Latest / The Occult Rejects / Sarah Janes Sacrifice Roundtable with Ike Baker, Collin, Peter Mark Adams, Brandon & More

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Sarah Janes Sacrifice Roundtable with Ike Baker, Collin, Peter Mark Adams, Brandon & More · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I see something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: I don't go up.
• 0:24
  Speaker 4: We've got loads of participants on this one. Thank you
• 0:26
  Speaker 4: so much to everyone for coming along today. We have
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: just gone online, so we haven't had much of a
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: chance to do any kind of pre amble or talk
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: about what we're going to talk about. So I'm just
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: going to let this flow quite freely and see what happens.
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: What we did for the last session was that anyone
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: who wanted to add something to the conversation put their
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: little yellow hand up and we kind of moved the
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: conversation along like that.
• 0:53
  Speaker 5: So I think we'll do that.
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: But what I wanted to do to start off with
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: is talk about why I wanted to do the topic
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: of sacrifice. And what I would like to do is
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: post these sessions where they're like open forums to discuss
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: a topic, and you've got lots of great heads altogether
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: that you can ask questions too directly as well. So
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: last week I think we did the Eggragor, which was
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: really interesting, and each session will lead on from the
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: last one as well. So in Agragor, we talked about
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: the nature of these kind of thought form entities that
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: start to control individuals or populations, or direct movements or
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: kind of emanations of cult thinking perhaps I might say,
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: or cults or any kind of cultural phenomenon. And this
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: week I thought, drawing from a lot of the stuff
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: that came up in the Agrogol session, we'll talk about
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: sacrifice because very often the rigora, as we discussed, demands sacrifice.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: It requires feeding, it requires energy, it requires our attention.
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: And one thing I'm thinking about a lot with the
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: sort of current headlines and the current news and things
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: that are going on in the world, is it seems
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: as though there's going to be some sort of sacrifice
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: and what is it that's going to be sacrificed. So
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: in this session, I wanted to talk about the nature
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: of sacrifice in magical practice, in spiritual practice, and also
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: the nature of sacrifice as a kind of scapegoat and proxy,
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: which is something that has been part of magical practice
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: and rituals for.
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: A very long time as well.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: So we could do a quick kind of moving through
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: the group, and if anyone wants to put their hand
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: up to introduce themselves and talk about that perspective on sacrifice,
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: we could start with that perhaps. So we have a
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: very very diverse group of people in this zoom call,
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: so I think we should have a pretty interesting conversation.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: So I know Peter pretty well now. Peter is one
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: of my pals in Istanbul, so I know Peter has
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: very strong and interesting ideas around sacrifice and especially how
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: that relates to mithraic practice. So, Peter, are you up
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: for starting the ball rolling?
• 3:24
  Speaker 6: Not really, I was hiding in the bag, but I
• 3:29
  Speaker 6: wanted to say one thing. I don't resonate with the
• 3:33
  Speaker 6: idea of sacrifice very much. I see it as like
• 3:38
  Speaker 6: the other side of a coin, and for me, the
• 3:42
  Speaker 6: other side of the coin is primary, which is the
• 3:45
  Speaker 6: notion of service. Okay, So this is just one way
• 3:50
  Speaker 6: of framing it. I don't want to insist on it,
• 3:53
  Speaker 6: but I tend to emphasize the notions of service as
• 3:58
  Speaker 6: a mode of alignment with an esoteric current, okay, And
• 4:03
  Speaker 6: personally I see that as a larger teleological evolution. And
• 4:08
  Speaker 6: of course there's countervailing forces at work, which we're seeing
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: these days in a very pronounced form, and that's a
• 4:19
  Speaker 6: very different style of agrigor, as you were pointing out.
• 4:26
  Speaker 6: So it's not the direction in which I personally wish
• 4:30
  Speaker 6: to focus, but I have to recognize that it's a
• 4:36
  Speaker 6: kind of overwhelmingly negative force on the countervailing force. Let's
• 4:41
  Speaker 6: say it's counter initiatory, and it has its own sacrificial forms.
• 4:50
  Speaker 6: So from my perspective, we're dealing with this duality. And
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: I'm not trying to suggest a kind of larger good
• 5:02
  Speaker 6: versus evil duality, but one is definitely evolutionary and one
• 5:07
  Speaker 6: seems to be counter evolutionary, let's put it that way.
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: So that's what happens to open discussion.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: And I know that you write about the nature of
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: what is often called the sacrifice of the bull in
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: the Mathraic system. Could you maybe talk about your perspective
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: of what was actually happening there.
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  Speaker 6: Well, it's such a multi level, multi valent symbol. I
• 5:38
  Speaker 6: guess at the base level, we're talking about this turning
• 5:43
  Speaker 6: away from the obsession with the self towards an obsession
• 5:47
  Speaker 6: with the larger evolutionary currents in which we're all immersed.
• 5:54
  Speaker 6: So that the ball isn't actually sacrificed. In the mithraicteroptomy,
• 5:59
  Speaker 6: it's stabbed in the shoulder, that's to say, it's weakened
• 6:02
  Speaker 6: in the classical way in which a bullfight proceeds through
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: a weakening of the bull, and therefore it can just
• 6:11
  Speaker 6: as easily be read as a weakening of primordial instincts
• 6:18
  Speaker 6: to allow higher forms of consciousness to emerge and to
• 6:22
  Speaker 6: take an ascendant role in your life. And again that
• 6:27
  Speaker 6: is very much tied to this notion of service, where
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: the lower aspects of the self are sacrificed to an extent,
• 6:35
  Speaker 6: although willingly, willingly given up because you're pursuing a much
• 6:41
  Speaker 6: much deeper and larger current.
• 6:44
  Speaker 5: Okay, great, thank you very much, Peter.
• 6:47
  Speaker 7: Iike righty, Hello, everybody. Good to be here again. I
• 6:54
  Speaker 7: especially love what Peter is talking about here. I think
• 6:57
  Speaker 7: it was out of everybody that I know here, which
• 6:59
  Speaker 7: I don't know everybody, but I know many of the
• 7:02
  Speaker 7: people here. I think Peter is who I would have
• 7:04
  Speaker 7: chosen to lead the combo as well, because when when
• 7:08
  Speaker 7: we've spoken many times, service has come up, and I
• 7:15
  Speaker 7: take that attack as well. Coming from the hermetic order
• 7:18
  Speaker 7: of the Golden Dawn. You know, a lot of people
• 7:22
  Speaker 7: aren't fully aware because they don't get they don't get
• 7:26
  Speaker 7: into the depths the profundity of the inner order. But
• 7:31
  Speaker 7: it's it's based on service and self sacrifice, and really
• 7:36
  Speaker 7: not in this kind of smug, self important way, but
• 7:44
  Speaker 7: in in various ways that are focused through ritual and
• 7:50
  Speaker 7: the way that I've and and of course right in
• 7:53
  Speaker 7: your life you're wicked day living. But the way that
• 7:56
  Speaker 7: I've come to understand it is that, well, if we're
• 7:59
  Speaker 7: going to talk about sacrifice, I guess this is kind
• 8:01
  Speaker 7: of my niche here is kind of parsing words neurotically
• 8:07
  Speaker 7: like I do, like you know, alphabetizing my bookshelves and
• 8:10
  Speaker 7: things of this nature. But we should talk about different
• 8:14
  Speaker 7: the different kinds of sacrifice. We should clarify terms there
• 8:18
  Speaker 7: to kind of get to the heart of what's at stake.
• 8:24
  Speaker 7: For me, it's it's sacrificed. Very much is based on
• 8:28
  Speaker 7: a duality, as Peter said, particularly the duality of free
• 8:32
  Speaker 7: will and determinism. We sacrifice things all of the time.
• 8:37
  Speaker 7: I sacrifice time for money, money for leisure. Is that
• 8:41
  Speaker 7: all saying you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
• 8:45
  Speaker 7: And even though this might not be sacrificed in its
• 8:47
  Speaker 7: most grandiose aspects, it certainly applies when we're thinking about eggrigors.
• 8:54
  Speaker 7: For me, it comes down to choosing what and how
• 8:57
  Speaker 7: you sacrifice. And there are various types of sacrifice, right,
• 9:02
  Speaker 7: we have material sacrifices that the ancient Hellenistic and Greco
• 9:08
  Speaker 7: Roman theorists, even even in cultic basic cultic practices, they
• 9:14
  Speaker 7: would sacrifice stones, they would sacrifice food, they would sacrifice
• 9:18
  Speaker 7: all sorts of things. They would sacrifice animals. Even then,
• 9:24
  Speaker 7: when you look at somebody like again to bring them
• 9:27
  Speaker 7: up the Amblicus or let's say Proclus, some of the
• 9:29
  Speaker 7: later Neo Platonic or late Platonic philosophers that were theurgically oriented,
• 9:37
  Speaker 7: they were not necessarily concerned with placating anything they were
• 9:41
  Speaker 7: concerned with. As the Amblicus Proclus essentially distilled it, sacrifice
• 9:46
  Speaker 7: not for the gods, sacrifices for us. It's for us
• 9:50
  Speaker 7: in order that we become accustomed to seeing the divine
• 9:56
  Speaker 7: in everything around us. So you know, you can sacrifice
• 10:01
  Speaker 7: also your as I kind of mentioned, you can sacrifice
• 10:04
  Speaker 7: your consciousness. In ancient theurgic or hermetic terms, this would
• 10:08
  Speaker 7: have been a sort of noedic contemplation, offering that up
• 10:12
  Speaker 7: to a higher forces, deities, spiritual entities, but also in
• 10:18
  Speaker 7: things like just your time and attention. We don't realize it.
• 10:22
  Speaker 7: You know, everything out here is clamoring for your time
• 10:26
  Speaker 7: and attention, and some of it is worthy and some
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  Speaker 7: of it is absolutely not.
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  Speaker 8: But I guess to.
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  Speaker 7: In creating this stratification of sacrifices, I open it up
• 10:40
  Speaker 7: to the rest of the panel to discuss, you know what,
• 10:45
  Speaker 7: what in particular, what aspects of sacrifice they focus on,
• 10:48
  Speaker 7: or they're more concerned with, or how do they relate
• 10:51
  Speaker 7: to each other. But I will definitely say, just to
• 10:53
  Speaker 7: bring it full full circle, that that that keystone of
• 11:00
  Speaker 7: free will and and and conscious selection of what you're
• 11:06
  Speaker 7: going to sacrifice is tied deeply into what Peter said,
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  Speaker 7: sacrifice willingly given, willingly given, And it can happen on
• 11:14
  Speaker 7: a very very mundane level, it can happen on a
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  Speaker 7: very very rarefied and spiritual level.
• 11:20
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Ike, Siri.
• 11:24
  Speaker 9: Yeah, hi everyone. So coming at this from a more
• 11:30
  Speaker 9: kind of conceptual level, but also from from a perspective
• 11:33
  Speaker 9: of historical developments. I really like what both Peter and
• 11:40
  Speaker 9: Ike said, and I agree with that there is a
• 11:42
  Speaker 9: duality to sacrifice. Catherine Bell History of Religion. She wrote
• 11:47
  Speaker 9: a book on rituals, and she talks about sacrifice as
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  Speaker 9: an idea where it's not the same as as giving
• 11:53
  Speaker 9: up and offering in the sacrifice. Usually the thing sacrificed
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  Speaker 9: is somehow destroid So Peter touches on this right. So
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  Speaker 9: the question is is it your lower self that's being
• 12:04
  Speaker 9: sacrificed for higher purpose or you know? And is it
• 12:08
  Speaker 9: a willing sacrifice or not? And if looking at this
• 12:12
  Speaker 9: from like a historical developing perspective, like developmental perspective, I
• 12:16
  Speaker 9: really like Boudrea's four faces of the image that he
• 12:21
  Speaker 9: writes about in his book on Similar Simulation. I think
• 12:26
  Speaker 9: that's very important to think about. So in a culture,
• 12:28
  Speaker 9: for example, where kind of in the ancient mystery cults,
• 12:35
  Speaker 9: the reflection of image is a reflection of profound reality.
• 12:39
  Speaker 9: It's a pure presence, right, It's actually there the thing.
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  Speaker 9: It's not a symbol of something, It is the thing
• 12:46
  Speaker 9: it symbolizes. It has a presence to it. And I
• 12:49
  Speaker 9: think sacrifice ritually enacted in that kind of environment and
• 12:53
  Speaker 9: that kind of framework of thinking is quite different from
• 12:55
  Speaker 9: what you see in the later developments. So the second
• 12:58
  Speaker 9: kind of definition that he has for it is that
• 13:01
  Speaker 9: it kind of masks something, right, So the masking of
• 13:07
  Speaker 9: mysterious reality or mysterious presence kind of increases as we
• 13:12
  Speaker 9: go through the levels of history. Currently, we are very
• 13:16
  Speaker 9: much in a in a situation where everything in society
• 13:21
  Speaker 9: is mimicry. That you know, It's not that we don't
• 13:26
  Speaker 9: live in this perception. I mean some of the people
• 13:28
  Speaker 9: here probably do, because you do ritual and you're esotericist, right,
• 13:31
  Speaker 9: But in kind of secular society, we are operating in
• 13:36
  Speaker 9: this kind of perspective of simulacra, right, or similar simulacrum,
• 13:42
  Speaker 9: which means that the sacrifice is no longer happened in
• 13:44
  Speaker 9: these kinds of ritual or elevated contexts, but they happen
• 13:49
  Speaker 9: through let's say, unwilling sacrifice of human beings to corporations
• 13:55
  Speaker 9: for example, that sort of thing. So yeah, I think
• 14:00
  Speaker 9: it's I think it's important to kind of distinguish that.
