Latest / Exit Algorithms / NASA Leadership Lessons to Build a Business That Runs Without You | Brady Pyle (#90)
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome Exit Algorithms, the podcast where we decode what it really takes to unlock growth, streamline operations, and prepare your business for a high-value exit. I'm your host, Pete Vera, and today I'm joined by Brady Pyle. He spent nearly 30 years at NASA rising to become the agency's HR director and earning the NASA Outstanding Leadership Medal twice. He's now the chief HR and Inclusion Officer at Space Center Houston. He's also a keynote speaker, an author, coach, and consultant, where he translates leadership principles into a practical playbook any organization can use. Brady, excited to have you here today. Welcome to the podcast. speaker-1: Looking forward to the conversation, Pete. speaker-0: Do you mind sharing a bit about your your career journey and yeah, maybe some highs and lows and how you ended up where you are today? speaker-1: Yeah, it'd be great. It's it's been a fun ride for sure. I went to graduate school at Texas AM studying HR. And then I did a study of federal HR offices in Texas and ended up landing an opportunity at the NASA Johnson Space Center. It was one of the few at the time that had kind of an internal management consulting role. that was really exciting to me. And also it was one of the few where You can meet with your customers face to face. the Johnson Space Center had a campus-like environment. most other HR organizations at the time were central organizations serving multi-state regions. And so it was a very unique opportunity. served as a internal management consultant at the Johnson Space Center about 10 years and then moved into leadership. I moved into a frontline leadership role of the function that I had worked for 10 years. And then I moved over to training and development. I got some experience with that. then I spent a year in Washington, DC, getting the perspective of the NASA headquarters and then also the World Bank. I worked outside of NASA for a period of time. that was a fun adventure. And then I came back to the Johnson Space Center. We worked on workforce planning. This was the time the space shuttle was close to retirement and we were looking at How are our workforce skills going to transition in a post-shuttle environment? and then I moved into the deputy HR director role, which is kind of a number two to the executive position at the Johnson Space Center. did that for about three years and it was unclear where my career was headed. We were talking a lot about culture and engagement at the time and the role of the frontline leader. So I went and spent nine months as a frontline leader in engineering to kind of walk in the shoes, of a leader and get their perspective. then I came back, served again as deputy HR director for about another year before moving into the executive role as HR director at the Johnson Space Center. Did that for three years until 2018. NASA had been in existence for 60 years and NASA had been very decentralized with all the support functions. So the 10 NASA centers around the country all kind of operated independently for HR, finance, procurement, and those functions. Two thousand eighteen, the agency said, hey, we need to manage functionally and save money. So my role became the director of HR services where I was supervisor of the field executives and we were trying to save about twenty-five percent of our budget and resources and look to standardize things across the agency. did that role for For five years, ultimately became the deputy chief human capital officer and then took early retirement from NASA in February of 23 after five years of that. and stepped over as the Cheerio here at Space Center Houston, the chief HR and Inclusion Officer. and Space Center Houston, we're a educational nonprofit. We don't get any funds from the federal government, even though we're the official visitor center for the Johnson Space Center. So if you're gonna visit NASA in Houston, You come to us, we take trams over to where you can see mission control and the astronaut training facilities. We have a lot of only here experiences. we have guests from all over the world that come visit and want to learn more about the past, present and future of human space flight. So it's a fun place to be for sure. speaker-0: Yeah. that that's awesome. yeah, and you know, you had you were in leadership at the highest level. I I read or I read a lot of your book and then like I said, I of course did an AI summary of what I didn't finish. but yeah, I'd love to talk a little bit more about building culture, the NASA way, your book. And yeah, maybe some takeaways for some small business owners listening. speaker-1: Yeah, so one of the things I did while I was at NASA is I would go speak to different global HR conferences. I was able to get out to different international venues from Dubai to South Africa to Europe. And one of the things I noticed is a lot of the participants would say, Hey, there there are very practical suggestions that you have that our organization can use. You know, the the NASA brand tends to catch people's eye and then But sometimes it's intimidating. Hey, we're we're not a NASA or or we may not be able to do that. so as I learned that I thought, hey, I need to need to kind of put these thoughts down and and get them more broadly disseminated. So that was the purpose behind the book was to get these these