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Ellen Yashinsky Chute – What Drives You? · Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman

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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the New Voice, Vox Novus, the New Dimension,
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Speaker 1: Vox Novus thought and movement leaders who will share from
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Speaker 1: their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
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Speaker 1: rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the New Voice. Have you ever wondered how
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Speaker 1: your family shaped the person you are today? My guest
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Speaker 1: this week on Vox Novis, Ellen Yashinsky Shoot says intricate
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Speaker 1: connections between childhood experiences, brain development, and adult identity are
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Speaker 1: the keys to self discovery. Ellen Yashinsky Shoot is a
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Speaker 1: social worker, consultant, mental health educator, and former adjunct lecturer
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Speaker 1: at the University of Michigan School of Social Work. She
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Speaker 1: has dedicated three decades to helping individuals, families, and teams
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Speaker 1: realize and reach their potential. As a practitioner and educator,
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Speaker 1: she has focused on trauma, social work, ethics, relationships, family development,
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Speaker 1: domestic abuse, and divorce. She joins me this week to
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Speaker 1: share her path and book What Drives You How our
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Speaker 1: family dynamics shaped the people we become. Please join me
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Speaker 1: in welcoming to Vox Novis, Ellen Yashinsky Shute. Welcome, Ellen,
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Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Victor.
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Speaker 1: Ellen, Please share with us your early path and how
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Speaker 1: the dynamics of your family shaped you.
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Speaker 2: Yes, so, my early path actually was the foundation for
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Speaker 2: my book. I'll start from the very beginning, and my
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Speaker 2: mother and father were married, and my father went off
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Speaker 2: to fight in World War Two and he came home
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Speaker 2: from the war and they settled in Detroit, Michigan, which
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Speaker 2: is where I live, where I was born, and after
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Speaker 2: the war they had me, and when I was eighteen
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Speaker 2: months old, they decided to divorce, which was relatively unusual
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Speaker 2: back then, but they did, and my father found somebody
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Speaker 2: pretty quickly and moved to another state with her, and
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Speaker 2: my mother and I were sort of a couple for
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Speaker 2: the first seven years of my life. She was seriously
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Speaker 2: dating someone all that time, but they didn't get married
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Speaker 2: until I was seven years old. And in the meantime
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Speaker 2: there had been a lot of transition with my mom
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Speaker 2: who worked full time, and I had a woman who
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Speaker 2: took care of me, and then we moved from Michigan
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Speaker 2: to California briefly, and then we moved back to Michigan.
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Speaker 2: So as a very very small child, my life was
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Speaker 2: pretty turbulent. There were people in the car, and then
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Speaker 2: my father left the car, and then my mother and
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Speaker 2: I were in the car by ourselves. And when that happens,
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Speaker 2: oftentimes the child sort of takes the other front seat
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Speaker 2: in the car. And that's what happened between us for
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Speaker 2: the first seven years of my life. And then my
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Speaker 2: ultimate stepfather, a man who actually legally adopted me, came
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Speaker 2: into my life when I was seven. And when he
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Speaker 2: came into my life, if we used the car metaphor,
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Speaker 2: I had been in the front seat with my mother
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Speaker 2: for seven years, and then I was back in the
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Speaker 2: back seat with my new father driving and my mother
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Speaker 2: sitting in the front passenger seat of the car. And
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Speaker 2: it was from this place in my car that the
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Speaker 2: early knowings came to me about what it meant to
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Speaker 2: sit in the back seat of this car by myself.
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Speaker 2: My parents had many attempts to try to have more children,
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Speaker 2: but without luck, and so I did grow up an
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Speaker 2: only child. All cars have rules, and the primary rule
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Speaker 2: in my car growing up was little girls are to
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Speaker 2: be seen and not heard, and that I took those
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Speaker 2: rules very seriously, and my job in my car was
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Speaker 2: to always look pretty. That was important in my car
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Speaker 2: and to basically be quiet and not have any needs
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Speaker 2: and not have much of a voice. And so I
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Speaker 2: spent my childhood and adolescent being the only child in
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Speaker 2: the backseat of my car, watching my parents interact and
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Speaker 2: contributing little to the conversation. It worked out really well
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Speaker 2: for my parents because I was a good little girl
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Speaker 2: and I didn't want to break the rules, and I
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Speaker 2: think it kept the car driving actually, that they didn't
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Speaker 2: have to tend to me so much, that I didn't
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Speaker 2: interrupt them, and that I was okay independent sitting in
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Speaker 2: the back seat of the car. And there are many
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Speaker 2: many things, many many things about me that came to
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Speaker 2: be during that time. For one is that I've always
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Speaker 2: struggled with having a voice. I'm not It's not easy
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Speaker 2: for me to put my opinion in places where it
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Speaker 2: isn't wanted. I also learned to be very independent. I
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Speaker 2: learned to do things for myself. I learned that if
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Speaker 2: I needed something, I was the one that was going
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Speaker 2: to do it for me. I learned not necessarily to
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Speaker 2: trust that other people were going to be there for
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Speaker 2: me if I needed something. My parents certainly were there
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Speaker 2: in you know, very difficult times when I was sick,
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Speaker 2: they were there and times like that, but just in
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Speaker 2: everyday life, I really felt like they were the couple
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Speaker 2: and I was the outsider and my voice was not.
