Latest / Totally Normal Folks / Episode 008 - The Kebaya Resurgence, Historical Gossip, and The Most Intelligent Conversations We've Ever Had (feat. Alma Al Farisi)

Transcript

Episode 008 - The Kebaya Resurgence, Historical Gossip, and The Most Intelligent Conversations We've Ever Had (feat. Alma Al Farisi) · Totally Normal Folks

• 0:00
  That's recording too now, yeah. Yep.
• 0:02
  That's good. Hold on, I need to now we're.
• 0:05
  Just going to sit here and go. Oh my.
• 0:07
  Hello. Hour and a half.
• 0:08
  Do you guys ever get your English so good?
• 0:10
  Yeah. All the time all.
• 0:11
  The time like when all the. Time, all the time when I went.
• 0:14
  To like, you know, white countries or if I met or if I
• 0:18
  meet white people, they'd be like, why do you sound like an
• 0:20
  American? Dude, I get that so much.
• 0:22
  I meet white people. Why, why, why do you have I I I
• 0:25
  had this one one time where like I was talking with this is after
• 0:29
  the comedy club thing and one of the lady comedians there told me
• 0:34
  like, why do you have an American accent?
• 0:36
  Speak normally, speak normally. And I was like.
• 0:38
  Did he actually say? Normally.
• 0:40
  Who, who? Who?
• 0:40
  Who said this? Oh my.
• 0:42
  No, no. Hey.
• 0:42
  It was just a comic. She's not she.
• 0:43
  She didn't mean anything by it. She was just riffing.
• 0:45
  But like, yeah, why do you have an American accent?
• 0:47
  Do you just speak normal but drop the accent?
• 0:50
  I was like. No accent.
• 0:51
  Hilarious. This is how it's up I.
• 0:52
  Actually for a second tried to drop the accent my brain shorts.
• 0:56
  Let's let's look at a try though.
• 0:57
  How? How would you How would you
• 0:59
  sound like if you dropped the accent?
• 1:01
  If I dropped the accent, go on. No, no.
• 1:02
  If if I want to speak like Indonesian English with an
• 1:05
  Indonesian accent, it's like I'm playing a character, you know?
• 1:08
  What I mean, yeah, I got. What you mean?
• 1:09
  Yeah, I'm. I'm exaggerating because it's
• 1:12
  just how I sound in English. It's like you put on the accent
• 1:14
  to sound. More.
• 1:16
  Yeah. Like it's not a natural thing,
• 1:18
  you know? Yeah.
• 1:18
  Is that how it was with you as well?
• 1:20
  Sometimes, like when I speak too fast in English, people, people
• 1:24
  don't like, you know, take it in.
• 1:26
  Yeah. So you kind of have to either
• 1:28
  slow down or you Madok Madok in. Yeah.
• 1:31
  They kind of like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:33
  That's, that's an interesting thing.
• 1:35
  But then at the same time, there are also like you guys,
• 1:40
  especially in Jakarta, I think a lot of the young kids now.
• 1:43
  The young kids. The young kids like speak
• 1:46
  English so fluently it's like Yoda better speak English than
• 1:52
  Indonesian. But that's not good either.
• 1:55
  So we should also speak Indonesian.
• 1:57
  Fuck Indonesian, I hate the language.
• 2:00
  We're. Just tuning in.
• 2:07
  That's where I'm going to cut it in the edit.
• 2:10
  Welcome. Wait, wait.
• 2:16
  No, go ahead. You're good.
• 2:17
  You're good. OK, cool.
• 2:17
  That's. Good.
• 2:18
  Welcome to the 8th episode of Totally Normal Folks.
• 2:23
  And we are here on this beautiful day.
• 2:26
  And today, we are joined by Alma.
• 2:30
  Hello. Yeah.
• 2:31
  Hello, Alma. Hello.
• 2:33
  At Alma. Hello.
• 2:34
  At Alma. Hello.
• 2:35
  Yeah. Would you like to like introduce
• 2:36
  yourself a bit maybe? Sure.
• 2:39
  I'm Alma. Hello and.
• 2:42
  That's. Where it came from exactly?
• 2:44
  I'm a content creator at TikTok and I've also started posting on
• 2:48
  Instagram. And yeah, I talk about a lot of
• 2:51
  history. Woman's history, Textile
• 2:53
  history, Indonesian history in general history you might have
• 2:56
  missed in your classrooms or might have never been taught.
• 3:00
  So oh, what kind of history that has never been taught before.
• 3:04
  Perhaps histories that weren't allowed to be taught, and we
• 3:08
  have a lot of that in Indonesia. We.
• 3:10
  Have so much of that really. Like, did you know I thought you
• 3:13
  were taking a great country? What?
• 3:16
  Hitler got it. Yeah, exactly.
• 3:18
  Bro. Wait here, are we gonna get
• 3:19
  demonetized for mentioning Hitler?
• 3:20
  We might no no believe that. Yeah, Oh no, All the money that
• 3:25
  we. All the money that we could have
• 3:26
  I. Know all the money.
• 3:28
  We can. From our 400 subscribers.
• 3:30
  Do we clap already for the thing?
• 3:32
  No. We haven't, actually.
• 3:33
  That's so. Funny, how do we do you wanna
• 3:35
  clap? We can just clap in.
• 3:36
  Retrospect. OK, we can clap in retrospect.
• 3:38
  Hang on, I don't. Know cool?
• 3:44
  OK, cool. Yay.
• 3:44
  Anyways, sorry for that interruption.
• 3:47
  Production. Production is fun.
• 3:49
  Yeah. Indeed.
• 3:49
  Yeah. So, yeah, we, well, initially it
• 3:54
  was my idea to like bring you on here because I like ran into
• 3:58
  your content on TikTok about maybe like at the end of last
• 4:02
  year and being like, wow, these are like very, very like deep
• 4:07
  and like well researched takes that you had.
• 4:11
  Yeah. And also, yeah.
• 4:14
  So like, I just want to start with that.
• 4:15
  Like, what is it? How did you get into, like,
• 4:18
  content creating, but like, specifically like content
• 4:21
  creating about like, you know, the history stuff and then,
• 4:24
  like, I know you talk a lot about, like, kabaya, traditional
• 4:27
  dress and also like women's history.
• 4:29
  Yeah. How did you get into that?
• 4:31
  Yeah, I think for TikTok in general, I started playing
• 4:35
  around with it because I think around after the pandemic, I was
• 4:39
  working in a little really boutique small digital agency.
• 4:44
  And that was a time when a lot of the brands wanted to go into
• 4:47
  TikTok and figure it out. And so as I was a strategist at
• 4:50
  the time, so they kind of like fed me to the wolves to figure a
• 4:53
  TikTok. Out right.
• 4:54
  Yeah, they're like, what is an algorithm?
• 4:57
  This. Is an early TikTok.
• 4:58
  Early. Early.
• 4:59
  Yeah. Wow, Wow.
• 5:00
  Yeah. And so I that out and the thing
• 5:04
  about TikTok, it's all about storytelling, right?
• 5:06
  It's all about the three second hook or whatever.
• 5:09
  Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to talk about
• 5:12
  things that I wanted to care about, things that was easy to
• 5:16
  tell a story about. And I've always loved history
• 5:20
  anyway, but Indonesian history is was actually something that I
• 5:24
  didn't know a lot about because I spent a lot of time growing up
• 5:27
  in the States and outside of Indonesia.
• 5:29
  So it was something of a relearning as well.
• 5:33
  And unfortunately, if you like, look up a lot of Indonesian
• 5:37
  history, whether it be from like the news or the mass media or
• 5:42
  perhaps some publications from within Indonesia, there is a
• 5:48
  certain one story. But then once I deep dive a lot
• 5:52
  more, there's a lot of international academics, people
• 5:56
  who have studied Indonesia as outsiders, these outside Povs, I
• 6:01
  started to realize that, wait, there's like so many more sides
• 6:08
  of the stories that we've been fed as kids, as, you know, part
• 6:12
  of the public education system. Yeah, or just not the official
• 6:15
  history. Exactly.
• 6:16
  And they have. That up now they do history.
• 6:18
  Officials. Officials.
• 6:20
  Don't get me started on that. We are.
• 6:23
  We are going, don't you worry. Yeah.
• 6:28
  Sure. No.
• 6:29
  Worries by the way, if you want to move the mic around as well,
• 6:32
  like feel free. OK.
• 6:33
  Yeah, you. Said.
• 6:34
  You you grew up in the States. Yes, I did.
• 6:37
  I grew up mostly in the States. Where exactly?
• 6:40
  I did my elementary school mostly in New York, OK in Queens
• 6:45
  and then high school in Virginia in the DMV area.
• 6:52
  They call it the DC Maryland area.
• 6:54
  And then I went to College in Philadelphia.
• 6:57
  Here's a question. East Coast girl, let's go east.
• 6:59
  Coast. West Coast area.
• 7:02
  He's always all the way in. Pittsburgh.
• 7:05
  Yes, Pennsylvania. We all have like weird
• 7:08
  commonalities. We all used to live or had, you
• 7:11
  know, like personal ties to, to the United.
• 7:14
  States yeah, yeah. Really.
• 7:16
  Hence the access, yeah. I'm, I'm, I was, I was raised in
• 7:19
  Texas, in Houston. Hello you called.
• 7:24
  Howdy, howdy. Howdy, howdy.
• 7:30
  Howdy. OK, lone state.
• 7:32
  Lone state baby. That's why I have very backwards
• 7:34
  views on. Women's.
• 7:35
  Society. Yeah.
• 7:37
  Are you the conservative in this podcast?
• 7:39
  I'm the conservative too. I I I don't think anyone should
• 7:44
  have the right. No one to live.
• 7:48
  That's a very bold stance to have.
• 7:50
  I I. That's what they teach you there
• 7:52
  up and you know. You know, you know what you do.
• 7:53
  You want to know who my hero is? Oh no, who?
• 7:55
  Do you want to know who my hero is?
• 7:56
  Is that please? Please tell us.
• 7:58
  Lockheed Martin. Oh wow.
• 8:00
  The company? Do you own stocks?
• 8:02
  I can hear the bald eagles. Yeah.
• 8:08
  So how, Yeah. How did you like, did you?
• 8:12
  So were you like just like sort of experimenting with different
• 8:15
  like types of contents and then like, oh, like the one about
• 8:19
  like fashion history, like found traction or were you like, was
• 8:22
  that something that you already like?
• 8:23
  Oh, that's the thing that I'm going to do.
• 8:25
  Yeah, At first, you know, it was like a lot of dancing, a lot of
• 8:29
  like doing all of the sounds and TikTok and stuff like that.
• 8:34
  But then I realized that like, it's actually The thing is like
• 8:38
  Indonesian history is sometimes too good to be true, like.
• 8:42
  No, too good to be. True.
• 8:44
  I mean look at Lin Manuel Miranda and Hamilton and like
• 8:48
  his amazing, you know, Hollywood, not Hollywood
• 8:51
  Broadway runway. And we have definitely our own
• 8:55
  Hamilton. So who do you think loves women?
• 9:03
  Wait a second, I'm. So out of touch with the.
• 9:07
  The main man. The the first man.
• 9:12
  Yeah, lover of women. Yeah, and so it's like those
• 9:15
  types of stories that are actually it's just like tea.
• 9:18
  It's like, yeah, going and gossip, talking about gossip
• 9:22
  with the girls. And it's like, Oh my gosh, did
• 9:25
  you know that that one guy who like is the number the second
• 9:29
  man, you know, the vice president, he actually married
• 9:32
  his ex ex lovers daughter. Are you serious?
• 9:36
  Yes. Oh my God.
• 9:39
  So yeah, the the second the the vice president, our founding
• 9:43
  father, apparently his wife was the daughter of his
• 9:50
  ex-girlfriend. Oh, that's fun.
• 9:52
  Yep. Yeah.
• 9:53
  That's wow. OK, so, OK, so here's the thing.
• 9:56
  Great, because we're already getting the thing that we I want
• 9:58
  to talk about, which is like, how do you, where do you go?
• 10:01
  How do you find your sources? This is like a lot of the stuff
• 10:04
  that you go into is very well researched.
• 10:06
  It's like you provide sources. And I know that some of that
• 10:09
  stuff is like archive stuff, but where do you get like all the,
• 10:12
  all the like the nice spicy tea? Like I remember you did like a
• 10:15
  TikTok on like the I See Africa conference.
• 10:19
  How did you find all of that information?
• 10:20
  That's a. Really good one, yeah.
• 10:22
  For that specific, I can't remember where exactly, but I
• 10:25
  knew that that was already oh you know where I got that one
• 10:28
  from. I had been given a book called
• 10:31
  Komsi Komsa, and I can't remember the authors name, but
• 10:33
  it was a wonderful book about this guy who basically dabbled
• 10:38
  in the weapons trade of the 60s. It's a historical fiction and at
• 10:43
  one point in the story, spoiler alert, at one point in the
• 10:45
  story, he was given the task of assassinating Sukarno.
• 10:51
  Yeah. And it was in the kind of.
• 10:54
  Did he succeed? Area of the it's.
• 10:57
  In this one. Yes, comes.
• 10:59
  By S ito ES ito. Yes, ito.
• 11:02
  Yes, and and there was he was in Bandung.
• 11:06
  He was, there was like a plot line in Bandung for the
• 11:10
  conference. And he was like saying that, you
• 11:13
  know, there were these comfort committees and, you know, it was
• 11:18
  obviously exaggerated for fiction, but I was like, all of
• 11:23
  the other things in this book was based on truth.
• 11:25
  So maybe there is a truth in that.
• 11:27
  And so I just started Googling stuff and like talking, thinking
• 11:31
  about like all of these different buzzwords.
• 11:33
  And lo and behold, all of these different academic sources came
• 11:36
  in. And it's like, actually, it's so
• 11:39
  easy to go into a deep dive when it comes to history.
• 11:43
  But of course, there's so many like, sides and so many Povs and
• 11:46
  so many like, hot takes from all of the different academics.
• 11:49
  So you gotta like filter through and unfortunately what I've been
• 11:54
  seeing with a lot of like the mass media, like if you go to
• 11:57
  let's say this publicator, this publicator or whatever, they
• 12:00
  tend to kind of fold the history into one or sometimes even this
• 12:05
  like 5 different people become one person because they don't
• 12:10
  reference, right? And so that's also, it becomes
• 12:13
  like a responsibility as well, to make sure that you have your
• 12:16
  sources right as well and get to the actual, maybe not the exact
• 12:20
  truth, but the most similar truth to what actually happened
• 12:24
  because we might never know what actually happened.
• 12:25
  Yeah, That's true. Yeah.
• 12:27
  So yeah, a lot of the, sorry, a lot of the sources come from,
• 12:30
  like, reading historical fiction because I'm a nerd, reading a
• 12:35
  lot of other books. Yeah.
• 12:37
  Sometimes the juicy bits of gossip is in the footnotes.
• 12:41
  Really. Yeah.
• 12:42
  What's the juiciest footnote you've ever read?
• 12:46
  I never thought I would hear a juicy footnote, but that's an
• 12:49
  interesting phrase. But I think.
• 12:51
  You should trademark that by. The way juicy juicy.
• 12:54
  Footnote. Feet pics here sounds.
• 12:58
  Horrible like. You're right here first, folks,
• 13:03
  paid Mark. A juicy footnote would be I was
• 13:07
  recently I did a video on I can't remember now what I did
• 13:11
  the video on basically 19 pre 1965 and it was most of it was
• 13:17
  because of the Jakarta method by Vincent Bevins and he literally
• 13:24
  like mentions in like 5 paragraphs about how the US
• 13:29
  created this porn movie that was supposed to look like.
• 13:33
  So I don't know that was. That was, that was.
• 13:35
  That Russian discussion. Yeah, it was too.
• 13:37
  So it was the Russians and the Americans.
• 13:40
  Wow. The Americans hired this like
• 13:42
  Hispanic looking dark skinned guy.
• 13:45
  And apparently he still had to wear a mask and he was, you
• 13:48
  know, just having fun. And they filmed it in Hollywood.
• 13:52
  This was like a production. This is wow IA production the.
• 13:55
  IA production got the big bills as well.
• 13:57
  This is This is. Stanley Kubrick to direct we.
• 14:01
  Literally had this the exact same talking point on the last
• 14:04
  episode 2 episodes ago with vodka.
• 14:06
  We're talking about the the specific tape, but we weren't
• 14:10
  sure. We didn't know whether that tape
• 14:12
  was actually a real thing because we hear the stories,
• 14:15
  right? Yeah, because from what I
• 14:17
  remember, like the story that I read, it was like actually the
• 14:20
  carno and it was a K GB spy or something.
• 14:23
  And he was like, when threatened, when it's releasing,
• 14:26
  he's like, yeah, do it. Yeah, it.
• 14:27
  Makes me look look like it wasn't.
• 14:29
  It was so that was the Americans.
• 14:31
  The Americans did the Hollywood porn movie The Russians had.
