Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / War in the Suburbs: Inside Victoria’s Armed Robbery Squad | Rod Porter

Transcript

War in the Suburbs: Inside Victoria’s Armed Robbery Squad | Rod Porter · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apoche Production Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm
0:16
Speaker 1: your host. Adam Shand my guest today served his community
0:20
Speaker 1: as a police officer during some of the most dangerous
0:23
Speaker 1: times in living memory. A newsagent in Footscray robbed at gunpoint.
0:28
Speaker 2: Another armed robbery in Melbourne's North.
0:31
Speaker 1: To Police are hunting three men after a brazen daylight
0:35
Speaker 1: hold up at a suburban bank. Rod Porter was a
0:39
Speaker 1: member of Victoria Police's Armed Robbery Squad, a unit that
0:43
Speaker 1: had been accused of excessive force and violence when dealing
0:46
Speaker 1: with a wave of armed offenders terrorizing the state in
0:50
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and eighties. The Victoria Police Armed Robbery
0:54
Speaker 1: Squad is facing intense scrutiny, including coronial inquiries into fatal shootings.
1:01
Speaker 1: The members of the squad made no apologies for taking
1:04
Speaker 1: a hard rue line with these desperate bandits, who would
1:07
Speaker 1: hit any outlet, from banks and tabs down to small
1:11
Speaker 1: businesses like newsagents and corner stores anywhere they could find cash,
1:15
Speaker 1: often leaving staff highly traumatized. For everyday Victorian's shop workers,
1:21
Speaker 1: bank tellers, small business owners, the fear is real, as
1:25
Speaker 1: the headlines are daily, but this high stakes policing also
1:30
Speaker 1: left its mark on officers. Rod Porter's service, from being
1:34
Speaker 1: involved in fatal shootouts, armed robbery suspect shot dead in
1:38
Speaker 1: confrontation with Victoria police to running Mark Brandon Chopper red
1:43
Speaker 1: as an informer, stays with him today, long after his retirement.
1:48
Speaker 1: As he approaches his eightieth birthday, Chopper Reid claims corruption
1:53
Speaker 1: as internal investigation begins, and it's my great pleasure to
1:58
Speaker 1: welcome Rod to the real crime studio gide Rod.
2:03
Speaker 2: Pleasure.
2:03
Speaker 1: Once a copper, always a copper. I can see you
2:06
Speaker 1: back in the job. You know, say, mustache, different color
2:10
Speaker 1: and same hairstyle. How much does your career stay with you?
2:13
Speaker 1: And I think people talk about a career, but it's
2:15
Speaker 1: really a life, isn't it.
2:17
Speaker 2: Absolutely it is and still with me to this day.
2:20
Speaker 2: I still live and breathe the police force, probably through
2:24
Speaker 2: my son who's a member of the police force. But
2:29
Speaker 2: I'm extremely interested in what Victoria police are all about,
2:34
Speaker 2: or police in general.
2:35
Speaker 1: I actually met your son recently on the radio. Was
2:37
Speaker 1: at a job. There was a blok had driven in
2:39
Speaker 1: the McDonald's rather than the drive through, and when I
2:42
Speaker 1: was struck, well go. So I won't say his name.
2:45
Speaker 1: It's obviously it's confidential. His willingness to talk to people.
2:49
Speaker 1: And I think your era of coppers certain and you
2:53
Speaker 1: had to talk to people.
2:54
Speaker 2: Well, we used a different language. I think back then
2:58
Speaker 2: they're very restricted today. I know my son is a
3:02
Speaker 2: very good communicator, very even tempered young men, and from
3:08
Speaker 2: all the feedback, I get he does a wonderful job.
3:11
Speaker 2: But it's there were different times when I was in
3:14
Speaker 2: and I think we had a different method of communicating,
3:17
Speaker 2: how different, very different. I think we were a little
3:21
Speaker 2: bit more physical at times. You know, there were times
3:25
Speaker 2: that where you needed to be physical with the individuals
3:28
Speaker 2: we were dealing with. But now they're more restricted in here,
3:32
Speaker 2: they can go about their careers. Sometimes I don't think
3:37
Speaker 2: it's for the better, no, I.
3:39
Speaker 1: Mean, society has definitely changed. But back then, I mean
3:42
Speaker 1: you ended up in the hold up Squad, which was
3:44
Speaker 1: the heyday Vicaria one of the highlights.
3:47
Speaker 2: You absolutely it was very proud to sales and the
3:50
Speaker 2: robbery Squad.
3:51
Speaker 1: And you were dealing with the cohort of crooks back
3:54
Speaker 1: then that weren't afraid of the coppers. They saw themselves
3:57
Speaker 1: at war with police and there were no half measures
4:01
Speaker 1: from either side.
4:02
Speaker 2: No, that's right. I mean we were dealing with people
4:05
Speaker 2: in the robbery sphere that would shoot you quick as
4:09
Speaker 2: look at you. And if we have any doubt about that,
4:12
Speaker 2: You've got the Wall Street murderers, You've got the murderers
4:15
Speaker 2: of Gary Silken, Rod Miller, and more recently we've got
4:20
Speaker 2: des Freeman. I mean, there are people out there that
4:23
Speaker 2: have no respect for police, what they do, what they represent,
4:28
Speaker 2: and as I said, they would shoot you quick as
4:30
Speaker 2: look at you.
4:31
Speaker 1: And I mean you were pitched right into the middle
4:34
Speaker 1: of that whole lead up to Wall Street. There's a
4:38
Speaker 1: few dates that I'm going to throw at you which
4:39
Speaker 1: I think are important to your career, and one of them,
4:42
Speaker 1: of course, was the twenty fifth of March nine eighty seven,
4:45
Speaker 1: where you were involved in the shooting of Mark Milleritano.
4:49
Speaker 1: And you've written about that. If you go into Google
4:51
Speaker 1: people you can find this second or third entry is
4:54
Speaker 1: how that day stays with you. But you had no
4:58
Speaker 1: choice what happened that day?
5:01
Speaker 2: Yes, Well, Mark was a prolific he was running right,
5:06
Speaker 2: He had a huge heroine habit, and he was committing
5:12
Speaker 2: robbery's on a weekly basis using a motorcycle. He was
5:17
Speaker 2: a seasoned criminal for a young man. Was useless bringing
5:21
Speaker 2: him in to talk to him. You wouldn't respond to
5:24
Speaker 2: any questioning. He virtually had to catch him on the
5:26
Speaker 2: job and he was resorting to firing shots more and
5:32
Speaker 2: more as he went along. And his last robbery was
5:36
Speaker 2: on a newsagent in Footscray. He walked into the news
5:42
Speaker 2: agency with his helmet on and firearm in hand, and
5:48
Speaker 2: the proprietor was standing behind the counter. Mark makes a demand,
5:53
Speaker 2: threatens him with the firearm. This gentleman says, mate, here's
5:57
Speaker 2: the money, here's to tell take what you want, don't
6:01
Speaker 2: hurt anybody. In fact, if you want more, I've got
6:04
Speaker 2: bags of coins just behind that door. So Mark robbed him,
6:09
Speaker 2: took a couple of bags of coins and as he
6:13
Speaker 2: reached the door, turned around and fired a shot at
6:16
Speaker 2: this poor man who did nothing to resist him. Luckily
6:20
Speaker 2: he missed. So it was at that stage we decided
6:24
Speaker 2: we've got to get this guy off the street. He's
6:27
Speaker 2: going to kill someone. So we set up an operation
6:30
Speaker 2: and the idea was that we were going to have
6:33
Speaker 2: him apprehended in his flat by the Special Operations Group,
6:38
Speaker 2: but that went turned to dust because he left before
6:42
Speaker 2: we could get them set up. So then it was
6:45
Speaker 2: up to us, us being two carloads of Robbie Squad detectives.
6:49
Speaker 2: So I said, let's follow him until we can get
6:53
Speaker 2: him into an area that's safe to intercept me. Because
6:56
Speaker 2: we knew for sure that he'd have a firearm, and
6:59
Speaker 2: from intelligence we got he was happy to shoot it
7:03
Speaker 2: out with The police started following him at some distance.