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Speaker 2: Not only was it not nurtured, but it wasn't necessarily
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Speaker 2: looked for or wanted in situations. And my stage of
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Speaker 2: life now, after having three children, growing up, having three
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Speaker 2: children of my own, and now having grandchildren many of them,
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Speaker 2: I think that children's voices are looked for and are nurtured,
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Speaker 2: and I can't see any of my own children or
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Speaker 2: my grandchildren ever sitting in that same role that I
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Speaker 2: played my life of being a good little girl who
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Speaker 2: always looked nice and who always had a pleasant smile
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Speaker 2: on her face and sort of kept her mouth shut
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Speaker 2: or when she opened her mouth, she had to be
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Speaker 2: funny or witty or something perfectly acceptable. So those were
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Speaker 2: my early beginnings.
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Speaker 1: And what directed your choice of career as a clinical
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Speaker 1: social worker and a psychotherapist.
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Speaker 2: Well, it's really interesting because everything that I've done in
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Speaker 2: my adult life both be being a therapist, and I
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Speaker 2: worked at an organization where I was in charge of
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Speaker 2: all the therapists, and I also taught social work for
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Speaker 2: over twenty years at the University of Michigan. And if
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Speaker 2: you think about those positions, they all are about people
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Speaker 2: looking to hear my voice. So I grew up and
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Speaker 2: created a world for myself where my voice was wanted
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Speaker 2: and needed and called for and appreciated, which is the
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Speaker 2: exact opposite of what I felt in my childhood. Now,
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Speaker 2: I think that very often we either do what we
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Speaker 2: did in our childhood as adults or we do the
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Speaker 2: opposite of what we did in our childhood as adults
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Speaker 2: as an intentional measure, But I help people find something
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Speaker 2: not in that binary, something in the middle. Who am
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Speaker 2: I really if I wasn't being that person in my
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Speaker 2: car or I wasn't being the person who was requested
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Speaker 2: to talk all the time? How much would I really talk?
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Speaker 2: What would I really say if I wasn't in either
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Speaker 2: of those positions? And I literally have felt my spent
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Speaker 2: my adult life figuring out what it is I would
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Speaker 2: really say. And there's a lot more to that. But
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Speaker 2: everything I learned, everything that we learn in our cars,
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Speaker 2: comes with us. Now. If I had siblings, I guarantee
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Speaker 2: you and we all grew up in that car where
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Speaker 2: we weren't allowed to speak in the backseat and children
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Speaker 2: were to be seen and not heard, and I developed
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Speaker 2: this life that I have as an adult, basically as
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Speaker 2: a speaker, whether it's individually in a room with somebody,
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Speaker 2: or in front of a classroom, or in many ways
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Speaker 2: that I am a speaker. I still think that when
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Speaker 2: I was in situations as an adult with my siblings,
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Speaker 2: that I would return to be that little girl in
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Speaker 2: the car who didn't talk. And that comes up for
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Speaker 2: a lot of adults is that they create a life
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Speaker 2: for themselves separate from their families of origin. But then
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Speaker 2: when they return and they are back in that car,
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Speaker 2: you know, in a metaphorical way, whether it's at Thanksgiving
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Speaker 2: dinner or in many ways that we may be with
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Speaker 2: our original families of origin, we return to our old roles.
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Speaker 2: We don't know why we do it. We can't figure
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Speaker 2: out why we do it. We don't act that way
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Speaker 2: anywhere else in the world world for many of us.
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Speaker 2: And so the journey of my book was really about
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Speaker 2: coming to understand how knowing and being aware of what
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Speaker 2: I was taught, what I assumed, what I intuited from
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Speaker 2: my world growing up turned me into who I am now,
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Speaker 2: and it does for every human And I know that
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Speaker 2: because of my years of working with people in therapy
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Speaker 2: and coming to see how they're still acting out their
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Speaker 2: early learning every day and they don't want to and
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Speaker 2: they don't know where it came from, and it's no
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Speaker 2: longer serving them.
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Speaker 1: I can share with you my path. I would love
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Speaker 1: to hear it, and it really echoes what you've been
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Speaker 1: sharing when I was a young man. When I was
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Speaker 1: a child, my mother and father were separated in age
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Speaker 1: by twenty years. My father was twenty years older than
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Speaker 1: my mother at the time of their marriage. I don't
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Speaker 1: believe that he was really ready for barriage, but that's
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Speaker 1: another story. I never felt loved by him as a child,
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Speaker 1: and then when I was eight years old, he took
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Speaker 1: ill and was bedridden, and I became part of his
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Speaker 1: caretaking team with my mother, and for the very first time,
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Speaker 1: I felt that he loved me, and it wired in
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Speaker 1: my young mind if you take care of others, you
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Speaker 1: will be loved, which is a wonderful thing and set
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Speaker 1: a pattern for my life. Except in my adulthood I
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Speaker 1: would run around and take care of everyone else and
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Speaker 1: neglect my own health and my own well being to
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Speaker 1: the extent that it led to some heart problems in
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Speaker 1: my forties and some other stuff, and I came to
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Speaker 1: the realization that I had to give myself the same
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Speaker 1: care that I had so often given others so freely,
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Speaker 1: and if I didn't do that, I was denying myself
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Speaker 1: what I truly needed, which was self love and self care.
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Speaker 1: And that changed my life in my forties.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I would say I very much identify with your story.
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Speaker 2: My book is all about self love, self care, beginning
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Speaker 2: with self compassion. Why am I doing what I'm doing? Well,
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Speaker 2: of course I was taught this. I was taught in
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Speaker 2: my life, just like you, that you don't take care
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Speaker 2: of your needs. That the way that the world feels
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Speaker 2: better to you as a child is when the people
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Speaker 2: around you are happy, and so you're going to work
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Speaker 2: really hard to take care of them because that gives
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Speaker 2: you a better life. But as you say, it doesn't
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Speaker 2: work when you're an adult. We adults need somebody to
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Speaker 2: take care of us, and it has to be us.