• 14:02
  Speaker 9: So the way that the ancients might have understood this
• 14:06
  Speaker 9: is really not quite what's happening in our own culture
• 14:09
  Speaker 9: to a large extent, Right. I also want to point to,
• 14:13
  Speaker 9: like there's a as an interesting book by Volney called
• 14:16
  Speaker 9: The Ruins of Empires, which came out in seventeen ninety two, right,
• 14:19
  Speaker 9: just like right around the time of the French Revolution,
• 14:23
  Speaker 9: and he talks about this is kind of touching on
• 14:26
  Speaker 9: Peter's earlier point of how this operates. Right, that and
• 14:29
  Speaker 9: the ancient mystery mystery is then right are turned into
• 14:33
  Speaker 9: moral systems and transformed, and you end up with a
• 14:37
  Speaker 9: with a kind of notion of sacrificial rights that are
• 14:42
  Speaker 9: warped and kind of you know, turned into their exact opposite.
• 14:46
  Speaker 9: It's not a soulth sacrifice of service anymore. It's an
• 14:49
  Speaker 9: enforced sacrifice of giving up your time and yourself to
• 14:55
  Speaker 9: working for somebody who doesn't care about you or you know,
• 14:59
  Speaker 9: who does give you any yeah, a proper return for
• 15:04
  Speaker 9: your services, you know. So I think it's I think
• 15:08
  Speaker 9: it's interesting to look at that development.
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: Thank you, sirih Yeah.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of sacrifices have become a bit
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: like a lot of religions have become more kind of
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: symbolic and lost the essential nature because we're just paying
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: lip service to the idea of sacrifice rather than engaging
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: in that act of service for something.
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: Miles, May I come to you now and ask you
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: because I know.
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: Miles, you go on a lot of pilgrimages and you
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: have a quite different tradition in relationship to Tibetan Buddhism
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: and things like this. So how does sacrifice fit in
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: to your idea of pilgrimage, like as do you consider
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: it to be an active service or is it a
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: sacrifice of time and energy, because obviously making a pilgrimage
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: is a beautiful thing as well.
• 16:04
  Speaker 10: Thanks Sarah, and so nice to be with you all.
• 16:07
  Speaker 10: So interesting for me to hear all the perspectives. I
• 16:09
  Speaker 10: love how you've already laid it out so beautifully with
• 16:11
  Speaker 10: the different levels. Just my mind works so in a
• 16:18
  Speaker 10: weird way. I was thinking about a story. I don't
• 16:20
  Speaker 10: know if it'll fit here, but I travel on pilgrimage.
• 16:24
  Speaker 10: I basically curate pilgrimages for a Tibetan master, Kisha Tensen Sopa.
• 16:29
  Speaker 10: We were in Japan two years ago. You know, from
• 16:32
  Speaker 10: a Buddhist perspective, the pilgrimage is an act of doing
• 16:35
  Speaker 10: two things. Basically, one is called purification and the other
• 16:38
  Speaker 10: is accumulation of merit. I'm sure in the Western tradition
• 16:43
  Speaker 10: there's some sort of equivalent to it, but essentially there's
• 16:46
  Speaker 10: some shedding that needs to happen, which is done on
• 16:48
  Speaker 10: a voluntary basis, like one takes a pilgrim's mindset to
• 16:54
  Speaker 10: volunteer to let go of something. On the most rudimentary level,
• 16:58
  Speaker 10: of course, it's time and money and time away from family.
• 17:02
  Speaker 10: But then really the purification has to do with karma,
• 17:05
  Speaker 10: the accumulation of all kinds of negative tendencies and imprints
• 17:08
  Speaker 10: on the mindstream. And so the idea of going on
• 17:11
  Speaker 10: a sacred journey is not just necessarily to make it
• 17:14
  Speaker 10: to the final destination, but along the way, how one
• 17:18
  Speaker 10: engages in just the arisings of consequences and impasses and
• 17:24
  Speaker 10: flight delays. And I mean, imagine if you are right
• 17:27
  Speaker 10: now in Dubai or somewhere, and you know, the difference
• 17:30
  Speaker 10: between a tour is stranded in Dubai and a pilgrim
• 17:33
  Speaker 10: stranded in Dubai is quite different. That condition or circumstance
• 17:38
  Speaker 10: for the well trained would be a ripe initiatory opportunity
• 17:44
  Speaker 10: for shedding of selfishness or greed or pride or jealousy
• 17:49
  Speaker 10: or whatever the rub might be. And of course while
• 17:53
  Speaker 10: things are being shed, then there's also the opportunities along
• 17:57
  Speaker 10: the way, not just at the destination of the power places,
• 17:59
  Speaker 10: but along the way with other pilgrims without their like
• 18:02
  Speaker 10: minded people to to cultivate virtues. So if anyone's traveled
• 18:07
  Speaker 10: on the Camino, for example, I mean the good cheer
• 18:09
  Speaker 10: that is spread liberally across the road, you know, is really,
• 18:14
  Speaker 10: you know, archetypally exactly where our civilization should be heading.
• 18:17
  Speaker 10: You know, people of different orientations, people of different temperaments,
• 18:24
  Speaker 10: people of their own unique predilections, still share something in common,
• 18:27
  Speaker 10: which is gratitude and humility and respect. And so there's
• 18:32
  Speaker 10: there's that kind of lubrication along the road. To go
• 18:36
  Speaker 10: back to Gesha Tens and Zopa, there was a moment
• 18:38
  Speaker 10: we were in Koyasan, which is the tantric enclave of Japan,
• 18:43
  Speaker 10: and we had several nuns with us in addition to
• 18:46
  Speaker 10: just a coord of mostly Western pilgrims. And then one
• 18:50
  Speaker 10: of our nuns, you know, had a knee issue, and
• 18:54
  Speaker 10: so we had asked for a chair in this Shikubo
• 18:56
  Speaker 10: a guesthouse, temple guesthouse. Gesha Tens and Zoe but was
• 19:00
  Speaker 10: with us. I was the cure organizer, So I was,
• 19:03
  Speaker 10: you know, busying myself trying to you know, find solutions
• 19:06
  Speaker 10: for people. The whole time, it's just you know, like,
• 19:12
  Speaker 10: so somebody she needed a chair, and it seemed like
• 19:15
  Speaker 10: such a modest request. You know, she couldn't sit on
• 19:17
  Speaker 10: the floor to eat her meal. So I was looking
• 19:19
  Speaker 10: for a chair. We asked for a chair, and there
• 19:20
  Speaker 10: was probably one of the managers was quite blunt and
• 19:24
  Speaker 10: said no, you know, which caught everybody off guard. And
• 19:32
  Speaker 10: so right there in that moment, what arises in your
• 19:34
  Speaker 10: mindstream is is the kind of thing, you know, if
• 19:37
  Speaker 10: it's a negative, if it's a negative reaction, then it's
• 19:40
  Speaker 10: the kind of thing that alerts to your consciousness. This
• 19:42
  Speaker 10: is something to be purified. It could be you know, concern,
• 19:47
  Speaker 10: it could be anger, could be outraged, it could be
• 19:49
  Speaker 10: indignation or whatever it is, or just you know, you know,
• 19:54
  Speaker 10: some sort of resentment or whatever. Not understanding the culture
• 19:57
  Speaker 10: and not understanding you know. Anyway, the nun and I
• 20:01
  Speaker 10: are looked at each other, you know, we were like,
• 20:07
  Speaker 10: what's going on here? But Gesha, Tens and Zopa turned
• 20:11
  Speaker 10: it into a wonderful teaching moment. You know, he's you know,
• 20:13
  Speaker 10: in the middle of it. He basically stopped everybody and said, listen,
• 20:16
  Speaker 10: you know, he's right. There's something so valuable from the No,
• 20:24
  Speaker 10: when we need something for us to look at, we
• 20:27
  Speaker 10: need we need to hear that, we need to hear
• 20:30
  Speaker 10: more knows, especially in our culture, which is instant, instant
• 20:33
  Speaker 10: gratification and entitlement and all of this. So it's where
• 20:37
  Speaker 10: the rub the rub the rubber meets the road. That's
• 20:40
  Speaker 10: where Gesha tens and Zoba was saying, no, No, that's
• 20:42
  Speaker 10: where you're This is our teacher. He was basically saying,
• 20:44
  Speaker 10: this is a tradition in Tibet called lo jung the
• 20:47
  Speaker 10: mind transformation. It's taking the adversity and turning it on
• 20:51
  Speaker 10: its own head and showing you, you know, in the
• 20:54
  Speaker 10: mirror where the work can be, where the work can
• 20:57
  Speaker 10: be applied. But then he did this other remarkable thing.
• 21:01
  Speaker 10: And I don't hope I'm not taking too much time
• 21:03
  Speaker 10: in boring you, but it'll always stay with me. He said,
• 21:12
  Speaker 10: who's moving? Actually, he said, you know, don't Don't you
• 21:17
  Speaker 10: think I want to be comfortable too? Don't you think
• 21:22
  Speaker 10: I want to be stress free and have a fun life.
• 21:27
  Speaker 10: Don't you think I want to live in a comfortable
• 21:29
  Speaker 10: high bed? He and I never I've been with him
• 21:33
  Speaker 10: twenty years. He never said this either, said, don't you
• 21:34
  Speaker 10: think I want a family and kids, so I want
• 21:38
  Speaker 10: all of that, but none of that is conducive to
• 21:42
  Speaker 10: my higher aspiration. And this is what is regarded in
• 21:48
  Speaker 10: our tradition as the great Bodhisatfa resolved the altruists, the
• 21:51
  Speaker 10: awakened altruists who seeks to benefit others using their embodiment
• 21:57
  Speaker 10: and whatever challenges arise. And so what he is at
• 22:00
  Speaker 10: the very end was I'm up to my neck in responsibility.
• 22:04
  Speaker 10: He grabbed his story like that, he said, but I'm
• 22:07
  Speaker 10: only looking for more. I'm only looking for more. I
• 22:14
  Speaker 10: don't know where that lands for people, or even in
• 22:17
  Speaker 10: the right track here, but you know, when you asked
• 22:19
  Speaker 10: me to come on, I thought the first thought I
• 22:21
  Speaker 10: thought of about sacrifice with some image of like a
• 22:25
  Speaker 10: goat on an altar in Greece or something. I don't
• 22:27
  Speaker 10: know why that, but here it is. Here's the image
• 22:30
  Speaker 10: that you know. Maybe you can speak to it, any
• 22:33
  Speaker 10: of you. What the hell am I talking about? How
• 22:37
  Speaker 10: do I make this departure? What relevance does this story have?
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: That's great, very relevant?
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: I think anyone else want to come in after myles
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: lovely story?
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Miles, I'd.
• 22:57
  Speaker 11: Be happy to jump in Sarah, Yeah, I'm kind of
• 23:01
  Speaker 11: approaching this from a place of curiosity and mystery, as
• 23:07
  Speaker 11: since sacrifice and offerings is this universal that shows up
• 23:11
  Speaker 11: across cultures, why does it show up in so many
• 23:16
  Speaker 11: different places? You know, what is the origins the origins
• 23:21
  Speaker 11: of the sacrificial impulse, So that that's curious for me
• 23:25
  Speaker 11: as well, and maybe someone else could touch on that.
• 23:28
  Speaker 11: But there are a number of counterpoints and examples in
• 23:32
  Speaker 11: history that the kind of imply the need for the
• 23:36
  Speaker 11: self sacrifice and kind of the virtuous behavior at the
• 23:40
  Speaker 11: earliest stage. One early example of this is the book
• 23:44
  Speaker 11: Book of Isaiah, right where God is condemning the Israelites
• 23:48
  Speaker 11: for having so much blood on their hands, but for
• 23:51
  Speaker 11: not having a corresponding virtue expressed in their behavior. And
• 23:56
  Speaker 11: then you get, you know, we could jump to Apollonius
• 23:59
  Speaker 11: of Tyana, who's who's looking at these characters approach the
• 24:03
  Speaker 11: temple and they're throwing gold, and they're throwing animals, and
• 24:08
  Speaker 11: you know, they're they're wealthy, and they're throwing is all
• 24:10
  Speaker 11: these things at the altar and they're thinking that you
• 24:13
  Speaker 11: know this, this is clearly a projection of their ego
• 24:16
  Speaker 11: in the sacrifice they're not really sacrificing anything that's that's
• 24:20
  Speaker 11: actually has that emotional kind of connection to them. And
• 24:25
  Speaker 11: he kind of he, you know, he corrects this and
• 24:30
  Speaker 11: and he encourages this verbal or sacrifice of intelligence and gratitude,
• 24:37
  Speaker 11: and it brings it back to this internal kind of
• 24:40
  Speaker 11: behavioral approach, which is also implied in the sort of
• 24:44
  Speaker 11: Book of Isaiah that you need that corresponding behavior or
• 24:47
  Speaker 11: else these rituals are just the you know, these kind
• 24:50
  Speaker 11: of meaningless, meaningless rituals without any correspondence. And you know
• 24:57
  Speaker 11: in across the corpus her medicum in a f you places,
• 25:01
  Speaker 11: when they talk about sacrifice, it is it is explicitly
• 25:04
  Speaker 11: in this kind of verbal in the in the manner
• 25:08
  Speaker 11: of how you pray and you know what you're giving
• 25:11
  Speaker 11: gratitude for and you're sacrificing the twelve avenging diamonds, which
• 25:15
  Speaker 11: are which are these sinful behaviors. So uh, those are
• 25:19
  Speaker 11: some early examples of of sacrifice you know, connected with
• 25:24
  Speaker 11: self transformation. And that's like that strikes me as very
• 25:28
  Speaker 11: applicable to our modern predicament, you know, especially with our
• 25:33
  Speaker 11: instant gratification society and so and so on. We should
• 25:38
  Speaker 11: get clear about you know, what we are sacrificing and
• 25:42
  Speaker 11: and why. And I think in everyone's life, you're going
• 25:46
  Speaker 11: to reach this the kind of the dark night of
• 25:48
  Speaker 11: the soul moment where you get this choice and the choices.