7:07
Speaker 2: It didn't take him long to realize that he was
7:09
Speaker 2: being followed. He had several hundred meters start on us.
7:13
Speaker 2: He decided to do a U turn and drive back
7:16
Speaker 2: towards us. So we formed a formation two cars side
7:21
Speaker 2: by side to intercept him. We said to our offsider,
7:25
Speaker 2: who had a pump action shotgun, soon as we stop him,
7:30
Speaker 2: get out and cover him with the shotgun. So he did.
7:35
Speaker 2: Soon as the cars came to a stop, he jumped
7:37
Speaker 2: out with the shotgun, ran up towards Militana. Militana went
7:43
Speaker 2: for a firearm in the bend of his trousers, pulled
7:46
Speaker 2: it out with that. Our man fired a shot into
7:51
Speaker 2: the windscreen. The rest of us were out of our
7:55
Speaker 2: cars at that stage with guns drawn, and once that
7:59
Speaker 2: shot hit the windscreen, we thought, well, that's the end
8:02
Speaker 2: of it. He's gone, and we all relaxed, and the
8:06
Speaker 2: next thing, that passenger door flew open, and there he
8:09
Speaker 2: jumped with the firearm in his hand, leveled it at
8:14
Speaker 2: us and started running down the street. So we all
8:16
Speaker 2: opened fire. Unfortunately he died as a result of it.
8:22
Speaker 2: So that was a rather horrific day and wasn't the
8:27
Speaker 2: yet come we desired, but we had no choice. Then
8:31
Speaker 2: we had to go through the trauma of Corona's in question.
8:35
Speaker 1: You know, lo's like in the seconds after these things.
8:39
Speaker 2: Happened, absolutely surreal. You're thinking, did that actually happen? Is
8:45
Speaker 2: this real? But you know it is real because you're
8:48
Speaker 2: looking at the body and we all ran up. Of
8:52
Speaker 2: course I kicked the gun away from him, it was
8:54
Speaker 2: on the ground, and you just find it difficult to believe.
8:58
Speaker 2: And then you think to yourself, why me? This is
9:03
Speaker 2: just a terrible situation being it's gut wrenching, scary, and
9:09
Speaker 2: imagine your.
9:10
Speaker 1: Point thinking to yourself, was there anything else I could
9:12
Speaker 1: have done?
9:13
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yes? Could we have done this any other way?
9:18
Speaker 2: And you know in the back of your mind, eventually
9:20
Speaker 2: this is going to go to the coroner's court and
9:23
Speaker 2: barristers that will represent the family will have months to
9:26
Speaker 2: sit there and think it through in the comfort of
9:29
Speaker 2: the offices, and why didn't you do this, or why
9:32
Speaker 2: didn't you say that? And did you consider this? Which
9:37
Speaker 2: is all very well, but no you don't at the
9:39
Speaker 2: time because the adrenaline is rushing. Your life's at risk
9:44
Speaker 2: and all you want to do is survive and go
9:47
Speaker 2: home to your family. So we went through all that
9:50
Speaker 2: at the coroner's court, and the family accused us of
9:53
Speaker 2: executing him, which was pretty hard to take. And of
9:58
Speaker 2: course it all gets reported and some people look at
10:01
Speaker 2: you a bit differently. So that's a dramatic effect.
10:05
Speaker 1: Dramatic effect, and that's one of those days that stays with.
10:08
Speaker 2: You even to this day. Absolutely it does. Yeah, I
10:12
Speaker 2: think of it constantly. Actually in what context? Oh I
10:16
Speaker 2: dream to this day. I relive it, and if I
10:19
Speaker 2: drive through Flemington or anywhere near that place, I just
10:24
Speaker 2: get a sense of fear. It's very hard to explain,
10:28
Speaker 2: but it's a very uncomfortable feeling and you never get
10:32
Speaker 2: rid of it. You never get it.
10:35
Speaker 1: And when you think about it, he's like twenty two, Yes,
10:38
Speaker 1: a young man, What a shameful waste of life, absolutely, yeah.
10:44
Speaker 1: And the effect that it has on everyone else around
10:46
Speaker 1: his family, you, your colleagues, your families. Yeah, I mean
10:51
Speaker 1: your a husband and a father at that time.
10:53
Speaker 2: Absolutely I was. And my wife found out about it.
10:57
Speaker 2: She was preparing the evening meal and it came up
11:00
Speaker 2: as a news flash on television. And I'd previously said
11:05
Speaker 2: to my colleagues in the office, don't ring her, don't
11:08
Speaker 2: tell her, old telling her myself. But then she saw it,
11:12
Speaker 2: and my children said, she ran around in circles like
11:15
Speaker 2: a chick with its head cut off, saying he's killed someone.
11:19
Speaker 2: He's killed someone. That had a huge effect on her,
11:23
Speaker 2: and no doubt my children, So everyone suffers as a
11:27
Speaker 2: result of it, and your marriage. A marriage folded years
11:33
Speaker 2: later because I think I was involved in so many
11:38
Speaker 2: close calls in my career, if I can use the term,
11:42
Speaker 2: I think I was a shit magnet and that took
11:45
Speaker 2: its told to That was one of many incidentss and
11:49
Speaker 2: I think she just got to the stage where she
11:52
Speaker 2: just couldn't take anymore.
11:55
Speaker 1: And in those situations, a lot of officers in those days,
11:58
Speaker 1: there was no debriefing, there was no psychiatric support. You
12:00
Speaker 1: just went out back on the job the next day
12:02
Speaker 1: pretty much, and if I guess, you could ask for it,
12:04
Speaker 1: but people didn't want to asked for it. They didn't
12:06
Speaker 1: feel it was the right thing to do.
12:08
Speaker 2: It was an offer to you say no, I'm sorry.
12:12
Speaker 2: I've got to correct that with my previous episodes, and
12:15
Speaker 2: I'm sure we're going to talk about the middle of
12:17
Speaker 2: tano one there was a brand new false psychologist and
12:23
Speaker 2: we had access to her. Yeah, she was very good.
12:26
Speaker 2: She came into the office and sat down with us
12:29
Speaker 2: and debriefed us, and that was a good result. But
12:33
Speaker 2: prior to that, nothing, And so you tend.
12:36
Speaker 1: To debrief with your colleagues down the pub or something.
12:39
Speaker 2: I guess, Well, not even that. You just went home
12:43
Speaker 2: and turn up the next shift and don't be late, and.
12:49
Speaker 1: Would you talk to your wife about what's happened or
12:51
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you talk to your colleagues just
12:54
Speaker 1: during the course of the shift and the next day.
12:57
Speaker 2: But I can't recall it again. To the pub after
13:01
Speaker 2: that event and speaking with him were pretty tough days.
13:06
Speaker 2: You expected to be tough. Go join the police force
13:10
Speaker 2: if you can't handle it. That was the attitude.
13:13
Speaker 1: I mean, you'd had ten years of this sort of
13:15
Speaker 1: stuff by this time, I mean going back to I
13:18
Speaker 1: think seventy seven, you're in a bank hold up in
13:21
Speaker 1: Brunswick where I don't think you even armed.
13:24
Speaker 2: No what happened that day, That's an interesting day. I
13:30
Speaker 2: just joined a specialized police unit called the surveillance unit.
13:36
Speaker 2: The name will suggest that what we did is followed
13:39
Speaker 2: criminals around and to see what they're up to and
13:42
Speaker 2: what have you. And this was my first day in
13:46
Speaker 2: the surveillance unit and the boss put me in the
13:49
Speaker 2: car with a seasoned surveillance operative and he was told
13:54
Speaker 2: just to show me the rapes and show me around.
13:57
Speaker 2: But that fellow had just got a promotion to a
14:02
Speaker 2: country police station and was very get to get there
14:05
Speaker 2: and get started. So after about an hour he said, well,
14:09
Speaker 2: I'm off, I'm going home. You just fear your day
14:12
Speaker 2: in as best you can and best of luck. So
14:17
Speaker 2: I thought, what am I going to do to kill time?
14:19
Speaker 2: And I was recently transferred from Collingwood to the surveillance units.
