Latest / Collegium Conversations – der Wissenspodcast des St.Gallen Collegium / Episode 2 – Arpad Szakolczai: «Our rationality is not reasonable!»

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Episode 2 – Arpad Szakolczai: «Our rationality is not reasonable!» · Collegium Conversations – der Wissenspodcast des St.Gallen Collegium

• 0:00
  The
• 0:00
  problem
• 0:00
  is
• 0:00
  that
• 0:01
  the
• 0:01
  modern
• 0:01
  economy
• 0:02
  didn't
• 0:02
  grow
• 0:02
  out
• 0:02
  of
• 0:03
  markets,
• 0:03
  but
• 0:04
  grew
• 0:04
  out
• 0:04
  of
• 0:04
  fairs
• 0:05
  or
• 0:05
  the
• 0:05
  fairground
• 0:07
  training
• 0:07
  and
• 0:07
  elite
• 0:08
  in
• 0:08
  our
• 0:08
  own
• 0:08
  times.
• 0:09
  It's
• 0:09
  a
• 0:09
  very
• 0:09
  delicate
• 0:10
  kind
• 0:10
  of
• 0:10
  activity
• 0:10
  of
• 0:11
  what
• 0:11
  we
• 0:11
  really
• 0:12
  mean
• 0:12
  by
• 0:12
  that.
• 0:13
  And
• 0:13
  Pascal
• 0:14
  said,
• 0:14
  the
• 0:15
  heart
• 0:15
  has
• 0:15
  its
• 0:15
  reasons
• 0:16
  which
• 0:17
  reason
• 0:17
  cannot
• 0:18
  understand.
• 0:19
  Welcome
• 0:20
  to
• 0:20
  no
• 0:20
  Mustard,
• 0:21
  the
• 0:22
  Knowledge
• 0:22
  Podcast
• 0:23
  by
• 0:23
  the
• 0:23
  St.
• 0:23
  Gallen
• 0:24
  Collegium,
• 0:24
  St.
• 0:25
  Gallen,
• 0:25
  Switzerland.
• 0:26
  My
• 0:26
  name
• 0:27
  is
• 0:27
  Wolfram
• 0:27
  Eilenberger,
• 0:28
  your
• 0:29
  host
• 0:29
  for
• 0:29
  this
• 0:29
  season.
• 0:33
  Welcome,
• 0:34
  friends
• 0:34
  of
• 0:35
  Freedom,
• 0:35
  to
• 0:35
  no
• 0:36
  Mustard,
• 0:36
  the
• 0:37
  Knowledge
• 0:37
  Podcast
• 0:38
  by
• 0:38
  the
• 0:38
  Sankalan
• 0:39
  Kurilegium.
• 0:40
  Eight
• 0:41
  great
• 0:41
  minds.
• 0:42
  One
• 0:42
  important
• 0:43
  question.
• 0:43
  Our
• 0:44
  question
• 0:44
  for
• 0:44
  this
• 0:45
  year
• 0:45
  what
• 0:46
  is
• 0:46
  freedom?
• 0:47
  Who
• 0:47
  threatens
• 0:48
  it
• 0:48
  and
• 0:48
  how
• 0:48
  we
• 0:49
  can
• 0:49
  defend
• 0:49
  it
• 0:50
  in
• 0:50
  the
• 0:50
  21st
• 0:51
  century?
• 0:52
  Today's
• 0:53
  guest
• 0:53
  is
• 0:53
  Arpad
• 0:54
  Sakosla.
• 0:55
  He
• 0:55
  is
• 0:55
  the
• 0:56
  Hilti
• 0:56
  Fellow
• 0:56
  of
• 0:57
  the
• 0:57
  St.
• 0:57
  Gallen
• 0:57
  Collegium.
• 0:58
  He
• 0:58
  taught
• 0:59
  for
• 0:59
  more
• 0:59
  than
• 0:59
  20
• 1:00
  years
• 1:00
  as
• 1:00
  a
• 1:00
  professor
• 1:01
  of
• 1:01
  sociology
• 1:02
  at
• 1:02
  the
• 1:02
  University
• 1:03
  of
• 1:03
  Cork.
• 1:04
  He
• 1:04
  has
• 1:05
  a
• 1:05
  PhD
• 1:06
  for
• 1:06
  economics
• 1:07
  at
• 1:07
  the
• 1:07
  University
• 1:07
  of
• 1:08
  Texas.
• 1:09
  And
• 1:09
  his
• 1:09
  topic
• 1:10
  for
• 1:10
  this
• 1:10
  year
• 1:11
  is
• 1:11
  Freedom
• 1:12
  Beyond
• 1:13
  Liberalism.
• 1:14
  Welcome
• 1:14
  to
• 1:14
  the
• 1:14
  podcast,
• 1:15
  Arpad.
• 1:18
  Let's
• 1:19
  start
• 1:19
  with
• 1:19
  the
• 1:20
  present
• 1:20
  moment,
• 1:21
  with
• 1:21
  today.
• 1:22
  Today
• 1:22
  is
• 1:23
  the
• 1:23
  11th
• 1:24
  month
• 1:25
  and
• 1:25
  the
• 1:25
  11th
• 1:26
  day.
• 1:27
  It
• 1:27
  is
• 1:27
  11
• 1:27
  o'
• 1:28
  clock,
• 1:28
  and
• 1:28
  I'm
• 1:28
  not
• 1:29
  making
• 1:29
  this
• 1:29
  up.
• 1:30
  11
• 1:30
  minutes.
• 1:32
  A
• 1:32
  very
• 1:32
  special
• 1:33
  time
• 1:33
  starts
• 1:34
  now.
• 1:35
  It's
• 1:35
  the
• 1:35
  carnival,
• 1:37
  a
• 1:37
  time
• 1:37
  of
• 1:37
  unparalleled
• 1:39
  freedom.
• 1:39
  Arpad,
• 1:40
  you
• 1:40
  are
• 1:40
  an
• 1:40
  anthropologist.
• 1:42
  What
• 1:42
  is
• 1:42
  this
• 1:43
  thing
• 1:43
  with
• 1:43
  carnival?
• 1:44
  Why
• 1:44
  does
• 1:44
  it
• 1:45
  even
• 1:45
  exist?
• 1:46
  Well,
• 1:47
  the
• 1:47
  carnival
• 1:47
  exists
• 1:48
  in
• 1:48
  many
• 1:48
  different
• 1:49
  ways,
• 1:49
  historically
• 1:50
  and
• 1:50
  contemporaneously.
• 1:52
  Carnival
• 1:52
  is
• 1:53
  supposed
• 1:53
  to
• 1:53
  be
• 1:53
  a
• 1:53
  time
• 1:54
  of
• 1:54
  suspense,
• 1:55
  a
• 1:55
  time
• 1:55
  of
• 1:56
  out
• 1:56
  of
• 1:57
  the
• 1:57
  ordinary,
• 1:58
  a
• 1:58
  time
• 1:58
  in
• 1:58
  which
• 1:58
  people
• 1:59
  do
• 1:59
  the
• 1:59
  opposite
• 2:00
  what
• 2:00
  they
• 2:00
  do
• 2:01
  normally,
• 2:02
  a
• 2:03
  time
• 2:03
  to
• 2:04
  break
• 2:04
  the
• 2:04
  rules,
• 2:05
  a
• 2:06
  time
• 2:06
  when
• 2:06
  it
• 2:06
  is
• 2:07
  error
• 2:07
  to
• 2:07
  break
• 2:07
  the
• 2:08
  rules.
• 2:08
  And
• 2:08
  then,
• 2:08
  of
• 2:09
  course,
• 2:10
  it
• 2:10
  doesn't
• 2:11
  really
• 2:11
  matter,
• 2:12
  because
• 2:12
  if
• 2:12
  you
• 2:12
  are
• 2:13
  encouraged
• 2:14
  to
• 2:14
  break
• 2:14
  the
• 2:14
  rules,
• 2:15
  that's
• 2:15
  not
• 2:15
  really
• 2:16
  the
• 2:16
  breaking
• 2:16
  of
• 2:16
  the
• 2:16
  rules.
• 2:17
  So
• 2:17
  that's
• 2:17
  part
• 2:17
  of
• 2:18
  the
• 2:18
  ambivalence
• 2:18
  of
• 2:19
  carnival,
• 2:19
  which
• 2:19
  is
• 2:20
  analyzed
• 2:20
  so
• 2:21
  well,
• 2:21
  among
• 2:21
  others
• 2:22
  by
• 2:23
  Michael
• 2:23
  Bakshin,
• 2:24
  whom
• 2:24
  you
• 2:24
  certainly
• 2:25
  know
• 2:25
  well,
• 2:26
  and
• 2:26
  who
• 2:26
  was
• 2:26
  a
• 2:27
  great
• 2:27
  figure
• 2:28
  of
• 2:28
  intellectual
• 2:28
  history.
• 2:29
  So
• 2:29
  carnival
• 2:30
  has
• 2:30
  its
• 2:30
  historical
• 2:31
  and
• 2:31
  anthropological
• 2:32
  elements
• 2:32
  as
• 2:32
  well.
• 2:33
  And
• 2:33
  would
• 2:34
  it
• 2:34
  be
• 2:34
  fair
• 2:34
  to
• 2:34
  say
• 2:34
  that
• 2:35
  carnival
• 2:35
  is
• 2:36
  a
• 2:36
  genuine
• 2:36
  expression
• 2:37
  of
• 2:37
  the
• 2:38
  human
• 2:38
  longing
• 2:38
  for
• 2:39
  freedom?
• 2:40
  Well,
• 2:42
  it
• 2:42
  might
• 2:43
  be
• 2:43
  the
• 2:43
  case,
• 2:44
  but
• 2:44
  it's
• 2:45
  an
• 2:45
  indication.
• 2:45
  And
• 2:46
  here
• 2:46
  I'm
• 2:46
  talking
• 2:46
  about
• 2:46
  carnival,
• 2:47
  not
• 2:47
  just
• 2:47
  specifically
• 2:48
  the
• 2:49
  modern
• 2:49
  sense
• 2:50
  of
• 2:50
  the
• 2:50
  carnival,
• 2:51
  but
• 2:51
  the
• 2:51
  medieval
• 2:51
  sense
• 2:52
  of
• 2:52
  the
• 2:52
  carnival,
• 2:52
  and
• 2:52
  again,
• 2:53
  the
• 2:53
  similar
• 2:53
  kind
• 2:54
  of
• 2:54
  rituals
• 2:54
  that
• 2:55
  existed
• 2:56
  all
• 2:56
  the
• 2:56
  times.
• 2:57
  And
• 2:57
  just
• 2:57
  concerning
• 2:58
  the
• 2:58
  European
• 2:59
  tradition,
• 2:59
  it
• 2:59
  goes
• 3:00
  back
• 3:00
  to
• 3:00
  the
• 3:00
  Saturnalias
• 3:02
  of
• 3:02
  Rome,
• 3:03
  and
• 3:03
  as
• 3:03
  the
• 3:03
  rule
• 3:03
  of
• 3:04
  Saturn,
• 3:04
  and
• 3:04
  Saturn
• 3:05
  is
• 3:05
  a
• 3:05
  very
• 3:06
  particular
• 3:06
  kind
• 3:07
  of
• 3:07
  deity.
• 3:07
  And
• 3:08
  actually,
• 3:08
  we
• 3:08
  don't
• 3:08
  even
• 3:09
  know
• 3:09
  exactly
• 3:09
  what
• 3:10
  it
• 3:10
  all
• 3:10
  means.
• 3:11
  The
• 3:11
  Saturn
• 3:11
  goes
• 3:12
  back
• 3:12
  to
• 3:12
  the
• 3:12
  Greek
• 3:13
  satyr
• 3:13
  place.
• 3:14
  And
• 3:15
  that
• 3:15
  is,
• 3:16
  you
• 3:16
  know,
• 3:16
  historians
• 3:17
  or
• 3:17
  whatever,
• 3:18
  philologues
• 3:19
  still
• 3:19
  don't
• 3:20
  agree
• 3:20
  whether
• 3:21
  there
• 3:21
  are
• 3:21
  connections
• 3:22
  between
• 3:22
  the
• 3:22
  Greek
• 3:23
  satyr
• 3:23
  players
• 3:23
  and
• 3:24
  the
• 3:24
  Roman
• 3:24
  Saturnalias,
• 3:25
  etymologically
• 3:26
  or
• 3:27
  historically.
• 3:27
  So
• 3:27
  it's
• 3:28
  a
• 3:28
  very
• 3:28
  broad
• 3:29
  phenomenon.
• 3:31
  And
• 3:31
  it's
• 3:31
  also
• 3:31
  a
• 3:31
  time
• 3:32
  where
• 3:32
  the
• 3:32
  fools
• 3:33
  reign,
• 3:34
  where
• 3:34
  the
• 3:34
  fools
• 3:35
  have
• 3:35
  all
• 3:35
  the
• 3:35
  power
• 3:35
  and
• 3:36
  the
• 3:36
  kings
• 3:36
  are
• 3:36
  powerless.
• 3:37
  It's
• 3:37
  a
• 3:38
  time
• 3:38
  where
• 3:38
  the
• 3:38
  world
• 3:39
  is
• 3:39
  turned
• 3:40
  on
• 3:40
  its
• 3:40
  head.
• 3:41
  It's
• 3:41
  almost
• 3:42
  like
• 3:42
  a
• 3:42
  revolution.
• 3:43
  Well,
• 3:43
  it's
• 3:44
  exactly
• 3:44
  the
• 3:44
  point
• 3:45
  that
• 3:45
  it's
• 3:45
  supposedly
• 3:46
  a
• 3:46
  world
• 3:46
  turned
• 3:47
  upside
• 3:47
  down.
• 3:48
  And
• 3:48
  that
• 3:48
  applies
• 3:49
  to
• 3:49
  the
• 3:49
  carnival,
• 3:49
  that
• 3:50
  also
• 3:50
  applies
• 3:50
  to
• 3:51
  the
• 3:51
  comedy.
• 3:52
  Historians
• 3:52
  and
• 3:53
  theoreticians
• 3:53
  of
• 3:53
  the
• 3:54
  comedy
• 3:54
  describe
• 3:55
  the
• 3:55
  comedy
• 3:55
  as
• 3:55
  it
• 3:56
  is
• 3:56
  a
• 3:56
  world
• 3:57
  turn
• 3:57
  upside
• 3:57
  down.
• 3:58
  And
• 3:58
  it
• 3:58
  has
• 3:59
  important
• 4:00
  contemporary
• 4:00
  relevance
• 4:01
  because
• 4:01
  in
• 4:01
  our
• 4:01
  age,
• 4:03
  actors,
• 4:03
  and
• 4:03
  not
• 4:04
  just
• 4:04
  actors,
• 4:04
  but
• 4:04
  comedians
• 4:06
  in
• 4:07
  several
• 4:07
  countries
• 4:08
  play
• 4:08
  political
• 4:09
  role,
• 4:09
  which
• 4:10
  is
• 4:10
  an
• 4:10
  indication
• 4:10
  of
• 4:11
  ever
• 4:11
  turned
• 4:11
  upside
• 4:12
  down.
• 4:13
  It's
• 4:13
  interesting.
• 4:13
  When
• 4:14
  you,
• 4:14
  for
• 4:14
  example,
• 4:14
  watch
• 4:14
  TV
• 4:15
  nowadays,
• 4:16
  you
• 4:16
  could
• 4:16
  also
• 4:16
  have
• 4:16
  the
• 4:17
  impression
• 4:17
  that
• 4:17
  the
• 4:17
  fool's
• 4:18
  reign,
• 4:18
  that
• 4:19
  the
• 4:19
  satire
• 4:20
  is
• 4:20
  everywhere,
• 4:21
  that
• 4:21
  irony
• 4:22
  is
• 4:22
  everywhere.
• 4:22
  It's
• 4:23
  like
• 4:23
  we're
• 4:23
  living
• 4:23
  in
• 4:24
  an
• 4:24
  eternal
• 4:24
  carnival.
• 4:25
  Sometimes
• 4:25
  it
• 4:25
  seems,
• 4:26
  yes,
• 4:27
  that
• 4:27
  it
• 4:27
  is.
• 4:27
  I
• 4:27
  mean,
• 4:28
  that's
• 4:28
  what
• 4:28
  I
• 4:29
  wrote
• 4:29
  about
• 4:29
  the
• 4:30
  permanent
• 4:30
  carnival,
• 4:31
  permanent
• 4:32
  liminality.
• 4:33
  And
• 4:33
  the
• 4:34
  carnival
• 4:34
  also
• 4:34
  has
• 4:34
  links
• 4:35
  to
• 4:35
  sacrifice,
• 4:36
  which
• 4:36
  makes
• 4:36
  it
• 4:36
  even
• 4:37
  more
• 4:37
  paradoxical.
• 4:38
  Even
• 4:38
  the
• 4:38
  Saturnalias
• 4:39
  in
• 4:40
  Rome
• 4:40
  were
• 4:41
  connected
• 4:42
  to
• 4:42
  some
• 4:42
  kind
• 4:42
  of
• 4:43
  sacrifices.
• 4:45
  And
• 4:45
  I
• 4:46
  call
• 4:46
  this
• 4:46
  permanent
• 4:47
  carnival
• 4:47
  of
• 4:48
  ours
• 4:48
  as
• 4:48
  a
• 4:48
  kind
• 4:48
  of
• 4:49
  sacrificial
• 4:49
  carnival.
• 4:50
  Bakhtin
• 4:51
  is
• 4:51
  very
• 4:51
  important
• 4:51
  here.
• 4:52
  The
• 4:52
  Russian
• 4:53
  cultural
• 4:53
  theory
• 4:54
  Guy,
• 4:54
  Mikhail
• 4:55
  Bakhtin.
• 4:55
  Exactly.
• 4:56
  Because
• 4:56
  Bakhtin
• 4:57
  lived
• 4:57
  in
• 4:57
  the
• 4:58
  Soviet
• 4:58
  Union
• 4:58
  and
• 4:58
  he
• 4:59
  wrote
• 4:59
  his
• 4:59
  book
• 5:00
  in
• 5:00
  the
• 5:00
  Soviet
• 5:00
  Union.
• 5:01
  And
• 5:02
  the
• 5:02
  Soviet
• 5:02
  Union
• 5:02
  was
• 5:03
  again
• 5:04
  a
• 5:04
  place
• 5:04
  of
• 5:05
  a
• 5:05
  permanent
• 5:06
  kind
• 5:06
  of
• 5:06
  sacrificial
• 5:07
  carnival,
• 5:08
  because
• 5:08
  it
• 5:08
  was
• 5:08
  partly
• 5:09
  sacrificial,
• 5:10
  partly
• 5:11
  carnivalesque,
• 5:12
  very
• 5:13
  absurd,
• 5:13
  but
• 5:13
  when
• 5:14
  the
• 5:14
  absurd
• 5:14
  was
• 5:14
  real
• 5:15
  and
• 5:15
  reality
• 5:15
  was
• 5:16
  absurd.
• 5:16
  So
• 5:17
  it's
• 5:17
  a.
• 5:18
  Now
• 5:18
  we
• 5:18
  are
• 5:19
  already
• 5:19
  in
• 5:19
  the
• 5:20
  midst
• 5:20
  of
• 5:20
  the
• 5:20
  fascinating
• 5:21
  turns
• 5:21
  and
• 5:22
  twists
• 5:22
  you
• 5:22
  can
• 5:22
  give
• 5:22
  to
• 5:23
  cultural
• 5:23
  history.
• 5:23
  You
• 5:24
  would
• 5:24
  say
• 5:24
  that
• 5:24
  the
• 5:24
  Stalinism
• 5:25
  as
• 5:25
  we
• 5:26
  know
• 5:26
  them,
• 5:27
  as
• 5:27
  we
• 5:27
  know
• 5:27
  it,
• 5:28
  and
• 5:28
  as
• 5:28
  we
• 5:28
  remember,
• 5:28
  it
• 5:29
  was
• 5:29
  kind
• 5:29
  of
• 5:29
  a
• 5:30
  carnival
• 5:30
  where
• 5:31
  the
• 5:31
  population
• 5:31
  was
• 5:31
  sacrificed
• 5:32
  for
• 5:32
  an
• 5:33
  idea.
• 5:34
  It
• 5:34
  was
• 5:34
  something
• 5:34
  like
• 5:35
  that.
• 5:36
  Everything
• 5:36
  about
• 5:36
  this
• 5:37
  was
• 5:37
  highly
• 5:38
  absurd,
• 5:38
  but
• 5:38
  it
• 5:38
  was
• 5:39
  only
• 5:40
  highly
• 5:40
  comedic.
• 5:41
  Now,
• 5:42
  it
• 5:42
  was
• 5:43
  quite
• 5:43
  some
• 5:43
  time
• 5:43
  ago,
• 5:44
  and
• 5:44
  I
• 5:44
  don't
• 5:44
  remember
• 5:45
  eight
• 5:45
  or
• 5:45
  ten
• 5:45
  years
• 5:46
  ago,
• 5:46
  but
• 5:46
  a
• 5:47
  Scottish
• 5:47
  filmmaker
• 5:48
  made
• 5:48
  a
• 5:48
  film
• 5:48
  about
• 5:49
  Stalin.
• 5:50
  Exactly
• 5:51
  in
• 5:51
  this
• 5:51
  kind
• 5:51
  of
• 5:51
  sense
• 5:52
  that
• 5:52
  it
• 5:52
  was
• 5:53
  awful
• 5:53
  and
• 5:54
  terrible
• 5:54
  and
• 5:54
  terrifying,
• 5:55
  but
• 5:55
  at
• 5:56
  the
• 5:56
  same
• 5:56
  time
• 5:57
  it
• 5:57
  was
• 5:57
  comic.
• 5:58
  And
• 5:59
  this
• 5:59
  was
• 5:59
  A
• 5:59
  kind
• 5:59
  of
• 6:00
  permanent
• 6:00
  reality
• 6:01
  for
• 6:02
  those
• 6:02
  living
• 6:02
  in
• 6:03
  those
• 6:03
  times.
• 6:03
  And
• 6:03
  I
• 6:03
  mean,
• 6:04
  I
• 6:04
  was
• 6:04
  born
• 6:04
  in.
• 6:04
  In
• 6:04
  58,
• 6:05
  so
• 6:05
  I
• 6:05
  didn't
• 6:05
  live
• 6:06
  in
• 6:06
  Hungary,
• 6:06
  in
• 6:07
  Hungary.
• 6:07
  So
• 6:08
  I
• 6:08
  didn't
• 6:08
  live
• 6:08
  in
• 6:08
  the
• 6:08
  first
• 6:09
  times.
• 6:10
  But
• 6:10
  I
• 6:10
  had
• 6:10
  some
• 6:12
  recollections
• 6:13
  or,
• 6:13
  you
• 6:13
  know,
• 6:13
  family,
• 6:14
  people
• 6:15
  around
• 6:15
  historically
• 6:16
  and.
• 6:16
  And
• 6:17
  what
• 6:18
  the
• 6:18
  reality
• 6:19
  in
• 6:19
  which
• 6:19
  I
• 6:19
  was
• 6:20
  growing
• 6:20
  into
• 6:20
  in
• 6:21
  the
• 6:21
  1960s
• 6:22
  was
• 6:22
  still
• 6:22
  pretty
• 6:22
  much
• 6:23
  a
• 6:23
  kind
• 6:23
  of
• 6:24
  very
• 6:24
  grim
• 6:25
  Soviet
• 6:26
  reality,
• 6:26
  but
• 6:27
  which
• 6:27
  is
• 6:27
  also
• 6:27
  absurd
• 6:28
  at
• 6:28
  every
• 6:28
  level.
• 6:29
  Absurd,
• 6:30
  Terribly
• 6:30
  comical.
• 6:31
  Yes,
• 6:31
  exactly.
• 6:31
  Abysmal
• 6:32
  in
• 6:32
  many
• 6:32
  ways.
• 6:33
  And
• 6:33
  one
• 6:34
  of
• 6:34
  the
• 6:34
  hallmarks
• 6:34
  of
• 6:34
  Stalinism
• 6:35
  and
• 6:35
  the
• 6:36
  Soviet
• 6:36
  World
• 6:36
  War
• 6:37
  was
• 6:37
  the
• 6:37
  aim
• 6:38
  to
• 6:38
  create
• 6:39
  a
• 6:39
  new
• 6:39
  human
• 6:40
  being,
• 6:40
  the
• 6:41
  new
• 6:41
  human
• 6:42
  to
• 6:42
  remake
• 6:43
  humanity.
• 6:43
  And
• 6:44
  that
• 6:44
  brings
• 6:44
  us
• 6:44
  to
• 6:45
  your
• 6:45
  discipline,
• 6:45
  which
• 6:46
  is
• 6:46
  anthropology,
• 6:47
  political
• 6:48
  anthropology.
• 6:49
  First
• 6:49
  of
• 6:49
  all,
• 6:50
  the
• 6:50
  question
• 6:50
  of
• 6:50
  anthropology.
• 6:51
  What
• 6:51
  is
• 6:51
  it?
• 6:52
  Is
• 6:52
  it
• 6:52
  the
• 6:52
  question,
• 6:52
  what
• 6:53
  is
• 6:53
  a
• 6:53
  human
• 6:53
  being?
• 6:54
  And
• 6:54
  why
• 6:54
  are
• 6:54
  humans
• 6:55
  different
• 6:55
  from
• 6:55
  any
• 6:55
  other
• 6:56
  kind
• 6:56
  of
• 6:56
  species?
• 6:57
  Yes,
• 6:57
  but
• 6:58
  that's
• 6:58
  a
• 6:58
  very
• 6:58
  important
• 6:58
  question.
• 6:59
  I
• 6:59
  must
• 6:59
  say
• 6:59
  something
• 7:00
  before,
• 7:00
  because
• 7:01
  what
• 7:01
  I'm
• 7:02
  doing,
• 7:02
  I
• 7:02
  call
• 7:03
  now
• 7:03
  political
• 7:03
  anthropology,
• 7:04
  but
• 7:04
  actually
• 7:05
  I'm
• 7:05
  an
• 7:05
  emeritus
• 7:06
  professor
• 7:06
  of
• 7:06
  sociology.
• 7:07
  So
• 7:07
  I
• 7:07
  was
• 7:07
  a
• 7:07
  professor
• 7:08
  of
• 7:08
  sociology
• 7:09
  for
• 7:09
  23
• 7:10
  years
• 7:10
  or
• 7:10
  so,
• 7:11
  teaching
• 7:11
  in
• 7:12
  Ireland,
• 7:12
  mainly
• 7:13
  in
• 7:13
  Ireland,
• 7:13
  but
• 7:14
  before
• 7:14
  then
• 7:14
  that.
• 7:14
  I
• 7:15
  have
• 7:15
  a
• 7:15
  PhD
• 7:15
  in
• 7:15
  economics
• 7:16
  from
• 7:16
  the
• 7:16
  University
• 7:17
  of
• 7:17
  Texas.
• 7:17
  So
• 7:18
  many
• 7:18
  people
• 7:19
  would
• 7:19
  be
• 7:19
  upset
• 7:19
  if
• 7:20
  I
• 7:20
  call
• 7:20
  myself
• 7:20
  an
• 7:20
  anthropologist,
• 7:21
  but
• 7:22
  that's
• 7:22
  part
• 7:22
  of
• 7:22
  the
• 7:22
  thing
• 7:23
  which
• 7:23
  I'm
• 7:23
  doing.
• 7:24
  And
• 7:24
  certainly
• 7:24
  this
• 7:25
  question
• 7:25
  of,
• 7:25
  you
• 7:26
  know,
• 7:26
  what
• 7:26
  does
• 7:26
  it
• 7:27
  to
• 7:27
  be
• 7:27
  human
• 7:28
  is
• 7:28
  a
• 7:28
  very
• 7:28
  fundamental
• 7:29
  question,
• 7:29
  and
• 7:29
  it
• 7:30
  goes
• 7:30
  into
• 7:30
  the
• 7:30
  heart
• 7:31
  of
• 7:31
  sociology,
• 7:32
  anthropology,
• 7:33
  even
• 7:33
  philosophy.
• 7:34
  I
• 7:34
  mean,
• 7:35
  that
• 7:35
  was
• 7:35
  the
• 7:35
  question
• 7:35
  of
• 7:36
  Kant's
• 7:36
  lectures.
• 7:37
  And
• 7:37
  this
• 7:37
  is
• 7:37
  what
• 7:38
  Michel
• 7:38
  Foucault
• 7:39
  wrote
• 7:39
  his
• 7:39
  minor
• 7:40
  thesis
• 7:40
  on
• 7:41
  in
• 7:42
  the
• 7:42
  early,
• 7:42
  very
• 7:43
  early
• 7:43
  1960s.
• 7:44
  So
• 7:44
  it's
• 7:44
  not
• 7:45
  one
• 7:45
  of
• 7:45
  the
• 7:46
  most
• 7:46
  important
• 7:46
  questions.
• 7:47
  It's
• 7:47
  possibly
• 7:48
  the
• 7:48
  most
• 7:48
  important
• 7:48
  question
• 7:49
  in.
• 7:49
  A
• 7:49
  certain
• 7:50
  way,
• 7:50
  of
• 7:50
  course,
• 7:51
  because
• 7:51
  we
• 7:51
  are
• 7:51
  all
• 7:52
  human.
• 7:52
  We
• 7:52
  are
• 7:52
  human
• 7:53
  beings,
• 7:53
  and
• 7:53
  we
• 7:53
  have
• 7:54
  to
• 7:54
  understand
• 7:54
  what
• 7:54
  it
• 7:55
  takes
• 7:55
  to
• 7:55
  be
• 7:56
  a
• 7:56
  human
• 7:56
  being.
• 7:56
  And
• 7:57
  of
• 7:57
  course,
• 7:57
  a
• 7:57
  human
• 7:57
  being
• 7:57
  is
• 7:58
  not
• 7:58
  just
• 7:58
  an
• 7:59
  isolated
• 7:59
  human
• 8:00
  being,
• 8:00
  because
• 8:00
  a
• 8:00
  human
• 8:01
  being
• 8:01
  without
• 8:01
  language
• 8:02
  is
• 8:02
  not
• 8:02
  a
• 8:02
  human
• 8:02
  being,
• 8:03
  and
• 8:03
  a
• 8:03
  language
• 8:03
  is
• 8:03
  not
• 8:04
  a
• 8:04
  private
• 8:04
  language,
• 8:04
  as
• 8:05
  we
• 8:05
  know.
• 8:05
  So
• 8:05
  it's
• 8:05
  also
• 8:06
  a
• 8:06
  social
• 8:07
  and
• 8:07
  political
• 8:08
  question,
• 8:09
  and
• 8:10
  it's
• 8:10
  also
• 8:10
  a
• 8:10
  very
• 8:11
  contemporary
• 8:11
  question.
• 8:12
  If
• 8:12
  you
• 8:13
  only
• 8:13
  look
• 8:13
  into
• 8:13
  technology
• 8:14
  and
• 8:15
  AI
• 8:15
  and
• 8:16
  what
• 8:16
  does.
• 8:17
  Does
• 8:18
  this
• 8:18
  do
• 8:19
  to
• 8:19
  us?
• 8:19
  Or
• 8:20
  does
• 8:20
  it
• 8:20
  alter
• 8:21
  or
• 8:21
  at
• 8:21
  least
• 8:21
  threaten
• 8:22
  our
• 8:22
  very
• 8:23
  humanity?
