Latest / Voyage Clinics Podcast / Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Explained | The Future of Psychiatry with Dr. Reid Robison

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Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Explained | The Future of Psychiatry with Dr. Reid Robison · Voyage Clinics Podcast

0:10
Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Boys Cliness Podcast. I'm your host,
0:12
Speaker 1: doctor John Sanders, familely physician, and today I have read
0:16
Speaker 1: Robinson with me. He's a physician and a psychiatrist, and
0:20
Speaker 1: read welcome to the podcast.
0:21
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me read.
0:23
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about your education and your
0:25
Speaker 1: journey toward medicine.
0:26
Speaker 3: So I went to BYU nearby as an undergrad and
0:31
Speaker 3: changed my major a bunch, and then they came up
0:34
Speaker 3: with neuroscience while I was an undergrad, So I jumped
0:37
Speaker 3: in in their first class because I knew I had
0:41
Speaker 3: a curiosity about the brain and geeked out a bit
0:44
Speaker 3: on science leading up to that. So I got into
0:48
Speaker 3: the sciences, even did some mice research some brain stuff
0:52
Speaker 3: while there, and then went to med school at the
0:54
Speaker 3: University of Utah, stuck around for psychiatry and stayed on
0:58
Speaker 3: faculty for a while there doing research studies. Okay, yeah,
1:02
Speaker 3: studying new medicines for mental health conditions, trying to find
1:06
Speaker 3: better options because we all know that while we have
1:09
Speaker 3: some options, they all too often fall short for too
1:13
Speaker 3: many patients. So many individuals are suffering, and we do
1:17
Speaker 3: need some some better tools. And so that's uh, that's
1:21
Speaker 3: where I'm coming from.
1:22
Speaker 1: I would love to start with that because I think
1:25
Speaker 1: we it's underwhelming what the response I think for both
1:29
Speaker 1: patients and for me as a family doc, I treat
1:31
Speaker 1: some basic anxiety, depression and ptsd s and all these things,
1:36
Speaker 1: and it's underwhelming the responsiveness to some of these medicines.
1:39
Speaker 1: Can we can we just go into like where are
1:41
Speaker 1: we at state of the union of current like psychiatry,
1:44
Speaker 1: and how are we helping people move forward from a
1:47
Speaker 1: medicine standpoint from maybe maybe the therapy space, and where
1:51
Speaker 1: are our wins? Where are our losses? Where's our shortcomings?
1:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a lot.
1:56
Speaker 3: It's a good question though, because I think we're at
1:59
Speaker 3: a very interesting point in time in psychiatry, like the
2:02
Speaker 3: beginning of a new chapter.
2:04
Speaker 2: I would say.
2:04
Speaker 3: Because we have these tools, thankfully like SSRISE, prosacs, all
2:10
Speaker 3: offt et cetera, that help maybe one in three individuals
2:17
Speaker 3: respond really well to them, and I find them to
2:21
Speaker 3: be very useful tools to have for a time, like
2:23
Speaker 3: especially if someone is in a state of depression or
2:26
Speaker 3: anxiety where therapy hasn't cut it. But they're also they
2:31
Speaker 3: come with side effects like any medicine. And having to
2:34
Speaker 3: take a daily pill with a certain percent risk of
2:37
Speaker 3: side effects or a certain trade off for some people
2:40
Speaker 3: is not ideal.
2:41
Speaker 2: And so also the way they work is.
2:43
Speaker 3: Kind of in an emotional numbing or blunting way out
2:46
Speaker 3: of necessity to bridge the gap to hopefully do some
2:51
Speaker 3: deeper work or not need those things and get to
2:53
Speaker 3: reconnect more fully with one's life. So that brings us
2:56
Speaker 3: to what's next. And this interesting point we're at is
3:00
Speaker 3: what some call interventional psychiatry, where you have ketamine being
3:04
Speaker 3: used while not formally approved for depression, good evidence and
3:10
Speaker 3: has helped a lot of people respond more quickly at
3:13
Speaker 3: least as a temporary measure. And then Spravado that came
3:16
Speaker 3: along in twenty nineteen as a nasal spray es ketamine
3:20
Speaker 3: for those who don't respond to traditional antidepressants. We have
3:24
Speaker 3: the first rapid acting medicine approved. And so this is
3:28
Speaker 3: like a new chapter where we also have TMS transcranial
3:32
Speaker 3: magnetic stimulation that's not a daily pill. It's like a
3:36
Speaker 3: big magnet that you come in for and get a
3:39
Speaker 3: treatment with once a day for like the better part
3:42
Speaker 3: of a month, and it's really flexing the neuroplasticity pathways
3:47
Speaker 3: in a positive direction repeatedly, and doesn't work overnight, and
3:53
Speaker 3: isn't the easiest thing to act, to do and access.
3:55
Speaker 3: But it's new and it's not and it does help
4:00
Speaker 3: a fair number of people. And then we may also
4:03
Speaker 3: talk about psychedelic medicine and what's on the horizon, but
4:07
Speaker 3: we're entering this era of other options that aren't a
4:10
Speaker 3: daily pill, like taking a medicine for more quick relief,
4:15
Speaker 3: and maybe even some other benefits in terms of getting
4:19
Speaker 3: out the root cause or bringing things to the surface
4:22
Speaker 3: that need to be addressed to get unstuck.
4:24
Speaker 1: I love how you couched the SSRI movement, like I
4:28
Speaker 1: think they came out in like nineteen fifties, and and
4:31
Speaker 1: really I love how you explain them because this is
4:35
Speaker 1: how I explain them too. But a lot of my
4:37
Speaker 1: colleagues don't. They just put them on them and say,
4:40
Speaker 1: good luck, Well we've got Yeah, it's what we've got,
4:42
Speaker 1: and you're gonna probably be on this rest of your life.
4:45
Speaker 1: I love the idea that it's just kind of a
4:47
Speaker 1: band aid for a minute to kind of stop some
4:49
Speaker 1: of the i'd say bleeding, but stop some of the
4:52
Speaker 1: harder things that are going on emotionally with you, and
4:54
Speaker 1: then as those things get worked on, hopefully with psychotherapy,
4:58
Speaker 1: with better life style, better social situations, then maybe we're
5:04
Speaker 1: kind of going to come off of that medicine, especially
5:07
Speaker 1: the SSRIs at some point, Whereas the academy is a
5:10
Speaker 1: little different, right because because it like actually grows part
5:14
Speaker 1: of your brain and spikes some BDNF and some neuroplasticity
5:17
Speaker 1: and provides a kind of a pathway for maybe maybe
5:22
Speaker 1: some of the talk therapy to kind of start working
5:23
Speaker 1: a little bit. Can you speak to just the talk
5:25
Speaker 1: therapy with regard to ketymene.
