kind of pecking path. 01:23:12 --> 01:23:25 It's slightly diluted pecking path characters, but more like kind of pecking path characters who are kind of like men out of time who are just like, who don't know what they are without a war going on kind of thing. 01:23:25 --> 01:23:28 Like, I think, or some sort of fight going on. 01:23:29 --> 01:23:37 So I do definitely, there is stronger, I feel like there's stronger pecking path-ness coming through in the extended cut. 01:23:37 --> 01:23:41 Well, I mean, I mean, the film is set during the Civil War. 01:23:41 --> 01:23:48 But I do get your point about them, both Dundee and Tyreen not having a sense of purpose. 01:23:48 --> 01:23:53 But I do kind of feel like, again, though, that's kind of dealt with very minimally. 01:23:53 --> 01:24:08 It really feels to me more like they're inhabiting the standard stock archetypes of the hero and his more kind of slightly dodgy, slightly more comic sidekick. 01:24:08 --> 01:24:24 It never really felt to me like, even with the performances of Hester and Harris, like the characters never really transcended being reduced to these standard Western archetypes, if that makes any sense. 01:24:24 --> 01:24:26 No, that makes perfect sense. 01:24:27 --> 01:24:27 That makes perfect sense. 01:24:27 --> 01:24:32 And maybe you can only, you only get a stronger sense of that in the extended cut. 01:24:32 --> 01:24:34 So like, so yeah. 01:24:34 --> 01:24:42 But it's been interesting, kind of comparing, contrasting the notes from both films. 01:24:43 --> 01:24:55 So it looks like things are going to be slightly different because this is going to skew the, so basically the way the podcast ends is I give three questions, which is definitely going to be different answers. 01:24:55 --> 01:24:57 Like it's definitely going to be right. 01:24:58 --> 01:24:59 So yes. 01:24:59 --> 01:25:03 So the three questions are question number one, how would you rate this? 01:25:03 --> 01:25:10 Not in terms of quality, but on the bloody Sam scale, the bloody Sam scale is based on how violent is this movie? 01:25:11 --> 01:25:15 Um, you know, one being, you know, not bloody at all. 01:25:16 --> 01:25:24 Um, uh, but you know, not very bloody Sam, uh, you know, to five being bloody at Sam. 01:25:24 --> 01:25:27 Um, so on the bloody Sam scale, where are you rating this? 01:25:27 --> 01:25:28 I would say a two. 01:25:29 --> 01:25:47 I mean, there is some graphic violence, like right at the end of the film, if the battle with the French, where you see some blood in the water, you do see some, a few kind of detailed, a few slightly detailed injuries here and there, but mostly it's kind of stock sixties Western violence. 01:25:47 --> 01:25:53 In fact, I would go so far as to say it's less than you would get to the Sergio Leone spaghetti Western at the time. 01:25:53 --> 01:25:54 Yeah. 01:25:54 --> 01:25:54 Yeah. 01:25:54 --> 01:26:02 Which, I mean, the violence you get then war, war more intense than you would get in a traditional American Western all the time, which is part of what made them slightly different. 01:26:03 --> 01:26:04 Um, yeah. 01:26:04 --> 01:26:05 So, right. 