• 8:24
  And
• 8:24
  of
• 8:24
  course,
• 8:24
  the
• 8:24
  social
• 8:25
  sciences
• 8:26
  and
• 8:26
  the
• 8:26
  humanities
• 8:27
  are
• 8:27
  in
• 8:27
  the
• 8:27
  business
• 8:27
  of
• 8:28
  giving
• 8:28
  answers
• 8:28
  to
• 8:29
  that
• 8:29
  very
• 8:29
  question.
• 8:30
  And
• 8:30
  several
• 8:30
  answers
• 8:31
  have
• 8:31
  been
• 8:31
  given.
• 8:31
  For
• 8:32
  example,
• 8:32
  there's
• 8:33
  the
• 8:33
  idea
• 8:33
  that
• 8:33
  we
• 8:33
  are
• 8:34
  homo
• 8:34
  economicus,
• 8:36
  that
• 8:36
  we
• 8:36
  are
• 8:36
  an
• 8:36
  economical
• 8:37
  being.
• 8:38
  There's
• 8:38
  an
• 8:38
  idea
• 8:39
  that
• 8:39
  we
• 8:39
  are
• 8:39
  homo
• 8:39
  ludens
• 8:40
  that
• 8:40
  we
• 8:41
  are
• 8:41
  playful
• 8:41
  beings.
• 8:42
  There's
• 8:42
  the
• 8:43
  idea
• 8:43
  that
• 8:43
  we
• 8:43
  are
• 8:44
  homozymbolicum,
• 8:46
  that
• 8:46
  we
• 8:46
  are
• 8:46
  symbol
• 8:47
  using
• 8:47
  animals.
• 8:48
  What
• 8:48
  is
• 8:48
  the
• 8:48
  answer,
• 8:49
  if
• 8:49
  there
• 8:49
  is
• 8:49
  any,
• 8:50
  that
• 8:50
  you
• 8:50
  prefer
• 8:50
  to
• 8:51
  that
• 8:51
  question?
• 8:52
  Well,
• 8:53
  it's
• 8:53
  an
• 8:53
  interesting
• 8:54
  question
• 8:54
  because
• 8:54
  I
• 8:54
  don't
• 8:55
  like
• 8:55
  to
• 8:55
  give
• 8:55
  this
• 8:55
  kind
• 8:56
  of
• 8:56
  quick
• 8:57
  answers.
• 8:57
  And
• 8:57
  the
• 8:57
  basic
• 8:58
  point
• 8:58
  is
• 8:58
  that
• 8:59
  all
• 8:59
  of
• 8:59
  these
• 8:59
  answers
• 9:00
  capture
• 9:01
  one
• 9:01
  element
• 9:01
  of
• 9:02
  that.
• 9:02
  I
• 9:02
  mean,
• 9:02
  you
• 9:02
  didn't
• 9:02
  mention
• 9:03
  the
• 9:03
  Homo
• 9:03
  faber,
• 9:04
  which
• 9:04
  was
• 9:05
  also
• 9:05
  a
• 9:05
  very
• 9:06
  famous
• 9:06
  kind
• 9:07
  of
• 9:07
  response
• 9:07
  and
• 9:08
  tool
• 9:08
  using
• 9:08
  animal.
• 9:09
  Very
• 9:10
  partial.
• 9:10
  And
• 9:11
  there
• 9:11
  is
• 9:11
  also
• 9:11
  the
• 9:11
  response
• 9:12
  of
• 9:12
  Tim
• 9:12
  Ingold,
• 9:13
  who
• 9:13
  is
• 9:13
  one
• 9:13
  of
• 9:13
  the
• 9:13
  most
• 9:13
  famous,
• 9:14
  most
• 9:14
  important
• 9:14
  anthropologists
• 9:15
  of
• 9:15
  all
• 9:16
  our
• 9:16
  times
• 9:16
  and
• 9:16
  of
• 9:16
  old
• 9:16
  times,
• 9:17
  which
• 9:17
  is,
• 9:18
  I
• 9:18
  can't
• 9:18
  remember
• 9:19
  the
• 9:19
  Latin
• 9:19
  version
• 9:20
  of
• 9:20
  that,
• 9:20
  which
• 9:20
  is
• 9:20
  the.
• 9:20
  It's
• 9:21
  the
• 9:21
  Vulcan
• 9:21
  man.
• 9:22
  So
• 9:22
  the
• 9:22
  Homo
• 9:22
  labora
• 9:23
  viatore.
• 9:24
  Yes,
• 9:24
  it's
• 9:24
  Homo
• 9:25
  viatore.
• 9:25
  So
• 9:26
  it's.
• 9:27
  And
• 9:27
  actually
• 9:27
  the
• 9:28
  Homo
• 9:28
  viatore
• 9:29
  for
• 9:29
  me
• 9:29
  is
• 9:29
  the,
• 9:30
  maybe
• 9:31
  the
• 9:31
  most
• 9:32
  closest
• 9:33
  to
• 9:33
  the
• 9:34
  real
• 9:34
  thing,
• 9:34
  the
• 9:34
  viatore
• 9:35
  in
• 9:35
  the
• 9:35
  sense
• 9:35
  of
• 9:35
  walking,
• 9:36
  in
• 9:36
  a
• 9:36
  sense
• 9:37
  of
• 9:37
  being
• 9:38
  on
• 9:38
  the
• 9:38
  road.
• 9:39
  And
• 9:39
  this
• 9:39
  is
• 9:40
  in
• 9:40
  gold.
• 9:40
  But
• 9:40
  this
• 9:40
  is
• 9:41
  also
• 9:41
  a
• 9:41
  kind
• 9:41
  of
• 9:41
  Heideggerian
• 9:42
  response
• 9:43
  about
• 9:43
  the
• 9:43
  road.
• 9:44
  It's
• 9:44
  a
• 9:44
  very
• 9:44
  Greek
• 9:45
  response
• 9:45
  about
• 9:46
  metahodos.
• 9:47
  And
• 9:48
  we
• 9:48
  are
• 9:48
  back
• 9:48
  into,
• 9:48
  even
• 9:49
  into
• 9:49
  method,
• 9:49
  because
• 9:50
  the
• 9:50
  very
• 9:50
  word
• 9:50
  method
• 9:52
  is
• 9:52
  Greek
• 9:53
  and
• 9:53
  metahodos
• 9:54
  means
• 9:55
  according
• 9:56
  to
• 9:56
  or
• 9:56
  alongside
• 9:57
  the
• 9:57
  way
• 9:57
  or
• 9:58
  the
• 9:58
  road.
• 9:58
  So
• 9:59
  method
• 10:00
  doesn't
• 10:00
  mean
• 10:00
  that
• 10:00
  you
• 10:01
  have
• 10:01
  to
• 10:01
  follow
• 10:01
  the
• 10:01
  scientific
• 10:03
  method
• 10:04
  or
• 10:04
  the
• 10:04
  rules,
• 10:05
  but
• 10:05
  you
• 10:05
  have
• 10:05
  to
• 10:05
  somehow
• 10:06
  find
• 10:06
  a
• 10:06
  way
• 10:07
  and
• 10:07
  follow
• 10:07
  the
• 10:07
  way.
• 10:08
  And
• 10:08
  that
• 10:08
  is
• 10:08
  very
• 10:09
  human,
• 10:09
  to
• 10:09
  find.
• 10:10
  Your
• 10:10
  way
• 10:10
  and
• 10:11
  to
• 10:11
  follow
• 10:11
  the
• 10:12
  way.
• 10:12
  That's
• 10:12
  one
• 10:12
  way
• 10:13
  to
• 10:13
  talk
• 10:14
  about
• 10:14
  freedom.
• 10:15
  And
• 10:16
  maybe
• 10:16
  one
• 10:16
  way
• 10:17
  to
• 10:17
  define
• 10:18
  the
• 10:18
  human
• 10:18
  being
• 10:18
  is
• 10:19
  also.
• 10:19
  It's
• 10:19
  a
• 10:20
  life
• 10:20
  form
• 10:21
  that
• 10:21
  seeks
• 10:22
  freedom,
• 10:23
  that
• 10:23
  has
• 10:23
  the
• 10:24
  longing
• 10:24
  for
• 10:24
  freedom,
• 10:25
  that
• 10:26
  urges
• 10:27
  to
• 10:27
  be
• 10:28
  free.
• 10:28
  Would
• 10:28
  you
• 10:28
  say
• 10:29
  that
• 10:29
  this
• 10:29
  is
• 10:29
  a
• 10:29
  possible
• 10:29
  answer
• 10:30
  too?
• 10:30
  That
• 10:30
  we
• 10:31
  are
• 10:32
  beings
• 10:32
  that
• 10:33
  long
• 10:33
  to
• 10:33
  be
• 10:34
  free?
• 10:35
  That
• 10:35
  is
• 10:35
  absolutely
• 10:35
  the
• 10:36
  case.
• 10:36
  But
• 10:36
  then
• 10:36
  we
• 10:36
  have
• 10:37
  to
• 10:37
  be
• 10:37
  very
• 10:37
  careful
• 10:38
  what
• 10:39
  we
• 10:39
  mean
• 10:39
  by
• 10:40
  this
• 10:40
  kind
• 10:40
  of
• 10:41
  freedom.
• 10:41
  Because
• 10:42
  just
• 10:42
  to
• 10:43
  go
• 10:43
  back
• 10:43
  to
• 10:44
  the
• 10:44
  question
• 10:44
  of
• 10:44
  technology,
• 10:45
  which
• 10:45
  is,
• 10:46
  you
• 10:46
  know,
• 10:46
  working
• 10:48
  free
• 10:48
  means
• 10:48
  that
• 10:49
  you
• 10:49
  don't
• 10:49
  have
• 10:50
  obstacles
• 10:50
  all
• 10:50
  the
• 10:51
  way.
• 10:51
  And
• 10:52
  with
• 10:52
  technology
• 10:52
  you
• 10:53
  have
• 10:53
  obstacles
• 10:53
  all
• 10:54
  around.
• 10:54
  I
• 10:54
  mean,
• 10:54
  we
• 10:54
  did
• 10:55
  four
• 10:55
  pilgrimages
• 10:56
  with
• 10:57
  Agnes
• 10:57
  through
• 10:58
  Europe.
• 10:58
  Your
• 10:58
  wife,
• 10:59
  Agnes.
• 10:59
  She's
• 10:59
  my
• 10:59
  wife.
• 10:59
  Agnes
• 11:00
  wife
• 11:01
  and
• 11:01
  co
• 11:01
  author
• 11:01
  and
• 11:02
  mentor
• 11:02
  and
• 11:02
  everything.
• 11:03
  Your
• 11:03
  intellectual
• 11:05
  counterpart,
• 11:05
  you
• 11:06
  could
• 11:06
  say.
• 11:07
  Yeah,
• 11:07
  well,
• 11:07
  counterpart,
• 11:08
  but
• 11:08
  not
• 11:08
  in
• 11:08
  a
• 11:08
  sense
• 11:09
  of
• 11:09
  contra,
• 11:09
  but
• 11:09
  in
• 11:10
  the
• 11:10
  sense
• 11:10
  of
• 11:10
  conversational
• 11:11
  partner.
• 11:11
  Yes.
• 11:12
  So
• 11:12
  we
• 11:12
  did
• 11:12
  four
• 11:13
  working
• 11:13
  partners
• 11:14
  and
• 11:14
  they
• 11:14
  were
• 11:15
  really
• 11:15
  eye
• 11:15
  opening
• 11:16
  in
• 11:16
  a
• 11:16
  kind
• 11:16
  of
• 11:17
  way,
• 11:17
  because
• 11:18
  this
• 11:18
  is
• 11:18
  when
• 11:18
  we
• 11:18
  realized
• 11:20
  somehow
• 11:20
  the
• 11:20
  untenability
• 11:21
  and
• 11:22
  the
• 11:22
  utter
• 11:22
  corruptness
• 11:23
  of
• 11:23
  the
• 11:23
  entire
• 11:24
  world.
• 11:24
  In
• 11:24
  which
• 11:25
  we
• 11:26
  live
• 11:26
  in.
• 11:26
  Because
• 11:27
  on
• 11:27
  the
• 11:27
  one
• 11:27
  hand,
• 11:27
  we
• 11:28
  were
• 11:28
  continuously
• 11:29
  encountering
• 11:30
  obstacles
• 11:32
  in
• 11:32
  terms
• 11:32
  of
• 11:32
  walking.
• 11:33
  And
• 11:34
  also
• 11:35
  the
• 11:35
  working
• 11:35
  meant
• 11:36
  that
• 11:36
  we
• 11:36
  walked
• 11:37
  through
• 11:37
  nature
• 11:38
  walking.
• 11:39
  Not
• 11:39
  working.
• 11:40
  Just
• 11:40
  to
• 11:40
  make
• 11:40
  that
• 11:41
  clear.
• 11:41
  Yes,
• 11:41
  we
• 11:41
  walked.
• 11:42
  Walked
• 11:43
  through
• 11:43
  nature
• 11:44
  walking.
• 11:44
  We
• 11:45
  walk
• 11:45
  through
• 11:46
  culture,
• 11:46
  and
• 11:46
  then
• 11:47
  we
• 11:47
  walk
• 11:47
  through
• 11:47
  modernity
• 11:49
  when
• 11:49
  it
• 11:49
  was
• 11:49
  a
• 11:49
  modern
• 11:50
  city,
• 11:50
  when
• 11:50
  it
• 11:50
  was
• 11:51
  a
• 11:52
  railroad
• 11:52
  track,
• 11:52
  or
• 11:53
  when
• 11:53
  it
• 11:53
  was
• 11:53
  an
• 11:53
  enormous
• 11:54
  highway
• 11:55
  intersection.
• 11:56
  And
• 11:56
  how
• 11:56
  can
• 11:56
  you
• 11:57
  walk
• 11:57
  through
• 11:58
  an
• 11:58
  intersection
• 11:59
  of
• 12:00
  interstate
• 12:00
  highways
• 12:01
  and
• 12:01
  so
• 12:01
  on.
• 12:02
  So
• 12:02
  your
• 12:02
  idea
• 12:03
  is
• 12:03
  that
• 12:03
  technology
• 12:04
  essentially
• 12:04
  is
• 12:05
  blocking
• 12:05
  our
• 12:06
  way,
• 12:06
  that
• 12:06
  we
• 12:07
  want
• 12:07
  to
• 12:07
  walk,
• 12:07
  that
• 12:07
  we
• 12:08
  want
• 12:08
  to
• 12:08
  roam
• 12:09
  freely.
• 12:10
  And
• 12:10
  technology
• 12:10
  makes
• 12:11
  that
• 12:11
  increasingly
• 12:12
  impossible,
• 12:12
  which
• 12:13
  is
• 12:13
  strange
• 12:14
  to
• 12:14
  many
• 12:14
  people,
• 12:14
  because
• 12:14
  I
• 12:15
  would
• 12:15
  think,
• 12:15
  you
• 12:15
  know,
• 12:16
  the
• 12:16
  wheel
• 12:16
  is
• 12:17
  a
• 12:17
  kind
• 12:17
  of
• 12:17
  a
• 12:18
  tool.
• 12:18
  It
• 12:18
  makes
• 12:18
  things
• 12:18
  much
• 12:19
  easier,
• 12:20
  makes
• 12:20
  it
• 12:20
  also
• 12:20
  much
• 12:21
  easier
• 12:21
  to
• 12:21
  travel.
• 12:21
  Or
• 12:22
  think
• 12:22
  of
• 12:22
  the
• 12:22
  iPhone
• 12:22
  and
• 12:23
  the
• 12:23
  GPS
• 12:23
  makes
• 12:24
  it
• 12:24
  much
• 12:24
  easier
• 12:25
  to
• 12:25
  travel.
• 12:25
  Is
• 12:25
  it
• 12:25
  really
• 12:26
  true
• 12:26
  that
• 12:26
  technology
• 12:28
  is
• 12:29
  blocking
• 12:29
  our
• 12:30
  way?
• 12:30
  Is
• 12:30
  it
• 12:30
  not
• 12:30
  just
• 12:31
  paving
• 12:31
  new
• 12:31
  paths?
• 12:32
  You
• 12:32
  see,
• 12:32
  that's
• 12:33
  a.
• 12:34
  I
• 12:35
  don't
• 12:35
  want
• 12:35
  to
• 12:35
  enter
• 12:35
  into
• 12:36
  conceptual
• 12:36
  distinctions,
• 12:37
  but
• 12:37
  it's
• 12:37
  very
• 12:37
  important
• 12:38
  to
• 12:38
  distinguish
• 12:39
  between
• 12:39
  technique
• 12:40
  as
• 12:40
  a
• 12:40
  kind
• 12:41
  of
• 12:41
  tool
• 12:41
  and
• 12:42
  technology.
• 12:43
  And
• 12:43
  what
• 12:44
  it
• 12:44
  means
• 12:44
  is
• 12:44
  that,
• 12:45
  you
• 12:45
  know,
• 12:45
  we
• 12:45
  need
• 12:45
  tools.
• 12:46
  I
• 12:46
  mean,
• 12:46
  like,
• 12:46
  I'm
• 12:47
  using
• 12:47
  a
• 12:47
  pen,
• 12:48
  and
• 12:49
  so
• 12:49
  I'm
• 12:50
  putting
• 12:50
  down
• 12:51
  points
• 12:51
  by
• 12:51
  my
• 12:51
  pen,
• 12:52
  and
• 12:52
  that's
• 12:52
  a
• 12:52
  tool.
• 12:53
  But
• 12:53
  even
• 12:54
  that
• 12:54
  is
• 12:55
  a
• 12:55
  bit
• 12:56
  ambiguous
• 12:57
  because
• 12:57
  the
• 12:58
  more
• 12:58
  I
• 12:58
  register
• 12:59
  things,
• 12:59
  the
• 12:59
  more
• 12:59
  I
• 13:00
  forget
• 13:00
  it.
• 13:01
  So
• 13:01
  if
• 13:01
  you
• 13:01
  look
• 13:02
  into
• 13:02
  the
• 13:02
  past,
• 13:02
  and
• 13:03
  if
• 13:03
  you
• 13:03
  looked
• 13:03
  into,
• 13:03
  you
• 13:04
  know,
• 13:04
  Homer
• 13:04
  and
• 13:05
  Greek,
• 13:06
  whatever,
• 13:06
  rhapsods,
• 13:07
  or
• 13:08
  you
• 13:08
  look
• 13:09
  into
• 13:09
  Serbian
• 13:10
  popular
• 13:11
  poets
• 13:12
  and
• 13:12
  artists,
• 13:13
  they
• 13:13
  remembered,
• 13:14
  you
• 13:14
  know,
• 13:14
  poems
• 13:15
  which
• 13:15
  were
• 13:16
  tens
• 13:17
  of
• 13:17
  thousands
• 13:17
  of
• 13:17
  words,
• 13:18
  and
• 13:18
  they
• 13:18
  just
• 13:18
  recounted
• 13:19
  it
• 13:19
  because
• 13:19
  they
• 13:20
  remembered
• 13:20
  it.
• 13:21
  So
• 13:21
  in
• 13:21
  a
• 13:22
  way,
• 13:22
  simple
• 13:22
  tools
• 13:23
  undermine
• 13:24
  our
• 13:25
  own
• 13:25
  abilities.
• 13:26
  Now.
• 13:26
  But
• 13:27
  what
• 13:27
  I
• 13:27
  call
• 13:27
  technology,
• 13:28
  that's
• 13:28
  very
• 13:29
  different
• 13:29
  because
• 13:29
  technology
• 13:30
  is
• 13:31
  when.
• 13:31
  And
• 13:31
  it's
• 13:32
  very
• 13:32
  Heidegger.
• 13:33
  But
• 13:33
  Heidegger
• 13:33
  was
• 13:33
  very
• 13:34
  right
• 13:34
  in
• 13:34
  that.
• 13:34
  Martin
• 13:35
  Heidegger,
• 13:35
  the
• 13:35
  German
• 13:36
  philosopher
• 13:36
  of
• 13:36
  the
• 13:36
  20th
• 13:37
  century.
• 13:37
  And
• 13:37
  what
• 13:38
  it
• 13:38
  means
• 13:38
  is
• 13:38
  that,
• 13:38
  you
• 13:39
  know,
• 13:39
  instead
• 13:39
  of
• 13:39
  we
• 13:40
  are
• 13:40
  using
• 13:40
  technology,
• 13:41
  it
• 13:41
  is
• 13:42
  technology
• 13:43
  which
• 13:43
  is
• 13:43
  using
• 13:44
  us
• 13:45
  increasingly.
• 13:46
  And
• 13:46
  with
• 13:46
  the
• 13:46
  AI,
• 13:47
  that's
• 13:48
  even
• 13:48
  more
• 13:48
  the
• 13:48
  case,
• 13:49
  because
• 13:49
  the
• 13:49
  way
• 13:49
  AI
• 13:50
  works
• 13:50
  is
• 13:50
  that
• 13:51
  it
• 13:51
  takes
• 13:51
  some
• 13:52
  models
• 13:53
  and
• 13:53
  assumes
• 13:54
  that
• 13:54
  it
• 13:54
  is
• 13:54
  this
• 13:55
  model
• 13:55
  that
• 13:56
  we
• 13:56
  are
• 13:57
  following
• 13:57
  and
• 13:58
  imposes
• 13:58
  that
• 13:58
  on
• 13:59
  us.
• 14:00
  So
• 14:01
  anybody
• 14:01
  who
• 14:01
  doesn't
• 14:02
  fit
• 14:02
  the
• 14:02
  model,
• 14:03
  who,
• 14:03
  let's
• 14:03
  say,
• 14:04
  is
• 14:04
  an
• 14:04
  outlier,
• 14:04
  even
• 14:05
  in
• 14:05
  terms
• 14:05
  of
• 14:05
  mathematical
• 14:06
  statistics,
• 14:07
  is
• 14:07
  somebody
• 14:08
  who
• 14:08
  is
• 14:08
  to
• 14:08
  be
• 14:09
  eliminated.
• 14:09
  And
• 14:10
  that's
• 14:10
  a
• 14:10
  sacrificial
• 14:10
  mechanism
• 14:11
  on
• 14:11
  its
• 14:11
  own.
• 14:12
  So
• 14:12
  you
• 14:12
  have
• 14:12
  to
• 14:12
  go
• 14:13
  with
• 14:13
  the
• 14:14
  average.
• 14:14
  I
• 14:15
  see.
• 14:15
  Or
• 14:15
  you
• 14:15
  could
• 14:15
  also
• 14:16
  say
• 14:16
  with
• 14:16
  Heidegger,
• 14:16
  that
• 14:17
  our
• 14:17
  freedom
• 14:17
  is
• 14:17
  framed
• 14:18
  exactly,
• 14:19
  that.
• 14:19
  We
• 14:19
  are
• 14:19
  not
• 14:19
  absolutely
• 14:20
  free
• 14:21
  that's
• 14:21
  the
• 14:22
  point.
• 14:22
  Yes.
• 14:23
  In
• 14:24
  your
• 14:24
  project
• 14:24
  here
• 14:25
  for
• 14:25
  the
• 14:25
  San
• 14:25
  Gallen
• 14:26
  Collegium,
• 14:26
  you
• 14:26
  suggested
• 14:27
  that
• 14:27
  we
• 14:27
  should
• 14:27
  go
• 14:27
  back
• 14:28
  to
• 14:28
  the
• 14:28
  Greeks
• 14:29
  and
• 14:29
  make
• 14:29
  distinctions
• 14:30
  concerning
• 14:31
  freedom
• 14:31
  that
• 14:32
  were
• 14:32
  at
• 14:32
  the
• 14:32
  center
• 14:32
  of
• 14:33
  the
• 14:33
  Greek
• 14:33
  culture.
• 14:34
  Could
• 14:34
  you
• 14:34
  name
• 14:34
  these
• 14:35
  three
• 14:35
  concepts
• 14:35
  and
• 14:36
  what
• 14:36
  they
• 14:36
  mean
• 14:37
  for
• 14:37
  present
• 14:38
  day
• 14:39
  liberalism
• 14:39
  and
• 14:39
  freedom?
• 14:40
  Yes,
• 14:41
  that's
• 14:41
  very
• 14:41
  important
• 14:42
  because
• 14:42
  of
• 14:42
  course,
• 14:42
  the
• 14:43
  Greeks
• 14:43
  are
• 14:43
  one
• 14:43
  of
• 14:43
  the
• 14:44
  main
• 14:44
  sources
• 14:44
  of
• 14:45
  our
• 14:45
  own
• 14:46
  culture
• 14:46
  and
• 14:46
  our
• 14:47
  own
• 14:47
  idea
• 14:47
  of
• 14:47
  freedom.
• 14:48
  And
• 14:48
  the
• 14:49
  three
• 14:49
  Greek
• 14:49
  words
• 14:50
  in
• 14:50
  that
• 14:50
  sense
• 14:51
  were
• 14:51
  autonomia,
• 14:52
  autarchia
• 14:53
  and
• 14:53
  eleuteria.
• 14:54
  Now,
• 14:55
  I
• 14:55
  don't
• 14:55
  speak
• 14:56
  or
• 14:56
  even
• 14:57
  learn
• 14:57
  Greek,
• 14:58
  but
• 14:58
  my
• 14:59
  history
• 14:59
  teacher,
• 15:00
  who
• 15:00
  was
• 15:00
  a
• 15:00
  teacher
• 15:01
  in
• 15:01
  a
• 15:01
  high
• 15:01
  school,
• 15:01
  and
• 15:02
  this
• 15:02
  was
• 15:02
  because
• 15:02
  he
• 15:03
  was
• 15:03
  thrown
• 15:03
  out
• 15:03
  of
• 15:03
  the
• 15:04
  university,
• 15:04
  he
• 15:04
  should
• 15:05
  have
• 15:05
  been
• 15:05
  teaching
• 15:05
  university
• 15:06
  under
• 15:07
  communism,
• 15:07
  but
• 15:07
  for
• 15:08
  my
• 15:08
  luck,
• 15:08
  he
• 15:08
  was
• 15:08
  teaching
• 15:09
  in
• 15:09
  high
• 15:09
  school.
• 15:10
  In
• 15:10
  communism,
• 15:11
  the
• 15:11
  best
• 15:11
  minds
• 15:12
  had
• 15:12
  to
• 15:12
  recede
• 15:12
  to
• 15:12
  school
• 15:13
  and
• 15:13
  not
• 15:13
  to
• 15:13
  university
• 15:14
  because
• 15:14
  they
• 15:14
  were
• 15:14
  not
• 15:14
  allowed
• 15:15
  there.
• 15:15
  Yeah,
• 15:15
  absolutely.
• 15:16
  I
• 15:16
  mean,
• 15:16
  when
• 15:16
  I
• 15:17
  went
• 15:17
  from
• 15:17
  my
• 15:17
  high
• 15:17
  school
• 15:18
  to
• 15:18
  university,
• 15:18
  it
• 15:19
  was
• 15:19
  a
• 15:19
  very
• 15:19
  serious
• 15:19
  drop
• 15:20
  of
• 15:20
  standards
• 15:21
  from
• 15:21
  my
• 15:21
  high
• 15:22
  school
• 15:22
  because
• 15:22
  I
• 15:22
  was
• 15:23
  in
• 15:23
  what
• 15:23
  was
• 15:23
  considered
• 15:24
  the
• 15:24
  best
• 15:24
  high
• 15:24
  school
• 15:24
  in
• 15:25
  Hungary,
• 15:25
  and
• 15:25
  it
• 15:25
  was
• 15:26
  populated
• 15:26
  by
• 15:26
  people
• 15:27
  who
• 15:27
  were
• 15:27
  not
• 15:27
  allowed
• 15:28
  to
• 15:28
  teach
• 15:28
  at
• 15:28
  the
• 15:29
  university.
• 15:29
  But
• 15:29
  going
• 15:30
  back
• 15:30
  to
• 15:30
  these
• 15:31
  three
• 15:31
  words.
• 15:31
  So
• 15:31
  these
• 15:31
  three
• 15:32
  words
• 15:32
  he
• 15:32
  taught
• 15:33
  us
• 15:33
  as
• 15:33
  the
• 15:33
  central
• 15:34
  words
• 15:34
  of
• 15:35
  Greek
• 15:35
  polis,
• 15:36
  or
• 15:36
  we
• 15:36
  call
• 15:36
  it
• 15:37
  democracy,
• 15:37
  but
• 15:38
  that's
• 15:38
  not
• 15:38
  exactly
• 15:38
  the
• 15:39
  way
• 15:39
  the
• 15:39
  Greeks
• 15:39
  called
• 15:40
  it.
• 15:40
  But
• 15:40
  anyway.
• 15:41
  And
• 15:41
  these
• 15:41
  three
• 15:41
  words
• 15:42
  could
• 15:42
  be
• 15:42
  traced
• 15:43
  to
• 15:43
  polybios,
• 15:44
  as
• 15:44
  far
• 15:44
  as
• 15:44
  I
• 15:44
  can
• 15:45
  make
• 15:45
  it
• 15:45
  out.
• 15:45
  But
• 15:45
  anyway,
• 15:46
  they
• 15:46
  make
• 15:46
  autonomy.
• 15:47
  Autonomy
• 15:48
  is
• 15:48
  like
• 15:48
  autonomy,
• 15:49
  except
• 15:49
  that
• 15:49
  autonomy
• 15:50
  meant
• 15:51
  etymologically
• 15:52
  and
• 15:52
  concretely
• 15:54
  something
• 15:54
  like
• 15:54
  sovereignty,
• 15:55
  that
• 15:55
  is
• 15:55
  the
• 15:55
  right
• 15:55
  to
• 15:56
  give
• 15:56
  your
• 15:57
  laws.
• 15:58
  So
• 15:59
  the
• 15:59
  city
• 16:00
  states,
• 16:00
  the
• 16:00
  policies,
• 16:01
  give
• 16:01
  their
• 16:01
  own
• 16:01
  laws.
• 16:02
  That
• 16:02
  was
• 16:02
  autonomy.
• 16:03
  Now,
• 16:03
  autarkia
• 16:04
  is
• 16:04
  the
• 16:04
  strangest
• 16:04
  for
• 16:05
  us
• 16:05
  because
• 16:05
  autarkia
• 16:06
  meant
• 16:06
  independence,
• 16:07
  kind
• 16:07
  of
• 16:07
  independent
• 16:08
  existence.
• 16:09
  So
• 16:09
  you
• 16:09
  as
• 16:09
  a
• 16:09
  police
• 16:10
  and
• 16:11
  every
• 16:11
  oikos
• 16:12
  basically
• 16:12
  had
• 16:13
  to
• 16:13
  produce
• 16:14
  its
• 16:14
  own
• 16:14
  living,
• 16:14
  not
• 16:15
  to
• 16:15
  be
• 16:15
  dependent
• 16:16
  on
• 16:16
  others.
• 16:16
  And
• 16:16
  eleuteria
• 16:17
  means
• 16:18
  freedom
• 16:19
  in
• 16:19
  a
• 16:19
  more
• 16:20
  broad
• 16:20
  sense
• 16:20
  as
• 16:21
  we
• 16:21
  mean
• 16:21
  it.
• 16:21
  Let
• 16:22
  me
• 16:22
  summarize
• 16:22
  that.
• 16:22
  Autonomia,
• 16:24
  to
• 16:24
  give
• 16:24
  a
• 16:24
  law
• 16:25
  to
• 16:25
  yourself,
• 16:26
  a
• 16:26
  norm
• 16:26
  to
• 16:27
  yourself,
• 16:27
  and
• 16:27
  follow
• 16:28
  that.