• 25:52
  Speaker 11: You know, do I want to sacrifice these these darker
• 25:56
  Speaker 11: aspects and these greedier aspects of my ego that they
• 25:59
  Speaker 11: make me feel good and they provide this kind of
• 26:01
  Speaker 11: short term you know, rushes of dopamine and so forth.
• 26:05
  Speaker 11: Do I want to sacrifice those things for this higher
• 26:08
  Speaker 11: calling and this higher purpose? And right there is the
• 26:12
  Speaker 11: kind of conversation that I think is very applicable to
• 26:16
  Speaker 11: our modern predicament.
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Colin, thank you very much.
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: That really reminds me of like Peter mentioned sacrifice as
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: being this kind of purification process and that it isn't
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: something necessarily that you are unwilling to give up. It's
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: an act of service. And it makes me think about
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: the kind of our chemical dimension of sacrifice, this idea
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: of burning away everything that is impure to get to
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: the essence, to get to the spirit of something. And
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: I wonder whether very ancient people, because we can't really
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: say how long this idea of sacrifice has been gone
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: on for But if you look at ritual centers in Anatolia,
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: for example, certainly some sort of practices were occurring there
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: perhaps something that we could compare to sort of later
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: ideas of sacrifice. But I wonder whether it was something
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: that was noticed in the natural world. I think, you know,
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: we're just the vernal equinox now, and it does seem
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: as though the world goes through this process of death, sacrifice, destruction,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: and then rises again in the spring to be this
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: pure new life. So maybe it was something that people
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: saw mirrored in the natural world, that the world goes
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: through this process of offering up in abundance and then
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: being sacrificed, dying, returning to the earth, and then being
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: reborn in the springtime as well, because you know, a
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: lot of you have mentioned the mystery cults, and that tends.
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: To be the agrarian.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: The early agrarian rights are generally the things that turn
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: into mystery cults, and then the idea of sacrifice becomes
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: like a regular ritual feet to of them.
• 28:05
  Speaker 12: I I'd love to add on to that, yepdon So, yeah,
• 28:11
  Speaker 12: it kind of nails it with exactly what you're saying
• 28:13
  Speaker 12: in Colin and everyone else is speaking quite quite clearly
• 28:17
  Speaker 12: about that, and quite wisely, I'd like to add into
• 28:20
  Speaker 12: the idea of sacrifice as kind of stemming from the
• 28:23
  Speaker 12: ideals of to make sacred right, and so a lot
• 28:26
  Speaker 12: of in our current.
• 28:28
  Speaker 8: Zeitgeist we see sacrifice as.
• 28:31
  Speaker 12: You know, as Miles talked about at the end, this
• 28:34
  Speaker 12: whole bringing up the goat on a pillar and piriy
• 28:38
  Speaker 12: and sacrificing it to the gods. And I like to
• 28:41
  Speaker 12: try to understand that through somebody who has changed my life,
• 28:45
  Speaker 12: Joseph Campbell, right, and the Mono myth and the hero's journey,
• 28:49
  Speaker 12: And I think it's important that we understand that what
• 28:52
  Speaker 12: these symbolic references actually do for our own psychological transformation
• 28:57
  Speaker 12: is that when we're adhering to and accepting the call
• 29:01
  Speaker 12: to adventure, we're actually sacrificing the old self for something new.
• 29:09
  Speaker 12: And then once we go out into that adventure, we
• 29:13
  Speaker 12: are actually sacrifices at the very underpinning of everything the
• 29:17
  Speaker 12: individual does along the journey. And so you do have
• 29:21
  Speaker 12: that initial call to adventure sacrifice, but then you also
• 29:25
  Speaker 12: have the great supreme ordeal, as Joseph Campbell called it,
• 29:30
  Speaker 12: and that is once you're in the belly of the beast,
• 29:32
  Speaker 12: you must make the grandest of sacrifices to obtain the
• 29:36
  Speaker 12: holy supplical, you know, the Philosopher's Stone, the Holy Grail
• 29:39
  Speaker 12: or whatever that is. And then once you have that,
• 29:43
  Speaker 12: you have to steal make more sacrifices because the actual,
• 29:46
  Speaker 12: the hero's journey, the call to adventure, these things are
• 29:49
  Speaker 12: never done. You also, then upon the departure, when you
• 29:53
  Speaker 12: go home, you make that sacrifice one last time. You
• 29:57
  Speaker 12: must sacrifice everything that then you've become, to give that
• 30:02
  Speaker 12: Philosopher's Stone or that Holy Grail away to then the
• 30:05
  Speaker 12: village that you once left, which is really important. So
• 30:10
  Speaker 12: I think, especially in mono myth, like Joseph Campbell Way,
• 30:13
  Speaker 12: we always forget that the sacrifice is happening throughout the
• 30:16
  Speaker 12: whole thing, and then to bring it to kind of
• 30:18
  Speaker 12: my specialty and my nerddom is that one of the
• 30:22
  Speaker 12: greatest canons of alchemical literature is actually something called Full
• 30:27
  Speaker 12: Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and it's one of my favorite anime
• 30:31
  Speaker 12: of all time, and the very underpinning of that show
• 30:34
  Speaker 12: is actually the laws of equivalent exchange, which speak of
• 30:38
  Speaker 12: to obtain something something of equal value must be lost,
• 30:43
  Speaker 12: and I think that we are doing that.
• 30:45
  Speaker 8: All the time.
• 30:45
  Speaker 12: Like everyone said before me, is that we're giving away
• 30:49
  Speaker 12: our awareness, we're giving away our impressions, or you know,
• 30:54
  Speaker 12: it's actually in everything we see at all times, in
• 30:57
  Speaker 12: these black mirrors that we hold right next to us.
• 30:59
  Speaker 12: The thing we're looking into is that, as Colin put
• 31:03
  Speaker 12: on his Instagram, he's sacrificing his mourning to come be
• 31:08
  Speaker 12: here with us, you know, which I thought to be
• 31:11
  Speaker 12: both very quippy and very hilarious. And it's the truth
• 31:14
  Speaker 12: is that we are at all times giving up a
• 31:16
  Speaker 12: little of ourself.
• 31:18
  Speaker 8: And so it's really interesting. How then, when I spoke to.
• 31:22
  Speaker 12: Mark Stavish for one of my interviews in his great
• 31:25
  Speaker 12: book The Aggregor, you know, he didn't really want to
• 31:27
  Speaker 12: talk about that, because it seems that the aggregre is
• 31:31
  Speaker 12: what comes up in all things that we do. So
• 31:34
  Speaker 12: upon talking about just living in the world, we are
• 31:38
  Speaker 12: actually always sacrificing to some greater idea. And so upon
• 31:45
  Speaker 12: this journey and this call to adventure, we must understand
• 31:50
  Speaker 12: that we are going to become conscious agents so we
• 31:54
  Speaker 12: can become initiates, or so we can be ones who
• 31:57
  Speaker 12: are actually heroes on the journey, so we understand what
• 32:01
  Speaker 12: we are actually sacrificing, so we can then transmute that
• 32:06
  Speaker 12: and then gain that thing that we can then bring
• 32:09
  Speaker 12: back to the world because it's not enough just to
• 32:12
  Speaker 12: do it for ourselves. But I think kind of what
• 32:14
  Speaker 12: Miles was talking about is that body sought for nature,
• 32:16
  Speaker 12: is that we're trying to each individual, especially on this panel,
• 32:20
  Speaker 12: as we are all you know, esotericis or magicians or
• 32:23
  Speaker 12: whatever it is philosophers, we must understand that the greatest
• 32:27
  Speaker 12: sacrifice is the self for the higher self or the
• 32:30
  Speaker 12: greater self. And then once we do that, we can
• 32:33
  Speaker 12: go back to our family and our small cities and
• 32:35
  Speaker 12: our towns, thus giving whatever that holy grail is to
• 32:40
  Speaker 12: ours that we've gained on the journey to the rest
• 32:43
  Speaker 12: of our people. So that's kind of my little take
• 32:46
  Speaker 12: on what is it that we're sacrificing. Well, you know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 12: we can make that decision every time we leave our
• 32:53
  Speaker 12: small little circles and go out in the world, and
• 32:56
  Speaker 12: then we can become that agent of agent of light
• 32:59
  Speaker 12: or to or we can understand that truth can then
• 33:03
  Speaker 12: disclose itself to us and we can then become change.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Brandon, as you were talking, though, I'm reminded
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: of the story of Prometheus tricking Zeus and sneaking the
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: kind of bones underneath the glistening layer of fat story.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: I wonder if anyone wanted to talk about that, because
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: that's kind of like the archetypal sacrifice from mythology, this
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: idea that sacrifice is a theohennia, a sacred meal with
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: the gods. So thinking about sacrifices, this kind of magical
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: act of sharing and binding with the creators of the world,
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: with these divine entities.
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: JB.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: I wondered if you might like to talk about the
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: kind of astrological, astronomical magical entanglements between what we do
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: here on Earth what we can give to the entities
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: of the stars and the planets.
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: Have you got some thoughts about that?
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think you know. I've been preparing
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: to have to talk about this or try to talk
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: about this with others. A lot of my initial cluster
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: of thoughts and impressions really came from my original background
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: is in anthropology, So generally I would look in like
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: a broader way in my understanding at a topic and
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: then how it might tie into how I've been bound
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: up in different traditions that have elements which could be
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: talked about within the idea of sacrifice. And so yes,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: definitely in terms of what we might call like astrological practices,
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: I think that there is a thing to talk about
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: in there, but to tie it back to something that
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: you were saying earlier about what is it that we
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: may be seeing in the world that we then relate
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: to this And that led me first to the ideas
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: that arise from within Vedic traditions, which is the idea
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: that the sun is cooking the world. And you know,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: this is an idea that comes from an anthropologist named
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Malamud who is studying Vedic ritual and the practice of
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: fire offerings that were made and where animals substances or
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: plant substances are burned in a puja, and some interesting
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: things come up around that, and that, you know, the
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: the thing that is really being thought about is this
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: idea of cooking the world and participating in its cooking
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: is like a way that it's like the right way
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: to bring both like an internal and an external sort
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: of aspect to what's going on. So ultimately, within those traditions,
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: the brahman who is doing the puja is the actual sacrifice.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: They are the sacrifice themselves, and it's through substitution based
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: on ideas around what animals or plants may be appropriate
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: to represent the transformation that they are actually enlictiting within
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: themselves that goes on there. And I don't know like
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: how relevant that is, but I think that equally, like
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: it's hard for me not to think about what might
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: be the case of what we may define as sacrifice
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: within and like these contexts that later become through like
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: different tantric and Patashanic traditions become more about all internalized.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: So the body is the site of the sacrifice, the
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: breath is the agent of what is sacrificed, and the
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: mind or transformation to the mind or contemplation become like
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: the thing that is ultimately involved in all of that.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: So there's not a a there's really the sacrifice of
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: the self or like aspects of the self that are
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: involved in that. Or you could have within Buddhist tantric
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: stuff like Miles would be more familiar with. You know,
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: there's wrong perceptions that you're trying to annihilate by sacrificing
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: the some version of a misunderstanding of self is existent,
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: and in that way, you know, you're actually visualizing chopping
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: your own body up offering in a cup to like
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: the deities or the Buddhists that you work with. So
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: in all these you see like how at least within
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: those you're all seeing how the self of the purse,
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: of the person who's offering the sacrifice, some aspect of
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: them is like bound up in the actual process of
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: what is going on. You know, there's not like a
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: separateness from it. And the last two that I would
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: maybe bring in and then I'll be quiet about it
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: for a little while and then eventually answer your question
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: about the astromagic part is that withinanimous systems usually is
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: about relationships, and so if you kill, killing will always
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: maybe has the potential to disrupt spiritual and also social
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: broader social connections that we view it as like relational.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: So in this way, ritual is usually utilized to maintain
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: reciprocity and dynamics within within a broader understanding of the group.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: And so for me like trying to move away from
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: certain things that might be more obvious with an astromagic
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: where ultimately you could take examples from the PGM or
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: from the picka tricks where we have the idea that
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: how we engage in it, be it animal, plant, or mineral.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: It's usually combined with the timing. So if it is
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: like a solar related thing, there's often like either the
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: sun is in strong a strong way in an astrological sense,
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: or we're aligning it with a solar an important solar
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: moment like dawn and the sacrifice. Animals are burn because
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: they have a quality that relates to the cosmic force,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: and a lot of times through those there's either a
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: thought that you're either aligning with like a natural connection,
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: you know, so you're utilizing all this do that if
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: you're making talentsmans or insult statues or whatever you might
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: think of it, whatever tradition, it's usually utilizing of the
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: animals components which are either released to I guess bring
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: forward the cosmic essence if you will, because there probably
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: are speaking about an idea of the sacrificing, the burning
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: or the killing of the animal as being is a
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: way of releasing that essence. And then it could be
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: to again elevate you to the place of the gods
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: or where we want to think about that or the
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: gods in the world is being reat rated, like I mentioned,
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: or it could be also about trying to bring that
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: into a more material form that is now held or
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: within a talisman or statue, you know. So it's like
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: a sense of alignment that is going on there. But
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: I think that, you know, this is something that anyone
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: who's engaged, and I'm not a reconstructionist, so I don't
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: like obsess over trying to figure out exactly what was
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: done before so that I can repeat it perfectly as
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: it should be done. But I think that any time
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: I've ever been engaged and the practices that I am
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: involved with, with making talismans or with various things that
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: could be thought of as theurgical, you know, a lot
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: of these the messiness of these thoughts sort of sit
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: within my understanding about it, and it's kind of evolving.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: But the last thing that I kind of wanted to
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: say and then I will be quiet, that brings it
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: back to what you were saying, is that I think
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: the way that sacrifice inhabits like a contemporary Western imagination
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: is an important thing for us to sit with within
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: a conversation because we generally think about human sacrifice and
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: we think about blood. You know, and these things have
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: a rich history within Christianity that I think are quite
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: important and the way that Christianity has a lasting influence
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: within our social and our imagination social life and imagination.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: But equally, I think that it sits within that idea.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if this is the right way
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: to say it, but I think, like a lot of people,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: when they're imagining it, they're imagining like a releasing of
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: some kind of bound up libidinal force. That is, like
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: we enter some very strange state of primal something when
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: we would kill another human and offer their blood, you know.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: So in this way, what is released really from that
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: kind of aligned to the idea of something as being
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: released when it's happening. But then why it is happening
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: and what transformation is it meant to elicit or what
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: relationship is it like recreating? I think is up for
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: a question in the moment, which maybe is more relevant
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: to the focus of why you wanted to bring it up.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: So anyway, that was enough, I've said too much.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: That was great, Thank you very much, jad Alike, You've
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: got your hand up.