01:26:05 --> 01:26:05 Okay. 01:26:05 --> 01:26:25 So, um, yeah, it's because it's not the bulliest, but I think by 1965 standards is quite strong stuff for 1965 standards, but nowhere near what we get four years later on the wild bunch, nowhere near. 01:26:25 --> 01:26:26 so I'd give her the three 01:26:26 --> 01:26:29 and then 01:26:29 --> 01:26:31 the second question 01:26:31 --> 01:26:33 is 01:26:33 --> 01:26:36 the Nietzsche scale 01:26:36 --> 01:26:37 so the Nietzsche scale is how 01:26:37 --> 01:26:40 because Peckinpah is known for 01:26:40 --> 01:26:42 nihilism, how nihilistic 01:26:42 --> 01:26:43 is this film 01:26:43 --> 01:26:45 one being 01:26:45 --> 01:26:48 again, not nihilistic 01:26:48 --> 01:26:48 at all 01:26:48 --> 01:26:52 and five being bleak as 01:26:52 --> 01:26:52 all hell 01:26:52 --> 01:26:56 I would say 01:26:56 --> 01:26:58 1.5 01:26:58 --> 01:27:00 you do get some 01:27:00 --> 01:27:04 sense towards the end with Dundee's time 01:27:04 --> 01:27:04 in Mexico 01:27:04 --> 01:27:08 that he's maybe heading down that route 01:27:08 --> 01:27:10 and you do get some characters saying it 01:27:10 --> 01:27:12 out loud at various points 01:27:12 --> 01:27:14 throughout the film, it never really 01:27:14 --> 01:27:15 feels true at all 01:27:15 --> 01:27:17 it's very minimal 01:27:17 --> 01:27:19 it's, yeah 01:27:19 --> 01:27:22 I would say in fact 01:27:22 --> 01:27:24 there's an almost like 01:27:24 --> 01:27:26 an overdose of idealism in this film 01:27:26 --> 01:27:28 particularly in the veneration of 01:27:28 --> 01:27:28 Ryan 01:27:28 --> 01:27:30 I mean, I feel like 01:27:30 --> 01:27:31 the use of Ryan 01:27:31 --> 01:27:33 this idealistic character 01:27:33 --> 01:27:34 is just, yeah 01:27:34 --> 01:27:36 the young idealistic character 01:27:36 --> 01:27:37 just kind of 01:27:37 --> 01:27:37 yeah 01:27:37 --> 01:27:39 I know 01:27:39 --> 01:27:42 I know what you mean 01:27:42 --> 01:27:43 and I think even the 01:27:43 --> 01:27:44 extended cut 01:27:44 --> 01:27:45 the nihilism 01:27:45 --> 01:27:46 is not 01:27:46 --> 01:27:47 strong 01:27:47 --> 01:27:49 so I'd maybe 01:27:49 --> 01:27:50 give it 01:27:50 --> 01:27:51 maybe a three again 01:27:51 --> 01:27:53 maybe 01:27:53 --> 01:27:54 because I'm 01:27:54 --> 01:27:55 like 01:27:55 --> 01:27:56 not 01:27:56 --> 01:27:56 not 01:27:56 --> 01:27:56 maybe 01:27:56 --> 01:27:57 hmm 01:27:57 --> 01:27:59 because no 01:27:59 --> 01:28:00 there is still 01:28:00 --> 01:28:00 like that idealism 01:28:00 --> 01:28:02 so maybe not quite a three 01:28:02 --> 01:28:03 maybe like a two and a half 01:28:03 --> 01:28:04 or something 01:28:04 --> 01:28:05 but it's definitely 01:28:05 --> 01:28:05 yeah 01:28:05 --> 01:28:07 maybe like a two and a half 01:28:07 --> 01:28:08 like 01:28:08 --> 01:28:09 because I still don't think 01:28:09 --> 01:28:10 it's that nihilistic 01:28:10 --> 01:28:11 but like it's 01:28:11 --> 01:28:12 it definitely 01:28:12 --> 01:28:13 you get more 01:28:13 --> 01:28:14 like I said again 01:28:14 --> 01:28:15 you know 01:28:15 --> 01:28:16 I'm kind of repeating myself 01:28:16 --> 01:28:17 at this stage 01:28:17 --> 01:28:17 but like 01:28:17 --> 01:28:19 you definitely get a sense of 01:28:19 --> 01:28:19 more 01:28:19 --> 01:28:21 Dundee going off the rails 01:28:21 --> 01:28:22 you definitely get more of a sense 01:28:22 --> 01:28:23 of 01:28:23 --> 01:28:23 of 01:28:23 --> 01:28:25 like the mission being wrongheaded 01:28:25 --> 01:28:26 you definitely 01:28:26 --> 01:28:28 get more of a sense 01:28:28 --> 01:28:28 of like 01:28:28 --> 01:28:29 