Latest / Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between / 성공? 쉬어야 된다! Neuroscience Meets Real Life: How Your Brain Shapes Everything You Do, Think, and Say

Transcript

성공? 쉬어야 된다! Neuroscience Meets Real Life: How Your Brain Shapes Everything You Do, Think, and Say · Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between

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  My research at Emory and Georgia Tech has showed that its
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  opposite is actually the pauses in activity is what's really
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  important for our memory and behavior because what we found
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  is that when we start to be quiet, that makes it necessary
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  for forming new memories. So this is what's been
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  discovered recently and what was published in Nature back in
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  April of this year. Wow, that's really fascinating.
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  When we pause, that's when the brain is most active.
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  Is that why we need? To rest, well, that's a great
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  example. It's.
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  Great to have you here Doctor Nuri Chung Chung.
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  Nuri Paksenyum is a neuroscientist specializing in
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  goal oriented learning and memory.
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  She created a SEE Think Act Neuroscience based workshop.
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  Thank you for being here, Doctor Chung.
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  Thank you ma'am for having me and so excited to be here.
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  As I was preparing for this interview, I'm like, what do I
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  even ask out of the anything about neuroscience?
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  Why don't we start there? Can you breakdown neuroscience
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  so that a 10 year old could understand?
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  Neuroscience is the study of how the brain might think, behave,
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  and makes sense about the world that we live in.
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  And so thinking about how do we set goals, how do we get to our
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  goals? How do we interact with others?
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  How do we remember things? Why are we the same personality
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  that we are? You know, all those questions
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  that are really interesting and looked at from the perspective
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  of how does the brain process all these information and then
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  brings it out to the world. I could imagine when people hear
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  Yuri, she's a neuroscientist. Do people like outside of your
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  community? Do people wow, OK, good.
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  And then do they walk away because they don't know what to
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  say? I think there's a lot of
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  perception that people think that scientists, especially
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  neuroscientists, are like, so smart and you can't approach
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  them. I'm trying not to show that at
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  all because there's no clear correlation between intelligence
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  and the ability to study some concepts that relate to
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  neuroscience. Some of the things that people
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  mention is like in my neurologist, people immediately
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  go like, do I do like brain surgeries and things?
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  And but I'm also very excited that I get to be the one to talk
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  about how neuroscience is so relatable and something that can
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  be understood by everyday people.
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  How did you get into neuroscience?
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  Why Neuroscience? Great question.
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  I think I actually fell into my lab is always what I started
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  with because, you know, the brain is so awesome that it's
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  that this the most amazing 3 LB organ in the in the body.
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  But what got me interested in neuroscience as a field, as a
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  study was I worked in the lab at Columbia after I graduated from
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  undergrad and I had the opportunity to study how the
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  dopamine system works in the context of schizophrenia and
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  especially a motivation. How do we stay motivated, right?
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  And what was really fascinating to me is that I was measuring
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  the real time dopamine release in the mouse brain while they
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  are moving around and performing tasks and doing these amazing
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  work. And you can actually correlate
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  that what's happening in the brain directly to what's
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  happening in the real life. And I was like, wow, this, the
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  fact that it's possible, it's amazing.
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  You can see the immediate response to dopamine levels
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  going up and down when the mouse is eating cookie.
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  And so I got hooked into that. And then grad school, you know,
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  thinking about how does, how do we form memories that are
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  important for our goals? Because I think that's, that's
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  kind of the fundamental part of how do we learn anything new,
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  right? And then to, you know, if we can
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  find a way to treat neurodegenerative diseases like
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  Alzheimer's disease, my family members that have affected by
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  the disease and I know a lot of people are affected by that.
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  And how can we use that information to treat diseases
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  for learning disability or other and neural disorders that that
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  affect memory and learning? So have you, What is the most
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  exciting thing that you feel to have discovered regarding
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  learning and memory? I would love to talk about my
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  work. That's one of my favorite topics
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  in my life. So, you know, the way that
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  people have been thinking about how the brain works is that, you
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  know, when something is remembered or something is
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  functional, the brain is actually active.
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  But my research at Emory and Georgia Tech has showed that its
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  opposite. It's actually the pauses in
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  activity is what's really important for our memory and
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  behavior because what we found is that it's when we start to
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  become quiet, and that makes it necessary for forming new
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  memories. Yeah.
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  So this is what's been discovered recently and what was
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  published in Nature back in April of this year.
