Latest / The BEYOND Podcast / Jane Couper: Addiction, Recovery and Building a Purpose-Driven Life

Transcript

Jane Couper: Addiction, Recovery and Building a Purpose-Driven Life · The BEYOND Podcast

• 0:07
  Unknown: [Music] Jane, hello. Welcome to Beyond the Boardroom. Thank you for having me. I'm super
• 0:13
  excited to have you on. You are quite something. Shall I list Shall I list all these uh accolades?
• 0:20
  Right. You're the founder of Red Wolf Technologies Limited. You are the co-founder and CEO of Novella
• 0:27
  Healthcare. You are also the co-chair for apps goes I hope I'm saying that correctly clinical and
• 0:34
  healthcare sector. You've also been a director of several companies. You are a motivational speaker.
• 0:43
  You're also a mom and you're also from what I've seen so far a very lovely person. Does that sum
• 0:52
  up the uh do you I guess so. It's a it Yeah. Yeah. These are, you know, these are pretty significant
• 1:00
  achievements. It's pretty cool, you know, to have all of that and be like, look, I've, you know,
• 1:04
  I'm the founder of these businesses. I've done this. I've done that. You're clearly pretty
• 1:08
  entrepreneurial. Let's let's be, you know, let's be honest. Yeah. I think I just get excited about
• 1:13
  things. You like you like business. You're doing stuff. You're making the effort. And I would say
• 1:19
  you've achieved a decent amount of uh success. However, your journey to get to this point
• 1:28
  has been pretty tough to say the least and it included drug abuse and alcohol abuse and mental
• 1:37
  health struggles. It's not been easy for you. I'm thrilled to have you on. You're very brave to come
• 1:44
  on um and share this journey with us. Um and I suppose first question what I want to know is why
• 1:54
  did you feel it's important to share your journey with us? I have tried to share um as much as I'm
• 2:03
  comfortable with I suppose for a little while now. I was asked to speak in a school to begin with
• 2:08
  um going back seven or eight years by a friend who knew my story and asked to speak and at the time I
• 2:14
  I said no instantly and thought that that was a silly idea. Yeah. And and and who would want to
• 2:20
  listen to my story? Lots of people have tough stories and tough backgrounds and and and just
• 2:25
  didn't see myself as as that person really. But she talked me into it and I'm glad she did. Uh,
• 2:30
  and it made me realize how much young people these days and and all people, but particularly young
• 2:35
  people are struggling with with life and mental health battles and could see that it had helped
• 2:41
  maybe just one or two people in that room and that made it worth getting a little bit uncomfortable
• 2:46
  for and doing it again and again. Yeah, I mean this podcast, you know, we cover I mean there's
• 2:52
  lots of things we cover, but I suppose the central theme to what encapsulates what this podcast is
• 2:58
  about. It's like a it's an inner confidence you know to go for stuff in business but also in your
• 3:06
  personal life you know to overcome challenges to achieve things to I suppose fight your inner
• 3:12
  demons to whatever it is fight the laziness or fight the temptations whatever it may be
• 3:19
  it's it's kind of like working through that to be confident enough to take charge of your life and
• 3:25
  go forward so I feel you're very well placed to be on this podcast and lots of people as you say are
• 3:32
  struggling with these issues and I just want to have a conversation with you about it. I feel like
• 3:38
  your story is crazy like it's mad like it's Yeah, it's colorful. It's a very colorful story. Yeah,
• 3:46
  it's good you're wearing red. Enjoy the ride. Yeah. So, first of all, you grew up in Did you
• 3:53
  grow up in Glasgow? No, I grew up in Bolton. You grew up in Bolton? cuz obviously you don't have a
• 3:58
  no Scotty. So what's the Glasgow connection? Uh I went to university in Glasgow. I wanted to study
• 4:02
  forensics and that was the best place. Forensics. Yes. I always do everything to uh fairly Olympic
• 4:07
  st standards. So I I searched for where the best place was to do it and went to Glasgow. That's
• 4:12
  that's okay. Forensics is uh I haven't heard that on the podcast something. And then you moved to
• 4:20
  uh Yeah. When I finished at Glasgow I moved back down. I moved home to Bolton and lasted maybe
• 4:26
  eight weeks. I think once you've come away from living at home, it's hard to go back,
• 4:29
  isn't it? Uh and quickly moved to uh a flat in Manchester with with friends. So what led you
• 4:36
  to move to Manchester? Like what was like what was the idea of Manchester? Uh it just happened
• 4:42
  if I'm honest. There was nothing too purposeful at that point. I took a break from forensics. I'd
• 4:48
  been studying. Um, I'd had a bit of a a tough time at at university with uh with a couple of things
• 4:55
  that happened and I just decided to get a job. I got a job on 12 grand in a call center at BER. Um,
• 5:03
  and it just was to kind of fill a gap to begin with while I worked out what I did and then
• 5:09
  things just went from there. What was it at uni that was tough? What was it? I think looking back
• 5:15
  that I already struggled with mental health. I think depression had kicked in by the time I was
• 5:23
  a teenager really. Um and and struggled through school, got to university and and struggled more.
• 5:29
  And then um one of my close friends from home died in a car accident um and that that was
• 5:36
  really tough to deal with at that age. You know, we were 20 and going on nights out and all that
• 5:41
  really affected you. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. you already felt sort of depressed and sad. Um,
• 5:48
  was there any reason that you were feeling like this? Did you know what was causing the sadness
• 5:52
  or did you No, I didn't at the time. I mean, looking back, I think um just not fitting in and
• 5:59
  not feeling a part of the world. You know, I'm in a civil partnership. I'm gay now happily married
• 6:05
  to a woman. But to grow up in the 80s and 90s and and to be a gay person walking in this world was
• 6:11
  not an easy one. It wasn't something people spoke about and and you know is is still more difficult
• 6:17
  these days. So you didn't talk about it at that? No, I wouldn't even to myself. I still tried to
• 6:22
  date boys and tried to be somebody that I wasn't which is incredibly uncomfortable and and you know
• 6:28
  it's damaging to mental health. It takes its toll after a time that is uncomfortable because you're
• 6:33
  walking around. Yeah. You're you're not being true to yourself and it's going to affect every single
• 6:37
  response to everything that you encounter. you know, your internal message is that you're not
• 6:42
  you're not good enough, you don't fit in, you you know, you there's something wrong with you, you
• 6:47
  know, all those things. And and you know, insults are still used on the playground around being gay.
