Latest / Dugout Dish Baseball Recruiting Podcast powered by EMD Baseball / Episode 122: Listener Email Q & A

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Episode 122: Listener Email Q & A · Dugout Dish Baseball Recruiting Podcast powered by EMD Baseball

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:11
  Speaker B: Welcome to this week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I am Andy Kiri Kitties, joined by my lovely co host Keith Glasser. How we doing?
• 0:18
  Speaker A: Great.
• 0:19
  Speaker C: How are you?
• 0:20
  Speaker B: Good. Today we had a very nice, thoughtful email sent to a loyal listener and we're going to cover some of the questions that he posed in this email that I think are very relevant to the topic of college baseball recruiting. So let's dive right in. All right, first question. With the state of college baseball the way it is regarding roster rule changes, transfer portal, is it wise to agree to a verbal commitment in the summer before your junior year or should you wait until next summer? I think me and you are probably going to have similar answers to this in that it depends. If my knee jerk reaction to this question was if you get an offer from a school that you are ready to commit to, you should take that offer.
• 1:34
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:35
  Speaker B: If you're, if all the stuff lines up, you like the coaching staff, it's the right academic fit, it's the right level of play, it's the right opportunity, it's the right offer. I don't think waiting benefits you in any way, shape or form.
• 1:54
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:55
  Speaker B: And this is likely going to fall for kids who are getting offers in the ACC or the SEC or something like that.
• 2:01
  Speaker A: Right.
• 2:01
  Speaker B: Like you're probably not going to be able to say no to some of those schools.
• 2:05
  Speaker A: Right.
• 2:06
  Speaker B: And the reason I say that is that if it's the right offer at the right level and it checks all the boxes for you, those coaches aren't going to wait around and you may not get something that comes around that fits like that. But if you, if it matches. Yeah, absolutely. I think you should take that offer. With that being said, if you've got offers from schools you're just not interested in at all or you want to bet on yourself. So maybe you get an offer from like a low mid major and it's a big offer and they really like you, but you think you've got an off season of development that's going to get you into another category. Yeah, I could see wait until the next summer. But I think this is one of those questions that it's going to be unique to every single individual and you have to have a really good idea of what you're looking for. You have to have a really good idea of where you're at right now and where you think you could potentially be. So my response in summary is it depends, but if the offer is right, take the offer.
• 3:17
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think that it's I don't really have much to add, to be completely honest. I think, you know, if you listen to this long enough, you know that it's, we, we talk more about the right fit for what it is you're looking for, academically, athletically, socially, all those things. If you get an offer and it does check all of those boxes, then yeah, it's worth going down that road. But if they're not, if it doesn't check all of those boxes, then it's fine to wait. And I do think that a good portion of schools, especially if you're, you're entertaining offers before your junior year of high school, like you're probably entertaining some, some higher end things. Power 4 type schools is what I mean by that. So they get, you know, you do want to take your visit and see what it looks like to make sure that those things check the box and that you do feel comfortable saying that that's where you want to go to school for, you know, what essentially amounts to the next six years of your life, your four years of college and two years that you have left playing high school baseball, that you're comfortable being there.
• 4:30
  Speaker B: You know, but if those don't, if.
• 4:32
  Speaker C: Those things don't line up, then it's fine waiting. And again, I, you know, I should elaborate. I think that you're going to have, those coaches are going to be very clear in what their time frame is for commitments. They might tell you like, hey, like we're like more or less deadline. You, like, you know, we're going to give you about a month or so or however many, whatever it might be in their program where they're going to give you an opportunity to really try to figure that out over the course of the next however many weeks, you know, a month, so that you can really make that decision. But if you're not comfortable doing that, there's, there's no problem in saying no because the likelihood of you picking up more offers is, is probably pretty high if you're, if you're entertaining offers going into your junior year of high school.
• 5:22
  Speaker B: Very, very good point.
• 5:24
  Speaker C: Next question.
• 5:25
  Speaker B: So I'm actually going to skip down to question four and then five because they group together around the verbal commitment. Right?
• 5:34
  Speaker A: So.
• 5:36
  Speaker C: Hold on, before we get to that. Let's, let's just be very clear. The verbal is exactly what it sounds like. It's a verbal, like you're not signing anything. So you're taking their word, they're taking your word. So that's nothing is signed. Nothing is, is signed. Seal delivered until we decide whatever it is that we're doing, because we got rid of the. The national letter of intent and whatever else we have going on. So go ahead.
• 6:05
  Speaker B: Sorry. Yes, that is a very. I mean, that's probably the most important thing off the top is just to understand what that is. It is very much a verbal or. All right, so basically the question is, how often do coaches back out of verbal agreements and what do you do if this happens?
• 6:23
  Speaker A: Right.
• 6:24
  Speaker B: And I think the other piece of this is, like, probably explaining a little.