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  Wow, my gosh, that's really fascinating.
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  When we pause, that's when the brain is most active.
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  Wow, that's really fascinating. Is that why we need to rest?
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  So that's a great example. So a year before I graduated, I
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  was run over by SUV and I had a, my leg was shattered and I, you
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  know, had to get surgery and hospitalized.
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  We could have moved for several months.
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  Never broken a bone in my life, never been hospitalized.
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  I've always been healthy. And this event really set me
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  back, you know, in the business time of my career.
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  And so most people would think that this is such a negative
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  step back because I was laid right the, the dislocation
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  writing, the PhD writing. And even though it was painful
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  and was sometimes stressful, what made me realize is that
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  this pause in career really helped me focus on what's really
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  meaningful to me and set me on a path to entrepreneurship.
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  So it's I was no longer thinking about solely just career.
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  I'm having a good life, job, life, but thinking about my
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  personal joy, my personal time with my family members, my my
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  relationships to take care of my health, something that I hadn't
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  been considering for so long that it's been kind of put it
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  back in the back of my mind. While you're focused on
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  something as important at the time, I thought as my PhD
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  project. But if that's the only thing
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  that you're focused on and nothing else at the cost of
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  everything else in your life, then that might be really
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  difficult to find satisfaction and joy in every day.
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  It's the perfect analogy because what most people think, a pause
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  in a career, a pause and some activities, activity, some
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  action, you know, I'm doing something is actually a negative
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  thing. But actually that's what gets us
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  to focus. It puts all our resources, our
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  attention, which is really limited, into something that's
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  truly meaningful and that's most important.
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  Wow, I could understand that part emotionally because we do
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  take vacations, we go to retreats, we rest and we shut
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  down and give, have a self-care time.
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  All those things, right? They're considered a pause or a
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  rest. OK, so I understand that
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  emotionally, how does the brain work?
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  So what I didn't mention is that I was studying a specific part
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  of a brain region that's important for learning and
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  memory. But within that region called
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  type of campus, the memory center, they're in big ways 2
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  separate types of neurons, the brain cells 1 is what gets
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  excited and the other is what suppresses the activity of other
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  neurons. And so this inhibitory, the
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  suppressive kind is the one that I focused because these are the
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  neurons that are really important in so many different
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  types of diseases like Alzheimer's.
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  But what we found is that these neurons, these suppressive type
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  get quiet. They don't get too active at
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  particular locations. So for example, if a mouse
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  realized that when you go here, this is where we can get food,
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  they remember that the neurons get quiet at that particular
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  location. And then that's what's required
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  for that mouse to remember and to go back to it.
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  So just remember like, you know, if you go to a mute to city for
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  vacation and you know, this restaurant was so awesome, like
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  I want to come back to it, right?
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  How do you remember that in the brain?
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  That's what's happening. The inner neurons, the inhibitor
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  neurons in the brain are actually becoming quiet at that
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  location so that you can remember it.
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  Like all our mental focus energy is on today, that particular
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  information that we want to remember.
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  That's really interesting. That's really fascinating.
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  So it does make sense when people say, OK, take, take rest,
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  quiet down and turn everything off.
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  That's that makes sense, right? Because that's when our brain
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  works to create this space. Exactly.
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  And that that finding that little space is so critical
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  because we are giving us the time and the kindness that we
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  need to reevaluate our priorities.
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  Most people just go through life without thinking about, am I
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  focused on the right thing? Am I doing the right thing?
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  And sometimes, you know, when we just kind of take a step back
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  and pause and think about the full picture, like what is the
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  impact that we're trying to create here and how can I get
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  there? It's fascinating how there's a
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  number of experimental studies that I can talk about and talk
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  about why it's so important to see the bigger picture picture
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  and set a goal that's ahead of you so that the brain can figure
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  out how to get there in the best and most efficient way possible.
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  Is it does, is it natural for brain to figure that out or is
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  it something that was emotionally, I feel like I have
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  to be in that place of pause and think about, OK, what is
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  important to me, how do I want to impact?
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  But is this? Is it a natural phenomenon in
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  the brain? So I started this in this exact
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  thing in the context of navigation, spatial navigation.
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  So how do we find our way to from A to, to be right?
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  And, you know, right now we are using so much of the GPS, but
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  the brain is naturally able to do this, you know, figure out
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  how to create a map, the entire map of where we are in space,
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  and then figure out how to get to the right location in the
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  most efficient way. And so the more we practice, how
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  do we do that naturally? And the less we rely on this
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  GPS, we'll probably be more better at navigating different
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  routes and coming up with better ways to get there.