• 14:36
  So apparently when Sukano went to the Kremlin, or I, I forgot
• 14:42
  which capital it was at that time, he apparently had a good
• 14:47
  time with one of the Pramagari, one of the air hostesses.
• 14:51
  And the Russians were like, hey, we know that you did the nasty
• 14:55
  on the plane, but he didn't do it.
• 14:58
  And he was like, apparently he didn't do it.
• 15:01
  And so that's why he was like so cocky.
• 15:03
  He was like, yeah, go on, I want to see it.
• 15:04
  Stolen Valor. You know.
• 15:06
  Stolen Valor. Yeah.
• 15:08
  But it's interesting how, like, those two opposing, like, really
• 15:12
  big forces during the 60s basically threatened him with
• 15:17
  the same thing, which is, yeah. Yeah.
• 15:18
  Yeah, we know you had sex. Yeah, which?
• 15:21
  Is, yeah. Meanwhile, Hatta's like, I've
• 15:24
  been knowing this and I've been trying to stop him.
• 15:27
  Isn't it also true that like while Sukarno was off on his
• 15:33
  adventures, didn't Hatta like take like a vow that like I will
• 15:37
  not marry until like, like we become independent or something,
• 15:41
  something like that, right? And then is that true?
• 15:44
  Have you heard of that one? Yeah, I've heard of that one.
• 15:46
  I can't say that I know exactly because I haven't researched it,
• 15:49
  but I know that he did eventually marry after.
• 15:53
  His ex's daughter. Exactly.
• 15:55
  He did marry his ex's daughter after our independence.
• 15:58
  And that was also because, like, that was after a lot of teasing
• 16:02
  from Sukarno as well. Like, oh, you're not married
• 16:05
  yet, like that, right. Because, you know, at this point
• 16:08
  he's been married what, like 40 billion Times Now.
• 16:10
  Yeah. True.
• 16:11
  Yeah. So he's been.
• 16:12
  Rookie numbers. Man.
• 16:14
  Rookie numbers bro. You ain't got the rizz bro all.
• 16:16
  Right. Did those marriages overlap at
• 16:18
  any point? Yeah, Sukarno's.
• 16:21
  Yeah, I think some of them did, right.
• 16:22
  Yeah, yeah, he was. Wow, he really was everything he
• 16:26
  was. Drachman you know, one of the
• 16:28
  chance of, of the demonstrators during the guided democracy
• 16:32
  years of like 19571959 was like, and so like these people would
• 16:41
  like March in the 50s outside of the and they would sing that.
• 16:47
  Yeah. That's great.
• 16:48
  Yeah. Wow.
• 16:49
  Greek ass president. Yeah, so if anyone, so if anyone
• 16:54
  has a problem with our generation being disrespectful.
• 16:56
  Yeah, online, you know, or. In our protest, we can just
• 16:59
  being like, no, we're carrying the tradition of our
• 17:01
  forefathers. Really carrying the torch.
• 17:03
  Yeah. Real, real.
• 17:04
  Tell that to our dead grandpas. My grandpa's alive, man.
• 17:08
  Oh. Shit, so sorry.
• 17:11
  Yeah. Good for him though, yeah.
• 17:13
  He's alive. He's alive and kicking.
• 17:14
  Rest in his granddad. Wait, I saw your granddad.
• 17:19
  Oh wait, no, that's your dad, bro.
• 17:22
  Oh my God. No, I was.
• 17:25
  No, I was thinking about your wedding.
• 17:26
  No, that was your dad. That was my.
• 17:27
  Dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:29
  Nevermind, nevermind. Anyway, sorry if I said
• 17:33
  something funny, it completely blocked everything I was going
• 17:35
  to say out. Of my mind.
• 17:37
  Cicardo What a guy. Yeah.
• 17:38
  What a. Guy what a guy yeah.
• 17:40
  I think from there we just. I want to get, I also want to
• 17:44
  talk about like the, the Kabaya stuff because actually I wanted
• 17:48
  to ask you this in person because didn't you make a video
• 17:53
  responding to some like hot Kabaya tapes?
• 17:57
  And did that video get taken down or did you like, no,
• 18:01
  because I was going through that and I couldn't find it.
• 18:04
  I just wondered if it got taken down or maybe like the original
• 18:06
  got taken down and so yours got taken down.
• 18:09
  So like, yeah. This is the best.
• 18:12
  Time I I don't know, I gotta check which one.
• 18:15
  That one. Yeah, true.
• 18:16
  Or maybe which is I'm just bad at finding videos.
• 18:18
  No, it's OK. Oh yeah.
• 18:20
  Which one are you referring to though?
• 18:22
  So yeah, one of the one of the other things I want to talk
• 18:25
  about today is like, as you can see on camera, we are all in
• 18:29
  various forms of traditional garb.
• 18:31
  Unless you're listening on Spotify, in which case you can't
• 18:33
  see what we're wearing. Yeah, in which case go to our
• 18:35
  Instagram. We probably.
• 18:36
  Have photos, but they look all they all look very handsome.
• 18:39
  Well, thank. You.
• 18:40
  That's that's. That's great.
• 18:42
  We've been validated. By.
• 18:43
  Gorgeous. Yeah.
• 18:46
  Yeah. Anyways, yeah.
• 18:48
  So I think that was the point at which like I started following
• 18:56
  you because like before that I just got like, Oh yeah, cool.
• 18:58
  Because you know how TikTok works, right?
• 19:00
  Sometimes you being like, you don't follow anyone, but they
• 19:02
  just keep showing up and you slowly, it's like Tik Tok's
• 19:05
  slowly trying to introduce you to a person and so weird.
• 19:07
  But like I think at that point, So what had happened?
• 19:12
  I believe what there was a So was it like a creative house or
• 19:18
  like a collective? The people who did the video the
• 19:21
  first time, OK. You gotta describe what the
• 19:23
  video. Is.
• 19:24
  Yeah, it is a. Video no man.
• 19:25
  So there was, see, I'm not sure whether it was like a collective
• 19:29
  or just a group of friends because they looked like they
• 19:30
  were in an office of some sort. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:32
  And they were all in traditional where Burkayen.
• 19:37
  And they were doing like this TikTok thing where you point the
• 19:41
  camera at someone, you ask them a random question.
• 19:43
  And I believe the video was like, were they like being
• 19:48
  asked? Like they're like like but a
• 19:49
  kind of hot takes or. Something They're like hot
• 19:51
  peeves, yeah. Yeah, peeves of people who are
• 19:54
  using basically. Yeah.
• 19:57
  And they had a lot of, they had a lot of takes, I think, and.
• 20:03
  Like they don't like when people use like duct tape or something.
• 20:08
  Yeah, that was one of the best they.
• 20:09
  Don't like it when they fold it a certain way or whatever.
• 20:12
  Just a bunch of very elitist as people would would as people.
• 20:18
  A lot of people have already put out like elitist takes.
• 20:21
  It's like, yo, like chill out, dude.
• 20:23
  You know, and I've got a lot of like heat, you know, a lot of
• 20:26
  people were dunking on them. A lot of people were clowning on
• 20:28
  them. You know, I don't know if they
• 20:31
  had a response to that at this point.
• 20:33
  I think they did, but I'm not sure.
• 20:35
  Yeah, I think they created this. I don't know.
• 20:37
  I'm not sure if it was a video or just like a bunch of text.
• 20:40
  Yeah. Basically, yeah.
• 20:42
  What about those videos? Yeah, I'm just curious about
• 20:46
  what your take on that whole drama drama is the drama and
• 20:51
  also what your cuz I wanted to try segue also just the
• 20:55
  discussion of the kids these days.
• 20:59
  Kids these days we're we're we're we're wearing the cayenne,
• 21:02
  we're wearing the Sauron, the kabaya, the the whatevers and
• 21:06
  some people yeah, people have a lot of takes on that.
• 21:10
  Obviously you only you can only. Wear it this way or that, yeah.
• 21:13
  Exactly. So like, yeah, I wanted to,
• 21:15
  yeah, I wanted to know like what your first of all, like, what do
• 21:18
  you think about like, you know, traditional dress, traditional
• 21:23
  garb coming back? Like yeah, what's what's your
• 21:26
  view on that? Sure.
• 21:27
  I think like. We've seen it in the past ten
• 21:30
  years or so. Young kids, or at least people
• 21:35
  are age and a little bit older and a little bit younger, really
• 21:38
  take agency in the Wastra, the traditional clothes and fabrics
• 21:45
  and textiles of Indonesia, and it's great.
• 21:48
  One thing is that I think a lot of these kids are very, very
• 21:52
  willing to learn. We're very willing to learn not
• 21:54
  only to understand the stories behind the clothes, but also how
• 21:57
  to take care of it, how to properly wear it.
• 22:01
  And so that's why you see a lot of these very young communities
• 22:05
  and initiatives bringing forward this idea of like, don't be
• 22:09
  ashamed of wearing these. Are all of the.
• 22:12
  Different ways that you can mix and match it and that's great.
• 22:15
  That's wonderful. And I think I'm all for
• 22:19
  expressing yourself, especially with clothes, especially with
• 22:22
  fashion, it's the easiest way for you to identify yourself
• 22:26
  around and identify others as part of a group.
• 22:28
  You know, visually as well. I think in regards to the video,
• 22:36
  that video. Is actually my.
• 22:37
  Second account, yeah. And like.
• 22:40
  I was just. Ranting, hollering.
• 22:43
  And I was kind of like, I was disappointed, to be honest,
• 22:47
  because this specific video felt very gatekeepy and felt very
• 22:52
  yeah, yeah. Shaming.
• 22:54
  Other. Kids of not kids 'cause I don't
• 22:57
  wanna sound too old, just shaming other people of trying
• 23:01
  to learn and wear the the kind in the way that they're
• 23:05
  expressing it and they're comfortable with.
• 23:07
  And so it was very, it was a disappointment and, and a shame
• 23:11
  that that should have like that was, you know, put out there.
• 23:16
  I think also like there's such exclusivity already without
• 23:23
  that, unfortunately, because, and I especially kind of felt it
• 23:29
  when I kind of first came back from the states here, there's
• 23:34
  already people who are having their own cliques and stuff,
• 23:37
  right? And it's really hard for you to
• 23:40
  figure out who you are and where you are.
• 23:42
  And especially if you have a certain interest and something
• 23:46
  as heavy as Wasta as their own heritage, it's really hard to
• 23:50
  put your foot in. And nowadays, these kids, you
• 23:55
  know, with online, with with social media, with TikTok, it's
• 24:00
  more easier than ever to express yourself.
• 24:02
  And that's great. But there's also like a way that
• 24:07
  we can make it inclusive. You know, there's still out
• 24:13
  there. So many communities are very,
• 24:16
  very inclusive. One of them is shout out Bakasi
• 24:19
  Berkayen. They're so open to always, just
• 24:24
  like, how do you say in English, like Moranco?
• 24:28
  To adopt, yeah. To welcome embrace anybody
• 24:34
  that's willing to just learn. And that's also another thing
• 24:37
  the intention or it should be the intention is that to learn,
• 24:42
  right? It's not to kind of flaunt and
• 24:46
  or showcase something that my cayenne is much more expensive
• 24:51
  than yours. Yeah.
• 24:53
  That's kind of like. That's that feels the case with
• 24:55
  a lot of like the Jakarta big city, but Cayenne kids where
• 24:58
  it's like the point of them using this is to show that I'm
• 25:01
  I'm more cultured than you are. Yeah.
• 25:05
  Yeah, a lot. More.
• 25:06
  And. That's kind of where.
• 25:07
  The kind traditional exclusivity comes from because like if you
• 25:13
  go, for example, if you go to a cayenne or a Kabaya community,
• 25:19
  the traditional kind Kabaya community, you see a lot of like
• 25:22
  people that are perhaps our parents age.
• 25:24
  And these are collectors, people who are able to buy kinds with
• 25:30
  like brujuta juta, like really expensive kinds, you know,
• 25:34
  people with Kabaya collections from the 1930s or something like
• 25:38
  that. And that's the exclusivity that
• 25:41
  we don't want in our communities because again, like if you take
• 25:46
  something because this is heritage, right?
• 25:47
  What we're wearing now is heritage, but it's also at its
• 25:51
  functionality, at its core functionality, a cloth that
• 25:54
  what, what does a cloth do? It covers us, it protects us,
• 25:57
  and we need to wear it for a function, right?
• 26:00
  And. If we.
• 26:01
  Put it into an exclusive, a very exclusive box that, oh, this is
• 26:05
  only for certain people. It loses that function and it
• 26:09
  becomes much more prone to actually being forgotten because
• 26:14
  it's not. It's not.
• 26:17
  Yeah, it's. Not being, it's not.
• 26:18
  Relevant anymore, it's not accessible.
• 26:20
  So that's where I kind of not necessarily draw the line, but I
• 26:26
  kind of encourage a lot of especially Jakartans because we
• 26:30
  live in a bubble, A very big shine, yeah.
• 26:33
  We do. So.
• 26:34
  Just because we're wearing it a certain way here in the Jabul to
• 26:37
  Thabak area, we shouldn't stop other people.
• 26:41
  Maybe perhaps Bali in, in Maluku and wherever, you know, that's
• 26:47
  the way they want to express and that's the way they want to
• 26:49
  wear. So let them wear it that way as
• 26:50
  long as it's being worn and it's being celebrated as well.
• 26:55
  Yeah, here. Here's a here's.
• 26:56
  A. Here's a.
• 26:57
  Question that I've always been curious about.
• 26:59
  I mean, just by looking at where we are now talking as a group in
• 27:04
  the podcast, we're all wearing completely different.
• 27:07
  Yeah, like like Kaengan you're wearing.
• 27:12
  This is my Balanese. Common.
• 27:14
  Common exactly. And it's and it's.
• 27:16
  And it's quite traditionally wrapped around your legs as
• 27:21
  well. You're wearing kabaya.
• 27:22
  You're wearing a Saddam. Yeah, Saddam.
• 27:25
  And I'm, I'm. I'm kind of wearing like a
• 27:28
  modern interpretation. Yeah.
• 27:30
  Yeah, it was very. Cool.
• 27:31
  Yeah, but. But but.
• 27:32
  My dripped out man. But my but my but my question.
• 27:36
  Is what do you what do you think about that sort of
• 27:38
  traditionalist versus cosmopolitan push and pull and
• 27:43
  where would you say you stand on that spectrum I.
• 27:47
  Think there's it's. Always been that way.
• 27:49
  What's interesting is that I recently read a paper about how
• 27:54
  the Kabaya was basically adapted by women themselves, Indonesian
• 28:00
  women themselves, as like our de facto clothing kaan Kabaya,
• 28:04
  right? And even in the 50s, in the
• 28:06
  early 50's, the Jakarta women kind of always looked down upon
• 28:10
  the Daiya girls. When they were Kaan Kabaya.
• 28:14
  Because like, there are so many unwritten rules of like how the
• 28:18
  Jakarta women chose their kabaya, they're broke up,
• 28:21
  they're kind, they're slam dung, they're sandals, they're, you
• 28:25
  know, little plastic bags. And like, it's kind of funny
• 28:30
  because I think recently there was a TikTok trend of like
• 28:33
  Anakabu Patan. And you can always see Anakabu
• 28:36
  Patan, you can always figure out.
• 28:38
  And it was very degrading. But they've been like in
• 28:42
  Jakarta, girls have been doing it since the early 50s, right?
• 28:46
  And yeah, it's that it's it's kind of human nature to always
• 28:51
  kind of look at that. But now that we know better, I
• 28:54
  think for me personally, because we're in this age where we can
• 29:01
  figure out all of the different kind of range of people that are
• 29:04
  in the heritage space. I think we should just.
• 29:08
  Kind of. Realize what?
• 29:11
  Our actual mission is is to kind of celebrate our heritage and
• 29:15
  figure out what this is for, regardless of the way it was
• 29:17
  expressed. Exactly I.
• 29:18
  Think a better topic to shift it to is the sustainability aspect
• 29:24
  because like who are the ones that are now, because we know
• 29:27
  that this is important. We know that there is a certain
• 29:29
  procedure to it, there's a certain weight to it.
• 29:32
  But who are the ones that are creating these pathics or these
• 29:36
  wastra? Who are the ones that are so
• 29:39
  long your Kebayas? Because for centuries and
• 29:42
  centuries and centuries, there was never a name to those
• 29:45
  craftspeople. And now with social media, there
• 29:47
  should be because then it becomes something that we do
• 29:51
  bring and we like drag to this modern age of let our fashion be
• 29:56
  transparent and let us think these people who have been
• 29:59
  actually been the one that's like, you know, putting in the
• 30:03
  work to to create a heritage that lasts until today.
• 30:07
  Can I? Can I just?
• 30:08
  Say this is the most intelligent conversation we've ever had on
• 30:11
  the podcast. Yeah, this is the point.
• 30:12
  You are. You are you are we?
• 30:16
  Are brain rot. You are really helping.
• 30:18
  To ascend us into a greater. Level because.