• 6:29
  Speaker C: Bit why.
• 6:31
  Speaker B: Or how this can happen or why it may happen in certain situations. So you got a verbal agreement in place with the coach. You can back out, they can back out.
• 6:42
  Speaker A: Right.
• 6:43
  Speaker B: There's nothing binding here. How often does it happen where a coach pulls an offer? Probably less than you think, than most people think. You only hear about it on Twitter, right. And people get really verbal about it and. And, you know, you kind of hear about the worst case scenario. It's not nearly as prevalent as I think a lot of people think it is.
• 7:09
  Speaker A: Right.
• 7:09
  Speaker B: Where I think kind of the notion that a lot of people have regarding the verbal agreement is that, you know, name whatever SEC school offers 20 guys, and then they just pull all the offers when they decide that those guys aren't good enough or they want to go in a different direction. That's never the intention that these coaches go in with. Shouldn't say never. It's almost never the intention of over recruiting so that you can pull offers.
• 7:35
  Speaker A: Right.
• 7:36
  Speaker B: But to say that it doesn't happen would be false. It does happen. It absolutely happens. And how often? I mean, that's up for debate. You know, I think it happens at some places more than others. But I think the other piece of important context there is is why does it happen? Most of the time, a coach pulls an offer for a couple potential reasons. One, you did something off the field that was so egregious that I don't want to be associated with you anymore. Easy way to get an offer pulled, Get a dui, get arrested, you know, like something so dumb that that coach is in a situation where, like, you are not worth the trouble. We're moving in a different direction. The other one, and this is the hardest one to stomach, is that when you get to the highest level of college baseball, the competition level is so freaking high, and these coaches are under a lot of pressure to put the best product that they can possibly put out on the field.
• 8:42
  Speaker A: Right?
• 8:43
  Speaker B: It's the blessing and the curse of being a coach. Brian O' Connor makes $2.5 million to coach in Mississippi State now.
• 8:50
  Speaker A: Right.
• 8:51
  Speaker B: He is getting paid to win baseball games, not make sure that every kid feels good about the offer or everybody's super happy. Like, that's not what he get paid to do. He has to make decisions with the program in mind. And oftentimes, if a kid does get an offer pulled, it's usually because from the time of that initial verbal commitment to when that coach ultimately pulls that offer, the development that was made by that player wasn't good enough. And you are no longer good enough to play at our level.
• 9:29
  Speaker A: Right.
• 9:29
  Speaker B: Because there's. If you're going to commit a kid in August after their junior year, Right. Me, Keith, me. And you've talked about this a bunch. That kid is. He is 18, he's 24 plus months. Call it 30 months away from playing a college baseball game.
• 9:47
  Speaker A: Right.
• 9:47
  Speaker B: I think I'm doing my math.
• 9:49
  Speaker A: Right.
• 9:49
  Speaker B: 30 months away from playing a college baseball game. There's a lot of projection involved in that. Am I doing it right? I can see you doing the math.
• 10:02
  Speaker A: Right.
• 10:03
  Speaker B: I think it's 30 months. Yeah. So there's a lot of projection involved in that commitment.
• 10:13
  Speaker A: Right.
• 10:13
  Speaker B: If that kid doesn't get better and he doesn't continue to develop, there comes a point where if they commit you at 87 to 89 and you got a really good breaking ball and you're 6 foot 3 and 175 pounds, and you fast forward a year and you're still 87, 89, 6 foot 3, 170 pounds. I may have some concerns about your level of commitment to getting better.
• 10:37
  Speaker A: Right.
• 10:38
  Speaker B: Some kids take a step back and unfortunately, due to the circumstances at which some of these coaches find themselves in, you ultimately have to make a decision as to whether that kid is good enough to play for you. And coaches, they don't want to have to make that decision. We'd all like to get it right on August 1st.
• 10:56
  Speaker A: Right.
• 10:57
  Speaker B: I'm going to offer 10 guys. I'm going to stick with my 10 commitments. I don't have to worry about that class forever.
• 11:02
  Speaker A: Right.
• 11:04
  Speaker B: But that's just not how it works.
• 11:06
  Speaker A: So.
• 11:09
  Speaker B: Yes, it happens. It's usually for a couple reasons. One side of it is you have to take ownership of your development to put yourself in a position to not get decommitted.
• 11:19
  Speaker A: Right.
• 11:20
  Speaker B: And if it does happen, you got to go back to the drawing board. It's as simple as that. Like, you can't feel bad for yourself. You got to go back to the drawing board. You got to go try to find a fit because if you got committed that early, you're still probably pretty good. So there's probably some options out there for you. But you know, you definitely going to have to take a step back and put together a plan and target some new schools.