• 6:51
  It's still used as an insult particularly amongst lads. And you know, it's it's at school. Did
• 6:57
  you get bullied in in that way? But you but you concealed it. So you Yeah. Not not for being gay,
• 7:02
  but I was a tomboy. You know, all I wanted to do was play football. Girls weren't allowed to
• 7:05
  play football. Yeah, I you know I just didn't certainly didn't fit into the in crowd if you
• 7:10
  know there is still football. I know. Yeah. I mean now I really enjoy it and it's and it's
• 7:16
  great and it's you know for some of my closest friends have come from football and that's right
• 7:21
  you know and that's incredible but at the time I was told I wasn't allowed to play you know
• 7:25
  that was wrong you know there was so many things that told you subtly that that it was wrong. It
• 7:32
  wasn't that anybody ever told me, you know, you can't be gay cuz no, I didn't tell anybody that
• 7:36
  I was. I didn't tell myself I was. Not your not your parents. You didn't have any. No, we never
• 7:41
  had a conversation. No friends to disclose that. You didn't want it. I don't think in those days
• 7:46
  people did anyway. I I just don't think they did. I think it it is different now and it's better,
• 7:52
  but um we're still not there. you know, the only people that think it's probably okay to be gay.
• 7:58
  And there's nothing different these days than there was is is straight people. There's still
• 8:02
  very much Yeah. you know, an underlying tone um in society that it's still not quite there.
• 8:09
  So, you've gone to Manchester and then what was it about the scene sort of the clubs, the social
• 8:19
  circles, the bars that kind of drew you into that sort of world? Uh, I don't know really. I mean,
• 8:28
  I enjoyed going out. I think most people did at that age. And I'd gone from not fitting in at
• 8:32
  school and not really having friends and and being quite a loner to all of a sudden finding people
• 8:40
  that I enjoyed spending time with and um and and you know we had a good time and I lived with
• 8:47
  um a girl who you know we were incredibly close very very quickly and and shared a bond and
• 8:54
  um yeah I just enjoy enjoyed it to an extent but I still for that first year or two of being
• 9:02
  in Manchester was trying to date boys and be somebody that I wasn't. Okay. So, you've got
• 9:09
  a friend now. You're living together. Were you living together at the time? And you're going out
• 9:15
  and you're partying and you're sort of enjoying it, sort of getting into that whole thing.
• 9:20
  That's someone on the podcast last week that was saying that it's just something you fall into,
• 9:24
  isn't it? It's a whole club scene and everyone's going out and everyone's It is whatever partying
• 9:29
  and stuff. Yeah, it it it sounds bizarre now looking back, but we she she was a model and
• 9:35
  um you know moved in circles where it meant we were going to Man United football dues and um
• 9:42
  you know yeah you know big celebrities that people knew and we were you know we would always get into
• 9:48
  any of those clubs because of who she knew and her modeling and and things like that and living
• 9:53
  a life that most people would have thought was just wonderful you know. Yeah. who wouldn't want
• 9:57
  to live that life at that age that you know it was it was great to an extent but I think behind the
• 10:03
  scenes I I still was was struggling. Yeah. So you still felt something inside you not quite right
• 10:10
  but to the outside world you're partying you're actually you know you're enjoying this lifestyle
• 10:15
  because that's sort of what's going on that's the theme of the yeah I had some really good friends
• 10:21
  from uh six form college and and Bolton and um I kind of lost touch with them because I was trying
• 10:28
  to pretend to myself and everybody else that I was having this great time and they genuinely thought
• 10:32
  that I was doing and you know a couple of years later when it all came tumbling down and one of
• 10:39
  the first things I needed to do was to reach out to people that I knew would just be there. Yeah.
• 10:43
  They just couldn't believe that I'd gone through all of this for a few years without knowing.
• 10:48
  They just thought I was having this great time. Remember, there was no social media then. Yeah.
• 10:52
  You know, we're talking 2001 to 2005ish. And um the odd time I spoke to them, which was very rare,
• 11:03
  they they just thought I was having this great time. Yeah. So you sort of drifted away from them
• 11:07
  a little bit and you're drifting into this world gap between a lot of people. And in this world
• 11:12
  you've got these big celebrity parties that you're going to it's really fun. It's it's madness. It's
• 11:18
  all those shiny lovely things and that includes drugs and alcohol, I'm sure. Yeah. So when did
• 11:26
  you first try drugs? Uh probably a few months into that scene. was just readily available as
• 11:35
  as I'm sure it is these days still. I I don't know a long way away from it now, but I think it was it
• 11:41
  was so available. Yeah. Um now obviously I just think about my kids and terrified now. Yeah. I
• 11:49
  wish you didn't know. You're a great Yeah. You're a great mom cuz you're going to be like, "Yeah,
• 11:53
  we'll spot it quite easily." Yeah. You're gonna know. Um Yeah. And it was just readily available.
• 11:57
  And I think because you say that these nights were great fun, but actually I was stood in
• 12:01
  those rooms with I think you know, call it what you want, imposter syndrome or whatever else we
• 12:07
  call all these feelings. I didn't feel like I fit in in any way. You know, I wasn't a celebrity. I
• 12:13
  didn't feel like I looked the part. I didn't, you know, I I I was gay and nobody knew it. I
• 12:20
  was there pretending, you know, flirting with men, which is really uncomfortable for me, you know,
• 12:24
  and and so Did I have fun? I don't know. I played a part well. That must be really difficult because
• 12:32
  you're flirting with, you know, these guys and you don't you're not fancing them at all. It must be
• 12:37
  just the difficult, you know, thing. I think you train to to you're trained to ignore that feeling
• 12:42
  inside of butterflies and that little feeling in your tummy when you're attracted to somebody.
• 12:47
  That's lovely. And everybody has a right to have that feeling. And I didn't because for all those
• 12:52
  years when everybody else was having all those exciting feelings and um you know and enjoying
• 12:58
  those first dates and everything, I was pushing all of that down thinking or trying to convince
• 13:03
  myself it was something else and going on dates with guys and thinking I must be attracted to
• 13:08
  this guy cuz he's attractive, right? You know, or I must be attracted to this guy cuz all the other
• 13:13
  girls are so he's attractive so therefore I must date him. You can't you can't you can't pretend,
• 13:19
  you know, to think I was 22 before that's tough. I admitted first having feelings for a girl. Um, you
• 13:26
  know, that that's a So, which girl was that? Long time. Well, I'm I'm going to protect her privacy
• 13:33
  here cuz she No, no, don't say her name. But which was it? The girl that you were staying with? Yes.
• 13:37
  Yeah. Yeah. And And do you know what? You couldn't ask for a better response. She just kind of went,
• 13:43
  "Oh, everybody falls in love with me. Why don't we just go out and see what other girls you're
• 13:47
  attracted to? Yeah, chill. And I thought my world would end, you know. I thought this was this was
• 13:52
  it, you know, my world would end. And um she got me to go and sit down with my mom and go back to
• 13:57
  Bolton and chat with friends and uh you know, she was incredible. How was that for you going going
• 14:03
  to your mom and your friends? Hard and yet lovely as well because you know those friends I've got
• 14:11
  from Bolton are proper proper friends. You know, I grew grew up with them to an extent. Most of them
• 14:17
  I met at six form. As I say, school school wasn't a great time. But at six form, I made some friends
• 14:22
  that are just down to earth people. They're just authentic, genuinely good people. And um they were
• 14:29
  just upset that I'd not been able to talk to them or that I thought they would see me any other way.