• 43:48
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that was actually quite relevant, I think, and beautifully
• 43:53
  Speaker 7: put in a lot of instances, and I guess I'll
• 43:57
  Speaker 7: elaborate a little bit based off of what JD was
• 44:02
  Speaker 7: talking about. I speak mostly not entirely, but mostly in
• 44:09
  Speaker 7: an experiential component or capacity from you know, both Freemasonry,
• 44:17
  Speaker 7: but more in particularly the hermetic order of the Golden Dawn.
• 44:20
  Speaker 7: And so that's kind of where I'm gonna you know,
• 44:22
  Speaker 7: that's where I'm going to be coming from. But there's
• 44:28
  Speaker 7: a mundane sacrifice in this system, or an acknowledgment of
• 44:33
  Speaker 7: mundane sacrifices, and then there is a gesturing toward and
• 44:38
  Speaker 7: eventually a revealing, a revelation of a greater sacrifice, what
• 44:43
  Speaker 7: we might call a spiritual sacrifice to use a kind
• 44:47
  Speaker 7: of cliche and generic and hazy term, but an example
• 44:52
  Speaker 7: of mundane sacrifice not you know, Okay, moving on from
• 44:55
  Speaker 7: sacrificing time, sacrificing money, sacrificing energy, there are sacrifice vice
• 45:00
  Speaker 7: is that need to be made. In other words, we
• 45:03
  Speaker 7: sacrifice the innocence and the leisure of childhood for the
• 45:08
  Speaker 7: changes in anatomy and position within family, within society that
• 45:12
  Speaker 7: puberty brings about, and then eventually into adulthood. That's a
• 45:15
  Speaker 7: sacrifice that has to be made. If you're not willing
• 45:17
  Speaker 7: to make that sacrifice. Vice in all of its ways
• 45:20
  Speaker 7: is going to be painful for you. Now that change
• 45:23
  Speaker 7: itself is painful regardless, right, I mean, most of us
• 45:27
  Speaker 7: I think here can recall our those that change and like, eh,
• 45:32
  Speaker 7: you know, like I wouldn't want to go back for
• 45:35
  Speaker 7: any amount of money. But there is a prolonged pain
• 45:40
  Speaker 7: that is fighting nature. And so in the Golden Dawn,
• 45:43
  Speaker 7: when you're first initiated, you're called a neo phicitos neophyte.
• 45:47
  Speaker 7: That means obviously many people here speak you understand this
• 45:50
  Speaker 7: language newly planted. What is being implied specifically in the
• 45:55
  Speaker 7: Golden Dawn through this is that like a seed, you
• 45:59
  Speaker 7: have something in you. You have an oak tree, you
• 46:03
  Speaker 7: have a maple tree, but that thing cannot take root
• 46:06
  Speaker 7: and grow until you die. You you, the seed must
• 46:13
  Speaker 7: become something completely different in order to fulfill what it
• 46:18
  Speaker 7: was meant to do.
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: Okay, So.
• 46:22
  Speaker 7: I also studied Chinese medicine for years. That's my primary
• 46:28
  Speaker 7: educational background. In Chinese medicine, we'd say that the seed
• 46:35
  Speaker 7: and it's it's it's dissolving of that outer membrane and
• 46:39
  Speaker 7: the setting of roots and the shooting of the of
• 46:41
  Speaker 7: the sprout that it does that because it's it's chi. Okay,
• 46:46
  Speaker 7: it's not just chi. Isn't just this substance. It's a
• 46:48
  Speaker 7: term to reflect nature, what nature does.
• 46:51
  Speaker 8: It does this because it's it's chi.
• 46:54
  Speaker 7: I would say our you know, our chi, or if
• 46:58
  Speaker 7: we want to put it in proclean terms, our paradigm,
• 47:01
  Speaker 7: our greatest good, the thing that we are constantly trying
• 47:04
  Speaker 7: to get back to and mimic. Some people have a
• 47:08
  Speaker 7: very confused way of doing this, right. They think that
• 47:11
  Speaker 7: they're that they're trying for their greatest good, even when
• 47:14
  Speaker 7: they're doing horrible things. It's cheating, people, lying, stealing that
• 47:19
  Speaker 7: they think that they're going for their greatest good. But
• 47:22
  Speaker 7: our chi our greatest good, and at least according to
• 47:25
  Speaker 7: the Platonic philosophy, and I agree with this, would be
• 47:27
  Speaker 7: our eros eros. It's not in terms of physical erotic love,
• 47:32
  Speaker 7: but more so the desire that our soul has for reunion.
• 47:36
  Speaker 7: That reunion isn't just you kind of you know, ascending
• 47:40
  Speaker 7: into the stratosphere and dissolving, you know, becoming one with
• 47:43
  Speaker 7: the cosmos. In a more practical sense, it's grounding in
• 47:47
  Speaker 7: the material reality and recognizing everything around you as divine,
• 47:50
  Speaker 7: and nothing here is more or less important than you
• 47:54
  Speaker 7: particularly less nothing here is less important or or yeah,
• 47:59
  Speaker 7: less important than than you are. You know, everything is
• 48:02
  Speaker 7: kind of has that equal amount of of divinity in it,
• 48:05
  Speaker 7: but each of us has a different chi. And I
• 48:09
  Speaker 7: would orient strongly that this, this sacrifice is in order
• 48:13
  Speaker 7: to it is something that has to happen in order
• 48:16
  Speaker 7: for us to evolve into our greatest good, into our
• 48:20
  Speaker 7: highest errors. And in the Golden Dawn we say, when
• 48:24
  Speaker 7: you take your obligation, you say, from this day forward,
• 48:27
  Speaker 7: I die to the old life and am reborn to
• 48:29
  Speaker 7: the new. And you vow to expend every possible energy,
• 48:36
  Speaker 7: effort resource in the pursuit of being elevated and rising
• 48:41
  Speaker 7: by divine aid to union with your higher divine genius,
• 48:44
  Speaker 7: which is the personal diamond, the familiar, the personal diamond
• 48:49
  Speaker 7: is the is the higher genius of the Golden Dawn tradition.
• 48:51
  Speaker 7: And we say, in doing so, to become more than human.
• 48:55
  Speaker 7: But uh, in my experiences, it's not necessarily to become
• 48:59
  Speaker 7: in viewed with angelic or or godly powers. It's to
• 49:03
  Speaker 7: become more than just human. So in other words, to
• 49:07
  Speaker 7: wrap put a big bow on this For me, the experience,
• 49:10
  Speaker 7: at least of where I am in this process is
• 49:13
  Speaker 7: to be led to have guidance that is higher than
• 49:16
  Speaker 7: just what you want in that immediate moment, or even
• 49:19
  Speaker 7: even you sitting there with pen and pencil trying to
• 49:22
  Speaker 7: draw out this equation and say, oh, you know, well,
• 49:25
  Speaker 7: if I do it this way and do it that way,
• 49:27
  Speaker 7: it'll work and it'll be for the greatest good and
• 49:29
  Speaker 7: a lot of times right as we say, man plans
• 49:31
  Speaker 7: and the God's laugh.
• 49:33
  Speaker 8: So it's this this.
• 49:36
  Speaker 7: Ability to be led and getting in touch with with
• 49:40
  Speaker 7: I think you know these a sort of higher order
• 49:44
  Speaker 7: of of of of intelligence. I think you know that's
• 49:48
  Speaker 7: what it looks like for me. That's what it looks
• 49:50
  Speaker 7: like for a Golden Dawn practitioner. It's it's that making
• 49:55
  Speaker 7: that communication and then widening that stream and allowing yourself
• 49:58
  Speaker 7: to be guided through this life.
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: Thank you, I Peter and archistis could I bring you
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: in at this point? I'd love to hear your perspective
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: and how you see sacrifice or if you have responses
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: to anyone.
• 50:13
  Speaker 13: So far, many many interesting things said, and I'll try
• 50:19
  Speaker 13: and feed some of the thoughts I had about what
• 50:22
  Speaker 13: I've been hearing. But my background is my spiritual path
• 50:27
  Speaker 13: is as a dancer. So dance is my spiritual path,
• 50:30
  Speaker 13: and particularly it is specifically Bhuto. And there is an
• 50:35
  Speaker 13: image of the great burnt sacrifice, so dance as being
• 50:38
  Speaker 13: a great burned offering or sacrifice. And also one of
• 50:42
  Speaker 13: the sort of core positions within Butho is called the
• 50:48
  Speaker 13: ash column walk, or it's a walk where one removes.
• 50:53
  Speaker 13: It's like an emptying or a removal of the sort
• 50:56
  Speaker 13: of daily consciousness and just an eradicated of the self
• 51:00
  Speaker 13: in order to transform. So it's this zero point or
• 51:06
  Speaker 13: this empty body, which is the sacrifice itself through dance
• 51:12
  Speaker 13: and the transformations the transformation of the body of the
• 51:17
  Speaker 13: self of movement, but on a spiritual level as well,
• 51:20
  Speaker 13: is driven by sacrifice. But this kind of sacrifice dance
• 51:25
  Speaker 13: and movement is sacrifice and breath and intention And so
• 51:29
  Speaker 13: I was, yes, like time, attention, all of these things
• 51:33
  Speaker 13: are sacrifice, but I was thinking about intentionality as well,
• 51:37
  Speaker 13: that we're when I'm dancing, there's a sort of a breath,
• 51:43
  Speaker 13: a greater breath with the cosmos, in which there is
• 51:47
  Speaker 13: an exchange continually like a cycling. It's sort of like
• 51:51
  Speaker 13: alchemically charges up the energy so that more change is driven,
• 51:58
  Speaker 13: more transformation can take place, and it's in this sort
• 52:01
  Speaker 13: of reciprocal relationship with what's outside through the breath and
• 52:06
  Speaker 13: through movement. But I also thought that we are also participating,
• 52:12
  Speaker 13: Like not every time that we lose our attention or
• 52:15
  Speaker 13: we give our time, are we making sacrifice, because so
• 52:18
  Speaker 13: often we're participating as sacrificed as just giving our potential
• 52:24
  Speaker 13: or giving up time and not being consciously like doing that,
• 52:28
  Speaker 13: but it just being this lowering of attention and consciousness,
• 52:35
  Speaker 13: or just to consider the idea of participating in the
• 52:38
  Speaker 13: world as we are, that we are living now in
• 52:42
  Speaker 13: other people's sacrifices, knowingly or unknowingly, and how one deals
• 52:46
  Speaker 13: with how one psychologically but also emotionally recognize as one's
• 52:55
  Speaker 13: participation in like the whole world of sacrifice, this turning
• 53:01
  Speaker 13: through lives being's death. Yeah, I don't know if that
• 53:06
  Speaker 13: made a lot of sense. It's it really is. Within Bhuttos,
• 53:13
  Speaker 13: sacrifice is the thing which drives transformation and drives spiritual transformation.
• 53:18
  Speaker 13: So dance is the thing which allows us to become
• 53:24
  Speaker 13: more than human or other than human. That's really the
• 53:28
  Speaker 13: thing I wanted that I had been thinking about this, yeah,
• 53:32
  Speaker 13: rather than the sort of kind of cliched ideas of sacrifice.
• 53:37
  Speaker 13: That's one aspect of which sacrifice is central to what
• 53:40
  Speaker 13: I do.
