Latest / Pathological Positivity / The Map to Manhood – with James Stephenson – Episode #707
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- This is Live On Purpose Radio episode 707, the map to manhood with James Stevenson. Now is the only time to create and live the life you love. I'm doctor Paul Jenkins, the positivity psychologist. My job is to connect you to powerful positive psychology principles that immediately upgrade your relationships, business, and mental health. Are you ready? Let's jump in. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Live On Purpose Radio. This is doctor Paul, the shrink who expands your life. Have you wondered what does it take for a boy to become a man, especially if he has to grow up without a father? To show the way, in this episode, I'm going to dig into that with James Stevenson. He is the author of the map to manhood and founder of mystepdad.org. Welcome to Live on Purpose Radio, James. Thank you, doctor Paul. It's a treat a treat and an honor to be here. Episode seven zero seven. I'm writing that one down. So... Seven zero seven. Yes. You know what, James? As I was reading your book, and having talked to you before, I got to know you a little bit recently where we decided to have this conversation. And it became very apparent to me very quickly that there are strong reasons why you are passionate about this topic. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and why this is so important to you? Sure. I'd love to. And, again, thank you. Thank you for having me on the show. I appreciate the opportunity. The the quick answer is that I grew up without a father in my home, and I did not realize how much that impacted me even into, well into adulthood. There... There's challenges that come at different times of life in that situation. One of them is the area that I try to focus on now. It's the young men coming of age. In other words, entering adulthood. 18 to 25, 18 to 30 these days where if you don't have someone that's a positive role model that can help you, it just complicates an already challenging time of life. And and I could see that in retrospect. You know, fortunately, I had some positive male role models in my life, and I mentioned the one in the book. But, as I went into my career, I see a lot of stuff for, that... That's targeted for helping young women, which is fantastic. But I remember thinking... Seeing some of these things, and I have a technical engineering background, and they'd have a lot of STEM classes encouraging you for girls, which again is fantastic. But I remember thinking as I saw those, you know, if I was my 18 year old self already questioning my own abilities and seeing stuff like this, it would be like almost a a slap in the face, another another hit to the gut where I already am questioning my own worth, and it looks to me like I'm not wanted by at least some people. Now I... That's not the purpose why they're doing that. So... But but that's how I would have processed that in that time. So that... That's that's a little bit of why I'm I'm passionate about trying to help that now. When I was going through that, it was more the exception. But now, unfortunately, it's a lot more common too. And that's the other aspect is there's not a lot of resources for young men that don't have guidance and, and they need it. And we're losing a lot of, a lot of who could be really positive contributing members of society with a little bit of extra help. You know, well, there's a couple of observations that I have about this. Mhmm. You're not a social worker. You're not a mental health professional. No. And here you are writing a book about personal development and and growth and how to become a man, basically. You've you've written your book as the map to manhood. I know there's a lot of visuals in the book that actually place these little milestones on a map Yeah. That you can kind of track. And as I was reading it, sometimes I would think, well well, yeah. And then I remembered, but how would they know? Yeah. And this is where your heart is. You've... We've got a saying sometimes here at Live on Purpose that your mess becomes your message. Yeah. Yeah. And living that experience yourself as a young man looking for the map, the direction, and without a father immediately available to you, it became apparent very quickly that other role models... And you use the the term stepdad, which I think is interesting Yeah. Because it doesn't have to be someone who married your mom. Right. Right. And that's kind of your point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's, well, you know, my my name's spelled with a p h, so the first four letters of my word... My last name are step. You know? Ah. Yeah. But it does have, I... I've looked for a different branding because for most people that have a stepdad, it's probably wasn't a positive experience. So, hopefully, I can change that connotation. A lot of cases, it was. They were very grateful for their stepdads, but a lot of them didn't step up in their stepdad scenario. But but to your point, yes, doctor Paul, it is. It's... The guy that was my stepdad, he he he didn't marry my mom. He was a guy in my neighborhood that worked with our our scout group, our youth group, and, and he was just a a surrogate dad for me. He really, really stepped in and was there for years of my life. It made a huge difference. You