• 14:33
  And and I didn't necessarily I don't think it was as much about them as it was about me accepting
• 14:38
  things. Yeah, that's right. You have to accept yourself. But did they suspect anything like that?
• 14:42
  they think like come on, you know. Oh yeah. I don't think they were surprised. I just don't
• 14:47
  think they'd overthought about it either because it's not a big deal to anybody else. Yeah. You
• 14:52
  know, and it and it isn't. Yeah. Um but what they you know what a lot of people don't see
• 14:56
  is if I walk down the street and hold hands with my partner, people take a second look. Sometimes
• 15:02
  they're not being nasty. They're not being difficult or they're not but yeah, you know,
• 15:07
  it's different. So they take a second look. I don't want that second look. I get embarrassed or
• 15:12
  I get uncomfortable or I just want to go through life. Yeah. Without the second look. Yeah. Even
• 15:19
  now. Even now. Less so maybe than 20 years ago, but still. Well, hopefully coming on this
• 15:26
  podcast will help the second look stop. It's rude. Yeah. I don't People aren't meaning to be rude,
• 15:31
  are they? I think we all second, you know, it's there. In some cultures, they just stare. I mean,
• 15:37
  I'm Polish, but in Poland, Polish people love to stare. like you sit, you know, in an airport and
• 15:43
  it and you know, we're still in a world where it's illegal to be gay in some countries. You know,
• 15:48
  when me and my we have two children together, two beautiful children. We're very blessed. we've had
• 15:52
  IVF and um then we and we have this lovely family and we're the only gay family in our
• 15:58
  school in our primary school of you know however many hundreds of children and we know that if we
• 16:05
  travel I am conscious of where we travel because I don't want my children to be intimidated or to
• 16:11
  realize that actually they're still young you know they're nine and six and that's young to know that
• 16:16
  there's some hatred out there and there's some oh dangerous in dangerous Absolutely. Don't you know
• 16:22
  I've experienced it when I've traveled and I I choose not to put myself in those situations with
• 16:26
  children. Yeah. It's it's a high stress dangerous environment. You're already going through enough.
• 16:31
  You know, you you've got to be true to yourself and you can't be putting yourself and your family
• 16:36
  in a dangerous situation where you have to overcome all of that when you're still trying
• 16:40
  to Yeah, absolutely. But equally, you know, we choose to not, you know, that that doesn't define
• 16:45
  who we are. We're just a normal family. We, you know, there's love, there's laughter, there's uh,
• 16:50
  you know, this in incredible want to to do right by our children and and for them to to enjoy life
• 16:55
  and make the most of of every moment. It becomes about the kids. It becomes they're more than like
• 17:01
  your life becomes so secondary, tertiary, whatever you want to call it. It just isn't the main thing,
• 17:07
  is it? No. You know, we've started by speaking about this, but actually it doesn't really come up
• 17:12
  dayto-day for me anymore. I don't talk about it. I don't tend to to think about it too much because
• 17:17
  it's it's in the I dealt with it a long time ago and I've accepted the world as it is and and just
• 17:22
  tried to make the most of the world it is which we're all doing. We all have reasons that we we
• 17:27
  perhaps feel we don't fit into the world. So it's no different. It's also important I feel like when
• 17:33
  you talk about these things you get to understand someone you know you get to connect. You get to
• 17:39
  feel what's going on in their heart and their soul. And when you communicate, you get you just
• 17:44
  understand and ex you're more accepting of things. I think the public become more accepting when they
• 17:49
  understand these things on a deeper level. Like what you go through, the feelings, the rejection,
• 17:55
  the acceptance, the the fear, you know, the danger. I feel like that's all pretty important to
• 18:02
  hear. I know it's Yeah. uncomfortable possibly to the last thing you want is to be talking about it,
• 18:07
  but it's like should we be talking about it, you know? Yeah, I think so. And I think what's
• 18:13
  important is, you know, in the years that that went it it tumbled really, which I'm sure we'll
• 18:18
  come on to from from going to these parties and then into this world of of drink and drugs that
• 18:23
  that became less savory, I suppose. And I I was unkind in some of those times and I was not a
• 18:30
  nice person in in some of those moments. And I did things that now I, you know, I'm I'm ashamed of to
• 18:36
  some extent. I've forgiven myself, but you know, wouldn't wouldn't ever do again. And you know,
• 18:43
  when I see people that are sometimes acting in an unkind way or I I remember that I I was sometimes
• 18:50
  that person and and all I needed was kindness. And it's so hard, isn't it? Because if somebody's
• 18:55
  attacking you in any way or or or being difficult to be around or being unkind and being mean or
• 19:00
  just being a not very nice person, you know, with attitude and and anything else, it's it's
• 19:06
  not easy to be around. And why why should you be kind to them if they haven't been? But actually,
• 19:12
  I think a lot of people ju just need kindness because underneath it probably comes from a
• 19:16
  place of hurt and Yeah. There's something they're fighting there. Yeah. And it's Yeah. It can't be
• 19:22
  easy. So you What was that experience like? You took drugs for the first time. What was that
• 19:29
  like? You're actually quite older now to 2023. And that's the first time? Yeah. I' uh Who gave you?
• 19:38
  I mean, don't say name, but like obviously was in the club. It's just in the club. Yeah. Yeah. And
• 19:43
  in bars and people that would come back to our apartment or we'd have and Yeah. Yeah. I think
• 19:49
  Did you not get Were you terrified the first time you saw the drugs? You thought, "Oh, that's drugs.
• 19:52
  Oh my god." Yeah. No. I mean, I drank quite a lot. And you you know, and it I think it just gradually
• 19:59
  came into my awareness that drugs were around and that just became more normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
• 20:06
  things do become normal even when they're not to everybody else in your world. If they're around
• 20:10
  all the time, then it it gradually becomes normal. There's no point where I can remember thinking I'm
• 20:15
  going to do this now. I don't remember the first time I did it or made the decision to It just sort
• 20:21
  of blended with So, you were, you know, drinking, going out. So, obviously inhibitions are down
• 20:26
  anyway. The drugs are there. People are trying it. Did your flatmates obviously trying it as well or
• 20:32
  No, no, she didn't. No. No. No, no, it was it was just me. I She didn't need to. I think for me,
• 20:42
  drink and drugs were an escape for me by that point. And when you depression is quite bad,
• 20:50
  it's escape, you know, anything that anything. You made the choice to take them basically. You
• 20:58
  you wanted I remember a conscious choice, but uh yeah, I would have done anything to escape.
• 21:02
  And I think you've got to you've got to remember that things things happen gradually, don't they?
