Latest / Story Magic / 133 - Narrative drive = characters who do shit

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133 - Narrative drive = characters who do shit · Story Magic

• 2:27
  Emily: Hey, writers.
• 2:28
  Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Rachel: I'm Rachel.
• 2:33
  Emily: And I'm Emily.
• 2:34
  Rachel: And today we're talking about narrative drive.
• 2:39
  Rachel: And that means that your characters are doing things.
• 2:42
  Rachel: And if you read the title of this episode, it means that your characters.
• 2:46
  Rachel: Characters who do shit, that is Characters who do Shit.
• 2:51
  Emily: Narrative drive is one of those.
• 2:52
  Emily: It's one of those buzzwords that always make me go a little bit cross eyed because I was like, I kind of get it, but I don't really get it.
• 2:59
  Emily: So we wanted to record this episode to, like, help you guys get a grasp of what is it?
• 3:04
  Emily: Why is it so important?
• 3:04
  Emily: Because it's critically important and like, how can you make sure that your book has it?
• 3:08
  Emily: So that's what we're going to talk about today.
• 3:12
  Rachel: Yeah, and this is like one of those pieces of craft that I, that I feel like is a hidden key to, like, if you understand what this is, it kind of unlocks a lot of the other craft advice that you hear as far as like character agency and choices and goals and, and all, like, all of those craft buzzwords are getting you closer to narrative drive.
• 3:38
  Rachel: We want narrative drive.
• 3:40
  Rachel: So when you really understand what this means and why we need it and why it's so important to the story that other stuff kind of falls into place so you understand why we need character choices and why we need goals and why we need agency and that.
• 3:53
  Rachel: So this is, I think, a high level thing that is really foundational to the success of a book, whether it's character driven or plot driven.
• 4:03
  Rachel: We need a narrative that is being driven forward.
• 4:05
  Rachel: We need a story that is being driven forward by the characters themselves.
• 4:10
  Emily: Yeah. Because if you think about it like we're picking up a book to see who the main character is, what they want.
• 4:18
  Emily: We want to care about what they want and we want to see what they're going to do to get it.
• 4:22
  Emily: Like, that's what we're.
• 4:23
  Emily: That's why we come to stories.
• 4:24
  Emily: If we don't have that, then it's
• 4:26
  Rachel: like, why are we here?
• 4:27
  Emily: Right?
• 4:27
  Emily: It's like you're flipping through pages just watching things happen, but they don't have meaning because they're just.
• 4:33
  Emily: They're happening to someone who's not active.
• 4:35
  Emily: Right.
• 4:35
  Emily: If your character's not active, they're just letting stuff happen to them and it's like, okay, but what's the point?
• 4:39
  Emily: Like, what are we gonna do about it?
• 4:41
  Emily: And I think that's where when stories Lack narrative drive.
• 4:46
  Emily: That's what it's lacking.
• 4:47
  Emily: It's lacking that.
• 4:48
  Emily: That push the character's desire to make things happen for themselves.
• 4:53
  Emily: Not just the desire, but the actual actions.
• 4:55
  Emily: Right.
• 4:55
  Emily: Like sometimes in first drafts, you know, when folks are newer writers or whatever, or even, even sometimes in my first drafts, I will be.
• 5:03
  Emily: I'll totally admit this.
• 5:04
  Emily: You'll have a character who wants something, but they're not actually doing anything to get it.
• 5:09
  Rachel: Yes.
• 5:10
  Emily: And. And like, usually this is happening when I'm exploring what the plot is and trying to figure out what the external events are.
• 5:14
  Emily: But then I have to go back through and I have to be like, we gotta do some shit in this scene.
• 5:18
  Emily: Like, what are you doing?
• 5:18
  Emily: What's your plan?
• 5:21
  Emily: And so I think, I think a lot of things tie into narrative drive.
• 5:24
  Emily: Right?
• 5:24
  Emily: What your character wants, the stakes of why they want it, like their plans and their goals, like, all of that pushes the story forward.
• 5:35
  Emily: And it's the key, I think, to engaging your reader.
• 5:39
  Rachel: Absolutely. I read, I was reading an academia based romance recently.
• 5:48
  Rachel: So if you're unfamiliar with that, it's basically like a romance that takes place at a school.
• 5:52
  Rachel: In this case it was a college.
• 5:53
  Rachel: So like, and you can have books set in academia that are not romances, just to be clear.
• 5:59
  Rachel: But this was a romance and it was set in college.
• 6:02
  Rachel: And we were going to class forever.
• 6:06
  Rachel: Like chapter after chapter, we're just in class.
• 6:09
  Rachel: And I was like, what, what are we doing?