• 16:28
  Rule
• 16:28
  as
• 16:29
  a
• 16:29
  police,
• 16:30
  it
• 16:30
  was
• 16:30
  not
• 16:30
  an
• 16:30
  individual,
• 16:31
  as
• 16:31
  a
• 16:31
  politician.
• 16:32
  Autonomy
• 16:32
  is
• 16:32
  a
• 16:33
  kind
• 16:33
  of
• 16:33
  individualized,
• 16:34
  liberal
• 16:35
  version
• 16:35
  of
• 16:35
  this
• 16:35
  Greek.
• 16:37
  But
• 16:37
  the
• 16:37
  Greek
• 16:37
  didn't
• 16:37
  meant
• 16:38
  that
• 16:38
  you
• 16:39
  as
• 16:39
  a
• 16:39
  human
• 16:39
  being
• 16:39
  give
• 16:40
  your
• 16:40
  own
• 16:40
  laws.
• 16:40
  And
• 16:40
  you
• 16:41
  know,
• 16:41
  that
• 16:41
  doesn't
• 16:41
  even
• 16:42
  make
• 16:42
  any
• 16:42
  sense.
• 16:43
  We
• 16:43
  have
• 16:43
  to
• 16:43
  be
• 16:43
  careful.
• 16:44
  Yes,
• 16:44
  yes.
• 16:44
  So
• 16:44
  that
• 16:45
  would
• 16:45
  be
• 16:45
  autonomia
• 16:46
  in
• 16:46
  the
• 16:46
  Greek
• 16:46
  sense.
• 16:47
  Then
• 16:47
  there's
• 16:47
  autarkia,
• 16:48
  and
• 16:49
  that
• 16:49
  is
• 16:49
  a
• 16:49
  very
• 16:51
  radical
• 16:51
  idea
• 16:52
  of
• 16:52
  independence
• 16:54
  in
• 16:54
  the
• 16:55
  house
• 16:55
  and
• 16:55
  in
• 16:55
  the
• 16:55
  state.
• 16:56
  Exactly.
• 16:57
  And
• 16:57
  Then
• 16:57
  there's
• 16:57
  the
• 16:57
  last
• 16:58
  one.
• 16:58
  And
• 16:58
  that
• 16:58
  means
• 16:59
  to
• 16:59
  roam,
• 17:00
  to
• 17:00
  feel,
• 17:01
  to
• 17:01
  perceive
• 17:02
  yourself
• 17:03
  as
• 17:03
  a
• 17:03
  free
• 17:03
  human
• 17:03
  being,
• 17:04
  for
• 17:04
  example,
• 17:05
  in
• 17:05
  contrast
• 17:05
  to
• 17:05
  a
• 17:06
  slave.
• 17:07
  Well,
• 17:07
  that
• 17:07
  was
• 17:08
  certainly
• 17:08
  an
• 17:08
  important
• 17:09
  point
• 17:09
  there,
• 17:10
  but
• 17:11
  that's
• 17:11
  a
• 17:11
  very
• 17:11
  delicate
• 17:12
  point.
• 17:12
  What
• 17:12
  exactly
• 17:12
  meant
• 17:13
  to
• 17:13
  be
• 17:14
  a
• 17:14
  slave
• 17:14
  in
• 17:15
  Greek
• 17:16
  states,
• 17:16
  in
• 17:16
  Rome,
• 17:17
  and
• 17:17
  then
• 17:17
  it
• 17:17
  has
• 17:18
  nothing
• 17:18
  really
• 17:18
  to
• 17:18
  do
• 17:19
  with
• 17:19
  the
• 17:19
  later
• 17:20
  sort
• 17:20
  of
• 17:20
  American
• 17:21
  slavery
• 17:21
  kind
• 17:22
  of
• 17:22
  things,
• 17:22
  which
• 17:22
  is
• 17:22
  a
• 17:22
  completely
• 17:23
  different
• 17:24
  kind
• 17:24
  of
• 17:24
  idea,
• 17:24
  but
• 17:25
  whatever
• 17:25
  it
• 17:25
  means.
• 17:26
  But
• 17:27
  yeah.
• 17:27
  So
• 17:27
  what
• 17:27
  does
• 17:28
  it
• 17:28
  mean
• 17:28
  to
• 17:28
  be
• 17:28
  free?
• 17:29
  That's
• 17:29
  the
• 17:29
  main
• 17:30
  question,
• 17:30
  by
• 17:30
  the
• 17:30
  way.
• 17:31
  Yes,
• 17:31
  what
• 17:31
  does
• 17:32
  it
• 17:32
  mean
• 17:32
  to
• 17:32
  be
• 17:32
  free
• 17:33
  for
• 17:33
  us
• 17:33
  now,
• 17:33
  in
• 17:34
  our
• 17:35
  modern
• 17:35
  society,
• 17:36
  freedom
• 17:36
  is
• 17:36
  a
• 17:37
  concept
• 17:37
  that
• 17:37
  is
• 17:37
  applied
• 17:38
  to
• 17:38
  the
• 17:38
  individual,
• 17:39
  not
• 17:39
  to
• 17:39
  communities,
• 17:40
  not
• 17:40
  even
• 17:41
  to
• 17:41
  societies.
• 17:42
  But
• 17:42
  the
• 17:42
  individual
• 17:43
  has
• 17:43
  to
• 17:43
  be
• 17:43
  free.
• 17:44
  That's
• 17:44
  actually
• 17:45
  somewhat
• 17:46
  strange,
• 17:46
  but
• 17:46
  it
• 17:46
  is
• 17:47
  that
• 17:47
  way.
• 17:47
  And
• 17:47
  then,
• 17:48
  of
• 17:48
  course,
• 17:48
  there
• 17:48
  are
• 17:48
  different
• 17:49
  ways
• 17:49
  to
• 17:49
  be
• 17:49
  free.
• 17:50
  For
• 17:50
  example,
• 17:51
  one
• 17:51
  way
• 17:51
  to
• 17:52
  frame
• 17:53
  the
• 17:53
  concept
• 17:53
  of
• 17:53
  freedom
• 17:54
  is
• 17:54
  I
• 17:54
  can
• 17:54
  do
• 17:55
  whatever
• 17:55
  I
• 17:55
  want.
• 17:57
  I'm
• 17:57
  free
• 17:57
  if
• 17:58
  I'm
• 17:58
  able
• 17:58
  to
• 17:58
  do
• 17:58
  that.
• 17:59
  No
• 17:59
  one
• 17:59
  knows
• 17:59
  what
• 17:59
  that
• 18:00
  exactly
• 18:00
  means,
• 18:00
  but
• 18:00
  that's
• 18:01
  one
• 18:01
  idea.
• 18:01
  The
• 18:02
  second
• 18:02
  idea
• 18:03
  is
• 18:03
  I
• 18:04
  become
• 18:04
  myself,
• 18:05
  I
• 18:05
  find
• 18:06
  my
• 18:06
  true
• 18:06
  self,
• 18:07
  and
• 18:07
  then
• 18:07
  I'm
• 18:07
  free.
• 18:08
  And
• 18:08
  the
• 18:08
  last
• 18:09
  idea
• 18:09
  is
• 18:10
  probably
• 18:10
  I'm
• 18:10
  just
• 18:11
  being
• 18:11
  free.
• 18:12
  I'm
• 18:12
  not
• 18:12
  constrained
• 18:13
  by
• 18:13
  anyone.
• 18:14
  Are
• 18:14
  those
• 18:15
  really
• 18:17
  meaningful
• 18:17
  concepts
• 18:18
  of
• 18:18
  freedom
• 18:18
  to
• 18:18
  your
• 18:19
  mind?
• 18:20
  Well,
• 18:20
  in
• 18:21
  my
• 18:21
  view,
• 18:21
  these
• 18:21
  are
• 18:21
  problematic
• 18:22
  views
• 18:23
  of
• 18:23
  freedom.
• 18:24
  But
• 18:24
  this
• 18:25
  requires
• 18:25
  a
• 18:26
  kind
• 18:26
  of
• 18:26
  contextualization
• 18:27
  of
• 18:28
  the
• 18:28
  entire
• 18:28
  idea
• 18:28
  of
• 18:29
  freedom.
• 18:29
  And
• 18:29
  here
• 18:29
  I
• 18:29
  can
• 18:29
  only
• 18:30
  give
• 18:30
  some
• 18:31
  ideas
• 18:31
  about
• 18:31
  the
• 18:32
  research
• 18:32
  which
• 18:32
  I'm
• 18:33
  not
• 18:33
  doing.
• 18:33
  So
• 18:33
  they
• 18:34
  are
• 18:34
  very
• 18:35
  provisional.
• 18:36
  And
• 18:37
  I
• 18:37
  would
• 18:37
  start
• 18:37
  by
• 18:38
  saying
• 18:38
  that,
• 18:39
  that
• 18:39
  we
• 18:39
  connect
• 18:40
  this
• 18:40
  freedom
• 18:41
  very
• 18:41
  much
• 18:41
  to
• 18:41
  the
• 18:42
  economy.
• 18:42
  So
• 18:42
  individualism
• 18:43
  and
• 18:43
  indivisible
• 18:44
  economy,
• 18:44
  you
• 18:44
  do
• 18:44
  whatever
• 18:45
  you
• 18:45
  want.
• 18:45
  You
• 18:46
  can
• 18:46
  do
• 18:46
  your
• 18:46
  own
• 18:46
  business,
• 18:47
  you
• 18:48
  make
• 18:48
  contracts
• 18:48
  with
• 18:49
  whomever
• 18:50
  you
• 18:50
  want.
• 18:51
  And
• 18:52
  the
• 18:52
  basic
• 18:53
  point,
• 18:53
  as
• 18:53
  I
• 18:53
  see,
• 18:54
  is
• 18:54
  that
• 18:54
  this
• 18:54
  freedom
• 18:56
  replaces
• 18:57
  a
• 18:58
  kind
• 18:58
  of
• 18:58
  living
• 18:58
  in
• 18:59
  nature
• 19:00
  with
• 19:00
  living
• 19:01
  inside
• 19:02
  an
• 19:02
  economy.
• 19:03
  And
• 19:04
  this
• 19:04
  living
• 19:04
  inside
• 19:05
  the
• 19:05
  economy
• 19:05
  is
• 19:06
  part
• 19:06
  of
• 19:06
  a.
• 19:07
  A
• 19:07
  general
• 19:08
  problematization
• 19:09
  of
• 19:09
  nature,
• 19:09
  meaning
• 19:10
  that
• 19:10
  we
• 19:10
  as
• 19:10
  humans
• 19:11
  are
• 19:11
  enslaved
• 19:12
  to
• 19:12
  nature.
• 19:14
  And
• 19:14
  what
• 19:14
  we
• 19:14
  need
• 19:15
  to
• 19:15
  do
• 19:15
  is
• 19:15
  to
• 19:15
  liberate
• 19:16
  ourselves
• 19:17
  from
• 19:17
  the
• 19:17
  slavery
• 19:18
  from
• 19:18
  nature.
• 19:18
  So
• 19:19
  it's
• 19:19
  very
• 19:19
  simple.
• 19:19
  So
• 19:20
  now
• 19:20
  the,
• 19:20
  you
• 19:20
  know,
• 19:20
  the
• 19:20
  sun
• 19:21
  is
• 19:21
  shining,
• 19:21
  but
• 19:22
  if
• 19:22
  it
• 19:22
  is
• 19:22
  raining,
• 19:23
  then
• 19:23
  we
• 19:23
  need
• 19:24
  a
• 19:24
  shelter,
• 19:24
  isn't
• 19:24
  it?
• 19:25
  So
• 19:25
  we
• 19:25
  go
• 19:25
  inside
• 19:26
  the
• 19:26
  house,
• 19:26
  and
• 19:27
  that
• 19:27
  is
• 19:27
  to
• 19:27
  be
• 19:27
  free
• 19:28
  from
• 19:28
  nature.
• 19:30
  And
• 19:30
  now
• 19:30
  this
• 19:30
  is
• 19:30
  very
• 19:30
  simple
• 19:31
  insofar
• 19:31
  as
• 19:32
  we
• 19:32
  turn
• 19:32
  into
• 19:34
  weather
• 19:34
  things
• 19:34
  and
• 19:35
  other
• 19:35
  matters.
• 19:36
  But
• 19:36
  I
• 19:36
  think
• 19:36
  deeply
• 19:37
  in
• 19:37
  the
• 19:37
  modern,
• 19:39
  whatever
• 19:39
  you
• 19:39
  call
• 19:39
  it,
• 19:39
  mentally,
• 19:40
  mindset,
• 19:41
  maybe
• 19:41
  mindset,
• 19:42
  there
• 19:42
  is
• 19:42
  a
• 19:43
  hostility
• 19:43
  to
• 19:44
  nature.
• 19:44
  So
• 19:44
  the
• 19:44
  basic
• 19:45
  point
• 19:45
  is
• 19:45
  to
• 19:45
  close
• 19:45
  out
• 19:46
  nature
• 19:46
  as
• 19:46
  much
• 19:47
  as
• 19:47
  Possible
• 19:47
  to.
• 19:48
  Deny
• 19:48
  its
• 19:49
  existence
• 19:49
  and
• 19:49
  its
• 19:50
  importance.
• 19:50
  Exactly.
• 19:51
  And
• 19:51
  then
• 19:51
  we
• 19:51
  live
• 19:52
  inside
• 19:52
  our
• 19:52
  own
• 19:53
  houses
• 19:53
  and
• 19:54
  buildings
• 19:54
  and
• 19:54
  everything,
• 19:55
  free
• 19:55
  from
• 19:55
  nature.
• 19:56
  The
• 19:56
  problem
• 19:57
  is
• 19:57
  that
• 19:57
  this
• 19:57
  makes
• 19:58
  us
• 19:58
  a
• 19:58
  slave
• 19:58
  to
• 19:59
  technology
• 19:59
  in
• 19:59
  my
• 20:00
  reading.
• 20:00
  And
• 20:01
  that
• 20:01
  is
• 20:01
  a
• 20:01
  basic
• 20:02
  problem.
• 20:02
  So
• 20:02
  there's
• 20:02
  a
• 20:03
  dialectics.
• 20:03
  Once
• 20:04
  you
• 20:04
  try
• 20:04
  to
• 20:04
  free
• 20:04
  yourself,
• 20:05
  yourself
• 20:05
  from
• 20:05
  nature,
• 20:06
  you
• 20:06
  become
• 20:06
  a
• 20:06
  slave
• 20:06
  to
• 20:07
  technology.
• 20:07
  Something
• 20:08
  like
• 20:08
  that.
• 20:08
  Yes,
• 20:09
  yes,
• 20:09
  interesting.
• 20:09
  And
• 20:10
  so
• 20:10
  this
• 20:10
  is
• 20:10
  why
• 20:11
  I
• 20:11
  introduce
• 20:12
  sort
• 20:13
  of
• 20:13
  my
• 20:14
  approach
• 20:14
  or
• 20:15
  my
• 20:15
  path
• 20:15
  to
• 20:16
  freedom
• 20:17
  is
• 20:17
  like
• 20:18
  freedom
• 20:18
  means
• 20:19
  living,
• 20:20
  living
• 20:21
  with
• 20:21
  a
• 20:22
  degree
• 20:22
  of
• 20:22
  freedom.
• 20:22
  So
• 20:23
  living
• 20:23
  free.
• 20:23
  So
• 20:24
  like
• 20:24
  working
• 20:24
  free.
• 20:25
  Then
• 20:25
  you,
• 20:25
  you
• 20:26
  know,
• 20:26
  you
• 20:26
  work
• 20:26
  and
• 20:26
  you
• 20:26
  are
• 20:27
  not
• 20:27
  free
• 20:27
  to
• 20:28
  work
• 20:28
  anywhere
• 20:28
  because
• 20:29
  you
• 20:29
  are
• 20:29
  not
• 20:29
  free
• 20:29
  to
• 20:29
  work
• 20:30
  on
• 20:30
  water.
• 20:31
  Very
• 20:31
  few
• 20:32
  persons
• 20:32
  can
• 20:33
  walk
• 20:33
  on
• 20:33
  water.
• 20:34
  Yes.
• 20:35
  So
• 20:35
  you're
• 20:35
  not
• 20:35
  free
• 20:36
  to
• 20:36
  walk
• 20:36
  anywhere
• 20:37
  you
• 20:37
  want.
• 20:38
  But
• 20:38
  you
• 20:38
  know,
• 20:38
  there
• 20:38
  is
• 20:39
  nature
• 20:39
  and
• 20:39
  nature
• 20:40
  is
• 20:40
  really
• 20:40
  outside
• 20:41
  us.
• 20:42
  So
• 20:42
  it's
• 20:42
  kind
• 20:42
  of
• 20:42
  a
• 20:42
  confined
• 20:43
  freedom,
• 20:44
  but
• 20:44
  confined,
• 20:44
  for
• 20:45
  example,
• 20:45
  by
• 20:45
  the
• 20:45
  laws
• 20:46
  of
• 20:46
  nature,
• 20:46
  maybe
• 20:47
  by
• 20:47
  some
• 20:47
  traits
• 20:48
  of
• 20:48
  the
• 20:48
  human
• 20:49
  creature
• 20:49
  as
• 20:50
  such.
• 20:50
  And
• 20:51
  if
• 20:51
  I
• 20:51
  understand
• 20:52
  you
• 20:52
  correctly,
• 20:53
  you
• 20:53
  think
• 20:53
  it's
• 20:54
  part
• 20:54
  of
• 20:54
  the
• 20:54
  problem
• 20:55
  of
• 20:55
  the
• 20:55
  modern
• 20:56
  mindset
• 20:57
  that
• 20:57
  we
• 20:57
  have
• 20:57
  enslaved
• 20:58
  us
• 20:58
  to
• 20:58
  technology
• 20:59
  in
• 21:00
  order
• 21:00
  to
• 21:00
  become
• 21:00
  free
• 21:01
  from
• 21:01
  nature.
• 21:01
  And
• 21:02
  both
• 21:02
  movements
• 21:03
  are
• 21:03
  dangerous
• 21:04
  and
• 21:04
  we
• 21:04
  could
• 21:04
  even
• 21:04
  say
• 21:05
  today
• 21:05
  devastating
• 21:06
  ecologically.
• 21:07
  Absolutely.
• 21:07
  And
• 21:08
  this
• 21:08
  is
• 21:08
  where
• 21:08
  we
• 21:08
  turn
• 21:08
  to
• 21:09
  reason,
• 21:09
  which
• 21:09
  is
• 21:09
  such
• 21:10
  an
• 21:10
  important
• 21:10
  question
• 21:11
  anthropologically
• 21:12
  and
• 21:12
  philosophically.
• 21:13
  Because
• 21:13
  reason
• 21:14
  sort
• 21:15
  of
• 21:15
  originally
• 21:15
  meant
• 21:16
  to
• 21:17
  be
• 21:17
  aware
• 21:17
  of
• 21:17
  our
• 21:18
  own
• 21:18
  limitations.
• 21:19
  So
• 21:19
  like
• 21:19
  nature,
• 21:20
  sort
• 21:20
  of
• 21:21
  reasonable,
• 21:21
  life
• 21:22
  meant
• 21:22
  that,
• 21:22
  you
• 21:22
  know,
• 21:22
  there
• 21:23
  is
• 21:23
  nature
• 21:23
  around.
• 21:23
  So
• 21:24
  you
• 21:25
  need
• 21:25
  to
• 21:25
  know,
• 21:26
  you
• 21:26
  need
• 21:26
  to
• 21:26
  navigate
• 21:27
  your
• 21:27
  weight.
• 21:27
  I
• 21:27
  mean,
• 21:27
  you
• 21:27
  cannot
• 21:28
  do
• 21:28
  anything
• 21:28
  because
• 21:29
  nature
• 21:29
  is
• 21:30
  giving
• 21:31
  you
• 21:31
  some
• 21:31
  trouble
• 21:31
  about
• 21:32
  that.
• 21:32
  And
• 21:32
  we
• 21:32
  replace
• 21:33
  that
• 21:33
  with
• 21:33
  rationality,
• 21:35
  which
• 21:35
  is
• 21:35
  not
• 21:35
  the
• 21:35
  same
• 21:35
  thing.
• 21:36
  I
• 21:36
  mean,
• 21:37
  whatever
• 21:38
  it
• 21:38
  etymological
• 21:38
  it
• 21:39
  goes
• 21:39
  by,
• 21:39
  rationality
• 21:40
  means
• 21:40
  that
• 21:41
  by
• 21:41
  using
• 21:41
  the
• 21:41
  technology
• 21:42
  and
• 21:42
  exchanging
• 21:43
  everything
• 21:43
  through
• 21:43
  the
• 21:44
  economy,
• 21:44
  then
• 21:45
  we
• 21:45
  optimize
• 21:46
  our
• 21:46
  supposed
• 21:47
  well
• 21:47
  being
• 21:48
  and
• 21:48
  freedom.
• 21:49
  But
• 21:49
  it
• 21:49
  doesn't
• 21:50
  do
• 21:50
  that
• 21:50
  because
• 21:50
  again,
• 21:51
  it
• 21:51
  enslaves
• 21:52
  you
• 21:52
  in
• 21:52
  a
• 21:52
  very
• 21:53
  trivial
• 21:53
  way
• 21:53
  to
• 21:53
  technology.
• 21:54
  This
• 21:54
  is
• 21:54
  so
• 21:54
  super
• 21:55
  interesting,
• 21:55
  Arpat.
• 21:56
  Let
• 21:56
  me
• 21:56
  just
• 21:56
  try
• 21:57
  to
• 21:57
  rephrase
• 21:57
  it.
• 21:58
  So
• 21:58
  in
• 21:58
  English
• 21:58
  language,
• 21:59
  there
• 21:59
  is
• 21:59
  a
• 22:00
  difference
• 22:00
  between
• 22:01
  being
• 22:01
  reasonable
• 22:02
  and
• 22:02
  being
• 22:02
  rational,
• 22:03
  which
• 22:03
  is
• 22:04
  very
• 22:04
  interesting
• 22:04
  in
• 22:04
  itself.
• 22:05
  And
• 22:05
  you
• 22:05
  claim
• 22:06
  that
• 22:06
  being
• 22:06
  reasonable
• 22:07
  is
• 22:08
  accepting
• 22:08
  and
• 22:09
  acknowledging
• 22:09
  the
• 22:09
  limits
• 22:10
  that
• 22:10
  are
• 22:10
  given
• 22:10
  to
• 22:11
  us
• 22:11
  by
• 22:12
  our
• 22:12
  very
• 22:13
  existence.
• 22:14
  And
• 22:14
  the
• 22:15
  rationality
• 22:15
  is
• 22:16
  kind
• 22:16
  of
• 22:16
  a
• 22:16
  logic
• 22:16
  of
• 22:17
  limitlessness
• 22:18
  that
• 22:18
  is
• 22:18
  embodied
• 22:19
  today
• 22:19
  mainly
• 22:20
  by
• 22:20
  market
• 22:20
  logics.
• 22:21
  Yes,
• 22:21
  yes,
• 22:21
  it's
• 22:22
  something
• 22:22
  like
• 22:22
  that.
• 22:22
  I
• 22:23
  mean,
• 22:23
  of
• 22:23
  course
• 22:23
  rationality
• 22:24
  is
• 22:24
  a
• 22:24
  Latin
• 22:25
  word,
• 22:25
  and
• 22:25
  in
• 22:27
  Latin
• 22:27
  it
• 22:27
  meant
• 22:28
  something
• 22:28
  very,
• 22:28
  very
• 22:28
  different
• 22:29
  because
• 22:29
  it
• 22:29
  meant
• 22:30
  ratio
• 22:30
  and
• 22:30
  ratio
• 22:31
  meant
• 22:31
  a
• 22:31
  kind
• 22:32
  of
• 22:32
  harmony.
• 22:33
  So
• 22:33
  the
• 22:33
  problem
• 22:33
  is
• 22:33
  not
• 22:34
  with
• 22:34
  the
• 22:34
  world,
• 22:35
  but
• 22:35
  the
• 22:35
  problem
• 22:35
  is
• 22:36
  what
• 22:36
  we
• 22:36
  did
• 22:37
  with
• 22:37
  the
• 22:37
  world.
• 22:38
  And
• 22:38
  this
• 22:38
  is
• 22:39
  a
• 22:39
  consequence
• 22:40
  of
• 22:40
  a
• 22:40
  certain
• 22:40
  kind
• 22:41
  of
• 22:41
  liberal
• 22:42
  economic
• 22:43
  idea
• 22:44
  about
• 22:45
  rationality.
• 22:46
  And
• 22:46
  that
• 22:46
  somehow
• 22:47
  in
• 22:47
  this
• 22:48
  again,
• 22:49
  free
• 22:49
  market,
• 22:49
  whatever
• 22:50
  setting,
• 22:51
  rationally
• 22:52
  we
• 22:52
  can
• 22:52
  optimize
• 22:54
  individually
• 22:55
  and
• 22:56
  somehow
• 22:56
  magically
• 22:57
  these
• 22:57
  individual
• 22:58
  things
• 22:58
  through
• 22:59
  the
• 22:59
  market
• 22:59
  become
• 23:00
  a
• 23:00
  so.
• 23:00
  And
• 23:01
  that
• 23:01
  just
• 23:01
  doesn't
• 23:01
  work.
• 23:02
  And
• 23:02
  you
• 23:03
  see,
• 23:03
  if
• 23:03
  you
• 23:03
  look
• 23:03
  for
• 23:03
  example
• 23:03
  at
• 23:04
  commercials,
• 23:04
  this
• 23:05
  idea
• 23:05
  of
• 23:05
  limitlessness
• 23:06
  and
• 23:07
  possibilities
• 23:08
  reigning
• 23:09
  everywhere,
• 23:09
  it's
• 23:09
  everywhere.
• 23:10
  You
• 23:10
  could
• 23:10
  say,
• 23:10
  for
• 23:10
  example,
• 23:11
  Toyota
• 23:11
  says
• 23:12
  nothing
• 23:12
  is
• 23:12
  impossible.
• 23:13
  Or
• 23:14
  if
• 23:14
  you
• 23:14
  go
• 23:14
  now
• 23:15
  to
• 23:15
  a
• 23:15
  hotel,
• 23:16
  you
• 23:16
  say
• 23:16
  go
• 23:17
  wherever
• 23:17
  you
• 23:17
  want
• 23:18
  to
• 23:18
  go.
• 23:19
  It
• 23:19
  means
• 23:19
  for
• 23:20
  me
• 23:20
  that
• 23:20
  the
• 23:20
  modern
• 23:20
  mindset
• 23:21
  or
• 23:21
  our
• 23:21
  contemporary
• 23:22
  mindset
• 23:23
  is
• 23:23
  marked
• 23:24
  by
• 23:24
  the
• 23:24
  promise
• 23:24
  of
• 23:25
  limitlessness
• 23:26
  and
• 23:27
  therefore
• 23:27
  it's
• 23:27
  highly
• 23:27
  unreasonable.
• 23:28
  If
• 23:28
  I
• 23:28
  understand
• 23:29
  you
• 23:29
  correctly.
• 23:29
  Absolutely,
• 23:30
  that
• 23:30
  is
• 23:30
  certainly
• 23:31
  the
• 23:31
  case.
• 23:31
  And
• 23:31
  this
• 23:32
  logic
• 23:33
  of
• 23:33
  the
• 23:33
  commercials
• 23:34
  is
• 23:35
  a
• 23:35
  very
• 23:35
  important
• 23:35
  part
• 23:36
  of
• 23:36
  our
• 23:37
  misunderstanding
• 23:38
  of
• 23:38
  ourselves,
• 23:39
  which
• 23:39
  is
• 23:39
  much
• 23:40
  located
• 23:40
  in
• 23:41
  economic
• 23:41
  theory,
• 23:42
  because
• 23:42
  let's
• 23:42
  not
• 23:42
  forget
• 23:43
  that
• 23:43
  I
• 23:43
  have
• 23:43
  a
• 23:43
  PhD
• 23:44
  in
• 23:44
  economics,
• 23:44
  so
• 23:45
  I
• 23:45
  know
• 23:45
  what
• 23:45
  economics
• 23:46
  is
• 23:46
  talking
• 23:46
  about.
• 23:47
  And
• 23:47
  economics
• 23:47
  is
• 23:47
  talking
• 23:48
  about
• 23:48
  the
• 23:49
  rational
• 23:49
  choice,
• 23:50
  the
• 23:50
  rational
• 23:50
  consumer
• 23:51
  and
• 23:52
  information
• 23:53
  which
• 23:53
  is
• 23:53
  available.
• 23:54
  It's
• 23:55
  so
• 23:55
  strange,
• 23:55
  you
• 23:55
  know,
• 23:55
  there
• 23:56
  is
• 23:56
  no
• 23:56
  reasonable
• 23:57
  choice
• 23:57
  theory,
• 23:58
  there's
• 23:58
  only
• 23:58
  a
• 23:58
  rational
• 23:59
  choice
• 23:59
  theory.
• 24:00
  Yes,
• 24:00
  because
• 24:00
  that
• 24:01
  word
• 24:01
  has
• 24:01
  become
• 24:02
  so
• 24:02
  much
• 24:02
  associated
• 24:03
  into
• 24:03
  this
• 24:03
  type
• 24:04
  of
• 24:05
  logic,
• 24:05
  which
• 24:06
  is
• 24:06
  a
• 24:07
  illogical
• 24:07
  logic,
• 24:08
  which
• 24:08
  is
• 24:08
  in
• 24:08
  a
• 24:08
  way
• 24:08
  even
• 24:09
  a
• 24:09
  kind
• 24:09
  of
• 24:09
  perverted
• 24:10
  logic.
• 24:10
  I
• 24:10
  mean,
• 24:10
  how
• 24:10
  can
• 24:11
  anybody
• 24:11
  say
• 24:11
  that
• 24:12
  commercials
• 24:13
  give
• 24:13
  rational
• 24:13
  information
• 24:14
  to
• 24:14
  the
• 24:14
  consumer?
• 24:15
  This
• 24:15
  is
• 24:15
  what
• 24:15
  economist
• 24:16
  is
• 24:16
  saying.
• 24:16
  I
• 24:16
  mean,
• 24:16
  look
• 24:17
  up
• 24:17
  your
• 24:17
  economic
• 24:17
  theory
• 24:18
  books,
• 24:19
  rational
• 24:19
  information
• 24:20
  nonsense.
• 24:24
  And
• 24:24
  now
• 24:24
  I
• 24:25
  think
• 24:25
  we
• 24:25
  already
• 24:25
  have
• 24:25
  come
• 24:26
  a
• 24:26
  long
• 24:26
  way
• 24:27
  to
• 24:27
  understand
• 24:27
  why
• 24:28
  your
• 24:28
  current
• 24:29
  project
• 24:29
  here
• 24:30
  at
• 24:30
  the
• 24:30
  St.
• 24:30
  Gallen
• 24:31
  Collegium
• 24:31
  is
• 24:32
  named
• 24:33
  Beyond
• 24:33
  Liberalism.
• 24:34
  Because
• 24:35
  the
• 24:35
  very
• 24:35
  idea
• 24:36
  of
• 24:36
  liberalism
• 24:36
  and
• 24:37
  a
• 24:37
  liberal
• 24:37
  democracy
• 24:38
  is
• 24:38
  linked
• 24:38
  to
• 24:39
  certain
• 24:39
  understandings
• 24:40
  of
• 24:40
  what
• 24:41
  economy
• 24:41
  is.