• 11:44
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think the other thing too is that, and you hit on it with, with the Power four is where a lot of these guys are getting paid a lot of money to win baseball games. And this with the portal, with the influx of money into college baseball, with the growth of college baseball and where we're at like, it, it is a business. And with revenue sharing and nil money, it is a business. And Jay Bills has talked about this and a lot of other people have talked about this, but that's what this has become. And it is, it is tough, I think, for, for young men to enter into that kind of world, maybe not necessarily understanding what it all is. And what I mean by that is that you have like, you, you're going to commit whenever it is that you commit. And if you do end up committing to some of these schools, like you do run that risk of being, you know, decommitted and, and told that you don't have a spot anymore, the roster limits are going down. The portal is opening up more opportunities than there's ever been before. Not to say that everyone's going up that gets in there, you know, but there's more players that are available to coaches than there ever have been before. And at those levels where coaches are really trying to win, you know, almost immediately, that can play a factor in. And if you're not going to be able to either a put in the time in order to get yourself to be super competitive when you set foot on campus and, or you do regress and, you know, take a step backwards, then that could happen. And you know, to your point, it does not happen nearly as much as a lot of people think that it does, but that's always going to be a factor. And not just before you get to campus, but when you get to campus. You know, you might be told after.
• 13:40
  Speaker B: Just going to say that, yeah, you.
• 13:42
  Speaker C: Might get told after your freshman year, like, hey man, we don't have a spot for you next year because we just don't see you being able to really compete and help us win here at this level. And you might find yourself in the transfer portal and, you know, trying to find another school, you know, so it's not just, you know, it, it's not just the verbal Commitment. And I know we're, you know, we're taking this thread a little bit, you know, further down the road, but it's, it's all kind of the same thing, right? Like, you, you can absolutely get decommitted. You also could get told that you don't have a spot anymore once you're actually there, you know, but the, the reality is that if you can continue to develop and you continue to compete and you continue to produce, it's not never, you know, not to say it's never going to be an issue, but it would be. You're going to find yourself less likely to be having those conversations than if you stop working and take steps back and you're not competitive. And, you know, when you, when you show up in games and you have the ball and you're on the mound, like everything you do in practice got to show up, same thing around the plate or when you're playing defense, you know, so all of those things, you know, they all factor in. And it's an everyday thing, right? Like, you know, coaches will always tell you your opportunity is every day, how you go about your business every day and what you do. And it holds true when you're in high school, what you do every day is going to ultimately help you get better in the long run to where you probably will not find yourself in these types of situations. But to think that it doesn't happen is a fallacy. And to think that it happens all the time is a fallacy. It is a small number of people, but generally speaking, there's going to be reasons as to why. And again, coaches don't want to have these conversations. They don't enjoy doing it. But with the way that college baseball is the business that it is, they are starting to become more necessary conversations than they ever have been in the past.
• 15:42
  Speaker B: And I think you bring up a good point about when you get to campus, because I would say that it's more prevalent to lose your spot when you get to campus, not before you get there. Because there's always, when you're a high school kid, there's always the promise of you getting to campus and developing. But once you get to campus, if you don't develop, you're way easier to. You're way easier to move on from. It's really just that. That simple, right? You've been in the environment, I've seen you try to interact and compete at this level. It's just not going to work. That could be character issues. It could be just maybe not far enough along and they don't see, you know, you really being able to, to contribute. So I mean, I think at the end of the day that probably the, the crux of this conversation is around, you know, we started talking about the verbal commitment and what does that mean? But I think from a playing perspective, from a recruit perspective, you're always getting evaluated, always. And you owe it to yourself probably more than anybody to make sure that you continue to your development in. Put yourself in a situation where the coach who recruited you and offered you that spot and you accepted that offer, that you don't put them in a situation where they second guess anything about whether you're going to be good enough or not, right? And I think that, that, you know, sometimes, and it happens with young guys, right, that they commit early and they don't do what's necessary to get where they're going to go. Because if you're one of those guys who commits in August, you're probably a pretty high end player. You're probably going to a pretty darn competitive program. And it doesn't get any easier when you get there. It gets way harder because that filter is a lot finer. So on the flip side of a coach pulling his offer, the next question is, what if you decommit, right? Say you commit early, maybe you see a big spike in talent. You get some other schools that come back and they ended up, you know, they ended up making an offer to you since it all is verbal. And let's be honest, there's, there's, there's no honor amongst thieves in this. You know, there's nobody shy about going after a guy who blows up. Happens all the time. Is it wrong to back out of a verbal commitment? Does it blacklist you or create a negative reputation for the player that you are? This is a good question and I'm morally conflicted on this. And I think that my stance on this has changed a little bit in recent years, right? Really put myself in the shoes of the player, right. And less from a coaching perspective because I was lucky enough where we never had to pull an offer from a kid, right? So I've never, I've never done that, have had a kid back out of an offer to go to a bigger school. Go into your commitment with the intention of honoring it, right? You shouldn't. This would be my stance. You shouldn't take an offer to have one in hand with no intention of honoring that commitment. With that being said, say you commit to a Big Ten school, right? No offense to the Big Ten say you commit to a Big Ten school and an SEC comes calling nine months later because you went from 87 to 89 to 91 to 94. I would have a hard time telling that kid if they're ready to make the jump. I would have a hard time telling that kid in the family not to listen. And that, like, pains me a little bit to say because I like to think that I'm a pretty honorable dude and I stick to my commitments and I'm loyal. But I think in today's game, with money involved. Right, and there likely is money involved, that that happens. And I think that you have to at least consider it. I don't think that decommitting puts a stain on your name. I think coaches understand the landscape with that being said. Guys who decommit and recommit and transfer and transfer and transfer. Yeah, I think a lot of those guys, unless you're Andrew Fisher who just goes and malls, baseball, wherever he goes, like, you're probably going to have a reputation that follows you a little bit. But yeah, this is a tough one for me to answer because part of my answer I don't like. Sure.