• 30:21
  Usually we're just like, bro, this shit is so dumb man.
• 30:24
  And I was like, all right. Now it's all right here, yeah.
• 30:28
  Wow, this is great. Yeah.
• 30:31
  Thank you so much for coming. No.
• 30:33
  We're not even. Finished, don't we?
• 30:34
  We're so far. Wait, wait.
• 30:35
  So much for. Where am I going to put all the
• 30:37
  vine? Booms, Yeah.
• 30:39
  This is too intellectual. We need we need all the hot.
• 30:42
  Takes no, but honestly it's it's thank you, but the Burkhine.
• 30:46
  Stuff is very it's very much different ways of seeing, seeing
• 30:53
  it because if you're in Jakarta, like it's seen as like such a
• 30:57
  new culture, higher social status kind of thing.
• 31:02
  But like if if you're in Bali, this is just like regular aware.
• 31:05
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm from Bali, so like this
• 31:09
  is like. But Kayan and like wearing.
• 31:11
  Kayan, wearing like traditional aware is like part of everyday
• 31:15
  life, not necessarily that you'd wear it going out to the mall
• 31:19
  or, or hanging out, but like, because ceremonies and like
• 31:23
  prayers and stuff like that are so intertwined with daily life.
• 31:26
  Like you're going to have to wear kind.
• 31:29
  You're going to be familiar with kind.
• 31:30
  But, you know, it's such, such a different thing over here in
• 31:33
  like the cities, you know what I mean?
• 31:34
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 31:35
  That's true and not like not even that like I think whenever
• 31:38
  I visit like family in like Jawatunga, that's like this is
• 31:41
  very, very like, you know, sarong and like you know,
• 31:44
  company stuff like that. It's very common, especially if
• 31:46
  you just like go out like to the Pasar or like, you know, just
• 31:50
  like the, it's so like, I haven't, I can't remember the
• 31:53
  last time in Jakarta I saw like, you know, like a lady like
• 31:56
  selling Jammu. But like when I, when I go, but
• 31:58
  when I go to like a Central Java, they'll be like, yeah,
• 32:00
  they'll just be like, yeah, they'll be wearing the like
• 32:02
  they'll be like selling Jammu and being like, wow, you'd never
• 32:06
  see this in the big city. Yeah, yeah.
• 32:08
  Interesting. Yeah.
• 32:09
  It's interesting you mentioned that because one of like our
• 32:11
  very first topic of discussion for this podcast, our very first
• 32:16
  episode actually was about trends and fads.
• 32:20
  And one of the specific topics, topics of discussion that we
• 32:24
  talked about was how like the Indonesian youth more and more
• 32:33
  recently have been finding ways to, you know, return to their
• 32:39
  roots. And one of the ways that they've
• 32:40
  been doing so, or how many of them have been doing so, is by
• 32:45
  paying more attention to traditional clothing and
• 32:49
  traditional kind. I'm curious about your thoughts
• 32:55
  on, you know, the relationship between this, this very strong
• 32:59
  soft power that Western countries have and the role that
• 33:06
  our clothes, clothing, our kind has in helping us find our own
• 33:16
  identity as a nation, especially given our colorful history.
• 33:21
  Yeah. Has.
• 33:24
  Very much muddled the waters quite a lot.
• 33:28
  Well, boys, I'm listening. There's.
• 33:32
  One of my favorite eras in Indonesian history was the
• 33:35
  Pregraca Nationale, or the National Awakening around like
• 33:39
  the early 20s, Nineteen 20s. Why?
• 33:42
  Because if you look at the pictures of the young men,
• 33:45
  especially young educated men at that time, they were decked out.
• 33:49
  They did so many interesting mixing and matching.
• 33:53
  They had like these Western jackets.
• 33:56
  They sometimes would. Yeah, I've seen the you.
• 33:58
  Know. Blanco.
• 33:59
  But then they'd wear the kind. But they they would put these
• 34:03
  Jakarta but kind girlies shame. Because.
• 34:07
  They were the yeah. Yeah.
• 34:11
  Real. They were like the 1920s verse
• 34:14
  version of Wearing Kind with your Adidas, Yeah.
• 34:18
  Actually, yeah. Like they had like a.
• 34:19
  Tux. In it real, it was so.
• 34:21
  Good. They were so.
• 34:23
  Sharp And the reason why they started wearing that was exactly
• 34:26
  because they wanted to show their identity, because in the
• 34:30
  turn of the 19th to the 20th century, there was ethical
• 34:34
  policy. So these young men started being
• 34:36
  really, really highly educated. Yeah, and they started.
• 34:39
  Reading all of these philosophers and they started
• 34:42
  thinking like, wait a minute, these white people are free.
• 34:45
  Why aren't I, you know, so like, am I not a man?
• 34:49
  And so they also started realizing that the Dutch had
• 34:54
  specific sumptuary laws, or like the laws that kind of ordered
• 35:00
  you what you could wear specific to who you were.
• 35:02
  So if you're a bhumi, you only could wear beju batik or beju
• 35:06
  paden or beju Mai or whatever. Were they all sort of like?
• 35:10
  Divided amongst like racial lines or Yeah yeah, so like the.
• 35:13
  White people could wear what the Chinese put on.
• 35:16
  A fan could wear what? OK.
• 35:16
  Yeah, OK. But he woo me according.
• 35:18
  To your tribe. Yeah.
• 35:20
  Because it was a way for the ruling class to visually
• 35:23
  identify you. Yeah.
• 35:25
  To like. Oh, if otherwise, they'd be so
• 35:27
  confused. Exactly.
• 35:28
  Like, are you Chinese or? Exactly like.
• 35:31
  Oh, you. You have black skin, but he has
• 35:34
  black skin too. Like so they don't know, right?
• 35:36
  It's almost. Like we made it up.
• 35:38
  Yeah. It's almost like race.
• 35:41
  We made it up. Are you saying racism?
• 35:43
  Isn't real. No, I mean racism is real.
• 35:47
  Sorry, yeah. Do go on.
• 35:47
  That's not going in. Race isn't real.
• 35:50
  Yeah, right. So.
• 35:51
  Yeah, there was these very young, very bright men who
• 35:57
  realized that if they wore the baju prebumi, they were treated
• 36:02
  differently than when they were wearing their school uniforms
• 36:06
  because their school uniforms were similar to the Western
• 36:10
  clothes, right? Like suits?
• 36:12
  Yeah. Exactly.
• 36:13
  And so. They were like, I don't wanna be
• 36:17
  treated like a second class citizen.
• 36:19
  Yeah, I'm smart. I speak.
• 36:21
  Dutch fluently, yeah. Actually, I speak more languages
• 36:24
  than those white people 'cause I speak my local dialogue, I speak
• 36:27
  Malayu, I speak Dutch, I speak English.
• 36:29
  Maybe. Yeah, once of the day, in
• 36:31
  fairness. Yeah, they get the oh.
• 36:33
  Not. English.
• 36:34
  So the States, yeah. You.
• 36:36
  Get the We've all yeah. They they get the.
• 36:39
  Oh, how many languages? Oh, so nice, right?
• 36:42
  Yeah. That that was.
• 36:44
  The same thing that these these men were were going through in
• 36:47
  the 20th century. And so they started having this
• 36:51
  literally a national debate through the newspapers.
• 36:54
  They were like, we should wear the guy.
• 36:57
  No, we should wear the sun. No, no, we should wear the
• 37:00
  Johanna, the the trousers. And that's where the famous
• 37:05
  Sukarno quote of like, if a Prebumi wears trousers, he would
• 37:09
  would be able to stand tall like any white person or like any
• 37:13
  Europeaner. Oh, OK.
• 37:15
  And that's really. Yeah, wow.
• 37:18
  And that's really where Indonesians started.
• 37:22
  Specifically Indonesian men started thinking like, oh, this
• 37:26
  is this is my identity. If I'm wearing a jacket and a
• 37:30
  shirt, a European kind of clothing, it showcases and
• 37:35
  reflects my way of thinking because I'm well read and I will
• 37:39
  push this nation to freedom eventually.
• 37:43
  But if I still wear the clothing and the the textiles of my
• 37:47
  ancestors, I'm also making them proud.
• 37:50
  I'm also a proud son of my nation.
• 37:53
  So it was that that mix and match and and it's really
• 37:57
  interesting that we also see it now with these, you know, guy in
• 38:01
  communities showing that yes, I am a person of the Internet of
• 38:06
  the world of this 21st century, the Internet, but.
• 38:09
  Yeah. I'm also proudly Indonesian.
• 38:13
  Yeah, where? Yeah.
• 38:15
  Sorry. Did you have a question?
• 38:16
  No, I was just. Saying it's really fascinating.
• 38:18
  Yeah, extremely. Fascinating.
• 38:20
  I think every. Time you have these sorts of
• 38:23
  movements, there's something behind it, as in like, what
• 38:26
  prompted you to kind of like seek this identity for yourself?
• 38:29
  You know what I mean? Like, why do people like now as
• 38:33
  in like they started to like, really try to get in touch or
• 38:37
  identify themselves as Indonesian and sort of maybe not
• 38:41
  outwardly rejecting Western culture, but kind of like trying
• 38:45
  to meld it into something different.
• 38:47
  Maybe they're trying to find themselves trying to identify
• 38:51
  themselves more with their roots.
• 38:53
  Yeah. I.
• 38:54
  Find that interest. I find that interesting because
• 38:56
  I feel like that really applies to everyone in this room too,
• 38:59
  including Kim and our producer Luke, who's off camera.
• 39:03
  That we're all in, in many ways, like third culture kids, you
• 39:07
  know, and in some ways us doing this, talking about these things
• 39:12
  are is is also our way of reclaiming that.
• 39:17
  I can imagine when you first dove into, you know, Indonesian
• 39:23
  fashion and Indonesian history, that you must have felt that way
• 39:26
  too. Like a like a sort of like
• 39:27
  calling. Yeah, right.
• 39:28
  Like you felt like, Oh my God, this is me.
• 39:30
  You ever feel? That kind of like I'm, I'm not
• 39:34
  Indonesian enough for the Indonesians and I'm not Western
• 39:37
  enough for the Western. Yeah, everyday.
• 39:40
  I swear every time I stumble on an Indonesian word.
• 39:43
  What was there was 1 Indonesian word that or a phrase that might
• 39:48
  my close girlfriend told me that was like was it like cabel or
• 39:54
  something Cabel, but I. Said it.
• 39:56
  Babel. Yeah, all of.
• 39:59
  My close friends, all my close girlfriends always just laugh at
• 40:02
  me when I try to talk language and stuff because I always mix
• 40:06
  it around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:08
  Can I? Can I?
• 40:09
  Shake your hand real quick, yeah?
• 40:13
  This is the third culture, Yeah, the third culture also.
• 40:16
  I'm also. Extending my hand, yeah.
• 40:19
  Yeah, the third culture. Collective it's.
• 40:21
  Always like. That it's it's so nice to.
• 40:23
  Feel to feel related too. Yeah, it's a.
• 40:25
  Massive struggle isn't. It it it it's.
• 40:27
  Intimidating to kind of want to learn your culture because a lot
• 40:32
  of the times, at least me personally, I would feel like if
• 40:36
  I try to like, do that at this age, like people in my
• 40:41
  traditional community would be like, why don't you already know
• 40:43
  this? Yeah, exactly.
• 40:45
  Exactly. Yeah, that is why don't you
• 40:46
  already know? This I remember when I first
• 40:48
  moved to Bali in like third grade, I had because we had
• 40:52
  Balanese language as a as a subject.
• 40:55
  I was struggling, I didn't know what anything meant.
• 40:57
  And then remember this. This traumatized me for life
• 41:00
  like the. Teacher was like.
• 41:03
  He was basically like basically he, he said how come you don't
• 41:08
  know how to how to speak balines?
• 41:09
  I just got here real. Soon.
• 41:13
  But like them like. There is the feeling of kind of
• 41:16
  like you're, you're an outsider trying to come into a culture
• 41:21
  that should be your own, but you don't feel like you quite belong
• 41:25
  there just yet, you know? And so it's a really tough
• 41:29
  things, tough barrier to get to, you know.
• 41:31
  Yeah. And then there's.
• 41:32
  Also that aspect I wanna, I wanna, I wanna bring back to
• 41:35
  about traditionalism versus, you know, cosmopolitanism where like
• 41:40
  if you wanna try, what's wrong with cosmopolitan?
• 41:42
  No, Why are you laughing? No, it's funny.
• 41:44
  You're just thinking of the the magazine.
• 41:46
  I don't hear. You are you thinking about.
• 41:47
  Cosmopolitan. Yeah, I'm thinking in my.
• 41:49
  Head Dun Dun Dun like the session of the city.
• 41:52
  No, I'm not. I'm.
• 41:53
  Literally thinking. Cosmo like.
• 41:54
  The magazine, just, I'm thinking the magazine too, yeah.
• 41:56
  Yeah, Flash Magazine. No, go.
• 41:57
  Please go. No, thank you.
• 41:58
  No. No, it's like, it's like when,
• 42:02
  when you try to do something, or at least from my personal
• 42:05
  experience I've had, I've had those times when like I, I've
• 42:09
  adopted something that's traditionally of my culture.
• 42:13
  But then I try to approach in a different way.
• 42:15
  I try to do it in a different way or I try to present it in a
• 42:18
  different way. And then somebody comes up to me
• 42:20
  and says that's not how you're supposed to do it.
• 42:21
  Yeah. Yeah, but in reality?
• 42:23
  Like. Listen, you know.
• 42:27
  Culture is a thing that evolves over the over time, right?
• 42:32
  Hell yeah. You know, that's why I.
• 42:33
  Wore this because I thought like, I don't know but but but
• 42:40
  but one of the reasons why I really like this is because it
• 42:42
  really blends with that sort of like traditional aspects that I
• 42:50
  really want to get in touch with about myself.
• 42:54
  With the sort of accepting the reality that that I am a modern
• 43:00
  man who was raised in the West and who therefore has has has a
• 43:05
  taste that in many ways has been influenced by which way Western
• 43:09
  man. But at the same time it's like.
• 43:10
  Fighting against that, fighting against that, that sort of like,
• 43:14
  you know. Hold for a conservative.
• 43:16
  Needs to be a certain way or else you're doing it wrong with.
• 43:19
  Really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:20
  Absolutely. And it's kind of like an
• 43:22
  everyday battle really, isn't it?
• 43:24
  Because like, people look at you when you eat your fries with
• 43:29
  salt and vinegar rather than samba salsa.
• 43:31
  I don't do that. Salt.
• 43:33
  And vinegar. Fried vinegar.
• 43:34
  Yeah, like. Do you?
• 43:35
  Do you eat your fries with salt and vinegar?
• 43:37
  Your fries with salt and vinegar.
• 43:40
  No judgment. No judgment here, sorry.
• 43:41
  We're ending the. No.
• 43:46
  I'm kidding, but yeah, like those.
• 43:47
  Type of like things that you know and then you talk about
• 43:50
  like certain things that make sense in your head.
• 43:53
  Coast of you by the. Way what an.
• 43:55
  East Coast girl out here right and.
• 43:58
  Yeah, it's kind of like a everyday struggle as a third
• 44:01
  culture kid, right? Yeah.
• 44:03
  Damn. Straight we can complain about
• 44:04
  this all. Day.
• 44:05
  I swear to God, I have so many frustrations.
• 44:07
  Is that right? Air out this is.
• 44:10
  The Diaspora. Episode actually, yeah, the.
• 44:12
  Diaspora, but what's? Funny.
• 44:13
  That you. Mentioned diaspora.
• 44:14
  It's like as Third culture kids, you know, our parents are 100%
• 44:18
  Indonesian. Yeah, we can't say that we're a
• 44:20
  diaspora. Technically, not really.
• 44:22
  Even though like. Yeah, we are.
• 44:25
  We don't speak like Indonesians, you know what I mean?
• 44:28
  Yeah. Weird.
• 44:29
  Like, am I? What am I?
• 44:31
  I. Yeah.
• 44:33
  What are we supposed the interesting?
• 44:34
  Thing is like. I have, I have a friend who's
• 44:36
  like, you know, grew up mostly here.
• 44:39
  Well, mostly I went to school here and they referred to me as,
• 44:43
  oh, you're very desperate or desperate coded because they,
• 44:48
  yeah, they live and work in Bali where they do have like actual
• 44:50
  diaspora friends. And like the way that I talk and
• 44:55
  the way that they're like diaspora friend talks are very
• 44:58
  similar, but not, not just in like, you know, the language,
• 45:01
  but in the like, put this like if you yeah, if you grew up
• 45:10
  brown in a white person place for long enough.
• 45:15
  No conversation. Is is ever just about.
• 45:18
  I'm gonna tell you about this. Yeah, it's always being like,
• 45:21
  oh, we're gonna talk about whatever we're gonna talk about.
• 45:23
  And then I'm also going to have to explain myself somewhat.