• 21:07
  So there's not a for me anyway, there was never a moment until till further in the journey when
• 21:12
  there was moments that I wanted things to end. But in the leadup to that, it was just that I started
• 21:20
  to care less about being here, that perhaps I didn't mind whether I was here or not. I
• 21:26
  know that sounds a silly thing to say. It's the best way I can describe how I was feeling that.
• 21:30
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so you weren't very kind to your body. You were like, "No, no." And put
• 21:37
  yourself in situations that were dangerous. And it happens. Yeah. You didn't really Yeah. And it And
• 21:43
  it's funny because the less you care about being here, the more confident you become, you know,
• 21:48
  in in going into those situations because you're like, "Well, I don't care if I get hurt. I don't
• 21:53
  care if, you know, if such a thing happens." So, at this point, if they're passing around all these
• 21:57
  different drugs, you're probably not even that interested in maybe what's, you know, you're not
• 22:01
  going to be like, "What exactly is in this? How is it?" You know, you're just sort of like, "Yeah,
• 22:06
  you know, who cares?" And this is all messing with your your mind and it's chemicals and it's
• 22:11
  the alcohol and it's all going. Yeah. I know. You know, the thing with some drugs and and alcohol
• 22:16
  is it makes you feel better in that moment. It makes you feel more confident. I suppose
• 22:20
  it depends which drug you take. I'm not very experienced in a lot of drugs, but you know, the
• 22:25
  for a moment it makes you feel better. And I think when you've got depression and you just feel dark
• 22:30
  and nothing for so much of the time that feeling something can be better than feeling nothing for
• 22:37
  a little bit. Yeah. Well, I mean it takes me to the the whole Liam pain thing, doesn't it? You
• 22:42
  heard about Liam Pain from WD. It's like Yeah. You sort of think for someone on the outside looking
• 22:47
  you think, but why did you take this stuff? Like why did you do that? No. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.
• 22:53
  Like why would you do that? Clearly, it's going to be dangerous. Clearly, you're going to be out of
• 22:56
  control. Why would you waste your beautiful life? You're a star. You're this. Why? Why would you do
• 23:00
  like what is going on? Surely you can just say no to that. Yeah, surely. It just doesn't work that
• 23:05
  way. It just doesn't Why do you want to if you don't care enough? I don't know the guy. You know,
• 23:11
  it's different for everybody, isn't it? But that could have easily been me. I could have fallen
• 23:15
  off a balcony. I could have, you know, been run over. I could have done lots of things. And I'm
• 23:20
  lucky that I'm still here and those things didn't happen. But I think certainly I put myself in I
• 23:24
  think what I'm getting from you that it's just it's it's shocking in a way. It's like you didn't
• 23:30
  you didn't care that the drugs were harming you. You were okay to hurt your body in that way. You
• 23:36
  were okay to extent felt I deserved it. I by that time didn't believe I was that nice a person you
• 23:42
  know. So yeah you've giving up on yourself in a way. Yeah. Yeah. And the drugs are shielding you
• 23:49
  and the alcohol sort of protecting you in a way, isn't it? Really? Yeah. So, you're in this world,
• 23:56
  you're doing that. It's sort of building up now. So, at what point did you realize that this,
• 24:02
  you know, the drugs and alcohol becoming a a problem now? Well, at this point, I'd um myself
• 24:09
  and my friend kind of had gone slightly separate ways. She'd met a guy, you know, at one of these
• 24:13
  parties we'd been to who she's married to now, has children with, and is still a incredible friend.
• 24:18
  Um, and um, and so she'd kind of moved in with him. And so I had this apartment and all this kind
• 24:26
  of time and I I got into another relationship with a woman for the first time. Um, and I think I just
• 24:35
  had the freedom to take even more because there was nobody around really to to go come on now,
• 24:43
  you know. Um, so the fact so you were with us with a woman now, another woman, and you thought like
• 24:50
  did that not make you feel better now that you can sort of be more yourself, be more did did
• 24:55
  this not feel like I want you want to stop the drugs completely? No, because that relationship
• 25:00
  wasn't very healthy. I don't look when you're not healthy and things aren't going well,
• 25:04
  you're not attracted to a healthy environment. So, so that relationship she, you know, was
• 25:11
  with a guy, you know, hadn't come to terms with any feelings that she had towards me. So, okay,
• 25:17
  I think that's um that's not a relationship, isn't it? That we get into really unhealthy. You just b
• 25:23
  from one unhealthy thing to another, don't you? when you're feeling that low about yourself. And
• 25:28
  uh so yeah, things things kind of got worse. And you were noticing now I'm taking more drugs. I'm
• 25:34
  getting more out of control. Yeah. Yeah. I I was by this point having um I'd been to the
• 25:40
  doctors for depression. You know, I'd recognized that it perhaps wasn't normal how I felt about
• 25:47
  not wanting to get up in the morning, struggling just to get to work. Um I look back, I don't know
• 25:52
  how I kept a job to be honest. I don't know why they kept me in a job. Um I think I don't think
• 25:57
  I was there very much. But um I think I just got away with it because I was always quite capable,
• 26:03
  you know. I was always quite academic. So how many drugs and things were you doing at the stage and
• 26:08
  alcohol? Was it just on more party and and night time? Probably from kind of Thursday through to
• 26:14
  Monday, which is most of your week, isn't it? on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Look at it
• 26:20
  that it's a little bit like now when people say they're going to eat healthy and they, you know,
• 26:24
  and then they get to Thursday and they're like, well, it's nearly weekend, isn't it? And I'll have
• 26:27
  a treat and then that goes through to Monday. And I'm like, well, that's just your whole week, isn't
• 26:30
  it? Thursday to Monday. Well, yeah. To recover Monday. Yeah. It um I' I'd tried anti-depressants
• 26:37
  on and off, kind of half-hearted attempt. I'd been referred for counseling. I'd gone to a counselor.
• 26:44
  didn't really engage with any counselors. I didn't think very much of of the first few
• 26:49
  that I met. But then I met this woman who was a clinical psychologist. They obviously looking
• 26:53
  back they obviously felt I needed deeper help because it went from a counselor at some point
• 26:56
  to a clinical psychologist and a psychiatrist uh that was in the private and I was very lucky
• 27:02
  because I was working at BER and BER in those days as an employee you had private cover. So I kind of
• 27:10
  got pushed into this um world of psychiatrist and clinical psychologist and I met the most wonderful
• 27:16
  psychologist who um I still have contact with to this day and um she absolutely helped in me
• 27:28
  taking a different path in this world. I don't know what would have happened had I not met her
• 27:32
  and perhaps there'd have been another clinical psychologist come along but she had a way with
• 27:36
  me that other people hadn't before she managed to touch something. So just in terms of timelines
• 27:41
  so you've got you got into this relationship turbulent relationship with this other woman.