• 20:54
  Speaker C: You know, I think that it's more the. If you asked me this question five years ago, six years ago, my answer would be, I don't think that you should ever verbally commit somewhere and then decommit. I think we are very close to a football model where we're flipping recruits and it's a big deal. In college baseball, the amount of money I just touched on it of, like, this is a business, like any way you want to slice it, every single sport in college is now way more business oriented than it's ever been. I do not think that you should verbal to a place with the intention of just using that verbal commitment to shop yourself elsewhere. I think you can get a little bit of a blackball bad name if that is the intent behind you committing somewhere in order to try to force your hand at other schools. But if you're committed somewhere and you do make a huge jump, there's. I would rather the kid because it's your career and what it is that you're going to do, get it right on the front end instead of getting somewhere and then staying for the fall or the year and then being like, you know what? I'm just gonna get in the portal anyways and try to go to that school.
• 22:33
  Speaker B: You know, So I, I think.
• 22:35
  Speaker C: There'S multiple different ways that it happens nowadays. You know, I think that, you know, and I think it's hard sometimes when you have, you know, there are recruiting pitches out there. And it's not wrong in today's landscape where coaches are openly embracing the transfer portal and saying, like, hey, man, if you come here and blow up, like, we're okay. If you jump in the portal, we'll help. And that. That's a completely different mindset than five years ago. Like, that never would have happened. So what's the difference on the front end of it, right? What, what is the difference? Instead of doing, instead of going there and coaching for a year or, you know, whatever, developing for a year and then leaving, you know, if you've popped and you know, a school that can offer more money and can, you know, give you more scholarship and better facilities and whatever it might be that it is that's on your list of things that you want to check the box on if it's a better situation, I'm gonna have a hard time telling somebody, yeah, you shouldn't, you shouldn't look for that better situation because of this. And it's not like I, I agree. Like, it's, I never would have had this answer five years ago, but the landscape of college baseball has changed. Like, make no bones about it. And, you know, I, I do, I think that this is something that's going to happen quite frequently. No, I don't. But I'd be lying to you if I, if it doesn't happen a handful of times over the course of the year.
• 24:08
  Speaker A: Right.
• 24:08
  Speaker C: Like, it's going to happen and it's, it's going to be more normalized and some people are still not going to like it. But this is what college baseball is. And I truly, honestly believe that we are very close to a football type setup where guys are going to commit and then guys are going to flip. They're going to get flip commitments into other schools and do those types of things that we've never seen in baseball, because baseball forever has always been. It's a gentleman sport. You say that this is what you're going to do, that's what you're going to do. It's the same reason that, you know, your volunteer assistant in college baseball makes $0. You got to pay your dues before you go do it. Same reason you and I work for free for as long as we did. Because it's just what you do in baseball. And I think that it's one of those things that is going to change. And at some point you either, you have to adapt or die in this model. And I think That a lot of. A lot more people are going to swim towards the side of adapting than not. And, you know, I don't think. Again, I don't think that committing and committing to multiple different schools on the front end and doing all that stuff is. Is going to bode well for you. But, you know, if you were committed to Marist and I'm only using Maris because it's our alma mater and Tennessee calls you, I'd have a hard time telling you, like, yeah, man, you shouldn't, you should, you shouldn't listen to that like that. That would be hard for me to.
• 25:45
  Speaker A: Do.
• 25:47
  Speaker C: You know, So I agree. Like, it, you know, it. I. It is hard to reckon with, I think, because of the way that we came up and the.
• 25:57
  Speaker A: What.
• 25:57
  Speaker B: What.