• 6:11
  Rachel: Like, I'm just like yelling mentally yelling at my Kindle, like, why are we here?
• 6:14
  Rachel: Why am I here?
• 6:19
  Rachel: And it's, it's really frustrating as a reader because it's like you can feel the lack of a goal where all you're reading is like, and here's another day.
• 6:30
  Rachel: And here's another day.
• 6:31
  Rachel: And here's another day.
• 6:32
  Rachel: And on my side I'm like, why am I seeing your classes?
• 6:35
  Rachel: Like, are we doing anything?
• 6:37
  Rachel: Are we.
• 6:38
  Rachel: Are we trying to fall in love?
• 6:38
  Rachel: Are we not trying to fall in love?
• 6:42
  Rachel: Are we, Are we fighting a prophecy?
• 6:42
  Rachel: This was also a romantasy.
• 6:46
  Rachel: So I was like, are we avoiding the prophecy?
• 6:46
  Rachel: Are we trying to learn our skills?
• 6:49
  Rachel: Does it matter that you have powers or don't?
• 6:49
  Rachel: Like, everything just made me feel so ungrounded.
• 6:55
  Emily: Yeah.
• 6:56
  Rachel: And I really was struggling to care about anything.
• 7:00
  Rachel: And.
• 7:00
  Rachel: And it was like, I wanted to care, I wanted to know, I wanted to understand.
• 7:06
  Rachel: Why are we in class right now?
• 7:08
  Rachel: What am I learning and why is it important?
• 7:10
  Rachel: And what I was getting was like, come with me on another Day.
• 7:15
  Rachel: And.
• 7:15
  Rachel: And that's.
• 7:16
  Rachel: That's fine, but not for a book.
• 7:18
  Rachel: Like, yeah, well.
• 7:20
  Emily: And I think the importance is like, the key, right?
• 7:22
  Emily: Like, why is it important?
• 7:22
  Emily: Because if they're going to class and they're learning something, the reader might be like, well, it's important history.
• 7:29
  Emily: Or it's important.
• 7:30
  Emily: You're the reader, the author.
• 7:31
  Emily: It might be.
• 7:32
  Emily: It's important history.
• 7:33
  Emily: It's important context or whatever.
• 7:34
  Emily: But, like, that's not what the reader cares about.
• 7:35
  Emily: The reader's, like, why is it important to the character?
• 7:38
  Emily: Like, how is this information going to influence what they're going to do next?
• 7:43
  Emily: And if you don't have an answer to that question, then, like, that scene doesn't need to be there or you need to change it.
• 7:49
  Emily: Because frustration.
• 7:50
  Emily: Frustration is what happens.
• 7:52
  Emily: Right.
• 7:52
  Emily: When you don't have narrative drive.
• 7:55
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 7:55
  Rachel: So in, like, a different example, I read Nocticadia by Carrie Lake last fall and I really.
• 8:03
  Rachel: I really enjoyed the book.
• 8:04
  Rachel: So this is like a gothic horror romance with, like, a professor and student relationship.
• 8:10
  Rachel: But really the backdrop is that we're trying to uncover, like, why people are dying.
• 8:17
  Rachel: There are people who have died.
• 8:18
  Rachel: The character's mother is one of them, and she died from what looks like a parasite.
• 8:25
  Rachel: So she's at school trying to infiltrate the lab that is testing the parasites.
• 8:33
  Rachel: So, like, when we're going to class, she's like, after class, I'm going to go hide in the library so I can get in the lab.
• 8:40
  Rachel: You know, like, yeah, there's were at class because it's school.
• 8:44
  Rachel: But the background goal, like, what's driving the narrative is that I'm trying to uncover why, what this parasite is, how it's killing people.
• 8:52
  Rachel: Will it kill me?
• 8:52
  Rachel: Who's it going to kill next?
• 8:55
  Rachel: How's it getting everywhere?
• 8:55
  Rachel: Like, what's the mystery?
• 8:57
  Rachel: There was a very driven mystery in that book.
• 9:00
  Rachel: And then meanwhile, we have, like, romance with the professor because he's the one studying the parasites, et cetera.
• 9:05
  Rachel: It doesn't matter.
• 9:06
  Rachel: But my point being, like, every time we're doing school stuff, but it always comes back to, I need to find out more about the mystery.
• 9:17
  Rachel: How am I going to do that?
• 9:18
  Rachel: What does that look like?
• 9:20
  Rachel: So she has to go to class, but we're going to class for a reason.
• 9:23
  Rachel: We're in class to learn about the parasite, or we're in the lab.
• 9:27
  Rachel: We're in et cetera.
• 9:28
  Rachel: So, yeah, like, it was such a different vibe in a very similar setting.