• 45:26
  Yeah, right. And that's very like hard coded
• 45:29
  into like, I guess what the like the diaspora way of making
• 45:33
  because. Because on top of you having,
• 45:36
  you know, just the, the whatever conversation we have in the 1st
• 45:38
  place, there's always like the the, I don't know, like the
• 45:41
  white gaze of being like, you're so odd.
• 45:44
  Yeah. Why are?
• 45:45
  You. You're so.
• 45:46
  Exotic. Yeah.
• 45:48
  Oh my God. Edward Said.
• 45:50
  Oh, man. No.
• 45:51
  But so, yeah, there's always that sort of like I have to, I
• 45:55
  somehow have to justify why I can no things.
• 45:58
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 45:59
  Like we're not all idiots. Yeah, yeah.
• 46:01
  No, yeah. So because because.
• 46:03
  That's most of the times. That's why I think that like,
• 46:05
  you know, we like, that's how I think.
• 46:08
  There's always like a second person in the back of my head
• 46:10
  being like, you're going to have to explain why you're allowed to
• 46:14
  know this. And so you're like, yeah, after
• 46:16
  I finish my point, be like. And also, you know, I also like,
• 46:19
  I've been here, I've done that. That's why I am allowed to have
• 46:23
  opinions. I feel like this is not
• 46:25
  something that like, I don't know, like do do you notice that
• 46:28
  like dynamic was you or your friends or like or any of you
• 46:31
  really? I remember one time.
• 46:32
  I was, I came back to Birmingham.
• 46:34
  I studied in the UK for for context, I came back to
• 46:38
  Birmingham after a year. They know it's at this point
• 46:39
  after. A year and.
• 46:41
  I hope they do. They'll be paying attention with
• 46:43
  the lore. Yeah, yeah.
• 46:46
  And. I came back and I remember just
• 46:50
  just, just, just a, just a disclaimer, Birmingham sucks.
• 46:55
  There's that one. Guy who really hates Birmingham
• 46:57
  on YouTube and he's like, I fucking hate Birmingham.
• 47:02
  And he's absolutely right. It sucks.
• 47:05
  The people are great. You know, it's a very multi,
• 47:07
  it's a, it's a very diverse multicultural city with a lot of
• 47:12
  like, interesting folks. OK, Birmingham.
• 47:14
  Interesting and colorful. Folks go on, but.
• 47:17
  But but. But but but as.
• 47:19
  A city. It fucking sucks.
• 47:20
  OK, all right, OK. Like, there's no two ways about
• 47:23
  it. And one time I went, I was
• 47:24
  hanging out with my flatmates who are white about, about,
• 47:30
  about Birmingham. And we were saying, and we were
• 47:34
  talking about how, you know, Birmingham is so frustrating.
• 47:37
  And you know the? Infrastructure's horrible.
• 47:39
  These pavements are these, these pavements are are are are
• 47:43
  breaking apart. You know what I mean?
• 47:46
  And. Obviously I wanted to chime in
• 47:47
  because I always feel like I have to chime in in every
• 47:49
  conversation as. You should that's.
• 47:52
  Why you're a male? Podcaster.
• 47:53
  Exactly. That's why I'm a male podcaster.
• 47:57
  And. I decided to say.
• 48:00
  I decided to say. Well, I feel like Birmingham's
• 48:02
  in a third world country. And they looked at me.
• 48:07
  Super dirty like oh I can't, you won't just.
• 48:11
  Said that. You said my.
• 48:13
  I can't and. I couldn't tell if.
• 48:14
  I couldn't tell if they were more offended because I was
• 48:17
  calling the place in the Uka third world country or because I
• 48:21
  was saying the word the term third world country.
• 48:24
  Like you know what? I.
• 48:26
  Mean yeah. Third world country.
• 48:28
  And and if they're. Offended on behalf of brown
• 48:30
  people, You know what I mean? Because.
• 48:34
  Because. Because.
• 48:35
  Because that tends to happen quite a lot, especially when
• 48:38
  you're talking to white people. You're like, you shouldn't say
• 48:40
  that about Indonesians. They're gonna be offended.
• 48:43
  They'd be like bro. Are you fucking serious?
• 48:46
  Are. You kidding me?
• 48:47
  I can say I know. These motherfuckers.
• 48:49
  I fucking hate the. Japanese.
• 48:50
  You know what? I mean, we cut that out.
• 48:53
  I can't. Say that.
• 48:54
  Out. I can say that because I'm
• 48:55
  Japanese and I'm kidding. Yeah.
• 48:57
  No, no, I don't actually hate the Japanese, by the way.
• 49:00
  You heard it. Here first.
• 49:03
  Yeah, some person's gonna like, dig up dirt on you and they're
• 49:06
  gonna have to go to like minute, Yeah.
• 49:08
  One hour and 4 minute mark on the tweet from 2000. 21 to 720
• 49:14
  it's not. The it's not the Javanese you'd.
• 49:15
  Be scared about It's dissing the Syndanese.
• 49:17
  It is dissing the Syndanese. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:19
  You'll go to prison. Bro yeah, it's true.
• 49:21
  You'll go to prison bro, That's true.
• 49:23
  And I'm a mix of. Both so you know that's gonna
• 49:25
  happen. That's fine, I'll.
• 49:26
  Be I'll be OK. 2044 when I run for president.
• 49:29
  By the way, I've just found my new Minister of Culture.
• 49:34
  Hey, you didn't give. Us any.
• 49:37
  Minister. Positions, hey.
• 49:39
  Hey man, I I got some positions I can we'll we'll find a way to
• 49:42
  spread it could be minister of vibes.
• 49:45
  It could be minister of. Vibes, right?
• 49:46
  Yeah. Two minister of parties, dude.
• 49:48
  Minister of Parties, yeah. You make another.
• 49:49
  Bloated cabinet? Too many.
• 49:52
  Minister. Positions too many?
• 49:54
  Yeah. All your friends, yeah.
• 49:56
  I forgot I. Don't know where that
• 49:57
  conversation is going, so I'm going to give it back to the
• 49:59
  house. No, no.
• 50:00
  I. Wanted to pull it back to like
• 50:04
  it's almost like because you had to you were sort of like on the
• 50:09
  outside looking in especially to like towards your heritage in
• 50:14
  regards to like Indonesian culture that almost like help
• 50:17
  you grow an appreciation for it. Do you think that that's why
• 50:22
  maybe like maybe like a lot of like, I don't know what the term
• 50:27
  is normal Indonesian, like Indonesians that don't have that
• 50:30
  experience of having like, you know, having to like grow up in
• 50:34
  a different place. And so they're just kind of like
• 50:37
  normalize it. Do you think that's why like
• 50:39
  maybe to a lot of people, you know, traditional garbage and
• 50:43
  stuff like that doesn't really have the same appeal?
• 50:45
  Like maybe they're like associated with, yeah, that's
• 50:48
  like, you know, that's like old people.
• 50:49
  That's like musty old people stuff, yeah.
• 50:51
  That's a good point. Yeah, that's a really.
• 50:53
  Interesting point. Yeah, Yeah.
• 50:55
  I think like at some point or another, there are like 2 points
• 51:01
  in an Indonesian youth's life, right?
• 51:03
  There's one point where you were a kid and you were forced to
• 51:06
  wear the cayenne and the the bed traditional for and you're like,
• 51:10
  I hate this. So that's one point.
• 51:13
  And then another point is like perhaps when you're a lot older
• 51:16
  and you have your own career and then if you are very important,
• 51:21
  you have to show up in the buttock and that becomes their
• 51:26
  own sort of age to own their own or something.
• 51:30
  Right? Yeah.
• 51:31
  And I think. Perhaps not everybody has that
• 51:37
  realization of, yes, this is very important.
• 51:39
  But I think at least Indonesians certainly get to a point where
• 51:43
  they realize having at least one vastra is important for even
• 51:49
  just a shallow excuse of I wanna go to a or like a marriage
• 51:54
  ceremony where you need to wear something.
• 51:56
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 51:56
  Because it's so integrated in our daily life, Right.
• 52:02
  But I don't know. And also I feel like right now
• 52:06
  with with where, like, for example, like Nona, do you guys
• 52:11
  know the band? The band?
• 52:12
  Yeah, my. Wife loves.
• 52:14
  Them. Yeah, they're.
• 52:15
  They're so good. No.
• 52:17
  Your wife? Yeah.
• 52:19
  They're so good, they're. This Indonesian girl band that
• 52:24
  are kind of competing in the charts with these K pop, they
• 52:30
  don't hold back in bringing Indonesian aesthetics.
• 52:34
  Yeah. And when kids see that there,
• 52:36
  that's like something that I don't think even we had, which
• 52:38
  is seeing someone in. In.
• 52:41
  Mass media with our skin color, with our heritage, and they're
• 52:45
  like flaunting it. Yeah.
• 52:46
  And they're bringing about like the.
• 52:47
  Gentile. Exactly.
• 52:49
  Exactly to even incorporate it in.
• 52:51
  The production of the music to Yeah, with a lot of like
• 52:53
  traditional instruments. Yeah, I didn't know about the.
• 52:56
  Instruments part I thought it was mostly a lot of like what I
• 52:59
  view is because I view it visually a lot of like the the
• 53:02
  known as like visual identity. I know post a lot from like the
• 53:05
  very like 10 deal culture of like the 2000s where there's a
• 53:09
  lot of like I don't know like Chinta Laura music video.
• 53:13
  They use the. Use the Tang Tang.
• 53:15
  Tang Tang Oh, that's. What that is?
• 53:18
  Oh, OK, I didn't know that. And some of their music.
• 53:20
  They also, they also mix a lot of like, why do you keep
• 53:23
  smiling? I don't know.
• 53:25
  What? Do you mean?
• 53:26
  I just don't see my face as I'm mostly looking at this way, but
• 53:29
  I smile when people talk to me. Go on.
• 53:31
  No, no, no, no, no. There's, there's.
• 53:33
  In in their music, they also integrate kind of a lot of like
• 53:36
  Indonesian elements as well, or elements from music from New
• 53:40
  Santara particularly. I don't remember which song it
• 53:43
  was, but they use a lot of like really.
• 53:48
  What's the word buddy? What's the word?
• 53:49
  I forgot the word. What's the?
• 53:51
  Word. It's the one.
• 53:52
  It's it's the, it's the song genre that goes.
• 53:54
  It's Super Kunti. And it was like super, what the
• 53:58
  fuck am I talking about? Yeah, yeah.
• 54:00
  Oh, you were looking for down? I was like.
• 54:04
  They include. All of that.
• 54:05
  Yeah, a lot of those elements. And I think that's really cool.
• 54:07
  And you're right, we have been missing that.
• 54:09
  Yeah, we haven't. Ever seen?
• 54:11
  I remember when I was a kid I looked up to Mulan because she
• 54:14
  ate rice as well, right? Oh my.
• 54:17
  God, that's crazy. Like.
• 54:19
  Like try and grasp. Every little thing, yeah.
• 54:23
  Like. US, yeah.
• 54:24
  No. Because I remember also like in
• 54:26
  like when was when did Crazy Rich Asians come out?
• 54:30
  Oh. 2017201717 Something. Like that yeah yeah, I remember
• 54:36
  18 yeah, I remember yeah my friends is going crazy but like
• 54:40
  Oh my God, Asians and like like that's how starved we are yeah,
• 54:44
  despite. The fact that like.
• 54:45
  Crazy Rich Asians is kind of like an ass movie when it comes
• 54:48
  like representation really is. Like not even.
• 54:50
  Very accurate representation of like Southeast Asia, also
• 54:54
  Indonesia. Like comes up like for two
• 54:58
  seconds or something like that. Yeah, because.
• 55:00
  I keep I. I keep like trying to find, OK,
• 55:03
  where where's the Indonesia representation here?
• 55:06
  And they have it like 1-2 seconds and yeah, and then it's
• 55:08
  got me Indonesia. Indonesia, I think it's.
• 55:13
  The same in the. Books as.
• 55:14
  Well, one of the characters went to school with like her
• 55:18
  girlfriend. Her girlfriend went, grew up in
• 55:20
  like GIS, Yeah. Or something like that.
• 55:22
  Yeah, we're so. Starved we'd be.
• 55:23
  Like oh, these crumbs even though.
• 55:26
  Sort of recognition, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:28
  Do you? Yeah.
• 55:29
  Do you think that's like, yeah, in in that case, I'm like, what
• 55:34
  do you think is like the reason it's coming back?
• 55:39
  Do you think that there is like a underlying reason?
• 55:41
  Because we talked about like, you know, in like the 1920s, it
• 55:44
  was a sort of like that nationalism and also like, you
• 55:46
  know, I would like, want to kick out the white man, right?
• 55:50
  And then is there a yeah. Would you say yeah.
• 55:53
  Do you think that there's like a reason behind the current
• 55:55
  resurgence? Is it just sort of like TikTok
• 55:58
  or is it like, is there other like cultural things at play
• 56:00
  here? You think?
• 56:01
  I think it's. Interesting to see like the the
• 56:06
  kind of like pendulum swing when something there's too much of
• 56:11
  something, it swings to the other side, right.
• 56:13
  Yeah, we. Kind of like when we.
• 56:15
  Were growing up, it was very Western oriented when we were
• 56:19
  kids or when we were teenagers perhaps in Jakarta, it was very
• 56:22
  like you go to the BIM and you're like, yes, I'm I'm you
• 56:26
  know, wearing my Jordans and whatever.
• 56:28
  And it was very Western oriented.
• 56:30
  Yeah. And now we see like with social
• 56:34
  media, we didn't have this much social media.
• 56:36
  We didn't have any social. Media we had like.
• 56:38
  What is it like Myspace and friends?
• 56:40
  There it is. Yeah.
• 56:42
  And. Like but now with the Democrats.
• 56:46
  Democrat. Democracy of democracy.
• 56:50
  Yeah. That.
• 56:51
  Democratization, there's so many things.
• 56:54
  That you have to filter through manually, right and as teenagers
• 56:59
  do or as youths do they want to feel part of a certain.
• 57:03
  Group A certain community. Right.
• 57:06
  Yeah, and like. I, I guess that's, it's just a
• 57:09
  part of the way that I guess they're trying to figure
• 57:12
  themselves out as well. Yeah, perhaps the face, perhaps
• 57:16
  it's not, but it's, it's great to see that they're, they're
• 57:20
  trying at least. And this is an option.
• 57:23
  That's a thing. Like it wasn't an option when we
• 57:25
  were kids or when we were growing up.
• 57:27
  But now there. Is this community this like
• 57:30
  Wadda or this place that they can figure out their interests
• 57:34
  if this is for them? How great would have would it
• 57:37
  have been if it was there when we were kids as well, to have
• 57:42
  and also like the democracy that word of?
• 57:46
  Yeah, of. The of the consumer goods like
• 57:50
  we can now go to e-commerce and. Buy, you know.
• 57:54
  Cayenne Exactly. We can buy Kobaya and the Kobaya
• 57:58
  doesn't have to be the stuffy brocat that your mom wears.
• 58:01
  I wear Kobaya when I'm dancing Balanese, which is one of the
• 58:05
  hardest dances there, but I'm very comfortable in Kobaya.
• 58:09
  So there's that just because there's a lot of options now
• 58:14
  it's they're manually or we are manually figuring things out of
• 58:18
  like what do we want to present ourselves?
• 58:21
  Yeah, right. And.
• 58:22
  Like I. Want people to look at me as a
• 58:24
  very cultured queen, and so therefore I will make the
• 58:27
  choices to do that. I think it's cool, though.
• 58:30
  Yeah. And you play a major.
• 58:32
  Role in that to be fair, I mean, I you do I you can you can look
• 58:35
  at. It the leading voice.
• 58:36
  The leading. Voice.
• 58:38
  The movement. Youth.
• 58:40
  Awareness of traditional clothing, actually.
• 58:44
  Hello. Alma, Alma.
• 58:45
  Hello. Yeah, hello.
• 58:47
  Hello. What a, what a what a I'll put
• 58:49
  that in my. CV for Minister of Culture, your
• 58:53
  cabinet, yeah. Definitely 100% I'm looking for
• 58:55
  sign the contract right? After this Right, right, right,
• 58:57
  right, right. In blood, no.
• 59:02
  That is, that is funny though, because I was like, what I was
• 59:04
  scrolling through your Tik Toks, like there were a lot of
• 59:06
  comments echoing that sense. Yeah.
• 59:08
  It was like a lot of a lot of the dollies were being like, I
• 59:10
  can't find this kind of information anywhere else, you
• 59:12
  know, like, you know, it's easy to find.
• 59:14
  Like, you know, some if you want to talk about like Western
• 59:17
  stuff, it's so easy, successful. But like Indonesian, like Nah,
• 59:22
  they really have to dig in. My wife.
• 59:24
  Loves you oh. My God.
• 59:27
  Yeah, where? Is she?
• 59:28
  Where is. She she's working.
• 59:31
  Corporate job. Oh, no.
• 59:32
  What do we do? No.
• 59:34
  Yeah, but you sound like that guy who's.
• 59:36
  Like I have a girlfriend but she's in a different school.