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Speaker 2: And many people take care of themselves by yelling at
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Speaker 2: themselves for what they're doing. But my book is about understanding, Oh,
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Speaker 2: of course this is what I do. How would I
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Speaker 2: do anything else? I say, I was marinated in this
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Speaker 2: This is what taught me how to be. And so,
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Speaker 2: just like your story, you developed health problems. In my story,
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Speaker 2: I developed a terrible weight problem. My whole life, I
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Speaker 2: had a weight problem, and as an adult having children,
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Speaker 2: I had a bad weight problem. And it wasn't until
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Speaker 2: I was in my fifties that I understood that I
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Speaker 2: didn't need to carry this weight around anymore. I could
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Speaker 2: be okay without it. And just like you, you begin
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Speaker 2: to love yourself and take care of yourself and figure
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Speaker 2: out what it is that you really want and need
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Speaker 2: in this life with compassion for the child inside that
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Speaker 2: learned what they learned.
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Speaker 1: How does your background as a clinical social worker and
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Speaker 1: educator your approach in what drives you?
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Speaker 2: So what I know as a clinician is that we
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Speaker 2: all do what we do. We all do life in
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Speaker 2: a very prescribed way that we learned as a child.
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Speaker 2: That's that's just the nature of human learning what we
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Speaker 2: learn as children. I mean, we have so much research
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Speaker 2: to support this now in terms of brainwiring and attachment
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Speaker 2: theory and so and trauma for sure, trauma, trauma is
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Speaker 2: the big thing in there. And so we learn how
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Speaker 2: to be a human. We learn to have certain ways
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Speaker 2: of thinking and certain ways of acting as a human,
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Speaker 2: and as we grow up and become adults, we put
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Speaker 2: those things to little tests by social learning theory. We
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Speaker 2: do what we've automatically done, and then we get a
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Speaker 2: negative result and we think, oh, that didn't really work
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Speaker 2: out for me, I'm going to try something else. But
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Speaker 2: what I have found with the people that I do
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Speaker 2: therapy with is that for many of us, in many ways,
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Speaker 2: we're just not able to stop doing what we've always done,
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Speaker 2: even if we don't like the results of it. It's
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Speaker 2: why people in abusive marriages marry over and over into
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Speaker 2: other abusive marriages, because the hard wiring in our bodies
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Speaker 2: is already there. And I see my job as a
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Speaker 2: therapist to rewire people's brains through our connection, through our relationship.
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Speaker 2: And my job is to help people to see their strengths,
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Speaker 2: to have compassion for their challenges. Is to believe in them,
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Speaker 2: to be hopeful for them, to believe in that people
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Speaker 2: can change, to believe that people deserve to have good things,
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Speaker 2: To believe that none of us there's no such thing
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Speaker 2: as not good enough. There just isn't. It is what
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Speaker 2: it is. How do we make it work. So many
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Speaker 2: people believe that there was some line that they didn't
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Speaker 2: get into when they were created, and so they didn't
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Speaker 2: get enough self esteem, or they didn't get enough this
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Speaker 2: or that or whatever. I use the phrase not good enough,
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Speaker 2: but I often say not fill in the blank enough,
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Speaker 2: whatever it is for that person. There's no such thing
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Speaker 2: as a human who isn't enough. There just isn't. And
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Speaker 2: I really believe that. I really believe that, And so
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Speaker 2: when you are in relationship with me, I'm going to
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Speaker 2: be helping you to feel enough and to understand your
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Speaker 2: challenges and to have thoughtful conversations about what you might
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Speaker 2: want to do differently or why it's hard to do
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Speaker 2: things differently. And we just go slowly, and I'm patient.
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Speaker 2: I don't try to fix people's problems. I try to
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Speaker 2: help people have a good sense of themselves and their strengths,
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Speaker 2: and that they get to that they deserve to have
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Speaker 2: things better in their life and they do it themselves.
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Speaker 2: I don't need to solve their problems. I only need
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Speaker 2: to help them develop a different way of seeing themselves
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Speaker 2: and seeing their problems and then deciding what they want
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Speaker 2: to do. And I'm there to support them.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. My experience and my awakening in my late forties
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Speaker 1: and early fifties led to the creation of a poem
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Speaker 1: called the Healing Power of No. May I share that
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Speaker 1: with you?
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Speaker 2: Please?
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Speaker 1: A time comes for choosing rather than losing the essence
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Speaker 1: that makes us so, and in the bestowing. There's power
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Speaker 1: in knowing the freedom that comes with no. When said
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Speaker 1: with compassion, not angry, in fashion and letting the self
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Speaker 1: love flow, there's a sense of renewing and deep soul,
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Speaker 1: imbuing the awareness that comes with no. So with gentle
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Speaker 1: voice and the power of choice and the courage to
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Speaker 1: make it so, I'm still here, my friends. There's no
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Speaker 1: means in this end, just the healing that comes with nom.
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Speaker 2: That is beautiful. Would you send that to me? I
19:56
Speaker 2: would love to have a copy.
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Speaker 1: Of Absolutely, My pleasure to do so. Please explain how
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Speaker 1: our brain development is influenced by our family dynamics.
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Speaker 2: Right, So, our brains are and I am not a
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Speaker 2: brain specialist. This is brain chemistry from a social worker.