14:24
Speaker 2: I thought I'll call into the Collingwood police station and
14:27
Speaker 2: see mywle mates. And whilst I was there, a call
14:30
Speaker 2: came over the radio that an armed robbery was in
14:34
Speaker 2: progress in Saint George's Road, North Fitzroy. Two offenders dressed
14:39
Speaker 2: in suits and ties, one armed with an automatic military rifle,
14:44
Speaker 2: one with a handgun. They've escaped in an Alpha Romeya
14:48
Speaker 2: and they gave the description and registered number and all
14:52
Speaker 2: the rest of it. So, having worked in the Collingwood area,
14:57
Speaker 2: I thought, what would I do if I'd just held
15:00
Speaker 2: up the bank in North Fitzroy. And I thought, I'd
15:02
Speaker 2: head for the Qube Boulevard, which will take me that
15:05
Speaker 2: much further away from the crime scene. I'll take. I'll
15:08
Speaker 2: drive along the boulevard just on the off chance I'm
15:12
Speaker 2: going to come across them. Well, and behold, you know
15:15
Speaker 2: the boulevard Q boulevards very winding if you don't know it.
15:19
Speaker 2: And I'm driving, I want keep in mind I'm in
15:22
Speaker 2: an unmarked police car and unarmed, and I'm approaching a
15:26
Speaker 2: bend and the next thing, this Alfa Romeo comes around
15:29
Speaker 2: the bend and there's these two lakes sitting in it,
15:32
Speaker 2: laughing and joking. Obviously it's them, So I thought, I've
15:36
Speaker 2: got to do my best not to alert them that
15:39
Speaker 2: I'm onto them. So I went continued on my way
15:42
Speaker 2: around the bend, did a U turn and then came
15:45
Speaker 2: up behind him and gave him a bit of rope.
15:48
Speaker 2: Come up to G twenty four, said I've got this
15:51
Speaker 2: unit in my line of sight. And they became very excited,
15:55
Speaker 2: calling for any unit clear to back me up. And
16:00
Speaker 2: I can remember distinctly the operator, who was very good.
16:04
Speaker 2: He said, are there any tog P eight units in
16:08
Speaker 2: the area that can take up the pursuit.
16:12
Speaker 1: As a tactical group.
16:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. But anyhow, as this is going on, I look
16:16
Speaker 2: in the rear vision mirror and there's a Divvy van
16:19
Speaker 2: right up my clacker with its lights going, no siren,
16:22
Speaker 2: thank god. And I said, look, I've got a Divvy
16:24
Speaker 2: van right behind me. I'm going to pull over if
16:27
Speaker 2: they can come up and take up the pursuit, and
16:30
Speaker 2: then I'll follow them as a backup. And of course,
16:33
Speaker 2: soon as that happened, they planned it, and boy did
16:37
Speaker 2: they plan it. They were driving like absolute maniacs and
16:41
Speaker 2: going up and down backstreets of Q. It was like
16:44
Speaker 2: something out of an American moving knocking rubbish bins in
16:48
Speaker 2: the air and wrong side of the road, right side
16:51
Speaker 2: of the raid. And eventually they turn into Wall Street
16:55
Speaker 2: that runs up to the Q junction with a tram
16:58
Speaker 2: running up it. And they come out of this side
17:01
Speaker 2: street turn left and it's a tram stop, and the
17:04
Speaker 2: tram stop and the cars on the inside are blocking
17:08
Speaker 2: any thoroughy. So they went onto the wrong side of
17:12
Speaker 2: the raid. Divvy van, wrong side of the raid right
17:15
Speaker 2: up there, Clacker and then there's me and I got
17:18
Speaker 2: alongside them, and at one stage they went onto the footpath.
17:22
Speaker 2: Divvyvan went on to the foot path and they tried
17:25
Speaker 2: to come off the footpath and I knocked them back
17:27
Speaker 2: on with my car. And when they got to the junction,
17:31
Speaker 2: they were facing a red light, not that that was
17:33
Speaker 2: going to stop them, but that turned green just as
17:36
Speaker 2: they were approaching it, and a truck came around the
17:40
Speaker 2: blind corner right in front of them, so they went
17:43
Speaker 2: crash into the side of the truck. I was dressed
17:47
Speaker 2: in shorts, two shirt and runners had no gun, no gun,
17:52
Speaker 2: So I ran out of up the back of the
17:54
Speaker 2: Alpha Romeo onto the roof. As the driver stepped out,
17:58
Speaker 2: I grabbed him around the neck and dragged him to
18:01
Speaker 2: the ground. And the next thing I remember these batons
18:05
Speaker 2: raining down on him and me, you know, from police
18:09
Speaker 2: getting beaten because I was in the raw, so I
18:12
Speaker 2: quickly extracted myself from that, and then another group of
18:16
Speaker 2: coppers dragged a brother out the other side, and virtually
18:19
Speaker 2: that was the end of those guys. But they were
18:22
Speaker 2: unknown offenders at that stage, and as a result of that,
18:26
Speaker 2: they to pin three more robberies on them, one on
18:30
Speaker 2: a hospital payroll. They were very active boys. As it
18:36
Speaker 2: turned out, the firearms were imitation, but we didn't know
18:41
Speaker 2: that at the time, you know, we thought we're dealing
18:43
Speaker 2: with the real thing. I can remember seeing the bag
18:45
Speaker 2: of money on the back seat. But they used to
18:48
Speaker 2: send messages home and photographs of themselves out here. Look
18:52
Speaker 2: how well we're doing. You know. We were in a
18:54
Speaker 2: best suits and we'd go to the best restaurants and
18:56
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and the family bag. Really successful businessmen
19:03
Speaker 2: are in the monkey business.
19:07
Speaker 1: Because there were some very brave arm robbers in those days.
19:12
Speaker 1: They were very active. You had people of the caliber
19:14
Speaker 1: of Ray Chuck Bennett, Normanie Lee, Flemington Crew, Victor Pierce,
19:19
Speaker 1: sed Horton, Graham Jensen, the list goes on, and there
19:22
Speaker 1: were people can't remember this now, most people too young,
19:26
Speaker 1: but there were six thousand armed robberies a year in
19:29
Speaker 1: Australia back in those days. So if you were in
19:32
Speaker 1: the arm robbery squad, you were busy all the time,
19:35
Speaker 1: absolutely run off our feet and there were occasions where
19:39
Speaker 1: you didn't go home.
19:40
Speaker 2: You'd be out kicking indoors late at night or checking
19:45
Speaker 2: pubs or two up schools and legal card game premises
19:51
Speaker 2: looking for crooks. And it wasn't worth going home because
19:54
Speaker 2: the next morning you'd have to be up at five
19:57
Speaker 2: o'clock to go and kick more dools in. And it
20:00
Speaker 2: was just took it style, it really did, you know.
20:03
Speaker 2: But I've got to say were the toughest bunch of
20:06
Speaker 2: men I've ever worked with and staunch. They always had
20:10
Speaker 2: each other's back. It was an absolute pleasure to work
20:14
Speaker 2: with him.
20:15
Speaker 1: It became a force within a force in the sense
20:18
Speaker 1: in those days, and you guys had the ties with
20:20
Speaker 1: the cross pistols on there, there was a strong fellowship.
20:23
Speaker 1: In the end that became something Victoria Police wanted to
20:26
Speaker 1: break up and they actually after your time, but they
20:29
Speaker 1: saw it as such a threat this group within.
20:33
Speaker 2: How stupid were they absolutely stupid decision. I mean the
20:37
Speaker 2: crims were terrified of the armed robberies. Called it. And
20:41
Speaker 2: we know that for a fact because we had them
20:43
Speaker 2: on bugs for various places we were checking out. All
20:47
Speaker 2: they ever spoke about is the arm robbers. Oh Jesus,
20:50
Speaker 2: you know the armed robbery's card. There was one in
20:53
Speaker 2: particular I remember, I won't mention his name, but he
20:56
Speaker 2: thought he was a pretty tough crim He was an
20:58
Speaker 2: arm robber. We wanted to raid his place after a
21:02
Speaker 2: particular arm robbery where he fired shots at a police.