know, I'm thinking about my own experience. Now I got to grow up with my father. Mhmm. My father is still alive and well into his eighties. Good. And I'm grateful for that. He didn't get to grow up with his father. Yeah. His dad was killed in a plane crash when dad was only five years old. Wow. And so here's my dad being raised by a single mom, he and his two little brothers. So... And I just imagine my grandmother, you know, with these three little boys Mhmm. And doing a stellar job with limited resources. And then she married the person that I know as my grandpa. But he was my dad's stepdad. Mhmm. And I've heard dad talk about this, how, you know, there's always issues, but how grateful he was to have that man step into his life and and show him some of the things that he had no other way of knowing. And grandma couldn't be both. So... And and then you mentioned also, James, you know, scout leaders or coaches or people in the community or in the church or synagogue. People who can step in and provide some of that guidance and leadership. Mhmm. And that doesn't always happen either. So we have a lot of young men who are being raised without that influence. And I'm I'm seeing that this is what really speaks to your heart because you've been in that place and you see the importance of it. Yeah. And I feel like I I had a taste of it, and believe me, it was enough of a taste because there are challenges. Like I mentioned, some of those things I didn't resolve until I'm in my fifties. And, the... It goes with you through your life. But the practical things, you know, I had a lot of help with in people like Mark Gould. He wasn't the only one. There were other other men in my life that were, you know, friends' dads that I could observe and watch and and get an idea of how they do it. But the but the the challenge is, you know, particularly when you're 16, 17, you're looking ahead in life, you're thinking, okay. I'm gonna finish school soon. I gotta I gotta be an adult. Am I am I gonna be able to? Do I know how to? Do I... I looked at... Forward to being married. I wanted a family of my own. And, there's a lot of questioning. Well, how how am I gonna know how to be a dad when I didn't have a dad in the home to to show me how, you know, to to observe? So those are some of the questions that that roll around in your mind. And, you know, you you get to adulthood. You think, well, I can I can logic my way through this? And and there's a lot of truth to that in terms of the practicality. But for me, the real healing didn't come until you go through through the pain of the reality that you had to go through. You know, why wasn't dad there for me? Why did why did he leave me? In in adult logic, you say, okay. Well, he didn't he didn't leave me. You know, they had problems with their marriage. He split up. He ended up two states away. Right? But that little boy brain doesn't know that. And and so you just... There's something wrong with you, potentially. I mean, that's the conclusion that the boy child brain comes to. And, and it... It's hard to let go of that. And you can't... My experience was you can't you can't resolve that without going through the pain of facing that despite the adult logic that we hide behind when when we get to adulthood. That healing is so crucial. And as you pointed out so well in your book, there are some foundational principles or skills too Yeah. Yeah. That need to be in place. And without assuming that young men in our world can just, you know, happen upon those or know them inherently Mhmm. I I love the way in your book you've broken that down into four primary areas. Yeah. And there's there's little, paths, if you will. I guess if we're talking about a map, you know, there's Yeah. There's little markers or milestones that you can work on within each of these four areas. Mhmm. What in your mind, James, are these foundational skills that young men need to have? Yeah. Well, the the areas that are... They're at biggest risk of not developing are discipline, self discipline. Mhmm. Usually, traditionally, in in practice, the fathers are typically more geared to discipline than mothers, particularly worn out single moms who are just trying to make it through a day. And, boy, my hat's off. I I... My mom raised five kids. I happen to be the youngest of five. So, like, your grandmother raised three. I I saw. I I lived it with her. I was part of it. So my hat is off to to single moms that are raising kids on their own. It's a... That's a ton of work. My my wife and I raised five kids, and I remember days where I'm thinking, two of us can't do this. How the heck did my mom ever do this? Yeah. I know. Alright. But, but discipline. So discipline is one. Yeah. Social skills is another one. Again, that depends on if your father's a good role model for that or not, but, hopefully, they've developed some some capacity for social interaction. So social skills, a lot of that comes with the self confidence too. So the discipline, the social skills, the the biggest area is is developing your capacity and emotion to feel and express love. And and the heart of that is loving yourself, learning to love yourself. And there's a lot of reasons for that as a as a boy that grows up without a dad. And then the last one is is really a direction in life. Your purpose is is do you have a goal? Do you do you have a reason that... What... What's lies