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Belonging and the Church in East Texas | Paul Haygood · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me from East Texas, Tyler, Texas, is Paul Hagert. Welcome. Paul Haygood: Thank you, Lee. I'm glad to be here. I'm stoked that this is happening. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ man, guys you're in for a treat. Paul Higgett is like I said from Tyler, Texas, preacher's kid, raised Southern Baptist ⁓ and eventually landed himself studying philosophy in Switzerland. He's lived all over the United States, particularly the Western coast and has since returned to Texas. And I'm gonna let him expand on his story, his faith journey because Paul, wow, with such a ⁓ rich history, lots. lots of academia, lots of travel and conversations. Talk to me ⁓ about being raised by a preacher, Southern Baptist, and where you are in Paul Haygood: Yes. Well, it's taken me a while to get to the academia piece. ⁓ I gave this a go at Texas A ⁓ back in the 90s, a first attempt. And I'm grateful now to be finally finishing, fingers crossed, in December an undergraduate degree in social sciences and double major ⁓ with also music being the other one. So. ⁓ It's been a long and circuitous road to this place and this moment. ⁓ I swore, swore, swore growing up in Tyler that I would never, ever move back for a variety of reasons. And remind me, you've been to Tyler once or twice? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, so I went to Pine Cove a few summers. ⁓ Paul Haygood: Yes. Yeah, we may have been there around the same time. It's possible. I went to Pine Cove ⁓ many summers and then worked there four separate summers in the 90s. So in any case, ⁓ Tyler, Texas is an incredibly unique place ⁓ from a number of regards. And we'll get into that in just a moment. you know, let me just as a teaser, look at this flyer that I saw recently. Check this out. worship karaoke. Yeah, so that's probably showing up reversed there as the robots do. in any case, it's just one small example of a sort of subculture of ⁓ what I might call performative Christianity. It's very, ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: okay. Paul Haygood: very, very prevalent in these parts. So not that we'll get into that performative ⁓ aspect so much in this ⁓ convo today, but ⁓ to give you and your listeners a little background as to what Tyler is about, ⁓ before I say more on myself for just a moment, ⁓ Tyler is considered to be the westernmost city of the US South. by Colin Woodward, right? he said that it's very, close to Dallas, but for whatever reason, the settlers of the US South ⁓ migrated as far west as Tyler and then kind of stopped the westward movement. And a lot of that was about plantations and movement of plantations and movement of plantation workers. And that's a whole nother story, but. That's just one of the pieces sort of contextually about Tyler that makes it unique as it's definitely immersed in all things deep south. the other is, of course, it's in the Bible Belt. ⁓ So those are ⁓ part of the reasons that I was happy to move away. And I did spend some time in Switzerland studying philosophy of religion in my younger years ⁓ at La Brie Fellowship, which was started by Francis Schaeffer and Edith Schaeffer in the 1960s. Francis Schaeffer wrote a lot of books, he ⁓ joined forces, may recall, with C. Everett Koop, surgeon general in the 80s, ⁓ late 70s and early 80s, and they together created those first images of the aborted fetuses that were broadcast all over the globe for people to see and then to, in a way, ⁓ rile up ⁓ some passions and temperaments to. to create more of a coalescing around what the religious right was newly forming itself to be during those times. So when I was studying there in the 90s, I was buying into, ⁓ I was buying in very much to fundamentalist Christianity ⁓ and was sure that I wanted to be a missionary perhaps in Central America, but in any case. ⁓ From the ages of 18 to 23, I was struggling with these things. And finally at 23, I said, there's no way I can continue to believe in such a narrow, rigid, static, myopic form of any type of so-called God. So in the years since then, I've kind of wandered all over the place, philosophically, religiously, epistemologically, and And now I'm kind of full circle where I'm appreciating Christ anew, but with a different lens, a different approach, ⁓ a different heart, a different mind, and a different group of folks as well. So there's a lovely group of progressive Christians, excuse me, here in Tyler, Texas, that operate under the auspices of a 501c3 called Open Table Faith. ⁓ For example, Open Table Faith is bringing William Paul Young, who wrote the shack to Tyler next week to speak. So we're excited ⁓ about that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's such a rich history and you have so much to speak on. What were the things that led up to you walking away from the faith the first time at 23? Was there a specific theology, doctrine, verse or story? What were parts of that? Paul Haygood: You know, even though, ⁓ love this question, even though I was familiar with this, what I think was a Vatican II ⁓ position that declared to the post-Vatican II Catholics that it's okay to believe in salvation ⁓ outside of conscious awareness, outside of an individual being consciously aware of that happening, right? My understanding is that ⁓ during Vatican II, they decided that salvation is still a thing. It still is only possible through Jesus, but Jesus works in mysterious ways so we can relax our rigid ⁓ view on how that works, what it needs to look like. And so it ushered in this whole new ⁓ realm of possibility for all of us to consider that others might be. what's commonly known as saved, right? Outside of the auspices of formalized Christianity. And I mentioned that simply as a sort of a metaphor for my own life. ⁓ It's taken me a lot of time, but I've come full circle to kind of agree with that sort of Vatican II thinking or that piece of it rather, ⁓ even though I obviously don't know much about all of all of that sort of Catholic undertaking in that regard. I nonetheless am very appreciative of all paths that hold a pluralistic inclusivity such that there's no prescriptive formula that says, know, this is it. This is the answer. We've landed on the answer. And all you need to do is agree with, you know, by by signing or holding up your hand and agreeing out loud. So it was that sort of, that sort of problem that, that prompted me to leave Christianity in my twenties. The problem of one right way thinking being so vocalized, so perpetuated, ⁓ so enforced even that, ⁓ that it just doesn't hold space under that big umbrella or under that big tent. for anyone who views things outside of that sort of seemingly monolithic stance. Does that make sense? Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah, yeah. Like it's just so, well, and you go on to study philosophy in Switzerland. ⁓ Can you clarify, I know that you said that right after you had a connection with Francis Schaeffer, was the Swiss philosophy school under Schaeffer or separate? Paul Haygood: It was, ⁓ he was not living at the time. was there in the early ninet- I was there twice. The first time was in the early nineties. I stayed there a year and a half. It's an English speaking school in the, in the Swiss French part of the Alps there. ⁓ I did work under the tutelage or study under the tutelage of his daughter Prisca, his eldest daughter. And, and then as well his ⁓ granddaughter's husband by the name of Greg Lowry, not the famous Greg Lowry or Lowry, but a different one with a similar name who said some fascinating things about the image of God, which I'd love to share with you if we have time. But that those philosophy studies were, you know, I was, I was 19 at the time and I did not get to do a deep dive. But that was more of a broad survey of sort of apologetics. various proofs for God's existence and ⁓ kind of a philosophy of religion 101, if you will, but it was within the framework of evangelical Christianity. The study center itself was very inclusive in that anyone was allowed to be there and study there and participate, but the workers and the methodology and the mission and the message were all very much evangelical Christians. Leigh/@followtheleighder: that's a great point to note that you saw this internationally decades ago ⁓ and that this isn't just an isolated American phenomena that this is going on. Paul Haygood: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: worldwide. So how does that translate to what you're seeing in Tyler, Texas now? And by the way, folks, I want to validate Tyler, Texas is beautiful. That whole Piney Woods, East Texas. I know that for folks listening, like when you think Texas, you think the cowboy boots and the oil and like you're thinking of like West Texas, or you might be thinking of like the glitz and glam of Houston, Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, Austin, like those those mega cities, but which Paul Haygood: Hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: They're not Megasid. They're on their way. They're there. No, it's like that whole triangle is becoming one conglomerate in that dry area, but ⁓ Paul Haygood: It is. Yes, good reminder. It is absolutely gorgeous here for people that have never been to Texas. They would not have a clue that, ⁓ you know, it's not just ⁓ dust devils and tumbleweeds. this part of Texas, especially, it's very lush, very green. We have a lot of, I feel like I'm selling Tyler at the moment, but we have a lot of ⁓ amazing forests, some great waterways, creeks, rivers, ⁓ lakes and... ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Paul Haygood: There's a lot of hiking, mountain biking, some paddling, great disc golf and Tyler, you would never know, but it's a real thing and it's up and coming as well. And it's an interesting time to be here because there's a new medical school with the UT health system that is just being finished this year. The first cohorts have already started and we have a downtown revitalization program that's bringing a lot of influx of ⁓ you know, new, new populace to Tyler, if you will. And, ⁓ it's getting a lot of attention and a lot of buzz. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's a, it's a unique time to be in Tyler is the point. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It is. ⁓ that area when you were talking about it being the westernmost point of the south, there was like, if for the transcript, the south is going to be a capital S. There was a lot of directions there. But I so my my parents are divorced and my dad is about an hour and a half. Paul Haygood: Yes. Dasa. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Southeast of Tyler in a town called Crockett, population I want to say like under 6,000. It might have been three when we were growing up, you know, lakes and tons of, I mean, it's like the, it's the piney woods. Like you'd get on your bike and you would ride for hours in the forest and then, you know, go to the lake, go fishing, all that mountain biking. Absolutely. And it's a great, great, awesome. I'm so thankful I had that part of my child. Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm Leigh/@followtheleighder: childhood, I also recognize like how deeply when you say it's the South, it is ⁓ like that. I remember my dad, we going to a country club brunch and the country club like the door holder, the foot, what are they called? The door stop ⁓ was in the shape, was in a shape of a Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: black butler boy, but in like menstrual and like just clearly like holding a tray. But I just remember and like that was, and looking at my brother and like that wasn't okay. like, but that was, it's the South and it was kind of like an area, a town almost like frozen in the 1960s. And, ⁓ and so when you talk about a lot of, ⁓ Paul Haygood: Mm. That's good. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you know, the growth and change there. A, like you said, Tyler's getting a lot of attention and then so much of that Houston growth too. I know that Crockett was getting from like the Woodlands and kind of getting, but ⁓ really, like we said, beautiful, but got some dark history to it. And I'm excited to get into it because tell me what you're seeing now ⁓ in your community and Tyler. Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Well, one of the things I'm seeing now that I'm not sure, I may end up doing a study on this later. ⁓ There's a lot of crosses that have been popping up. ⁓ It's been going on for years, yard crosses that is, ⁓ that say Jesus is Lord on them. ⁓ I had assumed Lee for the past like five or eight years that this was just something that was happening all over. And then more recently I found out, no, this is an East Texas thing. There's, there's a man, ⁓ maybe a group of them who have made, ⁓ thousands and thousands. I don't know how many of these crosses, ⁓ if it's possible to, to see through the, this, the screen here, here's a photo, ⁓ a stack of them outside of a local Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah. Paul Haygood: Mexican restaurant where the sign actually says crosses are free no more than three, please. So you are limited. ⁓ But we're starting we have seen these all across town and ⁓ I got to be careful because I could harp on this but this is not the most important thing today. It's just a momentary. It feels like it feels like the word sideshow exists because again to me this feels like a very, performative. thing altogether to display a cross and one's front yard and sometimes not just one cross, but ⁓ there's actually four crosses and this person's front yard. One of them is a little baby cross in the middle that you can barely see. It's like a family of crosses there. So ⁓ that house started off with just one and then it was two and now it's four and there have been five and ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, I see it. Paul Haygood: And we're also, last photo for now, we're also starting to see these same crosses show up in public places all across town. There's one right at a bus stop on a thoroughfare. So, ⁓ my concern is that we may see more and more of this sort of posturing and performative aspect of ⁓ sort of identity politics being performed through this as of now, optional, place enough across and your own yard. who the heck knows where all that's going to go? But I think it's just downright fascinating. we could talk on that for a moment if you like. But my project right now, within sociology here at UT Tyler, is ⁓ may I go ahead and dive into that? OK, very good. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Please. Yeah. Paul Haygood: I was interested since there's literally, and if you want to pull up that Canva, slideshow now feel free. ⁓ I was interested in for many years having recognized the, abundance of churches and Tyler, ⁓ to as of now, I believe there's like 292 churches and Tyler and that that's a lot. And that's fine. And there's questions in there in terms of like the lumpers versus the splitters. Like where are we headed? If there's 292 churches now, what's it going to be in another 20 years? You know, is that going to double at some point? So in any case, I was interested to ask senior pastors or associate pastors when they were the ones available, ⁓ a couple of questions, primarily, how does your church view inclusion and belonging? through the lens of membership. you know, more specifically, what are the steps required to be a member, to be included in your church? And then, and then the second question after that first one is how does your congregation understand belonging to the broader Christian community or the universal church, if you will, or even Christendom, we might say, you know, certainly beyond your own congregation or denomination. So I was able to interview 11 out of the 20 senior pastors that I invited for this first study. I was able to interview 11. I'm currently in the process of assessing that data. I've got, ⁓ you know, stack of, stack of transcripts to call through and assess and figure out what it is, what it is that I want to share. And we'll probably at this point, ⁓ avoid concluding anything that involves my own opining for now. And I want this to be a bit more of a data-driven study and kind of, ⁓ in a way, ⁓ connect some dots, connect some threads for people who might see this or read it, and just allow them to make ⁓ their own conclusions. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, I'm really excited about your project. Do you want, while I have it pulled up, do you... I see the check marks of all the congregations you did interview. Do you want me to continue showing off this? Okay. Yeah. Paul Haygood: Absolutely. Yeah. Feel free. If any of that feels relevant, feel free. And then just as a, contextually, when you're seeing these yellow orange ⁓ words and quotes there, these are all simply a large set of quotes from ⁓ pastors who will remain anonymous. But in some cases I can easily state ⁓ their denomination without revealing who they are. Whereas in other cases, if there's only one, ⁓ If there's only one Eastern Orthodox church in town, then I can't very well ⁓ mention that a specific quote comes from that Eastern Orthodox pastor because that would in no uncertain terms reveal their identity. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Well, so I connect this all to your point about performative Christianity with the signage, right? All of these identity-led. And you're talking about identity politics and membership and belonging. So how do those fuse? And something that I'm very, I'm growing concerned with is, ⁓ how corporate a lot of Christian membership feels. And I'm wondering if you have found any sort of, if you have come across that at all in your research, a ⁓ more corporate or structure, commercial even. Paul Haygood: And... Mm I have. ⁓ One of the pieces that interests me the most in that regard is thinking about ⁓ Abby Day's work. She's a sociologist out of ⁓ somewhere in England, I don't recall. But in any case, ⁓ Abby Day has this this theory that ⁓ that belonging and connection happened first before belief. She She posits that that belief is more times than not these days, a function of, or an outworking of that group consciousness, if you will, or that group belonging. And so this just intrigues me to no end to consider how many of us would, would, would view churches or congregations as people who may be coming together to worship or serve or spend time together. because they believe similar things. And while that may be true to a large extent, Abby Day is saying, well, the opposite is actually true. That they're coming together for connectivity and community and whatnot. And then therein and thereby their beliefs may coalesce and form. I haven't gotten into the fullness of that book just yet, but that... That does intrigue me and we do see a lot, a lot, lot of ⁓ performative Christianity here in a variety of ways. I'm not sure if I touched ⁓ directly on your corporate question. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, that's okay. Your happy day comment reminded me a few summers ago I was in Sweden and they have, they've been secular since I want to say 1954. And I was, but they still practice a sort of cultural Christianity. Like there's still that Protestant Lutheran that I noticed while they're like, they're still Christmas is what I'm trying to say. Or like they'll still say Merry Christmas or like if they, if it needs to come to talk about God, like they'll use like the Christian Paul Haygood: Hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: vernacular to at least try to explain the abstract. I mean not so much the dogma or doctrine but like you still see the influence there and ⁓ one of the things I stumbled upon in my when I was researching a bit more about the Swedish secularism was how they understand ⁓ belonging but in similar to what you just said belonging before believing like or belonging without like this sort of like you're here because we're all a part of it and Paul Haygood: Hmm. Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and we're gonna make it work. And just sort of whatever you believe is kind of your bag, but like come together in the public square to find some common ground. So. Paul Haygood: No need. That's awesome. I'd love to hear more or read more about that at some point. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, well, tell me more about some of the themes or patterns that you're kind of finding in your research. Paul Haygood: One of the themes that really interests me, and if you want to look ⁓ into one or two of those quotes, we could easily find one ⁓ trying to think which one it might be, or we can leave that be. Either way is fine. But one of the patterns that I think is fascinating to me is how many of these pastors seem to have a way of characterizing their own congregation ⁓ that may not be that accurate. from outside of it. For example, there's a very, what I would call conservative Church of Christ congregation here in Tyler, whose pastor said that some people don't come or won't come to our church because we're far too progressive. And I need to follow up with this pastor via email and if I ... If I choose to at this point, cause I'm kind of wrapping up the research and trying to in the next couple of weeks, complete the summary and findings. But in any case, at some point it would be nice to follow up and say, you know, what, what did you mean by that? There were several other versions of that where a pastor would ⁓ posture themselves or their ⁓ congregation in a way that made me wonder how connected to, ⁓ how connected to like a truly accurate view of the reality of the situation is the expression of the pastor compared to how the general populace might view that congregation. ⁓ But other than that, you know, what I'm really interested in most in this study, Lee, is looking at the scope of inclusion that each congregation... ⁓ has created and then maintains through three different lenses. So first and foremost, membership. What does it take to be a member? What are the steps? Is there a doctrinal statement or a statement of faith? ⁓ How long is it? ⁓ The second lens is communion. Who's allowed? Who's invited to participate in communion? And then the third lens is ⁓ engagement with other congregations and other denoms, right? How much, if any, engagement with other denominations and churches does your own church have or does it want to have? So these are the sort of the three lenses through which I'm looking at scopes of inclusion. And one main takeaway that I'm sensing is that... I'm not sure about this. I'm just, thinking about this right now, right? So, so I'll use the words, it seems, because that's just what this seems like. It seems to me that, and this may be relatively obvious, so my apologies if so, but I think there's a lot of fodder for, ⁓ for deeper considerations in this relatively obvious thing that I'm about to say. But it seems that the shorter the statement of faith, or doctrinal statement, the broader the scope of inclusion. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Ha. Paul Haygood: ⁓ I love that you laugh. I think I because I think it's very interesting and ⁓ please go ahead. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ the two slides I was just looking at, one was the Nicene Creed, and I'll kind of touch on that in a second, but also just laughing because I have both an Episcopalian or Anglican background and also Disciples of Christ, and Disciples of Christ is a creedless denomination. And I laugh because, yes, Disciples of Christ is very inclusive, but it is so inclusive that me and Ronald Paul Haygood: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Reagan claimed the same denomination and I'm like how Paul Haygood: Reagan was the disciples of Christ? Wow. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah, big deal in it. There's a school in Illinois, I want to say, that has like a Disciples of Christ record. Is it Everett? Emmett? Something. starts with like, ⁓ of course I can't think about it when it's being recorded. It'll come to me in like an hour, folks. Sorry. But yeah, I also there's John Stamos' Disciples of Christ. I took a polity class on Disciples of Christ last summer. That's how I kind of, I'm like, I can tell you that's real cool. But yeah, it's a definitely, there's something to it. Like on one hand, yes, absolutely inclusive, but then what does it mean? Like... Paul Haygood: Hmm Leigh/@followtheleighder: I speak out against Ronald Reagan all the time. ⁓ What it means to be a Christian is a great question. What does it mean to belong and be a member? How come some Christians... I mean, it's even like when they say... And JD Vance was like, we are a Christian nation. And I was like, yeah, but which kind of Christian? Like, we going like, Methodist? Paul Haygood: How many millions of people heard that and interpreted it in a million different ways? Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah, like and and who gets to have the monopoly on on Christianity and ⁓ but Paul Haygood: Well, that's actually one of the fascinating pieces that drives my whole curiosity and much of the work that I'm doing and then also hope to do as I'm considering graduate studies after ⁓ this December. ⁓ the whole notion of ⁓ differing views of everything, and I'm seeing this in the study as well. There's an old joke. between the bad, one pastor mentioned there's an old joke between Baptist and Church of Christ, both pointing their finger at each other saying you're not gonna be in heaven. And that for the most part, it's a historical joke that is just kind of funny, ha ha, that people don't still believe, but he said, but actually some still do. And I think we all know that that is ⁓ relatively common. for any number of denominations or individuals across the spectrum to hold a view that says, body is the one that's orthodox or that's right or that has it figured out. And everyone else, I'm sorry, but you're going to hell. And that's just tragic to me. So I'm glad Kirk Cameron came out of the closet as someone who does not believe in eternal conscious torment. ⁓ At least that's what I think he has said, you know, like Rob Bell and many others, and maybe others will follow suit and have a more relaxed and kind view of this God that is said to be all loving and all powerful. I guess we'll see as as time unfolds, but as far as this study goes, it's one of the things that definitely drives my curiosity. This whole ⁓ array, this cornucopia of beliefs and positions of belief that posture themselves again and again and contrast to others, defining our own views or defining one's own views often merely by contrast to to the other church that we don't agree with. And the last thing I'll say for this brief moment here is just that this study that I'm doing is in no way meant to be a hit piece. I am aiming to honor the churches that exist in Tyler in a way that helps people through a sociological lens understand more about who they are. what they are, how they function in terms of inclusion on those three pieces, and ⁓ perhaps allow some of the general public to have a more informed view of that very array of differences or of, ⁓ dare I say, ⁓ diversity. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That was such a well worded response. And then that's exactly what it is. And one of the quotes on here, it says, I want to be one church, I want to be ecumenical and even in our faith, but yet try and find grounds on which we can all work together as Christians is kind of tricky business. So this sounds like and then I did find the other one that was that said that ⁓ Paul Haygood: Well, thank you. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you know, they wouldn't fellowship with us because we're way too progressive for them. ⁓ So these two contrasts of Paul Haygood: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: of, like you said, identity politics and also I think about ⁓ how this is all so kind of new. I don't want to say new, but sort of, but like after, you know, the Holy Roman or Holy Catholic Empire, where the state mandated the religion, this idea of like the free market of believers and competing for believers and then having this whole idea of marketing to it. ⁓ I think it it all kind of leads into that same conversation of what you're saying, this performative Christianity, ⁓ A, ⁓ but also putting membership probably before the belonging. So, but it's... ⁓ Paul Haygood: ⁓ Thank you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Just just this growing and massing in numbers and it almost kind of like what I said earlier Just like that corporate or even like capitalist Christianity like grow grow grow ⁓ And ⁓ I feel like I'm trailing off now, so sorry, but that's kind of what made me think of it Paul Haygood: No worries. Yeah. And there's so many things that are connected to this. There's like, it can get real easy to sort of tangentiate, if you will, and then realize I've gotten off topic. I don't mean in the conversation, but as much, you know, more so like in the research, because I'm learning a lot, a lot, a lot about these pastors and about these churches that's just not related to the scope of this. first study at least, maybe there will be a second one, who knows. But you know, for example, identity politics, although I speak about it or mention it with you today, it's not really something I'm looking at in this ⁓ research. ⁓ May I ask you a question about Christian nationalism as far as this study goes? So if Lee, if there's a second study or a relook, if you will, at some of this data, whether it's new data or same data, either way. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ for sure. Yeah. Paul Haygood: If I was going to ask, well, I'd love to, first off, I'd love to hear if you have any suggestions on questions, you know, now or later about ⁓ questions of inclusion as, as, as I've already expressed the current scope of the study. So I'm keen on that if you have anything, but, but regarding Christian nationalism, if I was going to ask, these pastors, let's say I could interview with the help of others, 75 churches this fall. ⁓ How might I articulate a question to them along the lines of what is your church's view and response to, view of and response to Christian nationalism? in a way that is not in any way cornering them or ⁓ otherwise trying to be a gotcha moment. ⁓ Any ideas on how that could be articulated? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, you could start with just instead of asking, you know, Christian nationalism outright, you could ask how they feel about a lot of the Christian rhetoric that ⁓ White House or Pentagon officials use, like. ⁓ Paul Haygood: Yeah, it's good. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that might actually get you more to the heart of what you're asking anyway. ⁓ Of like, how do you feel about, you know, so much Christian rhetoric being employed for very violent geopolitical means ⁓ and economic and or whatever. But ⁓ so kind of. Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. That's right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, almost. I know that sounds like it's like, go even deeper, get more specific. But it's kind of like, yeah, just because the answers are a bit all over the place. have people that, I mean, a month ago, none of us wanted a war. And now there is a substantial number of Americans who are all the way in. Like so, so. Paul Haygood: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Lots of rhetoric, ⁓ lots of things happen in response, so it's probably always just best to ask what they feel about the leadership in the Christian language. The other thing... ⁓ Paul Haygood: Hmm. Mm-hmm. I like it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: in terms of like belonging and scope. You touched on that. There is a book somewhere by Pamela Cooper White who talks about the psychology of Christian nationalism and she has a whole chapter on the recruitment aspect. I actually don't see an issue, like the recruitment process itself that she was talking about, like that sort of free market of believers that I mentioned, the recruitment's not necessarily a problem. In fact, I think a lot of progressive mainline churches Paul Haygood: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: could adopt some of their models and some of their process. again, it's the theology of once you get in to the community. But that's worth looking into, or a resource for your study, the Psychology of Christian Nationalism. Another one is, Baptizing America by Brian Kaler. And it talks about how the Protestant church played a role in. Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: wouldn't meant to be a Christian and kind of like the the 60s and just sort of the Yale Harvard intellectual mainline Protestant church. What was their role in all of this? Because it's easy to be like the evangelicals just came out of nowhere and it's like no actually this is all a process ⁓ and we're a bit more entangled with one another than I think we'd like to admit. ⁓ Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Did I answer your question though? ⁓ Paul Haygood: I think so. No, I know so. Definitely. Thank you for that. That's ⁓ super helpful. And it's a great time to be talking about Christian nationalism, isn't it? Just in general, but also since the ⁓ Summit for Religious Freedom is coming up in two weeks, two or three weeks in D.C., ⁓ I wish I could be there in person, but I will most certainly be participating remotely. That's what the Americans United ⁓ is putting on. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and tell me, the Texas Board of Education, I think it's Ken Paxton, ⁓ who else? There's a few. David Barnes is another one. ⁓ I'd be really interested in talking with you again about some of these Texas leaders that are really leaning into what, into Christian rhetoric. ⁓ Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Dallas, Fort Worth, North Texas is a hotbed. A lot of big mega churches there. So there's so much more for us to talk about. And I do hope you'll come back and that you enjoyed today's talk. It went by so quickly. Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Yes, I did. It was very quick. And Lee, before we part, I have to say happy, happy birthday to you. I'm a few days late. ⁓ I hope you had a great one and seeing this reel just a day or two ago with the fourth grade class writing out all of their cards to you, that was just so sweet and delightful. Those look like magnificent cards. So I hope it's been a good week for you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It has, that's so kind. Thank you for that. Yeah, yeah, it was and it's a good reminder, you know, when thinking about history, politics, community, all of the heavy stuff that like just reminding kids to go outside and play and to enjoy our public lands. Paul Haygood: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: like that it's just simple that's like that's the agenda I have for that book I'm like yeah go see your national parks because they're cool and here's what you can do and my dog who's behind me narrates it instead of have these kids respond I just be like yeah it is cool to want to see the outdoors I'm like yeah you got it you get it from Tyler like so Paul Haygood: Yes, very much so. The simplicity and the sacred simplicity that's available to us through all things nature. Yes, beautiful. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes, it is. It's just, it's just simple. ⁓ well, before we wrap up, where your research, you know, I know you said you're in the middle of it. When do you think you'll be able to, we'll be able to read it or learn more about it? Paul Haygood: Hopefully this summer. Yeah, maybe as maybe as early as May, just kind of. It's going to be May or June, ⁓ ideally, yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay, cool, awesome. Yeah, well fantastic. Please come back and share what you found and we'll keep going. I really appreciate your time today. Is there anything else before we wrap up? You want to say to the audience? Paul Haygood: ⁓ gosh, it feels like there's it feels like there's a dozen questions or things that I wanted to ask you or touch on. So I'll just ask one real quick. ⁓ Since you're working on Christian nationalism through the ⁓ US Armed Forces chaplaincy, am I correct? I just want to ask one sort of specific question. Are there many interfaith chaplains in the US Armed Forces or are there some? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Yes, so there were a ton. That's what I meant by that baptizing America that talks about the Protestant mainline. So for World War II through probably like 90s, it was very much ecumenical. In fact, you could argue that, and I do argue that, ⁓ Paul Haygood: Mmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: The US military tends to precede American society in terms of diversity because it needs it, because it just needs bodies. ⁓ And so early ⁓ on, it was recognizing Catholic and Jewish chaplains before a lot of mainstream society was. ⁓ So it was kind of warming up to that idea. ⁓ You do see since the 90s, this marked Paul Haygood: Mm. Mm. Mm, how cool. Leigh/@followtheleighder: school and the focus on the family. You see that kind of coming off the Reagan years and then 9-11 bolstered it and now there's quite a number of evangelical, I mean it is overwhelmingly and overrepresented by predominantly Southern Baptist or like denominations, know, because so many of them also just fall under non-denominational now. you know, so Southern Baptist is the main one and now there's a ton of non-denominational and what that has looked like is a lot more, ⁓ and that was never. Paul Haygood: Wow. You too. Leigh/@followtheleighder: like even George Washington, was never he was not interested in a chaplain corps because he was worried about salvation and souls. He wanted, it was a morality thing. Like he wanted the hope, he wanted morals, he wanted a know a clergy moral guidance in the room to stop the drinking and the prostitution and the gambling and Paul Haygood: Mm. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: keep it somewhat civil, you know, there was a morality aspect to it. But, and he even like he did Protestants in the first round, and then like three months later brought in a Unitarian Universalist to like say like, this is not a Protestant Chaplain Corps, this, you know, this specific, this is, we're just here to make sure that our men are okay. And so they're really, like I said, very ecumenical, historically. not necessarily friendly with Muslim countries as of late, but again, that's a post-1948 kind of state of Israel relationship, this Judeo-Christian ally, geopolitical allegiance, because. Paul Haygood: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Awesome. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So I don't know if that was too much of the ⁓ question or answered you too much, but yeah, it is really interesting how, and in fact, the Chaplain Corps drew a lot of people who liked interfaith because it was a multi-faith workforce. Like it is the one place that you knew that you had to be cool with everybody and like navigate this, and you actually found some sort of, like you liked, there was an aspect to that that drew you. Paul Haygood: Hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And we've seen in the last decade or two of people going into the Chaplain Corps being upset about that aspect. I think like, well, I don't want to have to minister to people who don't agree with me or don't like, I don't like their lifestyle or think it's... ⁓ Paul Haygood: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And so that's a different, interesting turn because now we have chaplains worrying about themselves and how they feel and what they're comfortable and their rights. it's very like, you're the giver. You're the caregiver, the one with religious authority and a healing profession. It's just, it's changed a lot. Paul Haygood: Yes. Well, that's a perfect answer. Thank you for allowing me a moment to ask a question as well. And then is it safe to say I can read more about some of these things in your thesis when that comes out? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, yeah. And I mean, I have some time if you have another question. I don't mean to like cut you off, ⁓ we ⁓ I'll definitely be releasing and I'm starting to get more active on Substack and trying to like promote my research in my book and like release it without violating any certain, you know, future copyright issues or something. But ⁓ my goodness is there. just so much to it's like everyone had to learn American history right now real quick and get all caught up is what it kind of feels like. Paul Haygood: Very much so. Well, I could definitely ask more questions. ⁓ I know we don't have endless time, so ⁓ maybe I'll just pick one that jumps out at me here. ⁓ But before I ask it, can we expect your thesis completion? Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's a great the thesis is already done. I'm just haven't released it so that it doesn't violate like copyright with my book the book. I am moving. I am like midway through and putting out book proposals now to agents and starting to be like, so can we get this signed so I can release the thesis or release some version of it? But I want to Paul Haygood: I see. Gotcha. Mmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's what sucks, copyright and all those things. And then also the other thing that I was bummed about, because I was like, ⁓ maybe I will share it with some folks. was like, if something, if it gets into AI somehow, and like that distorts copyright. And I was like, okay, we'll find then. Then I'll just keep it, I'll just keep talking about it via podcast and sub stack. Paul Haygood: Like if anyone were to happen to upload it into AI, then that would destroy the agreement or Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's what some, just because copyright and AI right now is just, there's no, it's the wild west. And so there it gets better to just do it by piecemeal or do it by podcast. ⁓ Paul Haygood: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I don't know. mean, and because then my question is like, well, then how deep does this go? mean, there's like Google Docs. does that, like how, who has, who owns what anymore as a human being, like that has to use all these things. Like, so yeah, but anyway, please ask your question. I feel like I'm just chatting. Paul Haygood: Mmm. Okay, ⁓ well, thank you for that. ⁓ gosh, I've got so many and they're all competing to be asked. Let's let's see. ⁓ Well, here's one I think I'll go with. I'm a little surprised there's not been a global solidarity movement that has really taken roots and coalesced more and more humans globally. I think we're seeing a lot of more regional solidarity movements here and there. Certainly No Kings should be mentioned. ⁓ Me too, kind of in a way may have set the stage for some of what we're seeing with No Kings. ⁓ But it seems like we're poised, ⁓ not maybe this year or in the next several years, who knows? It seems like we're poised for a the very real and definite need for a global solidarity movement to actualize itself. And I just wonder if you have any sort of hunches or ideas on what sort of ⁓ tone or type of larger solidarity movements could be the thing that unites humans worldwide. seems like we're just all very, very fragmented right now and there's absolute need for coming together. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, a global solidarity movement sounds beautiful when it is by, like if we were to do that now and by choice, it could be beautiful, it could be well organized and there could be some good things that come from it. My fear is that people don't typically get to that level of solidarity until things are really bad economically. Yeah. Paul Haygood: Hmm. So maybe that's what's happening right now. It's just ⁓ the stage is being set, if you will, so that we can respond to it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I'm, and I'm, I, I, because, and like you said, everyone's very fragmented. And I've seen that online of ⁓ leftists, like sort of rooting for this, for this AI recession, depression, whatever is going to come from it. Like they want, it's an accelerationist of like, Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: how bad this capitalist late stage stuff is, and AI, authoritarian, the crypto, all the corruption that we're seeing, there's this sense of cheering it on so that things can be bad enough so that people can have a revolution. ⁓ that is really scary ⁓ to think, you know, like those things should not be taken lightly about how many people die and how bad things get. Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I'm not here to go down the political science of what that looks like, but that is a concern of like solidarity typically comes from desperation. ⁓ But that also, it leads to a lot of ideas. And I think it does kind of... Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I think that there is a really interesting relationship between secularism and it creating, or not even creating, but them both being in this dynamic of a religious society and a secular society and they keep causing the other. Like, you know, enough religion will eventually lead to something like the American Revolution, where they're like, no, no more kings, no more. Paul Haygood: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: church and state and now you go secular for 250 years and they decide that America's so great we need to redo the Constitution, which it doesn't make sense to me, but like we need to redo the Constitution in order to have more Christian laws and influence is what I'm saying. it's, ⁓ what else could I say about solidarity? But that's also like Paul Haygood: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I mean, you and I are doing that. We are making those connections and sharing research and doing that before we get to that point and saying, hey, you're seeing these patterns. Those things about crosses. Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. For sure. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And these texts don't surprise me at all. But it is interesting to hear you say, ⁓ I thought this was happening everywhere. And it's actually just a regional thing because I don't see it. we'll have our own. Maybe it won't be a wooden cross that says Jesus is Lord. But like for a long time, it was the MAGA flag or the Trump flag or whatever I saw. But I think that's broken a lot of hearts ⁓ for his voters. And I've seen Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and then take down the flag and just put up the cross. I don't know. I feel like, it's too big of a question. So thank you. Paul Haygood: It's a big question. Yeah. it was also ⁓ not just big, but it was a field, very a field of what we were talking about. So thanks for ⁓ engaging on that. I do appreciate it. will say, Lee, if you get to a point where you might need a proofreader, I am a darn good proofreader. If you ever want to try someone out, send me a chapter or a page. I've got a knack for some of that. So I'm excited for you and what's coming with your book. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I might take you up on it because I mean that's the half of it of just like does this even read? Does this sound okay? ⁓ But so yeah thank you and ⁓ you have so much experience and theologically, philosophically. and just, you know, worldly. So thank you for sharing that with the audience today. Thank you for asking some questions. You're more than welcome to send those questions over too. And I can email them back to you or, whatever that looks like if you'd like that for your research. ⁓ But. Paul Haygood: Which questions? ⁓ Okay, thank you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Just if you had any other questions, please send them my way and I'd be happy to answer any and we'll go from there. Because I didn't even think about like, I liked how you worded it, the global solidarity and like, yeah, we do need it and we are working to, we can all feel it. Like I can feel it and just. Paul Haygood: That'd be great. Yeah. Yes. And if I may just name the one thing that I think is needed is that it's a cross faith secular bridge. Like we need to get rid of that chasm and even talking about it and thinking about it. It's time. I think we need an interfaith movement that greatly and grandly expands. the definition of faith to include previous notions previously thought of as non-faith, or groups rather, if that made any sense. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I think that's, yes, that's reminding me of also kind of gets in some process theology. If you have looked into process theology or quantum theology and there's some, I'll think of some resources later, but yeah, this. Paul Haygood: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ability to having to find some way ⁓ for faith in secular society because again, ⁓ you have a very Christian conservative idea of what society should look like and then for if you go on the opposite side of the spectrum on the far left, they'll start to hate religion like there's this like very much this animosity towards it and I don't like that either and it's what deters a lot of people from secularism is like why are you so condescending to me about the faith? Paul Haygood: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And also, so we'll have to… Paul Haygood: Mm-hmm. So true. Leigh/@followtheleighder: to see what that looks like, but the good news is, I don't know if this is good, but when we look at historical patterns, this is not the first time we've had to answer some of these questions for ourselves. There are waves of this. They typically come on the heels of a new technology. We saw this in Industrial Revolution, Printing Press, We can also tie it to how technology and the markets influence these waves of Paul Haygood: Yes. Okay, here it is, right now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: identity too because of people having to adjust to change and ⁓ there's been a change and who are we and I don't just a sort of tribalism that happens but ⁓ the world will keep spinning it might get scary for a minute there a little rocky but we've as a society we've just keep talking and getting through it somehow Paul Haygood: You're fair. Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's the hope of Christ. Like that's it. That's all I have. I don't know how, but we will because we already have before. Paul Haygood: That's right. Thank you so much for your generosity of spirit and conversation and sharing. Just your time. I very much appreciate it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, no, back at you. This was awesome. I do need to wrap up this podcast and then we, you and I can talk, but well, Paul, you have been a fantastic guest. Again, this is from Tyler, Texas, East Texas, Piney Woods, a little bit different perspective than what we've had in the last couple of weeks. I know we tend to jump around the country talking to folks about this and. Thank you for your research and doing what you can, your boots on the ground, your community, being where your hands are. That is the work. ⁓ That's doing the work and doing the justice. So folks, let me know what you thought of this conversation. Please drop it in the comments. ⁓ You know, this has been really rich and if you have any suggestions or people or anything that I feel could benefit other listeners or readers, make sure to drop that. in the comments too, any resources. ⁓ But this has been another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host Leigh Larson and until next time, see ya! ⁓