5:27
Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, So ketamine is what got me into this,
5:32
Speaker 3: this whole field of psychedelic medicine. I was at the
5:35
Speaker 3: University of Utah on faculty doing studies, and along came
5:40
Speaker 3: the study of it was Johnson and Johnson saying, do
5:42
Speaker 3: you want to be a site for our study of
5:45
Speaker 3: IVY Academy for depression? And I sat with so many
5:49
Speaker 3: people as they got their standard infusion then of zero
5:53
Speaker 3: point five miligrams or kilogram I view over forty minutes,
5:55
Speaker 3: and you had to ask them questions as part of
5:58
Speaker 3: the study about the experience and it was fascinating what
6:01
Speaker 3: they were going through, and some shed tears and it
6:04
Speaker 3: almost seemed cathartic for individuals, and to see in real
6:09
Speaker 3: time some relief was really It inspired some hope and curiosity.
6:15
Speaker 3: So I started working with ketemine, studying it more, and
6:19
Speaker 3: then it opened the door to these other things. I
6:22
Speaker 3: started doing psilocybin studies and other psychedelics that I'm mostly
6:26
Speaker 3: focused on now helping bring those to market.
6:29
Speaker 1: That is so cool. What is it about the kedymene?
6:31
Speaker 1: I mean, we'll stay on the keademy for a minute,
6:33
Speaker 1: but I really want to dive into some of those
6:34
Speaker 1: other spaces with you. What is it about the ketymene
6:38
Speaker 1: that creates access better I don't know, better access points
6:45
Speaker 1: or availability to moving some things for the for maybe
6:48
Speaker 1: the talk therapy space.
6:49
Speaker 3: Thank you because I forgot to answer your original question.
6:52
Speaker 3: I'm realizing so good thing we have a podcast host.
6:56
Speaker 3: I had to bring us back on track. But so
7:00
Speaker 3: Ketamine I see working a few different ways. So to
7:04
Speaker 3: put a pin in a few of them, There's like
7:06
Speaker 3: one that people don't talk about as much, that ketymine
7:10
Speaker 3: turns off what's called a lateral hebenular burst mode. There's
7:13
Speaker 3: this little part of the brain we don't give much attention,
7:16
Speaker 3: the habenula, And there's a Nature paper maybe five years
7:19
Speaker 3: ago where they show ketamine kind of flips a switch
7:23
Speaker 3: and the burst mode is a depressed, stressed out state.
7:28
Speaker 3: So it's almost It gave me a potential explanation neuroscientifically
7:32
Speaker 3: at least for what is this cloud lifting?
7:34
Speaker 2: What is this relief part of.
7:36
Speaker 3: What lets people come up for air and do the work.
7:39
Speaker 3: And then you have, like you mentioned, these neuroplasticity pathways
7:44
Speaker 3: that are activated for a time, at least for ketymine.
7:47
Speaker 3: Some would estimate it's a couple of days with for psilocybin,
7:52
Speaker 3: labs that try and estimate this from mouse models and
7:54
Speaker 3: things might.
7:55
Speaker 2: Say a couple of weeks.
7:57
Speaker 3: So you have a window, but it's tighter where the
8:00
Speaker 3: brain becomes more malleable, where you can, hopefully with the
8:03
Speaker 3: right kind of intention and therapy and approach, kind of
8:08
Speaker 3: shift some maladaptive patterns. It could be your depressive patterns,
8:12
Speaker 3: it could be your anxious loops, it could be addictive
8:15
Speaker 3: or maladaptive behaviors that aren't serving you, and then you
8:19
Speaker 3: can work on those in this malleable state and hopefully
8:23
Speaker 3: they can stick.
8:25
Speaker 1: Does the m tour BDNF pathway, like, how does that
8:29
Speaker 1: play into the mix.
8:31
Speaker 3: It's part of the cascade that turns on this window
8:34
Speaker 3: of opportunity, if you will. And it's a complicated one.
8:37
Speaker 3: I just kind of from a big picture see it
8:39
Speaker 3: as like sprinkling a little brief miracle grow on the
8:43
Speaker 3: brain and you get an opportunity to use it. And interestingly,
8:48
Speaker 3: kenymine was not studied initially that study I did did
8:50
Speaker 3: not have psychotherapy with it. It was studied as a
8:53
Speaker 3: medicine spravado.
8:54
Speaker 2: Same thing.
8:55
Speaker 3: Adding therapy is kind of the next frontier of we
8:59
Speaker 3: know it's an opportunity, we know there's neuroplasticity opening up,
9:03
Speaker 3: and what more can we do, especially because we know
9:06
Speaker 3: that ketamine isn't always durable and some people might get
9:11
Speaker 3: months of relief, but some people days or weeks.
9:13
Speaker 2: Do you have.
9:14
Speaker 1: A form of talk therapy that you like the best
9:18
Speaker 1: after post psychedelics.
9:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really interesting, kind of multifaceted question that
9:26
Speaker 3: I've pondered for a long time because and I've landed
9:31
Speaker 3: essentially on the answer. My opinion is that it depends
9:35
Speaker 3: on what condition, of course, like if you're treating eating disorders,
9:40
Speaker 3: for example, I work with a lot of eating disorders.
9:42
Speaker 3: In fact, and the therapy protocols we put into studies of
9:46
Speaker 3: say ketemine is just psychotherapy there or psychedelics there are
9:51
Speaker 3: different and we might even have more sessions of dosing sessions,
9:56
Speaker 3: if you will, because especially for those who have been
9:59
Speaker 3: chronically affected by a condition, those patterns could be really
10:04
Speaker 3: deeply entrenched and it might take some more sessions, some
10:08
Speaker 3: even more intensive psychotherapy than like on the other end
10:12
Speaker 3: of the spectrum, the early psilocybin studies looked at end
10:17
Speaker 3: of life anxiety, like the anxiety one gets when they're
10:20
Speaker 3: faced with like a terminal cancer diagnosis. And you know,
10:25
Speaker 3: eighty percent of those with the psilocybin dose single dose
10:28
Speaker 3: had substantial relief and a mystical experience and all that,
10:32
Speaker 3: but it was it was not the same deeply entrenched
10:36
Speaker 3: pattern to something to say anorexia or treatments depression, just
10:41
Speaker 3: to kind of point out that it depends on the condition,
10:44
Speaker 3: the chronicity. And then but then even with something like depression,
10:50
Speaker 3: even looking at the same time course, I think my
10:53
Speaker 3: opinion is you could layer on a lot of different
10:56
Speaker 3: therapies and.
10:57
Speaker 2: Get good results.
10:58
Speaker 3: So the best I've landed on working with a ton
11:02
Speaker 3: of practitioners helping them do their ketamine therapy work is
11:08
Speaker 3: leveraging the therapy tools they're good at in the snouroplasticity
11:12
Speaker 3: window that make the most sense for the.