frameworks and these strategies out there. and we build a framework for culture around four steps. navigate the culture, really understand. Your organization's values, where they came from, how they were shaped, and what were critical moments in your history. I mean, NASA's had some big ones. We had the Space Shuttle Challenger accident in 86, we had the Space Shuttle Columbia in 2003, building the International Space Station, all of those significant events shaped culture at the Johnson Space Center. then you move to assess and adapt, and this is where intentional measurement of the culture really matters. and NASA wasn't always the best place to work in government. We went for several years where we were between third and fifth because we didn't really pay attention to the engagement survey or to what what employees were telling us. So this is where this step is critical. The assess, you know, to measure your culture. Adapt is picking critical few improvements, a couple each year, things that you're going to focus on To really move the organization forward and the culture forward. And what we like to do at NASA, which has translated well in this different environment at Space Center Houston, is pull a group of volunteers together to tackle those challenges, to provide ideas and suggestions. The third step is strengthening leadership and systems, be intentional about your leadership development. Leaders drive two-thirds of the results on engagement scores. So making sure that you've got the right leadership capacity to scale your organization and to to make sure that you're building the right culture. And then that fourth step is is activate a culture of inclusion and innovation. One of the things that worked for us at the Johnson Space Center was that culture strategy where pulling everyone together, making sure everyone's voices are heard. and you come up with more creative, innovative solutions, bringing in people from different functions, different perspectives, benchmarking from other organizations outside your own to learn what can work. And and that's really for us what inclusion was. It was about pulling the whole team together, being open to different ideas and and driving those more creative solutions. So that's the the general framework being and that's that's one there's a lot of practical suggestions on each of those steps that organizations can take. speaker-0: Yeah, awesome. And yeah, like you said, you know, you came from you know leading thousands of people to distill those some of those takeaways into the things that you know small business owners can apply to their business as well. I know you talked a bit about it in the book about the Columbia incident. And so maybe do you mind sharing some of the lessons you you took away from that? I thought that was really powerful. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, the that was a pivotal moment in my career. And in fact I it it happened at a point where I had been there for about eight years. it was unclear what the future of NASA was going to be. In the mid nineties, the the space station survived a vote in Congress by one vote to keep it kind of going as a program. And it was very unclear what what the future of space was going to be. And so when the the Columbia tragedy happened in two thousand three, you know, we had to really step back. And one of the things that that really came out of that, and Dr. Edgar Schein talks about it in his book, Umble Inquiry, he said there were there was data and information in the organization that did not rise to the decision makers. and part of it is the culture didn't encourage questions. leaders weren't asking the right questions to get the data. And he said that was not only true of the Columbia accident, it was true of the BP oil spill in the Gulf. It was true of the Challenger accident as well. And so this is where we really began to focus some of our leadership development around encouraging our leaders to ask questions, don't give answers. At NASA, leaders were often promoted based on their technical expertise. You know, they had their whole career they have been recognized and rewarded for having the technical answers. But when they get into leadership roles, if they really want to grow the capacity of their team, they've got to ask questions and and bring forward ideas. If they have all the answers, data doesn't come forward to them that needs to. And and in this this particular case with the Columbia accident, it was it was critical and it was unfortunately it cost them lives and and the vehicle itself. speaker-0: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Real really sad. yeah. And I think, you know, that that culture piece is really important. It do you think it's it comes down to matter of transparency or just like a culture of accepting mistakes? what have you seen work in it practically from that? speaker-1: Yeah, so one of one of the things that was interesting at NASA is if if you saw the movie Apollo thirteen, you've you've heard the phrase or you may have heard it differently, failure is not an option. And that was discussing how do we bring the crew home when they had a you know, an incident aboard the spacecraft that was headed to the moon. And the team acted heroically to to bring that crew home safely. It was really an amazing mission. Unfortunately that mindset had permeated NASA in areas where it didn't need to. So there may be parts of your business and just like at NASA where