• 25:58
  Speaker C: What has happened in college baseball. But I think it's more a microcosm of what's going on in the landscape of college baseball that it is, until you're signed, whatever that is, this is what could potentially happen. And I do think, I do think this, too, that there is, because there is the chance, right, we literally just spoke about this, that there is the chance that you can be decommitted. I think the kids should have some leverage in this as well. That. And look, some things could change, too. Like you might change your verbal commitment because the coach that recruited you went to a different school, right? So you, you could be committed somewhere and then that person, that head coach and coaching staff leaves. You might not want to play for the next head coach or whatever it might be. You could change your verbal that way, you know, but if we're just straight up talking about, you know, you changing your verbal commitment, I would say that it would be way more of a. Something would have to change from an athletic standpoint, where you got exponentially better and a bigger fish came, swing it swimming and that, you know, you decided to listen to see what happened there, is what I would say. But again, I think it's the landscape of college baseball, not necessarily the.
• 27:20
  Speaker A: What.
• 27:21
  Speaker C: We'Ve seen over the last 20 years before all these changes.
• 27:27
  Speaker B: Here's something I'll add, and I was thinking about this while you're talking. This kind of goes back to, like, if you're going to make a commitment, commit with the intent of going to that school.
• 27:42
  Speaker A: Right.
• 27:42
  Speaker B: If circumstances come up that warrant you decommitting. Okay.
• 27:47
  Speaker A: Right.
• 27:48
  Speaker B: It's part of the conversation now. It's, as you said, the landscape's changing. The coaches used to have all the leverage. The players got some leverage now. And I Think that's a good thing. What I would, what I would caution against is committing and then having somebody shopping you around in the background.
• 28:13
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:14
  Speaker B: Because. And here's why. College baseball coaches talk. They talk a lot. A lot of us are friends. A lot of us are either friends personally or we are friends of friends. And I will tell you right now that if I get a phone call from an advisor or whoever and he says, hey, you know, take a look at this guy, and I go, hey, I thought he was committed to so and so. Yeah. But like, you know, he's still looking for some other stuff. I can promise you, I'm calling that coach.
• 28:54
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 28:57
  Speaker B: Maybe not all coaches would follow that rule.
• 28:59
  Speaker A: Right.
• 28:59
  Speaker B: Some of them may pursue that kid because that's how they operate. That's their prerogative. But if I get that phone call, I am calling that coach and going, hey, man, just a heads up, I just got a call from this guy, so&so is looking for other offers, and you're probably going to lose the offer that you have. So there's that. The other thing I would caution against is that if you make that commitment in August, people getting in your ear that you're better than where you committed. And this happens. It happens more than it should.
• 29:39
  Speaker A: Right.
• 29:39
  Speaker B: And I hear about this more than I should, but you get a kid who goes from 85 to 88 to 88 to 91, and all of a sudden there's somebody that says, hey, man, I think you're better than the school you committed to. I know a guy. Let me call them and see if they're interested. Be very, very cautious of people that are willing to do that because one, they're probably not that trustworthy. Two, you get yourself into the shopping around conversation, and three, that person doesn't have any skin in the game at all. And oftentimes the people who make these suggestions do not have all the information they need to have an educated opinion from the coaching staff, from the development plan, from the academic fit, from the social fit. They don't have all they need to have an educated opinion on where you fit in college baseball. And that becomes incredibly problematic for me. So those are two things that when you're talking about, you make that verbal commitment outside of what we said up top. Those are two things I would strongly, strongly caution against is shopping that offer and then listening to somebody who's probably not all that well informed in your situation, no matter how much they think they are telling you that you belong at a quote unquote better school because on paper a school might have a bigger name, but it doesn't mean that it's a better fit and that stuff. It breaks me. It breaks me.
• 31:19
  Speaker C: Yeah. I mean I think the other thing too, like if you to that point, if you've verbaled somewhere and none of those bigger schools are calling you, like you're not being recruited by them, they won't be coy about it.
• 31:35
  Speaker B: No, they won't. Anything else you want to add on the verbal con? Verbal conversation?
• 31:41
  Speaker C: No, sir.
• 31:43
  Speaker B: All right, so we got kind of a two part here. First I want to tackle the academic portion of it. So if coaches do offer, is there a financial portion of the scholarship? And I think what we're driving at here is more around the performance, academic performance merit spade scholarship and can that be a part of an offer? Simple answer to that question is yes. Most schools can stack if they don't give you a full scholarship, which is actually likely to become a thing to a certain extent in college baseball. You do have the ability to get academic based money as a part of your offer.
• 32:24
  Speaker A: Right.
• 32:24
  Speaker B: It's a reason that me and you stress be the best student you can be because there's still going to be a small percentage of schools that are going to have enough scholarships to offer full scholarships. Most are still probably going to be partial. So you could get a 60% baseball scholarship and maybe you get another 30% because you're a really, really good student. So that is very much a thing.
• 32:49
  Speaker C: Yeah. I'm sorry, I thought you were going to keep.
• 32:52
  Speaker B: I didn't know if you had anything else you wanted to add to that.