ahead for you? What are you aiming at? And having some direction and purpose in life and learning how to enjoy the the journey along the way. Mhmm. I I had a guy ask me, you know, I I was telling a story about Mark Gould, who was on a different podcast. He says, well, did Mark have, did he have specific things he was trying to teach you? And and, you know, the answer to that was no. He he he was just he was just, I I just learned by observation, and he helped me with specific questions. But I started thinking, well, what are the things that someone might be missing if they grow up without a dad? And that's where I arrived at these four paths and the various milestones that you've made reference to. So, if I caught that correctly, discipline, especially self discipline. Self discipline. Yeah. You know, I was having a meeting with a young man I was having a meeting with a young man yesterday along these lines, and we were talking about chores. Mhmm. And this... I know this is one of the milestones that you mentioned in your book. You know, that we have to find it in ourselves to do the things we don't feel like doing. Mhmm. And that's part of maturing. Right? I mean, welcome to the planet, people. You get to do some things you don't feel like doing. And this is, one of those foundational skills. You mentioned social skills, which is all about developing healthy relationships. Mhmm. And I'm thinking... You know, I thought this is... I was reading your book too. In the context of young men growing up without a father, how does does an adult man treat an adult woman? Mhmm. And there are a lot of bad examples out there. Mhmm. And, in fact, some of these young men may have been exposed to some of those less favorable examples in the past. Mhmm. But, again, how will they know unless we show them, unless we share that? You know, you talk about mister Gould, who is one of your mentors. And Mhmm. I'm sure you got to observe him interacting with or treating adult women in a certain way. Mhmm. I'm I'm curious if you have a a thought about that. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny you bring that up because, one of the things about Mark, it was nice. On Sunday afternoons, you know, we didn't we didn't watch football. We weren't big sports fam family, I guess. With mom raising five kids, it was more survival mode. But on Sunday afternoons, I'd I'd go over to his house and, to show my age. I mean, he had a microwave oven. That was not as common back then, but he'd melt cheese on little crackers, and we'd sit there and watch NFL football. And so I never even thought about it, but the way he treated his wife, it's just observation. I mean, she was an equal partner, and he was kind to her, and he was I I don't know that he had to be defensive of her, but I remember he told one story. He was on a cruise, and, he was he was a fun guy. So they had a dress up contest. I guess it was, like, over Halloween time or something. And he said he was... He won the men's and and then some lady won the women's, and it was, I guess, a skimpy outfit. And he said they were supposed to dance with each other. He finally said, I I can't do this because everywhere I touch her, it's skin, and I'd... I'm just not comfortable with that. So, you know, and and I wasn't there to see that, but that's a story he told. So it's it's like you pick that stuff up from observation from your role models. And if you don't have those positive role models, then, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna draw some unhealthy conclusions. What gets amplified in social media and online are... Tend to be the bad examples and, which is unfortunate. There are a lot of good examples. There are I'm convinced the vast majority of human beings are good people doing good things. I agree. But that's just not what you tend to see and not what gets talked about in social media, which is where a lot of young people spend a lot of their time. Well, you mentioned social media, obviously, but even mainstream media. Yeah. Put them the news. Oh, yeah. That's... And we'll we'll see these sensational stories about these terrible things that happen and the way people treat each other sometimes. But like you said, you know, James, we we can get distracted or misled sometimes into thinking, well, that's an example of how our world's going. Mhmm. But the news is only news because it's uncommon. Mhmm. The vast majority of people are getting up every day, doing good things all day long, and going back to bed and doing the same thing again tomorrow. Mhmm. And we lose track of that sometimes when we see the sensationalized stories. Uh-huh. But back to, you know, your mission and your purpose in writing this book, there are those who don't have a regular exposure to those very good examples. Mhmm. And providing that or stepping up. I've... I got a sense, James, as I was reading your book, that this may fall into the hands of a young man who needs this information. Yeah. Yeah. It's also available for the mentors and the coaches and the stepdads of the world who, like you, have a place in their heart for serving these these young men who need it so desperately. It could be... And and the single moms that are raising boys too. Yes. I I hope... I I haven't thought about that as much because I do. When I wrote that book, I was really thinking in my mind, this is a young man aged 12 to 18. I... To