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Speaker 2: But our actual brain wiring is when we are born
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Speaker 2: is not fully formed, and it begins to get formed
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Speaker 2: during our early years. Now I'm going to talk about
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Speaker 2: what I call the human design flaw, and the human
20:39
Speaker 2: design flaw is that when we are little, under the
20:43
Speaker 2: age of five or six years old, we are in
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Speaker 2: a stage of egocentric thinking. All human organisms are in
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Speaker 2: this stage, and for those years when because we are
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Speaker 2: in the stage of egocentric thing thinking, we think that
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Speaker 2: everything in the world around us is because of us.
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Speaker 2: So when we run to mommy and we want something
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Speaker 2: and mommy is having a stomach ache and mommy doesn't
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Speaker 2: respond to us with a smile or a greeting or
21:18
Speaker 2: something positive, we leave that experience feeling not that, oh,
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Speaker 2: maybe something's wrong with mommy, but that we aren't loved.
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Speaker 2: We feel rejected, personally rejected. When we're older, we can
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Speaker 2: discern that mommy, mommy's on the phone with somebody else
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Speaker 2: right now, or mommy's with my sibling right now. But
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Speaker 2: when we're little, for those first five or six years,
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Speaker 2: we only assume it as something bad about us. And
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Speaker 2: that wiring that happens during that time is what's produced
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Speaker 2: from that wiring, which is what we call our core values.
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Speaker 2: Our core hurts, our core beliefs about ourselves and the world.
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Speaker 2: Those beliefs are oftentimes negative towards us and we carry
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Speaker 2: those beliefs to some extent for the rest of our lives.
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Speaker 2: That is a human design flaw, and so our job
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Speaker 2: as adults is to come to understand that we were
22:37
Speaker 2: hardwired to think that we weren't lovable, that we were
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Speaker 2: hardwired to think that we didn't matter, That we were
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Speaker 2: hardwired to think that we didn't get to, we didn't
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Speaker 2: deserve things, and many other negative beliefs that dramatically affect
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Speaker 2: who we become as adults unless we can intentionally do
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Speaker 2: something to change those beliefs. Now, in my car, I
23:11
Speaker 2: developed the belief that I didn't matter. I developed the
23:14
Speaker 2: belief that I wasn't lovable, that I wasn't good enough,
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Speaker 2: But I always had the belief somehow that I got to.
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Speaker 2: My mother used to tell stories that they would go
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Speaker 2: we would go to a restaurant, and the minute we
23:30
Speaker 2: would sit down, I would be out of my seat
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Speaker 2: and making friends with people at other tables, and my
23:39
Speaker 2: family didn't stop me from doing that. So I learned
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Speaker 2: that I got to If I wanted to get up,
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Speaker 2: I could get up, I could go talk to those people,
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Speaker 2: I could make friends with them. And literally my whole
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Speaker 2: life has been about maybe my parents aren't giving it
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Speaker 2: to me, but I get to get it from someplace else.
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Speaker 2: But many of the people I work with the reason
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Speaker 2: why they're stuck in their job isn't because they don't
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Speaker 2: have the skills to improve. It's because somewhere deep inside
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Speaker 2: of them, they don't think they deserve to have it
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Speaker 2: any better. And I have to work with that belief
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Speaker 2: before anything is going to change in their life. And
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Speaker 2: so that is my job to harvest those negative beliefs,
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Speaker 2: to see how they're impacting someone's life, and to help restructure,
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Speaker 2: reward change those beliefs. Even if it's I'm not good enough,
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Speaker 2: sometimes that's a huge change. I'm not good enough at
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Speaker 2: video games. I'm really bad at them. But that doesn't
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Speaker 2: mean that I'm not good enough. It just means that's
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Speaker 2: hard for me. So that's the kind of work I do.
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Speaker 2: It's all based on that early brain wiring and early
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Speaker 2: learning and the beliefs that we leave our family systems with.
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Speaker 1: My guest is Ellen Yoshinsky. Chute hard book is called
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Speaker 1: What Drives You, How our family dynamics shape the people
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Speaker 1: would become. Ellen, please share with our listeners where they
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Speaker 1: can get your book and find out more about you
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Speaker 1: and your work.
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Speaker 2: Yes, so my book is available on Amazon. It's What
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Speaker 2: Drives You. It's available on Amazon or any local bookseller
25:32
Speaker 2: will be able to order it for you. It's a small,
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Speaker 2: eighty SOMEU page little workbook that helps people to understand
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Speaker 2: the metaphor of a car as a family and understand
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Speaker 2: their own role in their car and oftentimes their siblings
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Speaker 2: role in the car, which helps to develop compassion for them.
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Speaker 2: I also have a website site at ellenyshoot dot com
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Speaker 2: and on my website you can see blog posts and
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Speaker 2: some podcasts that I've recorded, so I would encourage you to.
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Speaker 1: Go there and we'll be back with more of Ellum
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Speaker 1: after these words. On the Own Times Radio network.
26:19
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Speaker 1: Back on Box Novus, my guest this week, Ellen Yoshinsky Shoot.
28:50
Speaker 1: Her book is called What Drives You, How our family
28:53
Speaker 1: dynamics shape the people we become. So we talked a
28:57
Speaker 1: little bit about your driving in the car, my driving
28:59
Speaker 1: the car. I have some more examples of how specific
29:02
Speaker 1: family roles and relationships shape the worldview.