• 59:40
  It's a different school. Don't.
• 59:43
  Worry. She.
• 59:44
  She. Works at a different.
• 59:45
  Office. And in Central Jakarta, you
• 59:49
  wouldn't know, you know? Yeah.
• 59:52
  But she was like, please, please tell her I said hi.
• 59:55
  Oh my gosh, yeah. And, and and and I think it says
• 59:58
  a lot about your impact. Oh.
• 1:00:00
  I hope so. Yeah.
• 1:00:02
  Well, it's it's interesting because that's one of the
• 1:00:04
  reasons why I created this small gathering called Kabaya Club.
• 1:00:09
  OK. Yeah, I wanted to talk about.
• 1:00:11
  That Yeah. How did that go?
• 1:00:12
  So Kabaya Club. Was like this.
• 1:00:14
  It was actually just a, a tryout of kind of offline workshop
• 1:00:20
  where I literally just like blurted at all of my research in
• 1:00:26
  regards to the kabaya. Because one of the things, so
• 1:00:28
  my, my not my masters degree, my bachelor's degree was in fashion
• 1:00:32
  design. And in any fashion course,
• 1:00:36
  especially here as well, you have to take the history of
• 1:00:39
  fashion, but it's Western fashion.
• 1:00:42
  Yeah, of course. Yeah.
• 1:00:43
  And it spans. Through like the Middle Ages all
• 1:00:45
  the way to current, you know, current contemporary fashion.
• 1:00:49
  And when I came back to Indonesia, I tried to find
• 1:00:53
  something, but to Indonesian fashion, the closest thing that
• 1:00:57
  we could find was like about the Wastra, but not even necessarily
• 1:01:01
  history. It was more about all of the,
• 1:01:02
  like, cataloguings of the different Wastra in our
• 1:01:04
  different islands. Yeah.
• 1:01:06
  And the Kobaya is so interesting because it literally the Kobaya
• 1:01:10
  has stayed the Kobaya since the 1600s till now.
• 1:01:13
  Really, it has. Not changed.
• 1:01:15
  Yeah, and timeless design. It's like, why?
• 1:01:18
  That's my first thought. Yeah, right.
• 1:01:21
  And so I started doing my own research because I'm a nerd and
• 1:01:24
  I do it at home. And yeah, I'd rather not just
• 1:01:30
  doing the Tick Tock videos. But eventually, earlier this
• 1:01:33
  year, I was like, I got a come out of my room and talk to
• 1:01:37
  people about. This, that's a tough one, right?
• 1:01:42
  Yeah. Touch grass, tell me if I'm like
• 1:01:43
  seeing things. And I started the Kabaya Club
• 1:01:47
  and yeah, it was just like a bunch of like 20 or something
• 1:01:50
  people in a cafe. And I just talked about the
• 1:01:53
  history of the Kabaya from the 1500s till 20.
• 1:01:58
  Yeah. 2020, yeah. And it was a lot.
• 1:02:00
  I was like frothing at the mouth by the end of it.
• 1:02:03
  Cuz there's so much. How?
• 1:02:04
  How? Was it?
• 1:02:04
  It was like it was about. Two hours, but it ended up being
• 1:02:08
  3:00-ish OK. Yeah.
• 1:02:11
  We love a. Yapper hence.
• 1:02:13
  Yeah. Hence the.
• 1:02:15
  Hence the. Yapping.
• 1:02:16
  No. Yeah.
• 1:02:17
  And what was the what was like the turn out like?
• 1:02:20
  What was the response from like the people who attended it was
• 1:02:23
  really. Good.
• 1:02:24
  I honestly thought I thought that it would have been just
• 1:02:27
  like other fashion history nerds or heritage space people, but we
• 1:02:34
  had people from like so many different aspects.
• 1:02:38
  We had, you know, obviously people from fashion researchers
• 1:02:41
  as well had a researcher who was kinda also chronicle the history
• 1:02:47
  of Indonesian beauty, specifically about like, you
• 1:02:51
  know, makeup and beauty in Indonesia, which.
• 1:02:53
  Was so. Interesting.
• 1:02:55
  We had a it was we had a couple of there was this one guy who
• 1:03:00
  was white and he was like in the front row.
• 1:03:02
  I think he was like the boyfriend of one of the one of
• 1:03:04
  the people that came. And obviously in my presentation
• 1:03:08
  there's a lot of white people mentioned cuz London and stuff.
• 1:03:11
  And so when I ever I talked about, like all of these white
• 1:03:16
  people, my eyes would go to him. This is your fault.
• 1:03:20
  Yeah, I'm. Sorry.
• 1:03:21
  For that one white person, Yeah. What?
• 1:03:25
  She said. Yeah, the.
• 1:03:27
  Limelight from. The ceiling, exactly.
• 1:03:29
  And he was like. Right in my eyeline.
• 1:03:32
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  Yeah, but yeah, it. Was really cool and I made these
• 1:03:35
  like kabaya paper dolls. You did that in.
• 1:03:39
  JTM. Way right?
• 1:03:40
  Yes, I did in. Yeah.
• 1:03:43
  We loved the team, we love them. They're so.
• 1:03:45
  Nice. And the space was so amazing and
• 1:03:47
  it was something like the thing also why I decided to make the
• 1:03:52
  Kobaya club offline is because unfortunately, from my own
• 1:03:56
  personal experience, the Kobaya heritage space is also quite
• 1:04:02
  exclusive. And like it's kind of
• 1:04:06
  disheartening because, you know, you want to figure out why and
• 1:04:11
  the history and like what's so important about the Kabaya?
• 1:04:14
  But when you go to these workshops, people there are like
• 1:04:18
  Tanta, tanta ebu ebu, which they have a right to be there, of
• 1:04:21
  course, of course. But like you kind of feel
• 1:04:24
  excluded and you kind of feel like kind of like, you know,
• 1:04:26
  side eyed a little. Yeah.
• 1:04:28
  And so I wanted to create a space that was anybody could
• 1:04:31
  come as well as like doing something with their hands that
• 1:04:34
  also created some sort of nostalgia because, like, I
• 1:04:38
  played with paper dolls as a kid.
• 1:04:40
  Yeah. And it was also an activity
• 1:04:41
  where people who I noticed as well, like if you're not a
• 1:04:44
  visual person, there were some people that were playing with
• 1:04:47
  the Kabaya as they listened. Yeah, because they were auditory
• 1:04:50
  learners. And so that was really an
• 1:04:52
  interesting thing to take from Kabaya Club.
• 1:04:55
  That is really interesting. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:57
  We should go in the. Kabaya Club.
• 1:05:00
  Yeah. What is?
• 1:05:05
  It. See.
• 1:05:05
  Well, we'll see. Hopefully soon, yeah.
• 1:05:08
  OK. But the previous one you had a.
• 1:05:10
  Sponsor Yeah, we. Ended up getting a sponsor,
• 1:05:13
  which was like out of the blue as well.
• 1:05:15
  But yeah, a brand called Money Con came in and Monica has
• 1:05:18
  always been very, very supportive of me, even like when
• 1:05:22
  I first did TikTok and they, they're from Bali, yeah.
• 1:05:26
  And they came from Bali and they had an event here and they came
• 1:05:28
  like all the way to the chamber way.
• 1:05:29
  And I was like, but they're. They they make, they make
• 1:05:32
  traditional clothing they like, Yeah, they make.
• 1:05:34
  A baya. They make cayenne as well.
• 1:05:36
  Like cayenne skirts and and clothes.
• 1:05:40
  Yeah, it's great they they approach.
• 1:05:42
  You with like we'd like to sponsor your things that yeah
• 1:05:45
  it's really. Interesting.
• 1:05:47
  Yeah. We've been.
• 1:05:48
  Trying to do that, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:05:50
  No. Look, are you ever concerned?
• 1:05:52
  About like that your that your community will eventually.
• 1:05:55
  Or are you ever concerned about the prospect of your community
• 1:05:58
  like evolving into those? I hate keeping communities that
• 1:06:01
  you see. Yeah.
• 1:06:02
  And how do you think you're going to prevent that?
• 1:06:04
  I have no idea. Oh yeah.
• 1:06:07
  OK, we'll figure it out when we get there.
• 1:06:09
  We'll figure it out, I guess. Yeah, because.
• 1:06:10
  To be honest. Like the Quebec club, I still
• 1:06:14
  haven't like figured it out. I feel like, yeah, you know,
• 1:06:16
  it's, it's still, I'm, I'm kind of like, I'm happy that there
• 1:06:21
  are these people that I just, I feel like just are my friends
• 1:06:24
  who I can geek out with. Not necessarily like, you know,
• 1:06:29
  community that can, I can monetize out of.
• 1:06:33
  And I myself, I'm not really a part of any, you know, kind
• 1:06:38
  community or any heritage community.
• 1:06:40
  I like dipping my toes in a lot of places 'cause I get all the
• 1:06:44
  gossip. And so I think like also it's
• 1:06:49
  'cause I'm a hoarder. I just love learning.
• 1:06:52
  And so I. Can learn something?
• 1:06:54
  Here something there, something different and knowledge hoarder.
• 1:06:56
  Exactly and so. I think like, I don't know.
• 1:06:59
  I'm. I'm not really sure.
• 1:07:00
  I hope it does ever. Doesn't ever go there.
• 1:07:03
  Yeah, but I don't know if there's money.
• 1:07:05
  I'm just gonna. The Lockheed Martin Lockheed
• 1:07:12
  Martin comes. In sponsored by Raytheon.
• 1:07:18
  Like. Palantir.
• 1:07:19
  Yeah. Just be like.
• 1:07:22
  The buttock plate, but instead of little flowers, little
• 1:07:25
  airplanes on them. Yeah.
• 1:07:28
  Just so sad actually. No, no, on the missiles that are
• 1:07:32
  about to be shot from the drone to the next president that whose
• 1:07:37
  country wants to be taken over, there's like a little bit of
• 1:07:39
  yeah, yeah, no. No, no.
• 1:07:41
  No, so you go into like the, I don't know, the, I think the
• 1:07:44
  International Defense Expo, right?
• 1:07:46
  There's like the brand new like missile and then they're being
• 1:07:49
  like you see on the side here, there's like this like buttock,
• 1:07:54
  like the the hand painted buttock.
• 1:07:57
  Yeah. And then like smash cut to like
• 1:07:58
  a documentary like interview with like the lady in like
• 1:08:01
  Pakalongan who who painted that on the missile herself US back
• 1:08:05
  regime. Change, yes, I mean slay, but
• 1:08:08
  make. Yeah, but make it slay.
• 1:08:09
  Yeah, but make it buttock. How the fuck did we get this
• 1:08:14
  side? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:17
  This is the tone of the conversation where it kind of
• 1:08:19
  goes everywhere, particularly I'm.
• 1:08:23
  Curious. Like.
• 1:08:26
  When? 'Cause you talk to you talk a
• 1:08:31
  little bit about this where like I think that there is a lot of
• 1:08:36
  Kabaya is not just like people choosing to wear things right.
• 1:08:40
  Because I feel like a lot of, for a lot of people, it's like
• 1:08:46
  it's just clothes, not that, right?
• 1:08:48
  And that's a very, very common response.
• 1:08:49
  Yeah, it's not. That dupe, yeah, it's just
• 1:08:52
  clothes, like. And where would?
• 1:08:54
  I want but like. In your experience?
• 1:08:59
  When you start talking about this and like, and, and more
• 1:09:03
  people Start learning about it, like, how important is it to
• 1:09:09
  like, not just learn like, Oh yeah, this is where it comes
• 1:09:11
  from, but also like learn like the.
• 1:09:16
  Like like the. Different conflicts that right
• 1:09:19
  either yeah that traditionally clothing either like arrives
• 1:09:23
  from like it was created through it or sometimes even like you
• 1:09:28
  know cultural or like no, no, not even cultures.
• 1:09:31
  I think it's like human conflicts that like the
• 1:09:33
  traditional clothes creates or enforces, right?
• 1:09:36
  Like what do you like? Yeah.
• 1:09:38
  Like what's your what's your take on that?
• 1:09:41
  I think. Realistically, we can't, we
• 1:09:43
  can't ask people to know the context of our clothes because
• 1:09:46
  like, we don't live in that type of world anymore.
• 1:09:49
  Unfortunately, everything's. Like.
• 1:09:52
  At the cart, at the cart, at the cart.
• 1:09:54
  Coupons, coupons, coupons. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:57
  Realistically, it's not there anymore.
• 1:09:59
  That's why I like sustainability and fashion is such a big, big
• 1:10:02
  conversation because we need that to be a conversation.
• 1:10:07
  But I think if we kind of shift it, the history of fashion is, I
• 1:10:15
  like to say that it literally mirrors everything that's going
• 1:10:18
  on in the time, but just prettier because like, like it
• 1:10:23
  literally reflects on what's going socially, economically,
• 1:10:27
  financially, but on your body. And that's a really good way to
• 1:10:34
  kind of measure out what's going on without a certain time
• 1:10:39
  period. A really good example, I'm not
• 1:10:42
  trying to be AW downer was 1965. What happened?
• 1:10:49
  There's a big. Thing going on and before 1965
• 1:10:54
  because of course we see fashion as something that's like hand in
• 1:10:57
  hand with women yeah right and one of the reasons why the
• 1:11:00
  Kubaya has stayed the same so much is also perhaps because
• 1:11:04
  Indonesian women's history kind of was at a standstill for 30
• 1:11:11
  plus years oh. Damn, that's good point.
• 1:11:13
  Yeah, right. Yeah, OK.
• 1:11:16
  Yeah, yeah. If if we look at before 1965,
• 1:11:20
  women were like active, Yeah, they even with their own kind
• 1:11:23
  kabaya. And I mentioned earlier that the
• 1:11:26
  kind kabaya was something that they they wanted as their de
• 1:11:30
  facto uniform. It was something they voted for.
• 1:11:34
  And in fact, they realized way before the white people with
• 1:11:38
  their Western fashion history, they realized that this kind
• 1:11:42
  kabaya reflects a modern Indonesian woman.
• 1:11:45
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:11:46
  And they were active. They were selling newspapers.
• 1:11:49
  They were reading, writing, being activists and everything.
• 1:11:53
  1965 happened. Women became very passive.
• 1:11:57
  Yeah. And the Kayan Kabaya took on it
• 1:12:02
  used to be Kayan Kabaya could be kind of anything that you wanted
• 1:12:05
  to look like depending on where you were in the islands, right?
• 1:12:08
  Really. Yeah, because.
• 1:12:09
  Like the people in Ambo and people in Bali, people in real,
• 1:12:14
  they all wore types of different kabayas in Kayan.
• 1:12:18
  And then 1965, the, that president, new hero, Yeah,
• 1:12:24
  became president and the wife became a figurehead.
• 1:12:28
  And that type of kind kabaya was the type that all women wore.
• 1:12:33
  And that was that. And that was it, you know,
• 1:12:36
  nothing else. That's fucking crazy.
• 1:12:38
  Yeah, when you really think about it, he was the president,
• 1:12:42
  the former president, the hero was the what was the one?
• 1:12:47
  What was the one that sort of monotonized if you were a lot of
• 1:12:51
  Indonesian culture? Yeah.
• 1:12:52
  That was why rice became such a major staple in Indonesian.
• 1:12:56
  Yeah. I didn't realize culture and
• 1:12:59
  fashion also was also affected by.
• 1:13:01
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the longest time, when you
• 1:13:04
  think about sorry, when you think about the kabaya that the
• 1:13:08
  you wear the kind with, that's batik.
• 1:13:10
  Yeah. But like, there's so many Wasps
• 1:13:13
  around Indonesia. Why just batik?
• 1:13:15
  Yeah, of course. Yeah.
• 1:13:16
  Because the. Wife was Princess of Marco
• 1:13:19
  Nagara Jawa Solo. Yeah.
• 1:13:22
  So that's what you wear the your kabaya with.
• 1:13:24
  So you wear the batik with it. I'm starting to think this guy.
• 1:13:27
  Wasn't so good after all. I don't know.
• 1:13:30
  He's a hero, though. He's.
• 1:13:31
  A hero, though, he's a really good.
• 1:13:33
  PR his wife. What about his son-in-law?
• 1:13:38
  I've been hearing things about him.
• 1:13:43
  Anyway, yeah, countdown. To us, go to jail.
• 1:13:46
  That. Java Centrism.
• 1:13:49
  Yeah, it is. It is.
• 1:13:50
  In full strength. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:52
  But it was not just that. Like yeah, I love.
• 1:13:54
  Like yeah, like I love yeah, like they like So I think the
• 1:14:01
  like the like the academic term from it is like Ibwisema Nagara,
• 1:14:04
  right, the state Ibwisema. Yes.
• 1:14:10
  Where it's sort of like, oh, women have like, they become
• 1:14:17
  like, I don't like, like, like the nurturing mother of the
• 1:14:21
  state itself, right. And that's kind of your role.