• 9:33
  Rachel: Because even if you're at academia and the characters have requirements to go to school.
• 9:39
  Rachel: That doesn't.
• 9:40
  Rachel: That doesn't take away from their goals.
• 9:43
  Emily: Yeah.
• 9:44
  Rachel: That doesn't take away from what the plot is.
• 9:45
  Rachel: Like, they need to be woven together.
• 9:48
  Rachel: And that's just one example.
• 9:50
  Emily: But, yeah, I'm thinking of, like, this conversation is making me think of, like, the different ways that this can show up and, like, how people might be able to identify if they have a narrative drive issue or challenge with their story.
• 10:03
  Emily: And I think, for me, the top three things that are coming to mind are the day to day, right?
• 10:08
  Emily: Like, we're just going through.
• 10:09
  Emily: We're going to class, we're going to class again, you know, like, that kind of thing.
• 10:13
  Emily: Or we're, you know, going to work and then going to work again, and we're getting all the.
• 10:17
  Emily: All the.
• 10:17
  Emily: All these details and the character's not pursuing anything.
• 10:19
  Emily: I feel like that's one example.
• 10:21
  Emily: Another is when, like, crazy stuff is happening.
• 10:24
  Emily: Yeah, that's.
• 10:25
  Rachel: That's my favorite.
• 10:25
  Emily: People are getting attacked or people are.
• 10:27
  Rachel: There's an explosion.
• 10:29
  Emily: There's an explosion.
• 10:30
  Emily: Or, you know, someone's getting kidnapped, or, you know, like, all this crazy stuff is happening, which is great, right?
• 10:35
  Emily: Like, there's nothing wrong with that.
• 10:37
  Emily: I think that that's a tendency a lot of people have with first drafts and stuff is to just, like, throw stuff at your character.
• 10:43
  Emily: But the key is if your character's not.
• 10:44
  Emily: If that doesn't change anything about what your character's doing, or if it doesn't make them do something in response, right?
• 10:50
  Emily: Like, come up with a plan to, like, deal with whatever just happened.
• 10:54
  Emily: If they're just kind of sitting back and like, oh, I guess that happened to me.
• 10:57
  Emily: Right?
• 10:57
  Emily: That's a lack of narrative drive.
• 10:59
  Emily: We need to see them reacting to that stuff.
• 11:01
  Emily: Another place where I see this is when characters are kidnapp or, like, captured or imprisoned in some way.
• 11:07
  Emily: And that can be tricky, right?
• 11:08
  Emily: And we talk about this in our Agency episode, I think, where it feels like they have no agency because they're, you know, it's been taken away from them by other characters, but they should still have plans.
• 11:18
  Emily: What are they going to do now that they've been captured?
• 11:20
  Emily: What are they going to do now that they're in prison?
• 11:23
  Emily: Are they going to try to get out of prison?
• 11:23
  Emily: Are they going to try to escape?
• 11:26
  Emily: Are they going to try to, you know, schmooze somebody?
• 11:29
  Emily: Or, like, you know, like, what is their.
• 11:30
  Emily: What is their goal?
• 11:30
  Emily: Because if they just, like, again, if they just sit back and let that happen to them, that's going to be frustrating for readers.
• 11:36
  Emily: We want to see people react.
• 11:38
  Emily: We want to know why the day to day is important.
• 11:40
  Emily: We want to know how they're going to react and see them react in the face of conflicts.
• 11:44
  Emily: And we want to know when they are put in tight corners where it feels like they have no options, that they're going to create options for themselves.
• 11:52
  Emily: Right.
• 11:52
  Emily: Or they're.
• 11:53
  Emily: Or the way that they are reacting, if they are deciding to kind of give up, that that has consequences.
• 11:58
  Emily: Right.
• 11:58
  Emily: And that it's happening for a reason.
• 12:02
  Emily: Are there any other.
• 12:03
  Emily: Any others that you can think of?
• 12:05
  Rachel: I think those are great identifiers.
• 12:08
  Rachel: I think, like some of the questions I hear back when we're talking about this are sometimes like, well, my character, their flaws are that they don't do anything.
• 12:20
  Rachel: And I'm like, I don't buy it.
• 12:22
  Rachel: I don't buy it because, like, I think there is a character arc that you might want to tell of a character who is afraid to do things, but then you have to give them consequences that force them to do things.
• 12:36
  Rachel: Like they might not want to do things.
• 12:38
  Rachel: That is not an excuse for them doing nothing.
• 12:41
  Rachel: Yeah, because we have to choose a lot of time in day to day life, in contemporary whatever, we're just going about our days.
• 12:49
  Rachel: But especially in fantasy, like, you can't get away with doing nothing.