• 27:46
  It's not working out. She's not quite there. It's actually destabilizing you. Yes, you're, you know,
• 27:53
  continuing with the drugs and alcohol on, you know, for Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday,
• 27:57
  and then sort of recovering and just about going to work. Do you then decide I've got a problem?
• 28:03
  Do you then see the clinical psychologist or what what happens? That had already s started,
• 28:08
  I think. Um, so you were already seeing Yeah, clinical psychologist. Yeah. And starting to go
• 28:13
  and then I realized You went to the priary? Yeah. I was weekly at these um outpatient appointments
• 28:19
  with the clinical psychologist and um and they kind of continued but it got to a point where
• 28:27
  yeah I got to 20 I was around 25. It was 2005 and um just just didn't want to be here. I just
• 28:35
  didn't I'd have to turn the lights off. If you if it was as easy as a light switch I'd have I'd
• 28:40
  have switched it off but it's not as easy as a light switch fortunately. Um, yeah, that year
• 28:47
  was tough. Just I can't even like how do you get to the point that you decide I don't want to be
• 28:53
  here? Like that's Yeah. And I think what's most shocking for me now looking back is that I had a
• 28:59
  loving family. You know, I have a loving family. I have a mom. Uh my dad who's who's not with me now,
• 29:05
  but uh grandparents, aunties, uncles, you know, siblings as well. Yeah. And and and friends. And
• 29:11
  but you're alone. you know. Yeah. Very alone. Very alone. And couldn't bear to tell them what
• 29:17
  was really going on. So, if you're not you're not talking to them cuz they you know, they're further
• 29:24
  away. You're just you're just not connecting with it. So, the people you've got around you at this
• 29:29
  point, how are they impacting you? Well, by that point, the only people that I had around me really
• 29:34
  were people that were drinking and taking drugs and were just coming along for the ride, you know,
• 29:40
  yourself with the people that are just in it for the, you know, I was probably quite entertaining
• 29:45
  in those days when we went out. You've got a front on, you you have a great Were you being
• 29:48
  yourself at this stage? Were you sort of is is it part or you being genuine to yourself? No, you uh
• 29:58
  to an extent. Yeah. You know, I had some great times as well. I had some there were some of
• 30:02
  those friends that we had great nights out. We had great fun, but did it extend into anything
• 30:09
  deeper or or more of a connection? Not really. I had a couple of friends that um I'd met at BER who
• 30:15
  um did turn out to be the best of friends and sat with me, you know, by the time I was in the
• 30:20
  priary, came and sat while I rocked in a corner, you know, would sit quietly with me while I
• 30:25
  couldn't get out a darkened room and and and would just sit there and even when I tried to push them
• 30:30
  away because I did, you know, because I tried to push everybody away. Um it's self-destruction,
• 30:36
  isn't it? You know, you're just on self-destruct. That includes drink, drugs, pushing people away,
• 30:40
  everything. Did the priary help you to not want the drink and drugs anymore? Did did it work in
• 30:46
  in that sense? Yeah, it did. It gave me a break from life, you know, from the pressure of trying
• 30:51
  to be some something else, somebody else. From the pressure of everything, from relationships,
• 30:57
  from work, from I don't know, just life. You you you're in a bubble and you're with other
• 31:03
  people that are at least as poorly as you. Yeah. So what year was So you were in the priary when
• 31:08
  was that? What year? Uh 2005 Christmas into the new year over the Christmas period and into the
• 31:14
  new year. Gosh, you know I used to walk past the priary sometimes. I lived in Southgate. Okay. And
• 31:20
  I sometimes go past and I said to what's that and my husband and he sort of explained it to
• 31:24
  me and I was like oh okay. It's just it's seemed like a very peaceful beautiful peaceful and yeah
• 31:32
  trees and yeah I mean I was at one in in the north and uh same beautiful old building very peaceful
• 31:38
  and I'd been there for sessions a lot of sessions by this point you know becoming an impatient was
• 31:42
  almost just a a next step you know from being an outed that you surroundings I accepted it I even I
• 31:50
  remember the woman on reception looking at me as if I was I was mad which I kind of was to to be
• 31:55
  in the first place. I, you know, I um handed my car keys to her and she was like, "Have you driven
• 32:00
  yourself here?" And I was like, "Well, yeah. You know, I've agreed to be here." So, you know,
• 32:06
  I suppose I suppose it's disciplined of you. You know, even though your life's pretty turbulent,
• 32:11
  there's a level of discipline that you're showing there. So, you're getting the treatment, you're
• 32:16
  coming in, you're still seeing these, you've got these friends, you're sort of getting Yeah.
• 32:21
  tempted in. What happens next? I uh had that few weeks at the priary and when I came out it just
• 32:30
  felt like I'd had a real break and that I didn't think that life would perhaps change massively
• 32:38
  for me that I was just a little bit stronger to be able to cope with it. And you know I'd started to
• 32:45
  um I always did exercise and things but I'd not done for a few years and I was trying to do a
• 32:51
  little bit of exercise again. I was just trying a little bit harder. showers. Just a few little
• 32:54
  things. Okay, just trying a few little things. But um life quickly turned for me then. I'd
• 33:02
  um reached that point of being in the priary over 2005, Christmas and New Year, and then my
• 33:06
  dad suddenly passed away in March 2006. And that that was it. That that was the point. Oh gosh.
• 33:14
  Yeah. So that threw you threw the the the whole healing out the window basically. That was it. Um,
• 33:25
  yes and no. Everything just changed, you know. I mean, even today, I think there was life before
• 33:31
  my dad died and there's life after. It's very different. Um, I I was a daddy's girl. I always
• 33:39
  was, you know, I adored him. He was my hero. I loved him unconditionally. He We had a connection
• 33:45
  that anybody that knew us knew we just had this connection. and even when I was poorly and even
• 33:51
  when you know my mom loves me unconditionally and and and you know now he's incredibly proud
• 33:58
  of me. Um with my dad there was just something a little bit deeper like I could look at him and I
• 34:04
  know what he was thinking and he knew what I was thinking. I didn't have to say anything. Daddy's
• 34:07
  daddy's little girl. Yeah. Yeah. And and when I was really, I got home one day from I think about
• 34:13
  a three-day bender and he was sat on the doorstep with um it was a magic hat. When I was a little
• 34:20
  girl, I used to have nightmares and my dad used to put this sun hat on me and tell me it was magic
• 34:24
  and my nightmares used to go away. And um I got home and he was sat there and he'd kept it. Oh,
• 34:32
  that's so cute. And I don't know how long he'd been sat there. He just said,
• 34:35
  "I just knew, you know, I needed to come." Oh god. Um. Oh god, that's lovely. So, you know,
• 34:42
  he he never judged my dad. He never when I told him that I was gay, I might as well have just told
• 34:47
  him I'd spaghetti for tea. You know, he didn't he didn't care, you know. He just he was very forward
• 34:52
  thinking and he just he just had no judgment of anybody. He was a very gentle character. Well,
• 34:57
  he loved you, so that's it. There's no there's no other anything else. So, but that must have
• 35:04
  been damn awful. Yeah. Yeah. the one. That's a knife in the heart. Yeah. Not the one cuz I I I
• 35:10
  did have other family that desperately tried to be there for for me. I didn't let them,
• 35:14
  you know. I I I didn't let my mom. I didn't let my auntie who I'm very close to. There were there
• 35:19
  were lots of lots of people I didn't let anybody else. Whereas my dad never tried. He just kind
• 35:25
  of potted around and was just there gently, you know, and then all of a sudden he he wasn't. And
• 35:32
  uh yeah that it wasn't that my healing stopped. It was almost like my healing started which I know
• 35:40
  sounds odd. Okay. What happened then? Well look we all have different beliefs don't we about the
• 35:46
  world that we live in and about spiritual beliefs and things like that and um maybe I was already
• 35:51
  open to some extent around spiritual beliefs but um I believe that my dad came to see me that
• 35:56
  night which may sound crazy to a lot of people. I don't think it it really matters. it helped me
• 36:01
  and um I just felt something different. I think one was that I couldn't let my dad see me doing
• 36:15
  those things anymore. All of a sudden, I had this belief that he could still see me. I just couldn't
• 36:19
  see him. Which which thing? So, what's the worst thing that you didn't want your dad to see about
• 36:25
  you? Well, I didn't want him to see me drinking and taking drugs. I didn't want him to see me.