• 32:54
  Speaker C: No, I mean I think that the vast majority of schools are at the very least going to be able to tell you your academic and merit side of things. Some schools that I think more moving towards this model too would be able to tell you or at least give you a very, very close ballpark number of what you would get need based as well. It could change based off of whenever you file your FAFSA and all that other stuff. But they can generally look at some financial stuff and give you a really good ballpark number of like it's going to be between you know, 30 and 35, 000 that you'll get in need based money, whatever that looks like. Right. You know, so that, that will be a part of the, your initial offer. And I think that is, it holds true across all levels, Division one, two, three, especially in division three. Because I think that they, you want to be able to make the decision, if you get an offer, is it going to be affordable so that you know early on in the process. For two different reasons, one for you and two, so that you and the coaching staff doesn't waste their time. Because if it looks like it's not going to be affordable by any stretch of the imagination, they're going to want to move on from that. From you. Not negatively, but hey, it's not. You're not going to be able to afford this. Fine. There's a lot of people who can't.
• 34:24
  Speaker A: That.
• 34:24
  Speaker C: That's good. Like, let me know if there's anything it is that I can help you with further on down the road. But it'll be a part of that initial offer before you verbal that you have a. At least a pretty good ballpark idea of what, what you would be looking at financially for. For school?
• 34:41
  Speaker B: Yeah. I'll give an example of how this can. This can kind of go down because we just had a. We just had a. A family go through this. I won't get into the details of the school or anything, but I'll give you kind of the. I'll give you kind of the breakdown of how it all went down. They ended up seeing this guy enough. They ended up really liking him. They had a baseball number in mind.
• 35:00
  Speaker A: Right.
• 35:00
  Speaker B: In terms of how much they were going to offer him from a baseball perspective. But I get a call say, hey, can you give me his transcripts and his test scores? Because we need to go run his stuff by the academic department, the admissions department, because we want to get a read on how much merit money he's going to get. So we have a picture of what the whole offer is going to be so that we can break down this is what the full offer is. And that is. That's a fairly typical way for a lot of schools to operate, is that they'll put a baseball number on you. Yeah, we're going to give the kid 20 grand.
• 35:32
  Speaker A: Right.
• 35:34
  Speaker B: All right, cool. We also know these really good students, so let's go get an academic read on him. And they'll come back and say, hey, if. If you want him, he's going to qualify for 15 grand. Now I can go back to you and say, hey, Keith, here's our offer. We freaking love you. We want you to be here. Total package is going to be $35,000. 20 of that's going to be baseball money. 15 is going to be merit. The 15,000 in merit is going to be reliant on you getting a 3.0. And you'll have access to that money for four years, right? So that's typically how that. That goes down. So, yes, academic money can be a part of it. The second part of this question is a little bit of a slippier slip. Slippery slippery or more slippery?
• 36:20
  Speaker C: Struggling to say it, huh? It's slippery.
• 36:22
  Speaker B: Slippity, dippity. Basically, the. The crux of the question is, if you get offers, can you negotiate? Yes and no, right? This is one of those things that you probably got to have some leverage, right? If they're the only offer, they're probably not going to be open to you being like, hey, you know, you offered me 30, but, like, I'd really like 35, they're probably going to say, hey, man, take it or leave it.
• 36:56
  Speaker A: Right?
• 36:58
  Speaker B: But if you've got four or five offers and you say, hey, coach, I freaking love it there and I want to be there, but you guys offered me 30, and I got an offer from another school that I also really like, and they offered me 38, like, can you at least match it and, like, we'll do the deal? I don't think that that's crazy, but the idea that you're going to walk into every offer with the ability to. To negotiate, I think would be a little bit of a misnomer. Coaches still have to kind of balance their checkbook, if you will, and they assign. Basically what you're doing is you're assigning a value to the player. And, you know, think of it like free agency in Major League Baseball is like, you kind of got a market value, and that's going to be predicated by the schools that. That are. That are actually in the mix and are, you know, willing to make an offer for you. So I wouldn't go in with the idea that you're going to be able to negotiate up your scholarship. With that being said, if you've got four or five offers that you can comp. I do think there is room for a conversation of, hey, coach, I freaking love it.
• 38:11
  Speaker A: There's.
• 38:11
  Speaker B: But I got another school is offering me a lot more money. Can you get a little bit closer? But once again, that's a slippery slope, right? And there's some coaches. There's some coaches that say, all right, man, we're not even offering you anymore. So, I guess, yeah, I mean, I think it's.