• 12:54
  Rachel: Most of the time it's boring as hell and it's also unrealistic.
• 12:58
  Rachel: So if that's the case, you need to up ramp up your consequences to a point where it forces your character to do something.
• 13:07
  Rachel: They cannot do nothing.
• 13:10
  Rachel: And then whatever they choose to do is still related to the character flaw.
• 13:15
  Rachel: So if the character flaw is that they're afraid to do things, you can still put them in a position where they have to do things, but they're acting from fear.
• 13:23
  Rachel: And what does that choice result in?
• 13:23
  Rachel: And then what are the consequences of that choice?
• 13:28
  Rachel: And how do we.
• 13:30
  Rachel: This is like a cycle.
• 13:32
  Rachel: And that was really helpful for me to learn when we first started studying together, because I think you had a better grasp on this than I did.
• 13:41
  Rachel: I was very much like, things happen to my characters and they do nothing.
• 13:46
  Rachel: And so the more that you talk to me about this and the more that I learned what this cycle is, it's a cycle of something happens.
• 13:54
  Rachel: The characters do something, there are consequences, something else happens, the characters do something, and the drive is in that character choice and the consequences of that choice.
• 14:06
  Rachel: And we start the cycle again, and that's the cause and effect trajectory.
• 14:11
  Rachel: Whenever Something happens.
• 14:13
  Rachel: There is an effect, there's a cause, there's an effect, there's a choice, there is a reaction, there is a consequence, there is another choice.
• 14:22
  Rachel: Like, there's.
• 14:24
  Rachel: What pushes the narrative forward is putting your character in positions where they must do something, and if they do nothing, give that choice consequences which then force them to do something.
• 14:37
  Rachel: Like, you can't.
• 14:38
  Rachel: I might buy that.
• 14:39
  Rachel: They do nothing once or twice.
• 14:42
  Emily: Yeah.
• 14:42
  Rachel: That is a limited amount of options.
• 14:45
  Rachel: You cannot have your character choose that every single time, because I will hate them.
• 14:48
  Rachel: And I think most people throw this book away.
• 14:52
  Rachel: No, I'm not.
• 14:54
  Rachel: Like, that's when you lose the drive.
• 14:57
  Rachel: If. If you are putting.
• 14:59
  Rachel: If you're like, no, my character really doesn't want to do anything.
• 15:02
  Rachel: They can only get away with that once, and the consequences got to be big.
• 15:07
  Rachel: And then I'll.
• 15:07
  Rachel: I'll buy it, but not more.
• 15:11
  Emily: I think a key part that this is getting to about narrative drive is that your character is shaping the plot.
• 15:17
  Emily: Right?
• 15:17
  Emily: Like, the choices that they're making have consequences, short term and long term in every single scene, all of the time.
• 15:24
  Emily: Every choice that they make, it needs to have consequences.
• 15:26
  Emily: So sometimes it can feel like a lack of narrative drive if a character's making choices, but the choices never really have consequences.
• 15:33
  Emily: They never really have to.
• 15:34
  Emily: They're not mistakes.
• 15:35
  Emily: They don't have to face anything bad because of what they've decided to do.
• 15:39
  Emily: And the plot doesn't really change.
• 15:40
  Emily: Right.
• 15:40
  Emily: If you plucked your character out of the story, like, you know, nothing would really change about it because they're not the one shaping what's happening.
• 15:48
  Emily: And so I think that consequences piece is something it took me a while to really see and understand, like, this idea.
• 15:55
  Emily: And it's powerful once you really get in there to ask in every scene, what is my character doing?
• 15:59
  Emily: What are the consequences of that?
• 15:59
  Emily: Like, how is this gonna come back to bite them?
• 16:03
  Emily: How is this shaping the world around them?
• 16:06
  Emily: And it can be a really engaging way to, like, add a lot of energy into your story and add a lot of, you know, plot and conflict and tension and everything.
• 16:14
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 16:16
  Rachel: I think, like, that was what unlocked pantsing for me.
• 16:21
  Rachel: When I.
• 16:23
  Rachel: When I plotted trying to do that, I feel like it always fell flat.
• 16:29
  Rachel: I struggled with the ideas, like, the.
• 16:31
  Rachel: I could never quite get the narrative drive right, or I didn't know quite how to do it.
• 16:36
  Rachel: But when.
• 16:37
  Rachel: When pantsing makes sense to me is when I always have that narrative drive.
• 16:41
  Rachel: Top of mind.
• 16:43
  Rachel: So we've talked about this before on the Podcast a little bit.
• 16:47
  Rachel: I don't give a fuck what plot events happen.
• 16:51
  Rachel: I don't.
• 16:52
  Rachel: What matters to me is the reaction and the consequence.