• 36:31
  It really hurt my dad when I was hurting. You know that ET film when when when the boy's hurting and
• 36:40
  ET hurt. That's the closest I can describe it. And it is for anybody. We all understand. That's
• 36:45
  why the film was so successful. We all understand that bond. It's like now with my children, if they
• 36:50
  hurt, I hurt 10 times as much, you know. And my dad, I could see the pain on his face even when
• 36:56
  he pretended to be okay. the day that I went that I went and told him that I was going to go into
• 37:00
  the priary for a few weeks to take a break. I'll never forget the look on his face and it wasn't
• 37:06
  disappointment. It wasn't it was just it was just sadness. So, at this point with your dad passing,
• 37:18
  had you in terms of your experience and your the drugs and and you said you didn't want to be here.
• 37:26
  Had you by this point reached what you would consider your sort of rock bottom, you know,
• 37:32
  in life. Yes. Yeah. I had by that point I think on paper they were classed as three I don't like
• 37:40
  to say suicide attempts. I think that's what what doctors or the priary would have kind of referred
• 37:44
  to them as. I'm not sure it's that easy to label these things. But there were three events where
• 37:49
  I'd, you know, really put myself in harm's way and and not wanted to be here by the time I went into
• 37:54
  the priary, which is why I agreed to it because I knew each time it was going to get worse. Um, so
• 38:01
  yeah, I'd reached that point and I just couldn't bear my dad seeing that or that look on his face
• 38:09
  to be the one that I was. Did he know about these three attempts? Well, you did. He didn't. No.
• 38:14
  None of my family do. I've never spoken to them about it to this day. Okay, I shall be posting
• 38:19
  this podcast anywhere where family members will see because I think it's too painful for them.
• 38:24
  I don't think they need to. I don't think there's any um value in in them knowing those things now.
• 38:30
  They they loved me. I just didn't let them at at that by by that time. And your dad your dad didn't
• 38:37
  know that. Sorry. Just No. No. He I think he just knew from the connection that we had how much pain
• 38:44
  I was in and that hurt him. But you knew obviously and the priory knew. Yes. Um and we won't go into
• 38:50
  that. I can tell you don't you'd rather not. So, but all of that is in your mind and you're
• 38:57
  thinking I just don't want to disappoint him. Is that what you're Yeah. thinking? I couldn't bear.
• 39:03
  Yeah. That that look that he had on his face when I told him I was going in. That look of sadness.
• 39:08
  Whenever I thought about doing something that potentially could lead to self harm, I just
• 39:14
  saw that look and I thought, I can't I can't bear that. I can't I can't do that. And I all he would
• 39:21
  want and all I can do for him now is get better. It's all I can do. He was so, you know, he used to
• 39:29
  say I could do anything. And you know, that's it's it's incredible because it's like his um
• 39:36
  he's looking out for you still, isn't he? And in his in his death, he's become like your guardian
• 39:40
  angel. And he's your motivation now to steer you away from all that that world that that stuff,
• 39:46
  you know. Yeah. And even now, you know, if I deal with some we still deal with this all the time,
• 39:51
  don't we? You know, life carries on. And even though life might look on the surface like it's
• 39:55
  all wonderful now, I still deal with stuff, you know, we all do. And I still have little things
• 39:59
  that my dad would have said to me that I go, "Oh, that's what he meant." you know, so when we're
• 40:06
  parenting and I now parent my children, I think I hope that they're they remember some things that
• 40:11
  even though like I might have said something to my son yesterday who's nine and it went over his head
• 40:17
  and he just asked me what was fatigue, maybe at some point further down the line, he'll go, "Ah,
• 40:21
  that's what mom meant, you know, and maybe then that'll help." And you know, I've had, you know,
• 40:26
  my mom's great and and and I've got other people in my life that have have helped since then. But
• 40:31
  yeah, that that was a real real turning point. And I think a lot of people around me at that point
• 40:37
  thought that that would be the end. You know, anybody that had seen how low I'd got knew that
• 40:41
  I'd been an impatient in the priary, you know, drugged up in a different way by that point. I
• 40:45
  was on all sorts of anti-depressants, dasopan, you know, zopacone, anything that that would help. Um,
• 40:54
  there was a real concern here that this would be it for me, I think. And actually, from that point
• 41:01
  on, I never considered not being here again. Oh. Um, I just had my mindset on getting better. And I
• 41:11
  think what's because I because I get asked so many times when I speak at school, um, what was it? How
• 41:17
  how did you get better? You know, what what did it? And what was your rock bottom? What was your
• 41:20
  turning point? And I think I don't always like sharing that that was it because I think you don't
• 41:25
  have to lose somebody that close to you to have a turning point because that's really demotivating
• 41:30
  for people, isn't it, that are listening and think it just needs to be I think it's just
• 41:36
  about finding something that's worth living for something inside. There's a little voice somewhere
• 41:42
  inside that goes actually it's worth just trying it out, isn't it? Yeah. Because I suppose get
• 41:49
  better. The thing that was I suppose the issue was that you didn't feel there was something to live
• 41:55
  for and you didn't want to respect your body and you didn't like yourself I think if if I may say
• 42:00
  that and then you sort of think well someone loved me. Yeah. You know and and I was good enough for
• 42:06
  them but you kind of had to lose them to realize that. Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't it have been great if
• 42:12
  I could have realized all I lost it? But you had to sort of go through that journey. So, we
• 42:20
  spoke about, you know, what happened and you you sort of the the rock, you know, the rock bottom,
• 42:25
  which we don't we don't want to talk about, but it is what it is. And then your dad passes. So,
• 42:31
  let's talk about the rebuilding cuz you've got to now rebuild this broken soul. You know,
• 42:36
  you've got to piece yourself back together. So, what do you do? What do you do to piece yourself
• 42:40
  back together? Uh it was quite a big thing for me to go and speak to some of those friends that had
• 42:46
  been such good friends, you know, when I was 18, 19, 20. Um the couple of friends that I'd made
• 42:52
  at BER, you know, I sat down with them and one of them said to me, "You used to play football,
• 42:57
  didn't you?" And I was like, "Yeah, I loved football." I'd have played it all day, every
• 43:00
  day if society allowed. Yeah. Um yeah, I loved it. Well, why don't you go and join football? You'll,
• 43:07
  you know, you'll find some people that aren't just trying to push drugs on you, you know, which is
• 43:10
  what current friend crowd. Yeah. Yeah. Finding friends, I think is what she was saying. Yeah.