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  But one thing that is interesting saying is when we
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  have a specific goal, the destination that we have in set
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  in mind, no matter how far it is, the brain is always going to
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  go to that direction. So we can it can help with the
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  directionality. And so instead of going away
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  from that like the wrong way, we're always thinking about ways
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  to get to that way. So even if we don't know exactly
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  where you're headed in your life.
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  And I talked to a lot of people who are in their early career,
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  early stage, their career and students who tell me they're so
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  scared that they're making the right decision as far as their,
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  their majors, their first job titles and all of that.
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  And I always tell them, you know, job titles are something
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  to be obsessed over because in the next 5 years, 50% of the
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  jobs as we know are going to disappear and AI is going to
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  completely change the way we let them work.
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  And that's one of the reasons why we can't just obsess over
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  the titles, except especially instead what we should do is
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  what kind of impact would I like to make?
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  And that's the, the bigger goal and that's the direction that we
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  are headed. And then we can figure out the
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  nitty gritty details of the plans of the methods to, to find
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  a way to get there. The the reason why I started the
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  goals on hinder it is because I want people to be empowered in
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  how much control they have on their own life and be able to
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  plan things out. I think motivation is starts
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  with, you know, being able to see what you want and then that
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  generates the almost incentive, like the emotional incentive for
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  you to start heading towards that.
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  What if your brain is not as functional as or good engine as
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  other people's brains? People talk about Iqs all the
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  time right? If I have a 56 IQ and somebody
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  my next door neighbor has 156 IQ, would this work?
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  I mean is it same engine? You know, first of all, IQ is
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  not the the measurement that people should focus on.
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  It really is relevant in terms of being able to achieve what we
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  want. It has nothing to do with the
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  intelligence, nothing to do with for creativity, nothing to do
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  with the way we can compare ourselves to another person who
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  may be superior quote UN quote. Because the way the study is
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  designed, the average is 100. So if you look at from 10/20/30
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  years ago, the IQ levels like the person with a level of 100
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  and compare that to today's person with an IQ of 100, it's
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  massively different. What makes somebody a better
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  with a better brain? I think that needs to be defined
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  a little bit. I think what's really important
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  in the day of artificial intelligence now is the ability
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  to think and see something that other people might not.
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  Because when you can see something, you can start to
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  think about how we can get to that idealized image and then we
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  can create options and strategize.
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  We can plan ahead, whereas if you can't even see something and
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  we're just receiving whatever the output that tax certificate
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  gives you and we're relying on it, then we're almost losing the
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  the rights to our own ability to think and question.
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  And I think that's where it becomes a difficult thing for
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  living with AI. But the human creativity is
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  something that I believe can be trained, can be taught, and can
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  be harnessed because everybody has a very unique perspective
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  that they can look at the same problem in a very different life
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  and then come up with a very different type of solution that
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  other people might not have. No matter how much we think that
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  we are not enough, not smart enough, not pretty enough, not
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  whatever enough, there is always a unique perspective that we can
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  own. It's something that you always
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  going to have that only you can do, only you can think.
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  So yeah, I'm all about all for people who are taking their own
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  path and creating their path their.
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  Own. It's really encouraging.
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  Absolutely. I think we kind of just to add a
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  little bit, a lot of people think that, you know, there's a
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  specific learning styles and there's a have a level to the
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  ability like we're trying to measure always the child's
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  capability or the intelligence or we're trying to quantify
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  that. And there's almost an obsession
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  for diagnosing for our kids or categorizing our kids to be a
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  certain box. And all we can do is, you know,
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  help the child to realize what they own and really own it.
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  Really, really be take ownership of their own life and their path
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  and their actions and be beautiful in their own elements.
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  That's so true. Thank you for saying that.
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  Well, talk about not being enough or feeling like not being
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  enough, right? Growing up in America, you moved
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  here as a teenager by yourself. You're like you oxen.
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  So how did that impact you in any way?
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  Have you ever struggled with that feeling?
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  I don't think nobody could be saying I've never had a problem,
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  never struggled. For me, My first year of the US
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  experience, I was 15. I hadn't turned 16, Sweet 16
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  yet. My family has never been to the
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  US, has actually never been abroad before me.
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  And so, yeah, it was actually my second flight that I ever taken.