• 16:56
  Rachel: So for my process to sit and try to plot the plot events really trips me up because they don't matter as much to me.
• 17:04
  Rachel: What matters is that if I have event A happen, my character has a strong reaction to it.
• 17:13
  Rachel: They make a choice, and then we have consequences for that choice.
• 17:17
  Rachel: And then I can pants my way to plot B. Like, plot event B.
• 17:20
  Rachel: And when that happens, there is a large reaction to it, a choice and consequences.
• 17:26
  Rachel: And that's how my pantsing cycle continues.
• 17:30
  Rachel: It didn't work for me to try to pick what events and try to connect them.
• 17:35
  Rachel: But as long as you have the narrative drive and you're back in the back of your head, I think you will get to the point where your plot is cohesive and connected and driven by character choice.
• 17:46
  Rachel: So that. That's when.
• 17:47
  Rachel: When I say I don't care about the plot events, that's what I mean.
• 17:51
  Rachel: Because I'm setting.
• 17:54
  Rachel: Because I understand narrative drive.
• 17:56
  Rachel: I'm setting out a plot event that makes sense anyway.
• 17:59
  Emily: Yeah.
• 18:00
  Rachel: Because I've understand how the story flows forward.
• 18:03
  Rachel: And that made more sense to my brain than to try and plan it ahead of time.
• 18:07
  Rachel: Because then when I went to writing, like, didn't get.
• 18:11
  Rachel: I couldn't connect the dots, if that makes sense.
• 18:14
  Rachel: But we.
• 18:15
  Rachel: I mean, we have authors who we.
• 18:17
  Rachel: We plan all these events ahead of time, and it works really well because we have the narrative drive front of mind.
• 18:22
  Rachel: We were talking about this earlier today, Emily.
• 18:24
  Rachel: Like, it doesn't matter what your process is.
• 18:27
  Rachel: It matters that you understand the theory.
• 18:29
  Rachel: If you can understand what narrative drive means and apply it to your writing as you go.
• 18:35
  Rachel: Great.
• 18:36
  Emily: Yeah.
• 18:36
  Rachel: Or plan it.
• 18:37
  Rachel: Plan it ahead of time.
• 18:38
  Rachel: Great.
• 18:39
  Emily: It's funny talking about this right now, because this week, for my current project, which I'm calling Project Gold, I am, I've been in this, like, stuck in a rut moment at the midpoint for, like, two weeks now, where I kind of reached the midpoint and I was like, Ah, 2A is all wrong.
• 18:56
  Emily: And honestly, it was because there's no narrative drive like her.
• 18:59
  Emily: My main character's plans weren't clear.
• 19:02
  Emily: And, like, it wasn't clear what choices she was making.
• 19:04
  Emily: Like, I had all these plot events.
• 19:06
  Emily: You know, it's a survival thriller.
• 19:07
  Emily: So I was like, okay, I'm gonna throw all this stuff at them.
• 19:10
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 19:11
  Emily: But this always happens to me.
• 19:12
  Emily: I feel like now that this is like, My fourth book, I'm like, oh, this always happens.
• 19:17
  Emily: I have to put it in after the fact.
• 19:19
  Emily: Like, for me, I have to know what the plot events are in order to figure out how my character caused them.
• 19:27
  Emily: And I oftentimes will change them.
• 19:29
  Emily: The plot events will shift based on how I hone their arcs.
• 19:33
  Emily: But it's like, even as much as I plot, I just don't know my characters that well when I start out drafting because it's a first draft.
• 19:39
  Emily: And then I just.
• 19:40
  Emily: So I end up, like, leaning into this.
• 19:43
  Emily: You know, stuff's just happening.
• 19:44
  Emily: Cause I planned it in my outline, but, like, there's no connection.
• 19:48
  Emily: So I think that's why I rewrite so much.
• 19:50
  Emily: I've been giving that some thought and talking about it in the tenacious writing slack of.
• 19:54
  Emily: Like, I feel like this is my process.
• 19:56
  Emily: Like, I just have to kind of get the plot down and then I rewrite it completely.
• 20:01
  Emily: Because at that point, I'm like, okay, now I can see how I want my character to be the one driving all of this.
• 20:06
  Emily: And then I backfill it.
• 20:08
  Emily: So, you know, we're giving you guys a hard time right now.
• 20:10
  Emily: I feel like we're like
• 20:14
  Rachel: you if it's not there.
• 20:16
  Rachel: But I feel like.
• 20:18
  Emily: But it's really important to note, like, everybody comes at this very differently.
• 20:24
  Emily: And it just matters that the narrative drive is there in your final version, right?
• 20:26
  Emily: And that you understand what it is and you understand how to put it in your story.