• 1:14:24
  Yeah. Like how, how much of that, like
• 1:14:28
  impacted like Kabaya or rather like how much did Kabaya
• 1:14:33
  contribute to that? I think sure, yeah, it shifted.
• 1:14:38
  A lot because The thing is with the project of nation building
• 1:14:42
  in Indonesia, especially before and after independence.
• 1:14:46
  Sorry, I'm like history glasses on, please go ahead but before
• 1:14:51
  and after women had a very active role in defining who they
• 1:14:56
  were in the nation. They realized that their codrat
• 1:15:00
  or their their what is codrat in English like their true calling
• 1:15:07
  I. Guess.
• 1:15:09
  Was still to be a mother, but to be able to be a good mother, you
• 1:15:14
  also had to be educated. So you had to read, you had to
• 1:15:18
  understand how to manage a household financially.
• 1:15:21
  You had to know how to, you know, educate your child.
• 1:15:24
  And maybe if your husband wants like, or if you want some extra
• 1:15:29
  money, you had to be skilled enough to be able to create a
• 1:15:32
  second income. So that was an agency that these
• 1:15:36
  Indonesian women had, Unfortunately, because of the
• 1:15:40
  effects of 1965 specifically on a certain group of women that
• 1:15:46
  was scapegoated during the events, it was very taboo to be
• 1:15:54
  a active agency Felt, you know, someone.
• 1:15:59
  Yeah, it was very dangerous. Yeah.
• 1:16:01
  Because if you were seen using your voice, then you could be
• 1:16:07
  stamped with this very dangerous aspect of, you know, and and
• 1:16:12
  labeled a communist. Exactly and.
• 1:16:14
  That was like the the worst thing that can happen because
• 1:16:17
  you can be taken away just like that.
• 1:16:18
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:16:19
  And so women became very, very passive.
• 1:16:21
  And in terms of the kind Kabaya after 1965, especially during
• 1:16:27
  Suharto era, there was the Pekaka, there was a derma
• 1:16:30
  Juanita. And specifically derma Juanita
• 1:16:33
  is and I forget one more organization.
• 1:16:37
  I forget. But those organizations
• 1:16:40
  basically like let's say I had a husband who was a pan ass and I
• 1:16:45
  would be automatically dead Malanita because my husband is a
• 1:16:49
  pan ass. And I had to do like a lot of
• 1:16:51
  these social events and whatever.
• 1:16:54
  And but I was in the dead Malanita because my husband, not
• 1:16:58
  because of my achievements, because of my.
• 1:17:01
  Yeah, and I don't get paid. But I need to do all of those
• 1:17:05
  things. Yeah, all of the functions.
• 1:17:07
  And that was the direct impact of the, you know, New Order era,
• 1:17:12
  where they had to kind of shape a space for women that was
• 1:17:18
  submissive to the husband. Right?
• 1:17:21
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:17:21
  Yeah, and. What did the Dharma Anita were?
• 1:17:24
  They were the kind goodbye. They always had to look nice
• 1:17:29
  because that's what women should be.
• 1:17:31
  They need to look nice. They need to look pretty.
• 1:17:34
  They need still to be a mother because again, that's the
• 1:17:37
  quadrant, Juanita. But you can't be that active.
• 1:17:41
  You need to support your wife and support your kids.
• 1:17:45
  You need to make sure that your house is clean and that's it.
• 1:17:48
  No more writing to newspapers, no more going out and, you know,
• 1:17:53
  selling the things that you want to sell with your small
• 1:17:55
  business. None of that because you need to
• 1:17:57
  stay with your husband. The more independent thought.
• 1:18:00
  Basically, yeah. So instead.
• 1:18:01
  Of like, oh, I'm going to make a better role for my kids by like,
• 1:18:05
  via, I don't know, like political liberation, I guess in
• 1:18:06
  action. Yeah.
• 1:18:07
  Being like, I'm gonna make the world better place by, like,
• 1:18:10
  doing what my husband tells me. Exactly.
• 1:18:12
  Like how they? Kind of like diminished Hari
• 1:18:14
  Karthi. You need to be just exactly
• 1:18:16
  where. Kabaya and look.
• 1:18:17
  Nice. Yeah, Yeah, that.
• 1:18:19
  That was everything. I've got at all what?
• 1:18:21
  Company. Encompassed things represented.
• 1:18:23
  At. All piggybacking off.
• 1:18:25
  Of that Hari Ibu National now, which is 22nd of December, it
• 1:18:29
  was supposed to be Hari Juanita. Ibu means Juanita in general,
• 1:18:33
  yeah, But then in Warba, yeah, it became Hari Ebu, because you
• 1:18:38
  weren't a woman if you weren't ebu.
• 1:18:40
  Wait. It was.
• 1:18:41
  So there was Hari Wan International prior to Hari Ebu
• 1:18:43
  National? Yeah, the Hari Wan.
• 1:18:45
  International, I believe was created in 1928 after the
• 1:18:48
  women's Congress. Yeah, wow.
• 1:18:50
  I'm learning so many new. I'm I'm gonna tell this to.
• 1:18:54
  My mom next time? Yeah.
• 1:18:56
  When? She says.
• 1:18:57
  Why? Why you're gonna mansplate.
• 1:18:59
  Yeah, you're gonna mansplate, dear.
• 1:19:01
  Mom. Yeah, about.
• 1:19:02
  Women. 'S day, yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:06
  Yeah, yeah. My mom's gonna be like.
• 1:19:08
  Why didn't you say, you know, jump in Islam and Hari?
• 1:19:11
  I'm like, Mom, Actually, mom, did you know?
• 1:19:14
  Actually, yeah. I'm gonna stop you right there,
• 1:19:17
  yeah. Yeah, I'm.
• 1:19:18
  Just. Trying to empower.
• 1:19:19
  You, mom. Listen to me, I am a man.
• 1:19:24
  I'm trying to empower you. Speaking.
• 1:19:26
  Of which? A lot of people, I not, not a
• 1:19:29
  lot of people, but I know that I've, I've asked people about
• 1:19:32
  this before. What do you think, What do you
• 1:19:33
  think about these women's associations that are associated
• 1:19:40
  to certain groups? I'm not going to say what groups
• 1:19:44
  they are, but they have guns. Sometimes they have.
• 1:19:49
  Airplanes and other times they have ships, but I mean the the
• 1:19:56
  especially when you talk to some of the members, they argue that
• 1:19:59
  it is it is inherently progressive because because it
• 1:20:05
  allows women of members of the armed forces to actually play a
• 1:20:12
  role. But others argue that it is in
• 1:20:16
  fact regressive and as you mentioned earlier, you know
• 1:20:21
  stands to. And reinforce the patriarchy
• 1:20:25
  rather than actually providing these women with any voice at
• 1:20:31
  all or any power to actually affect, say, things like policy,
• 1:20:36
  for example. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:37
  What would you? Say should be done about that.
• 1:20:43
  What do you think? Cause 'cause cause 'cause cause
• 1:20:47
  'cause in some ways I, I, I understand.
• 1:20:49
  I understand a lot about, you know, the dark history.
• 1:20:53
  Of of. Of all these initiatives that
• 1:20:56
  that I've been started that were started under the new order.
• 1:20:58
  But at the same time, when, when, when a movement or when a
• 1:21:03
  certain type of policy, let's say is is is labeled, is labeled
• 1:21:11
  as inclusive, even though in reality it's actually
• 1:21:16
  regressive. It's quite difficult to try to
• 1:21:19
  to try to to try to, you know, to try to overcome that
• 1:21:27
  perception. Yeah, Right.
• 1:21:28
  And So what do you think should be done about these
• 1:21:31
  organizations? Sure.
• 1:21:32
  What do you think should be done to, let's say, improve how these
• 1:21:37
  organizations empower women? Sure.
• 1:21:42
  This might be like more of a personal take because my mom was
• 1:21:45
  in Dharma where I thought most of her, I guess active career
• 1:21:50
  because of my dad and because she was in Denma Juanita outside
• 1:21:57
  of Indonesia, I was able to see the actual activities of Denma
• 1:22:01
  Juanita. And I think for the most part,
• 1:22:05
  yes, it is. It is beneficial, especially
• 1:22:08
  like as a soft diplomacy showing that these are Indonesian women
• 1:22:12
  and they are trying to kind of reach out to the communities
• 1:22:15
  wherever they are. You know, I think in a way it
• 1:22:18
  can be very, very useful. But also on the other side of my
• 1:22:23
  cousin is now Dadmawanitha in the same Dadmawanitha as my mom.
• 1:22:28
  And she's like, she has a master's degree.
• 1:22:30
  And so it's like it's difficult for her to like figure out why
• 1:22:35
  it's so important for her to be in Dadmawanitha because she has
• 1:22:39
  contacts. She like, she's able to, you
• 1:22:43
  know, figure out the actual policy that her husband is
• 1:22:46
  doing. Yeah.
• 1:22:47
  Meanwhile, she's supposed to be like giving out food to.
• 1:22:51
  It's a little silly. Yeah.
• 1:22:53
  Exactly. It's not degrading, yeah.
• 1:22:55
  And I think. Like degrading?
• 1:22:58
  Yeah. And I think.
• 1:22:59
  Like for women? It's not my place, I think like.
• 1:23:06
  There, there should be a way to bring back to or at least to
• 1:23:09
  drag it to the modern era where first of all, pay these women.
• 1:23:16
  Yes. Yeah, Right.
• 1:23:18
  Holy shit. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
• 1:23:23
  And then to actually bring them with their own type of agency
• 1:23:27
  and on what can work and what cannot work.
• 1:23:32
  Like the? The big thing is like what is
• 1:23:35
  submissive and what is non submissive, right?
• 1:23:38
  But I don't know, I kind of think it's like.
• 1:23:42
  It's hard because the status. Quo is like the the demo money
• 1:23:46
  that supports the the men. So it's like, do you think it
• 1:23:49
  should just be? Abolished altogether.
• 1:23:51
  I don't I. Think it can be like like merged
• 1:23:55
  into something else like social boudea or something, I don't
• 1:23:58
  know. Yeah.
• 1:24:00
  Because at the end of the day, a lot of the like activities is
• 1:24:05
  for social boudea. Yeah.
• 1:24:06
  What's? Social Boudea.
• 1:24:07
  In English social and culture. Social and cultural.
• 1:24:13
  Activities. Yeah, maybe they can just make
• 1:24:15
  it. Maybe they can just make it
• 1:24:16
  unisex. Just not yeah.
• 1:24:18
  Just not have it. Kind of like why?
• 1:24:20
  Does it have to be only women? Exactly.
• 1:24:21
  If it's for like, social cultural exchange, you know,
• 1:24:24
  what about men? What's the?
• 1:24:26
  What's the gender? Neutral term for spouse or.
• 1:24:30
  Partner Indonesia. No, but.
• 1:24:32
  In Indonesia. There you go, Dharma just.
• 1:24:37
  Dharma, Yeah. Dharma.
• 1:24:38
  Dharma that's. Another.
• 1:24:40
  Dharman and women. Dharman Well, no.
• 1:24:42
  We want to be inclusive of all genders.
• 1:24:44
  So yeah. Dharman Dhar Women Are them dark
• 1:24:47
  people? Dark people?
• 1:24:49
  Yeah, dark people. Dharma, I've.
• 1:24:53
  No, yeah, I remember this because my friend told me about
• 1:24:55
  it, but I also read it in, you know, in state where, yeah,
• 1:25:00
  initially Dharma wanted. It was also a form of like.
• 1:25:05
  Women trying. To yes, they were technically
• 1:25:09
  serving patriarchy because that was the best we can do, but it
• 1:25:12
  was also for them to like, I don't know, unionize, I guess,
• 1:25:16
  right. And, and this is like, and this
• 1:25:17
  like relates to something else that I read off of TikTok, off
• 1:25:21
  of a book, off a whatever. I can't really, I can't remember
• 1:25:23
  what it is where it's like, oh, like, you know, we gossip today
• 1:25:28
  is very demeaning as a term, right?
• 1:25:30
  But gossip used to be, like, the way women kept, like, the
• 1:25:35
  village in check, right? Where like, oh, like, oh, you
• 1:25:39
  see, like someone's man, like, you know, sneaking off with
• 1:25:41
  like, yeah, a warning. Yeah, we'll be like we will
• 1:25:44
  start. The the, the the rumor mill
• 1:25:46
  begins, right. Yeah.
• 1:25:47
  And wasn't that one of one of like the reasons that Dharma
• 1:25:50
  Anita was made? Like, wasn't there like, I can't
• 1:25:54
  remember whether it was like an abusive case or something.
• 1:25:56
  And then like the, I think like, like, you know, the wife of like
• 1:26:03
  our soon to be or actually now, now a national hero, right.
• 1:26:07
  I think she stepped in to like, I don't know, just like she
• 1:26:13
  spoke to her husband and then her husband spoke to like one of
• 1:26:16
  the other like generals and basically to like, to like get
• 1:26:19
  this like captain or whatever in line.
• 1:26:21
  Right. Wasn't that like, yeah.
• 1:26:24
  Wasn't that like one of the reasons?
• 1:26:25
  Yeah. What is that also like one of
• 1:26:26
  the ways that Dharma went to also function as sort of like,
• 1:26:29
  yeah, women's union? I don't.
• 1:26:33
  It's hard for me to think of another term other than like,
• 1:26:35
  yeah, it's just like a way to like band together perhaps.
• 1:26:39
  Perhaps as well, because again, like.
• 1:26:42
  At the end of the day, people. Will always seek to find
• 1:26:44
  community, right And perhaps it was a kind of a backbone for
• 1:26:49
  these women who were they needed to be passive, but in a way
• 1:26:55
  active as well. And it was also such a stringent
• 1:26:59
  and stifled kind of societal place to be, I assume right when
• 1:27:06
  especially like if you're in the higher rungs of the dead
• 1:27:09
  Mawanita, if you're like, let's say your spouse is like a
• 1:27:13
  minister or something, There's a certain aspect of confinement.
• 1:27:18
  I assume so perhaps yeah, there there was a way of these women
• 1:27:23
  reaching out to each other and supporting each other in a way
• 1:27:27
  that they can, but there were still protocols in turn in in in
• 1:27:30
  place for them. Yeah.
• 1:27:33
  It's it's an interesting that only thing is and and Pekaka and
• 1:27:38
  I forget the name for the armed forces.
• 1:27:40
  It's such an interesting thing that I don't think we've we've
• 1:27:45
  we have in other cultures other than Indonesia, yeah, I can't
• 1:27:48
  think of any. I mean, there isn't there isn't
• 1:27:53
  there? There definitely isn't like a
• 1:27:54
  spousal association in the US, I don't think.
• 1:27:57
  Spousal. Association.
• 1:27:59
  You mean like yeah, there. Might be in.
• 1:28:02
  Other countries maybe, but might be informal.
• 1:28:05
  Yeah, might be an informal. Thing, yeah, you know, the lives
• 1:28:08
  of police officers that more like astronauts, wives.
• 1:28:11
  Firefighters wives isn't. Like that?
• 1:28:13
  Yeah, yeah, I know they exist informally, but yeah, I don't
• 1:28:16
  think we. Yeah, I think it's just one of
• 1:28:18
  the very interesting ways where like the state really adopted it
• 1:28:21
  and like made it an institution, formalized it.
• 1:28:25
  I think it's like what one of the things that make like that
• 1:28:27
  Mawanita, like, you know, like stateism in Indonesia just.
• 1:28:31
  Truly. Special as like, you know, as
• 1:28:34
  like a sociological study of being like, oh, this is what
• 1:28:37
  happens when. Yeah, yeah, just goes to.
• 1:28:40
  Show how how like tight that hero president man was kind of
• 1:28:45
  trying to keep everything together.
• 1:28:47
  Oh yeah, yeah, that is. True president.
• 1:28:49
  Yeah, it's crazy. Like somehow like.
• 1:28:51
  The Indonesian state likes to like get it's hands on to like
• 1:28:55
  absolutely everything that is here, right?
• 1:28:58
  Because that's not just like a like a they're like, like, yeah,
• 1:29:02
  it's not just like a devil. And that thing where it's like,
• 1:29:03
  I think I feel like in other things like our films, our
• 1:29:06
  cultures, our music, this kind of be like there's always like
• 1:29:08
  they're trying to seep in making a thing.
• 1:29:11
  I'll have AI have an interesting thing about that is you know how
• 1:29:14
  sometimes when you go to like like in the in the deeper combos
• 1:29:21
  and stuff like that, they have like not the little gates.
• 1:29:25
  Yeah, yeah, Little. Gates with the.
• 1:29:27
  Augustus yeah, yeah, the. Gapura.
• 1:29:30
  Yeah, apparently they had that had something to do with not
• 1:29:33
  being a communist at one point because.