• 24:42
  First
• 24:42
  of
• 24:42
  all,
• 24:42
  a
• 24:42
  liberal
• 24:43
  democracy
• 24:43
  is
• 24:43
  a
• 24:44
  democracy,
• 24:44
  of
• 24:45
  course,
• 24:45
  where
• 24:45
  you
• 24:45
  have
• 24:45
  certain
• 24:45
  institutions,
• 24:46
  you
• 24:47
  have
• 24:47
  human
• 24:47
  rights,
• 24:48
  you
• 24:48
  have
• 24:48
  a
• 24:49
  focus
• 24:49
  on
• 24:49
  the
• 24:49
  individual,
• 24:50
  and
• 24:50
  you
• 24:51
  seek,
• 24:51
  if
• 24:51
  I
• 24:51
  understand
• 24:52
  you
• 24:52
  correctly,
• 24:53
  a
• 24:54
  way
• 24:54
  out
• 24:54
  of
• 24:54
  that
• 24:55
  impasse
• 24:55
  that
• 24:56
  is
• 24:56
  created
• 24:56
  by
• 24:57
  liberalism
• 24:58
  as
• 24:58
  we
• 24:58
  know
• 24:58
  it.
• 24:59
  Yes,
• 25:00
  one
• 25:00
  has
• 25:00
  to
• 25:00
  be
• 25:01
  very,
• 25:01
  very
• 25:01
  careful
• 25:01
  with
• 25:01
  this
• 25:02
  because
• 25:03
  there
• 25:03
  are
• 25:04
  many
• 25:04
  elements
• 25:04
  of
• 25:05
  this
• 25:05
  liberal
• 25:05
  democratic
• 25:06
  framework,
• 25:07
  constitutionalism
• 25:08
  and
• 25:09
  so
• 25:09
  on,
• 25:09
  which
• 25:09
  were
• 25:09
  developed
• 25:10
  historically
• 25:11
  and
• 25:11
  which
• 25:13
  have
• 25:13
  much,
• 25:14
  much
• 25:14
  older
• 25:15
  background
• 25:16
  to
• 25:16
  that,
• 25:17
  which
• 25:17
  is
• 25:17
  not
• 25:18
  to
• 25:18
  be
• 25:18
  taken
• 25:19
  lightly
• 25:19
  and
• 25:19
  certain
• 25:20
  to
• 25:20
  be
• 25:21
  thrown
• 25:21
  away.
• 25:22
  But
• 25:23
  part
• 25:24
  of
• 25:24
  this
• 25:24
  liberal
• 25:25
  mindset
• 25:27
  became
• 25:27
  a
• 25:28
  series
• 25:28
  of
• 25:28
  ideas.
• 25:29
  And
• 25:29
  this
• 25:29
  is
• 25:30
  a
• 25:30
  very
• 25:30
  complex
• 25:31
  historical
• 25:32
  process.
• 25:32
  And
• 25:33
  what
• 25:33
  the
• 25:33
  general
• 25:34
  of
• 25:34
  liberalism,
• 25:36
  which
• 25:36
  have
• 25:36
  become
• 25:37
  problematic
• 25:37
  and
• 25:38
  which
• 25:38
  we
• 25:38
  see
• 25:38
  it
• 25:38
  now,
• 25:39
  it
• 25:39
  is
• 25:39
  problematic
• 25:40
  concerning
• 25:40
  the
• 25:40
  very
• 25:41
  idea
• 25:41
  of
• 25:41
  representation.
• 25:42
  So
• 25:42
  what
• 25:43
  do
• 25:43
  we
• 25:43
  mean
• 25:43
  by
• 25:43
  representation?
• 25:44
  It's
• 25:44
  an
• 25:44
  enormous
• 25:45
  question
• 25:45
  of
• 25:46
  our
• 25:46
  democracies.
• 25:47
  Are
• 25:47
  marked
• 25:47
  by
• 25:48
  the
• 25:48
  Representational
• 25:49
  logic,
• 25:49
  for
• 25:49
  example.
• 25:49
  Exactly,
• 25:50
  representational
• 25:51
  logic.
• 25:51
  But
• 25:51
  then
• 25:51
  if
• 25:51
  we
• 25:51
  look
• 25:52
  into
• 25:52
  the
• 25:52
  origin
• 25:53
  of
• 25:53
  representation,
• 25:54
  the
• 25:54
  origin
• 25:54
  of
• 25:54
  representation,
• 25:55
  the
• 25:55
  very
• 25:56
  word
• 25:56
  is
• 25:56
  theatrical.
• 25:57
  And
• 25:58
  this
• 25:58
  is,
• 25:58
  for
• 25:58
  example,
• 25:59
  what
• 25:59
  is
• 25:59
  continuously
• 26:00
  being
• 26:00
  forgotten.
• 26:01
  That
• 26:02
  the
• 26:02
  public
• 26:02
  sphere
• 26:03
  means
• 26:04
  representation,
• 26:05
  but
• 26:05
  it
• 26:05
  also
• 26:06
  means
• 26:06
  a
• 26:06
  kind
• 26:06
  of
• 26:07
  theatricality.
• 26:08
  And
• 26:08
  that
• 26:09
  is
• 26:09
  one
• 26:09
  of
• 26:09
  the
• 26:10
  problem.
• 26:10
  Then
• 26:10
  the
• 26:11
  other
• 26:11
  problem
• 26:11
  is
• 26:11
  this
• 26:12
  strange
• 26:13
  kind
• 26:13
  of
• 26:13
  individualism,
• 26:14
  which
• 26:15
  in
• 26:16
  one
• 26:16
  way
• 26:16
  ignores
• 26:17
  the
• 26:17
  cultural
• 26:18
  social
• 26:19
  community.
• 26:19
  But
• 26:20
  then
• 26:20
  on
• 26:20
  the
• 26:20
  other
• 26:20
  hand,
• 26:20
  it
• 26:21
  ignores
• 26:21
  in
• 26:22
  a
• 26:22
  certain
• 26:22
  way
• 26:22
  the
• 26:23
  very
• 26:23
  personal
• 26:23
  element
• 26:24
  of
• 26:24
  that,
• 26:24
  because
• 26:24
  it's
• 26:24
  a
• 26:25
  very
• 26:25
  specific
• 26:25
  kind
• 26:26
  of
• 26:26
  individual
• 26:27
  which
• 26:27
  is
• 26:27
  supposedly
• 26:28
  represented.
• 26:29
  And
• 26:29
  this
• 26:29
  is
• 26:30
  important
• 26:30
  in
• 26:30
  terms
• 26:31
  of
• 26:31
  AI,
• 26:31
  because
• 26:32
  the
• 26:32
  AI
• 26:33
  enforces
• 26:34
  the
• 26:34
  same
• 26:35
  statistical,
• 26:36
  average
• 26:37
  kind
• 26:37
  of
• 26:37
  individual.
• 26:38
  So
• 26:38
  if
• 26:38
  you
• 26:38
  think
• 26:38
  like
• 26:39
  anybody
• 26:39
  else,
• 26:39
  if
• 26:40
  you
• 26:40
  like
• 26:40
  what
• 26:40
  anybody
• 26:41
  else,
• 26:41
  then
• 26:41
  you,
• 26:41
  you
• 26:42
  are
• 26:42
  fine.
• 26:42
  But
• 26:42
  the
• 26:43
  moment
• 26:43
  in
• 26:43
  which
• 26:43
  you
• 26:44
  don't
• 26:44
  exactly
• 26:45
  follow
• 26:45
  this
• 26:45
  type
• 26:46
  of
• 26:46
  norms
• 26:46
  and
• 26:47
  fashions,
• 26:47
  then
• 26:47
  you,
• 26:48
  you
• 26:48
  are
• 26:49
  not,
• 26:49
  not
• 26:49
  suited
• 26:50
  by
• 26:50
  the
• 26:50
  artificial
• 26:51
  intelligence.
• 26:51
  If
• 26:51
  you
• 26:51
  think
• 26:52
  like
• 26:52
  anybody,
• 26:52
  then
• 26:52
  the.
• 26:53
  You
• 26:54
  write
• 26:54
  an
• 26:54
  email
• 26:54
  and
• 26:55
  the
• 26:55
  thing
• 26:55
  tells
• 26:56
  you
• 26:56
  what
• 26:56
  you
• 26:56
  write.
• 26:57
  But
• 26:57
  if
• 26:57
  you
• 26:57
  don't
• 26:58
  write
• 26:58
  that,
• 26:59
  then
• 27:00
  it
• 27:00
  can
• 27:00
  easily
• 27:00
  mislead
• 27:01
  you
• 27:01
  or
• 27:01
  gives
• 27:02
  you
• 27:02
  the
• 27:02
  wrong
• 27:02
  message.
• 27:03
  And
• 27:03
  yet
• 27:03
  art,
• 27:03
  but
• 27:04
  our
• 27:04
  entire
• 27:04
  culture
• 27:05
  is
• 27:05
  based
• 27:05
  on
• 27:06
  the
• 27:06
  idea
• 27:07
  stand
• 27:07
  out,
• 27:08
  make
• 27:08
  a
• 27:08
  difference,
• 27:09
  be
• 27:10
  different.
• 27:10
  It
• 27:11
  sounds
• 27:11
  like
• 27:11
  a
• 27:12
  quandary,
• 27:12
  like
• 27:12
  a
• 27:12
  paradox
• 27:13
  of
• 27:13
  our
• 27:13
  system.
• 27:14
  Yes,
• 27:14
  it
• 27:14
  is
• 27:15
  very
• 27:15
  paradoxical,
• 27:16
  but
• 27:16
  it's
• 27:16
  very
• 27:17
  schismatic
• 27:17
  in
• 27:17
  a
• 27:18
  way.
• 27:18
  And
• 27:18
  this
• 27:18
  is
• 27:18
  where
• 27:18
  another
• 27:19
  anthropological
• 27:20
  concept
• 27:20
  is
• 27:20
  schismogenesis.
• 27:21
  So
• 27:21
  Haselton's
• 27:22
  KISS
• 27:22
  Bateson
• 27:23
  is
• 27:23
  it
• 27:23
  true?
• 27:24
  GREGORY
• 27:24
  BATESON
• 27:25
  MAIN
• 27:25
  ANTHROPOLOGIST
• 27:26
  so
• 27:26
  how
• 27:26
  certain
• 27:27
  schisms
• 27:27
  are
• 27:28
  generated
• 27:28
  and
• 27:28
  identities
• 27:29
  are
• 27:29
  developed
• 27:30
  around
• 27:30
  this
• 27:30
  schism.
• 27:31
  And
• 27:32
  our
• 27:32
  contemporary
• 27:32
  world
• 27:33
  is
• 27:33
  full
• 27:34
  of
• 27:34
  this
• 27:34
  kind
• 27:34
  of
• 27:34
  schisms
• 27:35
  and
• 27:35
  the
• 27:35
  schism
• 27:36
  between
• 27:37
  the
• 27:37
  ideals
• 27:38
  to
• 27:38
  pursue
• 27:39
  and
• 27:39
  what
• 27:39
  the
• 27:39
  reality
• 27:40
  means,
• 27:40
  the
• 27:41
  schism
• 27:41
  between,
• 27:42
  you
• 27:42
  know,
• 27:42
  be
• 27:42
  brave
• 27:43
  and
• 27:43
  stand
• 27:44
  up
• 27:44
  for
• 27:44
  yourself,
• 27:44
  and
• 27:45
  then
• 27:45
  being
• 27:46
  really
• 27:47
  rewarded.
• 27:48
  I
• 27:48
  noticed
• 27:48
  that
• 27:48
  when
• 27:49
  I
• 27:49
  went
• 27:49
  to
• 27:49
  the
• 27:49
  United
• 27:50
  States
• 27:50
  and
• 27:50
  I
• 27:50
  was
• 27:50
  free
• 27:51
  to
• 27:51
  basically
• 27:51
  to
• 27:51
  select
• 27:52
  any.
• 27:52
  When
• 27:52
  was
• 27:52
  that
• 27:52
  in
• 27:53
  your
• 27:53
  life?
• 27:53
  Yes,
• 27:53
  in
• 27:53
  82.
• 27:54
  82
• 27:55
  in
• 27:55
  Texas,
• 27:55
  before
• 27:55
  the
• 27:56
  fall
• 27:56
  of
• 27:56
  the
• 27:56
  wall.
• 27:57
  Was
• 27:57
  before
• 27:57
  the
• 27:57
  fall
• 27:57
  of
• 27:58
  the
• 27:58
  wall?
• 27:58
  Yes,
• 27:58
  yes,
• 27:59
  it
• 27:59
  was
• 27:59
  a
• 28:00
  very
• 28:00
  particular
• 28:00
  situation
• 28:01
  from
• 28:01
  the
• 28:01
  Academy
• 28:02
  of
• 28:02
  Sciences,
• 28:02
  whatever.
• 28:03
  But
• 28:03
  the
• 28:03
  basic
• 28:03
  point
• 28:03
  was
• 28:03
  you
• 28:04
  could
• 28:04
  select
• 28:04
  any
• 28:04
  course.
• 28:05
  Yes,
• 28:06
  but
• 28:06
  then
• 28:07
  if
• 28:07
  you
• 28:07
  just
• 28:07
  selected
• 28:08
  courses
• 28:09
  which
• 28:09
  don't
• 28:09
  add
• 28:10
  it
• 28:10
  up
• 28:10
  together
• 28:11
  in
• 28:11
  the
• 28:11
  official
• 28:12
  kind
• 28:12
  of
• 28:12
  logic,
• 28:13
  then
• 28:13
  you
• 28:14
  had
• 28:14
  problems.
• 28:15
  So
• 28:16
  you
• 28:16
  were
• 28:17
  supposed
• 28:17
  to
• 28:17
  be.
• 28:18
  And
• 28:18
  then
• 28:18
  I
• 28:18
  realized
• 28:18
  that,
• 28:19
  wait
• 28:19
  a
• 28:19
  minute,
• 28:19
  this
• 28:20
  is
• 28:20
  just
• 28:20
  like
• 28:20
  that.
• 28:21
  You
• 28:21
  have
• 28:21
  to
• 28:21
  write
• 28:22
  in
• 28:22
  Hungary.
• 28:23
  So
• 28:23
  you
• 28:23
  write
• 28:24
  in
• 28:25
  mind
• 28:25
  of
• 28:25
  what
• 28:25
  they
• 28:26
  expect
• 28:26
  you
• 28:26
  that
• 28:27
  you
• 28:27
  would
• 28:27
  write.
• 28:27
  Because
• 28:28
  if
• 28:28
  you
• 28:28
  just
• 28:28
  write
• 28:28
  what
• 28:29
  then
• 28:29
  that
• 28:29
  would
• 28:30
  have
• 28:31
  been
• 28:31
  a
• 28:31
  problem.
• 28:32
  So
• 28:33
  many
• 28:33
  things
• 28:33
  that
• 28:33
  I
• 28:33
  would
• 28:34
  like
• 28:34
  to
• 28:34
  pick
• 28:35
  on
• 28:35
  and
• 28:35
  continue.
• 28:36
  First
• 28:36
  of
• 28:37
  all,
• 28:37
  you
• 28:37
  said
• 28:37
  there's
• 28:38
  a
• 28:38
  theatrical
• 28:39
  element
• 28:39
  in
• 28:39
  representation.
• 28:40
  And
• 28:41
  again,
• 28:41
  if
• 28:41
  we
• 28:41
  look
• 28:41
  at
• 28:41
  present
• 28:42
  day
• 28:42
  politics,
• 28:43
  it's
• 28:43
  so
• 28:43
  obvious.
• 28:44
  It
• 28:44
  sometimes
• 28:45
  seems
• 28:45
  like
• 28:45
  a
• 28:46
  theater,
• 28:46
  like
• 28:46
  a
• 28:47
  charade,
• 28:47
  even
• 28:47
  a
• 28:47
  parody
• 28:48
  of
• 28:48
  real
• 28:48
  politics.
• 28:49
  And
• 28:49
  yet
• 28:50
  we
• 28:50
  consider
• 28:50
  this
• 28:50
  to
• 28:51
  be
• 28:51
  politics.
• 28:52
  Do
• 28:52
  I
• 28:52
  get
• 28:53
  you
• 28:53
  right
• 28:53
  when
• 28:53
  you
• 28:53
  say
• 28:54
  the
• 28:55
  problem
• 28:55
  with
• 28:55
  representational
• 28:56
  democracy
• 28:57
  is.
• 28:57
  Is
• 28:58
  that
• 28:58
  it
• 28:58
  has
• 29:00
  not
• 29:00
  acknowledged
• 29:01
  the
• 29:01
  origin
• 29:02
  of
• 29:02
  representation
• 29:03
  in
• 29:03
  theater
• 29:03
  and
• 29:04
  thereby
• 29:04
  creates
• 29:04
  a
• 29:05
  false
• 29:05
  image
• 29:05
  of
• 29:06
  politics
• 29:06
  in
• 29:06
  itself?
• 29:07
  Yeah,
• 29:07
  this
• 29:08
  is
• 29:08
  very
• 29:08
  much
• 29:08
  the
• 29:09
  case.
• 29:09
  And
• 29:10
  it's
• 29:10
  very
• 29:10
  delicate
• 29:11
  because
• 29:12
  the
• 29:13
  idea
• 29:13
  of
• 29:14
  political
• 29:14
  representation
• 29:16
  was.
• 29:16
  And
• 29:17
  there
• 29:17
  are
• 29:17
  very,
• 29:17
  very
• 29:18
  good
• 29:18
  books
• 29:18
  about
• 29:18
  that.
• 29:19
  They
• 29:19
  were
• 29:19
  medieval
• 29:20
  and
• 29:21
  they
• 29:21
  were
• 29:22
  theological
• 29:22
  and
• 29:23
  aristocratic.
• 29:24
  That
• 29:24
  is
• 29:24
  what
• 29:25
  it
• 29:25
  meant
• 29:25
  in
• 29:26
  a
• 29:26
  medieval
• 29:27
  sense
• 29:28
  is
• 29:28
  that
• 29:28
  it's
• 29:29
  basically
• 29:29
  Corpus
• 29:30
  Christi.
• 29:30
  So
• 29:31
  politicians
• 29:32
  or
• 29:33
  members
• 29:34
  are
• 29:34
  representatives
• 29:35
  of
• 29:36
  the
• 29:36
  body
• 29:36
  of
• 29:36
  Christ
• 29:37
  in
• 29:37
  some
• 29:37
  kind.
• 29:37
  There's
• 29:37
  one
• 29:38
  book
• 29:38
  by
• 29:38
  Kantorowicz,
• 29:39
  who's
• 29:39
  probably
• 29:40
  the
• 29:40
  most
• 29:40
  important
• 29:41
  scholar
• 29:41
  on
• 29:41
  this,
• 29:42
  Hasso.
• 29:42
  Hoffman,
• 29:43
  who
• 29:43
  wrote
• 29:43
  a
• 29:43
  very,
• 29:44
  very
• 29:44
  good
• 29:44
  book
• 29:44
  on
• 29:44
  that.
• 29:44
  So
• 29:45
  that
• 29:45
  was
• 29:45
  one
• 29:45
  part
• 29:45
  of
• 29:46
  it.
• 29:46
  And
• 29:46
  the
• 29:46
  second
• 29:46
  part
• 29:47
  was,
• 29:47
  it
• 29:47
  was
• 29:47
  an
• 29:48
  election,
• 29:48
  was
• 29:49
  an
• 29:49
  aristocratic
• 29:51
  part
• 29:51
  of
• 29:51
  the
• 29:51
  aristocratic
• 29:52
  logic,
• 29:53
  meaning
• 29:53
  that
• 29:53
  you
• 29:54
  knew
• 29:54
  people.
• 29:54
  And
• 29:55
  so
• 29:55
  the
• 29:55
  aristocrats
• 29:56
  who
• 29:56
  had
• 29:56
  the
• 29:56
  right
• 29:56
  to
• 29:57
  do
• 29:57
  that
• 29:58
  elect
• 29:58
  is
• 29:58
  somebody.
• 29:59
  It's
• 29:59
  similar
• 29:59
  a
• 29:59
  bit
• 30:00
  in
• 30:00
  the
• 30:00
  German.
• 30:00
  I
• 30:00
  don't
• 30:00
  know
• 30:01
  how
• 30:01
  this
• 30:01
  is.
• 30:01
  Whatever
• 30:02
  is,
• 30:02
  I
• 30:02
  know
• 30:02
  it
• 30:02
  in
• 30:02
  Hungarian,
• 30:03
  how
• 30:03
  it
• 30:03
  is
• 30:03
  said
• 30:03
  that
• 30:04
  the
• 30:04
  electorates,
• 30:06
  whatever,
• 30:06
  who
• 30:06
  were
• 30:06
  the
• 30:06
  right
• 30:07
  to
• 30:07
  elect
• 30:07
  the
• 30:07
  emperor.
• 30:08
  There
• 30:08
  were
• 30:08
  only
• 30:08
  few
• 30:09
  princes
• 30:09
  who
• 30:10
  had
• 30:10
  this
• 30:11
  kind
• 30:11
  of
• 30:11
  right.
• 30:11
  So
• 30:12
  there
• 30:12
  was
• 30:12
  partly
• 30:13
  a
• 30:13
  theological
• 30:14
  principle
• 30:14
  of
• 30:14
  representation,
• 30:15
  partly
• 30:16
  as
• 30:16
  an
• 30:16
  aristocratic
• 30:17
  principle
• 30:17
  of
• 30:17
  election.
• 30:18
  And
• 30:19
  somehow
• 30:19
  these
• 30:19
  two
• 30:20
  came
• 30:21
  into
• 30:22
  the
• 30:22
  modern
• 30:23
  idea
• 30:23
  of
• 30:23
  representative
• 30:24
  politics.
• 30:25
  But
• 30:25
  there
• 30:25
  this
• 30:26
  representation
• 30:27
  incorporated
• 30:28
  the
• 30:28
  theatrical
• 30:29
  idea
• 30:29
  representanza
• 30:31
  and
• 30:31
  everything
• 30:32
  changed.
• 30:32
  So
• 30:33
  by
• 30:33
  the
• 30:33
  migration
• 30:33
  of
• 30:34
  these
• 30:34
  concepts
• 30:34
  through
• 30:35
  time
• 30:35
  and
• 30:35
  space,
• 30:36
  the
• 30:36
  very
• 30:36
  logic
• 30:37
  of
• 30:37
  democracy
• 30:37
  changed.
• 30:39
  It
• 30:39
  changed
• 30:39
  the
• 30:39
  logic
• 30:40
  and
• 30:41
  this
• 30:42
  entire
• 30:43
  entity.
• 30:44
  Mediavas
• 30:45
  theological,
• 30:46
  aesthetic,
• 30:46
  election,
• 30:47
  representation
• 30:48
  worked
• 30:49
  until
• 30:49
  a
• 30:49
  certain
• 30:50
  way,
• 30:51
  until
• 30:52
  the
• 30:52
  media
• 30:53
  started
• 30:53
  to
• 30:53
  play
• 30:55
  an
• 30:55
  even
• 30:55
  ever
• 30:56
  more
• 30:56
  increasing
• 30:56
  role.
• 30:57
  Pushing
• 30:58
  up
• 30:58
  already,
• 30:59
  as
• 30:59
  if
• 30:59
  coming
• 31:00
  out
• 31:00
  or
• 31:01
  resurrecting
• 31:01
  from
• 31:02
  underground,
• 31:03
  the
• 31:03
  theatrical
• 31:04
  component.
• 31:04
  I
• 31:04
  can
• 31:04
  give
• 31:05
  you
• 31:05
  one
• 31:05
  example
• 31:05
  about
• 31:05
  that.
• 31:06
  I
• 31:06
  remember
• 31:06
  that
• 31:06
  in
• 31:06
  about
• 31:07
  1983
• 31:08
  there
• 31:09
  was
• 31:09
  a
• 31:09
  new
• 31:10
  television
• 31:10
  station
• 31:11
  in
• 31:11
  America
• 31:12
  called
• 31:12
  the
• 31:12
  C
• 31:13
  Span.
• 31:14
  And
• 31:14
  the
• 31:14
  C
• 31:14
  Span,
• 31:15
  if
• 31:15
  I
• 31:15
  remember
• 31:15
  well,
• 31:16
  was
• 31:17
  still
• 31:17
  exists.
• 31:17
  It
• 31:18
  still
• 31:18
  exists.
• 31:18
  It
• 31:18
  was
• 31:19
  showing
• 31:19
  how
• 31:20
  the
• 31:20
  congress
• 31:21
  deliberates.
• 31:21
  I
• 31:22
  love
• 31:22
  to
• 31:22
  watch
• 31:22
  that
• 31:22
  when
• 31:22
  I.
• 31:23
  Was
• 31:23
  in
• 31:23
  the
• 31:23
  US
• 31:23
  It's
• 31:23
  a
• 31:23
  good
• 31:24
  theater.
• 31:24
  But
• 31:25
  you
• 31:25
  know,
• 31:26
  that
• 31:26
  was
• 31:26
  when
• 31:26
  it
• 31:26
  was
• 31:27
  said
• 31:27
  that
• 31:27
  this
• 31:27
  is
• 31:27
  an
• 31:28
  additional
• 31:28
  step
• 31:28
  in
• 31:29
  democracy.
• 31:29
  I
• 31:29
  said,
• 31:30
  no,
• 31:30
  it's
• 31:30
  an
• 31:30
  additional
• 31:31
  lowering
• 31:31
  of
• 31:31
  democracy.
• 31:32
  Because
• 31:32
  if
• 31:32
  you
• 31:33
  are
• 31:33
  a
• 31:33
  congressman,
• 31:34
  then
• 31:35
  you
• 31:35
  talk
• 31:35
  among
• 31:36
  yourself
• 31:37
  and
• 31:37
  you
• 31:37
  should
• 31:37
  be
• 31:38
  Entrusted
• 31:38
  that
• 31:38
  you
• 31:39
  discuss
• 31:39
  the
• 31:39
  common
• 31:40
  good.
• 31:41
  But
• 31:41
  if
• 31:41
  it
• 31:41
  is
• 31:42
  shown
• 31:42
  on
• 31:42
  television,
• 31:43
  then
• 31:43
  you
• 31:43
  become
• 31:44
  actors
• 31:45
  and
• 31:45
  you
• 31:45
  should
• 31:45
  serve.
• 31:45
  It
• 31:45
  becomes
• 31:45
  a
• 31:46
  stage.
• 31:46
  It's
• 31:47
  a
• 31:47
  stage
• 31:47
  for
• 31:47
  you
• 31:47
  to
• 31:48
  perform.
• 31:49
  But
• 31:49
  Albert,
• 31:49
  here's
• 31:50
  another
• 31:50
  contradiction.
• 31:51
  Maybe
• 31:51
  because
• 31:51
  what
• 31:51
  you
• 31:52
  want
• 31:52
  in
• 31:52
  democracies
• 31:53
  is
• 31:53
  transparency.
• 31:55
  You
• 31:55
  want
• 31:55
  to
• 31:55
  have
• 31:56
  visibility,
• 31:57
  you
• 31:57
  want
• 31:57
  to
• 31:57
  see
• 31:57
  what
• 31:58
  people
• 31:58
  say,
• 31:59
  what
• 31:59
  is
• 31:59
  talked
• 31:59
  about
• 31:59
  and
• 32:00
  how
• 32:00
  they
• 32:00
  decide.
• 32:01
  And
• 32:01
  you
• 32:01
  say
• 32:02
  that
• 32:02
  is
• 32:02
  a
• 32:02
  problematic
• 32:03
  idea
• 32:03
  because
• 32:03
  it
• 32:04
  turns
• 32:04
  democracy
• 32:05
  into
• 32:05
  a
• 32:05
  theater.
• 32:06
  Yes,
• 32:06
  transparency
• 32:07
  is
• 32:07
  another
• 32:08
  problematic
• 32:08
  idea.
• 32:09
  It
• 32:09
  looks
• 32:10
  nice,
• 32:11
  but
• 32:12
  any
• 32:13
  serious
• 32:13
  discussion
• 32:14
  can
• 32:15
  only
• 32:15
  be
• 32:15
  made
• 32:16
  among
• 32:16
  people
• 32:18
  in
• 32:18
  a
• 32:19
  reserved
• 32:19
  kind
• 32:20
  of
• 32:20
  setting.
• 32:21
  So
• 32:21
  just
• 32:21
  to
• 32:21
  give
• 32:21
  you
• 32:22
  one
• 32:22
  example
• 32:22
  about
• 32:23
  that,
• 32:23
  it's
• 32:24
  academic
• 32:25
  setting.
• 32:25
  So
• 32:26
  academics
• 32:27
  should
• 32:27
  be
• 32:27
  discussing,
• 32:29
  let's
• 32:29
  say,
• 32:29
  an
• 32:29
  appointment
• 32:30
  or
• 32:30
  something
• 32:30
  like
• 32:31
  that.
• 32:31
  Now
• 32:32
  the
• 32:32
  central
• 32:32
  issue,
• 32:33
  and
• 32:33
  I'm
• 32:33
  very
• 32:34
  stringent
• 32:34
  on
• 32:35
  that,
• 32:35
  is
• 32:35
  that
• 32:35
  you
• 32:36
  have
• 32:36
  to
• 32:36
  trust
• 32:36
  the
• 32:37
  people
• 32:37
  who
• 32:38
  make
• 32:38
  the
• 32:39
  decisions.
• 32:40
  But
• 32:40
  if
• 32:40
  you
• 32:40
  want
• 32:40
  to
• 32:41
  check
• 32:41
  them
• 32:42
  the
• 32:42
  moment
• 32:42
  in
• 32:43
  which
• 32:43
  they
• 32:43
  make
• 32:43
  the
• 32:43
  decisions,
• 32:44
  then
• 32:44
  you
• 32:44
  transform
• 32:45
  academic
• 32:46
  institutions
• 32:47
  into
• 32:47
  a
• 32:48
  comedy.
• 32:48
  So
• 32:48
  this
• 32:49
  happened
• 32:49
  with
• 32:50
  me
• 32:50
  in
• 32:50
  the
• 32:50
  first
• 32:50
  year
• 32:50
  I
• 32:51
  was
• 32:51
  in
• 32:51
  Ireland
• 32:52
  when
• 32:52
  there
• 32:52
  was
• 32:53
  an
• 32:53
  academic
• 32:53
  council
• 32:54
  and
• 32:54
  the
• 32:54
  academic
• 32:55
  council
• 32:55
  was
• 32:55
  only
• 32:55
  the
• 32:56
  Council
• 32:56
  of
• 32:56
  Professors,
• 32:57
  Professors
• 32:58
  in
• 32:58
  the
• 32:58
  first
• 32:58
  council
• 32:59
  I
• 32:59
  was
• 32:59
  there,
• 32:59
  they
• 33:00
  appointed
• 33:00
  five
• 33:00
  members
• 33:01
  of
• 33:01
  the
• 33:01
  staff
• 33:02
  and,
• 33:02
  I
• 33:02
  don't
• 33:02
  know,
• 33:02
  five
• 33:03
  student
• 33:03
  representatives.
• 33:04
  And
• 33:04
  everybody
• 33:05
  was
• 33:05
  loudly
• 33:07
  hailing
• 33:08
  it
• 33:08
  another
• 33:08
  step.
• 33:09
  I
• 33:09
  said,
• 33:09
  no,
• 33:10
  this
• 33:11
  entire
• 33:11
  entity
• 33:11
  will
• 33:12
  no
• 33:12
  longer
• 33:12
  exist.