• 38:30
  Speaker C: I think you can probably. Here's the two things I would say. I think you can probably attempt to negotiate some semblance of nil money, and even that it's all dependent upon Whatever it is that they have. The other thing I would say is that you can likely negotiate the need based financial aid piece when it comes back from the FAFSA and all that other stuff. With financial aid, I think there is a small chance that you can if you have some leverage of like, hey, I really like this place. It's, you know, across the same profile of school from everything, right? The, the price, the whatever it might be. You know, I'm getting to your point. 35 with you guys, they're giving me 38. Like that 3 grand really would make a huge difference. Yeah, I think that that's not, that is a fair question to ask. But also understand they may be like, yeah, no, 35 is what you get. We don't have any more money. Like this is, this is our maxed out number. And understand that you, you might get told no, but I, I think you're better off trying to, if you're looking to somehow get more money for things. I think the nil now and just general financial aid from a need based standpoint is a far better route for you to go because it's all going to go to the same place. It's all going to essentially pay for your school. So, you know, if, if three grand is the number, let's say, and you can't get a baseball wise, you might be able to get it out of financial aid. Like, hey, this is my top choice. This is really where I want to go. You know, add a couple other schools have offered a little bit more money which makes it a little bit more affordable for us as a family. You know, do you think you could, you know, give. Find a little bit more from a need based standpoint so that we can afford this school and this can be the place I want to go to would probably be my advice not to say that you can't negotiate, but understand that the likelihood is that you'll be. I don't really think that there's a lot of people out there lowballing players. So the likelihood would be like, yeah, no, we don't, this is, you know, we don't have that much scholarship money left. Or, you know, this is, this is the final offer. You know, if you need to get more money, like financial aid might be the better route to go. So understand the likelihood will probably be no. But you know, I do think there's no, there's no hurt in asking if it's presented the right way. You know, if you just go in and say like, I want more money, like the Likelihood is going to be like, you ain't getting any more money and we're pulling this offer right now. But if it's like, hey, you know, is there any way, like, and I think if you phrase it in a way of like, is there any way we could get, you know, three grand more, what would that look like? Is it baseball? Is it financial aid? Is it? And like, what does that look like for us to be able to afford this? I think that's more well received in that type of quote unquote negotiations.
• 41:44
  Speaker B: Well said. Last question. It's a good one. In the new dynamic of baseball recruitment, it's a great way to put it. By the way, do you think tournament play is still the best way to get recruited or should players go to individual college baseball camps slash showcases that, that seem to be happening a lot lately. All right. Coaches still want to see you playing games, period. Even outside of the camp showcase setting, right. On campus camps are usually used for two things. It's usually either to identify a player and get to know them a little bit or it's to kind of finish the process.
• 42:32
  Speaker A: Right.
• 42:33
  Speaker B: It's kind of at one end or the other. But I think if you're going about this, you probably need to do both.
• 42:41
  Speaker A: All right.
• 42:42
  Speaker B: And once again, timing dictates this. If you're a 2028, you probably don't need to spend a lot of time running around to a bunch of college camps this summer.
• 42:51
  Speaker A: Right.
• 42:51
  Speaker B: If you want to go to a, if you want to go to an on campus camp because it's convenient, like, great. I think that playing and focusing on developing is probably going to be a smarter path. If you're a 2027 and you're a really, really good player and you. That's been confirmed by multiple parties and you have some schools that you think you are a fit at, I don't think it hurts at all to go to any of those camps.
• 43:13
  Speaker A: Right.
• 43:13
  Speaker B: I think in some ways it can, it can legitimately move the needle, especially if the timing of it is right and you actually fit at those particular schools.
• 43:21
  Speaker A: Right.
• 43:21
  Speaker B: We've, we've talked about this and it's really important that you're targeting the right schools.
• 43:25
  Speaker A: Right.
• 43:26
  Speaker B: Like if you're going to go to Arkansas's camp, you need to be Arkansas caliber or else, you know, you're probably just wasting money to go to camp, which is, you know, for some kids is fine, you know, but if you're 27 and you're 80 to 82, you're not getting in the mix at Arkansas. All right, it's just, it's just that simple. But if you're, if you're 88 to 91 is a 27 and you spend a really good breaking ball in Arkansas is your dream school and there's no other way to get in front of those guys. Like, yeah, go to camp, you know, go and shoot your shot. But I think the core of it is still tournaments and playing. I think you need to work hard to get your name out there, either via social media, you know, working with someone like us, working closely with your travel ball coaches. Like specifically in the early part of it when you can't directly contact coaches and you, you got to have a really good assessment of where you fit in the grand scheme of things in terms of, in order to target the correct camps. But if you're playing in the right tournaments, playing well in those tournaments will do you really well, will do you really good. With that being said, I do think it is beneficial to supplement it with some well targeted on campus camps and potentially some events that are going to get you a little bit more exposure. I think the 26 conversation or like when you get into your junior summer, I think it's a little bit of a different conversation because you're kind of in the last window of recruiting and you need to really be strategic about where am I going, when am I going, who am I in contact with, where do I fit? And starting to make really good decisions. But early on, targeting a couple of camps I think can be beneficial. But most importantly, you need to go and play well and you need to play well in the bigger events right down in Georgia, any type of invite stuff, your state games, futures games, like if you get a chance to play in those types of events and you go and play well. And I still consider that to be like, even though the state games and the futures games are kind of invite type stuff, I still consider that like tournament setting, like you're playing real games versus going to an on campus camp where you're gonna have a workout and you know there'll be some instruction. Like I separate them that way. I don't necessarily separate it where, like if you get what I'm saying, I'm.