• 43:18
  And I did I joined a football club and um started playing football again and met my wife who I'm
• 43:24
  married to today and a group of friends who are a great group of friends. And I mean, look, it was
• 43:30
  girls football and we went out a lot and we drank, but it was good, wholesome, normal levels weekend.
• 43:37
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a difference. There's a big difference. Yeah. And uh I I left BER because
• 43:44
  I couldn't bear the the kind of shadows that that remained from there, which was a shame because it
• 43:50
  was a fabulous company to work for and I'd enjoyed working. I'd met you to shed that skin. I did. I
• 43:55
  did. and I couldn't walk in to the reception area where my mom had told me that my dad had
• 44:00
  passed. Every morning I walked in and relived it. So I left. I got bounced around a couple of jobs
• 44:05
  because I struggled. I was still struggling. It wasn't overnight. It took years. Yeah. It
• 44:10
  took years, you know, I was on such a high dose of antid-depressants and sleeping tablets, you know,
• 44:16
  to to to reduce those gradually took years. But I knew somewhere inside of me that I wanted to do
• 44:24
  it. I knew that I was capable of doing something and I have quite a strong and I think I've always
• 44:30
  had because I've thought about this is it since I had all those difficulties or did I feel it even
• 44:35
  before that I have a strong sense of service of wanting to do good of wanting to make lives
• 44:41
  better. I know that sounds a bit cliched, but to, you know, to help make life better for others cuz
• 44:46
  cuz you've suffered yourself, some joy and some goodness and make the world a better place cuz
• 44:52
  there's so much crap, isn't there? It's like an emotional shift, a mind, you know, a shaking up
• 44:58
  to sort of wake up, you know, this is what you're doing is wrong. And then you were aware enough of
• 45:03
  yourself to implement changes. It just made your life a little bit easier along the way. Like,
• 45:07
  okay, that's a bit stressful for me. Seeing this thing is a bit stressful. I'm just going to avoid
• 45:11
  that thing because it's a bit toxic. And then you gently gently move that aside and then let me just
• 45:16
  find an easier and you've you've got to do that, don't you? Like you can't deal with everything
• 45:21
  at the same time. You have to make life easier for yourself and then you found something you
• 45:25
  enjoyed which is like oh I like football. Yeah. Boom. Yeah. That's like Yeah. You connect to your
• 45:31
  old self. These are the things that people can do like what do you like? Yeah. What makes you happy?
• 45:36
  What's a little bit toxic? Who's toxic in your life? Yeah. cut them out like literally. Yeah.
• 45:42
  Absolutely. And that, you know, that's that's you have to you have to whether it's on social media
• 45:47
  or whether it's just in life in day-to-day stuff. If they're not lifting you up. Yeah. If they don't
• 45:52
  energize you or they don't lift you up or they don't make you feel good. I mean, everybody has
• 45:56
  the odd day, you know, where they have an argument or whatever. That's different. That's different.
• 46:01
  It's toxic. Toxins, you know, toxic people, but also toxins, like you say, in that environment.
• 46:07
  Yeah. that reception room or that particular whatever road or Yeah. vibe you've got to it cut
• 46:15
  it out. It's like a cancer. You've got to get rid of it. Yeah. And it's just making healthy choices,
• 46:19
  isn't it? Dayto day. But it it didn't it didn't come easy. It took a long time. Yeah. But yeah,
• 46:24
  you've done extremely well because you've had to pull yourself, yank yourself out of something
• 46:29
  awful, you know, like sinking sand and you had to sort of drowning and you have to Yeah. and stay
• 46:36
  stay here, you know. So, that that's another thing because you've got to continue. You've got to just
• 46:41
  be strong and and pioneer forward. But I suppose for anyone listening, um what have you learned
• 46:49
  about addiction and recovery that other people might not understand? You know, I I'm not I don't
• 46:59
  think I'm the best person to talk about addiction because I look back and I think I took drugs to
• 47:03
  escape. Was I an addict? I don't think so. I don't think uh you know I think addicts need a different
• 47:11
  path. And I met addicts along the way. And um the support, the similarities, but there's also big
• 47:17
  differences. You know, I used alcohol and drugs to escape and to escape what I was dealing with. And
• 47:22
  therefore, I needed to sort those things out. And I needed to, you know, look at what it was
• 47:28
  that was making me feel that way about myself and correct them and correct the internal message and
• 47:32
  be kind to myself and and all those things. And naturally, I I didn't have a point where I said,
• 47:38
  "I'm not drinking from tomorrow. I'm not taking another drink from tomorrow." No,
• 47:42
  it just gradually became less and less because the more I was kind to myself, the more I gave myself
• 47:47
  credit for the things that I did do to help other people and that that I did, you know, perhaps I
• 47:52
  wasn't all bad. you know, perhaps there was a nice little part of me that could come out. And
• 47:56
  um that I think that's different. Uh that, you know, gradually I didn't want to drink anymore
• 48:04
  and I didn't I didn't need to I didn't need to take drugs. I didn't need to drink. And and and
• 48:08
  life just gradually changed. And you know what? Are we 20 years on and it's still evolving? I'm
• 48:13
  still learning how to be kinder to myself. So for someone then in that case who's trying to
• 48:19
  escape you know and they're drinking to escape or you know whatever taking drugs to escape what
• 48:25
  advice do you have to them based on what you've gone through other ways to escape you know that's
• 48:30
  not escaping those things is just running towards more darkness you know it only leads towards that
• 48:36
  and it's so temporary you know your fix lasts a couple of hours if that and you're the one
• 48:42
  that's still running around at 7:00 in the morning trying to get everybody to continue the night out
• 48:45
  and most normal people have, you know, gone and got on with their lives and it's a lonely lonely
• 48:50
  world. You know, the the real escape is to find healthy communities and activities to get involved
• 48:58
  in where everybody else is battling something. Everybody's struggling. You know, for me it was
• 49:02
  football, but I'm now in other communities, you know, running communities and I like to try any
• 49:08
  activity possible. I went open water swimming this year and there's a whole community of people there
• 49:12
  to access. It's so good, you know, Thrilling. Yeah. And those I think there's so much more now,
• 49:18
  isn't there? You can listen to loads of podcasts and there's loads of things around nutrition and
• 49:24
  activities and communities that you can access. Do you know what? I had I met this um I'm not
• 49:30
  going to give away personal details, but I met this this woman about 2 years ago or something