• 33:13
  And
• 33:13
  half
• 33:14
  a
• 33:14
  year
• 33:14
  later
• 33:15
  they
• 33:15
  appointed
• 33:16
  an
• 33:16
  academic
• 33:16
  board
• 33:17
  which
• 33:17
  were
• 33:18
  only
• 33:18
  some
• 33:18
  professors
• 33:19
  were
• 33:19
  selected
• 33:20
  and
• 33:20
  who
• 33:21
  became
• 33:22
  the
• 33:22
  decision
• 33:22
  making
• 33:22
  by
• 33:23
  the
• 33:23
  Institute
• 33:23
  of
• 33:23
  Academic
• 33:24
  Council.
• 33:24
  The
• 33:24
  five
• 33:25
  years
• 33:25
  later
• 33:25
  it
• 33:25
  became
• 33:26
  the
• 33:27
  university
• 33:27
  management
• 33:28
  team.
• 33:29
  And
• 33:29
  when
• 33:30
  I
• 33:30
  as
• 33:30
  a
• 33:30
  professor
• 33:30
  and
• 33:31
  at
• 33:31
  that
• 33:31
  time
• 33:31
  was
• 33:31
  head
• 33:31
  of
• 33:32
  department,
• 33:32
  I
• 33:32
  was
• 33:32
  asked,
• 33:33
  but
• 33:33
  who
• 33:33
  is
• 33:33
  a
• 33:33
  member
• 33:33
  of
• 33:33
  the
• 33:34
  university
• 33:34
  management
• 33:35
  team?
• 33:35
  I
• 33:35
  was
• 33:35
  told,
• 33:36
  you
• 33:36
  cannot
• 33:37
  know
• 33:37
  that.
• 33:38
  It'S
• 33:38
  a
• 33:39
  new
• 33:39
  kind
• 33:39
  of
• 33:39
  elite.
• 33:39
  You
• 33:40
  cannot.
• 33:40
  It's
• 33:40
  a
• 33:40
  new
• 33:41
  kind
• 33:41
  of
• 33:41
  managerial
• 33:42
  elite.
• 33:43
  In
• 33:43
  the
• 33:43
  name
• 33:43
  of
• 33:43
  increasing
• 33:44
  democracy.
• 33:46
  I
• 33:46
  think
• 33:46
  we
• 33:46
  already
• 33:47
  get
• 33:47
  a
• 33:47
  sense
• 33:47
  of
• 33:47
  how
• 33:48
  interesting
• 33:48
  our
• 33:49
  present
• 33:49
  day
• 33:49
  politics
• 33:50
  look
• 33:50
  when
• 33:50
  we
• 33:51
  see
• 33:51
  it
• 33:51
  through
• 33:52
  your
• 33:52
  lens
• 33:52
  and
• 33:52
  the
• 33:53
  lens
• 33:53
  of
• 33:53
  political
• 33:54
  anthropology.
• 33:55
  Another
• 33:55
  idea,
• 33:56
  idea
• 33:56
  that
• 33:57
  we
• 33:57
  should
• 33:57
  talk
• 33:57
  about,
• 33:58
  when
• 33:58
  we
• 33:58
  talk
• 33:58
  about
• 33:58
  the
• 33:59
  beyond
• 34:00
  liberalism
• 34:00
  aspect
• 34:01
  of
• 34:01
  your
• 34:01
  work
• 34:02
  is
• 34:02
  it
• 34:02
  seems
• 34:02
  to
• 34:03
  be
• 34:03
  a
• 34:03
  very
• 34:03
  timely
• 34:03
  effort
• 34:04
  and
• 34:05
  not
• 34:05
  necessarily
• 34:06
  in
• 34:06
  a
• 34:06
  good
• 34:06
  sense,
• 34:07
  because
• 34:07
  there
• 34:08
  are
• 34:08
  many
• 34:08
  political
• 34:08
  forces
• 34:09
  right
• 34:09
  now
• 34:10
  who
• 34:10
  say
• 34:10
  exactly
• 34:10
  that
• 34:11
  we
• 34:11
  should
• 34:11
  move
• 34:12
  beyond
• 34:12
  liberalism,
• 34:13
  namely
• 34:14
  autocratic
• 34:15
  forces
• 34:15
  embodied
• 34:16
  by
• 34:16
  people
• 34:17
  like
• 34:17
  Putin,
• 34:18
  possibly
• 34:19
  Orban,
• 34:20
  possibly
• 34:20
  even
• 34:20
  Trump.
• 34:21
  They
• 34:21
  say
• 34:22
  exactly,
• 34:22
  exactly,
• 34:23
  not
• 34:23
  exactly
• 34:24
  what
• 34:24
  you
• 34:24
  say,
• 34:24
  but
• 34:25
  they
• 34:25
  say
• 34:25
  the
• 34:25
  same
• 34:25
  thing
• 34:26
  in
• 34:26
  the
• 34:26
  sense
• 34:26
  that
• 34:26
  we
• 34:27
  have
• 34:27
  to
• 34:27
  move
• 34:27
  beyond
• 34:28
  liberalism.
• 34:28
  And
• 34:29
  I
• 34:29
  would
• 34:29
  imagine
• 34:29
  that
• 34:30
  it's
• 34:30
  for
• 34:30
  you
• 34:30
  very
• 34:31
  problematic
• 34:32
  to
• 34:32
  make
• 34:32
  clear
• 34:32
  that
• 34:33
  you
• 34:33
  don't
• 34:33
  mean
• 34:33
  that.
• 34:34
  Yes,
• 34:35
  to
• 34:35
  be
• 34:35
  sure.
• 34:35
  I
• 34:35
  mean,
• 34:35
  one
• 34:35
  has
• 34:36
  to
• 34:36
  be
• 34:36
  very
• 34:36
  careful
• 34:37
  in
• 34:37
  how
• 34:37
  to
• 34:37
  formulate
• 34:39
  these
• 34:39
  kind
• 34:39
  of
• 34:39
  terms.
• 34:39
  And
• 34:40
  at
• 34:40
  the
• 34:40
  beginning
• 34:40
  of
• 34:40
  what
• 34:41
  I
• 34:41
  said,
• 34:41
  I
• 34:42
  said
• 34:42
  that
• 34:42
  this
• 34:42
  kind
• 34:42
  of
• 34:43
  constitutional
• 34:45
  rule
• 34:46
  and
• 34:47
  representative
• 34:48
  institutions,
• 34:49
  which
• 34:49
  are
• 34:49
  problematic
• 34:50
  enough
• 34:50
  in
• 34:50
  themselves,
• 34:51
  but
• 34:51
  are
• 34:51
  still
• 34:52
  important
• 34:53
  in
• 34:54
  the
• 34:54
  sense
• 34:54
  that
• 34:55
  we
• 34:55
  have
• 34:55
  to
• 34:56
  keep
• 34:56
  to
• 34:57
  a
• 34:57
  certain
• 34:57
  kind
• 34:58
  of
• 34:58
  rules
• 34:59
  of
• 34:59
  the
• 34:59
  game
• 34:59
  and
• 35:00
  not
• 35:00
  allowing
• 35:01
  people
• 35:02
  to
• 35:02
  hijack
• 35:03
  them.
• 35:03
  But
• 35:04
  here
• 35:04
  we
• 35:05
  come
• 35:05
  into
• 35:05
  a
• 35:06
  very
• 35:06
  important
• 35:07
  anthropological,
• 35:08
  sociological,
• 35:09
  cultural
• 35:09
  point
• 35:10
  which
• 35:10
  I
• 35:10
  think
• 35:10
  is
• 35:10
  very
• 35:11
  central.
• 35:11
  And
• 35:12
  this
• 35:12
  is
• 35:12
  that
• 35:13
  when
• 35:14
  liberal
• 35:14
  democracies
• 35:15
  existed
• 35:16
  in
• 35:16
  a
• 35:16
  kind
• 35:16
  of
• 35:16
  normal
• 35:17
  way,
• 35:18
  they
• 35:18
  relied
• 35:19
  not
• 35:19
  on
• 35:19
  the
• 35:20
  media
• 35:21
  so
• 35:21
  much,
• 35:21
  but
• 35:22
  they
• 35:22
  realized
• 35:22
  that
• 35:22
  there
• 35:22
  was
• 35:23
  a
• 35:23
  kind
• 35:23
  of,
• 35:23
  and
• 35:23
  it's
• 35:23
  very
• 35:23
  difficult
• 35:24
  to
• 35:24
  say,
• 35:25
  a
• 35:25
  kind
• 35:25
  of
• 35:25
  cultured
• 35:27
  classes,
• 35:27
  which
• 35:27
  was
• 35:28
  not
• 35:28
  elites,
• 35:29
  not
• 35:30
  exactly
• 35:30
  the
• 35:30
  middle
• 35:31
  classes,
• 35:31
  they
• 35:31
  can
• 35:31
  be
• 35:32
  called,
• 35:32
  as
• 35:33
  in
• 35:33
  German
• 35:34
  is
• 35:34
  a
• 35:34
  good
• 35:34
  word
• 35:34
  about
• 35:35
  the
• 35:35
  Burgertum
• 35:35
  or
• 35:36
  something
• 35:36
  like
• 35:36
  that.
• 35:36
  Maybe
• 35:37
  trustworthy
• 35:37
  people.
• 35:38
  Exactly.
• 35:38
  And
• 35:39
  that's
• 35:39
  the
• 35:39
  central
• 35:39
  point.
• 35:40
  So
• 35:40
  they
• 35:40
  were
• 35:40
  people
• 35:40
  who
• 35:41
  could
• 35:41
  be
• 35:41
  trusted,
• 35:42
  who
• 35:42
  had
• 35:43
  a
• 35:43
  degree
• 35:43
  of
• 35:43
  culture.
• 35:44
  And
• 35:44
  culture
• 35:44
  doesn't
• 35:45
  mean
• 35:45
  that,
• 35:45
  you
• 35:45
  know,
• 35:46
  you
• 35:46
  read
• 35:47
  Shakespeare
• 35:47
  and
• 35:47
  Moliere,
• 35:48
  which
• 35:48
  is
• 35:48
  of
• 35:49
  course
• 35:49
  fundamental,
• 35:49
  because
• 35:50
  if
• 35:50
  you
• 35:50
  read
• 35:50
  Shakespeare
• 35:50
  and
• 35:50
  Moliere,
• 35:51
  you
• 35:51
  get
• 35:51
  a
• 35:52
  different
• 35:52
  kind
• 35:52
  of
• 35:52
  culture
• 35:53
  than
• 35:53
  if
• 35:53
  you
• 35:53
  look
• 35:53
  at
• 35:53
  sensitivity.
• 35:54
  Yes,
• 35:55
  yes.
• 35:55
  And
• 35:56
  so
• 35:56
  these
• 35:56
  people
• 35:57
  still
• 35:57
  existed
• 35:58
  and
• 35:58
  this
• 35:58
  exerted
• 35:59
  a
• 35:59
  control.
• 36:00
  And
• 36:00
  they
• 36:00
  exerted
• 36:01
  a
• 36:01
  certain
• 36:01
  control
• 36:02
  even
• 36:02
  through
• 36:03
  the
• 36:03
  journals.
• 36:03
  Because
• 36:04
  let's
• 36:04
  say
• 36:04
  in
• 36:04
  the
• 36:05
  1970s
• 36:06
  and
• 36:06
  80s,
• 36:06
  if
• 36:06
  you
• 36:06
  read
• 36:07
  Le
• 36:07
  Monde
• 36:08
  or
• 36:08
  the
• 36:08
  Tzeit
• 36:09
  or
• 36:09
  the
• 36:10
  Times,
• 36:10
  you
• 36:10
  know,
• 36:10
  these
• 36:10
  were
• 36:11
  the
• 36:11
  people
• 36:11
  who
• 36:11
  were.
• 36:12
  Or
• 36:12
  the
• 36:12
  handset
• 36:13
  set
• 36:13
  in
• 36:13
  Switzerland
• 36:14
  and
• 36:14
  Mauritsu.
• 36:15
  Yes.
• 36:15
  And
• 36:16
  now
• 36:16
  here
• 36:17
  we
• 36:17
  come,
• 36:17
  a
• 36:17
  very
• 36:17
  important,
• 36:18
  important
• 36:18
  point
• 36:18
  about
• 36:19
  the
• 36:19
  very
• 36:20
  idea
• 36:20
  of
• 36:20
  the
• 36:20
  revolution.
• 36:21
  Because
• 36:21
  right
• 36:22
  now,
• 36:22
  if
• 36:22
  you
• 36:22
  turn
• 36:22
  on
• 36:23
  the
• 36:23
  television,
• 36:23
  it's
• 36:24
  all
• 36:24
  about
• 36:24
  the
• 36:24
  commercials
• 36:25
  are
• 36:25
  about
• 36:25
  the
• 36:25
  revolution,
• 36:26
  a
• 36:26
  new
• 36:26
  revolutionary,
• 36:27
  whatever
• 36:27
  it
• 36:28
  is.
• 36:28
  Ipod,
• 36:28
  everything
• 36:29
  is
• 36:29
  disruption.
• 36:30
  It's
• 36:30
  now
• 36:30
  called.
• 36:30
  It's
• 36:31
  now
• 36:31
  called
• 36:31
  disruption.
• 36:32
  They
• 36:32
  are
• 36:32
  very
• 36:32
  careful
• 36:32
  with
• 36:33
  revolution.
• 36:33
  The
• 36:33
  new
• 36:34
  world
• 36:34
  has
• 36:34
  to
• 36:34
  disruption.
• 36:35
  That's
• 36:36
  the
• 36:36
  next
• 36:36
  step,
• 36:36
  which
• 36:37
  is
• 36:37
  even
• 36:37
  more
• 36:37
  problematic
• 36:38
  because
• 36:38
  of
• 36:39
  course,
• 36:39
  disruption
• 36:40
  means
• 36:40
  the
• 36:40
  instrumentalization
• 36:41
  of
• 36:41
  liminality,
• 36:42
  which
• 36:42
  turns
• 36:42
  into
• 36:42
  an
• 36:43
  other
• 36:43
  anthropological
• 36:44
  concept.
• 36:45
  But
• 36:45
  indeed,
• 36:46
  and
• 36:47
  this
• 36:47
  is
• 36:47
  very
• 36:47
  important,
• 36:48
  that
• 36:48
  in
• 36:48
  my
• 36:49
  understanding,
• 36:49
  just
• 36:50
  at
• 36:50
  the
• 36:50
  same
• 36:50
  time,
• 36:50
  when
• 36:50
  there
• 36:51
  was
• 36:51
  the
• 36:51
  Cold
• 36:51
  War,
• 36:51
  when
• 36:52
  they
• 36:52
  were
• 36:52
  in
• 36:52
  Bolshevism
• 36:53
  and
• 36:53
  communism,
• 36:54
  there
• 36:55
  were
• 36:55
  kind
• 36:56
  of
• 36:56
  radical
• 36:56
  movements
• 36:58
  which
• 36:58
  attacked
• 37:00
  the
• 37:00
  heart
• 37:00
  of
• 37:00
  this
• 37:01
  cultural
• 37:01
  elite.
• 37:02
  Now,
• 37:02
  it's
• 37:03
  difficult
• 37:03
  to
• 37:03
  reconstruct
• 37:04
  how
• 37:04
  that
• 37:04
  much
• 37:05
  cultural.
• 37:06
  But
• 37:06
  I
• 37:07
  can
• 37:07
  see,
• 37:07
  and
• 37:07
  I
• 37:07
  think
• 37:07
  it's
• 37:08
  interesting
• 37:08
  that
• 37:08
  you
• 37:08
  are
• 37:09
  struggling
• 37:09
  with
• 37:10
  even
• 37:10
  pronouncing
• 37:11
  the
• 37:11
  word
• 37:11
  elite,
• 37:12
  because
• 37:12
  it
• 37:13
  has
• 37:13
  become
• 37:14
  such
• 37:14
  a
• 37:14
  shamed
• 37:14
  term.
• 37:15
  Yes,
• 37:16
  but
• 37:16
  then
• 37:16
  again,
• 37:16
  you
• 37:16
  would
• 37:17
  hold
• 37:17
  and
• 37:17
  actually
• 37:18
  believe
• 37:18
  that
• 37:19
  we
• 37:19
  need
• 37:19
  cultural
• 37:20
  elites,
• 37:20
  we
• 37:20
  need
• 37:20
  these
• 37:21
  trustworthy
• 37:22
  people,
• 37:22
  and
• 37:22
  they
• 37:22
  are
• 37:22
  trusted
• 37:23
  by
• 37:23
  their
• 37:24
  communities,
• 37:24
  if
• 37:25
  I
• 37:25
  understand
• 37:25
  you
• 37:25
  correctly.
• 37:26
  Yes.
• 37:26
  Now,
• 37:26
  the
• 37:26
  elite,
• 37:27
  I
• 37:27
  have
• 37:27
  problem
• 37:27
  even
• 37:27
  in
• 37:28
  the
• 37:28
  world,
• 37:28
  because
• 37:28
  the
• 37:28
  elite
• 37:29
  as
• 37:29
  a
• 37:29
  word
• 37:30
  is
• 37:30
  a
• 37:30
  religious
• 37:30
  word,
• 37:31
  of
• 37:31
  course,
• 37:31
  and
• 37:32
  people
• 37:32
  who
• 37:32
  were
• 37:33
  cold
• 37:34
  and
• 37:34
  so
• 37:34
  they
• 37:35
  were
• 37:35
  elected
• 37:35
  in
• 37:36
  that
• 37:36
  particular
• 37:36
  sense,
• 37:37
  and
• 37:38
  we
• 37:38
  don't
• 37:38
  have
• 37:38
  a
• 37:38
  word,
• 37:38
  we
• 37:39
  cannot
• 37:39
  call
• 37:39
  them.
• 37:39
  We
• 37:40
  can
• 37:40
  call
• 37:40
  them
• 37:40
  as
• 37:40
  a
• 37:40
  kind
• 37:40
  of
• 37:40
  cultural
• 37:41
  aristocracy.
• 37:42
  But
• 37:42
  aristocracy
• 37:43
  has
• 37:43
  a
• 37:43
  problematic
• 37:44
  world
• 37:44
  in
• 37:44
  itself,
• 37:45
  so
• 37:45
  it's
• 37:45
  difficult
• 37:46
  to
• 37:46
  how
• 37:46
  to
• 37:47
  define.
• 37:47
  But
• 37:47
  I
• 37:48
  knew
• 37:48
  many
• 37:48
  of
• 37:48
  these
• 37:49
  people
• 37:50
  still
• 37:50
  in
• 37:51
  Hungary
• 37:51
  when
• 37:52
  I
• 37:52
  was
• 37:52
  there,
• 37:52
  in
• 37:53
  Italy,
• 37:53
  in
• 37:54
  the
• 37:54
  United
• 37:54
  States.
• 37:54
  So
• 37:55
  these
• 37:55
  people
• 37:55
  still
• 37:56
  existed
• 37:56
  and
• 37:57
  they
• 37:57
  exerted
• 37:58
  an
• 37:58
  influence.
• 37:58
  And
• 37:59
  this
• 37:59
  is
• 37:59
  being
• 38:00
  undermined.
• 38:01
  And
• 38:01
  it's
• 38:01
  a
• 38:01
  very
• 38:01
  tricky
• 38:02
  and
• 38:02
  very
• 38:02
  important
• 38:02
  question
• 38:03
  to
• 38:03
  see
• 38:03
  how
• 38:03
  these
• 38:04
  people
• 38:05
  came
• 38:05
  to
• 38:05
  be
• 38:05
  undermined.
• 38:06
  What
• 38:06
  was
• 38:06
  the
• 38:06
  logic
• 38:07
  of
• 38:07
  that?
• 38:07
  Was
• 38:07
  it
• 38:07
  the
• 38:08
  logic
• 38:08
  of
• 38:08
  the
• 38:08
  media?
• 38:09
  Was
• 38:09
  the
• 38:09
  logic
• 38:09
  of
• 38:10
  getting
• 38:11
  ever
• 38:11
  more,
• 38:12
  ever
• 38:12
  shallower,
• 38:13
  but
• 38:13
  more
• 38:15
  transparency?
• 38:16
  Yes,
• 38:16
  yes,
• 38:17
  but
• 38:17
  Arpat,
• 38:17
  let's
• 38:18
  apply
• 38:18
  this,
• 38:18
  for
• 38:18
  example,
• 38:19
  to
• 38:19
  this
• 38:20
  institution,
• 38:21
  the
• 38:21
  Haasgensang,
• 38:23
  which
• 38:23
  is
• 38:23
  and
• 38:23
  claims
• 38:24
  to
• 38:24
  be
• 38:25
  an
• 38:25
  elite
• 38:26
  institution,
• 38:27
  and
• 38:27
  even
• 38:28
  more,
• 38:28
  they
• 38:29
  claim
• 38:29
  to
• 38:30
  educate
• 38:31
  the
• 38:31
  future
• 38:32
  elite
• 38:33
  of
• 38:33
  business
• 38:34
  leaders.
• 38:35
  Now,
• 38:36
  the
• 38:36
  program
• 38:36
  of
• 38:36
  this
• 38:37
  very
• 38:37
  university
• 38:37
  is
• 38:38
  based
• 38:38
  on
• 38:38
  the
• 38:38
  idea
• 38:39
  that
• 38:39
  a
• 38:39
  good
• 38:40
  business
• 38:40
  leader
• 38:40
  knows
• 38:41
  more
• 38:41
  than
• 38:41
  only
• 38:41
  business.
• 38:42
  He
• 38:43
  is
• 38:43
  a
• 38:43
  humanist,
• 38:44
  he
• 38:44
  has
• 38:44
  a
• 38:44
  broad
• 38:45
  education.
• 38:46
  Do
• 38:47
  you
• 38:47
  think
• 38:47
  that
• 38:48
  if
• 38:48
  you
• 38:48
  want
• 38:49
  to
• 38:49
  be
• 38:49
  a
• 38:49
  trustworthy
• 38:50
  person
• 38:50
  in
• 38:51
  the
• 38:51
  sense
• 38:51
  that
• 38:51
  you
• 38:51
  envision,
• 38:53
  it's
• 38:53
  enough
• 38:53
  to
• 38:54
  know
• 38:54
  of
• 38:54
  one
• 38:54
  thing,
• 38:54
  or
• 38:55
  would
• 38:55
  you
• 38:55
  need
• 38:55
  a
• 38:56
  rather
• 38:56
  broad
• 38:56
  and
• 38:57
  humanist
• 38:57
  approach
• 38:58
  to
• 38:58
  things?
• 38:59
  Absolutely.
• 38:59
  One
• 39:00
  needs
• 39:00
  a
• 39:00
  broader
• 39:00
  and
• 39:00
  humanistic
• 39:01
  approach.
• 39:02
  I
• 39:02
  mean,
• 39:02
  I
• 39:03
  was
• 39:03
  teaching
• 39:04
  two
• 39:04
  years
• 39:04
  in
• 39:06
  a
• 39:06
  winter
• 39:06
  school
• 39:07
  of
• 39:07
  the
• 39:07
  Milan
• 39:08
  Polytechnic,
• 39:09
  or
• 39:09
  whatever
• 39:09
  it
• 39:10
  is,
• 39:10
  which
• 39:10
  was
• 39:10
  considered
• 39:11
  to
• 39:11
  be
• 39:11
  the
• 39:11
  elite
• 39:12
  institution
• 39:12
  in
• 39:12
  Italy,
• 39:13
  and
• 39:13
  it
• 39:14
  was
• 39:14
  institution
• 39:14
  training,
• 39:15
  architects,
• 39:16
  design
• 39:17
  and
• 39:17
  engineers
• 39:18
  or
• 39:18
  something
• 39:18
  like
• 39:19
  that,
• 39:19
  and
• 39:19
  they
• 39:19
  realize
• 39:20
  that
• 39:20
  they
• 39:20
  need
• 39:21
  some
• 39:21
  kind
• 39:22
  of
• 39:22
  humanistic
• 39:22
  or
• 39:23
  social
• 39:23
  science
• 39:23
  education.
• 39:24
  As
• 39:24
  far
• 39:24
  as
• 39:24
  I
• 39:25
  understand,
• 39:25
  after
• 39:25
  two
• 39:25
  years
• 39:26
  they
• 39:26
  closed
• 39:26
  this
• 39:26
  door.
• 39:27
  So
• 39:27
  maybe
• 39:28
  it
• 39:28
  was
• 39:28
  too
• 39:28
  expensive
• 39:29
  for
• 39:29
  them.
• 39:29
  So
• 39:29
  it's
• 39:29
  always
• 39:30
  a
• 39:30
  tricky
• 39:31
  thing,
• 39:32
  and
• 39:32
  I
• 39:32
  don't
• 39:33
  know
• 39:34
  not
• 39:34
  to
• 39:34
  say
• 39:35
  enough,
• 39:35
  but
• 39:35
  hardly
• 39:35
  anything
• 39:36
  really
• 39:37
  about
• 39:37
  Sangaland
• 39:38
  and
• 39:38
  its
• 39:38
  background.
• 39:39
  I
• 39:39
  mean,
• 39:39
  I'm
• 39:39
  here
• 39:39
  since
• 39:40
  September
• 39:42
  and
• 39:42
  it's
• 39:43
  training
• 39:43
  and
• 39:43
  elite
• 39:44
  in
• 39:44
  our
• 39:44
  own
• 39:44
  times.
• 39:45
  It's
• 39:46
  a
• 39:46
  very
• 39:46
  delicate
• 39:47
  kind
• 39:47
  of
• 39:47
  activity
• 39:47
  of
• 39:48
  what
• 39:48
  we
• 39:48
  really
• 39:48
  mean
• 39:49
  by
• 39:49
  that.
• 39:49
  There's
• 39:50
  a
• 39:50
  beautiful
• 39:50
  saying
• 39:51
  by
• 39:51
  Johann
• 39:51
  Wolfgang
• 39:52
  von
• 39:52
  Goethe,
• 39:52
  I
• 39:52
  know
• 39:53
  as
• 39:53
  someone
• 39:53
  who's
• 39:54
  very
• 39:54
  close
• 39:54
  to
• 39:54
  your
• 39:54
  heart
• 39:55
  and
• 39:55
  your
• 39:55
  mind.
• 39:56
  He
• 39:56
  says,
• 39:56
  the
• 39:57
  one
• 39:57
  who
• 39:57
  knows
• 39:58
  only
• 39:58
  about
• 39:58
  one
• 39:59
  thing
• 39:59
  doesn't
• 40:00
  know
• 40:00
  anything
• 40:00
  about
• 40:01
  that
• 40:01
  one
• 40:01
  thing
• 40:02
  either.
• 40:03
  And
• 40:03
  I
• 40:03
  think
• 40:03
  this
• 40:04
  is
• 40:04
  an
• 40:04
  idea
• 40:04
  of
• 40:04
  what
• 40:05
  it
• 40:05
  means
• 40:05
  to
• 40:05
  be
• 40:05
  educated,
• 40:06
  that
• 40:06
  if
• 40:06
  you're
• 40:07
  an
• 40:07
  absolute
• 40:07
  specialist,
• 40:08
  you're
• 40:09
  also
• 40:09
  Very
• 40:10
  bad
• 40:10
  at
• 40:10
  your
• 40:10
  specialty,
• 40:11
  because
• 40:12
  there
• 40:12
  are
• 40:12
  no
• 40:13
  specialities
• 40:13
  in
• 40:13
  a
• 40:14
  complex.
• 40:15
  Absolutely.
• 40:15
  I
• 40:16
  mean,
• 40:16
  today
• 40:16
  we
• 40:16
  are
• 40:16
  talking
• 40:16
  about,
• 40:17
  always
• 40:17
  about
• 40:17
  the
• 40:18
  experts,
• 40:18
  and
• 40:19
  that's
• 40:20
  a
• 40:20
  very
• 40:20
  problematic
• 40:20
  word.
• 40:22
  My
• 40:22
  series
• 40:22
  is
• 40:22
  now
• 40:23
  publishing
• 40:23
  a
• 40:24
  book
• 40:24
  about
• 40:24
  experts
• 40:25
  by
• 40:25
  Paul
• 40:26
  o'
• 40:26
  Connor
• 40:26
  and
• 40:27
  Stephen
• 40:27
  Turner,
• 40:27
  who's
• 40:28
  a
• 40:28
  very
• 40:28
  important
• 40:29
  social
• 40:29
  theorist
• 40:30
  in
• 40:30
  our
• 40:30
  times.
• 40:30
  He
• 40:31
  wrote
• 40:31
  several
• 40:32
  books
• 40:32
  about
• 40:33
  the
• 40:33
  problem
• 40:34
  of
• 40:34
  an
• 40:34
  expert.
• 40:35
  Because
• 40:35
  really,
• 40:37
  in
• 40:37
  almost
• 40:37
  anything
• 40:38
  except
• 40:39
  extremely
• 40:40
  technical
• 40:41
  kind
• 40:41
  of
• 40:41
  matter,
• 40:42
  you
• 40:42
  know,
• 40:43
  and
• 40:43
  in
• 40:43
  the
• 40:43
  human
• 40:44
  sciences
• 40:44
  and
• 40:45
  the
• 40:45
  world
• 40:45
  of
• 40:46
  human
• 40:46
  beings,
• 40:47
  nothing
• 40:47
  is
• 40:47
  unconnected.
• 40:48
  So
• 40:49
  an
• 40:49
  expert
• 40:50
  is
• 40:50
  a
• 40:51
  way
• 40:51
  to
• 40:51
  promote
• 40:52
  ignorance.
• 40:53
  Really.
• 40:57
  And
• 40:57
  that
• 40:57
  takes
• 40:57
  us
• 40:58
  to
• 40:58
  university
• 40:58
  culture
• 40:59
  of
• 40:59
  nowadays.
• 41:00
  I
• 41:00
  know
• 41:00
  you're
• 41:00
  very
• 41:00
  critical
• 41:01
  of
• 41:01
  that
• 41:01
  culture
• 41:01
  and
• 41:02
  who
• 41:02
  cannot
• 41:02
  be.
• 41:03
  Who
• 41:03
  has
• 41:03
  seen
• 41:03
  what
• 41:04
  happens
• 41:04
  inside
• 41:04
  the
• 41:04
  university.
• 41:05
  Would
• 41:06
  it
• 41:06
  be
• 41:06
  fair
• 41:06
  then
• 41:07
  to
• 41:07
  say,
• 41:08
  and
• 41:08
  I'm
• 41:08
  putting
• 41:09
  these
• 41:09
  words
• 41:09
  into
• 41:09
  your
• 41:10
  mouth,
• 41:10
  maybe
• 41:10
  they
• 41:10
  are
• 41:11
  mine,
• 41:11
  that
• 41:11
  current
• 41:12
  days
• 41:12
  universities
• 41:13
  create
• 41:13
  experts
• 41:14
  and
• 41:14
  therefore
• 41:15
  idiots,
• 41:15
  which
• 41:15
  are
• 41:16
  all
• 41:16
  too
• 41:16
  specialized.
• 41:17
  Yeah,
• 41:18
  that's
• 41:18
  a
• 41:19
  very
• 41:19
  important
• 41:19
  word.
• 41:19
  It's
• 41:19
  interesting
• 41:20
  that
• 41:20
  I
• 41:21
  hear
• 41:21
  this
• 41:22
  and
• 41:22
  read
• 41:23
  this
• 41:23
  word
• 41:24
  increasingly.