the 01:28:29 --> 01:28:31 the violence of this 01:28:31 --> 01:28:32 being like 01:28:32 --> 01:28:33 unnecessary 01:28:33 --> 01:28:34 because the mission 01:28:34 --> 01:28:35 like as I said 01:28:35 --> 01:28:35 you know 01:28:35 --> 01:28:36 mission is completed 01:28:36 --> 01:28:36 halfway through the film 01:28:36 --> 01:28:37 so there's definitely 01:28:37 --> 01:28:38 more of a sense 01:28:38 --> 01:28:39 of like 01:28:39 --> 01:28:39 you know 01:28:39 --> 01:28:41 wastes of lives 01:28:41 --> 01:28:41 and you know 01:28:41 --> 01:28:42 more of a kind of 01:28:42 --> 01:28:43 unnecessary 01:28:43 --> 01:28:44 so I'd still say 01:28:44 --> 01:28:45 maybe like a two and a half 01:28:45 --> 01:28:47 so I guess 01:28:47 --> 01:28:48 this might be different 01:28:48 --> 01:28:48 as well 01:28:48 --> 01:28:51 so the final question 01:28:51 --> 01:28:52 final quickfire question 01:28:52 --> 01:28:53 is 01:28:53 --> 01:28:54 and you just have to say 01:28:54 --> 01:28:55 one or the other 01:28:55 --> 01:28:58 is based on quality 01:28:58 --> 01:28:59 and because 01:28:59 --> 01:29:00 this is a pecking pa podcast 01:29:00 --> 01:29:01 we've got the 01:29:01 --> 01:29:03 our quality scale 01:29:03 --> 01:29:03 is 01:29:03 --> 01:29:04 we're basically doing 01:29:04 --> 01:29:05 a kind of 01:29:05 --> 01:29:06 Siskel and Ebert 01:29:06 --> 01:29:07 kind of thumbs up 01:29:07 --> 01:29:07 thumbs down 01:29:07 --> 01:29:08 but because it's pecking pa 01:29:08 --> 01:29:10 it's either you score this 01:29:10 --> 01:29:11 a pecking ya 01:29:11 --> 01:29:13 or a pecking nah 01:29:13 --> 01:29:16 what you got Adam 01:29:16 --> 01:29:17 I'm gonna say pecking nah 01:29:17 --> 01:29:19 I'm gonna say pecking nah 01:29:19 --> 01:29:20 okay 01:29:20 --> 01:29:22 okay 01:29:22 --> 01:29:22 okay 01:29:22 --> 01:29:23 that's 01:29:23 --> 01:29:23 that's 01:29:23 --> 01:29:24 that's perfectly 01:29:24 --> 01:29:25 that's perfectly fine 01:29:25 --> 01:29:26 um 01:29:26 --> 01:29:27 yeah 01:29:27 --> 01:29:28 it sounds like 01:29:28 --> 01:29:29 I'd probably give it 01:29:29 --> 01:29:29 the same 01:29:29 --> 01:29:30 if I had seen 01:29:30 --> 01:29:31 the theatrical cut 01:29:31 --> 01:29:31 based on what I've read 01:29:31 --> 01:29:32 about the theatrical cut 01:29:32 --> 01:29:33 um 01:29:33 --> 01:29:35 but I am giving this 01:29:35 --> 01:29:35 uh 01:29:35 --> 01:29:37 I'm kind of 01:29:37 --> 01:29:37 I was kind of 01:29:37 --> 01:29:38 between giving it 01:29:38 --> 01:29:39 a three and a three and a half 01:29:39 --> 01:29:40 when I was letting 01:29:40 --> 01:29:41 rain on a letterbox 01:29:41 --> 01:29:42 so I'm giving it 01:29:42 --> 01:29:43 a pecking ya 01:29:43 --> 01:29:44 I think there's enough 01:29:44 --> 01:29:44 good stuff here 01:29:44 --> 01:29:46 based on the extended cut 01:29:46 --> 01:29:47 and I would recommend 01:29:47 --> 01:29:49 people watch the extended cut 01:29:49 --> 01:29:50 um 01:29:50 --> 01:29:51 that I'll give this 01:29:51 --> 01:29:52 a pecking ya 01:29:52 --> 01:29:53 um 01:29:53 --> 01:29:55 so the very last thing 01:29:55 --> 01:29:56 is now we've completed 01:29:56 --> 01:29:57 this episode 01:29:57 --> 01:29:58 on Major Dundee 01:29:58 --> 01:29:58 thank you very much 01:29:58 --> 01:29:59 for listening 01:29:59 --> 01:30:00 um 01:30:00 --> 01:30:01 I hope you've enjoyed it 01:30:01 --> 01:30:03 