• 49:35
  and she was quite into all this sort of stuff, you know, and um heavy drinker and we know for
• 49:40
  sure she was doing drugs and things, but she she got she started to, you know, speak to me and
• 49:44
  whatever and we're talking what talking and then she's like, "Well, what's your vice? Come on, what
• 49:49
  do you do? What do you do? You must do something. Come on." And she was really believing, you know,
• 49:54
  I was like, "What do you what do you mean?" It wasn't. But she was like, "What?" Basically,
• 49:59
  I assume the question is, "What do you do to get this thrill kick? What is it? What drugs
• 50:03
  of choice or something, you know?" And I was like thinking about genuinely the answer to that is I
• 50:10
  love competition and exercise. And yes, especially the competitive thing, I find it thrilling. Even
• 50:17
  if I'm on my own, I'm competing with myself on that run, walk, that's thrilling. Yeah,
• 50:23
  absolutely. And finding that sense of purpose. I think when you find a sense of purpose, and I have
• 50:30
  a few, you know, I have a sense of purpose around my work and my business and that's a very purpose-
• 50:34
  driven business and that, you know, has given me so much. My strongest sense of purpose is being
• 50:41
  a mom. Yeah. You know, for sure. you know, over I would give everything else up to be the best mom I
• 50:47
  could be to my two children, but I think that me balancing things like work and showing them that
• 50:51
  it's healthy to exercise and all those things is important. So, um there's that and then the sense
• 50:56
  of purpose around health and wellbeing. I mean, what have we got if we haven't got our wellbeing?
• 51:00
  You know, is you only have to be someone that goes through a health scare to realize that oh god that
• 51:07
  you know that I think a lot of people listening are going through their health scares right now.
• 51:11
  I mean, everyone's getting nothing else matters at that point, does it? You can get another job. So
• 51:16
  scary. You know, you can you can you have to have breaks from exercise and all these other things,
• 51:20
  but you can go back to it, you know, but your health and so the last few years for me is
• 51:28
  uh time is allowed being a mom. Uh it's not easy when they're little ones, is it? But as they're
• 51:32
  getting a bit older and I've got a bit more time for me is around nutrition, sleep, you know,
• 51:37
  and doing the things that just keep me well and hopefully healthy for as long as I can be. Yeah.
• 51:42
  I used to not be that bothered with health till I became a mom. And then it's like you worry
• 51:47
  about if you're not there for them. Absolutely. It's all about absolutely, you know, I was 26,
• 51:52
  which for some people when my dad died, I was 26. And some people have lost parents much younger
• 51:57
  than that. you know, I was an adult to most people, but actually I was too young. You know,
• 52:02
  that that felt young and looking back it feels young. Um, I don't want to be I don't want my
• 52:08
  children to be only 26. I want them to be Yeah. well into being a parent themselves and adult and
• 52:14
  and all these things. So, what is your I mean, we touched on the career in the beginning, but what
• 52:19
  does what does your career look like now and what drives you? Well, I uh I fell into recruitment
• 52:25
  as most people do. Anybody that's that works in recruitment, if you ask them how they got into it,
• 52:29
  they'll say they fell into recruitment. Um because it was health health care. I'd enjoyed working at
• 52:34
  BER. There was always that healthcare um side to it. Um fell into the world of uh nursing agencies,
• 52:42
  which gets quite a lot of bad press uh because obviously the NHS spends quite a bit of money
• 52:47
  on nursing agencies. Um but I got to a point where um I realized that actually I could drive
• 52:57
  this purpose-driven business where we decrease the amount that the NHS is having to spend on agency
• 53:02
  by building the technology which we've done um to automate integrate uh transactions that mean the
• 53:10
  cost can come down a lot for the NHS. The costs have got to come down. Yeah, absolutely. And so
• 53:14
  it's a range and the quality up. Absolutely. the quality. I mean, the nurses and the health care
• 53:18
  professionals that we have, they're just they're the people that you should have on this podcast,
• 53:23
  they are the most incredible people, and they've been through so much with the pandemic. They
• 53:27
  always put everybody else first. They're just incredible. And I have this privileged job of
• 53:31
  getting to work with them and and being a part of this this long-term sustainable workforce plan
• 53:37
  that that we have in place now for the NHS. So what's your your goal your ideal uh career-wise?
• 53:47
  I would like the business uh for Nell to have really changed that landscape for agencies to
• 53:54
  have to work in a more innovative way to bring the cost down for the NHS. The NHS needs a flexible
• 54:00
  workforce. It can't come away from it, you know, it needs it. um but to to really inspire other
• 54:06
  agencies to to drive that cost down and form part of this workforce plan. But in addition to that,
• 54:11
  I'm just in the beginning of conversations around setting up a charity with a couple
• 54:16
  of wonderful people that are on board and gonna help because one thing that we do really well is
• 54:20
  we connect people with organizations. And there are so many organizations out there in the world
• 54:25
  that need healthare professionals. And we have this app that connects all these people together.
• 54:31
  And we can use the app to connect the thousands of healthare professionals that we have on our
• 54:35
  books to charities across the world that access communities that perhaps have no access to health
• 54:43
  care. You know, these are communities that don't have clinics or hospitals and uh and they need
• 54:49
  health care professionals as volunteers to go and help them set the services up and uh leave them
• 54:54
  more self sustaining. That would be a wonderful thing to do. That would be the goal. Yeah. So,
• 55:03
  do you regret your your past, let's say, the the darker side of what you've had to go through,
• 55:09
  or would you do it all again? No. I mean, it would have been nice if I'd not had to go through those
• 55:16
  things or some of those things to get to where I am. Um, and there are some actions that I took in
• 55:24
  my darkest moments that hurt other people that I would not do again. But I don't think you can have
• 55:31
  regrets because it doesn't serve a purpose anyway. I've met some incredible people. It's given me
• 55:37
  resilience, determination. And it's given me skills that I hope to share with other people. And
• 55:44
  you know, maybe even just help one younger person, younger me, get through this life without quite as
• 55:50
  much of the darkness in it, then no, no regrets. It's all good. No regrets. You're here. Jane,
• 55:59
  thank you for coming on our podcast. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me. [Music]