29:07
Speaker 2: Yes, so the example I like to give because I
29:12
Speaker 2: think a lot of people of my generation can identify
29:16
Speaker 2: with it. Is. When I was coming up with this
29:19
Speaker 2: car metaphor, I was speaking to my husband, who's also
29:23
Speaker 2: a clinical social worker, by the way, and I asked
29:27
Speaker 2: him where he sat in his car growing up. And
29:32
Speaker 2: my husband is the youngest of five brothers, and the
29:36
Speaker 2: first four were two years apart, and then there was
29:39
Speaker 2: a seven year gap, and then he was born, so
29:43
Speaker 2: the four older brothers were much older than him. And
29:48
Speaker 2: so I asked him where he sat in his car
29:50
Speaker 2: growing up, and he was actually remembering his actual car,
29:56
Speaker 2: and he said, you know, you remember those old stations
30:00
Speaker 2: wagons that had a seat in the way back and
30:03
Speaker 2: the seat faced out the back window of the car.
30:07
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, he said that was my seat. He said,
30:11
Speaker 2: my big brothers were all up in front in the car,
30:14
Speaker 2: and I was alone in the back with nobody paying
30:18
Speaker 2: attention to me, trying to make friends by waving at
30:22
Speaker 2: the people around me in the car. Now, there's so
30:27
Speaker 2: much power in understanding someone's view of their life that way.
30:33
Speaker 2: In my opinion, he understood that he was separated from
30:37
Speaker 2: this clump of four boys. He also understood that he
30:43
Speaker 2: wasn't going to get what he needed from them, and
30:45
Speaker 2: so he began being very friendly and waving and making friends.
30:50
Speaker 2: And I can tell you that if you met my
30:52
Speaker 2: husband today, within two minutes of knowing him, you wouldn't
30:57
Speaker 2: see that little boy in the back seat. Way he
31:01
Speaker 2: still is. Just his energy is toward moving toward people,
31:07
Speaker 2: making friends with them, getting to know them. He knows
31:11
Speaker 2: the waitress at the restaurant we go to all the time,
31:13
Speaker 2: he knows the cashier at the supermarket. He makes friends
31:19
Speaker 2: with anybody who's in his vicinity, for anybody, any length
31:23
Speaker 2: of time, and he's just been wired that way. It's
31:31
Speaker 2: a wonderful trait, and sometimes it's really annoying to be
31:35
Speaker 2: the wife of someone who does that. But people play
31:42
Speaker 2: different roles. I talk about the car that I created
31:46
Speaker 2: as an adult. So I have three children, two girls
31:51
Speaker 2: and then a boy was my youngest, and in their
31:54
Speaker 2: car growing up, which actually was a minivan, and their
32:00
Speaker 2: father sat in the front in the driver's seat. My
32:04
Speaker 2: seat was in the seat next to him in this
32:08
Speaker 2: van the other front seat, only my seat was turned
32:12
Speaker 2: around completely facing the back at all times. Now, that's
32:18
Speaker 2: very powerful. As I tell this story, in the seat
32:21
Speaker 2: behind he is my ex husband at this point, but
32:26
Speaker 2: in the seat behind my father's children sat my oldest daughter.
32:31
Speaker 2: Her role in the car was to be the high
32:35
Speaker 2: achieving one, and this is a very common role, and
32:39
Speaker 2: many families with more than one child have a high
32:43
Speaker 2: achieving one, and she was that since she was little.
32:48
Speaker 2: She would set her goals, she would attain her goals,
32:51
Speaker 2: she would do what she wanted, she would get where
32:54
Speaker 2: she wanted to go. Her whole life has been that way.
32:59
Speaker 2: I refer to her often as me, but without the fear.
33:02
Speaker 2: She just knows what she wants and she goes and
33:05
Speaker 2: gets it and it works out for her. My second daughter,
33:10
Speaker 2: the middle child, her seat in the car was behind me,
33:16
Speaker 2: and my son, whose role in the car was to
33:21
Speaker 2: be the annoying one, sat in the way back of
33:25
Speaker 2: the mini van, and much of the reason that I
33:29
Speaker 2: was turned around in my seat all the time was
33:31
Speaker 2: attending to either him being annoying or his sisters complaining
33:38
Speaker 2: about him being Now, I happen to be very lucky
33:44
Speaker 2: that my adult children all live close to me now
33:47
Speaker 2: and we have dinner together every week on Sunday nights.
33:51
Speaker 2: There's sixteen of us. Yes, sometimes they're not all there.
33:57
Speaker 2: I mean, I have one that's out of college and
33:59
Speaker 2: one that's in college, but all the way down to
34:02
Speaker 2: a four year old. But if you came to my
34:05
Speaker 2: dinner and you watched the interaction at the table, you
34:09
Speaker 2: would see my oldest daughter being the one sort of
34:14
Speaker 2: in charge, and my middle daughter just kind of sitting
34:19
Speaker 2: more quietly, and my son being the funny one. So
34:25
Speaker 2: he's no longer annoying, but he knows how to fill
34:28
Speaker 2: a moment with something funny. He knows how to get
34:32
Speaker 2: the attention that he always did. Our roles really don't change.
34:39
Speaker 2: I've talked to so many hundreds of people about where
34:42
Speaker 2: they sat in their car, and it's such a descriptive thing.
34:48
Speaker 2: Somebody sits on the hump and in their car it
34:51
Speaker 2: was referred to as the stupid hump in the back seat,
34:56
Speaker 2: and that's where they see themselves. And it's an identity
35:01
Speaker 2: that we form based on where we sit in the
35:05
Speaker 2: car and how we make sense of it.