11:13
Speaker 1: Patient depending on what the patient is having. Eating disorders
11:17
Speaker 1: are among the hardest to treat. I understand, like, they're
11:20
Speaker 1: very entrenched and very difficult many times years and years
11:23
Speaker 1: and years of therapy and still having a hard time
11:25
Speaker 1: moving the needle. It where's depression again, sometimes very entrenched,
11:30
Speaker 1: and trauma and things like that. So so what I'm
11:34
Speaker 1: hearing is just the modality that the therapist is reasonably
11:37
Speaker 1: good at, and maybe that's better applied to the current scenario.
11:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the current state of the psychedelic medicine kind
11:47
Speaker 3: of movement and pathway toward approval is that the therapy
11:52
Speaker 3: has been somewhat de emphasized or at least more generalized
12:00
Speaker 3: in preparation for getting in front of the FDA that
12:03
Speaker 3: doesn't look at doesn't approve therapies right typically, So it's
12:08
Speaker 3: getting kind of a standard supportive therapeutic approach there that
12:13
Speaker 3: could be rolled out if something's approved in clinics in
12:17
Speaker 3: a widespread way. Because interestingly, on these medicines, more so
12:22
Speaker 3: I think than with ketamine, the healing happens from within
12:28
Speaker 3: for the most part, and the people the therapists are
12:31
Speaker 3: there mostly holding space as this like opens up the
12:35
Speaker 3: window and brings things up to the surface, and so
12:38
Speaker 3: we create the safety so someone can do the work themselves.
12:42
Speaker 1: I want to go there because you're right, ketymine kind
12:45
Speaker 1: of kind of like it's hard to do work under
12:48
Speaker 1: the influence of ketemy. You're kind of sleeping, and you
12:50
Speaker 1: kind of a lot of a lot of folks are
12:51
Speaker 1: kind of out of it, and you don't want to
12:52
Speaker 1: disrupt that as much, whereas in maybe some of these
12:56
Speaker 1: other modalities, there's there's I want to I want to
12:59
Speaker 1: poke into that a little bit because there's a deep
13:02
Speaker 1: connection and healing space that that that is available through
13:05
Speaker 1: some of these other modalities. Can we speak to them,
13:07
Speaker 1: Let's go there, let's Yeah. So we're talking about psychedelic
13:10
Speaker 1: therapies and some of the research that's going on, and
13:13
Speaker 1: you're right on the cutting edge of some of that
13:14
Speaker 1: research right now here in orm Utah.
13:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's exciting.
13:18
Speaker 3: It's it's exciting what is coming down the pipeline, if
13:22
Speaker 3: you will.
13:23
Speaker 1: So Psilocybin, are you allowed to talk about this? Yeah?
13:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, because and because I'm I'm basically a research site
13:32
Speaker 3: that does the studies for these companies like MAPS has
13:37
Speaker 3: been trying to get MDMA approved for PTSD, compass and
13:40
Speaker 3: USNA psilocybin for depression, and then other things. Mind Mad
13:45
Speaker 3: they change their name recently to definium mine at LSD
13:50
Speaker 3: for anxiety, and we did those studies with them, and
13:53
Speaker 3: now for depression, and uh, there's also a number of others,
13:58
Speaker 3: like we're doing a PGD study with a psychedelic. We
14:01
Speaker 3: have an anxiety study with another psychedelic that people wouldn't
14:05
Speaker 3: have recognized as much.
14:08
Speaker 2: And these are in phase three.
14:12
Speaker 3: Most of them Phase two or three, which is the
14:14
Speaker 3: last phase before you submitted the FDA for approval. So Psilocybin,
14:18
Speaker 3: as an example, has just wrapped up its phase three
14:22
Speaker 3: studies for depression and preparing to submit later this year
14:27
Speaker 3: is the plan to the FDA. So we may even
14:30
Speaker 3: have if approved and timelines go well, as early as
14:35
Speaker 3: next year. Psilocybin prescribable for depression like Spervado came out
14:41
Speaker 3: for depression under certain parameters.
14:44
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Can we speak to why some of these
14:48
Speaker 1: have a deeper true healing potential rather than rather than
14:52
Speaker 1: a blunting band aid approach with the SSRIs and things
14:56
Speaker 1: like that, certcrohibitors, Why do these create such profound experiences
15:02
Speaker 1: of healing and potential, like deeper level of movement in
15:07
Speaker 1: our emotional space, in our spiritual spaces, in those spaces
15:10
Speaker 1: that trauma Like, there's lots of things that are maybe
15:14
Speaker 1: under the hood that we don't even recognize that maybe.
15:16
Speaker 2: Need to do a little bit.
15:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't realize how much. Like they say, you've
15:21
Speaker 3: got to feel it to heal it.
15:22
Speaker 2: In a way.
15:23
Speaker 3: Now, it's a bit ton in tongue and cheek, but
15:26
Speaker 3: I think the simple over simple answer is that psychiatry
15:29
Speaker 3: is finally catching up on the innate healing potential of
15:32
Speaker 3: the human body. Like you've known for a while as
15:35
Speaker 3: a family doc that if you get a cut, the
15:38
Speaker 3: body's going to take care of it right. You might
15:41
Speaker 3: need to assist with some supports, But you know, I
15:44
Speaker 3: think this approach we've done too often for too long
15:48
Speaker 3: in psychiatry. It just kind of throwing these kind of
15:53
Speaker 3: band aids with consequences at it for long term is
15:58
Speaker 3: finally kind of getting shaken up. And as these new
16:02
Speaker 3: modalities present where they give the person the opportunity to
16:08
Speaker 3: go inward where you may have been in this default
16:12
Speaker 3: stressed out state and just unable to face your trauma
16:15
Speaker 3: because it was too system overload, unable to face that,
16:20
Speaker 3: like that pit of despair of depression, and then you
16:23
Speaker 3: get a tool like this and and the right support,
16:27
Speaker 3: and it can melt away some of those defenses bring
16:29
Speaker 3: up the emotions to the surface, interestingly by another serotonin
16:34
Speaker 3: receptor five HD two A instead of like the SSRIs
16:37
Speaker 3: working in a different way on five HT one for example.
16:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, the five h T two A receptor is amazing.
16:46
Speaker 1: I've done a deep dive it recently.
16:49
Speaker 2: Some people get it tattooed on them.
16:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't blame them. There's there's there's neat stuff there,
16:56
Speaker 1: and I think can we speak to like the dissolving
17:02
Speaker 1: of the ego that happens there and maybe the default
17:06
Speaker 1: mode network silencing and some of those internal dialogues that
17:11
Speaker 1: some people have hard time shutting them off and they're
17:12
Speaker 1: driving anxiety or they're driving depression. But but and I'd
17:17
Speaker 1: love to hear some of your studies that are going
17:19
Speaker 1: on in these spaces. But why why is it that
17:21
Speaker 1: these these medicines or I'm gonna call them medicines, but
17:24
Speaker 1: they're you know, psychedelic therapeutic modality, why they they can
17:29
Speaker 1: kind of help us silence those spaces?
17:31
Speaker 2: Is there?
17:31
Speaker 1: I mean, we can get a little neuroscience therity to it.
17:35
Speaker 2: For a moment.
17:36
Speaker 3: And I do like this kind of prevailing theory in
17:40
Speaker 3: the Psychedelic therapy space by Robin CARRT.
17:44
Speaker 2: Harris and colleagues.
17:46
Speaker 3: She was at Imperial College at the time, but he
17:48
Speaker 3: wrote the entropic Brain Theory based which essentially is based
17:54
Speaker 3: on this older free energy theory, talking about how hush
18:00
Speaker 3: we are predicted wired as prediction machines, Like we go
18:04
Speaker 3: about the world and taking all these sensory inputs and
18:06
Speaker 3: automatically we're adapting to the world our best prediction of
18:11
Speaker 3: like don't step in the road with traffic because it'll hurt,
18:14
Speaker 3: or like don't touch that thing again, and we get
18:19
Speaker 3: shaped and all these autopilot ways out of necessity by
18:22
Speaker 3: these magnificent machines were occupying as that is the human body,
18:28
Speaker 3: but that can also get us into these stuck automatic ruts,
18:33
Speaker 3: you know, the maladaptive patterns that shape and so along
18:36
Speaker 3: comes a psychedelic. That one analogy use is that it
18:42
Speaker 3: kind of heats up these these rigid prediction structures, so
18:46
Speaker 3: they can be shaped during that window of opportunity, reshaped,
18:51
Speaker 3: and then as the brain cools and your patterns kind
18:54
Speaker 3: of take shape again as a window closes, then hopefully
18:57
Speaker 3: you put in new kind of more adaptive ones and
19:01
Speaker 3: positive for your life.
19:03
Speaker 1: And acted expansive and healthy, maybe a little healthier, less
19:08
Speaker 1: clenched down on rigid thinking.
19:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, So as as you take a psychedelic, and as
19:14
Speaker 3: the one of the ways it works is kind of
19:18
Speaker 3: toning down what you mentioned, the default mode network, that
19:22
Speaker 3: kind of egoic center of the brain, if you will,
19:25
Speaker 3: that is just kind of you know, autopilot, not allowing as.
19:29
Speaker 2: Much of the creative expression or new firing in this.
19:35
Speaker 3: And then as that melts away, new connections can form
19:38
Speaker 3: new insights. And because of this serotonergic like medicine effect
19:46
Speaker 3: and that release of serotonin, some even have like a
19:49
Speaker 3: mystical experience or connect with their own spirituality in a
19:53
Speaker 3: deep way, and it's interestingly bringing back spirituality in a
19:59
Speaker 3: much need way into mental health that was kind of
20:01
Speaker 3: thrown out with the bathwater in kind of freud eras
20:05
Speaker 3: and things. But finally we're bringing back into the discussion
20:10
Speaker 3: because it's an important part of you know, so many
20:13
Speaker 3: people's lives.
20:15
Speaker 1: I love how you said in your previous comment, how
20:20
Speaker 1: the body can heal itself. We just have to give
20:22
Speaker 1: it the pathways to kind of accomplish that. I remember
20:26
Speaker 1: in residency, I had a patient in Jacksonville, Florida, and
20:30
Speaker 1: she had diabetes really bad, and she ended up with
20:33
Speaker 1: necrotizing fasciatis. It's a really bad infection of the fascia of.
20:37
Speaker 2: Flesh feeding on the street.
20:40
Speaker 1: That's all right, that's right. And she got really sick,
20:43
Speaker 1: ended up in the hospital for a long time. She
20:46
Speaker 1: had a giant wound on her abdomen. It was twenty
20:51
Speaker 1: centimeters deep. It was just going to make a psychiatrist ill,
20:55
Speaker 1: but button g's out, yeah, and he's got But it
21:00
Speaker 1: was very wide, very deep, and profound. It was profound.
21:04
Speaker 1: I tried, she didn't have insurance. I tried to get her.
21:08
Speaker 1: The surgeons had done all of their charity work for
21:10
Speaker 1: the month. It was the end of the month, and
21:13
Speaker 1: every evidently those surgery surgery groups have a quota, they
21:18
Speaker 1: cap it out. They're like, oh, sorry, we've all done
21:20
Speaker 1: our pro bono work for the month. And and I
21:23
Speaker 1: begged and pleaded, and they said they followed up with her,
21:26
Speaker 1: and they said she can heal this. And I said,
21:29
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? She's type two diabetes, she's overweight,
21:32
Speaker 1: she's unhealthy. This will kill her. And they said, doctor Sanders,
21:37
Speaker 1: you young pop ya. I was a resident right and
21:40
Speaker 1: I was in my you know, post grad probably second
21:45
Speaker 1: year in my residency, and I was mad. I remember
21:49
Speaker 1: getting really upset at him, and I was like, you
21:51
Speaker 1: guys a bunch of chirks. But over the next several
21:56
Speaker 1: several months, with wet to dry dressing, changes to briding
22:00
Speaker 1: with went to dry dressing chains. Sometimes we had dacons
22:02
Speaker 1: because it got in fact with some pseudomonis, because that's
22:04
Speaker 1: what happens. But we healed that sucker. She healed that sucker,
22:10
Speaker 1: and it was amazing. I was every time I saw her,
22:14
Speaker 1: it would get a little smaller, a little smaller, and
22:16
Speaker 1: a little less deep, a little less deep, and it
22:19
Speaker 1: was probably I don't know. It was probus sixteen inches
22:22
Speaker 1: by twelve inches by twenty inches deep. It was deep.
22:27
Speaker 3: You just stop motion on that looks like superhero stuff
22:30
Speaker 3: and it's healing it.
22:31
Speaker 2: It was amazing.
22:32
Speaker 1: And and I think of that giant crevice and giant
22:36
Speaker 1: defect and you know, even and the flesh eating pass here.
22:40
Speaker 1: But there are psychiatric things that are equally as devastating
22:44
Speaker 1: and difficult to deal with. But how incredible the body
22:49
Speaker 1: is that it can close down those holes and fill
22:52
Speaker 1: them up with with live, beautiful tissue and and heal
22:56
Speaker 1: that super cool?
22:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is there is, because I've I've it play
23:00
Speaker 3: out time and time again, this innate or interhaling intelligence,
23:04
Speaker 3: if you will, in the body. And but the challenge is,
23:09
Speaker 3: you know, kind of activating that or letting it do
23:12
Speaker 3: its thing and creating the right conditions for healing.
23:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, turns out it's the five HD two A.
23:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's certainly an incredibly useful button to hit
23:26
Speaker 3: for so many of these conditions to help create that space.
23:31
Speaker 1: Can you speak to like in Ketamine, I think that
23:33
Speaker 1: they've done a bunch of data and science on you know,
23:35
Speaker 1: six sessions or roughly successions with therapy tends to be
23:39
Speaker 1: a lasting change and some lasting healing to some of
23:43
Speaker 1: the depression PTSD space. Can you speak to some of
23:46
Speaker 1: these other modalities and what you're seeing, Let's let's take
23:48
Speaker 1: them apart. Let's maybe start with zylo cybin, if you will.
23:51
Speaker 3: So Psilocybin mostly studied for depression. The typical protocol is
23:57
Speaker 3: two doses. It's been a floored one, two, three, and
24:02
Speaker 3: they might be separated by a couple of weeks, two,
24:05
Speaker 3: three weeks and supported by you know, a therapist or
24:10
Speaker 3: two for holding space for that six hours or so.
24:13
Speaker 3: And you know, you're meeting with the person before to
24:16
Speaker 3: help get them ready and and you're following along and
24:19
Speaker 3: checking in. But the data is showing equal or better
24:25
Speaker 3: response and remission rates compared to traditional treatments like SSRIs
24:30
Speaker 3: without We're not talking about a daily pill.
24:32
Speaker 2: We're talking about.
24:33
Speaker 3: One or two doses still with benefits still president twelve
24:38
Speaker 3: weeks out and then there's some long term follow upcoming.
24:43
Speaker 2: So it does.
24:44
Speaker 3: I won't say it works for everyone and it stays
24:47
Speaker 3: and the benefits stay forever, and a lot of that's
24:49
Speaker 3: still getting figured out.
24:50
Speaker 2: But but I am.
24:52
Speaker 3: You know, certainly hopeful and welcoming this as a much
24:56
Speaker 3: needed option when we can get it into clinics. And
25:00
Speaker 3: as I've been working with this for the past several years,
25:03
Speaker 3: I have had to go to far off places sometimes
25:07
Speaker 3: have been involved in retreats with psychedelic medicine outside of
25:10
Speaker 3: the country at times to access it for you know,
25:15
Speaker 3: conditions or people who maybe wouldn't qualify for a study
25:18
Speaker 3: at this point.
25:20
Speaker 1: These couple of sessions. That's remarkable that we're having really
25:25
Speaker 1: positive outcomes just in a couple of sessions. Can we
25:29
Speaker 1: speak to I mean, I've done some study in this
25:31
Speaker 1: space of setting and then integration with regard to those
25:35
Speaker 1: is that being looked at it all or how important
25:38
Speaker 1: is that to kind of healing sessions.
25:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting time in the psychedelic therapy world
25:45
Speaker 3: because these medicines are preparing to go up to the
25:48
Speaker 3: FDA for approval, starting with psilocybin. And this is following
25:55
Speaker 3: the attempt to get MDMA approved for PTSD by MAPS
25:59
Speaker 3: that was not approved by the FDA and created a
26:02
Speaker 3: lot of debate around how to study these and how
26:06
Speaker 3: to how the FDA might approve them in this new
26:09
Speaker 3: era of they were presented with a medicine and therapy
26:13
Speaker 3: and you know they don't typically approve that kind of thing, right,
26:18
Speaker 3: a combination like that. And so now I think it's
26:22
Speaker 3: clear that the model that's been studied and used in
26:26
Speaker 3: the ketemine world and applied to the psychedelic therapy world
26:29
Speaker 3: is that you help the individual get ready beforehand by
26:33
Speaker 3: working with them that you call the preparation phase, and
26:37
Speaker 3: you get to know you know what to expect and
26:41
Speaker 3: also how to surrender to the experience how and you
26:46
Speaker 3: start to work on like what direction are we going
26:49
Speaker 3: to point this, what intention perhaps or seed are we
26:52
Speaker 3: going to plant? As we go in and do some
26:55
Speaker 3: work and some repeated work in the in the studies
26:59
Speaker 3: for depression, just doing a session or two and kind
27:02
Speaker 3: of following along and trying to standardize that. That's why
27:05
Speaker 3: I say it's an interesting time where you know, it
27:08
Speaker 3: would be too complicated to layer all the different therapies
27:11
Speaker 3: and get them in there, or even maybe too risky
27:14
Speaker 3: to just try one therapy modality. So it's kind of
27:18
Speaker 3: landed in this supportive dosing session monitor role that is
27:24
Speaker 3: a psychotherapist in our studies who is working with the
27:28
Speaker 3: person to repair sitting with them during usually two individuals.
27:34
Speaker 3: I get to do those on some of our studies,
27:35
Speaker 3: some they don't let me as the study doc. And
27:39
Speaker 3: then after usually they'll come in the next day for
27:42
Speaker 3: a session that we used to call integration, but the
27:45
Speaker 3: studies aren't calling it that anymore. But it is like
27:48
Speaker 3: a follow up session. But the whole time you're with
27:51
Speaker 3: them and they're going inward, coming out and maybe talking
27:55
Speaker 3: about it or maybe getting some support and how to
27:58
Speaker 3: move through things. There is the question that comes up
28:04
Speaker 3: everywhere from the FDA to just like academic circles doing
28:09
Speaker 3: thought exercises of like how much is the therapy needed,
28:13
Speaker 3: like for depression if we get out of the way.
28:16
Speaker 3: There's even some instruction when I trained in the by
28:20
Speaker 3: maps in the MDMA therapy protocol back when those studies
28:24
Speaker 3: were going on, there was an acronym that they'd give
28:27
Speaker 3: us in the therapy manual of like weight, why am
28:31
Speaker 3: I talking, you know, just like getting out of the
28:34
Speaker 3: way of that innerhaling intelligence and not over intervening.
28:40
Speaker 1: We as the therapy or psychiatrist group, because as I thought,
28:45
Speaker 1: you meant like get out of our own way with
28:46
Speaker 1: our ego and ourselves yeah.
28:47
Speaker 2: That too. Probably both of those folks get out of
28:49
Speaker 2: the way.
28:50
Speaker 3: But getting out of the way because the individual does
28:54
Speaker 3: have what they need inside to heal themselves.
28:57
Speaker 1: And that is so profound, profoundly different than it's a
29:02
Speaker 1: new It is a new age for psychiatry.
29:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is.
