Latest / The Media Odyssey / AI SLOP, GATEKEEPERS, AND THE KID'S MEDIA CRISIS
Transcript
- Jamie Shapiro: (00:00) Welcome back to The Media Odyssey. I'm Jamie Shapiro, Evan's kid, and this week we're talking about the kids' media landscape. So he thought it was only fitting to bring his kid along. We talked with Andy Donner from Common Sense Media who Evan partnered with to do a report on the state of the kids content industry. We also talked to Sara DeWitt from PBS Kids who gave us more of an insight on why people are saying the industry is totally fucked and what we do to fix it. So lock in. Evan Shapiro: Welcome to the Media Odyssey Podcast. That is Jamie Shapiro. Jamie Shapiro: And that is Evan Shapiro. And today we're going to be talking about the kid's content business. You may or may not know that Evan partnered with Common Sense Media to run a report on the kids media landscape. So we're gonna be delving into some key points from that. But before we do, I'm gonna throw to you guys to introduce yourself and what you do. Andy, do you want to start? Andy Donner: I'll start only alphabetically. Yeah. A is before S. So first, thank you, Evan, thank you, Jamie, for having us. Thank you for working with us on the report. Fantastic. So hopefully many of you out there know who Common Sense Media is. But if you don't, very quickly, we're the largest nonprofit reviewer of kid's media in the world. We fundamentally do three things, and it's got a nice hook to it: we rate, we educate, and we advocate to protect and prepare kids in this very strange moment of apps, algorithms, and AI. So, what we like to say is we are not anti-tech, we're not anti-industry, we are pro-kid. And so what I do, and a slight plug on this because it's through partnerships that we do a lot of our great work. We are actually, I'm very much pro-industry because we love to work with the streamers, cable, VOD, satellite, et cetera. That is how we get our ratings and reviews out into the world to help us accomplish our mission. So thank you. Thanks for having us. Sara DeWitt: Hi everyone, I'm Sara DeWitt. I'm from PBS Kids. Also really excited to be here. Thanks so much for inviting us. PBS Kids is the public broadcaster in the United States. We focus on kids two to eight. The fact that we are just US focused is going to be important in this conversation, I think. But we distribute, working with our incredible production partners, we distribute episodes, shorts, games, podcasts. On our own platforms alone, we have over 15 million digital users per month, again, US only. And then continue to have another two million on broadcast because kids are still watching broadcast television. And then obviously, we partner with a lot of other distribution partners so that we are on YouTube, YouTube TV, Hulu, the Prime channels. I mean, PBS Kids is really everywhere kids are is our goal, and to be free without commercials. Jamie Shapiro: Amazing. And earlier today, we heard from Evan who mentioned that the state of the kids media universe, according to the folks we've talked to, is quote, totally fucked, which is also happens to be a great song. Look it up. So we'd love for you all to define what the baseline problem is. Why are people saying that things are totally fucked? Andy Donner: I'll jump in on this. So I think if we look at this as a market like any other market, there's a supply side and a demand side. So the great news, which I think we're gonna come back to, is that the demand side is not fucked. The demand side is actually extremely strong. There's never been a moment in time where there's actually a greater thirst for great, high quality research back kids media that's out there. There's more devices, there's more interest, there's more infrastructure, there's more broadband than ever that's out there, and we could, we'll talk about it here. Never before have families and kids raised their hand and said, We want great content. So that's there and the infrastructure's there. What is fucked, and that's gonna become, I guess, the meme of this radio. I guess we can do it on radio, we can drop F-bombs on radio, is it is the supply side. And we're gonna talk a lot about this, which is the basically the breakdown of the economic model on the production side of the production houses, the streaming platforms to produce great content and to pay the proper commissions to the great work that those who craft great content is. So fundamentally I think what we're gonna talk about, I'll hand it over to Sara, is this is a supply side challenge. Is there an easy answer? Absolutely not, but we'll examine it from a variety of angles here. Sara DeWitt: Yeah, we really have felt the bottom drop out of the kids market. I mean it's, what's happening is we had a beautiful few years where everybody was investing in kids. It felt like this like incredible moment for creators, lots of great content happening. It's good for the whole ecosystem. I mean, even if that was competitive to PBS kids, that's awesome because we need a good thriving content provider environment. But what happened was the streamers figured out that kids' content doesn't drive subscribers, it reduces churn. And that wasn't enough for them. And so really a lot of folks have fallen back to IP that's kind of tried and true, and that's really their only kids offering. It's fair to say that the public media space is kind of, has been kind of bolstering the whole industry. If you look at the BBC, ABC Australia, a lot, and PBS as well, we're the only ones who've really continued consistently to commission new content. You may have heard that PBS was defunded last year. Jamie Shapiro: Boo. Sara DeWitt: Is anyone aware of that? Yes. So it means that we're we're challenged in this respect as well. Public media was kind of keeping a lot of the industry going. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, so I'll quantify it a little bit from a numbers perspective. You're right, demand has actually increased twofold amongst parents for high quality content from sources that they trust. And when you think about it, it makes sense. Seventy percent of the America's parents of kids under the age of eighteen are millennials or Gen Z. Seventy percent. And they just see the world through a different lens. They were raised to be more thoughtful about the content that they're watching. And so they demand better and higher quality, safe content for their kids at a higher rate than any other parent group, including my own. Jamie Shapiro: Yeah, I was watching garbage as a kid thanks to you. Evan Shapiro: Mostly garbage I produced. And so the the demand is high. At the same exact time over the same period, the number of series orders from the ecosystem has gone down twenty five percent. Driven almost exclusively by the streamers. The streamers have a tendency to do this. They come in, kids' content is one area, documentaries was another. Remember when streamers were buying premium documentaries? Remember when streamers were buying premium independent film? The second they sense a tick in the algorithm, they yank the rug out from it and they stop ordering it. So they create a demand, they create a market, and then they decimate it when it doesn't suit their needs anymore. The problem with the retention thought there is you're not building long-term lifetime value loyalty. The reason why it works as a retention tool and it that hasn't sensed yet that the danger to them is kids are, kids tend to be a little, you know, simple. They'll watch the same episode over and over and over. Sara DeWitt: I'll challenge you on that, actually. Evan Shapiro: Well, okay, I would love to hear that. But that's that's the thought that people have, and they see it in the numbers. But the problem is that the algorithm problem that they were talking about earlier, which is well, okay, so what's next? Can I find a new title? And once that kid tips over 11, the taste needs change. Suddenly they're watching Stranger Things and K-pop Demon Hunters and all these shows that aren't necessarily designed specifically for kids. And if you're not keeping them from two to five and the family isn't co-viewing, you're losing a loyalty base and they're gonna churn out. Last year the churn, the total churn for the streaming industry was 89%. They kept 11% net new subscribers of the 175 million subscribers they generated last year. Part of the problem is the lack of kids content. And I'll do one more thing, which is the COPPA laws really decimated, and we talked about this with Animage on stage earlier today. That took the two two billion dollars out of the marketplace that was funding high quality kids, primarily on YouTube, but not exclusively on YouTube. A lot of it comes from I produce it for somewhere else, and then I put it up on YouTube. So those things have created an existential crisis in kids' content that is really decimating the supply chain because people can't afford to produce it anymore. Sorry. Sara DeWitt: No, I'm just I was gonna challenge just a little bit on the kids watching the same thing over and over again because people say this a lot, and it is very true for super young kids, like two and three-year-olds, that they'll watch the same episodes. But I think what we're seeing here is by a lot of these streamers focusing so much on a single IP or just the same library, assuming that's gonna keep kids, you're seeing this churn and where kids are going is YouTube because there's so much new stuff happening there. And I don't think, I don't think they've put that together that part of this is driving this just very few titles happening on streamers is part of what's driving this big movie. Evan Shapiro: Yeah the the parents said for kids under, I think it was seven eighty eight percent of those kids prefer YouTube to any other outlet to watch content. Again, you're feed you're feeding the competition. You're, it's almost, there was a time when mainstream media sold all of its best content to Netflix and then they woke up one day and Netflix had destroyed their business. Netflix is doing the same thing, which is they're allowing all these kids to leak to YouTube and they're like, Well, all the families. Jamie Shapiro: Well, and they're stealing YouTube's model. So clearly they see that it's working. But let's double click on, to steal his vernacular, let's double click on the co viewing paradox because you guys mentioned that demand is there. And I'm curious, how many people in this room watch video content with their kids? So for listeners, that's a good portion of the room. So co-viewing is still very much a thing. And I'm curious to know how how you think that's impacting the content that's being produced or lack thereof. Andy Donner: Co-viewing, the behavior, the desire is still there, but practically speaking, what you're up against is a fragmented house where there's a screen in every single room. Actually, applaud for Toy Story Five. I had a preview of it the other day. They do a magical job of actually