35:07
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your book. What drives you? You created
35:10
Speaker 1: this as a workbook, what was your motivation behind that.
35:15
Speaker 2: My motivation was to provide people with questions and space
35:21
Speaker 2: to write or space to think that I think will
35:27
Speaker 2: help them identify what their role was in the car
35:31
Speaker 2: growing up, and also what the roles were of everybody
35:36
Speaker 2: else in the car, and that's the first step in
35:41
Speaker 2: developing compassion for yourself. I also talk in my book
35:46
Speaker 2: about four different ways that and they're very generalized, but
35:51
Speaker 2: they're pretty specific in the ways that families function. I
35:56
Speaker 2: grew up in a perfect home. That's one of the
35:58
Speaker 2: things I talked about. And in the perfect home, everybody
36:02
Speaker 2: does what they should based on the famili's list of shoulds,
36:07
Speaker 2: and the shoulds are affected by, oh, all kinds of things, class, gender, age, neighborhoods,
36:18
Speaker 2: all those things teach us what we should be doing.
36:22
Speaker 2: And in my family, you just did what you should,
36:27
Speaker 2: and if you did what you should, everything was going
36:29
Speaker 2: to turn out to be just right for you. The
36:33
Speaker 2: problem with doing what you should is that you never
36:36
Speaker 2: learn what you really want or what you would like,
36:40
Speaker 2: or what you think might be wrong with the shoulds.
36:44
Speaker 2: And that's also a lot of work that I do
36:46
Speaker 2: in therapy with people is check on is that really
36:50
Speaker 2: what you want or is that really what you think
36:52
Speaker 2: you should. So the book teaches us different ways that
36:56
Speaker 2: families function. In some families, there rules. These families live
37:02
Speaker 2: from crisis to crisis, They go from day to day.
37:06
Speaker 2: There's no sort of overarching goal setting. The kids in
37:10
Speaker 2: these families really do become independent, often but also without
37:16
Speaker 2: a sense that they matter or that they're lovable. And
37:22
Speaker 2: these families are extremely chaotic. It's very, very common for
37:26
Speaker 2: somebody who grew up in a chaotic family that when
37:31
Speaker 2: they develop their own family, it's either chaotic or it's
37:37
Speaker 2: a should family or what we call the perfect family,
37:40
Speaker 2: because they're going against how they were raised. But the
37:44
Speaker 2: book gives just valuable insights into what goes on in families.
37:50
Speaker 2: For us to look at ourselves, for us to look
37:52
Speaker 2: at our children, for us to look at our siblings,
37:55
Speaker 2: even adult siblings, just to have a deer understanding of
38:01
Speaker 2: who we are and what we grew up with, and
38:06
Speaker 2: just to know those things and have compassion for ourselves.
38:11
Speaker 1: Please share with us some more of these specific exercises
38:15
Speaker 1: or activities that you offer in the book.
38:17
Speaker 2: Yes, so in the beginning, I offer exercises like what
38:23
Speaker 2: do you think the role of each person in your
38:26
Speaker 2: car was? What was your role in your family? Did
38:30
Speaker 2: you have a label? If so, what was it? I
38:34
Speaker 2: was the blank one, describe the roles and labels of
38:39
Speaker 2: the other members of your family. In what ways do
38:42
Speaker 2: you still conform to your family role? In what ways
38:46
Speaker 2: did you or do you intentionally choose not to. If
38:51
Speaker 2: you created your own family as an adult, what are
38:53
Speaker 2: the roles of each member there? So this gets people
38:57
Speaker 2: used to thinking about Sis's thinking and how the system
39:02
Speaker 2: needs everybody to play their role in order for the
39:06
Speaker 2: system to keep going. So I always say, the car
39:10
Speaker 2: needs everybody to be in their role in other for
39:14
Speaker 2: the in order for the car to drive us from
39:17
Speaker 2: today to tomorrow to the next day.
39:20
Speaker 1: How may readers apply the insights gained from what drives
39:24
Speaker 1: you in their daily lives?
39:26
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Well, I don't have account of that
39:30
Speaker 2: from the book, but I can tell you I have
39:33
Speaker 2: account of that from my work with people. And there
39:38
Speaker 2: isn't anybody that I have shared this concept with that
39:42
Speaker 2: has not benefited from it in their daily life. No one.
39:46
Speaker 1: And can you provide some examples of success stories or
39:49
Speaker 1: personal transformations resulting from using this workbook?
39:54
Speaker 2: Yes, I certainly can. So. I have worked with a
39:59
Speaker 2: person and who has three adult children. She grew up
40:06
Speaker 2: in what we would refer to as a very immeshed home,
40:12
Speaker 2: which is closer than close knit, and in meshed home
40:16
Speaker 2: is where we need each other so badly that we
40:20
Speaker 2: just sort of conform to what other people need, basically.
40:24
Speaker 2: And she grew up in a home like that, and
40:26
Speaker 2: now her children are young adults and they are at
40:32
Speaker 2: a place where they're sort of trying out things in
40:36
Speaker 2: the world for themselves, and my client is was having
40:43
Speaker 2: a very hard time with being there to be supportive
40:49
Speaker 2: but not overdoing it. So she was actually trying to
40:54
Speaker 2: prevent her kids from having any problems, prevent them from
41:00
Speaker 2: failing at something and learning from that. And what ensued
41:06
Speaker 2: in that is that she has three kids that were
41:09
Speaker 2: really really struggling to be off on their own. They
41:14
Speaker 2: were struggling to know what they wanted to do in
41:17
Speaker 2: their life or where they wanted to go in their life.