• 1:29:36
  Because that was if you wanted to put that gate on your this
• 1:29:42
  hour in front of your house, you had to pay the armed forces to
• 1:29:46
  be able to build that. And then in Orba, the Arte or
• 1:29:52
  the villages or whatever, they had those gates erected and it
• 1:29:56
  would be washed and cleaned because it was showcased how
• 1:29:59
  washed and cleaned their villages and washed and clean
• 1:30:02
  from communism. There were no communists in our
• 1:30:05
  village. So it literally seeped into like
• 1:30:09
  the architecture. Yeah, it's crazy.
• 1:30:11
  Gloria. Buncano was not Gloria Buncano.
• 1:30:14
  What was it before I? Can't remember.
• 1:30:16
  But it was just recently, like I think after he fell in 98, it
• 1:30:21
  was put back as Gloria Buncano. That's crazy.
• 1:30:26
  You really suck. Didn't you?
• 1:30:30
  That's. Like the like this is the
• 1:30:31
  nation's silence. The hero bro.
• 1:30:34
  You're insulting. A national hero, bro.
• 1:30:35
  Oh man. Oh no.
• 1:30:36
  Oh no, I got to get. You.
• 1:30:38
  Oh no. Oh.
• 1:30:39
  No. What are we going to do if they
• 1:30:40
  could understand? Demonetized.
• 1:30:43
  If they could understand. English would be in big trouble.
• 1:30:48
  Yeah. The Oh God, I had no idea.
• 1:30:52
  Wow, do you? Have do you have do you have
• 1:30:54
  further questions? No, yeah, like, sorry, sorry I
• 1:30:58
  was. So stunned.
• 1:30:59
  Like letting everyone melting. Your mind I'm.
• 1:31:03
  So good, I love. Melting my mind.
• 1:31:06
  I think so. Here's the thing now that we
• 1:31:12
  have the sort of like the grasp on like, oh, like, you know, all
• 1:31:15
  the ways that like. Culture has you.
• 1:31:18
  Know they gave like like gave way to like or like gave birth.
• 1:31:24
  I don't like the word birth created I guess like Kabaya and
• 1:31:28
  Abukainen's culture and then but also Kabaya and Ricardian and
• 1:31:32
  that kind of like so what's the word they use like Wastra, is
• 1:31:35
  that like an umbrella? OK yeah.
• 1:31:38
  So like Wastra also like sort of like reinforces or like carries
• 1:31:42
  culture forward, right? So I think the next thing that I
• 1:31:46
  want to, I think like the last thing that I want to touch on
• 1:31:49
  because this probably is going to like run along as well.
• 1:31:52
  It's like, what do we do now? Because I feel like because we
• 1:31:59
  just talked about like we just spent like 30 minutes on that
• 1:32:02
  where it's like it's not that big, bro.
• 1:32:03
  Like yes, it is right. It is right And like.
• 1:32:10
  What are? The things that I think now that
• 1:32:14
  clothes are coming like that doing like what star is coming
• 1:32:17
  back? We're trying to like reclaim it,
• 1:32:19
  doing everything. I was like, what are some of the
• 1:32:21
  things that like we want to watch out for?
• 1:32:23
  Like what are some of the things that I think yeah, because.
• 1:32:28
  And I'm just going to use this one example to start off the
• 1:32:30
  conversation is like. I remember this because like you
• 1:32:35
  had a take, but so did like a billion other people on the
• 1:32:37
  Internet, right. I think it like the was it like
• 1:32:43
  an U game or like a graduation? Yeah.
• 1:32:45
  Yeah, Was it a? Game or itebe?
• 1:32:48
  I think it was itebe. Itebe.
• 1:32:49
  Yeah, so there. Was a wisu that itebe and like I
• 1:32:54
  think like I don't yeah like I don't know what their pronouns
• 1:33:00
  are, but I think they were like I think they were like, you
• 1:33:03
  know, their assigned male at birth and they were wearing the
• 1:33:06
  yeah I I don't think they were even like trans.
• 1:33:08
  I think they were just a form of like expression, Yeah, where
• 1:33:11
  they were wearing the kabaya and people, they were mad, right?
• 1:33:17
  They were wearing kabaya during. The graduation, yeah.
• 1:33:19
  So like this? Yeah.
• 1:33:21
  This this person was like wearing the Kabaya.
• 1:33:24
  And a lot of people like Kabaya is only for women.
• 1:33:27
  Yeah, you can wear. That sorry.
• 1:33:29
  Yeah, you can wear that. Kabaya is only for women.
• 1:33:32
  And yeah, so I. Yeah, discuss.
• 1:33:38
  What? Was.
• 1:33:39
  Your yeah, I remember that you had a take on that where you
• 1:33:41
  went into like, yeah. Like no.
• 1:33:45
  Not but like you went into like the una undang, right?
• 1:33:47
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What?
• 1:33:49
  Yeah, how did? Your research into that go, how
• 1:33:51
  did it make you feel too? Yeah, that's interesting.
• 1:33:53
  Because like even till now, I cannot find an official Prenta
• 1:33:58
  und Undang that specifically says that Gaenkubaya is what
• 1:34:03
  Indonesian people, Indonesian women wear.
• 1:34:06
  Because like in like in national protocols, there is a specific
• 1:34:12
  line of like what? Like it's, let's say you get an
• 1:34:14
  invitation and it's black tie or, but you're not sure not it's
• 1:34:17
  like what you can wear specifically for Gaenkubaya.
• 1:34:20
  I have not found it. It literally is like a soft, not
• 1:34:24
  a software rule. It's a hard unwritten rule that
• 1:34:27
  if you want to look good and if you want to look rasnee as a
• 1:34:30
  woman, you wear the kind kabaya. And I've talked to other kabaya
• 1:34:36
  academics about this as well, and they agree that there isn't
• 1:34:40
  1. But it's always been adopted as
• 1:34:44
  the de facto, you know, war, what people, what women, what
• 1:34:48
  women wear, right? And I went into that argument
• 1:34:53
  seeing that, saying that in terms of function, the kabaya is
• 1:34:59
  a garment, it's a top. It's something that we wear over
• 1:35:02
  our torso, right? And we already see now with it,
• 1:35:11
  what's the word democratization. We.
• 1:35:15
  Got there of. A.
• 1:35:16
  Of a of like clothes, of being it being so cheap and
• 1:35:20
  accessible, it being the knowledge being accessible.
• 1:35:26
  Why are we gender policing when we should be talking about the
• 1:35:30
  actual significance of why the Kobaya matters to Indonesian
• 1:35:35
  history? I think it's so, so much
• 1:35:37
  relevance if you're talking about it from a women's history
• 1:35:41
  point of view, why the Kobaya belongs to women.
• 1:35:45
  But even there the history is spotty because of arba.
• 1:35:49
  So, so like, I feel like if we want to talk about gender
• 1:35:55
  policing and if, if the Kobaya can be borne by men or the
• 1:36:01
  kabaya's already been worn by men.
• 1:36:03
  Look at the Maestro Nidididitawa, look at Raminta
• 1:36:08
  Ninja Jakarta. Yeah, they all wear kabaya and
• 1:36:12
  their dances. But what's interesting is when
• 1:36:15
  men wear the kabaya, it's never to mock women.
• 1:36:18
  It's to celebrate women. Yeah.
• 1:36:20
  Yeah. So yes, technically the Kabaya
• 1:36:22
  is a gendered symbol of Indonesian women.
• 1:36:26
  But whenever a man wears the kabaya, it's never to mock that
• 1:36:31
  symbol. It's to celebrate it.
• 1:36:33
  And so that in itself should be like something significant
• 1:36:37
  enough to allow that person at least to wear the kabaya,
• 1:36:43
  especially during a big ceremony, because he wanted to
• 1:36:46
  wear it as an expression of himself.
• 1:36:48
  And it's an expression of heritage.
• 1:36:51
  So yeah, I thought, I think like I actually made a huge academic
• 1:36:56
  paper on this specific thing for like publication and OK.
• 1:37:02
  Yeah, I, I. Brought in like all of these,
• 1:37:04
  you know, Western philosophers and whatever, but basically my
• 1:37:07
  whole thing is like the functionality of a garments to
• 1:37:10
  be worn. If it's not worn, then it's just
• 1:37:12
  a piece of cloth. And if like a symbol shouldn't
• 1:37:15
  be a piece of cloth, that's like discarded, getting all the way
• 1:37:19
  down to the. Very fundamental, yeah.
• 1:37:22
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the Kobei is
• 1:37:24
  interesting. It is a symbol, but yeah, it is
• 1:37:26
  still a garment because it's continuously worn.
• 1:37:29
  And if like, if there are people that want to say like, oh, but
• 1:37:32
  it's tradition and it shouldn't be.
• 1:37:35
  There's a pakam, you know? Yeah, Yeah.
• 1:37:39
  The pakam is, if you want to talk about the specifics of it,
• 1:37:42
  the Kabaya pakam is only into the Javanese courts.
• 1:37:46
  Yeah, right. What is OK?
• 1:37:46
  What is the? Indonesian word for pakam?
• 1:37:50
  Sorry, the English word for pakam is so.
• 1:37:53
  It's a, it's almost like a must or like a yeah, like a hard
• 1:37:57
  practice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:37:58
  Like. Like a, Like a.
• 1:38:00
  It's something that cannot be compromised.
• 1:38:02
  Closed practice. Perhaps maybe a closed practice
• 1:38:05
  something? Like that maybe.
• 1:38:06
  I can't think of the right term for it though.
• 1:38:09
  Yeah, like you. Have to wear it then that way
• 1:38:11
  because mandatory, yeah. Mandatory, yeah.
• 1:38:13
  OK. Yeah, sure.
• 1:38:14
  In in Javanese culture, absolutely.
• 1:38:17
  In the courts of Surakarta and Jakarta.
• 1:38:19
  But then that's one island and so many islands, you know, so
• 1:38:25
  you can't like just, you know, deny that.
• 1:38:28
  And as well as like if, if, if we want to talk about in terms
• 1:38:34
  of like who can where and what we our ancestors have been
• 1:38:40
  wearing, the kind like there, there if you really want to get
• 1:38:44
  into it in terms of gender policing.
• 1:38:46
  There's always been like a little different inbetweens of
• 1:38:50
  genders in our own ancestry way back when.
• 1:38:54
  Never so binary. Yeah.
• 1:38:55
  So it's a very. Like, it's a very muddy
• 1:38:58
  argument. If you want to kind of get into
• 1:39:01
  it, it just kind of, if you're very strong opinionated on it,
• 1:39:05
  it also shows how you see the world as well and reflects on
• 1:39:10
  your beliefs as well. Yeah, it's almost like.
• 1:39:13
  People. Really love Wastra.
• 1:39:16
  Because of how it kind of like, you know, reinforces their
• 1:39:19
  already existing political beliefs.
• 1:39:21
  Yeah, It's really. Interesting.
• 1:39:24
  I'm, I'm actually, I want to ask you a question.
• 1:39:26
  Oh, OK. I'm, I'm curious about your
• 1:39:28
  thoughts on that, especially because, you know, I think, I
• 1:39:33
  think. You're not.
• 1:39:35
  I know you're not a. Complete expert in gender
• 1:39:37
  studies. But yeah, you are quite well
• 1:39:39
  read on that. And I'm curious about I'm, I'm
• 1:39:43
  curious about the the role of not not role necessarily, but.
• 1:39:53
  The role that. The role that queer culture
• 1:39:56
  plays in advancing certain traditions and in traditional
• 1:40:04
  clothing, especially introducing them to, let's say, a gender
• 1:40:10
  that only wears T-shirts and jeans and dad shoes on the
• 1:40:16
  daily. Yeah, I.
• 1:40:19
  Think no, I think I'm going to circle back to like what you
• 1:40:23
  said, right with like what I mean then and like other forms
• 1:40:27
  of like. Wait, what he does does it?
• 1:40:29
  Technically count as a drag performance.
• 1:40:33
  Yeah. OK, yeah, no, yeah, I think in a
• 1:40:36
  lot of ways can like, you know, can't.
• 1:40:39
  I can't speak for like every queer, but like, I think having
• 1:40:45
  awareness alongside tradition is a very, very healthy way to keep
• 1:40:49
  tradition from becoming. I don't know a fascist.
• 1:40:54
  Monolist, I guess if you look at every like fascist like thing,
• 1:40:57
  they kind of they really, really love to like, you know, go to
• 1:41:01
  museums and like, you know, they're like, you know, never
• 1:41:04
  trust the Twitter bio with like a like a Roman statue on it,
• 1:41:08
  right. They love they love their like
• 1:41:10
  little Roman like buildings and statue.
• 1:41:12
  But yeah, because I think that tradition kind of really feeds
• 1:41:14
  into a lot of people. But like what you said like I
• 1:41:18
  think with like. There's a lot of like drag in.
• 1:41:26
  That, you know in that performance yeah, all right and
• 1:41:28
  then when what that person wear to their wisuda and honestly,
• 1:41:33
  yeah, you're right. Like I think drag is very, very
• 1:41:35
  rarely about like making fun of women.
• 1:41:38
  No, I think I think a lot of people try to make it out that
• 1:41:43
  way because they have because they already already feel a
• 1:41:47
  certain way about women or like they.
• 1:41:50
  Already. Or, or, or, or it's about women
• 1:41:52
  who already feel a certain way about their status and who they
• 1:41:54
  are, right. And a lot.
• 1:41:55
  And like, for a lot of times, like drag is about like, yeah,
• 1:42:00
  men celebrating feminine presentation, sort of like, you
• 1:42:08
  know, kind of like, you know. 'Cause I I think the
• 1:42:11
  implications. Of like, Oh yeah, being
• 1:42:13
  masculine is not cool enough. It's not fun enough.
• 1:42:16
  And that's why we that's why yes, drag performances are so
• 1:42:19
  fun, right? Yeah.
• 1:42:21
  Performances like. Dances, there's like props and
• 1:42:23
  there's everything. And so, yeah, my my take on that
• 1:42:26
  is I think like, yeah, that there is it, it helps like
• 1:42:35
  traditions and customs and heritage retain the meaning of
• 1:42:41
  their intention, but it also kind of keeps it campy enough
• 1:42:47
  that it can never really be used to like, you know, exclude.
• 1:42:52
  Other. People or like hurt other
• 1:42:54
  people, right? Because like, you know, if
• 1:42:56
  something's campy, it's really hard to like, you know, like
• 1:43:01
  make it violent. I think it makes it more
• 1:43:03
  difficult for like, you know? Like like the.
• 1:43:05
  The state or any sort of like oppressive force to sort of like
• 1:43:09
  steal and repurpose it, right, Because like they want to be
• 1:43:12
  like strong. I was like, no, no, like duh,
• 1:43:14
  duh. I like yeah, there's a.
• 1:43:15
  Feminization aspect to it, yeah. And.
• 1:43:18
  They they find it really hard to work with make it it's more like
• 1:43:23
  it's very like fluid and loose and then they can't really use
• 1:43:26
  that. So like yeah.
• 1:43:28
  And I think yeah, sure. And, and also like, yeah,
• 1:43:33
  clothes are clothes, you know, like, yes, they do have like
• 1:43:38
  symbolic significance, but like, clothes are just like clothes.
• 1:43:43
  They functionally used. To cover our bodies.
• 1:43:46
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like I would go.
• 1:43:48
  Even further and say that like, at least like the way that the
• 1:43:51
  way that I look at this may not be the case for everybody, but
• 1:43:53
  the way that I look at it, gender is clothes, yeah.
• 1:43:56
  Yeah, right. Like, yeah, you know.
• 1:43:58
  Like some people are like today I feel, you know, some people
• 1:44:03
  will go out and be like, look, today we're like feel like
• 1:44:05
  wearing my red jacket today. I feel like wearing my green
• 1:44:08
  jacket. Yeah, sometimes I'm also being
• 1:44:10
  like today I feel like presenting more masculine and on
• 1:44:16
  some of the days being like, oh, today's like maybe maybe it's
• 1:44:19
  like a oh, it's like a girl's night out.
• 1:44:20
  It's like my friend's birthday. I want to go to like a club, be
• 1:44:23
  like, you know what, I want to like Feb it up.
• 1:44:25
  I want to wear more skirts or I want to wear more like jewellery
• 1:44:29
  and stuff like that. And so in a lot of ways it's
• 1:44:31
  kind of being like, it's more like a way to like identify
• 1:44:36
  myself and like have fun with other people, right?
• 1:44:40
  I'm pretty sure that like whoever that person was went to
• 1:44:42
  the Wisuda. I'm pretty sure they wanted.
• 1:44:46
  They probably had like friends in the crowd who loved them
• 1:44:49
  exactly as. They are.
• 1:44:50
  And like, maybe that was like a very normal passe thing for them
• 1:44:55
  to do, to be like, Oh yeah, of course, like, and maybe it was a
• 1:44:58
  way for them to celebrate with those people, right.
• 1:45:01
  And so, yeah, that's kind of like the.
• 1:45:05
  I'm. Sorry, I went so much in circles
• 1:45:07
  that I no I understand you can. Not only you, you answered it
• 1:45:09
  perfectly. And I think it is is a great way
• 1:45:12
  that I can summarize it by by by quoting one of my one of my most
• 1:45:21
  favorite people, RuPaul. Yeah.