human life could be at stake with certain decisions, and you've got to manage risk very differently in those environments and you've got to make sure that people are safe and that you're you're protecting human life. But but NASA, like a lot of organizations A lot of NASA is not in a life or death kind of environment. I mean, we've got some RD projects and programs. We've got mission support functions, you know, like us and HR and finance and procurement. And we have become too risk averse. that failure is not an option at kind of permeated. So one of the things we did is really we initiated a a recognition and reward program called Lean Forward Fail Smart. We highlighted projects and programs that were taking risks. we had a a moonlander that that was in development where they were trying some new techniques and and new ideas, and it actually caught on fire in a field at the Johnson Space Center. It was very visible failure, if you will. but there were a lot of lessons drawn from that. And people were watching because the typical NASA approach would be. that project manager, that project team would have kind of been sidelined. They would have been moved to you know, projects that were less important, less visible. but actually the opposite happened. They took that project manager, he went on a roadshow, shared lessons learned, and then he moved into a more important role going forward. And so that began to change our culture around hey, when lives aren't at stake, It's it's okay to take risks. It's okay to have a failure and learn from it. And so that that was really pivotal for us to to start advancing. And then we've seen with commercial space, you know, we've seen some of the same things. They've tried some new ideas, tried some new approaches, they've had accidents on the launch pad that didn't involve people. but They've learned from those and and made advancements and we're so much farther along today because of that and that shift in culture than we would have been if if we had stayed very risk averse. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I love what you said too. You know, some of those principles apply to commercial enterprises as well. A lot of leaders talk about that, you know, fa Facebook, Amazon, SpaceX, like the they try to actually try to fail almost, you know, you go to the point of failure 'cause then 'cause then you can learn learn from those mistakes, right? speaker-1: Yeah, you're pushing the envelope. Yeah. speaker-0: Well, awesome. Yeah, let's let's shift gears a little bit. I'd love to talk about culture in the context of a a small business owner looking to sell his business. I'd love to hear your thoughts. You know, how how would you recommend a small business owner prepare their teams for for an acquisition? speaker-1: Yeah. And so the the best I can do from from my own experience is really look at why I was hired at Space Center Houston. So I came here three years ago. We were an organization of about a hundred and fifty full time staff and we were growing at ten percent per year. And the CEO brought me in, added this position at the executive level because he really wanted to be intentional about culture and he wanted to be intentional about building leaders as well. and investing in people. so I think my advice would be to be intentional about building culture and and have a strong culture to enhance the value of the business. and you build that through you know one listen listening to people what are their issues and recommendations on how to how to make things better putting teams of people together to go make those improvements. Again, I I like the idea of you focus on a couple of things at a time. we usually do six to twelve month intervals, depending on what how complicated the change is that we're we're looking to implement. and then really focus on strengthening leaders and and building leaders and leadership capacity that can not only help the organization but but Help it go forward. I know when I've left different positions and different roles at NASA, the the teams behind me that we have built have taken the organization to the next level. And and when you're looking at scaling and selling a company, that's part of what you're you're wanting to sell is hey, it's gonna continue to grow and get better. And you gotta demonstrate, hey, we've got the right culture, we've got the right leadership capacity to continue to move forward. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's it's kinda boils down to preparing them for a a big transition or or change. yeah, and you know, maybe after the change, how do you how do you keep a team intact and and motivated through through a transition? speaker-1: Yeah, that that's where I really think the a leader's first ninety days. When a leader is new to an organization or a team, their first ninety days is about really listening and understanding. And this is again that first step when we talk about building culture, it's navigating the culture. So it's it's understanding, you know, what shaped the team, what values the team has. if if I as a leader am trying to push you know, maybe a different direction or a different set of values. understanding how things are today helps me determine the best way to move forward and and to to really push on that. I know as a leader my my personal values are really shaped by my grandfather and father. It's it's excellence to do your best, integrity to do what you say, and improvement to get better over time. So any team that I lead I really push those values as well, in addition to organizational values that we might have and in the culture. So, you know, leaders personal values also shape the culture. And you know, I think I think when you're new to an organization or someone's taking over a a a new team or a new organization, listening to that team, understanding, you know, what are the pivotal moments that really shaped this team? And understanding, hey, they're gonna be nervous with a new leader. We're space center Houston, we're actually in a recruitment phase for a new CEO. And so we're gonna be facing that as an organization of you know, how do we how do we onboard a new CEO and how do we work through that change? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. yeah, and I I'm curious your thoughts on eliminating, you know, key man risk and owner dependence. That's one of the things we talk about a lot on this show. for well, for multiple reasons. One, it's just a a better way to have your business be ran, you know, you don't you don't wanna be the single point of failure, unable to take vacation or be away from your phone for an hour without you know, being an having an anxiety attack. But it the other part is it increases the value you'll be able to get when you when you do sell your business. what do you recommend for a person or or a business owner trying to trying to eliminate themselves as the bottleneck? speaker-1: Yeah, so my my my knot hole of the world has has largely been shaped by NASA. And NASA is very, very much a teamwork oriented culture. So even at the executive levels, you usually have a team of people that are that are contributing to decisions. You have an ultimate decision maker, of course, but the input of that team and that's that's that inclusion and innovation culture that's that really permeates NASA. so building building a leadership team I think is is huge. I know we talk a lot about even at the executive level at NASA, we would look at kind of that next layer of leaders and have succession development conversations. We didn't we didn't like succession planning where you're picking out high potential people. We liked how are we developing that next layer to step forward? And so what are the feedback they need, the what are the choices they need to make. Cause at NASA you had kind of a dual career path. You could, you could stay kind of a technical expert, be a chief engineer, chief scientist, you know, or more the executive and people leadership role. So there was a lot of assessment done individually and then also kind of by the executive team to really determine those paths. But you know, I would say as as an owner, you know, how are you How are you building out that team to where, yeah, when you depart the organization or when you need to go on vacation, things are still running smoothly. So you're building a system as opposed to, yeah, that single person dependency like you mentioned, Pete. speaker-0: you talk about, you know, growing leaders, not just managing people. What does that look like practically in a in an organization? speaker-1: Yeah, so we we actually at NASA went through a shift. early in my career, leaders were evaluated mostly on the technical results they achieved. and we went through an intentional shift that actually that's one of the things that propelled us to be a best place to work, is leaders began to be evaluated by both the results they achieved, but a balance of how they achieved them. How are they leading people, how are they leading change? and then we began to provide a little bit more resourcing and support around that. I really resonate with the leadership development model that Center for Creative Leadership puts out there that that's the seventy twenty ten model. Seventy percent of leadership development is based on on the job experience. Twenty percent is based on mentoring and coaching. So finding the right mentors. I usually talk to leaders about you should have a Mount Rushmore of mentors. You should be able to point to people who've influenced your your career. and if you if you can't quickly do that, go find some mentors. you know, have coaches as well. And then 10% is leadership content. So that's your training courses, your conferences, and those sorts of things. That model was really helpful to talk to NASA leaders about because generally leaders when they think about developing other leaders, they jump to, hey, what training class should I send them to? What you know, executive education or different things. And really that shapes about ten percent of your of your leadership. It's really based on the on job on job experiences. Are are you giving them stretch assignments or are they getting different perspectives of the organization? you know, I I go back to my own career where I moved different functions, I went to headquarters, I I saw engineering. Having those different perspectives really grew me as a leader. And then the progressive responsibility, not skipping steps in leadership. So, you know, frontline leader, then you're a a leader of leaders before you become an executive. those kind of steps help as well. And so that seventy, twenty, ten model was was big for us and and certainly has been big to bring to Space Center Houston as well. speaker-0: You know, you learn a lot better and faster. Most people do actually doing the thing rather than you know, death by PowerPoint. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, doing it and then and then hearing from others who've done it. You know, then then you kind of supplement that with your executive education or or training courses, but don't jump to that as your first solution. Think about hey, who who would be a good mentor for this leader or who, you know, who might help them kind of learn or what other kind of project would give them a different perspective and really grow their leadership skills. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. Do you do you see any common leadership development mistakes that y people make either business in business or in organizations? speaker-1: It's when when we try to force fit that technical leader into a people leadership role. you know, we we wanna reward and and value technical expertise. and and from a company's perspective, it's growing value for the company. But then when we ask people who aren't inclined or who don't have the proficiency to lead people. put them in people leadership roles that that does more damage to the culture, the team, the organization, and ultimately the individual, because they they get frustrated, you know, with those dynamics. And so that's a common challenge, I would say, in technical organizations. and that's really why we tried to push a dual career ladder. Hey, you can you can continue to grow as a technical leader. we don't have to force fit people into people leadership roles and but I think that's a that's a challenge and a mistake at the same time. speaker-0: another theme of this show is is AI, how it's affecting business and organizations. I'm curious, have has it really impacted you know, the HR world that much? And has it had any impact on, you know, leaders? people are predicting, you know, there'll be less need for middle management. I'm just curious your your perspective on how it's how it's affecting your industry and if you're using it, how are you using it? speaker-1: Yeah, so so as a user, it's it's definitely helpful to do research quickly. like when we're coming up with with new policies or new approaches, it can compile a lot of information quickly for us to to inform those things. It it helps with simple administrative tasks too, like job descriptions and those sorts of things. What I've found personally with it is it gets you about eighty percent there right now. We use the mindset of AI as a really smart intern. So the better the better information that you provide it up front, the better instruction, the better output you get, but but always check the answers. 'cause at Space Center Houston, from a content perspective, we don't use it because there's a lot of false information about space. And we we need to be kind of an authoritative source of of information. So We gotta really check the answers and the content if if anyone's using that. larger what I've what I've heard at global HR conferences, colleagues talk about kind of the use of AI and and the phrase that that I've heard multiple times that I really like is I mean AI is certainly changing job profiles. there's certain jobs that are gonna be more important in the future and Some of today's jobs that will be less important based on AI. But the general theme is people who know how to use AI are going to take jobs from people who don't know how to use it. So how do we as organizations enable that use of the tool? And then how are we managing AI going forward as as another tool in the toolkit? That's the general general approach that I've heard and that I resonate with for sure. speaker-0: Definitely agree. Yeah. It it's not really gonna replace necessarily it shouldn't replace, but it it'll enable you to do more. yeah, that's interesting. The also the you know, the fact that of course you're you're say you're the information source actually that the a lot of other people's AIs are pulling from. So of course you can't use it sense for certain things, applications. That makes sense. speaker-1: Well, and and there's a lot of there's a lot of false information out there on the internet about you know, space missions, space you know, human space flight in general. So you you've gotta be real careful with the sources that where you're getting your data. speaker-0: Yeah, that makes sense. Well, Brady, it's been a incredible conversation. I have one final question for you. If you could pick one practical tip for business owners wanting to build an effective and healthy culture in their own company, what would it be? speaker-1: I think you know, leaders are kind of the the lid of the organization's capacity. So as leaders we need to keep growing, keep learning. And I would I would say stay curious, keep learning. There's always things that that we can do better as a leader to to help our teams and help our organization. So that would be my encouragement to to listeners, just and they're already demonstrating that peep by by even being part of this and and listening to different perspectives. speaker-0: thank you so much for all the insights today. really appreciate it. if listeners enjoyed the conversation as much as I have, where can they find you? Learn learn more also about your book. speaker-1: Yeah, the best place to connect with me is through LinkedIn. so I'm I'm out there on LinkedIn. but also you can go to to my name, BradyPile.com, find in more information about my book and then my blog site. I have a bunch of book summaries as well out there. So yeah, let's let's connect and keep conversations rolling. Yeah, thank you, Pete. Appreciate it.