41:20
Speaker 2: And one of the kids was having serious problems with
41:24
Speaker 2: drugs and alcohol. And she was extremely extremely involved in
41:29
Speaker 2: this because she learned in her car that that's what
41:33
Speaker 2: you do, you just stay really tight, over involved. And
41:38
Speaker 2: so we did a lot of work about her original
41:41
Speaker 2: car and about the good parts of it and the
41:45
Speaker 2: parts of it that may have given her some things
41:49
Speaker 2: that aren't serving her anymore. And I have watched as
41:55
Speaker 2: little by little by little she has let these kids
42:00
Speaker 2: learn about life and not feel like she needs to
42:04
Speaker 2: step in and try to protect protect them from that,
42:08
Speaker 2: and that is just huge. It's really huge for someone
42:14
Speaker 2: to change the way that they view their role as
42:17
Speaker 2: a mother as not doing it for them, not preventing
42:24
Speaker 2: their hurt, but being alongside them and encouraging them when
42:29
Speaker 2: they do get hurt and letting them know that they
42:32
Speaker 2: can try again, that they can continue. So that's just
42:37
Speaker 2: the story on the top of my head.
42:39
Speaker 1: And how to family dynamics influence our approach to personal relationships.
42:45
Speaker 2: Oh boy, that's going to take longer than the time
42:49
Speaker 2: I have right now. I do a lot of marriage
42:52
Speaker 2: counseling and family counseling, and I can tell you that
42:56
Speaker 2: what we learn in our cars is the most apparent
43:01
Speaker 2: in our family relationships. It just is. And the reason
43:08
Speaker 2: there's many reasons why those old things that we learned
43:12
Speaker 2: don't work, but primarily because families in the fifties are
43:18
Speaker 2: very different than families now, different and our children need
43:23
Speaker 2: very different things than we might have needed at that
43:27
Speaker 2: time when we were growing up and so the goal
43:31
Speaker 2: is not to either do what you learned or do
43:36
Speaker 2: the opposite of what you learned. The goal is to
43:39
Speaker 2: really be in touch with your children and find out
43:43
Speaker 2: from them what they need and how you could be helpful,
43:48
Speaker 2: rather than thinking you know and just imposing that on
43:52
Speaker 2: you as a parent, as a grandparent, as a wife.
43:58
Speaker 2: I have had to come face to face with my
44:02
Speaker 2: issues of not feeling good enough, of not feeling like
44:06
Speaker 2: I have a voice, of not feeling like I have
44:11
Speaker 2: power in relationships. I have had to work through those. Really,
44:17
Speaker 2: that's been the work of my lifetime, is to work
44:21
Speaker 2: through those things in order to be the person that
44:25
Speaker 2: I am today, for my husband, for my children and grandchildren.
44:31
Speaker 2: A little bit of wisdom that you only get after
44:35
Speaker 2: a certain point doesn't hurt there either.
44:38
Speaker 1: Absolutely. My guest Ellen Yoshinsky shoot her book is called
44:42
Speaker 1: What Drives You, How our family dynamics shape the people
44:45
Speaker 1: we become. We'll be back with more after these words
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Speaker 1: on the Own Times Radio network.
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47:35
Speaker 1: Back on box Novus. My guest this week, Ellen Yoshinsky Shoot.
47:40
Speaker 1: Our book is called What Drives You? How our family
47:43
Speaker 1: dynamics shape the people that we become. Ellen, in your experience,
47:47
Speaker 1: what are some common misconceptions that people have about the
47:51
Speaker 1: influence of family dynamics on their personal identity people?
47:56
Speaker 2: Most people deny that there was any influence. I think
48:01
Speaker 2: people also don't really understand how in a marriage, for example,
48:09
Speaker 2: how what I learned in my family is playing out
48:15
Speaker 2: every day in my marriage. And by that, what I
48:19
Speaker 2: mean is that I need my husband to be a
48:24
Speaker 2: certain way in order to make me feel comfortable. And
48:30
Speaker 2: the way that I need him to be all comes
48:32
Speaker 2: from my family of origin. I had a screaming, kind
48:38
Speaker 2: of very sarcastic and mother and whenever. So I need
48:45
Speaker 2: to be married to someone who who doesn't really get
48:48
Speaker 2: that tone in their voice, because when they when he
48:51
Speaker 2: does get that tone in his voice, I back away.
48:56
Speaker 2: I shrink up to nothing. Now, all marriages are a
49:03
Speaker 2: combination of both people's family dynamics, whether they're aware of
49:07
Speaker 2: them or not. And so I just believe that it's
49:11
Speaker 2: really helpful for people to understand what they need and
49:16
Speaker 2: why they need it and be able to be open
49:19
Speaker 2: about those things in their family relationships.
49:23
Speaker 1: For sure, what advice would you give to individuals who
49:27
Speaker 1: may be struggling with accepting or appreciating their unique selves.
49:33
Speaker 2: My advice is is that everything is exactly the way
49:37
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be, and you definitely get to be
49:42
Speaker 2: struggling with it. When I'm working with clients, I say
49:46
Speaker 2: to them, you don't need to know this yet, but
49:49
Speaker 2: I know you, and I can tell you things about
49:53
Speaker 2: yourself that are part of you, and it's just you.
50:00
Speaker 2: There's no right around it, there's no right or wrong
50:04
Speaker 2: about it. It's just who you are. And the more
50:08
Speaker 2: we know and embrace who we are, the more control
50:13
Speaker 2: we will have over how we act that out.