29:06
Speaker 3: You can kind of feel the ripple effects, and you know,
29:10
Speaker 3: there's still widespread kind of mental struggling and suffering out there,
29:15
Speaker 3: and our world is not an easy place on our
29:17
Speaker 3: mental health.
29:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Well, this is super fascinating. The
29:23
Speaker 1: other studies on I don't know, are there other things
29:27
Speaker 1: out there to talk about as far as the studies.
29:29
Speaker 3: I mean, I think we've covered a lot of the
29:31
Speaker 3: ground of where we're at and what's coming. It is
29:34
Speaker 3: in this kind of last phase of the research and
29:37
Speaker 3: roll out, you know, I think we can learn from
29:40
Speaker 3: what happened with Spravado and how that was delivered with
29:43
Speaker 3: some new challenges, longer sessions. But I think I can
29:48
Speaker 3: finally look forward and see the light at the end
29:51
Speaker 3: of this tunnel of like when we might be able
29:53
Speaker 3: to prescribe this and it will still have its hoops
29:57
Speaker 3: to jump through and probably a rem them like spravado
30:01
Speaker 3: when it's as.
30:02
Speaker 2: A controlled substance.
30:03
Speaker 3: But we've come a long way since the complete ban
30:09
Speaker 3: of psychedelics back in the seventies, including the research labs.
30:15
Speaker 1: Are there things that clinicians like myself might do in
30:18
Speaker 1: order to prepare for best practices in this space? I mean,
30:21
Speaker 1: I would love to be able to get out of
30:24
Speaker 1: the way to let folks heal in some safe settings
30:28
Speaker 1: in these spaces, and you know, and I wonder if
30:31
Speaker 1: there's a way to explore is there additional certifications that
30:35
Speaker 1: we might need or things just to prepare or is
30:39
Speaker 1: it just hate prescribe this medicine, give them some rough estimate,
30:42
Speaker 1: own guidelines and.
30:43
Speaker 3: It's to be determined. Like, I think, there's so much
30:49
Speaker 3: we can do to prepare, and most of that is
30:52
Speaker 3: probably just doing our own work as well tuned individuals
30:58
Speaker 3: who have walked these tough roads of like facing all
31:01
Speaker 3: our inner stuff and changing the sticky patterns that have
31:06
Speaker 3: not been you know, good for our lives and be
31:10
Speaker 3: able to you know, have the capacity to hold those
31:14
Speaker 3: big emotions that might come up as people do this work.
31:18
Speaker 3: And then as these things get closer to proval, we'll
31:21
Speaker 3: get more guidance on practically speaking, how to prepare and
31:24
Speaker 3: what you know, who needs to register for what to
31:27
Speaker 3: be a prescriber, to be a you know, a therapist
31:29
Speaker 3: in these and whatnot. But many are seeking out trainings
31:33
Speaker 3: in the meantime and working with ketamine and or psychedelics
31:39
Speaker 3: in other states even and so I think the field
31:44
Speaker 3: is progressing on multiple fronts regardless.
31:46
Speaker 1: I think that's gold. The advice you give tip for
31:49
Speaker 1: us to just do our own work, do our own
31:51
Speaker 1: emotional intelligence work, our own your aulasticity work. Are we stuck?
31:55
Speaker 1: Are there are there things that we're struggling with that
31:58
Speaker 1: we might need to free up as clinicians so that
32:00
Speaker 1: we can better show up for these folks as they're
32:03
Speaker 1: looking to embark on the similar journey. That's really smart,
32:06
Speaker 1: that's cool, and it relieves us of the hubris of
32:12
Speaker 1: certifications and additional this and like like, actually, just do
32:16
Speaker 1: your work. It's fine, Like.
32:17
Speaker 3: It will it will need to get worked out, but
32:20
Speaker 3: I can tell you it's not difficult to get like
32:23
Speaker 3: registered as a spravado provider. It's not going to be
32:27
Speaker 3: so simple for these other medicines, but you know it's
32:31
Speaker 3: it's not going to be how the training programs and
32:35
Speaker 3: things were for the clinical trials five years ago. It's
32:38
Speaker 3: it's working towards that kind of clarified path.
32:42
Speaker 1: Can we speak a little bit to the spiritual space,
32:44
Speaker 1: because if this is introducing kind of this heart opening,
32:47
Speaker 1: expansive spiritual experience, kind of that that can go in
32:51
Speaker 1: and heal us deeply some of our broken spaces that
32:54
Speaker 1: we sometimes don't even see, can we speak to the
32:58
Speaker 1: spiritual aspect of this and how that is becoming integrated
33:01
Speaker 1: into the psych space.
33:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's interesting if you look at like the
33:08
Speaker 3: history of mental health treatment and psychedelics during that era
33:14
Speaker 3: we were just talking about of say the seventies. Like
33:18
Speaker 3: one example is Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous.
33:23
Speaker 2: And was head of the board of that.
33:26
Speaker 3: For quite some time, and had an experience himself with
33:32
Speaker 3: a psychedelic that he attributes his sobriety to and it
33:36
Speaker 3: was a mystical one and he's written the story and
33:38
Speaker 3: you can look it up, and he's standing on top
33:39
Speaker 3: of a mountain and like in this vision experience that
33:43
Speaker 3: he had on a classic psychedelic and that five AHG
33:46
Speaker 3: two a receptor and he said, you know, we've got
33:51
Speaker 3: to he said to his AA colleagues, like we gotta
33:55
Speaker 3: you know, we got to explore this or whatever. They
33:56
Speaker 3: would not have it and which he like even had
33:58
Speaker 3: to leave there. But it's different now. And I think
34:02
Speaker 3: many people in addiction treatment, in mood disorders, in kind
34:08
Speaker 3: of eating disorders and all sorts of other things, not all,
34:13
Speaker 3: but more and more are really kind of sharing and
34:17
Speaker 3: being able to talk about more freely, like their experience
34:21
Speaker 3: with connecting with something bigger than themselves, Like that is
34:25
Speaker 3: outside of this constrained kind of default mode place that
34:31
Speaker 3: just translates into leaps and bounds of progress, or like
34:36
Speaker 3: really getting to see the forest from the trees for
34:40
Speaker 3: a time and putting it in perspective.
34:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, can we talk about it like in the clinical
34:46
Speaker 1: setting a little bit, like is therapists and things?
34:48
Speaker 2: Is that okay?
34:49
Speaker 1: Or is that still kind of round upon?