• 20:31
  Emily: And, like, you know, for me, it comes in layers.
• 20:34
  Emily: And that's totally fine for Rachel.
• 20:35
  Emily: It's like a huge part of how she drafts because it's what's driving her decisions.
• 20:39
  Emily: Right?
• 20:39
  Emily: Fantastic.
• 20:40
  Rachel: And then, to be clear, I do rewrite a lot.
• 20:43
  Rachel: Like, let's not.
• 20:46
  Rachel: Let's not pretend that my plots are great.
• 20:49
  Emily: But it's just, like, it's where you're focusing, right?
• 20:51
  Emily: Like, I focus on the plot events first because I have to kind of get the bones of the story down.
• 20:55
  Emily: You're focusing on, like, who are these characters?
• 20:57
  Emily: How are they reacting to things, like getting to know them and all of that, which makes sense, right, From a pantsing standpoint.
• 21:02
  Emily: So, like, the point is, like, you're not supposed to get this perfectly right in your first draft.
• 21:07
  Emily: You're not gonna.
• 21:08
  Emily: And that's totally fine.
• 21:09
  Emily: But the important thing is, like, knowing that and then being able to go into your revision, being like, this needs to drive.
• 21:15
  Emily: Like, that needs to drive your revisions.
• 21:18
  Emily: It has to be the framework from which you're making all of your decisions.
• 21:21
  Emily: You can't just, like, go in at a line level and start moving stuff around.
• 21:24
  Emily: You can't, like, come at your next draft and be like, oh, world building first.
• 21:28
  Emily: Like, that's just not.
• 21:29
  Emily: That's not going to work if the narrative drive's not there.
• 21:32
  Emily: So, like, I think my biggest takeaway would be if you have a draft and you're working on revisions, if you haven't thought about the narrative drive or you don't feel solid about the narrative drive, that is where I would recommend focusing first, because that's.
• 21:45
  Emily: That's going to be right.
• 21:46
  Emily: The.
• 21:46
  Emily: The foundation, the framework within which all the other decisions are made.
• 21:50
  Rachel: Yes.
• 21:51
  Rachel: When I finished the book that I shared with you, and it's.
• 21:57
  Rachel: It's.
• 21:57
  Rachel: It's not sometimes, you know, like, we call it their first books, but, like, those books never came out.
• 22:02
  Rachel: And then, like, Blood in My Water is like, my first book, but that was, like, the fourth book I'd ever written.
• 22:06
  Rachel: So, like, anyway, the book I had written when I was.
• 22:09
  Rachel: When I was a young lass in early writing days 10 years ago, and I wrote this book called Power Struggle, I finished writing it.
• 22:19
  Rachel: Finishing drafts has never been my problem.
• 22:22
  Rachel: Lots of drafts.
• 22:24
  Rachel: But then at the time I went back and I read it and I was like, it's wrong, but I don't know how.
• 22:31
  Rachel: And all that I knew how to do was to make the words sound better.
• 22:35
  Rachel: So I line edited the hell out of that draft.
• 22:37
  Rachel: And I would send it to my friends and they would be like, oh, it's great.
• 22:40
  Rachel: And I sent it to you, and you were the first person who came back and was like, none of this works.
• 22:44
  Rachel: And I was like, no, but it's so good, though.
• 22:48
  Emily: What are her plans?
• 22:49
  Rachel: What are her plans?
• 22:49
  Rachel: She has none.
• 22:52
  Rachel: Um, so, like, that is a. I think narrative drive is a great evaluation tool because nowadays I write my drafts and they're messy and terrible, et cetera.
• 23:04
  Rachel: But when I go back to read them, I'm able to see the gaps in the narrative drive because I understand what narrative drive is.
• 23:10
  Rachel: So I can go back and I can be like, okay, in the debate beat, this plan makes no sense.
• 23:15
  Rachel: Or this.
• 23:16
  Rachel: What we've.
• 23:17
  Rachel: What we're dealing with from the Catalysts is all over the place in 2A.
• 23:21
  Rachel: These plans make no sense.
• 23:23
  Rachel: The plot doesn't result in anything.
• 23:24
  Rachel: We're just kind of bouncing around to different.
• 23:27
  Rachel: There's a warehouse over here and there's a gun smuggling over here.
• 23:31
  Rachel: And, like, none of this is connected in any way.
• 23:34
  Rachel: Um, that's okay. So I. I completely agree with you.
• 23:37
  Rachel: I think the evaluating narrative drive after the fact is where it's going to be most helpful nowadays.
• 23:45
  Rachel: It's incorporated into my writing process, but it's not.
• 23:49
  Rachel: I don't get it Right.