• 53:41
  Speaker 14: So hi everyone, thank you, Thank you everyone. He's here
• 53:48
  Speaker 14: and for all getting up your time. It's been lovely
• 53:51
  Speaker 14: to you your different perspectives and just talk. Under a
• 53:56
  Speaker 14: few sort of headings, I've been making one of seeing here,
• 54:01
  Speaker 14: of blood, fire and flowers. So my background is in
• 54:08
  Speaker 14: Western tradition from a plemically inspired part. So the majority
• 54:15
  Speaker 14: of my work has been engaged with a sacrifice practice
• 54:20
  Speaker 14: based on some of Crony's ideas about the bloody sacrifice,
• 54:24
  Speaker 14: about the offering of the self to the beloved. So
• 54:27
  Speaker 14: the ideas that I have around sacrifice come out of
• 54:29
  Speaker 14: my own personal work, which is very often and offering
• 54:33
  Speaker 14: work of blood and fluids Jesus is like the typical
• 54:38
  Speaker 14: Western tantric approach to things. And I was hoping we
• 54:42
  Speaker 14: were going to have Judio here as well, because one
• 54:44
  Speaker 14: of the things that's missing in the West is an
• 54:48
  Speaker 14: offering of animals in sacrifice. Most of the time, as
• 54:51
  Speaker 14: Western practitioners, what we're doing is we're talking about giving
• 54:55
  Speaker 14: ourselves up to the higher self, or sacrificing ourselves as
• 54:59
  Speaker 14: the self the beloved, rather than rather than sacrificing something
• 55:04
  Speaker 14: to a spirit as part of a transactional relationship. So
• 55:09
  Speaker 14: I just wanted to say that there are a few
• 55:10
  Speaker 14: things to think about with this blood sacrifice, and one
• 55:14
  Speaker 14: of them. One of them is very much what we
• 55:17
  Speaker 14: know about which everyone has two wolves and which wolf
• 55:21
  Speaker 14: do you feed? And there's always a risk when you're
• 55:25
  Speaker 14: engaged in a practice of sacrifice that you're entering into
• 55:28
  Speaker 14: a pact or an arrangement with spirit, and in doing so,
• 55:31
  Speaker 14: it's quite easy to be pulled out of shape by
• 55:34
  Speaker 14: that and by the demands of the spirits you're working with.
• 55:37
  Speaker 14: So there's also a negotiation with sacrifice. There's a there's
• 55:42
  Speaker 14: a need to both have boundaries and also to push
• 55:45
  Speaker 14: one's boundaries. And it's that that difficult process which often
• 55:48
  Speaker 14: goes wrong for Western practitioners, largely because they're working as
• 55:54
  Speaker 14: lone individuals rather than in the temple setting. For example
• 55:58
  Speaker 14: that IC has with a Golden Dawn group that seems
• 56:02
  Speaker 14: to be a rarity rather than the rule. The rule
• 56:04
  Speaker 14: tends to be alone individuals making terrible mistakes so that
• 56:09
  Speaker 14: the path of sacrifice can very often lead to people
• 56:13
  Speaker 14: living disordered, dysfunctional, chaotic lives and thinking that they're engaged
• 56:20
  Speaker 14: in the process of sacrifice when they're in fact simply
• 56:22
  Speaker 14: engaged in the process of failing disastrously at life. So
• 56:28
  Speaker 14: that's the blood part of it. The second aspect that
• 56:31
  Speaker 14: I wanted to mention was fire. So fire is a
• 56:35
  Speaker 14: very important part of the sacrificial process that I work with.
• 56:39
  Speaker 14: We see this classically with the example of Jack Parsons.
• 56:43
  Speaker 14: When Jack went through the Babylon working, he spent a
• 56:47
  Speaker 14: lot of time passing things through the fire to the goddess.
• 56:53
  Speaker 14: So he was putting things that were important to him
• 56:57
  Speaker 14: into the other world, very much giving up things that
• 57:01
  Speaker 14: he didn't want to give up, which was interesting to
• 57:04
  Speaker 14: me because some of my some of my earliest magical
• 57:07
  Speaker 14: work involved burning objects that I didn't wish to pass
• 57:13
  Speaker 14: through the fire. So there's there's a need to give
• 57:16
  Speaker 14: up something that that is difficult for oneself. And again
• 57:20
  Speaker 14: with with blood offering, I'm I'm pretty hemophobic. So when
• 57:24
  Speaker 14: I when I make a blood offering, it's not something
• 57:26
  Speaker 14: that that I wish to do. It's something that my
• 57:29
  Speaker 14: body rebels against me doing so. In order to do so,
• 57:33
  Speaker 14: I'm extending my control over myself. And again, something we
• 57:38
  Speaker 14: do with books very often, when we've finished a book,
• 57:44
  Speaker 14: we will we will pass a copy of the book
• 57:47
  Speaker 14: through the fire into the other world. So we're literally,
• 57:50
  Speaker 14: we're literally going through that boundary and using fire to
• 57:54
  Speaker 14: pass through into the other world for there. And then
• 57:57
  Speaker 14: the final thing I wanted to talk about was flowers.
• 58:00
  Speaker 14: So I've been reading a lot of H. Lawrence at
• 58:02
  Speaker 14: the moment, so everything in my head is a bit
• 58:05
  Speaker 14: d Lawrency. So we were up on the moors for
• 58:11
  Speaker 14: the equinox the other day, and there are a lot
• 58:17
  Speaker 14: of very old stone teams up there, and so we
• 58:21
  Speaker 14: went to make sacrifice with the spring equinox. And the
• 58:25
  Speaker 14: sacrifice that I made for the spring equinox was a
• 58:29
  Speaker 14: single wild violet and an offering of water to the
• 58:33
  Speaker 14: dead to communicate and talk to them about spring coming
• 58:38
  Speaker 14: back to the land and to spend some time in
• 58:42
  Speaker 14: their world. And this is the other thing with sacrifice
• 58:45
  Speaker 14: in that this I'm very careful about what I take
• 58:48
  Speaker 14: and what I offer and where it comes from. This
• 58:52
  Speaker 14: is a very remote site and I found a bank
• 58:55
  Speaker 14: of wild violets, and I took a single one of
• 58:57
  Speaker 14: these tiny flowers as not a sacrifice. And the question
• 59:02
  Speaker 14: is whether is this my sacrifice to the dead or
• 59:05
  Speaker 14: is this the violet sacrifice to the dead.
• 59:09
  Speaker 8: Is this the.
• 59:09
  Speaker 14: Sacrifice that's coming from the land, And what part do
• 59:12
  Speaker 14: I have in passing through this this kind of these
• 59:17
  Speaker 14: great kind of rivers of time when I'm talking to
• 59:19
  Speaker 14: the ancient dead and I'm talking to the spirits of
• 59:22
  Speaker 14: the plants that are in the land, and I'm engaging
• 59:25
  Speaker 14: in this. So sacrifice is such a such a huge,
• 59:30
  Speaker 14: a huge subject for all of us. And it's a negotiation,
• 59:35
  Speaker 14: and it's an offering of self and it's an offering
• 59:39
  Speaker 14: of other and this is standing in for something that
• 59:41
  Speaker 14: we're doing when we're engaged in the process. And I
• 59:44
  Speaker 14: hope that's that's some help people.
• 59:48
  Speaker 5: That was wonderful.
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Alchistics, Thank you so much, Peter
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: and our Chista. Is what you mentioned about you're dancing
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: and was it the column of ash that you mentioned?
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: It really makes me think of this idea of.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: To prepare yourself in a theurgic sense. Is this idea
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: of an emptying out, making yourself this pure empty vessel,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: so that you can be filled with divine essence, almost
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: like a possession. And that makes me think as well
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: about sacrifice, as I mentioned at the beginning, as this
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: preparation of a scapegoat or a proxy that takes on
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: the unwanted aspects of self. Say, for example, in magical
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: medical practice, you transfer an illnessness onto a goat and
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: then you slaughter the goat, or you set the goat
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: out to row and free and you just send it off.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: So wonderful points. Thank you both of you so much.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: Anyone else I.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 5: Saw, Sewen that you had your hand up earlier. Are
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 5: you there, Shen, Hello, Hi, Sarah, Hi everyone.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: That's as the pleasure to hear everybody's perspective. The way
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: that I come to the study of what the sacrifice
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: is is my background is in engineering and in chemical engineering,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: and I have done a lot of work related to
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: different processes that consciousness can also be part of the medium,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: the flow and the potentials to go. When we're basically
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: like in the physics that we know, there is always
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: a flow from where the potential is higher to where
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: the potential is lower. So when you bring this into
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: phenomenology of experiences and looking to sacrifice from that sense,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: the way that I have been studying it, it's actually
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: coming from mass diasnal or basically the tradition of Zarathustra,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: which is type of an Indo Iranian kind of like
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: after the Indo Iranian split into the land of Iran
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: and Uh and India. So the way that that Gothas
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: which is the is related to Zarathustra, defines Zarathustra. It
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: defines Zarathustra as a zota, which is a fully officiated
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: priest of his time and as like or zotra. This
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: this word which is an ancient old eveston ward, it
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: actually means offering. So the priest or like when as
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: a fully ordained priest, when they wanted to have this
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: exchange like this libation or offering, the offering was done
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: to the source of of the elements like that contribute
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: to our vital forces and life. So one part of
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: the zout zota was participating in this ceremony called the Asna.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: And in Yasna they are having these offerings to the
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: to fire, to water, to other elements.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 8: It's more like.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Elements that contribute to return of the vital forces that
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: we have used as human and then we have to
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: give an offering to refiel these sources that being used.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: So in UH, the offering to fire. So what they
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: do is that the offering to fire in Zoastrianism is
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: related to blood sacrifice, and what they do is that
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: the priests bring a piece of uh kind of like
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: you fuel and then an oil of a fresh sacrifice
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: and then offer it to fire for the fire force
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: no to continue and perpetually like serve human. And when
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: they want to do the offering to water, the offering
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: to water actually comes from sacrificing this ancient plant which
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: actually is known as equivalent of soma, which is Homer
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: that they are actually pressing that like that's pressing is
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: counted as an act of sacrifice of this plant that
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: carries wisdom, and then they mix it with another plant
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: and then they put milk on it, and then a
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: part of it is actually being taken, which is a
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: psychoactive compound is being taken by the priest like the
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: pully ordered priest, and the other part is actually being
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: given back to the waters. That they call it aubonne
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: for the return of the vital forces to waters. So
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: in that sense, they see sacrifice as an exchange between
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: the human order more I think in a primordial term,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: which is more like connected to what is more aligned
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: to the unconscious side of our consciousness, and then it's
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: like an exchange with a higher order. For the cosmic
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: it's basically with the cosmos for an exchange that actually
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: put everything on order. And if you thermodynamically look into it,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: like the order is aligned with anything that lowers entropy
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: and the disorder or chaos with the higher entropy. And
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: I think this is the distinction that actually comes to
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: the duality of Zarathustra, that he has distinction for how
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: to contribute to something that actually brings back order in
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: a cosmological way and then what actually brings disorderliness or
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: chaos on the other side, which in Zarathustra's concept, I
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: think this is more like a psycho spiritual framework that's
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: partly related to spirituality too, which order is actually what
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: has to because order actually has to be a hurrik,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: which is something that actually comes from goodness. And then
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: on the other side there's divas in in zo Astronism
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: or even in Hinduism that there are kind of like
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: the negative gods or the bad gods. So the distinction
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: is actually between the two because you can sacrifice to
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: any of them, so to the goodness or to the
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: other side. So my work has been mostly on Homa
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: and the ceremony of Homa, but the connection of sacrifice
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: in Homa ceremony in they.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 8: Call it.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: Absorb which is the offering as related to the waters,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: and also to attaches or adzor which is the offering
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: of animal, which is offered to the fires. So to me,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: it's more like the sacrifice is an exchange between human
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: order and cosmological order for bringing us more into like
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: what takes distance from chaos and into the order.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Shwan.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: That's very similar to the concept in Greece of making
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: sacrifice to the gods and that sacrifices. You're sharing a
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: meal with the gods because you eat part of the
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: sacrifice or the group part of the sacrifice, and what
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: remains is burnt and that smoke travels up to heaven
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: and nourishes the gods.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: So that's very interesting. Thank you so much, Siri.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I really love that idea of this sacrifice being
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 9: a function of rebalancing and reordering. Several people have touched
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 9: on this idea of sacrifice being part of Yeah, first,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 9: like a kind of an individual experience, but there is
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 9: something very important about the collective experience of sacrifice and
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 9: what it does for the collective. Like, so there are
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 9: some kind of traditions that I think we can look
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 9: at in relation to that. And I also wanted to
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 9: take it back to the question that you asked some
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 9: time ago, Sarah, when you talked about you can feel
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 9: that something is going to be sacrificed and you wonder
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 9: what it's going to be. Right, something is definitely changing
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 9: in the world around us, some kind of something, some
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 9: rebalancing is happening. I mean, you can really definitely see
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 9: that if you don't only have to open the news
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 9: to understand that something is going to happen. If something
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 9: is being sacrificed and something is kind of like on
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 9: the on the offering table in order to rebalance and
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 9: what that's going to be, I'm not entirely sure, but
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 9: that the shift is definitely there. And I also think
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 9: that I just want to ask the question to the group, like,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 9: how do you guys see this move from from the
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 9: individual expense of ritual practice and sacrifice within your own
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 9: sphere and like and this more kind of collective, what's
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 9: happening in humanity, what's happening in like your country, the
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 9: place where you're at, like or in the larger kind
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 9: of global community in terms of how this functions not
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 9: necessarily through our participation, but just as a fort just
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 9: as a force of of of the cosmos, right, it
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 9: demands its own sacrifices, like when things go out of wack,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 9: you kind of it will claim something the same as
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 9: a as a as a pack of gazelles will hunt
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 9: a zebra, and the minute, the minute the zebras is
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 9: felled and eaten, all the others ever stopped running because
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 9: now that the sacrifice has been made and that they
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 9: can come back to order. And so I wonder if
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 9: anyone has any thought about this duality of the individual
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 9: versus the collective.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Siri, that I think what Shan
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: and Siri touched upon there, this idea of the sacrifice
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: as being something about establishing an order and a communication
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: between the divine and the earthly realms is super interesting
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: and makes me think also of the principle of my
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: art in ancient Egypt and how the heart is offered up,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 4: and if the heart isn't light and balanced, the person
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: will be eaten by amit, the you know, this kind
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 4: of chaotic hybrid force. And I think that that's what
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: so much magic is about, is about working out the
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: language of nature, the pattern of nature, so that you
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 4: can understand the order and read it.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 5: So I find that really interesting idea.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 15: Nick, Yeah, thank you. I really I didn't have an answer.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 15: Oh I thought you did that. Sorry, so I thought
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 15: you were in control of that. My bad. I really
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 15: didn't have an answer to that question. I didn't want