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  The first one was to Jeju Island from my city.
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  And then the second one was like a 18 hour flight to the USI know
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  and and I didn't know anybody. I didn't have anybody.
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  I was lucky enough to meet people who were my host mom, my
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  friends that I got to meet, the mentors that I got to connect
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  with over the years. I am very grateful that I was
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  within those people in my, in my place.
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  And I think one of the biggest challenges I had was the
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  identity crisis that some people may have gone through,
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  especially as an international student, and especially when
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  you're coming as a teenager, you've had half of your life at
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  the time, you know, obviously I was Korean and then now I'm,
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  I've spent almost equally half my time in the, in the US and as
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  well as Korea. I think that's the identity idea
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  of identity has been evolving over the years, realizing, you
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  know, not fitting in anywhere, being in the US, being the one
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  of the only people from Korea in my school.
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  But going back to Korea the year after and realizing about the
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  system is very different. The way people think about live,
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  go about their ways is a bit different.
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  And where am I going to give myself the best opportunity, the
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  best chance at and doing something that I want to do?
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  So the identity crisis is different because I didn't feel
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  like I was Korean enough, but also wasn't American enough.
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  And then now I have a question like, what is even American?
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  Like? When do you become a Korean
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  American? Right.
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  And so and now I realized I was like, OK, well, I'm just going
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  to be my own person. It doesn't have to be a
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  particular box that I took it in.
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  You know, some people even talk about the concept of third
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  culture and this culture that's, you know, separate from where
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  you're native, where you're born in versus where you're living
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  now. But now it's holding up their
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  separate third culture. I think, if I may, the reason
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  why people like are obsessed over these titles and these
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  terms and concepts is because the need to categorize ourselves
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  and if we could just not label ourselves tells us as
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  particularly Korean, American, Asian, you know, whatever woman,
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  right? All these things.
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  Maybe we could be more free from the expectations that society
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  expects us to be like. And maybe we can be our own
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  person and be more creative and we know what we could be and
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  really fully utilize our own potential.
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  What goes through a 15 year old mind when you decide to come to
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  the US by yourself? I was really excited.
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  Honestly, I was very, very excited my first year.
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  I think I was just so excited how lucky I was.
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  That sort of openness really opened my eyes to what I could
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  be opposed to. You know, I'm good at English
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  and I'm good at history, so let's go into pun gua not equal.
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  The world of neuroscience. Thank you for making the
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  decision. Let's talk a little bit about
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  your work that you're currently doing your business.
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  See think ACT workshop. What is that?
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  Tell us. Yeah, so I'm really excited
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  because I mean, one of the things I was frustrated by in PC
• 18:36
  is how slow the the progress is as far as getting the the
• 18:40
  knowledge that's very new and fresh into the public world,
• 18:45
  right? How can I get this new insight
• 18:47
  into day-to-day people and get them to, you know, utilize?
• 18:52
  I mean, like when you think about it, a lot of the research
• 18:54
  is funded by public tax money. So those people should have
• 18:58
  access to all those things. But the way academic writing is,
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  it's very hard to understand the OK, So what what can I do with
• 19:05
  that kind of information? Right.
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  So I wanted to choose a path where I could help translate
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  that tough science into something more practical and
• 19:13
  tips and see think that is actually kind of stem from, you
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  know, the importance of understanding different people's
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  perspectives because we want to make it more accessible.
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  For example, if we're talking about scientific projects, how
• 19:29
  can I, how can I increase my own impact with my project is
• 19:32
  through understanding how the general public or the funding
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  committee or the investor potentially is looking at your
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  project and then being able to reframe it in a way that makes
• 19:43
  sense to the audience. And so that was one of the first
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  things I've done is creating a workshops to help scientists and
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  PhD post doc level scientists to learn how to reframe what they,
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  what they've been working on. Because most people are just
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  only in their their projects and those details only the academic
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  community would care about and not communicating in a way that.
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  Makes sense to the rest of us. Yeah, yeah.
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  So helping them translate that research was one thing, but
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  going forward, what I turned and is OK, well, there's so many
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  people who are also doing business like entrepreneurs, for
• 20:16
  example, small business owners. We all care about, you know,
• 20:20
  contextualizing our product and storytelling our products so
• 20:23
  that it makes sense to our customers, our clients.
• 20:27
  That's a very different question that you're asking about the
• 20:29
  direction of the, the company overarching goals, not just the,
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  so the, you know, how can we use, how can we make it AI
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  powered, these features that use AI so that we can, we can be the
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  rest, you know, competitive, like what's the best?