50:18
Speaker 1: And you've shared a couple of your memorable onecdotes or
50:22
Speaker 1: experiences from your own journey of understanding family dynamics, do
50:26
Speaker 1: you have another one you can share with us?
50:28
Speaker 2: Sure? So I would share. I would share something that
50:35
Speaker 2: just happened on Thanksgiving. I think that's a good that
50:39
Speaker 2: would be a good depiction. So there's me and my husband,
50:43
Speaker 2: there's my three adult children and their children, my grandchildren,
50:49
Speaker 2: and we have a couple of in laws mixed in there.
50:53
Speaker 2: And we do Thanksgiving different in our house, different than
50:59
Speaker 2: most people in that we have the Thanksgiving meal at
51:02
Speaker 2: lunchtime and it's very casual and we all take a plate.
51:08
Speaker 2: And being in Detroit, there's always a Thanksgiving Day Lions
51:14
Speaker 2: football game on, and we grab a plate. We graze
51:18
Speaker 2: all day, and we sit and watch the football game together.
51:22
Speaker 2: And so a really interesting thing that I can tell
51:27
Speaker 2: you that happened is is that this the last game
51:31
Speaker 2: that we watched, happened to be a very close, tight game,
51:38
Speaker 2: and I just for a moment looked around and all
51:43
Speaker 2: of us were in this position of it was like
51:47
Speaker 2: we were the team on the other side of the screen.
51:52
Speaker 2: If somebody would have taken a picture of that, I
51:55
Speaker 2: wish somebody would have, but we would never have been
51:57
Speaker 2: able to duplicate it. But it was just all of
52:02
Speaker 2: us in this place watching this same thing, being very
52:06
Speaker 2: involved in the same thing, and then all of a sudden,
52:14
Speaker 2: the littlest one starts just clapping and everybody was clapping
52:21
Speaker 2: with him, and it was just it was just a
52:26
Speaker 2: special thing that there were no words spoken, We were
52:30
Speaker 2: all just involved in this as this large family unit
52:35
Speaker 2: that would just never have happened in my family growing up.
52:39
Speaker 2: Never And so for me to have that moment, because
52:45
Speaker 2: I've worked really hard on myself to create it, to
52:50
Speaker 2: be open and be present as much as I could,
52:53
Speaker 2: and without overbearing, without with every letting everybody be who
52:59
Speaker 2: they are, it was a very special thing for me.
53:04
Speaker 1: Beautiful, Thank you for sharing that.
53:06
Speaker 2: Thank you.
53:07
Speaker 1: Just recently Australia placed restrictions on social media for children
53:12
Speaker 1: under the age of sixteen. From your experience, do you
53:16
Speaker 1: see social media as a detriment to children and should
53:19
Speaker 1: parents put restrictions on them?
53:23
Speaker 2: So here's my reply about social media video games. When
53:29
Speaker 2: we believe that what's wrong is something outside of us,
53:33
Speaker 2: we lose our power. I believe that children can manage
53:40
Speaker 2: everything if they have parents who are interested, who are
53:46
Speaker 2: there with them, who they go to when they see
53:50
Speaker 2: something bad on social media, who have parents who are involved,
53:58
Speaker 2: who they pross us their days with. That, in my opinion,
54:04
Speaker 2: is the problem. If social media is your child's babysitter
54:08
Speaker 2: at any age, and you don't know what they're looking at,
54:12
Speaker 2: or talk to them about what they're looking at, or
54:15
Speaker 2: dispute some of the things they read. That is the problem.
54:20
Speaker 2: There's always going to be something outside of us that
54:25
Speaker 2: can present major problems.
54:28
Speaker 1: So communication and taking interest in everything that your child does.
54:32
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And I would say most people think, oh, yeah,
54:38
Speaker 2: you know, when they're eight years old, I can do that,
54:40
Speaker 2: But I would say that's the most important when your
54:44
Speaker 2: kids are teenagers.
54:46
Speaker 1: Absolutely. What do you hope that readers will take away
54:49
Speaker 1: from what drives you? And how can it positively impact
54:52
Speaker 1: their lives?
54:55
Speaker 2: I hope that people will have more compassion for themselves
54:58
Speaker 2: and each other and reduce fighting, and reduce hatred, and
55:04
Speaker 2: reduce other ring and see people as humans that are
55:09
Speaker 2: just including yourself, that are just trying their best to
55:13
Speaker 2: make this very very hard life work for them.
55:17
Speaker 1: Absolutely, in you, I see me and in me I
55:20
Speaker 1: see you.
55:21
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
55:22
Speaker 1: One my guest, Ellen Yshinski shoot her book is called
55:26
Speaker 1: What Drives You How our family dynamics shape the people
55:30
Speaker 1: we become. Ellen, one more time, please share with our
55:33
Speaker 1: listeners where they can get your book and find out
55:35
Speaker 1: more about you and your wonderful work.
55:37
Speaker 2: Yes, my book is available on Amazon or through any
55:41
Speaker 2: of your local booksellers. And I do have a website
55:45
Speaker 2: at elleny shoot Chute dot com and there you can
55:52
Speaker 2: you can order my book. There you can also see
55:56
Speaker 2: blog posts and I have some podcast episodes that are
56:01
Speaker 2: there too, Ellen.
56:03
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing this
56:05
Speaker 1: wonderful message.
56:06
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Victor, I really
56:09
Speaker 2: really appreciate.
56:10
Speaker 1: It, and thank you for joining us on Vox Novus.
56:13
Speaker 1: I'm Victor the Voice Firman. Have a wonderful week.