• 23:50
  Rachel: And it's a tool that I can use now that I've been doing this for a very long time.
• 23:56
  Rachel: But, like, I didn't know what that was until I wrote four other books.
• 24:01
  Rachel: Five other books, because I got one on, I got one finished manuscript.
• 24:05
  Rachel: That's just chilling.
• 24:06
  Rachel: We'll go back to her eventually.
• 24:09
  Emily: Just hanging out.
• 24:11
  Rachel: See again, I saw my finishing drafts is not my problem.
• 24:15
  Rachel: Finish a good Julian.
• 24:17
  Emily: It's my problem.
• 24:18
  Emily: It's definitely my problem.
• 24:19
  Rachel: You can have some of my drafts
• 24:20
  Emily: and you can my Achilles heel, some
• 24:23
  Rachel: of my nano drafts.
• 24:25
  Rachel: And I think your brain will explode reading them.
• 24:30
  Emily: Throw it against the wall.
• 24:31
  Emily: There's no narrative drive.
• 24:33
  Emily: What are we doing?
• 24:34
  Rachel: Why are there vampires here?
• 24:34
  Rachel: What's happening?
• 24:39
  Rachel: I don't know.
• 24:39
  Rachel: I just put them in.
• 24:40
  Rachel: It was fun at the time.
• 24:44
  Emily: So, okay, so for people who are listening to this going, maybe this is me.
• 24:50
  Emily: What do we.
• 24:50
  Emily: What do we got?
• 24:51
  Emily: What do we got for actionable steps?
• 24:54
  Rachel: Here's the thing.
• 24:55
  Rachel: Like we said earlier, I think narrative drive is a foundational idea that is connected to a lot of different other craft ideas.
• 25:05
  Rachel: So if you're like, I don't think I have narrative drive in my story.
• 25:09
  Rachel: I don't think it's as strong as it could be.
• 25:12
  Rachel: We need to talk about goals.
• 25:14
  Rachel: So we need to know what does the character want in this book externally, what are they pursuing?
• 25:20
  Rachel: What are they trying to achieve or accomplish throughout the book?
• 25:24
  Rachel: But then also plans.
• 25:26
  Rachel: So we have a goal.
• 25:27
  Rachel: How are we going to execute that goal in every single scene?
• 25:30
  Rachel: How does this relate back to the big goal that we have?
• 25:34
  Rachel: What plan are we trying to achieve?
• 25:37
  Rachel: Now we have episodes about both of these things.
• 25:40
  Rachel: We talk about agency in, I don't know, like, episode seven.
• 25:45
  Rachel: I don't know.
• 25:46
  Rachel: Some of the earlier ones go back and look.
• 25:47
  Rachel: And then we have a whole episode on pivot point plans, which is episode 14.
• 25:53
  Rachel: Then we talk about scene goals.
• 25:55
  Rachel: So our characters are pursuing a goal in every scene, or, you know, we're figuring out what that looks like and that ties back to the big goal.
• 26:04
  Rachel: But on top of that, our characters are making choices.
• 26:07
  Rachel: So whatever conflict is happening, I guess that's now.
• 26:10
  Rachel: Now we got to talk about conflict.
• 26:11
  Rachel: There's got to be conflict, but there's.
• 26:15
  Rachel: We start a scene, we want Something in the pursuit of that want, in the pursuit of that goal, it gets interrupted by conflict.
• 26:22
  Rachel: The conflict is large enough to present a choice.
• 26:26
  Rachel: We've got to do something because of what just happened.
• 26:29
  Rachel: That is when choice comes in, character choice.
• 26:33
  Rachel: So the charact, the choices that your characters make tie back to their flaws and what are the flawed choices that they have?
• 26:39
  Rachel: And what are the.
• 26:42
  Rachel: What's the internal obstacle, belief driving them?
• 26:46
  Rachel: I think we have an episode about that somewhere.
• 26:50
  Rachel: Flawed, flawed people are more interesting.
• 26:52
  Rachel: That's episode three.
• 26:56
  Rachel: So they make this choice.
• 26:58
  Rachel: And because we're on an arc of change, because it's a flawed choice, it's.
• 27:02
  Rachel: It has negative consequences.
• 27:04
  Rachel: This choice is not right.
• 27:06
  Rachel: So things continue to go wrong.
• 27:09
  Rachel: So it doesn't pan out like we expected.
• 27:11
  Rachel: There are consequences and that sets up the events of the next scene.
• 27:16
  Rachel: So this cycle continues.
• 27:18
  Rachel: Yeah, that is really what drive is.
• 27:21
  Rachel: But the pieces that you need to know are all interconnected in there.
• 27:24
  Rachel: So if you're like, I don't know what to do, I'd probably go back to character goals.