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 15: to raise my hand to say something else, so I
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 15: feel bad. I mean, I could get my opinion, but
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 15: there was something else I even wanted to kind of
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 15: bring up, because I do think it's I do think it.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 15: Maybe it's something that we've danced around, or maybe in
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 15: my head that's what I'm doing. But you know, we're
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 15: talking about sacrifice, and I think there's many levels of that,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 15: like even like I and other people who are saying with,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 15: you know, giving up certain things, you know, time, money,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 15: bad habits, certain behaviors, frames of ways of thinking. But
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 15: you know, we kind of mentioned something about a great
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 15: sacrifice or the ultimate sacrifice, and not too I do
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 15: take it in a dark area or to try to
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 15: sound edgy, But due to my own experiences and things
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 15: that I've looked into myself and research, I do wonder
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 15: and I wanted to ask other people's opinion if part
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 15: of sometimes sacrifice literally would be the blood and flesh
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 15: of your own body, Like if you separating your soul
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 15: from your body the ultimate sacrifice, because I am leaving
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 15: everything else that I am in love with and attached
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 15: to in this world gone, you know, That's I just
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 15: wonder sometimes if that is something that is actually maybe
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 15: possibly directed to or pointed at in the esoteric or
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 15: the occult, is actually like you know, we're talking about
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 15: you know, astral stuff before OBEs. You look at shamanism,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 15: they're pushing themselves to the edge of death NDEs. Some
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 15: people's stories with NDEs could sound very close people's magical experiences.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 15: So is there you know, this is the death and
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 15: the rebirth actually literal? Is that the ultimate sacrifice that
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 15: some people may make to have an experience other people's don't.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 15: I was just wondering if the other people.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: That's pretty good, Pascal, Maybe this is a good place
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: to bring you into the conversation.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 16: Yeah, I don't know, it's just been so fascinating thing
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 16: to listening to everybody, because I had an original intention
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 16: of going off on one about kind of like I
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 16: did with at the end there with the one about
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 16: my most recent fixation on euthology and stuff, which definitely
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 16: has its place here, but I don't want to derail things.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 16: But maybe near the end, if we get into weird
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 16: the territory, then maybe. But so, I guess one thing
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 16: I've been thinking before, and touch John especially by showing
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 16: what he said absolutely loved and then and then what
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 16: Nick kind of mentioned with the near death thing. I
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 16: don't know exactly how to pass it, but but yeah,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 16: I mean, so going back to like the etymology of sacrifices,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 16: there's there's it's to make sacred, and this idea of
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 16: a sacrifice of them giving something up that is most
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 16: valuable to the beyond or something beyond just your yourself,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 16: your your your own ego, and thereby making making it sacred.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 16: And and obviously we've spoken a great deal about self
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 16: sacrifice and how that can lead to service, and even
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 16: you know, body sat for heard it and so so
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 16: with that, like around that kind of the self sacrifice
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 16: and the death of yourself and ego death, I mean,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 16: obviously that's that's something which will be inherited. Two different
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 16: types of these kind of esoteric practices which I've been
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 16: talking about, but especially kind like an extremists like a
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 16: psychedelic experience, and obviously there you know, they that that
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 16: of itself may have a party playing these magical practices
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 16: ancient Greek or other mystery cults, et cetera, or shamanic
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 16: kind of austerities you know, where that can happen in
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 16: very dramatic ways, or the near death experience as as
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 16: Nick brought up, which is you know, which is more
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 16: of a kind of explicit death yet near death. So yeah,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 16: but you're but so in terms of how that then
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 16: links to the making of it's sacred, I mean, you know,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 16: your very self, your very sense of your own extantness
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 16: in this reality is being friend or or you're willing
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 16: for it to be dissolved, which is that then I
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 16: think allowing for just on a kind of neural level,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 16: if we were to mediate it that way and not
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 16: any reduction this way, But there is a dissolution of
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 16: like your your the self, the self model and your
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 16: world model, and through that there can be you know,
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 16: one can encounter the kind of is the kind of
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 16: ground of reality, kind of the noetic revelatory experience and
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 16: there or just this this ultimate connection to to the
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 16: universal ward a reappraising of it as as ultimately sacred.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 16: So it's a it's a sacralization process where you, you know,
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 16: one of the original attributes of the mystical experience, you know,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 16: is considered this this touching of something which is holy.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 16: But ultimately you're you're just your your discovering yourself and
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 16: the world that has something intrinsically holy. And again on
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 16: the kind of neuroscience thing which Chewing was saying, but
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 16: not specifically in terms of your suces, but about you're
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 16: talking about from more engineering perspective, but it remind him
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 16: and of course disorder and orders he was talking about.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: It reminded me of.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 16: A systems theory approach which was actually applied by somebody
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 16: looking into near death experiences, and this idea that in
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 16: near death experiences how the nerves central nervous system can
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 16: be kind of reconfigured, that there's a kind of a
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 16: release process happening. So he was more referring to engineering
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 16: and systems theory. So there's a release of of consciousness,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 16: but he was relating that parapsychologically to like cite this
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 16: like principle, so which can be this mediator of precognition
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 16: or telepicta whatever whatever it is, or or being able
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 16: to go to some other space. And so yeah, I
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 16: mean in that sense, it's not just this kind of
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 16: ritual sacrifices may not necessarily just be thought of as
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 16: like a symbolic thing, but quite a literally magical thing.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 16: But the neuroscientific aspect of that, the way that I
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 16: would see it as opposed to his kind of talking
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 16: about some redistribution of of PSI per se. Linking to
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 16: what Chavin was saying is is that in li psychedelic neuroscience,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 16: for instance, which will be very mapping onto similar processes
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 16: where there are these self networks like the default mode
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 16: network for instance, or other higher order networks are being dismantled,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 16: you have technically you have this release of so called
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 16: free energy. And so that's that's energy which isn't bound
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 16: up to do something like life conducive. It's so it's
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 16: being liberated because of course in this in this peak
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 16: psychedelic state, you know, you're not imminently here, your brain
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 16: isn't wide any longer in order to do whatever it
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 16: needs to be doing.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: It's it's being.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 16: Sacrificed for this kind of higher, higher function. And in
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 16: the release of that free energy you have entropy. You know,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 16: your brain is in this much more chaotic state and
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 16: you have this higher, higher entropy state chaos in the system,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 16: which again can kind of sort of linked to kind
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 16: of chaos magic kind of concept. And yeah, and so
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 16: obviously what you're saying about disorder and order. So in
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 16: this whole process, you're having greater disorder in the in.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 5: The central nervous system.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 16: But then ultimately it that it does act as a
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 16: recalibrating event because you then APPLDT me you have greater
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 16: greater order both in your psyche and how that then
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 16: reflects in your world at large as you're interfacing with
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 16: it afterward. And I think lastly, I just say that
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 16: the thing that showing said about the good and bad,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 16: I thought it was super interesting about the Davis is
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 16: being like this kind of image of a negative god
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 16: to whom you may sacrifice something. So with sacrifice, you
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 16: can do it either for the good or for ill
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 16: in a way, but it doesn't need to be as
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 16: kind of literal explicit as that. But there's a whole
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 16: set and setting thing with psychedelia, for instance, that there
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 16: will be a yeah, it may implicitly end up as
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 16: being something good or good or bad in a way
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 16: in terms of how the sacrifice, how the ego sacrifice,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 16: how the the flow of consciousness as it were, will
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 16: be redistributed, and for better or worse, for you offer
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 16: for others.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Pascal.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 4: That makes me think a lot about theogy and this
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 4: idea of I guess making a kind of sacrifice off
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 4: the body, like you say, and as our chist has
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: touched upon with bhutto this idea of making yourself a
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: vessel or expelling ordinary consciousness so that you're in a
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 4: state to receive things.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 15: Just a little bit after you've done.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, so that was great, Nick, Sorry,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 5: go on here.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 15: Mentioning the nervous system, even looking at that is even
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 15: another reason why even asked my prior question, because I've
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 15: even been studying the way the nervous system acts on
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 15: the you know, the herbs that we use in sacred architecture,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 15: A lot of them will start to change your vegas, nerve,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 15: your sympathetic you're lymphatic, to where we'll start to sometimes
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 15: focus you like he was, I think he was kind
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 15: of getting at getting you in a state of mind.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 15: But a lot of them also all start to slow
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 15: your system down. And it's just to me, it seems
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 15: a little bit coincidental that there's things being used that
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 15: is literally starting to slow your system down, and I
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 15: don't think a lot of people realize it, Like the
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 15: reverberation and a lot of sacred architecture that I'm recently
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 15: covering and putting out soon, the way the STI, the
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 15: decay time, all these things. When you'll make a tone,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 15: it will last eleven seconds, and between that and everything
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 15: else you're saying, the architecture now it's like starting to
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 15: actually affect your nervous system and we'll start to put
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 15: you in certain states. And it's just very weird to
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 15: me that it seems like a lot of these things
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 15: do aid with focus and slowing your system down. So
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 15: even what he said with that, it is just I
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 15: wanted to bring up another reason why brought up such
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 15: maybe a wild idea is because of you looking at
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 15: that stuff as well.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 5: Thank you Nick.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 4: It also makes me think, what about if those chaotic
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: states you're talking about are just part of a higher
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 4: cosmic order that we can't recognize the pattern of. So
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 4: for a moment, you're in that kind of cosmic wavelength,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 4: and that has the ability to recalibrate you as an individual.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 5: Because I guess the process of.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 4: Being born and developing an ego in the first place
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 4: is a calibrating process. We're coming from the great cosmic everything.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: We're coming from the all. We have to calibrate to
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 4: our place on Earth and our body and our other
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: important relationships so that we identify ourself. But in those
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 4: moments where we're outside of self, we are perhaps returning
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 4: to that kind of great all, or that great chaos,
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 4: And then when we return to self, we have this
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 4: sort of renewed thing I'm reminded of. I think I
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: might have mentioned it in the last session, my friend
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: Marie and Marigu telling me about someone who went into
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 4: the Telesterion, who was one of the misty and took
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 4: part in the mysteries of Alepsis, and how that idea
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: of meeting the gods is a very real thing and
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: seems to involve some sort of out of body experience,
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 4: some sort of nd where you are obliterated as an
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: individual and you become one with the goddess, with these
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 4: divine essences. And it was talked about that he was
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 4: blind when he went into the telesterion, and you talked
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 4: about that recalibration, that sort of chaos to organization, that
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 4: when he came out he could see, and who knows
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 4: whether that's true, whether it really happened, whether it was
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: a story, But the concept of that I think fits
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 4: in with this idea of going into you know, Nick
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 4: mentioned certain plants and the things that we eat or
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 4: the things that we drink affecting our consciousness, and I
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 4: think maybe what we you know, you are what you eat,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 4: you are what you drink. If you take certain drugs,
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 4: then the spirit, the essence of these substances are affecting
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 4: your psychology. Because we're less we're less autonomous than we
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 4: think we are. Really we're like colonies of bacteria. There
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 4: are so many things that affect our consciousness. We could
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 4: have toxoplasmagondhi for example, which I think i've probably just
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: got by spending so much time in Istanbul because now
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 4: I love cats and all these things that affect our
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 4: consciousness and our idea of our personality.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 5: Nick, is that are you satisfied?