21:06
Speaker 2: We weren't allowed to because they said, you've got to
21:09
Speaker 2: use the SAG for this, she's too dangerous. So he
21:13
Speaker 2: engaged the SAG. And how they operate. They set up
21:17
Speaker 2: perimeters and they have an assault team that goes in
21:21
Speaker 2: and captures the crook. And how they came up on
21:24
Speaker 2: the radio and said, we have him in custody, can
21:27
Speaker 2: you send him the arrest team. So that was me
21:29
Speaker 2: and a couple of others. There's this hero laying on
21:33
Speaker 2: his belly on the floor with his hands trussed behind
21:37
Speaker 2: his back to his legs which were bent up. Say,
21:39
Speaker 2: he looked like a Christmas turkey and he's crying and
21:43
Speaker 2: he's screamed, who are you, what are you doing? Hell?
21:47
Speaker 2: What's going on? He's peed his pants, and I thought
21:50
Speaker 2: I'd love to take a photo of this and spread
21:53
Speaker 2: it around to his friends. I mean, I don't blame
21:55
Speaker 2: Hi might be terrified to but just saw him in
21:58
Speaker 2: a different light. You know, all the bravado and toughness
22:01
Speaker 2: had gone out the window because he's met with the
22:05
Speaker 2: same force, and it has a dramatic effect on them.
22:09
Speaker 2: They don't want to play anymore. It's too hard, it's
22:11
Speaker 2: too tough, too dangerous, and they forget about all the people.
22:15
Speaker 2: And I've seen them that they've put in hospitals, in
22:18
Speaker 2: mental institutions because of their antics, where they've put guns
22:23
Speaker 2: at young female or male teller's heads and just ruin them.
22:28
Speaker 2: Some of them cannot go back to work. And people
22:31
Speaker 2: forget all this sort of stuff, you know, they just
22:34
Speaker 2: see them as modern day need Kelly's Well.
22:38
Speaker 1: They were. There was this term. Oh they had a
22:40
Speaker 1: lot of dash these but they were pointing firearms, as
22:44
Speaker 1: you said, defenseless tellers and newsagents, for God's sakes, your newsagent.
22:47
Speaker 1: You know what sort of person does that. They're normally
22:50
Speaker 1: drug addicts. Back in those days, there was a lot
22:52
Speaker 1: of drug fueled robbery. There was another time where I
22:57
Speaker 1: think someone even PingER shot at you or certainly was
23:00
Speaker 1: making to shoot you. Where in a bank where he
23:05
Speaker 1: bailed all the customers up and there was down on
23:07
Speaker 1: the floor with one of the customers with a shotgun
23:10
Speaker 1: to her head just for shits and giggles, and then
23:13
Speaker 1: you come on the scene. What happened?
23:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, that again was when I was in the surveillance
23:18
Speaker 2: unit unarmed. How wouldn't they give you a gun because
23:22
Speaker 2: we weren't supposed to engage with the criminals back then.
23:26
Speaker 2: We're only supposed to surveil them and watch them and
23:29
Speaker 2: repull back. But you couldn't help yourself. I think I
23:32
Speaker 2: soon put that to bed that it had to be done.
23:35
Speaker 2: You know, there was no option. But in that particular
23:37
Speaker 2: case you're talking about again, it was in the surveillance
23:40
Speaker 2: unit and armed. Rostered to work with another fellow, Bob Robinson,
23:45
Speaker 2: absolute Hero over Man Valor Award winner. And we're in
23:50
Speaker 2: the Brunswick area. A call came over any unit clear
23:54
Speaker 2: for a whole up alarm. Pretty sure it was a
23:56
Speaker 2: Commonwealth bank corner of Whitby Street Melville Road in Brunswick.
24:02
Speaker 2: Robertson knew that area because he worked out that area.
24:05
Speaker 2: He's in uniform. He said, jeez, that's just up the raid.
24:08
Speaker 2: We'll go up and sit off the bank and keep
24:11
Speaker 2: it under observation. So he sat north of the bank
24:16
Speaker 2: on the south side, about two hundred meters up the road,
24:20
Speaker 2: watching the front door. It's one of those old fashioned
24:23
Speaker 2: banks with about four steps and a great big wooden
24:27
Speaker 2: glass tools. Oh god, it seemed like forever he was
24:30
Speaker 2: sitting here and there was no response, no uniform, and
24:34
Speaker 2: the operator keeps calling you any unit clean or any clear.
24:39
Speaker 2: So I said, look, if it's an armed robbery, they're
24:42
Speaker 2: been and gone because it's been that long. Would you
24:46
Speaker 2: like me to go in and confirm it? And he goes, yeah,
24:49
Speaker 2: by all means, be careful. So I walk up to
24:52
Speaker 2: the front door. In my mind it's a false alarm
24:55
Speaker 2: or they're been and gone. The glass door had stickers
24:59
Speaker 2: all over it in different advertising, different things, so he
25:02
Speaker 2: couldn't really see in pull the door open. The first
25:06
Speaker 2: thing I see is this lady laying face down, an
25:09
Speaker 2: old lady. I thought, oh Jesus, poor old girl's falling over,
25:13
Speaker 2: and I went to go over and help her up,
25:16
Speaker 2: and then I noticed there's about half a dozen other
25:18
Speaker 2: people laying on the ground. And then this foresells out.
25:22
Speaker 2: Shoot him, shoot him, shoot him. And I look up
25:25
Speaker 2: and two meters from my face is a crook standing
25:30
Speaker 2: on the counter with his beanie on and pointing a
25:33
Speaker 2: shotgun right my face. So I just froze. The black
25:39
Speaker 2: behind the counter, dropped the tray, made a noise distracted him.
25:43
Speaker 2: He looked around to see what it was, and I thought,
25:46
Speaker 2: here's my opportunity. Bolted straight back out the door, waiting
25:51
Speaker 2: for a gunshot, waiting to feel the pain of a
25:54
Speaker 2: shot hit in my back. But got onto Melbolle Road,
25:59
Speaker 2: started running towards Robinson in his police car, and I'm
26:03
Speaker 2: screaming there in there, in there, get back up. And
26:07
Speaker 2: then I looked over my shoulder as I'm running, and
26:09
Speaker 2: here they are. They've come out of the bank into
26:11
Speaker 2: Malville Road, got their balaclavers, rolled up onto their heads,
26:16
Speaker 2: got their hands over their face and leveling their guns
26:19
Speaker 2: at me. And I thought, shit, it a term to
26:22
Speaker 2: murder me this month?
26:24
Speaker 1: Did they know your police?
26:25
Speaker 2: Not at that stage? So I turned right into Malville Street,
26:30
Speaker 2: which is on the corner. The crooks came out of
26:32
Speaker 2: the bank, followed me into Malville Road, had their balaclavas
26:37
Speaker 2: on top of their heads, hands covering the lower part
26:40
Speaker 2: of their faces, and pointing their firearms at me, and
26:44
Speaker 2: I just felt this cold shiver go through my body.
26:48
Speaker 2: I thought the determined to murder me. I then turned
26:51
Speaker 2: right into Whitby Street and ran as fast as I
26:55
Speaker 2: possibly could because I was a bit trimmer and fitted
26:59
Speaker 2: back those day. But I can remember looking at my
27:02
Speaker 2: feet as I was running, and they didn't seem to
27:04
Speaker 2: be projecting me forward. It was a strange sensation. I thought,
27:08
Speaker 2: let's going hell, and I'm not getting far enough away
27:11
Speaker 2: from them. And the next minute, Bob Robinson comes screaming
27:15
Speaker 2: around the corner. It was a valiant charge and the
27:17
Speaker 2: unit we were in and he's tried to run them over,
27:21
Speaker 2: and they leveled the guns at him and they jumped
27:23
Speaker 2: into a doorway. In the meantime, off turn up another
27:26
Speaker 2: lane way and started jumping fence as quickly as I
27:30
Speaker 2: could to get as far away from because I was
27:33
Speaker 2: determined they were going to kill me. And eventually I
27:36
Speaker 2: got to the final fence and I just didn't have
27:40
Speaker 2: any anything left in me. I was gone for all money.