I hope you've found out 01:30:03 --> 01:30:04 more about the extended cut 01:30:04 --> 01:30:05 and the theatrical cut 01:30:05 --> 01:30:05 and the difference 01:30:05 --> 01:30:07 between the two 01:30:07 --> 01:30:08 um 01:30:08 --> 01:30:09 yeah 01:30:09 --> 01:30:10 just um 01:30:10 --> 01:30:11 just quickly 01:30:11 --> 01:30:11 give a promo 01:30:11 --> 01:30:13 for your podcast 01:30:13 --> 01:30:14 and uh 01:30:14 --> 01:30:14 yeah 01:30:14 --> 01:30:15 uh 01:30:15 --> 01:30:16 tell us where you're at 01:30:16 --> 01:30:16 okay 01:30:16 --> 01:30:18 so I host a podcast 01:30:18 --> 01:30:20 called Films That Time Forgot 01:30:20 --> 01:30:21 that looks at 01:30:21 --> 01:30:22 um 01:30:22 --> 01:30:24 overlooked Hollywood films 01:30:24 --> 01:30:25 from the 80s 01:30:25 --> 01:30:27 through to the early 2010s 01:30:27 --> 01:30:28 and that's available 01:30:28 --> 01:30:30 on all platforms 01:30:30 --> 01:30:31 uh 01:30:31 --> 01:30:32 SoundCloud 01:30:32 --> 01:30:33 Spotify 01:30:33 --> 01:30:34 Apple Podcasts 01:30:34 --> 01:30:35 you name it 01:30:35 --> 01:30:36 or if you want 01:30:36 --> 01:30:37 early access to it 01:30:37 --> 01:30:38 you can subscribe 01:30:38 --> 01:30:39 to my Patreon 01:30:39 --> 01:30:40 um 01:30:40 --> 01:30:40 that's 01:30:40 --> 01:30:41 Thorny Film Reviews 01:30:41 --> 01:30:43 T-H-O-R-N-Y 01:30:43 --> 01:30:44 Film Reviews 01:30:44 --> 01:30:45 I also write 01:30:45 --> 01:30:47 I also write reviews 01:30:47 --> 01:30:48 for the We Review 01:30:48 --> 01:30:49 that's 01:30:49 --> 01:30:50 W-E-E 01:30:50 --> 01:30:51 Review 01:30:51 --> 01:30:52 um 01:30:52 --> 01:30:52 they 01:30:52 --> 01:30:53 they are film reviews 01:30:53 --> 01:30:54 um 01:30:54 --> 01:30:55 but I also do theatrical reviews 01:30:55 --> 01:30:56 as well 01:30:56 --> 01:30:56 um 01:30:56 --> 01:30:57 during the summer 01:30:57 --> 01:30:59 and uh 01:30:59 --> 01:30:59 yeah 01:30:59 --> 01:31:00 that's 01:31:00 --> 01:31:00 that's it 01:31:00 --> 01:31:01 and I believe you're guesting 01:31:01 --> 01:31:02 on my next episode 01:31:02 --> 01:31:05 that is correct 01:31:05 --> 01:31:06 I am 01:31:06 --> 01:31:07 um 01:31:07 --> 01:31:08 I am 01:31:08 --> 01:31:09 I'm 01:31:09 --> 01:31:09 I'm 01:31:09 --> 01:31:10 I'm gonna come on your podcast 01:31:10 --> 01:31:11 I think 01:31:11 --> 01:31:12 uh 01:31:12 --> 01:31:13 because this 01:31:13 --> 01:31:14 will go out 01:31:14 --> 01:31:15 in March 01:31:15 --> 01:31:16 maybe 01:31:16 --> 01:31:17 I might have even 01:31:17 --> 01:31:19 been on your podcast 01:31:19 --> 01:31:20 yeah 01:31:20 --> 01:31:21 I think you probably would have 01:31:21 --> 01:31:22 yeah 01:31:22 --> 01:31:22 yeah 01:31:22 --> 01:31:23 so 01:31:23 --> 01:31:24 this is gonna massively date 01:31:24 --> 01:31:25 this is 01:31:25 --> 01:31:26 this is 01:31:26 --> 01:31:26 this is gonna 01:31:26 --> 01:31:28 this is how podcasting works 01:31:28 --> 01:31:28 um 01:31:28 --> 01:31:29 so 01:31:29 --> 01:31:29 so 01:31:29 --> 01:31:30 so 01:31:30 --> 01:31:31 so yes 01:31:31 --> 01:31:33 so this is a reverse promotion 01:31:33 --> 01:31:33 um 01:31:33 --> 01:31:34 for for that episode 01:31:34 --> 01:31:36 which is not recorded 01:31:36 --> 01:31:36 but is 01:31:36 --> 01:31:37 is out now 01:31:37 --> 01:31:38 um 01:31:38 --> 01:31:42 so uh 01:31:42 --> 01:31:43 yeah 01:31:43 --> 01:31:44 yeah 