kind of demonstrating this reality that we're in and how hard it is to actually get the family to all agree. I mean, I'm not gonna bring us back to like the 1950s or even you know the great, you know, must-watch TV, you know, of my generation. That was magical. But there's still this need and this desire to bring the family closer together. I was reflecting on this as for this panel and thinking about like two two things that transpired in my- I have a 21-year-old, a 21-year-old daughter. And when she was really young, we watched an amazing show on HBO called Classical Baby, which I just think is, one of the great animations of all time. And HBO, it'd be great if you got back into kids programming, but that's a little little plug on that one there. Most recently, the most few years ago, she's like, Dad, I have a great new show I want to watch with you. I'm like, Great. And we sit down to watch it, and she's like 15 years old and it's Euphoria. And and you're like, okay, wow. And it was like we're like two episodes in. I'm like, Whoa, like I got some thick skin and this is really bothersome to me. And I should have turned to Common Sense Media before watching that. Plug for Common Sense Media. Wasn't working there at the time. And to me, this gets to one of the core issues that's is at stake here is that kids are aging up and media is aging down. And what happens is when these platforms are no longer having dedicated kids area, the content is hitting the four quadrant. And when that occurs, kids are watching, you know, Heated Rivalry right now, which is a great cultural phenomenon, but you're getting like teenage, young teenage kids watching this. It's not terribly appropriate for that. My daughter actually asked me if I wanted to watch that with her. I'm like, I'm gonna pass on that one. So just a couple thoughts on it, I'll hand it over to Sara. Sara DeWitt: Yeah, just the co-viewing phenomenon, first of all, it's really good for kids. I mean, there's a lot, there's well-documented research that if a child is watching something with a parent present or even another sibling present, the learning gains from whatever it is are going to be greater. So that is just an incredible thing to know. And it works asynchronously too. Coming out of, so if you talk about it after they watched it, that still really helps with with what they learn. But coming out of COVID, one of my very favorite stats I saw was a survey of parents saying what is something that you don't want to lose from all this time that you had together? And the number one thing was watching movies with my kids. There was something really magical that parents found during that time that they continued and that has affected our strategy. Evan Shapiro: Movie night came back. Sara DeWitt: Movie night came back, and I think movie night is still here. And so there may be like big fragmentation during the day. Parents tell us all the time, we are the number one trusted media brand for kids. And parents say, I don't need to watch with my kids because I know they're safe on PBS Kids. But they will tune in later if we do a movie special. They'll watch sit down and watch together. And I know also parents are listening. I can't tell you how many parents write in to us, to Fred Rogers Productions, and say, Daniel Tiger's mom has taught me so much about parenting. You know, so we we know that parents are in the room and they're hearing it and they are really taking something from it too. Jamie Shapiro: Well, and to talk about churn also, you know, people don't want to have five different subscriptions. They're really only down to their two priority ones, and then the third constantly is on a loop. So, you know, if there is a platform that can cater to the whole family, you're more likely to retain that audience because it can grow with the family, especially as you were saying, with millennial and Gen Z parents who are likely only subscribing to two, if not one, at this point. So I want to get into, unless you had anything to add, Evan. Great, perfect. Love that. I love silencing him. So how have creators and legacy brands worked independently to bypass traditional network gatekeepers and find profitability? We've talked about YouTube. How is that filling this void? Sara DeWitt: Well, I think what we, as a legacy broadcaster, but who also is really trying to think about like how do we continue to really brand build beyond just our own platforms? We are seeing the ways that we can really grow audiences on YouTube. And that is a great discoverability opportunity for us. It's a way for us also to try to expand our brand across the board. So, you know, when we were defunded last year, back to the US only. Jamie Shapiro: Boo. Sara DeWitt: Thank you, Jamie. I'm gonna take you with me everywhere. Back to the defunding piece, when that happened, we were, you know, because we're US only, we were recognizing that that was really harming us on YouTube because we don't have ads and we were only launching our content in the US. It meant that the algorithm was not favoring us. So we started a partnership with PBSD. I mean, we already had a partnership with them, but around YouTube, where they, with the home video rights, had the ability to launch those assets globally at the same time that we launched them domestically, and in some cases could put could put ads on internationally. And what that meant is we saw a huge uptick in how our content was being served within the United States. We saw tremendous growth just in the US. Evan Shapiro: That's really important point. Sara DeWitt: 40% growth on YouTube. Yeah. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, it's a really important point, which is the international distribution doesn't just get you new audiences in new countries. It teaches the algorithm about the demand for this content, and therefore it lifts all boats. I'm curious, how, do you mind me asking, how are you mechanically doing your YouTube and social video distribution? Are you doing it all in-house? I know PBSD is handling a decent part of that, but that is oftentimes you know partnership deals. Yeah. How are you how are you making it happen? Sara DeWitt: It's it's a combination. It's working with some of the the studios that then help us kind of think about how we can do compilations and that kind of work. There's a new relationship with Fremantle around Arthur, really trying to take that brand, which has been around a long time, has huge audience support, to really take that international, do some work with it on YouTube to help like boost that brand across the board. Andy Donner: Yeah, if I could just jump in do you follow up on that? Just go to the sort of the g the gatekeeper concept and that being eroded and the direct to family distribution, which in some ways when you look at it, you're like that's great, you know, creators can go right to families. But I'm gonna slightly get in my soapbox for a second here because there's actually some really difficult consequences that's occurred here. When there's no gatekeepers, when there's when there's no or very loose standards and practices divisions that are out there, when there's not proper developmental science, clinical psychology, and the proper craft that's looking at children as curious, like mold, like minds to be molded. And when the content is not created in a way that is really thinking about them as impressionable young people who are looking to that content for how the world works, what are the value systems, what narratives are out there. And when those gatekeepers are not there, then children are just have access to this endless loop of content. Sometimes it's great, but even then it happens, then there's an autoplay to the next content, the next content. And part of the concern that we have at common sense media and just generally in the industry is when the gatekeepers are removed, children who are at their most vulnerable are being fed content without any control. So here's an example out there. Parents, we love when we're standing in the line to pick up prescriptions that there's an FDA because they have tested the drugs. When you open your faucet and there's water that comes out, you're pretty happy there's an EPA. What's happening right now with YouTube, and YouTube is by far the most powerful force, think about how many mentions of YouTube that occurred just today. It is the defining platform of this moment in time, and it's almost a utility. Yet the checks and balances are not there. The S&P is not there. And to me, this is a very, very serious issue that's out in the industry. Evan Shapiro: And it should be noted that the co-viewing was, I think it was higher when we when we got the data back, the co-viewing was higher than we anticipated it being. The lowest platform for co-viewing is YouTube. It's half of a lot of the other platforms out there. I don't know why that is. I think maybe perhaps when you're waiting in line with your kid, the kid's got the phone and they're on YouTube and you can't control literally everything or to your point, something gets fed to them that they weren't ready. So it is, there is this conundrum and this you know, weird opposing ideas happening at the same time. Sara DeWitt: You were talking about there being a real problem with the business model, that there isn't a way really to support content, high quality content creation for kids on YouTube. I would say it's not just the business model, it's the, I mean the business model is not just bad for business, the business model is also bad for kids. Because the way it is constructed is keep kids watching as long as possible, keep them like constantly engaged. We know that there's a lot of AI slop that is getting put in front of kids. And you know, you would think, yes, that's bad, and we should be trying to like push against that. YouTube Kids is supposed to be able to keep that away, but we know that's getting through the cracks. The American Academy of Pediatrics recently said like it isn't just that it's not good for kids. I mean, it's actually harming them, it's teaching them things that are wrong, even when it looks like it's nocuous. So, like, an example is there's like a very realistic video of a flamingo jumping off of a diving board. As adults, we know a flamingo doesn't really do that, but it's kind of fun to see. It's sort of cool. A kid's gonna love looking at this. For a kid who's never seen a flamingo before, they now have a completely wrong idea of what a flamingo can do. And so even if it seems innocuous, it actually can be really harmful. Jamie Shapiro: So, what are some things, not to put you on the spot, but to put you on the spot, and there are a lot of YouTube people here today, what could YouTube actually be doing to mitigate some of these, you know, AI slop. What are some of the safeguards that should be put in place in your opinion? Andy Donner: I mean I'll jump in and I case that in by the way like I mean YouTube, we've partnered with YouTube