• 1:45:25
  We're all born naked. And the rest is drag exactly.
• 1:45:29
  So such a diva for that. But.
• 1:45:32
  And now we've. Vogged.
• 1:45:37
  No for that. Yeah, I tried being.
• 1:45:40
  Masculine and. Feel like you hated?
• 1:45:43
  It bro is that you failed boring man.
• 1:45:46
  Oh my gosh. It is boring.
• 1:45:47
  Gosh, we actually wanted. To one of the things one of the
• 1:45:50
  one of the one of the reasons actually one one of the things
• 1:45:53
  that I propose that we invite you to talk about was actually
• 1:45:56
  about the patriarchy because. We just wanted to.
• 1:45:59
  Complain about, you know. Yeah, yeah, while I'm.
• 1:46:03
  Surrounded by men here, yeah. We men, we we.
• 1:46:07
  Really like. Complain.
• 1:46:08
  About people, please, please. Validate our feminism?
• 1:46:11
  Yeah. Oh, didn't.
• 1:46:12
  You know, I'm taking away all of the podcast mics because y'all
• 1:46:15
  are, y'all are done. Did we fail the test?
• 1:46:19
  No, no, this was a, this was a secret inspection.
• 1:46:22
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No more.
• 1:46:23
  Mics for you man has enough podcasting?
• 1:46:27
  Exactly. We have too many straight.
• 1:46:29
  Mail, podcasts, No real. Oh, right, What was your point?
• 1:46:35
  Oh no, no, that was my point. Yeah, no, yeah, I think yeah.
• 1:46:39
  Everyone was born. Naked, Yeah.
• 1:46:40
  The rest is drag, yeah. I yeah, I think.
• 1:46:43
  You yeah, I really love the a lot of like the the, the
• 1:46:48
  historical stuff that you do because I think like, you know,
• 1:46:50
  there's a not a lot of like. OK, no way I'm going to send.
• 1:46:57
  Yeah, because it's not OK there. I'm not going to say that
• 1:46:59
  there's not a lot of, of education out there for
• 1:47:03
  Indonesian women. It's just a lot of them like,
• 1:47:05
  and we talked about this earlier where it's like it's all very
• 1:47:07
  samey. It's all like, I think it's all
• 1:47:09
  kind of, it's either like bad historical research where like,
• 1:47:12
  you know, there's five voices and they're kind of like all
• 1:47:14
  melted into one. We don't know what they're
• 1:47:16
  saying or they're like very clearly trying to serve that,
• 1:47:20
  you know, like, you know, like, Oh yeah.
• 1:47:22
  You know, the like, like, like, oh, the, the, the role of women.
• 1:47:25
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:47:28
  What's what is? What is the thing you enjoy?
• 1:47:34
  The most, I think about being able to like, explore the
• 1:47:38
  history of women in India the way that you want to do whatever
• 1:47:42
  you want. What is the Yeah.
• 1:47:45
  Really, honestly, whenever I read about like these hidden
• 1:47:49
  women, quote UN quote, they had guts, man.
• 1:47:53
  And I don't, I don't know, man. Like one of my big goals is like
• 1:47:57
  to get a master's degree in Europe, like maybe one day and
• 1:48:02
  then like to read about these women, like in the 20s and the
• 1:48:05
  30s and the 40s, they were, they were already doing it and they
• 1:48:09
  were already slaying the town down.
• 1:48:11
  And like in, in that era when they had like, I feel like this
• 1:48:16
  is another thing that I kind of was thinking about in
• 1:48:20
  conversation with my friends. It's like #1 what do you do when
• 1:48:24
  your own history is a, your, like most of your history is a
• 1:48:27
  whole trigger warning, especially for women's history
• 1:48:30
  in Indonesia, right? And #2 it's like, how do you
• 1:48:34
  navigate yourself as a, as a woman, knowing that the way that
• 1:48:40
  these women are written are inherently biased, right, right.
• 1:48:45
  And it's kind of like it's, it's really, it's interesting how I'm
• 1:48:52
  very biased when I'm talking about Indonesian figures in
• 1:48:56
  history because. Fundamentally.
• 1:49:00
  We still share the same anxieties.
• 1:49:02
  Yeah, right. And fundamentally, I am still I
• 1:49:06
  can very easily be in her shoes so many years ago and not that
• 1:49:12
  much has changed. So.
• 1:49:16
  It kind of like whenever I'm reading about these women, it's
• 1:49:19
  really thrilling to see how, how dare they, Like everyone else
• 1:49:27
  was like, no, just go back into your box and they were like,
• 1:49:30
  fuck you, I'm going to do what I want.
• 1:49:33
  And yeah, I think like it kind of goes on in hand in hand.
• 1:49:37
  Unfortunately, I don't say I don't, I can't, you know, label
• 1:49:42
  myself as a historian cuz, you know, that's for the fancy Pansy
• 1:49:45
  academics to do. Is it like a protected term?
• 1:49:48
  Yeah, it's like an exclusive. Term.
• 1:49:50
  You gotta pay gatekeeping with that.
• 1:49:52
  Yeah, you. Gotta pay lots of money to do
• 1:49:55
  that or you gotta APA do the 2 + 1.
• 1:50:00
  Yeah. Yeah, 2.
• 1:50:02
  N + 1 Yeah, 2 N plus one. But yeah, like, it's, it's, it's
• 1:50:07
  really a hard thing to grasp to want to learn more about
• 1:50:10
  Indonesian history, but at the same time, you have to read
• 1:50:14
  about the horrible things that happened.
• 1:50:16
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, it, like, of
• 1:50:19
  course it's a lot of horrible things have happened in
• 1:50:21
  Indonesian history, but specifically to women.
• 1:50:23
  Yeah, Yeah. And you're kind of like, oh,
• 1:50:26
  they're cute. But yeah, yeah, you're, you're.
• 1:50:29
  Paying. Honour to them in a way, and and
• 1:50:32
  it's only. Once we truly grasp.
• 1:50:37
  The Horrors of. All that happened between Yeah,
• 1:50:40
  the. 9th in from. The 1960s all the way, even if
• 1:50:43
  it was the day really all the way from the.
• 1:50:45
  Colonialism era. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:50:49
  Yeah, we never be able. To really progress.
• 1:50:51
  As a nation. Yeah, and you know, not only
• 1:50:55
  learn from our history, but create a new identity perhaps
• 1:50:59
  can. And this is just me being you.
• 1:51:03
  Know utopic? Yeah, go.
• 1:51:05
  Ahead but create a better create.
• 1:51:08
  A society that is more fair and just for everyone.
• 1:51:12
  Yeah. Amen.
• 1:51:14
  For President, Ministry of Culture.
• 1:51:16
  Yeah, yeah, 2040. 4/20/44 I. Look forward to welcoming you
• 1:51:19
  all to my party. Yeah.
• 1:51:21
  What is it going to be called? New party.
• 1:51:23
  The party. It's going to be called the Wine
• 1:51:25
  and Cheese Party. It's BYOB.
• 1:51:29
  BYOB. OK.
• 1:51:30
  Although the cheese I will provide can be salt and vinegar.
• 1:51:33
  Party got it. So bad, yeah.
• 1:51:35
  You'll make the salt and vinegar chips, salt, vinegar for the
• 1:51:38
  album, salt and vinegar. Yeah.
• 1:51:43
  And Tabasco. 'Cause you're really American,
• 1:51:47
  aren't you? Yeah, man.
• 1:51:48
  Oh. My.
• 1:51:48
  God, what state do you? Claim as your home state.
• 1:51:51
  Oh, that's so I I. Honestly, I think it's more in
• 1:51:53
  New York because I grew up in Queens, so it's like, yeah,
• 1:51:56
  damn. No, yeah.
• 1:51:57
  Cool, I have a lot of Indonesians.
• 1:51:58
  In Queens though, yeah. Yeah, yeah, all the good food
• 1:52:01
  there too in Philadelphia. There's lots of Indonesians in
• 1:52:04
  it in Philadelphia. Oh yeah.
• 1:52:06
  Yeah, the Philly it really. Has a lot of Indonesians.
• 1:52:08
  Why? Why is that?
• 1:52:09
  Why? Why?
• 1:52:09
  I mean, I can, I can understand New York, but I can't understand
• 1:52:12
  Philly. I actually.
• 1:52:13
  Honestly don't know, there's lots of like illegals there.
• 1:52:15
  Although that being said. Billy isn't too far away from
• 1:52:18
  New York. No.
• 1:52:21
  DCI was going to say, yeah, it's like in the middle.
• 1:52:24
  Yeah, exactly. That's.
• 1:52:25
  Why? I think maybe there could be
• 1:52:26
  like a lot of like maybe, but. Yeah, that was the first time I
• 1:52:31
  got under the table jobs from those Indonesians as well.
• 1:52:36
  Oh yeah, they gave. You a job?
• 1:52:37
  Yeah, man, they like. If you're Indo you, you gotta be
• 1:52:41
  like this, you know? Yeah.
• 1:52:43
  Yeah, her job. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:52:45
  Don't lift each other up. We.
• 1:52:46
  Will not. Name you for safety or give me?
• 1:52:49
  Good. Food every Sunday, Yeah.
• 1:52:51
  Good. Good.
• 1:52:52
  Like good people, good. Oma.
• 1:52:53
  Oma is there too. Yeah.
• 1:52:55
  Is that? It's America also.
• 1:52:57
  Where like, were you already like part of like a like a
• 1:53:01
  dancing community there or was that something you did once you
• 1:53:04
  came back? I started.
• 1:53:06
  Dancing in. Well, no, I started dancing when
• 1:53:08
  I was a kid, but it became something that I wasn't forced
• 1:53:12
  to do anymore, if that makes sense.
• 1:53:14
  Yeah. Because like when you're a girl,
• 1:53:17
  you're like, I don't want to eat and you're like.
• 1:53:19
  But then when I was in the States, I started dancing
• 1:53:23
  Bolognese and I was like, oh, this was nice.
• 1:53:27
  And then when I came back here, I started dancing like, for my
• 1:53:31
  own will, if you, if you can say that because I wanted to do it
• 1:53:36
  rather than being, like, forced to do it.
• 1:53:38
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:53:41
  Why Bolognese? Specifically because it's hard.
• 1:53:43
  And I love to punish myself and we do leg going as well.
• 1:53:47
  So it's like. You'll never be good.
• 1:53:51
  Enough to Oh my. Goodness, yeah, but.
• 1:53:54
  It's great 'cause like and Speaking of gender, Lego Once
• 1:53:58
  Upon a time was only performed by men, but now you.
• 1:54:02
  Know this a lot of a lot of Indonesian, a lot of Indonesian
• 1:54:06
  theatre acts especially like when it comes to like portraying
• 1:54:09
  women, yeah, were originally portrayed by men like Kabuki.
• 1:54:14
  Yeah, yeah, on. Angata.
• 1:54:15
  Yeah, there's the like Cross dressed.
• 1:54:19
  I don't know what this specific term is, but there are dances
• 1:54:21
  where it's specifically for men in drag.
• 1:54:25
  Yeah. And that's the dance, you know.
• 1:54:27
  Yeah, in Bali is very, very specific.
• 1:54:30
  Yeah, I'm. Glad that we can have this
• 1:54:31
  conversation today at least. Because I imagine if we.
• 1:54:35
  Were having this conversation, let's say if we had a podcast in
• 1:54:38
  the 1990s Wow. Imagine that.
• 1:54:41
  We're a podcast we would have. A radio show?
• 1:54:43
  No. No, we'd have a.
• 1:54:44
  Podcast. We'd post it on the 1990s
• 1:54:46
  version of Spotify, the radio, the radio.
• 1:54:50
  Yeah. Yeah, there were.
• 1:54:51
  More the 1990s. Version of YouTube, right?
• 1:54:54
  Yeah, yeah. We wouldn't.
• 1:54:57
  The one channel. We, we, I'm sorry, it was the.
• 1:54:59
  90s. We had two channels by two
• 1:55:01
  channels 2. Channels Teferi and the other.
• 1:55:03
  One I remember the other one, but I love having you're like.
• 1:55:06
  Two whole channels, that's. The more than one, yeah.
• 1:55:10
  Yeah, that's a whole last. Channel 2 of them.
• 1:55:12
  Two of them maybe double the channels.
• 1:55:15
  Double the channels. No, no, no.
• 1:55:17
  But I'm, I'm glad we can talk about it now because at the very
• 1:55:21
  least we're not in a place where we're being shot for, Oh yeah,
• 1:55:24
  stuffed into a bag, being left wing now, rather.
• 1:55:27
  Than the future, right? I mean I I.
• 1:55:29
  Don't know about that exactly. Fingers crossed.
• 1:55:32
  Yeah, we, I don't know if you know.
• 1:55:35
  About this, I don't know, but we just signed a trade agreement
• 1:55:38
  with the United States whereby we can, whereby our personal
• 1:55:43
  data, yeah, can now be. Gathered.
• 1:55:45
  By companies like Palantir. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:55:48
  We're we're waiting for the missile to hit exactly.
• 1:55:52
  Yeah. Yeah, he didn't say anything
• 1:55:53
  bad. Though he didn't say anything
• 1:55:54
  bad. Yeah, no, you.
• 1:55:56
  Know that, Alex. Karp.
• 1:55:57
  Fuck Alex Karp. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:56:00
  We were just talking about. How much we loved locking
• 1:56:02
  Martin, bro. Oh yeah, no, yeah, we're.
• 1:56:03
  We're we're. We're still under good graces
• 1:56:05
  the Kabaya club. Sponsored by me.
• 1:56:09
  I'm sorry this book cracks. Me up.
• 1:56:11
  I can't. Afford to badmouth the states,
• 1:56:13
  they're gonna cancel my green card.
• 1:56:17
  We love America. We love America.
• 1:56:21
  God bless Ice in. It is ice in ice in Mike.
• 1:56:29
  It is in. Jeez, this.
• 1:56:33
  Is where we stop this is. Where we stop este monies?
• 1:56:37
  I mean, este monies, you know, Yeah.
• 1:56:42
  Yeah. Before we close out on that wild
• 1:56:44
  note, by the way, yeah. Is there anything you like you
• 1:56:47
  want to shout out your socials, anything that you're doing?
• 1:56:52
  No. This camera and this.
• 1:56:56
  Camera and this yeah, just what you got going on.
• 1:56:59
  Follow. Me on Instagram or TikTok, it's
• 1:57:01
  all my followers. Than we do anyway.
• 1:57:04
  Yeah, yeah. On TikTok.
• 1:57:05
  Yes, yeah, on. Totally.
• 1:57:07
  Normal folks. Yeah, well.
• 1:57:10
  Yeah, on Instagram you have more on on TikTok you have more.
• 1:57:14
  Yeah, Yeah, on Tik. T.O.K definitely more.
• 1:57:16
  Yeah, 50K or something, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:57:19
  You have enough. People to fill Wild isn't.
• 1:57:22
  Yeah, how, how wild is like the concept of like followers really
• 1:57:27
  imagining? 50,000 people imagine like.
• 1:57:30
  Jesus only started. Out with 12, so you know.
• 1:57:33
  Yeah. Imagine.
• 1:57:34
  What you can do with 50? $1000 Yeah, Imagine.
• 1:57:36
  Talking about that too. Like your great, great
• 1:57:38
  grandfather, like I have people I have, I have sermons in this
• 1:57:42
  black box. That I can they're.
• 1:57:45
  All in here. Grandpa, Yeah.
• 1:57:48
  They all see and. Hear me speak.
• 1:57:50
  I influence. Yeah, influence.
• 1:57:52
  Isn't. That crazy?
• 1:57:54
  It's. Crazy.
• 1:57:55
  Wow. Crazy.
• 1:57:56
  Yeah. So, yeah, obviously.
• 1:57:57
  I'm a hello on TikTok and on Instagram and I guess I guess we
• 1:58:02
  also like we will await the news on the Kabaya club.
• 1:58:06
  Yes, yeah. Yeah, he's like.
• 1:58:09
  Open to everyone, everyone and. No, no.
• 1:58:12
  Barrier of entry? Yeah, you have.
• 1:58:14
  To show me that you're not part of the armed forces.
• 1:58:18
  Sorry, armed. Forces.
• 1:58:21
  I can't join gatekeeping specifically.
• 1:58:23
  Your armed forces bad, Yeah. No, I'm kidding.
• 1:58:25
  You can just come and. Court martial.
• 1:58:31
  Yeah, come in whenever the next Quebec club will release again
• 1:58:36
  the next volume. Come and learn.
• 1:58:40
  And yeah, just where Kubaya or where your wasra and, you know,
• 1:58:45
  looks lay. Yeah.
• 1:58:47
  Fantastic. Alright then.
• 1:58:50
  In that case, thank you very much.
• 1:58:51
  I'm off for coming here, talking with us, answering our
• 1:58:53
  questions, and teaching us about stuff.
• 1:58:55
  Yeah. Thank you guys.
• 1:58:56
  Crazy.