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  I think there's a lot of opportunities with AI and what
• 20:46
  capability it provides, but we should always think about what
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  is the overarching goal? What is the problem we're trying
• 20:52
  to solve? What business are we in?
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  And then and then start to think about, OK, how do we get there
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  in the most strategic way? Yeah, it's a it's a big process.
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  Just say that the most important thing in the beginning is asking
• 21:04
  the right question. So I think the first thing is
• 21:06
  the perception understanding that that's why the CS first is
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  because we have to understand that there are different ways of
• 21:13
  looking at the same problem. Without that underlying
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  understanding, and without understanding how other people
• 21:19
  see the same problem, even if you're asking the right
• 21:23
  questions, might not really understand their priorities,
• 21:27
  their goals, and whether we align on that.
• 21:29
  I'm listening to you and thinking about my podcasts here
• 21:32
  and trying to plug in my ideas of see, think, and act.
• 21:36
  I'm realizing I'm only really thinking about my own
• 21:40
  perspective and how I see this. But I also need to consider how
• 21:45
  others might view or perceive this channel, right?
• 21:50
  Is that how I could apply? Yes, that's exactly.
• 21:54
  Everybody's talking about storytelling these days, and I'm
• 21:57
  thinking in terms of emotions and psychology, that the stories
• 22:02
  really impact us more deeply and make that connection to the
• 22:06
  storyteller and myself. Is that how it works in the
• 22:10
  brain as well? People know that stories are
• 22:12
  really easily remembered and I think there are four big reasons
• 22:17
  why somebody might remember your story. 1 is because it's so
• 22:20
  unexpected and it's new, it's fresh.
• 22:22
  The second thing is because obviously it just stands out.
• 22:25
  You know, keeping attention is really important.
• 22:27
  Third thing is about emotional. Emotional, like it engages our
• 22:31
  emotions deeply because it creates A turmoil or it creates
• 22:36
  a really deep desires that makes us really remember whatever the
• 22:41
  thing that we're looking at. The final thing is how relevant
• 22:45
  is it to my goal, right? And this is how we brain it in a
• 22:48
  way that we're really speaking to the customers desires and
• 22:51
  needs and what their goals are. So we focus on that versus
• 22:56
  something that nobody will care about.
• 22:58
  My mind is getting dull, cannot remember things, cannot think of
• 23:03
  words, couldn't figure out numbers, things like that.
• 23:07
  A lot of people get worried that whether they can't remember
• 23:10
  whether put their car keys or, you know, we're walking to a
• 23:12
  room like, I don't know what I came here for.
• 23:14
  You know, when you remember, like when you forget to do
• 23:16
  things or forget the names of the people or what have you,
• 23:19
  they're worried that they have like, is this the early signs of
• 23:22
  Alzheimer's dementia, right. But those things, you know,
• 23:26
  noticing those things is important because, you know,
• 23:29
  first of all, you should get definitely get tested, you know,
• 23:32
  to get the right medical advice for it.
• 23:34
  But second may not be anything to do with your degenerative
• 23:37
  generation that's happening in your in your brain is more like
• 23:40
  lack of attention that you are able to pay attention to the
• 23:43
  things that you actually want to remember.
• 23:45
  So, for example, the notifications that we always get
• 23:48
  from my phone, from emails, there's just so many things to
• 23:51
  pay attention to grab our attention, right?
• 23:54
  And our attention is so, you know, segregated and, and and
• 23:57
  distracted that we are not able to focus our full energy and,
• 24:02
  and attention and resources on the right things.
• 24:04
  There's somebody who mentioned, I think it might have been Mel
• 24:08
  Robbins. She mentioned that she had a
• 24:09
  great idea. It's like, you know, if you're
• 24:11
  trying to remember something really, really important, like,
• 24:13
  like, you know, car keys, like actually create.
• 24:16
  I get literally really crazy emojis in your in your head,
• 24:20
  like as you're dropping, like dropping it on a table, like
• 24:24
  Bam, there's a fire, right? Like thinking about the imagery
• 24:27
  of things that you know, it's just all out of the blue that
• 24:30
  you can actually remember. You make it very different and
• 24:32
  it captures your attention. And so there's certain things
• 24:35
  that you can do certain tricks, but I think ultimately what's
• 24:38
  really important is the first of all, you have to know what
• 24:42
  priorities are right? And putting the time that is
• 24:45
  prioritizing your time for the type of information that you,
• 24:49
  you want to remember your family's details, like plans or
• 24:56
  your projects, actually prioritizing and, and, you know,
• 24:58
  shutting off all the screen, you know, notifications need the
• 25:01
  time that you're trying to have this conversation, for example.