at Common Sense Media. We have deep respect. And the respect comes from actually just like the potency and power and the responsibility that YouTube has. So I'll just kind of put that out there. And so I'll talk about one partnership we've engaged with. It's been more on the YouTube education side, but it's an indication of the desire, the will and the vision that this organization does and does have. And so they've a product called Player for Education. It's not perfect, but it's an approach in the classroom where upwards of 90% of classrooms use YouTube videos for teaching. That's fantastic. But the core problem is one of discovery and also autoplay and the ads at the end. So they remove the autoplay, they removed the ads. Yay. But still, if you're a teacher with the gazillions of videos that are out there, it takes a lot of time to find the right video that's aligned with your curricula, that is at the right pedagogy, the right standards, etc. So they approached us meaning YouTube and we curated, hand curated along with our engineers, and we built a library, a STEM library, an SCL library for those educators of very high quality, diverse content that was aligned with the curricula of those of those educators. I hold that up as an example. Now you may be thinking what is exactly the business model of that. Therein lies part of the challenge. We're not going to solve it with our eight minutes and 14 seconds left. It is very vexing on the business model, but there's the will, there's the engineering talent, and certainly there's a need both in the classroom and in the living room for YouTube to approach this. Sara DeWitt: And I just want to point out like what you all did was human curation. And this is this is part of the problem. That you know, algorithms are great and can do a lot when you're talking about very young children, you've got to have the human there really looking at things and checking to make sure the quality is there, checking to make sure that this is age appropriate and developmentally appropriate. Evan Shapiro: It's interesting, you know, YouTube the and I've interviewed Pedro Pino on stage where he said we don't make content. That's not what we do. I've also heard executives at YouTube say we never put our thumbs on the scale either. And then they buy the Oscars, for I would imagine a shit ton of money. That's a technical term. And and so, you know, they chose to buy the NFL Sunday ticket, right? And curate NFL Sunday ticket as a paid product. So I think one answer, and I wrote about this in the report, is to take kids, YouTube kids more seriously. We had Animage on stage earlier today. Gregory threw out a stat, 15% of usage, 15% of content on YouTube is kids' content. It's almost as much as music. It's two percent of monetization. So they should be taking the monetization question, encouraging new partners in the program, creating better economics there, but then human curation and a real treating of YouTube kids. It's the number one kids channel in the world. It should be run like a network. It should not be run as an algorithm because the algorithm fails us at times. And YouTube needs to take its kids' business, and it's responsibility to kids more seriously. I think if they did, A, they'd make more money doing it, a lot more money doing it. But B, the reward would be a better attitude towards YouTube by parents and educators and other folks out there in the world. Jamie Shapiro: Which we know is important based on a previous panel about KPI, key passion index. People are are voting for their content based on their passion. Which kind of brings me to the next point. I'm gonna let my Gen Z show for a second and say that there are a lot of people that maybe are wondering, okay, well we've talked about the ethics, we've talked about the morals, but let's talk about the bottom line. And for those corporate guys out there, I would say that Evan Shapiro: and gals. Jamie Shapiro: Eh guys. I would say that this isn't just a retention tool, it's also about boosting your bottom line. There is demand, there is, there's money being left on the table. And, you know, I would call out the the Netflix and the Amazon and the paramounts of the world and say, you know, you've stopped commissioning this content and it's detrimental to the population, but also you're leaving money on the table. How would you incentivize, both monetarily and ethically, these legacy companies and non-legacy companies to start creating that content again? Andy Donner: Whoa. I, the answer is, the return has to be there. I mean ultimately because they are for profit organizations and I'd like to believe to go back to the original point about the demand being there. And there is a jump ball, to use a basketball analogy, out there. So if it's, if YouTube's not gonna step up and you have what? Netflix, let's say Disney, Netflix, Amazon, and whatever this whatever the merger of Paramount, CBS, HBO, Evan Shapiro: Nepo Bros. Andy Donner: Yes, that whatever that's gonna be called. I'd really have to believe that with the demand and the dollars that are out there and with all the ancillary ways to monetize IP, that one of those organizations has an opportunity to become the de facto platform to become the kids that that that parents will pay for. And not only as a retention tool, but as an acquisition tool. And I don't want to be naive because we know all the history of that of creating a walled garden for kids and it doesn't work. But if it's done properly and at