• 27:29
  Rachel: What are our goals?
• 27:29
  Rachel: How are we pursuing them?
• 27:31
  Rachel: And then I'd go back to character choice.
• 27:33
  Rachel: Are, are your characters making choices?
• 27:36
  Rachel: Are they flawed choices?
• 27:36
  Rachel: Are there consequences to those choices?
• 27:41
  Emily: Do.
• 27:42
  Rachel: Does bad things happen?
• 27:43
  Rachel: Do things that we don't expect happen because of that choice?
• 27:48
  Rachel: That bites them in the butt.
• 27:50
  Rachel: That is like negative for them.
• 27:53
  Rachel: And then that puts us back in the position where they need to make more choices on what to do.
• 28:00
  Emily: I think if you are an early writer and like, this is you, you haven't done this before.
• 28:06
  Emily: You've, you know, you're working on your first book, whether it's finished or not.
• 28:10
  Emily: I think that this is one of the places where readers can be very, very helpful, even if they're not writers, because you can give them your book and you can ask them, what do you think my character wants?
• 28:22
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 28:23
  Emily: And do you feel like they are trying to get it?
• 28:27
  Emily: And your reader will be able to tell you, I feel like narrative drive is one of those few things that readers can be like, this bitch is doing nothing.
• 28:34
  Emily: Yes.
• 28:35
  Emily: What are we doing here?
• 28:37
  Emily: She says she wants this, but she's not actually trying to get it.
• 28:40
  Emily: Right.
• 28:40
  Emily: And then.
• 28:40
  Emily: Or we're just going through her day to day life like it's not even clear what she wants.
• 28:44
  Emily: Right.
• 28:44
  Emily: Like readers will be able to pick up on that.
• 28:47
  Emily: So, you know, find someone you trust to be, you know, gentle and kind with you and then ask them very pointed questions.
• 28:55
  Emily: What do you think my character Wants how?
• 28:57
  Emily: What do you think their plan is to get it?
• 28:59
  Emily: And does it feel like they're pursuing that plan?
• 29:01
  Emily: And does it feel like their choices are shaping the plot?
• 29:04
  Emily: If you ask those four questions, I think that just having another brain will help you be able to see, like, where the drive is working and where it's not.
• 29:12
  Emily: If you're, you know, if this is very new for you.
• 29:15
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 29:16
  Rachel: Um, and because I am the last thing I would add as far as tools, because I am on the pantser side, doing a reverse outline once the draft is completed is very helpful for me to see those holes because I will go through each of my scenes.
• 29:33
  Rachel: I will look at the goal, conflict, choice and consequence in every scene, and I put it on a spreadsheet and I leave the boxes blank where there are none.
• 29:44
  Rachel: So then I can see, okay, in this scene, there was no goal, there was no choice, and there wasn't.
• 29:50
  Rachel: There were no consequences.
• 29:51
  Rachel: And that gives me a loose roadmap to be like, okay, here are the holes.
• 29:56
  Rachel: Do I need to go fill them in or do I need to rewrite something to make some.
• 30:01
  Rachel: To, like, create a stronger trajectory?
• 30:05
  Rachel: Because sometimes it's like, there was a goal, I just forgot to put it there.
• 30:08
  Emily: Yeah.
• 30:08
  Rachel: And it's not on the page.
• 30:09
  Rachel: And, like, that's where the reader can get confused sometimes.
• 30:13
  Rachel: But other times I'll have things happening and I'm like, oh, we lost.
• 30:17
  Rachel: We lost the plot a little bit.
• 30:19
  Rachel: Things are just happening.
• 30:20
  Rachel: I gotta go fix that.
• 30:23
  Rachel: So I. I love that this is something you can review yourself, but it's so helpful to have other people look at it and answer those questions for you.
• 30:33
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 30:35
  Rachel: Cool.
• 30:35
  Emily: Alrighty.
• 30:36
  Emily: You guys got this?
• 30:39
  Emily: Yeah. Be gentle with yourselves, especially if this is your first time with this concept.
• 30:43
  Emily: But I think our intensity in this episode is just so important.
• 30:49
  Emily: It's just so important.
• 30:50
  Rachel: Yes, exactly.
• 30:51
  Emily: And I think, yeah, it's.
• 30:53
  Emily: It's one of those very common things that slips through the cracks at the.
• 30:58
  Emily: At the beginning of a writing journey.
• 31:00
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 31:01
  Emily: Alrighty.
• 31:02
  Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 31:08
  Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 31:12
  Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 31:18
  Emily: Link in the show notes.
• 31:19
  Emily: We'll see you there.
• 31:20
  Rachel: Bye.
• 31:21
  Emily: Bye.