27:43
Speaker 2: So I squatted behind the fence, and I thought, the
27:46
Speaker 2: first spoke that comes over, I'm just gonna king hit
27:49
Speaker 2: him and hope I can knock him out, and then
27:51
Speaker 2: God knows what I'm going to do with the second one.
27:54
Speaker 2: Thank god that didn't happen, because in the meantime, unbeknownst
27:58
Speaker 2: to me, they jumped in the getaway car. So the
28:01
Speaker 2: reason they were furrowing me is because I was running
28:03
Speaker 2: between them and they getaway. All they wanted was for
28:08
Speaker 2: me to get out the way so they could get away.
28:10
Speaker 2: So anyhow, obviously they're not coming over the fence, so
28:13
Speaker 2: I'll make my way back into one of the main
28:16
Speaker 2: streets and Robins comes screaming around and says, quick, get in,
28:21
Speaker 2: get in. I know where they're gone. So we jump
28:24
Speaker 2: in the car and he goes up back lines and
28:28
Speaker 2: the call comes over we have them in custody. And
28:32
Speaker 2: what had happened was that they run into a front
28:35
Speaker 2: yard of a house and hid under a bush. And
28:37
Speaker 2: it was the first pinch of the air wing. Ever.
28:41
Speaker 1: I was going to say, these days you'd have the
28:43
Speaker 1: helicopter h charming in and these sorts of things.
28:46
Speaker 2: This was a fixed wing aircraft, and ironically, the observer
28:51
Speaker 2: in it was my old sergeant from Collingwood. When I work,
28:56
Speaker 2: amazing set of circumstance because.
28:58
Speaker 1: Those moments where someone is pointing their far im at
29:01
Speaker 1: you and they are serious as cancer, in those moments.
29:05
Speaker 2: It's well, you know what, I was just waiting for
29:08
Speaker 2: the burning sensation of a bullet to go through me
29:12
Speaker 2: because my mind, No were determined to kill me.
29:17
Speaker 1: Because when we talk about Mark Militano, that was part
29:20
Speaker 1: of a string of events that led up to Wall
29:22
Speaker 1: Street murders of Damian Air and Steve Tynan in October
29:27
Speaker 1: eighty eighth. The crooks, the Flemington Crew, Victor Pierce, Jed Harden, Graham,
29:32
Speaker 1: Jensen McAvoy right, and they were saying that if another
29:38
Speaker 1: of our fellows goes, it'll be time for payback. Were
29:42
Speaker 1: you guys aware of the temperature rising period?
29:47
Speaker 2: And allegedly they were going to murder two robbers squad
29:53
Speaker 2: detectives for every one of these that they lost. And
29:57
Speaker 2: again it's rumor, but rumor has it they didn't have
30:01
Speaker 2: the courage because they thought they're too tough. I'll really
30:07
Speaker 2: fix us up. And you have been on guard too,
30:10
Speaker 2: I'd imagine, yeah, I mean no more getting around with
30:13
Speaker 2: no guns or God no, no, we carried them twenty
30:16
Speaker 2: four hours. Of course we could be called out at
30:18
Speaker 2: any time, and we were so really their counts. But yeah,
30:25
Speaker 2: that was just shocking, those two innocent policemen doing their job.
30:30
Speaker 1: Do you remember where you were when you heard about that.
30:33
Speaker 2: I was on holidays in Sydney, but I know it
30:37
Speaker 2: was a pretty determined group of the arm or wersh
30:41
Speaker 2: squad that wanted to get them and get them quickly.
30:45
Speaker 1: There really was war after that, oh, I mean, there
30:47
Speaker 1: was attempts by coroners and others to say that Victoria police.
30:52
Speaker 2: Were gun happy, and it's easy allegation to make you
30:58
Speaker 2: want to be sitting in the front row suit Quite differently,
31:02
Speaker 2: you know, you got one guy sitting in his warm office.
31:06
Speaker 2: The greatest threat is to get a paper cut, and
31:09
Speaker 2: you've got the coppice in the front row wondering if
31:13
Speaker 2: you're going to go home to their families that night,
31:16
Speaker 2: and NEI are two extremes. Very easy to sit there
31:19
Speaker 2: in a nice, warm atmosphere and make these decisions, but
31:25
Speaker 2: not so easy when you're running a flat out.
31:28
Speaker 1: Right and the impact on you personally and not all
31:30
Speaker 1: your colleagues. I mean by this time. I think your
31:32
Speaker 1: marriage is blown up at this point. By now, So
31:35
Speaker 1: how was life for you at this point?
31:37
Speaker 2: Well, it was devastating, really totally devastating. It was awful.
31:43
Speaker 2: Never thought it had happened to me because I come
31:45
Speaker 2: from a single parent family. I thought, no, that would
31:50
Speaker 2: never happen to me. And there it is a did
31:54
Speaker 2: as a result of police souls.
31:58
Speaker 1: And do you see how you were back then and
32:00
Speaker 1: how that may have contributed to the issues in your manners?
32:03
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, I was married to the police ofs lived,
32:07
Speaker 2: breathed ate it. I can tell you you don't get
32:10
Speaker 2: any thanks for it. At the end of the day,
32:13
Speaker 2: you questioned yourself was it worth it? I mean I
32:16
Speaker 2: had a lot of good times. I met a lot
32:18
Speaker 2: of good people. I met more evil people, but had
32:23
Speaker 2: a heavy toll.
32:25
Speaker 1: Another important date for you, both professionally and personally, was
32:28
Speaker 1: the twelfth of June eighty seven, the early morning hours
32:32
Speaker 1: when Mark Chopper Reid shot Sammy the Turk down at Bojangles.
32:37
Speaker 1: At that time, Chopper was your informer, and it was
32:41
Speaker 1: the start of a lot of dramas for you because
32:43
Speaker 1: he wanted to get off and he was saying all
32:45
Speaker 1: kinds of things. I've actually got a couple of photographs
32:47
Speaker 1: that his father was sending around of Mark wearing a
32:50
Speaker 1: bullet proof vest that he claimed that yourself and Steve Kerna,
32:53
Speaker 1: your colleague, had given him.
32:56
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, well, Chopper was my informer. And how that
33:01
Speaker 2: came about was on my crew in there. I was
33:03
Speaker 2: a sergeant crew of two. One of my crew was
33:08
Speaker 2: a blake that was in the CMF as it was
33:11
Speaker 2: then Citizens Military Forces. And in the same unit that
33:15
Speaker 2: he was in was a screw from.
33:18
Speaker 1: Would have been Bendigo.
33:20
Speaker 2: Bendigar, Yeah, Bendigo, that's right. And he contacted my offsider
33:24
Speaker 2: and said, look, we've got this bloke called Mark Reid
33:27
Speaker 2: Chopper Red is a bit of a maniac, but what
33:30
Speaker 2: he doesn't know about the underworld is not worth knowing.
33:34
Speaker 2: And he's approached me, this screw and said, can you
33:38
Speaker 2: put me on to someone out there, a policeman preferably
33:42
Speaker 2: a detective, who I can talk to because I've got
33:45
Speaker 2: so much information I could pass on to them. So
33:49
Speaker 2: this fallet contacted my offsider and he said, yeah, look,
33:53
Speaker 2: when this read blake gets out, tell him to ring
33:56
Speaker 2: this number and we'll speak to him. Well, in the meantime,
34:01
Speaker 2: this policeman that was getting this information went on leave,
34:05
Speaker 2: so it was left to me. Eventually, read rigs me
34:09
Speaker 2: when he gets out of jail, tells me he wants
34:12
Speaker 2: to give me some information on various crimes and what
34:16
Speaker 2: have you. So I arranged to meet him with my offsideer,
34:19
Speaker 2: Steve Kerney in a hotel in Paran and we walk
34:23
Speaker 2: in and there was no mistaken who he was. He
34:26
Speaker 2: was huge, He just worked out at the gym all
34:29
Speaker 2: day every day back then introduced ourselves, spoke a bit
34:33
Speaker 2: of rubbish at a beer and I said, look mate,
34:37
Speaker 2: this is very unusual. You've got to agree. Why do
34:41
Speaker 2: you want to give us information expecting to be paid,
34:44
Speaker 2: expecting favors. What's behind it? He goes, no, not at all,
34:49
Speaker 2: and he acted as though he was really put out.