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean it wasn't something I expected too many
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 15: people to jump on anyway.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: You Shuan, Yeah, I just wanted to refer back to
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: next question about the sacrifice of your body for something.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: It's actually a very interesting case to study that is
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: happening at the moment. I'm from Iran and this kind
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: of like war between the United States and Israel and
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: Iran and the mentality of Shia with martyrdom. The fact
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: that they basically this Islamic Iranian government, they know that
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: literally they are not gonna kind of like be bitten
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: or be defeated. They're not gonna win the war and
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: not be defeated. But at the same time, they haven't
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: been surrendered. So the fact that they know that every
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: one of them would be killed at the end of
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: this like what has happened, you know, from February twenty eighth,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: you know, with the Supreme Leader I was actually being
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: attacked and died, and and the narrative that's being circulated
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: as the myth between and the sham mentality that these
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: are martyrs, that these are sacrifices for again a change
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: of order that's going to happen. And I think in
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: the Sham mentality what's happening is that they say that,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: like the chaos gets to a point and there should
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: be so many martyrdoms and you know, sacrifice, like human
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: sacrifice for the higher goal that that the Messiah come
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: or not the Mahdi mode you know comes, you know,
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: to get the like disorder back to order. And I
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: think that, like working with psychedelics, my understanding is that
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: this idea of sacrificing the body doesn't necessarily need to happen,
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: like you don't need to destroy your biology to like
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: from a cosmological point of view, to really induce that
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: exchange with the higher cosmic order. I think that the self,
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: the ego, death, or anything that I think from my experience,
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: anything that contributes to a way of getting into a
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: higher state while we can keep the intention of having
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: the connection to that higher state. I think that's the
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: phenomenology of psychedelic or onerogenic experiences that as long as
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: you can get to that level of exchange between consciousness
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: and unconscious which is kind of like the work of
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: magic as well. And then you can keep that connection
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: to the higher consciousness that you're processing with intention and
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: in the moment. So this is kind of like any
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: practice of non duality that you can get to that
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: level of sacrifice, you know, through intention and make that
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: exchange happen, you know, with the higher order. So I
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: think my understanding is that what actually contributes to an exchange,
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: you know, in respect in return for the order in
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: the in the cosmos to happen, is our attention when
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: we can amplify it, not to higher order, you know,
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: that's what happening again with the psychedelic or energenic experiences.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, that's the the
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: intention and attention that you're putting, you know, as an
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: exchange with the uh uh, with the higher order. Not
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: that comes through you know. Let's say, what what's called
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: sacri sacrifice of the ego or sacrifice of the body.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 4: Thank you showing really good points, really interesting, and I
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 4: just wanted to triangulate because I can see Brandon's got
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 4: his hand up there with Brandon and our chistis because
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 4: our kist is mentioned, and Brandon mentioned this idea of
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 4: attention and this idea of intentionality and our kiss diis
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 4: mentioned about how a big part of it is intentionally
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 4: giving your attention to something rather than Brandon mentioned, you're
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 4: just pouring your attention into this black mirror, and you're
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 4: not intentionally or consciously entering into a covenant with the
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 4: divine by doing that. But when you're intentionally giving your attention,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 4: it does feel like a completely different thing. Because, you know,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 4: one thing I really noticed working in schools is I
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 4: was talking to a friend earlier about how, you know,
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 4: we're probably the last generation that grew up without the Internet,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 4: without these black mirrors at our disposal, and I developed
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 4: in that culture of never having anything like that, of
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 4: being in the world without these tools for navigation, without
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 4: these tools for constant communication, And now there are all
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 4: these kind of stuff showing that children feel terror when
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 4: they're split from their phones. It's almost like having a
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 4: damon cut away from them. They're actually scared to be
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 4: in the world without this tool for communication that you know,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 4: and we know that people that run these companies don't
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 4: let their kids go on them. So I wonder if
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 4: Brandon and our kisses. We could talk about that a
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 4: little bit.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 13: Just immediately to respond to that. It's almost like we're
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 13: if you don't intentionally give your attention to this like
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 13: sacrificial process. Let's say we're also entering into a kind
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 13: of transhumanism, because then the child is accidentally becoming the
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 13: transhuman that is like already syncd up with technology, and
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 13: even if it's not inside their body yet yet, it
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 13: will be soon. It's they're still so symbiolartically connected with
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 13: the smartphone or whatever, the computer, the tablet, and so
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 13: these transformations are happening anyway without any sort of conscious,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 13: meaningful engagement with it. This reciprocity with the cosmos, with
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 13: the living beings of the cosmos, with the higher spirits,
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 13: with the like technology this is a smartphones things just
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 13: completely flattened and reduce your humanity. It's like something I
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 13: see that, like what's happening is that we are becoming
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 13: something else, but that we're not necessarily many of us
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 13: in control or even trying to consciously become something else.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 13: Maybe as like esotericists or magicians of various types, we
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 13: are more implicated in that process. But when I see
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 13: ordinary people just being changed by their engagement with technology
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 13: into like the next iteration, I like getting stupid, getting
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 13: less able to hold a thought, or less vocabulary. Everything
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 13: diminishes because we become so dependent on it. I think
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 13: that's like, that's kind of what I was one of
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 13: the things I was thinking about in terms of becoming
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 13: part of a greater sacrifice that we're not actually intentionally
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 13: participating in, but we are, you know, being sacrificed for
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 13: for the next like the tech bros Wants us to
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 13: become the next thing.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 4: I was listening to something yesterday online, a big podcast.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 5: It was really good. I think.
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 4: Robert Forte shared it, and it was about how it's
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 4: actually written into the plans for a lot of these platforms,
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 4: that social media actually does start to change our biology,
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 4: our physical form, and not even our you know, mental capabilities.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 4: But it certainly is having an impact there. Where you
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 4: think about children now are teached, are teached, are being
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 4: taught how to do coding and stuff in school rather
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 4: than learn about humanities, learn about culture, learn about beauty,
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 4: learn about how to have good relationships. I think that
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 4: it's really important to look at what children are being
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 4: taught in school, because that's where the agenda is first
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 4: sort of sown into what kind of people the powers
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 4: that the want to see in the world, which are
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 4: just empty consumers who can be easily controlled and manipulated
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 4: with the amazing skills that advertising and politics and all
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 4: this kind of have at their disposal these days.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 13: Yeah, I just wanted to add as well that it's
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 13: this full light as well, because it's literally disrupting our
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 13: circadian rhythms and our creations with the wider cosmos. So
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 13: our penal gland is all the time like in concert
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 13: with the entire you know, cosmos, and not just sunlight,
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 13: but all the light, and it's telling us and giving
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 13: our body signals about how to respond and how to
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 13: be in the world. And this is just automatic, unconscious,
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 13: this is what the body does. But as soon as
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 13: you're like bringing this artificial light and all this hyper
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 13: stimulation into like your face, is completely disrupting our relationship
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 13: with the world, with the cosmos, with all beings. And
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 13: I think that's that's where I see the danger of
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 13: this sort of like unwittingly being sacrificed for other people's
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 13: purposes and darker agendas. And yeah, so we have to
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 13: sort of consciously sort of step back from this to
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 13: not participate in that. And again, I just don't know
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 13: how how you stop other people, you know, plunging into it.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 13: You can't, but you have to be like that point
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 13: of calm.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 4: Well, I think I'm so glad you brought that up,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 4: because I wrote a book about the history and culture
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 4: of dreaming, and I think the first thing to be
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 4: sacrificed is dreams, because circadian rhythms are so disrupted by
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 4: this false light, and dreams are like self illuminated.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 5: Landscapes.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 4: So if I find in my own work and in
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 4: talking to other people about dreams, that dreams are diminishing,
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 4: and that has been an actual evolution of the human being,
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 4: that dreams have diminished as a result of our dependence
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 4: upon technology. And it's taken years to see how this
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 4: has happened. But our attachment to our phones and our
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 4: attachment to this fake like and this inability to enter
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 4: into the circadian cycles that we are naturally wired to
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 4: is already showed is that this plan is working.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 5: Thanks with this, Brandon, Yeah, and nice.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 12: You guys hit on so many key things there, and
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 12: I think it's so important that we all understand this
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 12: where we're coming from, because we can be moments of
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 12: light for a world that has fallen. Right, we are
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 12: in Malcouth, we are in the Kingdom, which means we
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 12: connect ourselves to the klipthotic world the husks, and to
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 12: get it to more to the dystopian science fiction terminology,
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 12: we are laiden amongst non playable characters. And so it's like,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 12: while we're walking in the world, there are NPCs everywhere,
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 12: which goes to the term that Elkistis was talking about
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 12: with the transhumanist agenda, that we're completely laden in ourselves upon,
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 12: with the elite, parasitic techno oligarchs that I like to
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 12: dean being the dark sorcerers who we are kind of
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 12: up against in this cosmic Manichean kind of drama that
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 12: is unfolding at all times. And so kind of what
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 12: you're saying, Sarah in your work as well is how
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 12: important dreams are and why that is is because of
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 12: that is what connects us to the higher realms. We
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 12: must cross the thirty second path from Malcouth into Ysad,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 12: into the Moon, into the phantasmagoric imaginal realms. And I
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 12: think what's so important is that the intentional mind, our
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 12: intentionalities towards the phenomenological experience that we're trying to bring back,
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 12: instead of being separated. So what happened was in the
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 12: Enlightenment period with Cartesianism, is that they separated body and mind.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 12: And is fantastic as that was, because we have the
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 12: whole technological revolution that we're in. What it also did
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 12: was it then also separated everything that was the embodied experience.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 12: And so what I think is really important is that
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 12: then what happened is that instead of sacrificing the lower desires,
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 12: kind of like what Peter talks about in his work
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 12: is that we, you know, we must sacrifice you know,
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 12: or you know, maybe just nick the shoulder of the
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 12: bowl instead of completely sacrificing the bull. But we must
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 12: have an understanding that we we sit upon the lower
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 12: desires because we need those to run the robot that
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 12: goes upon and works and feeds and has a family
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 12: and does these things. But through the great work, we
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 12: are ascending or transcending the normal, profane world to the
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 12: higher sacred world. Going back to what sacrifice you know
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 12: seems to mean with the sacrificium of the Latin terminology,
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 12: and so it's like the phones and the cosmic drama
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 12: that's unfolding in the world. This can be seen as
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 12: the grand sacrifice of all of our intention and awareness
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 12: and everything that's going on. And it could also be
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 12: seen because I think what's so important is what I
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 12: learned from Peter is that what we're trying to do
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 12: is we're trying to get They're trying to the dark sources,
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 12: are trying to stick us within the grand dualist dualism,
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 12: which is then what we're trying to merge back together
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 12: with the embodied phenomenological experience. So we're not dark, you know,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 12: being taken over by dark sorcerers, and so we can
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 12: actually have a spirit and a soul instead of being
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 12: a transhumanist NPC type of character.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 8: And what is it that does that well?
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 12: I really like it when Alkesty talks about her bhuto, right,
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 12: it's that grand cosmic fire dance, that embodied experience where
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 12: in my own practice, I'm you know, au I like
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 12: kung fu, right, So I'm a martial artist, and so
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 12: I've had to sacrifice a lot and bring to the
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 12: fire all of my lower drives, lower desires than the
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 12: part of me that can't just do a horse stance
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 12: for twenty minutes. And so it's like, what does that mean? Well,
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 12: I must root myself into the earth, while like in
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 12: my Taichi practice, lift my my bai hua, lift my
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 12: higher mind into the heavens. Thus, in the Daoist terminology,
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 12: I become the center of the heaven and the earth.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 12: And I think with these types of conversations and with
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 12: everyone doing their grand work and retrying to connect us
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 12: to the dream realm, we can bring people from the
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 12: unintentional unaware, you know, take away the phones because you're
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 12: completely right. And what I think we forget is that
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 12: the blue light is telling us at all times that
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 12: it's noon out. Not only is it doing that, it
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 12: brings us to the idea that mk ultra is real,
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 12: you know, as in is real right.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 8: As the idea is that one.
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 12: What's going on is it's like it's they use the
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 12: studies about Las Vegas, where in Las Vegas they use
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 12: blue light everywhere because what it does is it sticks
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 12: people into their lymphatic system and drives high levels of cortisol,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 12: thus giving you dopamine and serotonin dumps. And as that's happening,
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 12: you are easier to control, and if you are easier
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 12: to control you then don't have a spirit or soul
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 12: in your body guiding you to the highest.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 8: Realms, but bringing you into the lowest.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 12: Thus you become like Odysseus entering into the lotus eaters.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 12: You become somebody who is just trying to get that
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 12: continual dopamine fix instead of doing the mystical practices of
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 12: yoga and magic, which I think you kind of need
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 12: both to be able to be your hero on the journey.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 12: So you can not become a sacrifice for the great
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 12: wars as we learn from orwell war as peace. The
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 12: wars will continue to go as long as everyone is
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 12: not doing their own great work, and so I could
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 12: continue to talk about that, but that's just one of
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 12: those things that's really fascinating, is that in this transhumanist
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 12: world which we're moving.
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 8: Into, it's not going away.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 12: And so it's one of those things where we have
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 12: to learn the lingo and the modern myths of our
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 12: age so we can talk to everybody around us as
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 12: we integrate the ancient world views of magic, myth and
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 12: meaning and try to become re embodied figures where we're
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 12: not being controlled by the blue light in our lower drives.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 12: And so that's kind of how we, I think, bring
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 12: the intentional experience back into the conscious world.
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 5: Right, that's great. Brandon thinks.
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 4: That I just mentioned the interview that I saw yesterday
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 4: that was about this idea of the tech bros including
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 4: this in that plan, that they're actually changing our biology
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 4: so we are more easy to control. It was by
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 4: a guy called James Corbett, and he ended it on
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 4: a very positive note I thought, which was I definitely
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 4: recommend watching it. I can share the link with anyone
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 4: who's interested. But he just talks about what they want
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 4: is your humanity, and if you don't give it to them,
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 4: they have no power. So the most important thing we
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 4: can do is retain our humanity. And one thing I
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 4: noticed because I spend a lot of time in Istanbor.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 4: You know, I've lived part time in Greece and in
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 4: istan Bor in particular, but everywhere I think, I'm noticing
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 4: people being nicer to each other.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 5: Because, like you say, the veil is falling.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 4: We are seeing that there's a it's syop nested within SIOP,
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 4: nested within siop. And actually it's all becoming quite clear
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 4: now to a lot of people more than the sort
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 4: of select little group of conspiracy theorists. And when the
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 4: veil falls, when we have this kind of apocalypsis, I
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 4: think it's going to bring about a renaissance of humanity,
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 4: and that we'll be kinder and nicer to each other
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 4: and look each other in the eye and hanging out
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 4: in person and singing a king art is going to
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 4: be like a new exciting novel, fun thing to do
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 4: that everyone wants to do, and everyone's like, oh my god,
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 4: have you heard of making music properly?
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 5: Of you heard of drawing? Is great? So so yeah,
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 5: thank you very much, Brandon Peter.