• 46:01
  Speaker C: Picking up what you're putting down. Yeah, I think that you have to do both. The, the on campus camp is going to be a little bit more to your point, identifying slash making decision decisions.
• 46:16
  Speaker B: On guys that you've seen before.
• 46:18
  Speaker C: But ultimately we all want to see guys play in actual live game settings because we want to see what shows up in game when there's something on the line. I do think it's a little bit less intense nowadays because I think a good portion of the showcase tournament stuff has become more about showcasing than it is winning, which you really got to work through to kind of see those types of like those character traits that you're looking for. But ultimately you're by and large playing against players that are aspiring to play college baseball or at least one. I can play competitive high school baseball. You're going to have some guys that are playing that are, you know, are going to go play football or hoops or soccer or whatever in college, but they're competitive and they want to continue to play, you know, high school baseball.
• 47:16
  Speaker B: At a high level.
• 47:18
  Speaker C: But you're playing against for reference players that aspire to do that, which generally means you're playing against better players. Coaches want to see how you show up against your peers and what it looks like playing against them. So they're going to want to see you play in these games. They want to see how you react in games. They want to see how you handle adversity. They want to see, you know, what happens when the umpire keeps keyholeing you, you know, what happens if guys make errors behind you. It's really easy to be going. Everything goes well when everything's going good. But what, you know, who are you when it's, it's a little bit tougher. And you know, they also want to see what it is like when you're going good. You know, are you still a good teammate? Are you still, you know, working on things you have to get better at? You know that, that's a lot, you can discern a lot of that information and watching tournament games and, and just, you know, regular one off games. The other is, you know, the camp is a little bit more designed for you to figure out whether or not that that coaching staff is for you and you are for them. You know, so there's there, there's pros and cons to each. I would say that if you're, you're into this recruiting cycle, you're going to want to go to the correct tournaments, you want to go to the bigger ones where a lot of coaches are going to be at. You know, some of, there's a lot out there, right? There's a lot of different tournament companies and things that are being run, you know, so you want to go to some of the tournaments that are, are going to be recruited by a lot of schools, you know, the safest one I could tell you is, you know, a bunch of Diamond Nation tournaments. You could go to the Northeast Baseball Complex. I'm talking more Mideast, Atlantic here, Northeast New England baseball heaven, places like that where there's, there's going to be tournaments that are going to be held and there's going to be a lot of coaches that are going to be in attendance. Some of these one off tournaments and smaller organizations. Not that they're, they're bad or anything, but the, you don't know what you're going to get from a coaching standpoint, a recruiting standpoint at some of these events. You know, the bigger ones are a little bit easier to kind of know what it kind of is that, that you're getting and then camp stuff. Target the ones you want to go to, coaches, staff that you've had relationships with to see if they might end up be, ultimately be the fit for you.
• 49:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's important to note on this particular topic that these conversations are a lot more detailed and a.
• 49:46
  Speaker C: Lot more.
• 49:49
  Speaker B: Valuable when you're talking about a specific kid in their situation, a specific family in their situation. Because every single, and we've talked about this plenty, but every single kid's path to getting recruited to play college baseball is going to be a little bit different. So you know, regardless of talent level, this conversation can go a lot of different ways based on the individual player and the individual situation of that player. The target schools, where they are from a physical perspective, where they might be from a physical perspective. When you're talking about like projectability, the timing of when to get out in front of some guys, that is all going to be very specific to the individual player and the individual family. But in general, I think we, I think we answered that question.
• 50:43
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 50:44
  Speaker B: Anything else you want to add?
• 50:45
  Speaker C: No, sir.
• 50:47
  Speaker B: All right, that is it. Thank you again for loyal listener who took the time to send an email. We enjoy getting these. They're always fun to read through. It's always fun to communicate and hear from from listeners. And it, it's one, it's just kind of cool to have people reach out and say, hey, love the podcast, would love for you guys to talk about this. So for those of you listening, do not be shy, can hit us up on social media, DM us, can email us directly through our website, but if you have specific questions that you want answered, you know, and if you listen, you know, we release kind of a longer form version on Thursdays and we do a shorter, shorter version on Mondays. We're happy to tackle any questions that come across from listeners in either one of those formats. It'll just kind of depend on, on the, the length of the, the questions and the type of questions that we get. Sometimes it lends itself to five or ten minute quick. Other times it lends itself to where we want to take some time to expand upon it and add a little bit more, more detail to the conversation. So keep them coming. We appreciate them. Thank you again for listening. Make sure you tune in next week. We'll have some more good content for you. Thanks everybody. Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.