• 41:24
  And
• 41:25
  a
• 41:25
  few
• 41:25
  years
• 41:25
  ago
• 41:25
  I
• 41:26
  was
• 41:26
  reprimanded
• 41:27
  of
• 41:27
  using
• 41:28
  that
• 41:29
  word
• 41:29
  idiot.
• 41:30
  Now,
• 41:30
  interestingly,
• 41:30
  idiot
• 41:31
  has
• 41:31
  a
• 41:31
  Greek
• 41:31
  etymology
• 41:32
  which
• 41:33
  is
• 41:33
  basically
• 41:33
  the
• 41:34
  same,
• 41:34
  same
• 41:34
  as
• 41:34
  we
• 41:35
  think
• 41:35
  about
• 41:35
  idiosyncrasy.
• 41:37
  So
• 41:37
  the
• 41:37
  idiot
• 41:38
  in
• 41:38
  a
• 41:38
  Greek
• 41:38
  meant
• 41:39
  a
• 41:39
  purely
• 41:39
  private
• 41:40
  man
• 41:40
  who
• 41:40
  has
• 41:41
  no
• 41:41
  understanding
• 41:42
  of
• 41:42
  the
• 41:42
  broader
• 41:43
  situation
• 41:43
  of
• 41:43
  the.
• 41:44
  Doesn'T
• 41:44
  know,
• 41:44
  doesn't
• 41:44
  care
• 41:45
  community.
• 41:46
  Yes,
• 41:47
  and
• 41:48
  I
• 41:48
  would
• 41:48
  agree
• 41:48
  that
• 41:49
  the
• 41:49
  experts
• 41:49
  in
• 41:50
  the
• 41:50
  human
• 41:51
  worlds
• 41:52
  are
• 41:53
  some
• 41:53
  kind
• 41:53
  of.
• 41:54
  I
• 41:54
  don't
• 41:54
  want
• 41:54
  to
• 41:54
  repeat
• 41:55
  the
• 41:55
  word,
• 41:55
  but
• 41:56
  they
• 41:56
  are,
• 41:56
  because
• 41:56
  they
• 41:56
  are
• 41:57
  extremely
• 41:57
  narrow
• 41:58
  and
• 41:59
  promote
• 41:59
  this
• 42:00
  narrow
• 42:00
  field.
• 42:00
  And
• 42:00
  what
• 42:00
  is
• 42:01
  now
• 42:01
  happening
• 42:02
  in
• 42:02
  university
• 42:03
  life
• 42:03
  or
• 42:03
  around
• 42:04
  in
• 42:04
  publications
• 42:05
  promotions
• 42:06
  is
• 42:08
  really
• 42:08
  very,
• 42:08
  very
• 42:09
  disheartening.
• 42:09
  This
• 42:09
  is
• 42:10
  the
• 42:10
  undermining
• 42:10
  of
• 42:10
  the
• 42:10
  university,
• 42:11
  which
• 42:11
  after
• 42:11
  its
• 42:12
  university
• 42:12
  means
• 42:13
  universal
• 42:14
  kind
• 42:15
  of
• 42:15
  knowledge.
• 42:16
  And
• 42:16
  it's
• 42:16
  also
• 42:16
  undermining
• 42:17
  democracy
• 42:17
  at
• 42:18
  the
• 42:18
  same
• 42:18
  time
• 42:18
  because
• 42:18
  we
• 42:19
  create
• 42:19
  these
• 42:19
  experts
• 42:20
  who
• 42:20
  are
• 42:21
  specialists
• 42:22
  and
• 42:22
  of
• 42:22
  course
• 42:22
  they
• 42:22
  get
• 42:23
  promoted
• 42:23
  because
• 42:23
  they
• 42:24
  do
• 42:24
  research
• 42:24
  on
• 42:24
  one
• 42:25
  topic
• 42:25
  and
• 42:26
  they
• 42:26
  write
• 42:26
  10,
• 42:26
  15
• 42:27
  articles
• 42:27
  on
• 42:28
  one
• 42:28
  topic
• 42:29
  and
• 42:29
  that
• 42:29
  qualifies
• 42:30
  them
• 42:30
  for
• 42:30
  a
• 42:30
  post.
• 42:31
  And
• 42:31
  I
• 42:31
  mean,
• 42:32
  it's
• 42:32
  so
• 42:32
  obvious
• 42:32
  that
• 42:33
  this
• 42:33
  is
• 42:33
  a
• 42:33
  catastrophe
• 42:34
  that
• 42:34
  one
• 42:34
  wonders
• 42:34
  why
• 42:35
  the
• 42:35
  system
• 42:35
  doesn't
• 42:35
  change.
• 42:36
  Yes,
• 42:36
  that
• 42:37
  is
• 42:37
  that
• 42:37
  we're
• 42:38
  into
• 42:38
  the
• 42:38
  heart
• 42:38
  of
• 42:38
  the
• 42:38
  problem.
• 42:39
  Because
• 42:39
  I
• 42:39
  think
• 42:40
  this
• 42:40
  is
• 42:40
  promoted.
• 42:41
  Exactly.
• 42:41
  Because
• 42:42
  it
• 42:42
  promotes
• 42:42
  ignorance.
• 42:44
  And
• 42:44
  this
• 42:44
  is
• 42:44
  a
• 42:44
  new
• 42:45
  situation.
• 42:45
  And
• 42:46
  this
• 42:46
  new
• 42:46
  situation
• 42:46
  is
• 42:47
  that
• 42:48
  we
• 42:48
  are
• 42:48
  now
• 42:48
  increasingly
• 42:49
  ruled
• 42:49
  by
• 42:50
  people.
• 42:50
  And
• 42:51
  it's
• 42:51
  not
• 42:51
  just
• 42:52
  Trump
• 42:53
  and
• 42:53
  then
• 42:53
  these
• 42:54
  kind
• 42:54
  of
• 42:54
  the
• 42:54
  usual
• 42:55
  candidates,
• 42:55
  but
• 42:55
  it
• 42:56
  goes
• 42:56
  into
• 42:56
  almost
• 42:56
  everywhere
• 42:58
  which
• 42:58
  don't
• 42:58
  want
• 42:59
  people
• 42:59
  around
• 43:00
  who
• 43:00
  think.
• 43:02
  And
• 43:02
  that's
• 43:02
  a
• 43:02
  very
• 43:03
  dangerous
• 43:03
  kind
• 43:03
  of
• 43:04
  situation
• 43:04
  because
• 43:04
  there
• 43:05
  is
• 43:05
  no
• 43:05
  way
• 43:05
  that
• 43:07
  those
• 43:07
  who
• 43:07
  Promote
• 43:08
  this
• 43:09
  straight
• 43:10
  jacketing
• 43:11
  of
• 43:12
  university
• 43:13
  life,
• 43:13
  that
• 43:13
  this
• 43:14
  undermines
• 43:14
  any
• 43:15
  kind
• 43:15
  of
• 43:15
  knowledge
• 43:16
  and
• 43:16
  culture
• 43:16
  and
• 43:17
  understanding.
• 43:18
  So
• 43:19
  this
• 43:19
  is
• 43:19
  done
• 43:20
  purposefully.
• 43:22
  Why?
• 43:23
  I
• 43:23
  don't
• 43:23
  know.
• 43:24
  Let's
• 43:25
  maybe
• 43:26
  try
• 43:26
  to
• 43:26
  connect
• 43:26
  that
• 43:27
  with
• 43:27
  your
• 43:27
  own
• 43:27
  biography.
• 43:28
  You
• 43:29
  have
• 43:29
  a
• 43:29
  very
• 43:29
  critical
• 43:29
  view
• 43:30
  on
• 43:30
  the
• 43:30
  culture
• 43:30
  that
• 43:31
  we
• 43:31
  live
• 43:31
  in.
• 43:32
  You
• 43:32
  lived
• 43:32
  under
• 43:33
  two
• 43:33
  fundamentally
• 43:34
  different
• 43:34
  systems.
• 43:35
  You
• 43:35
  grew
• 43:35
  up
• 43:35
  in
• 43:35
  Hungary
• 43:35
  under
• 43:36
  communist
• 43:36
  rule.
• 43:37
  You
• 43:37
  then
• 43:38
  migrated,
• 43:39
  one
• 43:39
  could
• 43:39
  say,
• 43:40
  or
• 43:40
  being
• 43:41
  exiled
• 43:41
  to
• 43:42
  the
• 43:42
  US
• 43:42
  doing
• 43:42
  your
• 43:42
  PhD
• 43:43
  there.
• 43:43
  Anyway,
• 43:44
  you
• 43:44
  took
• 43:44
  the
• 43:44
  decision
• 43:44
  to
• 43:45
  leave
• 43:45
  Hungary.
• 43:46
  You
• 43:46
  were
• 43:46
  educated
• 43:47
  in
• 43:47
  economy.
• 43:48
  And
• 43:48
  then,
• 43:48
  of
• 43:48
  course,
• 43:49
  I
• 43:49
  would
• 43:50
  imagine
• 43:50
  that
• 43:51
  you
• 43:51
  created
• 43:51
  a
• 43:51
  certain
• 43:52
  sensitivity
• 43:53
  toward
• 43:54
  the
• 43:54
  concept
• 43:55
  of
• 43:55
  freedom,
• 43:55
  because
• 43:56
  even
• 43:56
  under
• 43:56
  communist
• 43:57
  rule,
• 43:57
  it
• 43:58
  was
• 43:58
  claimed
• 43:58
  that
• 43:58
  we
• 43:59
  live
• 43:59
  in
• 43:59
  the
• 43:59
  freest
• 44:00
  society
• 44:00
  ever.
• 44:00
  And
• 44:01
  then
• 44:01
  you
• 44:01
  come
• 44:01
  to
• 44:01
  terms
• 44:02
  access,
• 44:02
  supposedly
• 44:03
  a
• 44:04
  state
• 44:04
  that
• 44:04
  cares
• 44:05
  about
• 44:05
  freedom.
• 44:05
  And
• 44:05
  there
• 44:05
  was
• 44:06
  also
• 44:06
  total
• 44:06
  freedom.
• 44:07
  So
• 44:07
  one
• 44:08
  might
• 44:08
  get
• 44:08
  a
• 44:08
  bit
• 44:08
  suspicious
• 44:09
  biographically,
• 44:10
  wouldn't
• 44:11
  one?
• 44:11
  Yes,
• 44:12
  yes,
• 44:13
  of
• 44:13
  course.
• 44:13
  When
• 44:13
  I
• 44:13
  was
• 44:14
  living
• 44:14
  in
• 44:14
  Hungary,
• 44:14
  the
• 44:15
  question
• 44:15
  of
• 44:15
  freedom
• 44:16
  was
• 44:16
  very
• 44:16
  fundamental,
• 44:17
  and
• 44:17
  there
• 44:17
  was
• 44:17
  evidently
• 44:18
  no
• 44:18
  freedom.
• 44:19
  Then
• 44:20
  I
• 44:20
  went
• 44:20
  to
• 44:20
  Texas,
• 44:21
  actually,
• 44:22
  I
• 44:23
  still
• 44:23
  kept.
• 44:23
  I
• 44:23
  still
• 44:24
  have
• 44:24
  a
• 44:24
  Hungarian
• 44:24
  passport,
• 44:25
  so
• 44:25
  I
• 44:25
  wasn't
• 44:26
  exiled.
• 44:26
  It
• 44:26
  was
• 44:27
  a
• 44:27
  complex
• 44:27
  inter.
• 44:28
  And
• 44:28
  they
• 44:28
  said
• 44:29
  the
• 44:29
  details
• 44:29
  are
• 44:29
  so
• 44:30
  complicated
• 44:30
  and
• 44:30
  we
• 44:31
  don't
• 44:31
  have
• 44:31
  time
• 44:31
  for
• 44:31
  that.
• 44:32
  But
• 44:32
  I
• 44:33
  was
• 44:33
  very
• 44:34
  surprised
• 44:35
  about
• 44:35
  many
• 44:36
  elements
• 44:36
  of
• 44:37
  American
• 44:37
  culture
• 44:38
  and
• 44:38
  the
• 44:39
  complexities
• 44:40
  of
• 44:40
  freedom.
• 44:40
  Then
• 44:40
  I
• 44:41
  went
• 44:41
  back
• 44:41
  to
• 44:41
  Hungary,
• 44:41
  then
• 44:42
  I
• 44:42
  went
• 44:42
  back
• 44:42
  to
• 44:42
  London,
• 44:43
  and
• 44:43
  I
• 44:43
  lived
• 44:43
  one
• 44:44
  year
• 44:44
  after
• 44:44
  the
• 44:44
  last
• 44:45
  year
• 44:45
  of
• 44:45
  Margaret
• 44:45
  Thatcher's
• 44:46
  rule,
• 44:47
  which
• 44:48
  was
• 44:48
  also
• 44:48
  very
• 44:48
  interesting
• 44:49
  in
• 44:49
  the
• 44:49
  freedom
• 44:50
  agenda,
• 44:51
  a
• 44:51
  kind
• 44:51
  of
• 44:51
  freedom
• 44:52
  agenda.
• 44:52
  So
• 44:52
  was
• 44:52
  it
• 44:53
  freedom?
• 44:53
  Was
• 44:53
  it
• 44:53
  not
• 44:53
  about
• 44:54
  freedom
• 44:54
  then?
• 44:54
  I
• 44:54
  lived
• 44:55
  in
• 44:55
  Italy.
• 44:56
  So
• 44:57
  this
• 44:57
  is
• 44:57
  why
• 44:57
  I
• 44:57
  try
• 44:57
  to
• 44:58
  really
• 44:58
  capture
• 45:00
  in
• 45:00
  this
• 45:00
  book
• 45:01
  which
• 45:01
  I'm
• 45:01
  writing
• 45:02
  about,
• 45:02
  of
• 45:03
  what
• 45:03
  is
• 45:03
  really
• 45:04
  the
• 45:04
  heart
• 45:04
  of
• 45:04
  a
• 45:04
  meaningful
• 45:05
  idea
• 45:05
  of
• 45:06
  freedom.
• 45:06
  And
• 45:06
  there
• 45:07
  I
• 45:07
  have
• 45:07
  to
• 45:07
  mention
• 45:07
  one
• 45:08
  particular
• 45:08
  word
• 45:08
  that
• 45:08
  is
• 45:09
  charis,
• 45:09
  and
• 45:10
  this
• 45:10
  is
• 45:10
  another
• 45:10
  Greek
• 45:10
  word,
• 45:11
  charis.
• 45:11
  What
• 45:12
  does
• 45:12
  it
• 45:12
  mean?
• 45:12
  Charis
• 45:13
  means
• 45:13
  Greece.
• 45:15
  And
• 45:15
  they
• 45:15
  are
• 45:15
  very
• 45:16
  close
• 45:16
  to
• 45:16
  each
• 45:16
  other.
• 45:16
  In
• 45:17
  fact,
• 45:17
  Greece,
• 45:17
  the
• 45:17
  English
• 45:18
  word,
• 45:18
  is
• 45:18
  a
• 45:18
  derivative
• 45:19
  of
• 45:19
  the
• 45:19
  Greek
• 45:20
  word
• 45:20
  charis.
• 45:20
  But
• 45:21
  charis
• 45:21
  meant
• 45:22
  something
• 45:22
  different
• 45:23
  than
• 45:23
  Greece.
• 45:25
  It
• 45:25
  was
• 45:25
  less
• 45:26
  focused
• 45:26
  on,
• 45:27
  because
• 45:27
  Greece
• 45:28
  in
• 45:28
  English
• 45:28
  means
• 45:29
  either
• 45:29
  is
• 45:29
  divine
• 45:30
  Greece,
• 45:30
  so
• 45:30
  it
• 45:30
  is
• 45:31
  strictly
• 45:31
  theological,
• 45:32
  or
• 45:32
  there
• 45:33
  is
• 45:33
  Greece
• 45:33
  connected
• 45:34
  to
• 45:34
  beauty
• 45:34
  and
• 45:34
  cosmetics.
• 45:35
  So
• 45:35
  it's
• 45:35
  a
• 45:36
  very
• 45:36
  specifically
• 45:37
  limited.
• 45:37
  Just
• 45:37
  the
• 45:38
  beauty
• 45:38
  component.
• 45:38
  Hemingway
• 45:39
  famously
• 45:40
  said,
• 45:40
  beauty
• 45:41
  is
• 45:41
  grace
• 45:42
  under
• 45:42
  pressure.
• 45:43
  Yes,
• 45:43
  it
• 45:44
  can
• 45:44
  be.
• 45:44
  But,
• 45:44
  you
• 45:44
  know,
• 45:45
  it
• 45:45
  was
• 45:46
  also
• 45:46
  said
• 45:46
  that
• 45:47
  beauty
• 45:47
  is
• 45:47
  truth
• 45:48
  and
• 45:48
  truth
• 45:48
  beauty.
• 45:49
  And
• 45:50
  that's
• 45:50
  Keats
• 45:51
  and
• 45:51
  Dostoevsky
• 45:52
  said
• 45:52
  beauty
• 45:52
  will
• 45:53
  save
• 45:53
  the
• 45:53
  world.
• 45:54
  Even
• 45:54
  beauty
• 45:55
  is
• 45:55
  a
• 45:55
  very
• 45:55
  complex
• 45:56
  world.
• 45:56
  Then
• 45:56
  we
• 45:57
  cannot
• 45:57
  reduce
• 45:57
  beauty
• 45:58
  to
• 45:58
  its
• 45:58
  commercialization
• 45:59
  because
• 45:59
  then
• 45:59
  we
• 45:59
  reduce
• 46:00
  liberalism
• 46:01
  and
• 46:01
  freedom.
• 46:01
  Let's
• 46:01
  stay
• 46:01
  with
• 46:01
  Charis.
• 46:02
  Let's
• 46:02
  stay
• 46:02
  with
• 46:03
  Charis.
• 46:03
  Absolutely.
• 46:04
  So
• 46:04
  charis
• 46:05
  meant
• 46:06
  both
• 46:07
  for
• 46:07
  the
• 46:07
  Greeks.
• 46:08
  It
• 46:08
  had
• 46:08
  a
• 46:08
  divine
• 46:09
  component,
• 46:10
  it
• 46:10
  had
• 46:10
  an
• 46:10
  aesthetical,
• 46:11
  if
• 46:11
  you
• 46:11
  want,
• 46:12
  component,
• 46:12
  but
• 46:13
  it
• 46:13
  also
• 46:13
  had
• 46:13
  a
• 46:13
  social
• 46:14
  component,
• 46:14
  which
• 46:14
  for
• 46:15
  me
• 46:15
  as
• 46:15
  an
• 46:15
  anthroposis
• 46:16
  and
• 46:16
  charis
• 46:17
  meant
• 46:17
  basically
• 46:18
  a
• 46:18
  kind
• 46:18
  of
• 46:18
  kind
• 46:19
  benevolence
• 46:20
  or
• 46:21
  favor.
• 46:21
  So
• 46:22
  charis
• 46:22
  meant
• 46:23
  in
• 46:23
  a
• 46:23
  fundamental
• 46:24
  trust
• 46:24
  and
• 46:25
  benevolence
• 46:25
  to
• 46:26
  the
• 46:26
  others
• 46:26
  as
• 46:26
  the
• 46:27
  foundation
• 46:27
  of
• 46:28
  the.
• 46:29
  Because
• 46:29
  the
• 46:30
  Greek
• 46:30
  democracy
• 46:30
  was
• 46:30
  based
• 46:31
  on
• 46:31
  caris,
• 46:31
  justice
• 46:32
  was
• 46:32
  based
• 46:32
  on
• 46:33
  friendship.
• 46:33
  And
• 46:33
  there's
• 46:33
  a
• 46:34
  good
• 46:34
  literature
• 46:34
  that
• 46:34
  up
• 46:35
  to
• 46:35
  Aristotle
• 46:36
  that
• 46:37
  friendship
• 46:38
  or
• 46:38
  philia,
• 46:39
  and
• 46:39
  philia
• 46:40
  is
• 46:40
  broader
• 46:40
  than
• 46:41
  friendship
• 46:41
  is
• 46:42
  a
• 46:42
  foundation
• 46:42
  of
• 46:42
  polis.
• 46:43
  Isn't
• 46:43
  that
• 46:43
  a
• 46:44
  bit
• 46:44
  of
• 46:44
  a
• 46:44
  Christian
• 46:45
  view
• 46:45
  on
• 46:45
  Cardis?
• 46:46
  It's
• 46:46
  like
• 46:46
  love
• 46:47
  thy
• 46:47
  neighbor.
• 46:48
  It
• 46:48
  is
• 46:48
  very
• 46:48
  similar
• 46:49
  and
• 46:49
  of
• 46:49
  course,
• 46:49
  but
• 46:50
  it's
• 46:50
  Greek.
• 46:51
  So
• 46:51
  in
• 46:51
  a
• 46:51
  sense
• 46:52
  it
• 46:52
  was
• 46:53
  pre
• 46:53
  Christian.
• 46:53
  Of
• 46:53
  course.
• 46:54
  Of
• 46:54
  course,
• 46:54
  the
• 46:54
  Christian
• 46:55
  element
• 46:56
  relies
• 46:56
  much
• 46:57
  on
• 46:58
  the
• 46:58
  Greek
• 46:59
  culture
• 47:00
  as
• 47:00
  much
• 47:00
  it
• 47:00
  relies
• 47:01
  on
• 47:02
  the
• 47:02
  prophetic
• 47:02
  culture.
• 47:03
  It
• 47:03
  doesn't
• 47:03
  rely
• 47:04
  on
• 47:04
  the
• 47:04
  sacrificial
• 47:05
  priestly
• 47:06
  culture.
• 47:06
  It's
• 47:07
  a
• 47:07
  very
• 47:07
  important
• 47:07
  difference.
• 47:09
  So
• 47:10
  for
• 47:10
  not
• 47:10
  only,
• 47:11
  but
• 47:11
  also
• 47:11
  biographical
• 47:12
  reasons,
• 47:13
  you
• 47:13
  have
• 47:13
  created
• 47:14
  for
• 47:14
  yourself
• 47:14
  a
• 47:15
  certain
• 47:15
  sensitivity
• 47:16
  against
• 47:17
  ideological
• 47:18
  uses
• 47:18
  of
• 47:18
  the
• 47:19
  concept
• 47:19
  of
• 47:19
  freedom
• 47:20
  and
• 47:20
  liberty.
• 47:21
  And
• 47:21
  you
• 47:21
  think
• 47:21
  right
• 47:21
  now,
• 47:22
  am
• 47:22
  I
• 47:23
  putting
• 47:23
  this
• 47:23
  correctly,
• 47:24
  that
• 47:24
  this
• 47:24
  concept
• 47:24
  has
• 47:25
  been
• 47:25
  culturally
• 47:25
  harmful,
• 47:25
  hijacked
• 47:26
  at
• 47:26
  the
• 47:26
  present
• 47:27
  time.
• 47:28
  You
• 47:28
  mean
• 47:28
  freedom?
• 47:29
  Yes,
• 47:29
  I
• 47:30
  mean
• 47:30
  freedom
• 47:30
  has
• 47:30
  been
• 47:31
  hijacked
• 47:31
  since
• 47:32
  a
• 47:32
  long
• 47:32
  time
• 47:33
  in
• 47:33
  many
• 47:33
  different
• 47:34
  kind
• 47:34
  of
• 47:35
  ways.
• 47:35
  And
• 47:35
  ideology
• 47:36
  and
• 47:36
  propaganda
• 47:37
  are
• 47:37
  very,
• 47:37
  very
• 47:38
  important
• 47:39
  considerations
• 47:40
  here.
• 47:40
  So
• 47:41
  how
• 47:41
  can
• 47:41
  freedom
• 47:42
  be
• 47:42
  an
• 47:42
  element
• 47:43
  of
• 47:43
  propaganda?
• 47:45
  And
• 47:45
  this
• 47:45
  goes
• 47:45
  into
• 47:46
  the
• 47:46
  origins
• 47:46
  of
• 47:47
  much
• 47:47
  of
• 47:47
  the
• 47:47
  current
• 47:48
  ruling.
• 47:49
  If
• 47:49
  you
• 47:49
  want
• 47:50
  political
• 47:51
  ideologies,
• 47:52
  for
• 47:52
  example,
• 47:53
  it
• 47:53
  can
• 47:53
  be
• 47:53
  traced
• 47:53
  back
• 47:54
  to
• 47:54
  Walter
• 47:54
  Lippy.
• 47:55
  Lippman.
• 47:55
  Walter
• 47:56
  Lippmann
• 47:56
  was
• 47:56
  an
• 47:56
  American
• 47:57
  political
• 47:57
  scientist
• 47:58
  who
• 47:59
  basically
• 47:59
  in
• 47:59
  the
• 48:00
  1920s
• 48:00
  and
• 48:00
  in
• 48:01
  the
• 48:01
  30s,
• 48:01
  was
• 48:02
  saying
• 48:02
  that
• 48:03
  it
• 48:03
  is
• 48:04
  legitimate
• 48:05
  to
• 48:05
  use
• 48:05
  propaganda
• 48:07
  to
• 48:07
  salvage
• 48:08
  democracy.
• 48:09
  And
• 48:09
  that
• 48:09
  was
• 48:09
  a
• 48:09
  very,
• 48:10
  very
• 48:10
  problematic
• 48:11
  idea.
• 48:12
  Already
• 48:13
  at
• 48:13
  that
• 48:13
  time,
• 48:14
  he
• 48:14
  had
• 48:14
  also.
• 48:15
  A
• 48:15
  hand
• 48:15
  in
• 48:15
  creating
• 48:15
  the
• 48:16
  concept
• 48:16
  of
• 48:16
  neoliberalism.
• 48:17
  Did
• 48:17
  he?
• 48:18
  Absolutely.
• 48:18
  I
• 48:19
  mean,
• 48:19
  the
• 48:19
  Mont
• 48:19
  Pelerin
• 48:20
  Society,
• 48:21
  it
• 48:21
  was
• 48:21
  based
• 48:21
  on
• 48:22
  the
• 48:22
  meetings
• 48:22
  related
• 48:23
  to
• 48:23
  Walter
• 48:24
  Riepman.
• 48:24
  So
• 48:25
  there
• 48:25
  are
• 48:25
  all
• 48:25
  kinds
• 48:25
  of
• 48:26
  obscure
• 48:27
  connections
• 48:28
  there.
• 48:29
  Just
• 48:30
  as
• 48:30
  in
• 48:30
  terms
• 48:30
  of
• 48:31
  propaganda,
• 48:31
  there
• 48:32
  are
• 48:32
  obscure
• 48:33
  connections
• 48:34
  between
• 48:34
  late
• 48:35
  19th
• 48:35
  century
• 48:36
  American
• 48:36
  business
• 48:37
  propaganda,
• 48:37
  First
• 48:38
  World
• 48:38
  War
• 48:38
  propaganda,
• 48:40
  Stalinist
• 48:41
  propaganda,
• 48:41
  Goebbels
• 48:42
  propaganda,
• 48:42
  these
• 48:43
  sort
• 48:43
  of
• 48:43
  all
• 48:44
  circling
• 48:44
  around
• 48:45
  themselves.
• 48:46
  And
• 48:46
  all
• 48:46
  these
• 48:46
  propagandas
• 48:47
  were
• 48:47
  supposedly
• 48:48
  that,
• 48:49
  you
• 48:49
  know,
• 48:49
  we
• 48:49
  can
• 48:49
  lie
• 48:51
  in
• 48:51
  the
• 48:51
  interest
• 48:52
  of
• 48:52
  the
• 48:52
  common
• 48:53
  good,
• 48:53
  whatever
• 48:54
  way
• 48:54
  it
• 48:54
  is
• 48:54
  defined.
• 48:55
  Is
• 48:55
  it
• 48:55
  too
• 48:56
  simple
• 48:57
  to
• 48:58
  claim
• 48:59
  that
• 48:59
  one
• 48:59
  of
• 48:59
  the
• 49:00
  main
• 49:00
  tasks
• 49:00
  of
• 49:00
  the
• 49:01
  humanities
• 49:01
  and
• 49:01
  the
• 49:02
  social
• 49:02
  sciences
• 49:03
  is
• 49:03
  to
• 49:04
  make
• 49:04
  us
• 49:04
  aware
• 49:05
  of
• 49:05
  the
• 49:06
  effects
• 49:06
  and
• 49:06
  the
• 49:06
  Power
• 49:07
  of
• 49:07
  propaganda,
• 49:08
  that
• 49:08
  we,
• 49:08
  as
• 49:09
  it
• 49:09
  were,
• 49:09
  sharpen
• 49:09
  our
• 49:10
  ears
• 49:10
  and
• 49:10
  that
• 49:10
  the
• 49:10
  humanities
• 49:11
  are
• 49:11
  in
• 49:12
  that
• 49:12
  business.
• 49:13
  That
• 49:13
  is
• 49:13
  absolutely
• 49:14
  fundamental.
• 49:14
  And
• 49:15
  that
• 49:15
  can
• 49:16
  be
• 49:16
  one
• 49:16
  of
• 49:16
  the
• 49:16
  reasons
• 49:17
  why
• 49:18
  thinking
• 49:18
  is
• 49:19
  not
• 49:19
  being,
• 49:20
  in
• 49:20
  a
• 49:21
  very
• 49:21
  serious
• 49:21
  sense,
• 49:22
  demoted.
• 49:23
  Because
• 49:23
  what
• 49:23
  is
• 49:23
  now
• 49:23
  happening
• 49:24
  to
• 49:25
  academic
• 49:26
  life
• 49:27
  is
• 49:27
  extremely
• 49:28
  problematic.
• 49:29
  For
• 49:30
  example,
• 49:30
  I
• 49:30
  was
• 49:30
  in
• 49:31
  England
• 49:31
  in
• 49:32
  the
• 49:32
  late
• 49:32
  1980s
• 49:33
  and
• 49:33
  I
• 49:34
  could
• 49:34
  still
• 49:35
  see
• 49:35
  and
• 49:36
  experience
• 49:36
  how
• 49:37
  academic
• 49:38
  life
• 49:38
  functioned
• 49:39
  there
• 49:40
  until
• 49:40
  it
• 49:41
  was
• 49:41
  being
• 49:42
  really
• 49:42
  systematically
• 49:44
  destroyed
• 49:44
  in
• 49:44
  several
• 49:45
  different
• 49:45
  kinds
• 49:45
  of
• 49:45
  space.
• 49:46
  In
• 49:46
  the
• 49:46
  names
• 49:46
  of
• 49:46
  market
• 49:47
  logic,
• 49:47
  in.
• 49:47
  The
• 49:47
  name
• 49:48
  of
• 49:48
  market
• 49:48
  logic,
• 49:48
  or
• 49:49
  in
• 49:49
  the
• 49:49
  names
• 49:49
  of.
• 49:49
  Of.
• 49:50
  I
• 49:51
  don't
• 49:51
  know
• 49:51
  whether
• 49:51
  it
• 49:51
  was
• 49:51
  in
• 49:51
  the
• 49:52
  name
• 49:52
  of
• 49:52
  freedom,
• 49:52
  but
• 49:52
  in
• 49:53
  the
• 49:53
  name
• 49:53
  of
• 49:53
  maybe
• 49:53
  just
• 49:54
  a
• 49:54
  market
• 49:54
  logic
• 49:55
  kind
• 49:55
  of
• 49:55
  freedom
• 49:55
  or
• 49:56
  efficiency
• 49:56
  or
• 49:57
  greater
• 49:58
  transparency.