34:51
Speaker 2: But we suggested that. He said, I've spent the last
34:55
Speaker 2: fifteen years of eating, living, drinking in the same environment
35:00
Speaker 2: as these pigs, and I hate them and I want
35:02
Speaker 2: to stitch them up. I thought, he just doesn't ring true.
35:06
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not liking this. Why it's never happened
35:11
Speaker 2: to me before, And I thought, there's got to be
35:14
Speaker 2: more to it. So I wanted time to think. So
35:17
Speaker 2: I said, look, okay, we've my contact. Let's meet back
35:20
Speaker 2: here again tomorrow and you'll have had time to think
35:23
Speaker 2: about what you're suggesting, and we'll have time to think
35:27
Speaker 2: about it. And he was very put out and upset.
35:30
Speaker 2: I could see. Thought, they don't trust me, they don't
35:32
Speaker 2: believe me. So we meet him the next day, same pub,
35:37
Speaker 2: standing at the bar and he's got a Caliica bag.
35:40
Speaker 2: We walk in, greet each other, and he up ends
35:43
Speaker 2: the contents of this Caligo bag on the bar and
35:48
Speaker 2: there's six handguns fall out, and I was so angry.
35:52
Speaker 2: I just I don't know why I was angry, but
35:55
Speaker 2: I was really angry. I said, you fucking idiot, what
36:00
Speaker 2: do you think you're doing? Oh? Why, why, mister Pooter,
36:03
Speaker 2: what have I done?
36:04
Speaker 1: You know?
36:05
Speaker 2: He said, I got these off Mad Charlie, and I
36:08
Speaker 2: want to show you that he has access to guns.
36:10
Speaker 1: And Mad Charlie had Glazy met before pen was actually but.
36:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyhow, I put the guns in back in the
36:18
Speaker 2: bag and we confiscated those. I said, don't ever ever
36:22
Speaker 2: do anything like that again. Again. He was his put
36:26
Speaker 2: out because I didn't appreciate his efforts. But then we
36:30
Speaker 2: met continually after that and he gave us good information.
36:34
Speaker 2: We were locking crooks up with fright and said it.
36:37
Speaker 2: And then there was an armed robbery on a armored
36:41
Speaker 2: van in glen Waverley. The crooks were a Valiant and
36:45
Speaker 2: they came screaming around the corner, jumped out of the Valiant,
36:49
Speaker 2: one out of machine gun. He opened up on the van.
36:52
Speaker 2: I thank god no one was killed. One of the
36:54
Speaker 2: guards got hit in the ankle and they did their
36:58
Speaker 2: robbery and they missed, and unusually, we did not get
37:03
Speaker 2: any information at all who it might be. We tried
37:08
Speaker 2: every venue we had and source of information. We got nowhere,
37:13
Speaker 2: and it was frustrating because it was such a horrific
37:16
Speaker 2: arm robbery. Eventually a member of the drug squad came
37:21
Speaker 2: and saw me and he said, look, we've got bugs
37:25
Speaker 2: in a particular house. And one of the blacks says,
37:28
Speaker 2: said that was a major job that young Brian O'Callaghan pulled.
37:32
Speaker 2: The other week. Brian O'Callaghan was again a prolific arm robber.
37:36
Speaker 2: So I thought that all we've got, let's try and
37:39
Speaker 2: work on him and see how we go. And I
37:42
Speaker 2: found out that his sister lived in Preston or somewhere
37:46
Speaker 2: out that way. I got an address and I said
37:49
Speaker 2: to read, do you know Brian O'Callaghan. He said, oh yes,
37:53
Speaker 2: And I said, is there any chance of you making
37:55
Speaker 2: contact with him and get talking about this particular armed
37:59
Speaker 2: robbery and see if he gives any indication that he
38:02
Speaker 2: was involved, and if he was, we will put all
38:04
Speaker 2: our eggs in that basket. And he because, yeah, no problem.
38:10
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it was that night or the
38:13
Speaker 2: next night now, but he makes contact with us, and
38:17
Speaker 2: he said, look, I went to young Brian's sister's house
38:20
Speaker 2: and explained who I was and gave her my address
38:24
Speaker 2: on a piece of paper. Told him to look me
38:27
Speaker 2: up and he said. And that night I was leaving
38:31
Speaker 2: home about eight o'clock at night to go to the pub.
38:34
Speaker 2: He said, a car come screaming around the corner and
38:37
Speaker 2: Blake in the back seat opens up on me with
38:40
Speaker 2: three shots bang, bang bang, And he said, no, I
38:42
Speaker 2: think it's young Brian telling me he doesn't want to
38:45
Speaker 2: talk to me. So from that I thought, okay, he
38:50
Speaker 2: doesn't want to get involved with this, because obviously he's
38:53
Speaker 2: a bit close to Brian because I didn't believe the
38:56
Speaker 2: shots were fired. I'd heard nothing, and that's the kind
39:00
Speaker 2: of thing that would have come to note. Well you
39:02
Speaker 2: would think so. But I then contacted the Collingwood police
39:07
Speaker 2: station after we dismissed him, and said, did you have
39:11
Speaker 2: some shots fired us? Oh? Yeah, it was in history.
39:14
Speaker 2: He said you have three shots. Fine, So we get
39:17
Speaker 2: back in touch with him, and he said, look, I
39:20
Speaker 2: really want to keep doing this job. There's ten thousand
39:23
Speaker 2: reasons for me to do it, because he was a
39:25
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollar reward. But I'll need some protection. And
39:29
Speaker 2: I said, absolutely, no way are you going to get
39:32
Speaker 2: a fire run because it's just fraught with danger. I'm
39:37
Speaker 2: not going to be part of that.
39:39
Speaker 1: Well, he said, have access to his own anyway.
39:42
Speaker 2: Exactly, he could get them any time anyway. He has
39:46
Speaker 2: no no, no, He said, I was thinking of a
39:48
Speaker 2: bulletproof fest, just to give me a bit of insurance. Well,
39:52
Speaker 2: in those days, the police weren't issued bulletproof fests. But
39:56
Speaker 2: one blake that was in the robbery squad, he just
40:00
Speaker 2: got a job as a sergeant back in uniform up
40:04
Speaker 2: the country. He bought his own vest and when he
40:08
Speaker 2: left he said, I'm going to leave this in ma
40:10
Speaker 2: locker for you guys if you ever need to use it.
40:15
Speaker 2: There it is okay. We can lend him this vest
40:19
Speaker 2: for his insurance, as he put it, and hopefully we'll
40:22
Speaker 2: get a result. So that night, that very night, he
40:26
Speaker 2: goes down to bow Jangles nightclub in Saint Kilda and
40:32
Speaker 2: murder Sami the Turk and shows everyone the bullet professed
40:37
Speaker 2: under his shirt. And I got this from now robbery Squad.
40:40
Speaker 2: He's boasting, so he never ever tried to hide the
40:43
Speaker 2: fact that he was an informer. Of course, we know
40:46
Speaker 2: nothing about this until the next morning. I come into
40:50
Speaker 2: work with Steve Kerna, my offsider, and we came from
40:56
Speaker 2: the eastern suburbs, so he used to come down North
40:58
Speaker 2: Road and then turn right into Saint Kilda Road to
41:02
Speaker 2: go to four one two Saint Kilda Road where we work.
41:06
Speaker 2: And on this morning a call comes over the radio
41:09
Speaker 2: as we're driving in. Can someone check out a drunk
41:13
Speaker 2: out the front of Bojangles nightclub laying in the gutter,
41:17
Speaker 2: And then we hear this female voice comes up and
41:22
Speaker 2: she says it's not a drunk. He's being shot through
41:25
Speaker 2: the eye. He's dead. So I said to Steve, Oh,
41:28
Speaker 2: let's go by this and over look what's going on.
41:32
Speaker 2: So we did, and there's this young policewoman standing near
41:36
Speaker 2: with a policeman. That young policewoman is now my wife.