01:31:44 --> 01:31:44 so you can 01:31:44 --> 01:31:45 you can listen to us there 01:31:45 --> 01:31:47 and because it's 01:31:47 --> 01:31:47 um 01:31:47 --> 01:31:48 not recorded 01:31:48 --> 01:31:49 but is out now 01:31:49 --> 01:31:50 um 01:31:50 --> 01:31:51 I guess we can 01:31:51 --> 01:31:51 say what it is 01:31:51 --> 01:31:52 as well 01:31:52 --> 01:31:53 um 01:31:53 --> 01:31:53 yeah 01:31:53 --> 01:31:54 it's the 01:31:54 --> 01:31:54 um 01:31:54 --> 01:31:55 1999 01:31:55 --> 01:31:56 Kevin Bacon 01:31:56 --> 01:31:58 Supernatural Thriller 01:31:58 --> 01:31:59 Stare of Echoes 01:31:59 --> 01:32:00 exactly 01:32:00 --> 01:32:01 um 01:32:01 --> 01:32:02 which you can listen to 01:32:02 --> 01:32:02 now 01:32:02 --> 01:32:03 again 01:32:03 --> 01:32:03 even though 01:32:03 --> 01:32:05 it's not recorded yet 01:32:05 --> 01:32:07 so 01:32:07 --> 01:32:08 so 01:32:08 --> 01:32:08 so yeah 01:32:08 --> 01:32:09 that's 01:32:09 --> 01:32:10 that's a lot of fun 01:32:10 --> 01:32:11 um 01:32:11 --> 01:32:12 so yes 01:32:12 --> 01:32:13 I look forward to 01:32:13 --> 01:32:14 recording that with you 01:32:14 --> 01:32:15 and 01:32:15 --> 01:32:16 um 01:32:16 --> 01:32:16 yes 01:32:16 --> 01:32:17 I 01:32:17 --> 01:32:19 hope that you go and check out that episode 01:32:19 --> 01:32:23 and I hope you very much enjoyed 01:32:23 --> 01:32:24 this episode listeners 01:32:24 --> 01:32:25 um 01:32:25 --> 01:32:26 uh 01:32:26 --> 01:32:27 but uh 01:32:27 --> 01:32:28 do tune in again 01:32:28 --> 01:32:30 next month 01:32:30 --> 01:32:31 um 01:32:31 --> 01:32:32 when we will return 01:32:32 --> 01:32:33 um 01:32:33 --> 01:32:34 with another episode 01:32:34 --> 01:32:35 of 01:32:35 --> 01:32:36 Bloody Sam 01:32:36 --> 01:32:37 a Peckinpah fan podcast 01:32:37 --> 01:32:39 and yes 01:32:39 --> 01:32:40 um 01:32:40 --> 01:32:41 in the next episode 01:32:41 --> 01:32:43 it is one of the big ones 01:32:43 --> 01:32:43 um 01:32:43 --> 01:32:44 because 01:32:44 --> 01:32:46 after four years 01:32:46 --> 01:32:47 in director jail 01:32:47 --> 01:32:48 well 01:32:48 --> 01:32:50 Hollywood director jail 01:32:50 --> 01:32:50 because 01:32:50 --> 01:32:52 he does direct a TV movie 01:32:52 --> 01:32:52 in between 01:32:52 --> 01:32:54 as we mentioned earlier on 01:32:54 --> 01:32:54 in the episode 01:32:54 --> 01:32:55 um 01:32:55 --> 01:32:56 he comes back 01:32:56 --> 01:32:59 with one of his masterpieces 01:32:59 --> 01:33:01 The Wild Bunch 01:33:01 --> 01:33:01 uh 01:33:01 --> 01:33:02 so 01:33:02 --> 01:33:02 uh 01:33:02 --> 01:33:03 you can 01:33:03 --> 01:33:04 you can look forward 01:33:04 --> 01:33:05 you can look forward to that 01:33:05 --> 01:33:06 and hopefully 01:33:06 --> 01:33:07 uh 01:33:07 --> 01:33:08 we can 01:33:08 --> 01:33:08 uh 01:33:08 --> 01:33:10 think about things to say 01:33:10 --> 01:33:11 in that episode 01:33:11 --> 01:33:13 that have not been said about the Wild Bunch 01:33:13 --> 01:33:15 or maybe we'll just repeat 01:33:15 --> 01:33:15 the 01:33:15 --> 01:33:18 things that everybody else says 01:33:18 --> 01:33:19 um 01:33:19 --> 01:33:19 who knows 01:33:19 --> 01:33:20 but um 01:33:20 --> 01:33:20 yeah 01:33:20 --> 01:33:21 tune in next month 01:33:21 --> 01:33:22 uh 01:33:22 --> 01:33:22 for that one 01:33:22 --> 01:33:24 until then though 01:33:24 --> 01:33:25 see ya 01:33:25 --> 01:33:26 Thank you.