• 49:59
  I
• 49:59
  don't
• 49:59
  know
• 50:00
  what
• 50:00
  exactly.
• 50:00
  Because
• 50:00
  these
• 50:01
  verse
• 50:01
  travel,
• 50:02
  ideological
• 50:03
  verse.
• 50:04
  And
• 50:05
  it's
• 50:05
  interesting
• 50:05
  because
• 50:06
  we
• 50:06
  haven't
• 50:06
  yet.
• 50:06
  Mentioned
• 50:07
  Michel
• 50:07
  Foucault,
• 50:08
  a
• 50:08
  French
• 50:09
  historian
• 50:10
  and.
• 50:10
  Philosopher
• 50:10
  and
• 50:10
  philosopher,
• 50:11
  very
• 50:11
  important
• 50:11
  philosopher.
• 50:12
  And
• 50:12
  Michel
• 50:13
  Foucault,
• 50:14
  in
• 50:14
  some
• 50:14
  of
• 50:14
  his
• 50:15
  late
• 50:15
  inter.
• 50:15
  Last
• 50:15
  interviews
• 50:16
  in
• 50:16
  the
• 50:16
  early
• 50:16
  1980s
• 50:17
  was
• 50:18
  very
• 50:18
  much
• 50:18
  saying
• 50:19
  that
• 50:20
  freedom
• 50:20
  is
• 50:21
  very
• 50:21
  important,
• 50:21
  that
• 50:22
  freedom
• 50:22
  is
• 50:22
  something
• 50:22
  which
• 50:23
  has
• 50:23
  to
• 50:23
  be
• 50:23
  exerted.
• 50:25
  It
• 50:26
  can't
• 50:26
  be
• 50:26
  ideologically
• 50:28
  neutralized
• 50:29
  or
• 50:30
  turned
• 50:30
  into
• 50:31
  an
• 50:31
  ideology.
• 50:32
  It
• 50:32
  can
• 50:32
  be.
• 50:33
  Everything
• 50:33
  can
• 50:33
  be
• 50:33
  into
• 50:34
  an
• 50:34
  ideology.
• 50:35
  But
• 50:35
  we
• 50:35
  have
• 50:35
  to
• 50:36
  somehow,
• 50:36
  again,
• 50:36
  live
• 50:37
  freedom.
• 50:37
  That's
• 50:37
  not
• 50:37
  what
• 50:38
  he
• 50:38
  said,
• 50:38
  but
• 50:38
  practice
• 50:39
  freedom.
• 50:39
  And
• 50:40
  that
• 50:40
  is
• 50:40
  what
• 50:40
  is
• 50:40
  fundamental.
• 50:42
  Let's
• 50:43
  turn
• 50:43
  to
• 50:43
  give
• 50:44
  our
• 50:44
  listeners
• 50:44
  a
• 50:45
  sense
• 50:45
  of
• 50:45
  how
• 50:45
  broad
• 50:45
  your
• 50:46
  interests
• 50:46
  are
• 50:46
  and
• 50:46
  how
• 50:46
  specific
• 50:47
  they
• 50:47
  are
• 50:47
  at
• 50:47
  the
• 50:48
  same
• 50:48
  time
• 50:48
  to
• 50:49
  the
• 50:49
  idea
• 50:49
  of
• 50:49
  the
• 50:49
  rise
• 50:50
  of
• 50:50
  capitalism.
• 50:51
  Because
• 50:51
  it's
• 50:51
  a
• 50:52
  hallmark
• 50:52
  of
• 50:52
  modern
• 50:52
  society,
• 50:53
  societies,
• 50:53
  liberal
• 50:54
  societies,
• 50:54
  that
• 50:55
  we
• 50:55
  address
• 50:55
  them
• 50:55
  as
• 50:56
  capitalistic
• 50:57
  societies.
• 50:58
  It
• 50:58
  means
• 50:59
  basically
• 50:59
  that
• 50:59
  you're
• 51:00
  allowed
• 51:00
  to
• 51:00
  own
• 51:00
  things,
• 51:01
  that
• 51:01
  there's
• 51:02
  a
• 51:02
  kind
• 51:02
  of
• 51:02
  competition
• 51:03
  and
• 51:03
  that
• 51:03
  you
• 51:03
  have
• 51:04
  to
• 51:04
  be
• 51:05
  able
• 51:05
  to
• 51:05
  keep
• 51:05
  the
• 51:05
  gains
• 51:06
  of
• 51:06
  that
• 51:06
  competition
• 51:07
  for
• 51:07
  yourself.
• 51:08
  Say
• 51:08
  this
• 51:08
  is
• 51:08
  the
• 51:08
  framework,
• 51:09
  more
• 51:09
  or
• 51:09
  less,
• 51:10
  and
• 51:10
  you
• 51:11
  say
• 51:11
  we
• 51:11
  understand
• 51:12
  capitalism
• 51:13
  poorly
• 51:13
  if
• 51:13
  we
• 51:14
  think
• 51:14
  that
• 51:15
  markets
• 51:16
  are
• 51:16
  the
• 51:16
  origins
• 51:17
  of
• 51:18
  capitalism.
• 51:19
  You
• 51:19
  think
• 51:19
  there's
• 51:19
  a
• 51:20
  different
• 51:20
  origin?
• 51:20
  Which
• 51:21
  one?
• 51:21
  Yes,
• 51:22
  thank
• 51:23
  you.
• 51:24
  I
• 51:24
  don't
• 51:24
  like
• 51:24
  the
• 51:24
  word
• 51:25
  capitalism,
• 51:25
  many
• 51:25
  of
• 51:25
  these
• 51:26
  words,
• 51:26
  because
• 51:26
  capitalism
• 51:27
  is
• 51:27
  associated,
• 51:27
  is
• 51:28
  a
• 51:28
  particular
• 51:28
  reading,
• 51:29
  which
• 51:30
  is
• 51:30
  of
• 51:30
  course
• 51:30
  Marx.
• 51:31
  And
• 51:31
  I
• 51:31
  don't
• 51:31
  have
• 51:32
  a
• 51:32
  great
• 51:33
  respect
• 51:33
  or
• 51:34
  interest
• 51:35
  in
• 51:35
  Marx,
• 51:36
  but
• 51:36
  very
• 51:37
  specifically
• 51:37
  I
• 51:37
  can
• 51:37
  see
• 51:38
  that
• 51:38
  the
• 51:38
  idea
• 51:39
  that
• 51:39
  capitalism
• 51:39
  is
• 51:40
  connected
• 51:40
  to
• 51:40
  markets,
• 51:41
  it's
• 51:41
  there
• 51:41
  in
• 51:42
  Ricardo.
• 51:43
  And
• 51:43
  Marx
• 51:43
  basically
• 51:44
  takes
• 51:44
  over
• 51:44
  Ricardo
• 51:45
  making
• 51:45
  a
• 51:45
  few
• 51:45
  changes.
• 51:46
  18Th
• 51:46
  century
• 51:46
  economic
• 51:47
  theory,
• 51:47
  if
• 51:47
  I'm
• 51:47
  not.
• 51:47
  No,
• 51:48
  ricardo
• 51:48
  is
• 51:48
  early
• 51:49
  19th
• 51:49
  century,
• 51:50
  1819
• 51:51
  is
• 51:51
  principles
• 51:52
  of
• 51:52
  political
• 51:52
  economy.
• 51:54
  The
• 51:54
  problem
• 51:54
  is
• 51:54
  that
• 51:55
  the
• 51:55
  modern
• 51:55
  economy
• 51:56
  didn't
• 51:56
  grow
• 51:57
  out
• 51:57
  of
• 51:57
  markets,
• 51:57
  but
• 51:58
  grew
• 51:58
  out
• 51:58
  of
• 51:59
  fairs
• 51:59
  or
• 51:59
  the
• 52:00
  fairground,
• 52:01
  like.
• 52:01
  The
• 52:01
  Alma
• 52:02
  here
• 52:02
  in
• 52:02
  St.
• 52:02
  Calen,
• 52:02
  for.
• 52:03
  Example,
• 52:03
  something
• 52:03
  like
• 52:03
  that.
• 52:04
  This
• 52:04
  is
• 52:04
  a
• 52:04
  simple
• 52:05
  fact
• 52:05
  of
• 52:05
  economic
• 52:05
  history,
• 52:06
  which
• 52:06
  has
• 52:06
  been
• 52:07
  ignored
• 52:07
  in
• 52:07
  the
• 52:08
  history
• 52:08
  of
• 52:08
  economics.
• 52:08
  And
• 52:09
  I
• 52:09
  think
• 52:09
  that's
• 52:09
  a
• 52:10
  fundamental
• 52:11
  misunderstanding,
• 52:12
  because
• 52:12
  a
• 52:12
  fair
• 52:13
  is
• 52:13
  something
• 52:13
  very
• 52:13
  different
• 52:14
  from
• 52:14
  a
• 52:14
  market.
• 52:15
  So
• 52:15
  let's
• 52:15
  just,
• 52:16
  in
• 52:16
  terms
• 52:16
  of
• 52:16
  knowledge,
• 52:16
  explain
• 52:17
  the
• 52:17
  difference.
• 52:17
  I
• 52:17
  think
• 52:18
  it's
• 52:18
  very
• 52:18
  important.
• 52:18
  Yeah.
• 52:19
  In
• 52:19
  terms
• 52:19
  of
• 52:19
  knowledge,
• 52:20
  if
• 52:20
  you
• 52:20
  go
• 52:20
  into
• 52:20
  a
• 52:21
  market,
• 52:21
  then
• 52:21
  a
• 52:22
  market
• 52:22
  is
• 52:22
  a
• 52:22
  local
• 52:22
  market,
• 52:23
  which
• 52:23
  basically
• 52:24
  every
• 52:24
  town
• 52:25
  had
• 52:25
  a
• 52:26
  market
• 52:26
  which
• 52:26
  extended
• 52:27
  to
• 52:27
  10,
• 52:28
  20
• 52:28
  kilometers
• 52:29
  or
• 52:29
  miles.
• 52:30
  People
• 52:30
  came
• 52:30
  to
• 52:31
  the
• 52:31
  same
• 52:31
  market,
• 52:31
  knew.
• 52:32
  The
• 52:32
  people,
• 52:32
  you
• 52:33
  know
• 52:33
  the
• 52:33
  seller,
• 52:33
  you
• 52:33
  know
• 52:34
  the
• 52:34
  products.
• 52:34
  Buyers
• 52:35
  and
• 52:35
  sellers
• 52:35
  knew
• 52:35
  each
• 52:36
  other,
• 52:36
  knew
• 52:36
  the
• 52:37
  products,
• 52:37
  knew
• 52:37
  who
• 52:38
  is
• 52:38
  producing
• 52:38
  what
• 52:39
  and
• 52:39
  how
• 52:39
  and
• 52:39
  whatever.
• 52:40
  So
• 52:40
  this
• 52:41
  was
• 52:41
  an
• 52:41
  informed,
• 52:42
  if
• 52:42
  you
• 52:42
  want,
• 52:42
  rational
• 52:43
  decision.
• 52:43
  A
• 52:44
  fair
• 52:44
  is
• 52:44
  something
• 52:44
  completely
• 52:45
  different.
• 52:45
  A
• 52:46
  fair
• 52:46
  is
• 52:46
  something
• 52:47
  once
• 52:47
  in
• 52:47
  a
• 52:47
  year,
• 52:48
  I
• 52:48
  think
• 52:48
  in
• 52:48
  Germany
• 52:49
  is
• 52:49
  called
• 52:49
  yar
• 52:49
  market.
• 52:50
  Yes.
• 52:50
  So
• 52:51
  it's
• 52:51
  a
• 52:51
  yearly
• 52:51
  market.
• 52:52
  For
• 52:52
  example,
• 52:52
  in
• 52:52
  Frankfurt.
• 52:53
  This
• 52:53
  is
• 52:53
  the
• 52:53
  place
• 52:54
  where
• 52:54
  you
• 52:54
  do
• 52:54
  irrational
• 52:55
  things.
• 52:55
  Absolutely.
• 52:56
  So
• 52:56
  it's
• 52:56
  only
• 52:57
  once
• 52:57
  in
• 52:57
  a
• 52:57
  year.
• 52:58
  It's
• 52:58
  connected
• 52:58
  with
• 52:59
  the
• 52:59
  carnival,
• 52:59
  for
• 53:00
  example.
• 53:01
  It
• 53:01
  is
• 53:01
  popular
• 53:02
  entertainment.
• 53:03
  Circus
• 53:03
  has
• 53:04
  come
• 53:04
  to
• 53:04
  town,
• 53:04
  circus
• 53:05
  is
• 53:05
  coming
• 53:05
  to
• 53:05
  town.
• 53:06
  And
• 53:06
  then
• 53:06
  you
• 53:06
  don't
• 53:07
  know
• 53:07
  anybody,
• 53:07
  you
• 53:07
  go
• 53:08
  there,
• 53:08
  people
• 53:08
  are
• 53:08
  shooting
• 53:09
  or
• 53:09
  whatever.
• 53:10
  You
• 53:10
  buy
• 53:10
  this
• 53:10
  or
• 53:10
  that.
• 53:11
  This
• 53:11
  is
• 53:11
  where
• 53:12
  historically,
• 53:12
  the
• 53:13
  charlatans
• 53:13
  were
• 53:13
  there,
• 53:14
  they
• 53:14
  were
• 53:14
  selling
• 53:14
  products.
• 53:15
  Alchemy,
• 53:16
  Dr.
• 53:16
  Faustus
• 53:17
  is
• 53:17
  located
• 53:17
  to
• 53:18
  the
• 53:18
  fair.
• 53:18
  And
• 53:18
  alchemy
• 53:19
  and
• 53:20
  elixir,
• 53:20
  you
• 53:21
  get
• 53:21
  eternal
• 53:22
  life
• 53:22
  if
• 53:22
  you
• 53:22
  buy
• 53:22
  it.
• 53:23
  So
• 53:23
  the
• 53:23
  difference
• 53:23
  is,
• 53:24
  in
• 53:24
  a
• 53:24
  market,
• 53:24
  you
• 53:25
  know
• 53:25
  the
• 53:25
  seller
• 53:25
  and
• 53:25
  you
• 53:26
  know
• 53:26
  the
• 53:26
  quality
• 53:26
  of
• 53:26
  the
• 53:26
  product.
• 53:28
  In
• 53:28
  a
• 53:28
  fair,
• 53:29
  strangers
• 53:29
  come
• 53:29
  to
• 53:30
  town
• 53:30
  and
• 53:30
  claim
• 53:30
  that
• 53:31
  they
• 53:31
  have
• 53:31
  super
• 53:31
  products.
• 53:32
  And
• 53:32
  they
• 53:32
  create
• 53:33
  an
• 53:33
  atmosphere
• 53:34
  of
• 53:34
  irrationality
• 53:35
  where
• 53:36
  everything
• 53:36
  is
• 53:36
  possible.
• 53:37
  Yes.
• 53:37
  And
• 53:37
  then
• 53:37
  it
• 53:38
  goes
• 53:38
  into.
• 53:38
  It's
• 53:38
  all
• 53:39
  about
• 53:39
  advertisement,
• 53:40
  it's
• 53:40
  about
• 53:40
  pamphlets
• 53:41
  connected
• 53:41
  to
• 53:42
  the
• 53:42
  rise
• 53:42
  of
• 53:42
  the
• 53:42
  printing
• 53:43
  press,
• 53:43
  connected
• 53:43
  with
• 53:43
  mimes.
• 53:44
  The
• 53:44
  origin
• 53:44
  of
• 53:45
  the
• 53:45
  theater
• 53:45
  is
• 53:46
  charlatans
• 53:46
  who
• 53:46
  were
• 53:47
  organizing
• 53:48
  the
• 53:48
  mimes
• 53:48
  first
• 53:49
  to
• 53:49
  advertise
• 53:50
  the
• 53:50
  in
• 53:51
  products
• 53:51
  and
• 53:51
  then
• 53:52
  became
• 53:52
  the
• 53:52
  first
• 53:52
  theater
• 53:53
  company,
• 53:53
  Comedia
• 53:54
  Delfta.
• 53:54
  When
• 53:54
  is
• 53:55
  it
• 53:56
  all
• 53:56
  makes
• 53:56
  sense.
• 53:56
  It
• 53:56
  is
• 53:57
  all
• 53:57
  connected.
• 53:57
  It's
• 53:58
  fascinating.
• 53:59
  And
• 53:59
  the
• 53:59
  fare
• 53:59
  is
• 53:59
  becoming
• 54:00
  longer
• 54:00
  and
• 54:00
  longer
• 54:01
  and
• 54:01
  more
• 54:01
  and
• 54:01
  more
• 54:02
  permanent.
• 54:02
  And
• 54:03
  then
• 54:03
  what
• 54:03
  comes
• 54:04
  into
• 54:04
  it?
• 54:05
  We
• 54:05
  arrive
• 54:06
  at
• 54:06
  the
• 54:06
  stock
• 54:06
  market
• 54:07
  and
• 54:07
  here
• 54:08
  we
• 54:08
  are
• 54:08
  at
• 54:08
  the
• 54:08
  origin
• 54:09
  of
• 54:09
  capitalism.
• 54:10
  It's
• 54:10
  a
• 54:10
  stock
• 54:11
  market.
• 54:11
  It's
• 54:11
  not
• 54:11
  markets,
• 54:12
  it's
• 54:12
  a
• 54:13
  stock
• 54:13
  market.
• 54:14
  And
• 54:14
  the
• 54:14
  stock
• 54:15
  market
• 54:16
  is
• 54:16
  an
• 54:16
  embodiment
• 54:17
  of
• 54:17
  what
• 54:17
  you
• 54:18
  call
• 54:18
  permanent
• 54:19
  carnival
• 54:20
  or
• 54:20
  permanent
• 54:20
  liminality.
• 54:21
  It
• 54:21
  means
• 54:22
  it's
• 54:22
  an
• 54:22
  eternal
• 54:23
  fare
• 54:23
  that
• 54:24
  is
• 54:24
  designed
• 54:24
  to
• 54:24
  make
• 54:25
  irrational
• 54:25
  decisions.
• 54:26
  It's
• 54:27
  something
• 54:27
  like
• 54:27
  that.
• 54:27
  And
• 54:27
  of
• 54:27
  course,
• 54:27
  we
• 54:28
  all
• 54:28
  know
• 54:28
  that
• 54:28
  because
• 54:29
  going
• 54:29
  up
• 54:29
  and
• 54:29
  down,
• 54:30
  what
• 54:30
  you
• 54:30
  buy,
• 54:30
  what
• 54:31
  you
• 54:31
  don't
• 54:31
  buy.
• 54:31
  And
• 54:32
  even
• 54:32
  economists
• 54:33
  know
• 54:33
  that
• 54:33
  because,
• 54:33
  for
• 54:34
  example,
• 54:34
  Paul
• 54:34
  Samuelson,
• 54:35
  who
• 54:35
  is
• 54:35
  one
• 54:35
  of
• 54:35
  the
• 54:36
  most
• 54:36
  famous
• 54:36
  economists,
• 54:37
  wrote
• 54:37
  in
• 54:38
  the
• 54:38
  late
• 54:38
  1940s
• 54:39
  an
• 54:39
  article,
• 54:39
  and
• 54:40
  that
• 54:40
  was
• 54:40
  before
• 54:40
  he
• 54:40
  got
• 54:41
  the
• 54:41
  Nobel
• 54:41
  Prize.
• 54:41
  And
• 54:42
  he
• 54:42
  was
• 54:42
  saying
• 54:42
  that,
• 54:42
  I
• 54:43
  mean,
• 54:43
  we
• 54:43
  are
• 54:43
  talking
• 54:44
  about
• 54:45
  the
• 54:45
  marginal
• 54:45
  efficiency
• 54:46
  of
• 54:46
  capital
• 54:46
  and
• 54:47
  all
• 54:47
  these
• 54:47
  kind
• 54:48
  of
• 54:48
  things
• 54:48
  and
• 54:48
  justifying
• 54:49
  that
• 54:49
  it
• 54:50
  is.
• 54:50
  But
• 54:50
  how
• 54:51
  can
• 54:51
  you
• 54:51
  justify
• 54:51
  somebody
• 54:52
  making
• 54:52
  1
• 54:53
  10,
• 54:54
  100,000
• 54:54
  million
• 54:55
  just
• 54:56
  because
• 54:56
  he's
• 54:56
  selling
• 54:57
  two
• 54:57
  minutes
• 54:57
  earlier
• 54:57
  than
• 54:58
  the
• 54:58
  other?
• 54:58
  So
• 54:58
  there
• 54:58
  is
• 54:59
  no
• 54:59
  justification
• 55:00
  really
• 55:01
  in
• 55:01
  ethical
• 55:02
  terms
• 55:02
  on
• 55:02
  that.
• 55:03
  It's
• 55:03
  just
• 55:03
  going
• 55:03
  up
• 55:03
  and
• 55:04
  down.
• 55:04
  And
• 55:04
  then
• 55:05
  you
• 55:05
  could
• 55:06
  also
• 55:06
  say
• 55:06
  it's
• 55:06
  a
• 55:06
  perverted
• 55:07
  market.
• 55:08
  I
• 55:08
  mean,
• 55:08
  to
• 55:08
  be
• 55:08
  a
• 55:09
  bit
• 55:09
  more.
• 55:09
  Explicit
• 55:10
  in
• 55:10
  terms
• 55:11
  of
• 55:11
  when
• 55:11
  we
• 55:11
  talk
• 55:12
  about
• 55:12
  market
• 55:12
  in
• 55:13
  the
• 55:13
  classical
• 55:13
  sense,
• 55:14
  it
• 55:14
  is,
• 55:14
  and
• 55:14
  it's
• 55:15
  getting
• 55:15
  more
• 55:15
  and
• 55:15
  more,
• 55:16
  if
• 55:16
  you
• 55:17
  want
• 55:17
  perverted,
• 55:18
  more
• 55:18
  and
• 55:18
  more
• 55:20
  interconnected
• 55:21
  artificially.
• 55:22
  And
• 55:22
  more
• 55:22
  and
• 55:22
  more
• 55:22
  we
• 55:23
  are
• 55:23
  moved
• 55:23
  by
• 55:24
  how
• 55:24
  the
• 55:24
  stock
• 55:24
  market
• 55:25
  that
• 55:25
  is
• 55:25
  moving.
• 55:26
  But
• 55:26
  Arpad,
• 55:27
  if
• 55:27
  that
• 55:27
  is
• 55:27
  true
• 55:28
  what
• 55:28
  you
• 55:28
  say,
• 55:28
  and
• 55:28
  I
• 55:28
  think
• 55:28
  it's
• 55:29
  fascinating,
• 55:29
  it's
• 55:29
  also
• 55:30
  plausible,
• 55:30
  if
• 55:30
  you
• 55:30
  look
• 55:30
  at
• 55:31
  the
• 55:31
  London
• 55:32
  Stock
• 55:32
  Exchange
• 55:32
  or
• 55:32
  the
• 55:33
  Wall
• 55:33
  street,
• 55:33
  it
• 55:34
  really
• 55:34
  looks
• 55:34
  much
• 55:34
  more
• 55:35
  like
• 55:35
  a
• 55:35
  fair
• 55:35
  than
• 55:36
  like
• 55:36
  a
• 55:36
  market
• 55:36
  nowadays.
• 55:37
  But
• 55:37
  our
• 55:38
  models
• 55:39
  and
• 55:39
  our
• 55:40
  theories
• 55:40
  to
• 55:41
  address
• 55:42
  that
• 55:42
  event
• 55:43
  are
• 55:43
  theories
• 55:44
  of
• 55:44
  rational
• 55:45
  choice.
• 55:45
  And
• 55:45
  one
• 55:46
  could
• 55:46
  have
• 55:46
  the
• 55:46
  idea
• 55:47
  it's
• 55:47
  a
• 55:47
  radical
• 55:47
  misinterpretation
• 55:48
  of
• 55:49
  what's
• 55:49
  actually
• 55:49
  going
• 55:50
  on.
• 55:50
  Yes,
• 55:51
  well,
• 55:51
  this
• 55:52
  is
• 55:52
  very
• 55:52
  interesting
• 55:52
  because
• 55:53
  when
• 55:53
  I
• 55:53
  was
• 55:53
  studying
• 55:53
  in
• 55:54
  Texas
• 55:54
  economics,
• 55:55
  that's
• 55:56
  when
• 55:56
  rat
• 55:57
  Rational
• 55:57
  Expectations
• 55:58
  theory
• 55:58
  came
• 55:58
  out
• 56:00
  in
• 56:00
  contrast
• 56:00
  to
• 56:00
  Keynesian
• 56:01
  theory.
• 56:01
  Now,
• 56:02
  this
• 56:02
  is
• 56:02
  not
• 56:02
  the
• 56:02
  time
• 56:02
  to
• 56:02
  make
• 56:03
  a
• 56:03
  lecture
• 56:03
  on
• 56:03
  economics,
• 56:04
  but
• 56:04
  just
• 56:04
  the
• 56:04
  important
• 56:04
  point
• 56:05
  about
• 56:05
  that
• 56:05
  Rational
• 56:05
  expectations
• 56:06
  theory,
• 56:07
  which
• 56:07
  is
• 56:07
  the
• 56:07
  origin
• 56:08
  of
• 56:08
  rational
• 56:08
  choice
• 56:08
  theory,
• 56:09
  says
• 56:09
  that
• 56:10
  the
• 56:10
  government
• 56:10
  is
• 56:11
  inefficient
• 56:11
  in
• 56:12
  any
• 56:12
  kind
• 56:12
  of
• 56:12
  economic
• 56:13
  policy
• 56:14
  because
• 56:14
  people
• 56:14
  have
• 56:15
  the
• 56:15
  same
• 56:15
  information
• 56:15
  as
• 56:16
  the
• 56:16
  government
• 56:16
  as
• 56:16
  they
• 56:16
  are
• 56:17
  rational
• 56:17
  consumers.
• 56:18
  Now,
• 56:18
  this
• 56:18
  is
• 56:19
  a
• 56:19
  kind
• 56:19
  of
• 56:19
  nonsense,
• 56:20
  sort
• 56:20
  of
• 56:20
  codified,
• 56:21
  and
• 56:21
  these
• 56:21
  people
• 56:22
  got
• 56:22
  a
• 56:23
  bunch
• 56:23
  of
• 56:23
  Nobel
• 56:23
  Prizes.
• 56:25
  When
• 56:25
  you
• 56:26
  have
• 56:26
  your
• 56:26
  theory
• 56:26
  that
• 56:27
  the
• 56:27
  market
• 56:27
  is
• 56:28
  based
• 56:28
  on
• 56:28
  conventional
• 56:29
  information,
• 56:30
  and
• 56:30
  then
• 56:30
  your
• 56:30
  theory
• 56:31
  then
• 56:31
  guides
• 56:32
  your
• 56:32
  ideas
• 56:33
  instead
• 56:33
  of
• 56:33
  looking
• 56:33
  at
• 56:33
  that.
• 56:34
  And
• 56:34
  you
• 56:34
  know,
• 56:34
  how
• 56:34
  can
• 56:34
  somebody
• 56:35
  say
• 56:35
  that
• 56:35
  we
• 56:35
  have
• 56:36
  the
• 56:36
  same
• 56:36
  information
• 56:37
  as
• 56:37
  the
• 56:37
  government
• 56:38
  we
• 56:38
  don't
• 56:38
  have.
• 56:39
  So
• 56:39
  the
• 56:40
  thing.
• 56:41
  And
• 56:41
  my
• 56:42
  economist
• 56:42
  professors
• 56:43
  who
• 56:43
  were
• 56:43
  Keynesian
• 56:44
  at
• 56:44
  that
• 56:44
  time
• 56:45
  said
• 56:45
  the
• 56:45
  same
• 56:46
  thing,
• 56:46
  but
• 56:46
  they
• 56:46
  lost.
• 56:48
  I
• 56:48
  think
• 56:49
  we
• 56:49
  have
• 56:49
  established
• 56:50
  by
• 56:50
  now
• 56:50
  something
• 56:51
  that
• 56:51
  is
• 56:51
  true
• 56:51
  of
• 56:52
  every
• 56:52
  true
• 56:52
  thinker,
• 56:53
  that
• 56:53
  you
• 56:53
  are
• 56:53
  a
• 56:53
  radical
• 56:54
  guy
• 56:54
  because
• 56:55
  you
• 56:55
  are
• 56:55
  radically
• 56:56
  questioning
• 56:56
  the
• 56:56
  logics
• 56:57
  of
• 56:57
  our
• 56:57
  society
• 56:58
  as
• 56:58
  it
• 56:58
  exists.
• 56:59
  And,
• 56:59
  and
• 56:59
  you
• 56:59
  would
• 56:59
  like
• 57:00
  them
• 57:00
  to
• 57:00
  see
• 57:01
  changed.
• 57:01
  Changed
• 57:02
  how?
• 57:03
  Yeah,
• 57:03
  I
• 57:03
  agree
• 57:03
  with
• 57:04
  that,
• 57:04
  except
• 57:04
  that
• 57:04
  I'm
• 57:05
  also
• 57:05
  radically
• 57:05
  conservative
• 57:06
  in
• 57:06
  that
• 57:06
  sense.
• 57:07
  Because
• 57:07
  I'm
• 57:07
  radical.
• 57:07
  It's
• 57:08
  a
• 57:08
  form
• 57:08
  of
• 57:08
  radicalism.
• 57:08
  It's
• 57:09
  a
• 57:09
  form
• 57:09
  of
• 57:09
  radicalism
• 57:09
  in
• 57:10
  the
• 57:10
  sense
• 57:10
  that
• 57:10
  we
• 57:10
  have
• 57:10
  to
• 57:11
  go
• 57:11
  back
• 57:11
  to
• 57:11
  the
• 57:11
  roots
• 57:12
  insofar
• 57:12
  as
• 57:12
  they
• 57:13
  are
• 57:13
  meaningful.
• 57:13
  And
• 57:13
  that's
• 57:13
  what
• 57:13
  radical
• 57:14
  means.
• 57:14
  Radix.
• 57:16
  So
• 57:17
  back
• 57:17
  to
• 57:18
  the
• 57:18
  roots.
• 57:18
  It
• 57:19
  sounds
• 57:19
  like
• 57:20
  something
• 57:20
  that
• 57:21
  cannot
• 57:21
  be
• 57:21
  done
• 57:22
  because
• 57:22
  we're
• 57:23
  moving
• 57:23
  forward
• 57:23
  in
• 57:24
  time
• 57:24
  and
• 57:24
  not
• 57:24
  backward.
• 57:25
  Yes.
• 57:26
  What
• 57:26
  is
• 57:27
  for
• 57:27
  you?
• 57:28
  The
• 57:28
  beginning
• 57:30
  of
• 57:30
  healing
• 57:30
  this
• 57:31
  culture
• 57:31
  and
• 57:31
  make
• 57:31
  it
• 57:32
  more
• 57:32
  reasonable.
• 57:33
  When
• 57:33
  we
• 57:34
  have
• 57:34
  to
• 57:34
  start
• 57:34
  from
• 57:34
  now
• 57:35
  and
• 57:35
  not
• 57:35
  looking
• 57:35
  back,
• 57:36
  but
• 57:36
  looking
• 57:36
  forward.
• 57:37
  We
• 57:37
  have
• 57:38
  to
• 57:38
  do
• 57:38
  both
• 57:38
  at
• 57:38
  the
• 57:38
  same
• 57:39
  time.