41:40
Speaker 2: So I head back to the office with Steve Kerno
41:43
Speaker 2: and I said to Steve, you know what, It's got
41:46
Speaker 2: all the hallmarks of top a reed. And he said
41:48
Speaker 2: do you think so? And I said, yeah, I got
41:49
Speaker 2: a gut feeling it's him. I said, Buggert, I'm going
41:54
Speaker 2: to bring him in. So we called him in, have
41:56
Speaker 2: him in the interview room and I said, job, that
41:59
Speaker 2: turk that was murdered last night, I reckon that was
42:02
Speaker 2: here that did that job. And he said, Porter, every
42:06
Speaker 2: little kid that cuts his finger, are we going to
42:09
Speaker 2: look at chop a reed for that? And I said no.
42:13
Speaker 2: I said, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that's
42:15
Speaker 2: my gut. Fairly, he goes, no, you're barking up the
42:19
Speaker 2: wrong tree. So we continue to talk a bit of rubbish,
42:23
Speaker 2: and then out of the blue he said, okay, mister Porter,
42:28
Speaker 2: it was me that shot the turk last night. He said,
42:31
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, what have I done?
42:34
Speaker 2: I got rid of a dirty fucking Dayga drug dealer.
42:40
Speaker 2: I said, right, well, I'm sorry, my friend, but I'm
42:44
Speaker 2: going to have to arrest you for murder, which I did.
42:48
Speaker 2: Contact the domicide squad and they came and grabbed him,
42:53
Speaker 2: interviewed him, charged him. Later that night from the remand center,
42:57
Speaker 2: he rings me and says, I've just looked at that
43:01
Speaker 2: take they got me on video and audio when they
43:04
Speaker 2: interviewed me, and he said, I sound like a complete idiot.
43:08
Speaker 2: He said, I want to be interviewed again, and I said, well,
43:11
Speaker 2: that's not my call. I don't know if they do that,
43:14
Speaker 2: but I'll let them know. So I rang them and
43:16
Speaker 2: they said, yeah, that's not a problem, we'll interview him again.
43:19
Speaker 2: So they did, and he contacts me and said the
43:23
Speaker 2: second one was worse than the first one. And I said, well, mate,
43:26
Speaker 2: you know I can't help that.
43:28
Speaker 1: He thinks he's making a movie, not a confession.
43:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
43:31
Speaker 2: And then several weeks later, one of the informants from
43:35
Speaker 2: the homicide squad, he's out at Pentridge visiting Reid for
43:40
Speaker 2: whatever reason, and read says to him, mister Smith will
43:44
Speaker 2: call me mister Smith. He said, mister Porter's not dark
43:48
Speaker 2: on me. Is he, And he says, well, what do
43:49
Speaker 2: you think I've skipped a bit here, because in the meantime,
43:54
Speaker 2: Reid has produced thirty stat declarations implicating me in every
44:00
Speaker 2: crime in Victoria and into state that you can think of.
44:04
Speaker 2: I just missed out on the Bumont children and so
44:07
Speaker 2: that became an internal investigation. They put a task force
44:11
Speaker 2: on me. And he says, mister Pororter is not dark
44:16
Speaker 2: on me. He's a result of this. And he said, well,
44:18
Speaker 2: what do you think you know you've made these bloody
44:21
Speaker 2: stat decks up and you're causing him grief. And he says,
44:25
Speaker 2: but surely he understands. She said, when you have a
44:29
Speaker 2: body at the bottom of a pool, you're throwing a
44:32
Speaker 2: couple of handfuls of dirt just to muddy the situation.
44:36
Speaker 2: And he goes, yeah, well, I don't think he sees
44:39
Speaker 2: it that way, my friend.
44:40
Speaker 1: And that was that, because ultimately he was acquitted, So
44:45
Speaker 1: I guess you could say he's mudding the waters. Finally
44:49
Speaker 1: worked for him in some fashion or other. Absolutely, but
44:51
Speaker 1: it was interesting when I saw him do the interview
44:54
Speaker 1: with sixty Minutes just before his death, and three of
44:57
Speaker 1: the four murders that he was confessing to clearly he
45:00
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it. But amongst all that
45:03
Speaker 1: bullshit was the true confession about killing Sammy the Turk
45:09
Speaker 1: that was no longer self defense. And I think you'd
45:12
Speaker 1: known from the beginning. Everyone's in the Chopper film where
45:15
Speaker 1: he's talking to Sammy and outside and Sammy allegedly grabs
45:19
Speaker 1: the handgun out of his waist belt and points at
45:21
Speaker 1: him and click, so he pulls his four teen shot
45:23
Speaker 1: gun out and foots him. But I think you got
45:26
Speaker 1: a pretty different impression from the first conversation that this
45:30
Speaker 1: was just a cold blooded murder and robbery very much,
45:34
Speaker 1: are you well?
45:35
Speaker 2: He told me himself eventually, because down the track, as
45:38
Speaker 2: you know, we formed the relationship after he got out
45:41
Speaker 2: of jail again and I got him on the talking circuit.
45:45
Speaker 2: That was me that got him onto that. Because you're
45:48
Speaker 2: to blame, he blame. He had no means of making
45:51
Speaker 2: a dollar, no one was going to employ. But what
45:55
Speaker 2: he told me was that he was at the nightclub
45:58
Speaker 2: with some people I don't know who they were, and
46:01
Speaker 2: he saw Sammy the Turk at the bar pull out
46:03
Speaker 2: a big wad of notes and buy his group around
46:07
Speaker 2: of drinks. Chopper asked these people who's that and they
46:11
Speaker 2: said that's Sami. The Turkey's a drug dealer. Chopper went
46:14
Speaker 2: over to Sammi and said, do you know who I am?
46:17
Speaker 2: And Sammy said, yeah, you'll chop a root. And he said,
46:21
Speaker 2: I was watching you pull that big wad of money
46:23
Speaker 2: out of your pocket and that's extremely dangerous in this establishment.
46:28
Speaker 2: He said to you carry a gun and Sammy said, no,
46:31
Speaker 2: I don't. And Chopper said, well, would you like to
46:34
Speaker 2: come into the car park. I've got several guns in
46:37
Speaker 2: the boot of my car. You might like to buy one.
46:40
Speaker 2: Keep in mind, Chopper didn't drive, he didn't have a car.
46:44
Speaker 2: And Sammy goes, yeah, okay, I'll come out and have
46:47
Speaker 2: a look at him. And as they stepped into the
46:49
Speaker 2: car park, Read pulled the four ten out at the
46:52
Speaker 2: back of his pants, which was a sawn all four ten,
46:55
Speaker 2: and shot him in the eye, took his money, and
46:58
Speaker 2: he came up with a story about Sammy grabbing this
47:02
Speaker 2: pistol out of Chopper's belt. Chopper told me that pistol
47:08
Speaker 2: was doctored in some way that it wouldn't fire a
47:11
Speaker 2: shot first up. You had to, you know, if you
47:14
Speaker 2: grabbed it and pulled the trigger, it wouldn't fly. You
47:16
Speaker 2: had to cock it first or some such thing, and
47:19
Speaker 2: then it had fire automatically, one after the other. So
47:23
Speaker 2: he knew that. So even if that was true, he
47:26
Speaker 2: knew that if the Turk grabbed the gun, it wasn't
47:28
Speaker 2: going to fire first.
47:30
Speaker 1: So he basically confessed afterwards. And it was probably good
47:33
Speaker 1: lawyering by Bernie the Attorney O Bama, Yes, and he
47:36
Speaker 1: managed to hoodwink everybody. But ultimately I think that conscience,
47:40
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, that's one thing you do
47:42
Speaker 1: have in common. You've both been in a position where
47:44
Speaker 1: you've taken a life, and I'm sure that it weighed
47:50
Speaker 1: on him differently to you because you did it in
47:53
Speaker 1: the line of duty, But I think still taking a
47:56
Speaker 1: life like that, and when it came to the end
47:58
Speaker 1: of his life, even though he was being paid, you
48:00
Speaker 1: helped him get on the speaking circuit. I helped him
48:03
Speaker 1: make that money from Channel nine by taking that bunch
48:06
Speaker 1: of rubbish to Tanne on know, which I regret in
48:07
Speaker 1: some ways because it goes against everything I think is
48:10
Speaker 1: important in journalism that sixty minutes should have represented. And
48:13
Speaker 1: they were prepared to let him tell lies for a
48:15
Speaker 1: quarter million dollars. But amongst all that, there was that
48:19
Speaker 1: proper confession, and I think that was something in his
48:23
Speaker 1: conscience that he needed to unburden himself when you had
48:26
Speaker 1: this time to talk to him afterwards, when you had
48:28
Speaker 1: to caravan park up the country, and it sounds like
48:31
Speaker 1: that's what he was saying to you.
48:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, he visits quite a few times up here at
48:35
Speaker 2: the caravan park. He was a different person.
48:39
Speaker 1: And basically all those inquiries, the lack of support you
48:43
Speaker 1: got from Victoria Police back then was one of the
48:45
Speaker 1: reasons why you think you ended up pulling the pin.
48:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I just felt very lipped down one particular
48:54
Speaker 2: assistant commissioner that well, after they'd done the internal inquiries,
48:59
Speaker 2: which went for months, and it was I can tell
49:01
Speaker 2: you they turned over ever relief in my life, and
49:05
Speaker 2: they came to the conclusion, this is all bullshit. These
49:08
Speaker 2: are all wise And it went to the officer in
49:12
Speaker 2: charge of id internal investigations at that time and said,
49:16
Speaker 2: we recommend he gets at a reprimand were counseling for
49:21
Speaker 2: lending him the vest and he said, no charge him.
49:24
Speaker 2: Let the courts decide. So thank you very much. And
49:30
Speaker 2: I think that was the beginning of the end for me.
49:32
Speaker 2: I thought I'd give them my heart and soul to
49:35
Speaker 2: this job and a marriage, and this is what I
49:39
Speaker 2: get in return. So yeah, that was very difficult to
49:43
Speaker 2: live with because I think I was a staunch person
49:48
Speaker 2: and I was staunched to the organization. That's the way
49:52
Speaker 2: they treated me.
49:54
Speaker 1: The eras were changing, I think as well, yes, and
49:57
Speaker 1: life was different from when you joined those years earlier.
50:00
Speaker 1: But I guess on the plus side, that day that
50:03
Speaker 1: that nightmare began was also the day when another era
50:07
Speaker 1: in your own life began, because that, as you mentioned before,
50:10
Speaker 1: that pretty young policewoman became your wife. Yes, so rough
50:16
Speaker 1: and smooth on that day.
50:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, of course I didn't know
50:22
Speaker 2: who she was and never met her before. And then
50:26
Speaker 2: marriage went down and that was a problem, and I
50:31
Speaker 2: became the officer in char I took promotion and became
50:34
Speaker 2: the officer in charge of the Saint Kilda police station.
50:37
Speaker 2: Mine now wife worked at Saint Kilda and we struck
50:42
Speaker 2: up a relationship and here we are thirty something years later,
50:46
Speaker 2: still married and two children.
50:49
Speaker 1: And I think having a partner who is a policewoman
50:53
Speaker 1: does that make it easier to share the burdens of
50:55
Speaker 1: the job.
50:56
Speaker 2: Yes, most definitely, she had her own burdens at various times.
50:59
Speaker 2: You know, probably not as dramatic as might but I
51:03
Speaker 2: remember telling me when she first graduated, she's eighteen sent
51:07
Speaker 2: to domestics, and she said, with people who've been married
51:11
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty years, trying to tell them how to sort
51:13
Speaker 2: their lives out. And her first job was a car
51:18
Speaker 2: that had overturned and they just came across it all
51:20
Speaker 2: night shift by accident, and Blake's heads busted open and
51:26
Speaker 2: brain exposed and everything, and she had to climb into
51:29
Speaker 2: the vehicle with him and hold him together and try
51:34
Speaker 2: and comfort him. And the emma has came and did
51:37
Speaker 2: what they do, and she said, I was just covered
51:41
Speaker 2: in blood, this blank's blood. You know, that's just a
51:44
Speaker 2: couple of things. There's many things she's had to endure,
51:47
Speaker 2: you know, domestic violence victims, a whole gamut the police
51:53
Speaker 2: in general left to deal with.
51:55
Speaker 1: So you found that was sort of part of your
51:56
Speaker 1: relationship when you were getting together, you were able to
51:58
Speaker 1: discuss the issues in your policing.
52:00
Speaker 2: Yes, careers, it was.
52:03
Speaker 1: It was helpful talking your sleep there. I got the.
52:08
Speaker 2: Worst PTSD you can imagine, and I live with it
52:14
Speaker 2: to this day. You know, I've never sought professional help
52:17
Speaker 2: for it. Just last night I frightened owl out of
52:21
Speaker 2: her because I was punching the crap out of my
52:24
Speaker 2: pillow about four o'clock in the morning at home. Several
52:30
Speaker 2: times I dive out of bed to tackle Crimson, knock
52:34
Speaker 2: the bedside lamp and everything on the bedside table over
52:39
Speaker 2: and I end up on the floor and I wake
52:41
Speaker 2: up and I what am I doing here? She's terrified,
52:45
Speaker 2: and I understand this one night she's going to be
52:49
Speaker 2: on the end of one of those punches, you know,
52:51
Speaker 2: And I do that constantly. And I did seek assistance.
52:58
Speaker 2: I went to a side and she in more professional. Man,
53:03
Speaker 2: I said, you're as nutty as a fruitcake. And this
53:06
Speaker 2: was all bored on thanks to vic Pole, and you should,
53:12
Speaker 2: you know, seek compensation and what have you? Vic Pole
53:16
Speaker 2: sent me to the person who said, does nothing wrong
53:19
Speaker 2: with her, this is all crap and see you later.
53:24
Speaker 2: So I just lost interest and thought I can't be
53:27
Speaker 2: bothered pursuing this. And here I am, No, he is
53:31
Speaker 2: a fruitcake.
53:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, wonder you have dreams and things at least
53:36
Speaker 1: they're not as bad as Rodger Rogerson used to talk
53:39
Speaker 1: in his sleep. I know from a bloke who traveled
53:41
Speaker 1: with him in his last years, he'd have dreams where
53:44
Speaker 1: he'd say things like, it's all in the brief, We're fucked.
53:50
Speaker 1: So you haven't got those sort of memories.
53:52
Speaker 2: No, thank god.
53:54
Speaker 1: Anyway, it's been such a pleasure to shared these memories
53:56
Speaker 1: with you. But I think you're one of the good ones,
53:58
Speaker 1: and you came to a very, very dangerous era. No,
54:02
Speaker 1: it's no wonder you feel a little sore changed by
54:04
Speaker 1: Victor Police. And you've also your son's in the job
54:07
Speaker 1: now as well, so your family has done its public service.
54:11
Speaker 2: Oh, I think for sure. For sure, I hope he
54:14
Speaker 2: never has to experience some of the things that I did,
54:19
Speaker 2: although he's had his own share of traumatic events already.
54:24
Speaker 1: And he's got to work on the mustache a bit
54:25
Speaker 1: more as well. It's not it's not quite up to
54:27
Speaker 1: seventies robbery standards.
54:29
Speaker 2: It needs a bit of fertilizer.
54:31
Speaker 1: I think, Thanks your Tom, I appreciate it.
54:34
Speaker 2: Thank you.
54:40
Speaker 1: That was rod Porter, one of my favorite police officers.
54:44
Speaker 1: I feel like we could have gone on talking all day.
54:47
Speaker 1: There are so many more stories from those heady days,
54:50
Speaker 1: some of them still can't be told. If you've got
54:53
Speaker 1: a story that you'd like to tell on the podcast,
54:55
Speaker 1: please get in touch. You can send me an email
54:57
Speaker 1: to Adam Shander writer at gmail dot com. If you'd
55:01
Speaker 1: like to report a crime, call crime Stoppers on one
55:04
Speaker 1: eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. If you don't trust
55:08
Speaker 1: the cops or you get no action, you can always
55:10
Speaker 1: tell me. This has been Adam Shann for Real Crime.
55:13
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55:29
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