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 6: Yeah, this is completely tangential. But perhaps to next point
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 6: about the use of sound, I'll just give you a
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 6: quick example. I I joined in. I don't know quite
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 6: how to describe it. An event with a singer. Tom
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 6: Kenyon has this multi octave voice, and during the course
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 6: of this this wonderful ethereal singing that he does on
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 6: the stage, I saw quite distinctly the formation of half
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 6: a dozen or so very tall columns of light. Okay,
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 6: and after a while they kind of drifted off the
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 6: apron and up through the audience and disappeared so bizarre event.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 6: But at the end of this seance, was it, I
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 6: don't know quite what. Somebody in the audience asked him,
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 6: you know these hathors that you're talking about, when they manifest,
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 6: how do they look? And he said, well, the tall
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 6: columns of light, which is exactly what I saw over there.
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 6: But the curious thing now is that nobody I was
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 6: with saw them, okay, And that led me to ask
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 6: the questions why should higher order or higher dimensional beings
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 6: make their presence known to Sam and not to others?
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 9: Okay?
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 6: So there's a question there that we we have to
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 6: ask ourselves about our own orientation to reality. And so
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 6: I'll leave it at that. But what I saw was
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 6: clear and distinct and was verified by Tom Kenyon himself,
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 6: and it has a consistent philosophy and account around these beings,
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 6: which I'm not a party to. I mean, I haven't
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 6: followed it up, but I always found it curious that
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 6: they should have made themselves visible to myself and not
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 6: to others. And I think there's something in there that
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 6: we need to get to the bottom two And perhaps
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 6: next week when we talk about entities, perhaps that that'll
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 6: be part of that conversation.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 5: Right, Thank you, Peter, You're welcome.
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 4: So we're getting we're getting to have you know, spent
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 4: two hours on the call now, So does anyone have
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 4: any little wrapping up thoughts I'd like to share myles.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 10: I wanted to just a JD. Is it does cosmology
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 10: in austrology?
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 8: Yeah?
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean I don't know much about astrology other
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 10: than from the Yugo system point of view, according to
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 10: Bibludesh Mishro or coming out of Calli Yugo, whether you
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 10: use the Yoga Nanda and tree you textuar model, maybe
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 10: maybe it happened a little earlier. But and then if
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 10: you're using sidereal, we're coming out of pissin and heading
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 10: into aquarium. So let's just say the at least two models,
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 10: cosmological models are suggesting that we're in a death rebirth phase.
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 10: So let's imagine that as above so below are archetypally
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 10: inside each human consciousness or psyche. There is this push
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 10: towards death and rebirth, whether we're conscious of it or not.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 10: And so everybody on the line has their own practice
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 10: and in their own way is working with that archetype.
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 10: I mean, working consciously with trying to voluntarily surrender something
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 10: and break through into a more expansive or more compassionate
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 10: or higher order. We've used the word order and chaos,
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 10: We've used compassion and retraction, you know, whatever the dichotomy
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 10: might be. But it seems to me that broadly speaking,
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 10: you know, most of the planet is still very much asleep,
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 10: and so then the impulse that is being activated because
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 10: of the cosmological sea change may may cause people to
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 10: have a death wish in the most rudinventtory way, just
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 10: the most force way, most dense way. I'm thinking you
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 10: use the word apocalypsis, and you know that's files or
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 10: is a kind of apocalypsis, like just how rampant some
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 10: of the most primitive evil seditious, sadistic, and how rife
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 10: and widespread this kind of death wish and this sort
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 10: of instinctual you know, death wish is. So you know,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 10: and I can't remember who it was it made. It
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 10: might have been Nick, who was very much just put
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 10: they put it out there. It seemed that at the
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 10: time has kind of left field, like you know, making
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 10: an actual sacrifice. Maybe maybe that's what's happening, is that
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 10: there is an actual sacrifice happening in the in the world,
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 10: but it's just so unconscious. And so there were a
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 10: couple of examples of this, and one of them was
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 10: in Iran with the sort of martyrdom as one example.
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 10: The sacrifice of actual children in these sort of Epstein
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 10: cults sort of is another. The more widespread one of
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 10: sacrificing our kids. Attention to the devices is another. And
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 10: this is in stark contrast to all these mystical traditions
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 10: that are suggesting how to work with that impulse in
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 10: a more symbolic way. So you have this juxtaposition between
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 10: a symbolic processing voluntary death. You have all that impulse
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 10: versus the one that is happening or being born out
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 10: in the most unconscious and destructive way. So I wanted
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 10: to just throw that out there to see if people
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 10: have any thoughts about that, to kind of conclude or
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 10: to wrap up.
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Miles, anyone want to say anything to that, I.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: Was just gonna I will try to keep it brief.
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: I think that in a lot of different ways of
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: timing thing, and we don't necessarily require them to know
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 3: that this odd times and something is very intense about
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 3: what's going on right now, and it's weird. It's interesting
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 3: because a lot of times, within the ways that could
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 3: be interpreted within spiritual traditions that pay attention to time,
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 3: is that it also is right for particular kinds of
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 3: progress to occur. So it's like the darkest, weirdest moment
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 3: is also the moment where and some use this as
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 3: a justification for why tantent practice is so powerful now
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: because it's the time where transformation of our attachments or
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 3: the way that we engage with the material world, having
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 3: strayed so far from it, it's important, you know, like
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 3: a holy material if you will discovering these things now
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 3: will have like the broadest and most powerful impact. And
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because we circled around lots of
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 3: different ideas, some which are why sacrifice would maybe be
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 3: something that we're considering within our various works that we
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 3: are doing. So like there was a lot of attention
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 3: like Peter gave. Peter Gray gave the example of how
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 3: aware he was whenever he was offering the wild Violet
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 3: and the various ongoings that it's kind of wrapped up
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 3: inside of. So I think for me, at least, like
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 3: if there's a practice in which we're engaged. And it's
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 3: why I would say it may seem like a cop out,
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 3: but it's like, if we are engaged in either overt
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 3: or subtle or symbolic or literal sacrifice, that there's something
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 3: that's pushing us towards right relation, you know. So whatever
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 3: that might mean for us, how we framed and orders
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 3: or chaos and or higher realms, lower realms, whatever, you know,
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 3: I think it's about putting things better into right relation.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 3: And it seemed like the other one is something I've
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 3: had a conversation with some people here about is the
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 3: way that our erotic our eros is really hijacked by
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 3: a lot of the things that draw our attention these moments,
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 3: you know, so be that like the media cycle, or
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 3: our engagement with dating apps or whatever it might be,
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 3: you know, gaming on your phone or whatever it could be.
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 3: I do think this is a level to which we
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 3: are being kind of forced into scenarios where we're sacrificing
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 3: our eras over to something else where. It would be
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 3: much better to put it in a place that I
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 3: think cultivates right relation, like creative capacity and bringing forward
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 3: something that is generative and reminds us of how we're
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 3: you know, what is possible rather than being caught and
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 3: all that. So, yeah, it was an interesting conversation. I
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 3: was lovely to hear everybody starts and see where it
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 3: all went.
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much. J D.
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think as well about this idea of unintentionally
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 4: giving your attention to something and consciously creating is very different.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 4: It's it does feel a bit like we're in a
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 4: death cult right now. And share we mentioned this idea
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 4: of martyrdom and this, you know, I talked recently about,
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 4: you know, Steiner's idea of ari Man rising up against Lucifer,
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 4: and there are these two extremes in the third way
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 4: is the.
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 5: Consciousness of Christ.
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 4: And there should be some other third way found because
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 4: it seems like amongst those who are happy to be martyred,
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 4: who are so invested in this, in this idea of
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 4: spirit and the afterlife is so appealing. And then on
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 4: the other side you got tech bros who are utterly,
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 4: utterly terrified of dying and are trying to live forever
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 4: and are injecting fecal matter, and every single moment of
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 4: their day is spent in some you know, breathing tube
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 4: or taking a thousand supplements every morning, you know, like
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 4: the terror of death and the complete desire to die
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 4: are seemed to be like battling it out right.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 12: Now, I have a funny funny thing to say to that.
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 12: My funny thing to say to that is, actually I
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 12: have been aligo and I actually injected.
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 8: I did gut floral transplant. Interesting enough, I Brian Johnson
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 8: is crazy. So I completely agree with you, Jasarah.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 12: But I will say the fecal matter transplant does work.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 12: My hair almost completely gandolfed within a three month period
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 12: and it did help with that. However, that is something
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 12: that is going on where they are trying to stop
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 12: themselves from dying, and I think it is because of
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 12: this level of being afraid of karma, and as Joseph
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 12: Campbell's states, they're also they've mistaken the symbol for the
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 12: little representation of what the symbol represents, and so this
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 12: level of immortality has been this kind of Faustian bargain
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 12: that we've we have as a collective, have mistaken the
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 12: menu for the meal or the map for the territory.
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 8: This, you know, Alfred.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 12: Korzinski's general semantics is really important, and I feel like
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 12: if these types of ideals were understood in the collective
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 12: zeitgeist all a lot better, which is something I'm trying
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 12: to do with my channel, is trying to get people
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 12: to understand different levels of abstraction from the concrete exp
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 12: experience all the way up into things like orwelling in
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 12: wars peace is that we could really have a lot
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 12: less argumentation and really move ourselves to this higher level
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 12: of like a transcendent experience and magic being everywhere all
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 12: at once. And I will state also how that idea
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 12: of taking control of your intentional awareness, I think is
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 12: why we are all trying to have people understand that
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 12: magic and the embodied practice are what help fine tune
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 12: the nervous system so we can tap into the parasympathetic
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 12: from the sympathetic nervous system and calm the limbic structures.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 12: Which is kind of what Nick was saying with the herbs,
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 12: you know, talking about sound and all these things. Is
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 12: that like when the more I meditate, the more I
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 12: do kung fu, and the more I read classical literature
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 12: and have my own ritual practice and intentional with my
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 12: with my girlfriend, all of a sudden, everything I'm you know,
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 12: as we all are trying to be creators and trying
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 12: to get our.
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 8: Stuff out there.
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 12: It's like I have to have the little black box,
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 12: you know, we have to have these discussions. The globalized
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 12: world isn't going away. But when we do the silence
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 12: and we finally adapt ourselves to the great mysteries, we
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 12: then can have the intentional awareness of using these things
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 12: with conscious agency. Instead of being the NPCs or you know,
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 12: the robots, or just the slaves that are you know that,
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 12: you know, the master slaved dichotomy that Nitzscha talks about.
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 12: We can then become our own uber manches, which is
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 12: then why that embodied practice is so important, because things
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 12: like an autoimmune disease are also the symptoms of everything
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 12: we're talking about.
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 8: Here me sacrificing.
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 12: My lower you know, my higher desires for my lower
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 12: ones were all of a sudden, I just ate too
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 12: much sugar as my youth, and all of a sudden,
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 12: stressful moments happen, and all of a sudden epigenetics kicks in,
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 12: and then we have these things that we can't figure
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 12: out why they're happening. Why is my immune system attacking itself? Well,
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 12: as we see in the republic, as above, so below,
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 12: as within, so without as so the state goes, so
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 12: does the individual. Well, if the individual continues to be sick,
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 12: so will the state. And if the state continues to
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 12: be sick, so will the individual. So it always go
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 12: back to everything. And I'm saying, whatever kung fu is
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 12: for you, guys, I keep telling everybody in my audience
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 12: and every moment I can get it's do magic and
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 12: train kung fu.
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I think one of the most powerful magics
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 4: is tidy in your room.
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 5: Is that act of order.
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 4: And I feel like, you know, if there's something wrong,
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 4: if there's something I want to happen, I tidy my room.
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 4: That's my magic.
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 5: Siri. Yeah.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 9: I think actually this has a lot to do without
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 9: perception of time, this dichotomy between the Luciferian and the Ironman, right,
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 9: it's a it's an attachment to a future that hasn't happened,
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 9: or it's an attachment to a past that you're trying
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 9: to cling onto. So if we start to mend this
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 9: perception of linear time, you know, this idea of their
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 9: their being a back in and forth and come back
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 9: to presence, I think that's really what it is you know,
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 9: we are sacrificing presents for appearance all the time. That's
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 9: what's happening. And if if we instead try to start
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 9: sacrificing appearance the appearance of things for real presence and
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 9: come into real experience, Like so many people have talked
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 9: about the notion of embodiment of presence, you're through ritual,
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 9: through meditation, so many of the of the keys to
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 9: how this is going to happen for humanity, I think
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 9: is through that the with and the lineages that have
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 9: been preserved only an esoteric practices, only on the fringes
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 9: really of things, because it's the rejected knowledge, it's the
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 9: rejected traditions that are actually going to help us come
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 9: back to that presence and that you know, there've been
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 9: the wisdom keepers of what we need now in order
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 9: to kind of revivify society. So yeah, I think that's
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 9: kind of the central pillar presence.
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 4: I love the word revivifi. I'm glad to end our
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 4: session with that word. So I hope that you will
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 4: have very sweet dreams this evening. And thank you so
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 4: much for coming along. I really really enjoyed this conversation,
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 4: so it was great, and I'm so glad that you
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 4: were all able to take part and see you next
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 4: week for entities and then after entities we're going to
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 4: do syops me and Pascal.
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 5: I've been plotting some chats. So thank you so much everyone,
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 5: and hopefully see you again next time.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 10: Thank you, Sarah, Thanks Sarah, Thanks everybody was lovely.
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 1: Close your eyes, look into the darkness, find the blazing star,
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 1: focus on it. They become the eclipse. Don't feel that
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 1: the show will be doing.
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 9: And guess
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 3: You is sure