• 57:39
  That
• 57:39
  is
• 57:39
  very
• 57:39
  important
• 57:40
  because
• 57:40
  again,
• 57:40
  I
• 57:40
  go
• 57:40
  back
• 57:41
  to
• 57:41
  walking
• 57:42
  and
• 57:42
  pilgrimage
• 57:43
  because
• 57:43
  when
• 57:43
  we
• 57:44
  were
• 57:44
  walking,
• 57:44
  we
• 57:45
  often
• 57:46
  lost
• 57:46
  the
• 57:46
  road.
• 57:47
  And
• 57:47
  then
• 57:47
  what
• 57:48
  we
• 57:48
  realized
• 57:48
  that
• 57:49
  if
• 57:49
  somebody
• 57:49
  is
• 57:50
  losing
• 57:50
  the
• 57:50
  road
• 57:50
  when
• 57:51
  working,
• 57:51
  you
• 57:51
  have
• 57:52
  to
• 57:52
  go
• 57:52
  back
• 57:52
  when
• 57:52
  you
• 57:53
  missed
• 57:53
  the
• 57:53
  road.
• 57:54
  You
• 57:54
  cannot
• 57:54
  just
• 57:54
  make
• 57:55
  a
• 57:55
  shortcut
• 57:55
  because
• 57:55
  you
• 57:56
  can
• 57:56
  get
• 57:56
  even
• 57:56
  more.
• 57:56
  More
• 57:57
  confused
• 57:58
  and
• 57:58
  lost.
• 57:59
  But
• 57:59
  if
• 58:00
  you're
• 58:00
  in
• 58:00
  a
• 58:00
  maze
• 58:01
  and
• 58:01
  you
• 58:01
  go
• 58:01
  back
• 58:01
  all
• 58:01
  of
• 58:02
  the
• 58:02
  time,
• 58:02
  you're
• 58:02
  running
• 58:02
  in
• 58:03
  circles.
• 58:04
  You
• 58:05
  have
• 58:05
  to
• 58:05
  leave
• 58:05
  the
• 58:05
  maze
• 58:06
  then.
• 58:09
  But
• 58:09
  anyway,
• 58:09
  so
• 58:10
  I
• 58:10
  agree
• 58:10
  with
• 58:10
  you.
• 58:11
  And
• 58:11
  the
• 58:11
  point
• 58:11
  is
• 58:11
  not
• 58:12
  to
• 58:12
  go
• 58:12
  back
• 58:12
  in
• 58:12
  time
• 58:13
  in
• 58:13
  the
• 58:13
  sense
• 58:13
  that
• 58:13
  we
• 58:13
  have
• 58:14
  to
• 58:14
  go
• 58:14
  back
• 58:14
  to
• 58:14
  the
• 58:14
  16th
• 58:15
  century
• 58:15
  or
• 58:15
  the
• 58:16
  14th
• 58:16
  or
• 58:16
  whatever.
• 58:17
  That
• 58:17
  is
• 58:17
  impossible.
• 58:18
  But
• 58:19
  it's
• 58:19
  interesting
• 58:20
  that
• 58:20
  being
• 58:20
  here
• 58:21
  and
• 58:21
  the
• 58:22
  origins
• 58:22
  of
• 58:22
  the
• 58:22
  Reformation.
• 58:22
  So
• 58:23
  the
• 58:23
  Reformation
• 58:23
  wanted
• 58:24
  to
• 58:24
  go
• 58:24
  back,
• 58:24
  to
• 58:24
  go
• 58:24
  back
• 58:24
  to
• 58:25
  the
• 58:25
  evangelical
• 58:25
  race,
• 58:26
  and
• 58:26
  they
• 58:26
  didn't
• 58:26
  really
• 58:27
  succeed,
• 58:27
  to
• 58:27
  put
• 58:27
  it
• 58:28
  mildly.
• 58:29
  And
• 58:29
  so
• 58:29
  we
• 58:29
  have
• 58:29
  to
• 58:30
  look
• 58:30
  forward,
• 58:31
  but
• 58:31
  also
• 58:31
  in
• 58:31
  a
• 58:32
  certain
• 58:32
  way
• 58:33
  going
• 58:33
  back.
• 58:33
  And
• 58:34
  we
• 58:34
  should
• 58:34
  try
• 58:34
  to
• 58:35
  find
• 58:35
  what
• 58:36
  can
• 58:36
  be
• 58:36
  meaningfully
• 58:38
  recovered
• 58:39
  or
• 58:39
  preserved
• 58:40
  in
• 58:40
  this
• 58:41
  world
• 58:41
  in
• 58:41
  which
• 58:42
  we
• 58:42
  are
• 58:42
  living.
• 58:42
  And
• 58:43
  we
• 58:43
  have
• 58:43
  to
• 58:44
  take
• 58:45
  many
• 58:45
  of
• 58:46
  these
• 58:46
  concepts,
• 58:47
  like
• 58:47
  nature,
• 58:48
  like
• 58:48
  freedom,
• 58:50
  like
• 58:50
  carries,
• 58:51
  like
• 58:53
  daily
• 58:54
  interaction
• 58:55
  of
• 58:55
  real
• 58:55
  people.
• 58:55
  And
• 58:56
  not
• 58:56
  letting
• 58:56
  something
• 58:57
  to
• 58:57
  be
• 58:57
  done
• 58:58
  by
• 58:58
  artificial
• 58:58
  intelligence,
• 58:59
  for
• 58:59
  example.
• 59:00
  For
• 59:00
  me,
• 59:00
  if
• 59:01
  something
• 59:01
  can
• 59:02
  be
• 59:02
  done
• 59:02
  efficiently
• 59:03
  by
• 59:03
  artificial
• 59:03
  intelligence,
• 59:05
  it
• 59:05
  means
• 59:05
  that
• 59:05
  there's
• 59:05
  something
• 59:06
  wrong
• 59:06
  with
• 59:06
  it
• 59:07
  because
• 59:07
  you.
• 59:07
  Don'T
• 59:07
  have
• 59:07
  to
• 59:08
  think
• 59:08
  to
• 59:08
  solve
• 59:08
  the
• 59:08
  problem.
• 59:09
  Yeah.
• 59:09
  And
• 59:09
  it's
• 59:10
  not
• 59:10
  just
• 59:10
  the
• 59:10
  thinking,
• 59:10
  but
• 59:11
  you
• 59:11
  don't
• 59:11
  have
• 59:11
  to
• 59:11
  feel.
• 59:12
  I
• 59:12
  mean,
• 59:12
  imagine
• 59:13
  anything
• 59:14
  in
• 59:14
  our
• 59:14
  life
• 59:14
  which
• 59:15
  is
• 59:15
  meaningful
• 59:16
  links
• 59:16
  to
• 59:17
  our
• 59:18
  children
• 59:18
  and
• 59:18
  our
• 59:19
  friends.
• 59:19
  Artificial
• 59:20
  intelligence
• 59:20
  doesn't
• 59:20
  do
• 59:20
  anything
• 59:21
  with
• 59:21
  that
• 59:21
  cannot.
• 59:22
  So
• 59:22
  one
• 59:22
  critique
• 59:23
  of
• 59:23
  artificial
• 59:24
  intelligence
• 59:24
  for
• 59:24
  you
• 59:25
  would
• 59:25
  be
• 59:25
  that
• 59:26
  it
• 59:26
  is
• 59:26
  problem
• 59:27
  solving
• 59:27
  without
• 59:28
  feelings.
• 59:29
  Absolutely.
• 59:30
  And
• 59:30
  you
• 59:30
  can
• 59:30
  even
• 59:31
  mimic
• 59:32
  feelings.
• 59:33
  But
• 59:33
  it's
• 59:34
  the
• 59:34
  mimicking
• 59:34
  of
• 59:35
  feelings
• 59:35
  make
• 59:35
  ethnocenses
• 59:37
  mimicking
• 59:38
  reason,
• 59:38
  because
• 59:39
  it
• 59:39
  is
• 59:39
  just
• 59:40
  guided
• 59:40
  by
• 59:41
  the
• 59:41
  law
• 59:41
  of
• 59:41
  large
• 59:42
  numbers.
• 59:43
  My
• 59:43
  background
• 59:44
  is
• 59:44
  probability
• 59:44
  theory,
• 59:45
  so
• 59:45
  I
• 59:45
  know.
• 59:46
  And
• 59:46
  the
• 59:47
  law
• 59:47
  of
• 59:47
  large
• 59:47
  numbers,
• 59:48
  you
• 59:48
  know,
• 59:49
  it
• 59:49
  works,
• 59:50
  but
• 59:50
  it
• 59:50
  only
• 59:50
  works
• 59:51
  in
• 59:51
  a
• 59:51
  very
• 59:51
  particular
• 59:52
  kind
• 59:52
  of
• 59:52
  way
• 59:52
  which
• 59:53
  leads
• 59:53
  into
• 59:54
  dead
• 59:55
  end,
• 59:55
  street
• 59:55
  of
• 59:55
  a
• 59:55
  maze.
• 59:58
  Trying
• 59:59
  to
• 59:59
  leave
• 59:59
  the
• 59:59
  maze
• 1:00:00
  to
• 1:00:00
  find
• 1:00:00
  the
• 1:00:00
  Ausgang,
• 1:00:01
  the
• 1:00:01
  exit.
• 1:00:02
  That's
• 1:00:02
  what
• 1:00:02
  Kant
• 1:00:03
  said
• 1:00:03
  philosophy
• 1:00:04
  should
• 1:00:04
  do,
• 1:00:04
  what
• 1:00:04
  enlightenment
• 1:00:05
  should
• 1:00:05
  do.
• 1:00:06
  Maybe
• 1:00:07
  we
• 1:00:07
  start
• 1:00:07
  with
• 1:00:07
  feelings.
• 1:00:08
  And
• 1:00:08
  a
• 1:00:08
  personal
• 1:00:08
  question
• 1:00:09
  to
• 1:00:09
  you.
• 1:00:10
  When
• 1:00:10
  do
• 1:00:10
  you
• 1:00:11
  feel
• 1:00:11
  free,
• 1:00:12
  experience
• 1:00:13
  yourself
• 1:00:13
  as
• 1:00:13
  a
• 1:00:13
  free
• 1:00:14
  human
• 1:00:14
  being?
• 1:00:15
  That's
• 1:00:15
  a
• 1:00:16
  very
• 1:00:16
  good
• 1:00:16
  question
• 1:00:16
  again.
• 1:00:17
  And
• 1:00:18
  it
• 1:00:18
  leads
• 1:00:18
  into
• 1:00:19
  a
• 1:00:19
  central
• 1:00:20
  term
• 1:00:21
  of
• 1:00:21
  my
• 1:00:22
  thinking,
• 1:00:22
  which
• 1:00:22
  is
• 1:00:23
  the
• 1:00:23
  heart.
• 1:00:24
  And
• 1:00:24
  the
• 1:00:24
  heart,
• 1:00:24
  I
• 1:00:25
  mean,
• 1:00:25
  for
• 1:00:25
  example,
• 1:00:25
  in
• 1:00:25
  the
• 1:00:26
  sense
• 1:00:26
  of
• 1:00:26
  Pascal.
• 1:00:27
  And
• 1:00:27
  in
• 1:00:27
  Pascal
• 1:00:28
  you
• 1:00:29
  mean
• 1:00:29
  Lys
• 1:00:29
  Pascal,
• 1:00:30
  a
• 1:00:30
  contemporary
• 1:00:30
  of
• 1:00:31
  Descartes
• 1:00:31
  and
• 1:00:31
  a
• 1:00:32
  great
• 1:00:32
  philosopher.
• 1:00:32
  And
• 1:00:33
  by
• 1:00:33
  the
• 1:00:33
  way,
• 1:00:33
  Pascal
• 1:00:34
  said
• 1:00:35
  about
• 1:00:35
  Descartes,
• 1:00:36
  three
• 1:00:36
  words,
• 1:00:40
  useless
• 1:00:41
  and
• 1:00:41
  wrong,
• 1:00:41
  useless
• 1:00:42
  and
• 1:00:42
  uncertain,
• 1:00:43
  wrong.
• 1:00:43
  So
• 1:00:44
  don't
• 1:00:44
  worry
• 1:00:45
  about
• 1:00:45
  Descartes.
• 1:00:46
  And
• 1:00:46
  Pascal
• 1:00:46
  said
• 1:00:47
  the
• 1:00:47
  heart
• 1:00:48
  has
• 1:00:48
  its
• 1:00:48
  reasons
• 1:00:49
  which
• 1:00:50
  reason
• 1:00:50
  cannot
• 1:00:51
  understand.
• 1:00:51
  A
• 1:00:51
  reason.
• 1:00:51
  Reason
• 1:00:51
  at
• 1:00:52
  that
• 1:00:52
  time
• 1:00:52
  was
• 1:00:52
  already
• 1:00:52
  the
• 1:00:53
  courtesy
• 1:00:54
  and
• 1:00:54
  reason,
• 1:00:54
  so
• 1:00:54
  the
• 1:00:54
  reason
• 1:00:55
  of
• 1:00:55
  rationality.
• 1:00:56
  And
• 1:00:57
  so
• 1:00:57
  the
• 1:00:57
  reason
• 1:00:57
  means
• 1:00:58
  not
• 1:00:58
  simply
• 1:00:58
  emotion,
• 1:00:59
  but
• 1:01:00
  the
• 1:01:00
  reason
• 1:01:00
  means
• 1:01:00
  a
• 1:01:01
  kind
• 1:01:01
  of
• 1:01:01
  fundamental
• 1:01:03
  center
• 1:01:03
  of
• 1:01:03
  one's
• 1:01:04
  own
• 1:01:04
  existence
• 1:01:06
  which
• 1:01:07
  guides
• 1:01:07
  feelings
• 1:01:08
  and
• 1:01:08
  guides
• 1:01:08
  also
• 1:01:10
  one's
• 1:01:10
  mind.
• 1:01:11
  I
• 1:01:11
  think
• 1:01:11
  we
• 1:01:11
  should
• 1:01:12
  take
• 1:01:12
  that
• 1:01:13
  message
• 1:01:13
  to
• 1:01:13
  heart,
• 1:01:14
  as
• 1:01:14
  one
• 1:01:14
  says,
• 1:01:15
  to
• 1:01:15
  really
• 1:01:16
  embody
• 1:01:16
  it,
• 1:01:16
  to
• 1:01:17
  feel
• 1:01:17
  its
• 1:01:17
  power.
• 1:01:18
  I
• 1:01:18
  mean,
• 1:01:18
  I
• 1:01:19
  know
• 1:01:19
  that
• 1:01:19
  you
• 1:01:19
  recently
• 1:01:20
  got
• 1:01:20
  a
• 1:01:20
  dog
• 1:01:20
  that
• 1:01:21
  you're
• 1:01:21
  very
• 1:01:21
  fond
• 1:01:21
  of
• 1:01:21
  and
• 1:01:22
  the
• 1:01:22
  dog
• 1:01:22
  is
• 1:01:22
  with
• 1:01:22
  you
• 1:01:22
  here
• 1:01:22
  in
• 1:01:22
  St.
• 1:01:23
  Gallen.
• 1:01:23
  When
• 1:01:23
  I
• 1:01:24
  think
• 1:01:24
  of
• 1:01:24
  freedom,
• 1:01:25
  really,
• 1:01:25
  my
• 1:01:26
  image
• 1:01:26
  is
• 1:01:26
  that
• 1:01:26
  I
• 1:01:27
  see
• 1:01:27
  a
• 1:01:27
  dog
• 1:01:27
  without
• 1:01:28
  a
• 1:01:28
  leash
• 1:01:29
  running
• 1:01:29
  through
• 1:01:29
  a
• 1:01:30
  meadow
• 1:01:30
  and
• 1:01:30
  being
• 1:01:31
  extremely
• 1:01:31
  happy,
• 1:01:32
  of
• 1:01:32
  being
• 1:01:32
  free
• 1:01:33
  and
• 1:01:33
  roaming
• 1:01:34
  freely.
• 1:01:35
  And
• 1:01:35
  that
• 1:01:35
  would
• 1:01:35
  mean
• 1:01:35
  that
• 1:01:36
  also
• 1:01:36
  animals
• 1:01:37
  can
• 1:01:37
  be
• 1:01:37
  free
• 1:01:37
  and
• 1:01:38
  feel
• 1:01:38
  free.
• 1:01:39
  That's
• 1:01:39
  even
• 1:01:39
  more
• 1:01:40
  than
• 1:01:40
  that,
• 1:01:40
  because
• 1:01:41
  dogs
• 1:01:41
  do
• 1:01:41
  something
• 1:01:42
  which
• 1:01:42
  you
• 1:01:42
  certainly
• 1:01:43
  remember
• 1:01:43
  when
• 1:01:43
  they
• 1:01:44
  are
• 1:01:44
  free.
• 1:01:44
  That
• 1:01:44
  they
• 1:01:45
  start
• 1:01:45
  to
• 1:01:45
  be
• 1:01:46
  ecstatic
• 1:01:47
  means
• 1:01:47
  that
• 1:01:47
  they
• 1:01:47
  are
• 1:01:47
  not
• 1:01:48
  just
• 1:01:48
  running
• 1:01:48
  after
• 1:01:49
  a
• 1:01:49
  fox
• 1:01:50
  or
• 1:01:50
  something,
• 1:01:51
  they
• 1:01:51
  just
• 1:01:51
  run
• 1:01:52
  up
• 1:01:52
  and
• 1:01:52
  down
• 1:01:52
  as
• 1:01:53
  crazy.
• 1:01:53
  And
• 1:01:54
  this
• 1:01:55
  is
• 1:01:55
  what.
• 1:01:55
  What
• 1:01:56
  ecstasy
• 1:01:57
  means
• 1:01:57
  and
• 1:01:57
  which
• 1:01:57
  is
• 1:01:58
  a
• 1:01:58
  kind
• 1:01:58
  of
• 1:01:58
  excess
• 1:01:59
  of
• 1:01:59
  freedom.
• 1:02:00
  And
• 1:02:00
  of
• 1:02:00
  course,
• 1:02:00
  not
• 1:02:00
  everything
• 1:02:01
  in
• 1:02:01
  the
• 1:02:01
  name
• 1:02:01
  of
• 1:02:01
  ecstasy
• 1:02:03
  is
• 1:02:04
  really
• 1:02:04
  freedom.
• 1:02:04
  I
• 1:02:05
  think
• 1:02:05
  we
• 1:02:05
  can
• 1:02:05
  close
• 1:02:05
  the
• 1:02:06
  circle
• 1:02:06
  now,
• 1:02:06
  because
• 1:02:06
  that
• 1:02:07
  ecstasy
• 1:02:07
  is
• 1:02:07
  a
• 1:02:08
  good
• 1:02:08
  ecstasy.
• 1:02:08
  It's
• 1:02:09
  the
• 1:02:09
  ecstasy
• 1:02:09
  of
• 1:02:09
  freedom.
• 1:02:10
  But
• 1:02:10
  it's
• 1:02:10
  not
• 1:02:10
  an
• 1:02:11
  internal
• 1:02:11
  carnival.
• 1:02:12
  It
• 1:02:12
  happens
• 1:02:13
  only
• 1:02:14
  in
• 1:02:14
  certain
• 1:02:15
  times,
• 1:02:15
  at
• 1:02:15
  certain
• 1:02:16
  times,
• 1:02:16
  in
• 1:02:16
  certain
• 1:02:16
  periods.
• 1:02:17
  And
• 1:02:17
  then
• 1:02:17
  you
• 1:02:18
  have
• 1:02:18
  to
• 1:02:18
  come
• 1:02:18
  back,
• 1:02:18
  as
• 1:02:18
  it
• 1:02:19
  were,
• 1:02:19
  to
• 1:02:19
  normality.
• 1:02:20
  Absolutely.
• 1:02:20
  That's
• 1:02:20
  again
• 1:02:21
  the
• 1:02:21
  point
• 1:02:21
  that
• 1:02:21
  all
• 1:02:21
  this
• 1:02:22
  sort
• 1:02:22
  of
• 1:02:23
  eternal,
• 1:02:23
  permanent
• 1:02:24
  carnival
• 1:02:24
  liminality,
• 1:02:25
  that
• 1:02:26
  we
• 1:02:26
  are
• 1:02:26
  living,
• 1:02:26
  it
• 1:02:27
  certainly
• 1:02:27
  this
• 1:02:28
  has
• 1:02:28
  to
• 1:02:28
  stop.
• 1:02:28
  And
• 1:02:29
  we
• 1:02:29
  can
• 1:02:29
  see
• 1:02:30
  it
• 1:02:30
  really
• 1:02:31
  everywhere,
• 1:02:31
  all
• 1:02:32
  this
• 1:02:32
  sort
• 1:02:32
  of
• 1:02:32
  limitless
• 1:02:33
  expansion
• 1:02:33
  of
• 1:02:34
  a
• 1:02:34
  certain
• 1:02:34
  kind
• 1:02:34
  of
• 1:02:35
  way
• 1:02:35
  of
• 1:02:35
  life,
• 1:02:36
  everywhere
• 1:02:37
  is
• 1:02:37
  increasingly
• 1:02:38
  meaningless
• 1:02:39
  because
• 1:02:40
  you
• 1:02:40
  cannot
• 1:02:41
  live
• 1:02:42
  all
• 1:02:42
  the
• 1:02:42
  time
• 1:02:42
  in
• 1:02:43
  a
• 1:02:43
  particular
• 1:02:43
  state
• 1:02:44
  of
• 1:02:44
  excitation.
• 1:02:46
  And
• 1:02:46
  what
• 1:02:46
  about
• 1:02:47
  thinking?
• 1:02:48
  Do
• 1:02:48
  you
• 1:02:48
  feel
• 1:02:48
  free
• 1:02:49
  when
• 1:02:49
  you.
• 1:02:49
  You
• 1:02:49
  think
• 1:02:50
  because
• 1:02:50
  you
• 1:02:50
  are
• 1:02:51
  a
• 1:02:51
  Thinker.
• 1:02:51
  The
• 1:02:51
  interesting
• 1:02:52
  thing
• 1:02:52
  here
• 1:02:52
  is
• 1:02:53
  that
• 1:02:53
  thinking
• 1:02:54
  has
• 1:02:54
  a
• 1:02:54
  certain
• 1:02:55
  similarities
• 1:02:56
  to
• 1:02:56
  dreaming
• 1:02:58
  in
• 1:02:58
  the
• 1:02:58
  sense
• 1:02:59
  that
• 1:03:00
  when
• 1:03:00
  we
• 1:03:00
  think
• 1:03:04
  who
• 1:03:04
  really
• 1:03:04
  does
• 1:03:04
  the
• 1:03:04
  thing
• 1:03:05
  or
• 1:03:05
  what
• 1:03:05
  does
• 1:03:05
  it
• 1:03:05
  mean
• 1:03:06
  that
• 1:03:06
  we
• 1:03:06
  think?
• 1:03:07
  Neurophysiologists
• 1:03:08
  and
• 1:03:09
  whatever
• 1:03:09
  try
• 1:03:09
  to
• 1:03:09
  claim
• 1:03:10
  that
• 1:03:10
  certain
• 1:03:10
  neurons
• 1:03:11
  in
• 1:03:11
  our
• 1:03:11
  mind.
• 1:03:13
  I
• 1:03:13
  think
• 1:03:13
  that's
• 1:03:13
  the
• 1:03:13
  other
• 1:03:14
  way
• 1:03:14
  around.
• 1:03:14
  But
• 1:03:16
  we
• 1:03:16
  don't
• 1:03:16
  know
• 1:03:16
  how
• 1:03:17
  we
• 1:03:17
  think.
• 1:03:18
  And
• 1:03:18
  for
• 1:03:18
  example,
• 1:03:18
  walking
• 1:03:19
  is
• 1:03:19
  very
• 1:03:19
  important
• 1:03:20
  for
• 1:03:20
  thinking.
• 1:03:21
  But
• 1:03:21
  that's
• 1:03:21
  when
• 1:03:22
  we
• 1:03:22
  are
• 1:03:22
  free,
• 1:03:23
  when
• 1:03:23
  we
• 1:03:24
  work.
• 1:03:24
  And
• 1:03:24
  whenever
• 1:03:24
  I
• 1:03:25
  have
• 1:03:25
  a
• 1:03:25
  problem
• 1:03:26
  in
• 1:03:26
  continuing,
• 1:03:27
  I
• 1:03:27
  always
• 1:03:28
  walk
• 1:03:28
  out
• 1:03:28
  of
• 1:03:28
  my
• 1:03:28
  office
• 1:03:29
  and
• 1:03:29
  start
• 1:03:30
  working,
• 1:03:30
  which
• 1:03:30
  in
• 1:03:30
  a
• 1:03:30
  certain
• 1:03:31
  HR
• 1:03:31
  logic
• 1:03:32
  is
• 1:03:32
  illegal.
• 1:03:33
  Luckily
• 1:03:34
  I'm
• 1:03:34
  not
• 1:03:34
  under
• 1:03:34
  that.
• 1:03:35
  Why
• 1:03:35
  do
• 1:03:35
  you
• 1:03:35
  leave
• 1:03:36
  your
• 1:03:36
  office?
• 1:03:36
  That
• 1:03:37
  shows
• 1:03:37
  how
• 1:03:37
  this
• 1:03:38
  is
• 1:03:38
  nonsensical.
• 1:03:39
  So
• 1:03:39
  let
• 1:03:39
  the
• 1:03:39
  thoughts
• 1:03:40
  and
• 1:03:40
  the
• 1:03:40
  people
• 1:03:41
  roam
• 1:03:41
  freely
• 1:03:43
  to
• 1:03:43
  the
• 1:03:43
  face
• 1:03:43
  of
• 1:03:44
  the
• 1:03:44
  earth
• 1:03:45
  to
• 1:03:45
  make
• 1:03:45
  them
• 1:03:45
  think.
• 1:03:46
  Well,
• 1:03:47
  let's
• 1:03:47
  work
• 1:03:47
  and
• 1:03:48
  roam
• 1:03:49
  freely.
• 1:03:50
  It's
• 1:03:51
  too
• 1:03:51
  much
• 1:03:51
  already.
• 1:03:51
  It's
• 1:03:51
  a
• 1:03:52
  bit
• 1:03:52
  too
• 1:03:52
  much.
• 1:03:52
  But
• 1:03:52
  we
• 1:03:52
  should
• 1:03:53
  should
• 1:03:53
  certainly
• 1:03:53
  think.
• 1:03:53
  We
• 1:03:54
  should
• 1:03:54
  certainly
• 1:03:54
  work.
• 1:03:55
  And
• 1:03:55
  then
• 1:03:55
  again,
• 1:03:56
  when
• 1:03:56
  we
• 1:03:56
  think
• 1:03:57
  who
• 1:03:58
  is
• 1:03:59
  that?
• 1:03:59
  We
• 1:03:59
  think
• 1:03:59
  so
• 1:04:00
  it's
• 1:04:00
  what
• 1:04:00
  is
• 1:04:01
  origin
• 1:04:01
  of
• 1:04:01
  our
• 1:04:01
  ideas?
• 1:04:01
  Nobody
• 1:04:02
  knows
• 1:04:02
  that.
• 1:04:03
  Nobody
• 1:04:03
  knows
• 1:04:04
  that.
• 1:04:04
  But
• 1:04:05
  we
• 1:04:05
  can
• 1:04:05
  one
• 1:04:05
  thing,
• 1:04:06
  we
• 1:04:06
  can
• 1:04:07
  ask
• 1:04:07
  one
• 1:04:07
  thing
• 1:04:07
  that
• 1:04:07
  we
• 1:04:08
  should
• 1:04:08
  know.
• 1:04:08
  And
• 1:04:08
  that's
• 1:04:08
  the
• 1:04:09
  last
• 1:04:09
  question
• 1:04:09
  in
• 1:04:09
  this
• 1:04:10
  podcast
• 1:04:10
  always,
• 1:04:11
  which
• 1:04:11
  is
• 1:04:11
  called
• 1:04:11
  no
• 1:04:12
  mustard
• 1:04:12
  on
• 1:04:12
  a
• 1:04:12
  Sen.
• 1:04:13
  If
• 1:04:13
  you
• 1:04:13
  were,
• 1:04:14
  and
• 1:04:14
  I
• 1:04:14
  know
• 1:04:14
  you
• 1:04:15
  have,
• 1:04:16
  if
• 1:04:16
  you
• 1:04:16
  were
• 1:04:17
  to
• 1:04:17
  eat
• 1:04:18
  a
• 1:04:18
  sausage
• 1:04:19
  in
• 1:04:19
  St.
• 1:04:19
  Gallen,
• 1:04:19
  would
• 1:04:20
  you
• 1:04:20
  eat
• 1:04:20
  eat
• 1:04:20
  it
• 1:04:20
  with
• 1:04:21
  or
• 1:04:21
  without
• 1:04:22
  mustard?
• 1:04:23
  Well,
• 1:04:23
  I
• 1:04:24
  have
• 1:04:24
  a
• 1:04:24
  very
• 1:04:24
  simple
• 1:04:25
  answer
• 1:04:26
  to
• 1:04:26
  that.
• 1:04:26
  And
• 1:04:27
  I
• 1:04:27
  became
• 1:04:27
  allergic
• 1:04:28
  to
• 1:04:28
  mustard
• 1:04:28
  when
• 1:04:29
  I
• 1:04:29
  was
• 1:04:29
  in
• 1:04:29
  Texas.
• 1:04:30
  I
• 1:04:30
  don't
• 1:04:30
  know
• 1:04:30
  why.
• 1:04:30
  But
• 1:04:31
  since
• 1:04:31
  then
• 1:04:31
  I
• 1:04:31
  cannot
• 1:04:32
  eat
• 1:04:32
  mustard.
• 1:04:32
  So
• 1:04:32
  if
• 1:04:33
  I
• 1:04:33
  eat
• 1:04:33
  mustard
• 1:04:33
  for
• 1:04:34
  three
• 1:04:34
  days,
• 1:04:35
  my
• 1:04:35
  mouth
• 1:04:36
  is,
• 1:04:36
  as
• 1:04:37
  mole
• 1:04:37
  allergy
• 1:04:38
  does,
• 1:04:38
  insensitive.
• 1:04:39
  So
• 1:04:40
  I
• 1:04:40
  eat
• 1:04:40
  without
• 1:04:41
  mustard.
• 1:04:41
  So
• 1:04:41
  you
• 1:04:42
  have
• 1:04:42
  come
• 1:04:42
  to
• 1:04:42
  the
• 1:04:42
  right
• 1:04:42
  place.
• 1:04:43
  Thank
• 1:04:43
  you
• 1:04:43
  so
• 1:04:44
  much,
• 1:04:44
  Arpa.
• 1:04:44
  Thank
• 1:04:44
  you
• 1:04:44
  for
• 1:04:44
  sharing
• 1:04:45
  your
• 1:04:45
  thoughts
• 1:04:45
  with
• 1:04:45
  us.
• 1:04:46
  Thank
• 1:04:46
  you
• 1:04:46
  very
• 1:04:46
  much.
• 1:04:46
  Thank
• 1:04:47
  you.
• 1:04:49
  That
• 1:04:50
  was
• 1:04:50
  no
• 1:04:50
  Mastat
• 1:04:51
  the
• 1:04:51
  Knowledge
• 1:04:52
  podcast
• 1:04:53
  by
• 1:04:53
  the
• 1:04:53
  Sankal
• 1:04:54
  and
• 1:04:54
  Collegium.