scale, I truly have to believe that there is an enormous business to be had by one of those organizations stepping up. And, you know, you look in terms of a brand perspective, Amazon is very likely could be the the brand that steps up. All those pieces are there. They, you know, the the living room, the e-commerce, the connection to the family, the Prime, could be there. I'd like to believe that with Paramount, with the property of Nickelodeon, historically what HBO is able to do, notwithstanding the Sesame experience, I'd like to believe that combined entity when they're sitting down and looking at their vision, that that's something I'm a little skeptical of, but I'd love to see that happen. Netflix, we don't know. So I think between those three, one has an opportunity to step up. Sara DeWitt: And I think there are ways that, there are ways to partner, there are ways to help more high-quality content get through. Again, PBSD works closely with us with those home video rights. There's a PBS Kids subscription channel on Amazon that it then supports PBS Kids, that puts money back into it. And there are people paying for that channel. And Amazon is recognizing that as high quality content that parents trust. There are more opportunities like that to recognize where there is really high quality content and find ways to. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. And I think something else, and you know, I have this responsibility in the industry to tell people things that are staring them in the face and they're not looking at there's a shit ton of advertising money that has entered the ecosystem. Netflix, when they started not commissioning kids, wasn't taking advertising. Amazon, when they stopped not commissioning kids' content, wasn't taking advertising. Most of these services started as ad free which was bonkers to begin with. There's so much money that wants to be deployed in kids' content as contextual advertising for family and kids' brands, it's sitting on the sidelines now because it doesn't have enough places to go. So that's thing number one. The thing number two, and I'm not gonna necessarily, this isn't aimed at the streamers as much as it is at the producers, and I have a follow up question for you on this, which is, we had Toonstar on stage earlier today, and they are using their own proprietary tech called Ink and Pixel to produce at scale really high quality animated human written, human performed content but their turnaround is a week right they can they can get feedback from the consumers and put it up there they're also driving down the costs to the point where their show is profitable just on programmatic ad sales on YouTube and now they're turning around and they said on stage they're gonna sell it to a streamer. So I do feel like it's a responsibility of the producers themselves to find new ways, especially in animated content, to drive down the costs and expediate, expedite the the turnaround time, get content out there more quickly. Are you looking at AI as part of your production continuum? Is it something you're embracing or something that you're testing out? Sara DeWitt: Well, I think yeah, the public media legacy is always to look at every new technology and think about like how can we how can we be using that in a way that is beneficial for kids in how they use it, but also in how we're telling stories about it and then how we're using it for production. And you can think, like there are lots of disruptions that have happened in animation. If you think about Maya, you know, like that already really changed the way that artists work with it. So the Toonstar example is a really good one and it's one to watch. It's also is adult animation and they are getting their advertising on big YouTube, not kids' YouTube. Evan Shapiro: Good point. Sara DeWitt: But I think that what we really need to do, I kind of feel like we need public media to be looking at AI and to be thinking about how to do this in a way that is going to be responsible. Where are the places where you really need a human to make sure that things are developmentally appropriate? Where are the places where there is an opportunity for this technology to help expediate, but also expedite? Excuse me. I repeated your. Jamie Shapiro: Never follow his lead. Sara DeWitt: You're gonna cut that out, right? But okay, to expedite, but also to really think about where can we learn from this? What are what are things that we can put out there as best practices for the industry for how we would use this in a responsible way for kids. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, and and if not new, if not public media, who? Now fifty-four percent of kids' content is being produced worldwide by public media. And I think if we're gonna find a responsible way to use AI in production, of kids' content in particular, it's gonna come from the public service sector, I think we're out of time. Jamie Shapiro: We're out of time. Evan Shapiro: That went too fast. What did you do? Did you speed up time? Jamie Shapiro: No, I just cut you off. And then Evan Shapiro: Don't give Marion any ideas. Jamie Shapiro: I love Marion. I wish she was the only host of this podcast. Evan Shapiro: Thank you very much. Jamie Shapiro: Thanks, everybody. Evan Shapiro: Yes, it was great having you. Sara DeWitt: Thank you so much. Evan Shapiro: Thank you very much. This has been the Media Odyssey podcast at the Media Universe Summit. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.