• 25:04
  And then the second, second and third is really boring advice,
• 25:07
  but good sleep and exercise and diet.
• 25:10
  I mean, these are things that I like.
• 25:11
  No, I, I can't tell you how many people are like disappointed you
• 25:15
  got to sleep. Well, it's one of those things
• 25:17
  that, you know, there's a such thing as a pill for everything.
• 25:20
  Every disease is sleep. And not just any sleep, but a
• 25:23
  good quality sleep every night because without that and the
• 25:27
  right with nutrients in the brain and the body, it's, it's
• 25:31
  hard to generate the energy that you need for the things that you
• 25:35
  care about. So yeah, we're definitely the
• 25:38
  boring advice is the healthy lifestyles and sleep like diet,
• 25:44
  exercise, that kind of thing. Managing our stress is another
• 25:47
  thing. Stress is, you know, something
• 25:49
  that it's hard to see by eye and so people don't realize how much
• 25:53
  is affecting us. But mentally, physically, stress
• 25:57
  is definitely affecting a lot of our lives.
• 25:59
  And so now we're just starting to see how tremendous impact
• 26:03
  that it has on our brain functions.
• 26:05
  And so knowing how to either minimize, manage stress levels
• 26:10
  in your life is so important. Prevent it if possible, but if
• 26:14
  it's not possible to at least manage it.
• 26:17
  But with daily activities like meditation, people talk about
• 26:20
  reading, yoga and sort of that thing, but also keeping the mind
• 26:24
  sharp. I think besides the having the
• 26:26
  right nutrients, the right resources and being able to
• 26:28
  prioritize your time for it is I think also doing something
• 26:32
  creative. And I like to, I know, Full
• 26:39
  disclosure, I don't have like I'm not prioritizing enough time
• 26:42
  to do this myself, but I like to do like arts and crafts work.
• 26:45
  And so if you can see in the back of my, my room, there's
• 26:49
  like hexagons that, you know, my partner and I actually painted
• 26:53
  those hexagons and I, I make those mini houses to fit into
• 26:57
  this hexagon wood and shells. And it's a lot of therapeutic
• 27:04
  space for me. Keeping a space for your mind to
• 27:07
  kind of rest, pause and stay creative and tear, yes, is
• 27:11
  really important, yeah. So Doctor Nuri Jung,
• 27:14
  neuroscientist, recommends being creative to manage stress.
• 27:19
  What is your company called? You did mention.
• 27:21
  Goals unhindered. So it's a coaching consulting
• 27:24
  company, correct? Correct.
• 27:26
  It's a corporate training and coaching company, especially for
• 27:29
  teams and leaders who want to reclaim part of $4 trillion that
• 27:33
  we may be missing out on every year because of underutilized
• 27:36
  data. So we help you turn data into
• 27:40
  actual value that you can make money off of if you were.
• 27:44
  Download one skill like in your brain.
• 27:47
  What would it be and why? Well, yeah, I think one of the
• 27:50
  things I would love to do is, you know, thinking about going
• 27:52
  back to creativity, is connecting the dots between
• 27:55
  things that are unlikely paired, something where their
• 27:58
  connections are not clear and obvious.
• 28:01
  I would love to connect the dots more efficiently and I think
• 28:05
  that would be a really critical skills for any creative thoughts
• 28:08
  and ideas. Being able to go across
• 28:11
  disciplines and majors and ways of thinking and and being able
• 28:15
  to create some new connections out of it, this emergent
• 28:20
  commonalities. I think that's really important.
• 28:22
  So how can we be ourselves through independent people of
• 28:26
  creativity in our element, in our essence, but also coexist
• 28:30
  with all these other different types of people?
• 28:32
  We need to be able to learn how we can connect to people.
• 28:36
  Being able to connect the dots between people, between ideas,
• 28:40
  between objects is what gets us problem solvers.
• 28:44
  I love that you are able to break it down for us of the
• 28:47
  neuroscience and the brain, how our brain works and how it
• 28:51
  impacts our lives. Yeah.
• 28:53
  Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much.
• 29:23
  Music.