34:51
Speaker 3: No, that's I'd say that's kind of been welcomed with
34:55
Speaker 3: open arms. And even in the clinical DRIUT protocols people
34:59
Speaker 3: think it's devoid of spirituality, but no, like people are
35:02
Speaker 3: having spiritual experiences in a clinical trial and I have
35:06
Speaker 3: to document it in a chart, you know what I mean,
35:08
Speaker 3: It's like and you put it in your concise way,
35:10
Speaker 3: but we are it's an interesting time to do clinical
35:15
Speaker 3: trials because a side effect of medicine might be like
35:19
Speaker 3: a visual hallucination, and that could be like a blissful
35:24
Speaker 3: experience for one, it could be scary for another, but
35:29
Speaker 3: part of an experience for many that is very different
35:32
Speaker 3: and unique, and it's it's shaken up. Psychiatrip made us
35:37
Speaker 3: expand our nomenclature quite a bit, and I'd say it's
35:42
Speaker 3: also kind of bringing a much needed renewed focus on
35:46
Speaker 3: emotions in general, which you know, I've always seen are
35:51
Speaker 3: quite connected to our spirituality and because part of our
35:56
Speaker 3: emotions exist as signals to tell us how to navigate
35:59
Speaker 3: the world world like fear warns and anger protects and
36:03
Speaker 3: things like that.
36:03
Speaker 2: But also there's.
36:04
Speaker 3: Meaning making that we as humans really do with those things,
36:09
Speaker 3: and that's both part of how psychedelics work, kind of
36:14
Speaker 3: bringing emotions to the surface. You know, you got to
36:18
Speaker 3: go through it. The only way out is through in
36:20
Speaker 3: some of those difficult emotions because they exist to kind
36:26
Speaker 3: of rise and fall and pass, and because we've swatted
36:28
Speaker 3: them away or numb them out or done something else.
36:32
Speaker 3: So part of it is kind of bravely going on
36:36
Speaker 3: that hero's journey to feel the unfelt feelings with the
36:41
Speaker 3: support so you can get to the other side of it.
36:44
Speaker 1: Can we talk about like some of the caveates, maybe
36:47
Speaker 1: some of the contraindications, or maybe some of the maybe
36:50
Speaker 1: we should pause and consider not doing this where some people, Yeah,
36:54
Speaker 1: if you are in a certain way, where would be
36:58
Speaker 1: the cautions that you would give?
36:59
Speaker 3: I'd say, like, the big caution is is just these
37:05
Speaker 3: are not toys, and there is a very real risk
37:08
Speaker 3: of a difficult experience for many people. If you look
37:13
Speaker 3: at say the psilocybin studies or the natural survey studies
37:18
Speaker 3: of people using it outside of clinic settings, it's a
37:24
Speaker 3: high rate of people having both difficult experiences and even
37:28
Speaker 3: needing some support like a clinic visit or whatever. But
37:31
Speaker 3: equally and overlapping with that, a very high rate of
37:34
Speaker 3: having one of the most meaningful experience of their lives
37:37
Speaker 3: that they say was profound. But so the bottom line
37:42
Speaker 3: from that is that you know, doing these in an
37:45
Speaker 3: unsupported way is considered risky, and there are subpopulations that
37:50
Speaker 3: are especially at risk, like those with any kind of
37:55
Speaker 3: history or even family history of psychotic illness.
37:59
Speaker 2: Where it's it's perhaps a risk.
38:02
Speaker 3: Of losing touch with reality more substantially and kind of
38:06
Speaker 3: and losing that grip in a way that you know,
38:10
Speaker 3: could be you know, not so useful for someone's life.
38:14
Speaker 3: And same thing with bipolar and active substance use patterns,
38:18
Speaker 3: perhaps that might interfere. Like there's a lot of data
38:21
Speaker 3: out on the rate of difficult experiences on psilocybin goes
38:24
Speaker 3: up quite a bit. There's two main factors, not having
38:29
Speaker 3: a sober sitter, and two is combined with cannabis, for example,
38:33
Speaker 3: And so people, you know, take one thing that might
38:38
Speaker 3: kind of throw them for a loop, but you combine
38:39
Speaker 3: it with something else and it can be very disorienting.
38:43
Speaker 1: Addiction potential here with some of these things, I mean,
38:46
Speaker 1: are we going into a new opiate crisis thing? We're
38:49
Speaker 1: looking at their thankfully. I think that's the big dogma
38:52
Speaker 1: right from the sixties, Like folks are like, oh, you
38:54
Speaker 1: don't want to you know.
38:56
Speaker 2: You get Yeah.
38:57
Speaker 3: I was asked by I a group a couple of
39:01
Speaker 3: years ago to go up to Capitol Hill in Utah
39:03
Speaker 3: here and testify on behalf of the mushroom if you will,
39:07
Speaker 3: like psilocybin, to just cite the science and safety, and
39:10
Speaker 3: so it was because a bill that was trying to
39:13
Speaker 3: get past at the time that didn't and so I
39:16
Speaker 3: gave my summary and so do some others. Then they
39:18
Speaker 3: opened up for comment, and some of the comments were
39:22
Speaker 3: really energized around how could.
39:25
Speaker 2: You open these up? The children are.
39:28
Speaker 3: Going to get them and get addicted or something like that.
39:30
Speaker 3: But that's grossly misinformed. And I agree with being extremely
39:34
Speaker 3: cautious with addictive substances, and I agree with being cautious
39:38
Speaker 3: with ketamine as a substance that some people get addicted to.
39:44
Speaker 3: But I have not encountered a psilocybinn addiction. I've encountered
39:47
Speaker 3: a lot of reckless use of it. But thankfully those
39:50
Speaker 3: medicines tend to come with some inherent anti addictive potential,
39:54
Speaker 3: and there's another wave of study is looking at them
39:59
Speaker 3: for addiction, like the first psychedelic to treat it. Yeah, yeah, alcoholism.
40:05
Speaker 3: Really good data on psilocybin for alcoholism, some data on
40:09
Speaker 3: opius disorder.
40:10
Speaker 2: The first study that the US.
40:12
Speaker 3: Government funded of a psychedelic since they banned them in
40:15
Speaker 3: the seventies was psilocybin for smoking cessation, like a single
40:21
Speaker 3: dose and with some really positive response rates. So it's
40:25
Speaker 3: a it's a very important question. And thankfully on these
40:29
Speaker 3: ones they don't come with that inherent abuse potential that's
40:34
Speaker 3: something like ketamine a benzo or opius do And I
40:39
Speaker 3: don't think. I think ketamine can be used very well
40:41
Speaker 3: to treat some like addictive disorders at the right phase,
40:45
Speaker 3: and I've used it that way, and I've used it
40:48
Speaker 3: a lot in clinic with the right parameters that I
40:50
Speaker 3: feel comfortable with it. But I just know a lot
40:53
Speaker 3: of individuals who and have have had a lot of
40:57
Speaker 3: like encounters with like the smaller subpopulation who is at risk,
41:02
Speaker 3: and it needs to be extra careful with.
41:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, very good. And my understanding is like unlike opioids,
41:10
Speaker 1: these don't hit that MEW receptor the euphoria space on
41:14
Speaker 1: a neuroscience standpoint.
41:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, there, all of this has to.
41:18
Speaker 1: Be alcohol hits it, opioids hit it strong strongly.
41:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's it's all w's when any medicine goes
41:27
Speaker 3: to the FDA to start as trials has to come
41:30
Speaker 3: with this.
41:32
Speaker 2: Drug.
41:33
Speaker 3: This information, this file of all that's known about the
41:36
Speaker 3: drug ever and a lot of studies on animals and
41:40
Speaker 3: beyond of its abuse potential and everything else. And so yeah,
41:45
Speaker 3: thankfully that's really well established as these aren't addictive medicines,
41:51
Speaker 3: but they will come out in a way that they're
41:53
Speaker 3: not going to be in people's homes either, Like Spravado.
41:56
Speaker 3: When I got approved, it was approved to be delivered
41:59
Speaker 3: in clinics, and so the area that I work in
42:02
Speaker 3: as a as a physician and a researcher is in
42:06
Speaker 3: the clinic path. And there are other groups working on
42:10
Speaker 3: getting these allowed for more psycho spiritual purposes or descheduled politically,
42:17
Speaker 3: because you know, I'll admit they did get over regulated overscheduled,
42:22
Speaker 3: but I'm focused on like bringing them to clinic use,
42:26
Speaker 3: which is safe, you.
42:28
Speaker 1: Know, controlled environments and not Yeah, I fail you. That's great,
42:33
Speaker 1: doctor Reed, Thank you so much. This has been so
42:36
Speaker 1: expansive and enlightening my understanding of some of the psychedelic space,
42:40
Speaker 1: some of the therapy space, and and even some of
42:43
Speaker 1: nudging me toward you know, doing some of my own
42:46
Speaker 1: deeper work in this space. I think it's lovely. Tell
42:49
Speaker 1: us about your shop, inner space research, yes, tell us
42:52
Speaker 1: about how one might get a hold of you, and
42:55
Speaker 1: you know, what are you looking for? As far as
42:57
Speaker 1: people to enroll in your in your trial and how
43:00
Speaker 1: might they get hold of you.
43:01
Speaker 3: So about a year ago I set up this clinic
43:05
Speaker 3: in Orum with my colleague and friend, doctor Steve Thayer.
43:09
Speaker 2: He's a psychologist. We've been working together.
43:11
Speaker 3: On psychedelic studies and working with helping train clinicians and
43:18
Speaker 3: ketamine work and et cetera for quite some time, and
43:20
Speaker 3: so we kind of architected this research site close to
43:26
Speaker 3: home with everything we've learned in the right. We bought
43:30
Speaker 3: a former midwiffery, so it's got a lot of cozy
43:34
Speaker 3: spaces for these psychedelic studies. And we are doing a
43:37
Speaker 3: number of psychedelic studies all for mental health conditions, and
43:41
Speaker 3: are currently enrolling for studies of silcybin type medicines for
43:46
Speaker 3: depression soon for PTSD. We have an LSD study for
43:52
Speaker 3: depression as well. We have psychedelic study for PTSD and
43:57
Speaker 3: psychedelic for generalized anxiety disorder. Where people just go to
44:01
Speaker 3: interspace research dot com, look at the list of studies,
44:05
Speaker 3: you know, give us a call, submit a form, and
44:09
Speaker 3: then we just get on the phone and go through
44:10
Speaker 3: to see if they seem like they might be a
44:12
Speaker 3: good fit, if they seem like if they come in
44:14
Speaker 3: and visit and we'll sit down and do the you know,
44:18
Speaker 3: do the official kind of diagnostic assessments or whatever. And
44:23
Speaker 3: even if people don't qualify, they get to come in
44:26
Speaker 3: and learn some things about themselves and contribute to science.
44:30
Speaker 3: And we even do blood work and EKGs and happily
44:33
Speaker 3: share those results of people free of charge. I mean,
44:36
Speaker 3: we actually compensate people for their time and travel and research,
44:40
Speaker 3: which is nice. So if there are individuals you know
44:46
Speaker 3: in your circles, anyone listening with depression anxiety PTSD, and
44:50
Speaker 3: you want to check out the website, we would love
44:52
Speaker 3: to see if we can help.
44:54
Speaker 1: And as clinicians, we can refer directly to that website Interspace,
44:58
Speaker 1: Interspace Research dot com, Space for Sure, dot com. It's awesome. Well,
45:02
Speaker 1: I have several clients that I'm already thinking about for that.
45:05
Speaker 1: Would you know, We've been trying to help for a
45:06
Speaker 1: long time and they're seeking other options and other solutions,
45:10
Speaker 1: and so I'm excited for your research to be on
45:13
Speaker 1: the cutting edge of such a new chapter in mental
45:15
Speaker 1: and emotional wellness. At some point, I'd love to bring
45:18
Speaker 1: you back and just just talk about ways that we
45:21
Speaker 1: can maintain emotional wellness and maybe like maybe just recognize
45:26
Speaker 1: if there is something the matter, Like there were things
45:29
Speaker 1: in my I've done some work in this space, and
45:32
Speaker 1: there were some things in my heart that I didn't see.
45:35
Speaker 1: I just didn't Yeah, and I didn't realize that it
45:39
Speaker 1: was affecting my default, no network, it was it was
45:43
Speaker 1: becoming part of the way I showed up. And so
45:48
Speaker 1: it was. It's been a fun journey for me to
45:49
Speaker 1: like mostly through foraging in the wilderness and taking deep
45:53
Speaker 1: breaths of the pine and mushrooms that grow up there,
45:57
Speaker 1: you know, to being able to dive deeper into my.
45:59
Speaker 2: Heart and figure out this. Yeah, that's really neat.
46:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would love to talk about you about that
46:06
Speaker 3: with you more and explore that it's a topic near
46:09
Speaker 3: and dear to my heart. As like as clinicians especially,
46:13
Speaker 3: we gotta both practice what we preach and kind of
46:18
Speaker 3: maintain our capacity to do the work well. Right.
46:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, So in the meantime, let's take our sixteen year
46:24
Speaker 1: olds up into the mountains and get them out of
46:25
Speaker 1: there breathe in the AIRA that would be amazing, Dochory.
46:28
Speaker 2: Thank you for your time.
46:30
Speaker 1: Thanks has been really really fun and to our listeners,
46:32
Speaker 1: I hope you learned some cool stuff today. As always,
46:35
Speaker 1: our mission is just to expand the knowledge and wisdom
46:38
Speaker 1: of our community and to bring on really great hosts
46:40
Speaker 1: or guests. And the host is not bad either, but
46:44
Speaker 1: it's just really fun.
46:45
Speaker 2: So yeah, thank you, thanks, I've enjoyed it.