try to be Mark Gould to a larger audience, I have gone to a social media platform. You know, making videos on YouTube was how I started the YouTube channel. I I was cross posting some on on a different platform on... And, one of those had a viral run randomly. I don't know what what causes that, but, you know, it was exciting. And and, but the stats that came back were a lot of the people watching are actually 25 to 45. You know, it was... The the bell curve was really more around 35 to 40, which surprised me. It was a... It was right before I I was in editing with the book, but it gave me enough heads up to go, let me let me try to rewrite a little bit of this so it speaks to a little bit older audience. But it's still primarily geared for a a younger... You know, that coming of age, 18 to 25 is if you really want to get your life in order, if you wanna fill the gaps that you may have because you haven't had a dad there pushing you and loving you, hopefully, then here's the things that you can work on to get... Help get you there. Yeah. It's pretty tough if they have to do it on their own, frankly. And I don't know that reading a self improvement book is the highest priority on an 18 year old's list. But Well, that's one of the thoughts I just had because how many of them are searching for how do I become a man? Yeah. Yeah. When really they're distracted by other things, you know, like gasoline and perfume and Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a lot of competing factors. And so it doesn't surprise me too much, James, and I'm thinking that you who are listening to this con... Context today, this interview that I'm having with James, you're probably not in James's target demographic. Right. Right. But I bet you know someone who is. Oh, yeah. I... I'd be I'd be amazed if the vast majority of those listening can't think for ten seconds and come up with one or probably even more young men that they may know. It might be a nephew. It might be a grandchild. It might be, you know, kid down the street, someone from church, whoever, that isn't in that boat because you you can't throw a stone and not hit somebody that that is in that boat. Well, it's that common. You know, I was gonna mention this at the end. I still wanna get back to your other two foundational principles, but, you've got a guide that you've created for you, dear listener, you who are listening and you've thought of someone. Go grab this guide. You can find it at guide.mystepdad,all1word,.org. Yeah. I think I got that right, Jay. You did. Yes. And we've got a link in the show notes. So go grab that guide. And the book is great too because I think it reads kind of like a guide, a map, to manhood. Getting back to your principles, you you said you emphasized this one. Now, James, you've listed it as third, but you emphasize it as probably the most important, and that's love. Mhmm. Can you talk about that for just a minute? Yeah. Yeah. When I when I first drafted this map, you know, it it it was the first path because, frankly, it is the most important one. But it's just like learning math. You don't you don't start with calculus and differential equations. You start with addition, subtraction, and work your way up. So it made more sense to put put it in order of, hey. Let's get the discipline in place first. Let's learn to be comfortable with other people, the social skills. But, really, what's at the heart of healing and becoming a man is the heart. It it is your capacity to love and particularly to learn to love yourself. And the reason... It's a a very real reason is that conclusion I mentioned before. If you're growing up, your dad's not there as a child, you know, adults are godlike figures. So you don't impute... You don't assign to him that it's something he did wrong. It's gotta be something with you. I mean, naturally, I wanted I wanted my dad in my life. I wanted my mom and dad to be together. I mean, that was... That would have been nirvana for me. It it just wasn't the reality. But I always hoped for that. But, again, as a child, you you draw the conclusion that maybe something's wrong with you, and that's why he left you. Mhmm. It's... You are gonna go through life with the conclusion that something's wrong with you unless you confront that and address that. And the good news is you can. You can learn to do it. You can understand. And and you can learn to love yourself. That's that's the heart. That's the key to healing and and getting through that. But it's not an easy process. At least it wasn't for me. It can be kind of challenging, but I love that in your book, you you approach it with the milestones. Right? And in the love section, you start with pets. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was brilliant, James, because one... And you make it very practical too. Here's the worksheet. Here's how you check it off from day to day. And and I think the task was, you know, get a pet, take care of it for sixty days or six months or whatever it was. Right? I mean, you're gonna you're gonna dump it after. So you got it for the rest of your life or kid's life. But... But that's kind of the backdoor. I remember I was working with this, a foster kid. K. Also growing up without either of his parents, really. Mhmm. Mhmm. And he had become kind of embittered a little bit about relationships. Yeah. He was still learning the social skills and the self control and and discipline. But this foster mom brilliantly had the same idea. Let's get this kid a puppy. Mhmm. And that was... I mean, he didn't see it coming. Mhmm. He didn't see it coming that his heart had the capacity to love. And he learned that through this puppy Mhmm. And taking care of this puppy. And it opened the door to the other steps because like you said, that's not the most important part of love. Mhmm. At some point, we have to love ourselves, and that opens up the capacity to love others as well. Exactly. But the pet, I I just wanted to acknowledge that because I thought it was a brilliant step, Jay. Well, you know, we had we had pets growing up, and and it is. It's a safe way... It's it's a safe way to learn to love because you're feeling that emotion of love. A dog, a, you know, a puppy, cats. We had more cats than dogs. We had bulls. But but it's a way to develop that emotion of love. And Yeah. But... And self discipline because it takes some responsibility to have a pet. So it's kind of a a twofer in that one. But... Well, in a hidden advantage... And we don't always think about this, but this is the hesitant sometimes to get a pet because usually their lifespan is not that great, And some are more than others. Mhmm. But almost guaranteed, you get to experience also loss and grief and some of these other important human emotions. And I say they're important because if we go through life avoiding those Mhmm. We shut ourselves off from the joy and the richness of a full human life experience. Mhmm. And a pet will deliver that. Mhmm. We might think unfortunately, but I'm gonna put that in the fortunate category. No. I I agree. It's important to learn to process the grief and the sadness when you lose a pet, which is part of having a pet too. Yes. And it's when, not if. Yeah. Yeah. There's one more. The name of the show, James, Live on Purpose Radio. Yeah. Yeah. This is where you get your positives, but it... We've branded it all these years as Live on Purpose. And that's the final point that you make in your book. I'm gonna give you just a chance to address that before we wrap up today too. Well, as a lead into that, doctor Paul, before I before I address that, a a young man who's growing up who wishes he had the experiences of a loving dad in his home, One thing I want him to understand is that he can still experience that which he did not get as a child, but he can do it as an adult, as a a husband, as a father. And It's not too late? It it... No. And and you know what? It's just as good from the dad's side, maybe even better as from the kid's side. I mean, wrestling with your kids on the ground, you know, being a tickle monster and having them, you know, scared and run away, but really wanting you to come and chase them, you know, and knowing when to stop and all that stuff, that play that you didn't have with your dad when you were growing up, you get to have that as as an adult man if you choose to do it. And I share that now because that last path, that live on purpose path, and that's what it is. It's the purpose path. That's what I named it for I'd known you already you already had that name, but it's it's your direction in life. You know? These days, we don't emphasize family. Like like, it was much more traditional back when you and I were kids. Right? So even couples don't don't have as many kids, you know, and that's okay. That's their choice. But there's a lot of happiness and a lot of growth and a lot of development that is missed out on that you just can't compensate for what you get in a nuclear family at at home. And so Yeah. Part of that purpose hopefully is a a long term, a lifelong relationship and family, but but the path is just choose whatever it is. Choose what you want. If you didn't get those experiences and you truly want them, you can have them, but you gotta choose the direction. You gotta take steps. The biggest thing is you've got to become the person that can experience those things. And that's what that last pass is all about is becoming, I I don't wanna say your full potential. That sounds... But becoming who you're capable of being and who you want to be, who you choose to be. It's where you get to create and live a life that you love. Mhmm. Regardless of what your past is or the the context around how you grew up or who was around. You get to become that. Mhmm. Oh, James. I love it. I knew that I would enjoy this conversation. Folks, if you've enjoyed it too, again, the book is called The Map to Manhood. Our guest today, James Stevenson, spelled with a p h, is the author of that book. He's also founded my stepdad. There's a .org for that, mystepdad.org. And if you want that guide we talked about, guide.mystepdad.org. And that is your gift here from, from James today. Thank you, James, for sharing your experience, your insights with us here today at Live On Purpose Radio. My my pleasure. Thank you, doctor Paul, for inviting me on. It's been been an honor. Alright, you guys. You've heard it. Time to apply it and also share it with someone you thought of during our conversation today. That's the way we get the word out. Let's all go live on purpose. Did you get what you came for? Give yourself the gift of taking real action on what you realized today. Please share this episode with someone you know would value it and leave us a rating too. It's time now to live on purpose.