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The Orchestra Isn't the Only Path to Success · Do Music Differently

0:01
Speaker 1: Reveal the rules, rewrite your future on your own terms.
0:07
Speaker 1: The conversation starts now. Welcome to Do Music Differently with
0:11
Speaker 1: Heidselin on W4WN Radio.
0:16
Speaker 2: Hey everybody, I am Heidselin. Welcome to Do Music Differently.
0:21
Speaker 2: You know, I get to talk to a lot of
0:24
Speaker 2: very interesting people and it just didn't seem fair for
0:28
Speaker 2: me to keep all of these stories myself, because the
0:33
Speaker 2: people I'm talking to are working through the process of
0:37
Speaker 2: figuring out how to develop a sustainable lifestyle around their music.
0:44
Speaker 2: And they're not going to sacrifice things that they value
0:48
Speaker 2: either as they're building this. And they're doing it with
0:52
Speaker 2: less burnout and more joy, which is why I really
0:58
Speaker 2: love our next guest, Darcy Gameral. She has found a
1:05
Speaker 2: way to find joy with the music that she's making.
1:09
Speaker 2: Come on, Darcy, and join me.
1:13
Speaker 3: I'm really excited. There she is. I'm not just a voice.
1:19
Speaker 2: So nice to have you. Thank you.
1:24
Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, it's a joy. I love everything. that
1:28
Speaker 3: your program is about. I think it is vital that
1:32
Speaker 3: we forge a new path, create new careers, and in
1:36
Speaker 3: a way where we can get a lot of satisfaction
1:38
Speaker 3: and serve communities as well. So great to be here.
1:42
Speaker 2: Awesome. Awesome. So I'm excited that you're here because in
1:46
Speaker 2: the music world, I come from metal and bands and
1:51
Speaker 2: stuff like that. And you come from this orchestra world,
1:55
Speaker 2: which is I think is quite magical how it all
1:59
Speaker 2: comes together, but it's a little mind blowing to me.
2:02
Speaker 2: And I'm very excited to get your perspective on this
2:06
Speaker 2: because I know that, you know, these older rules that
2:10
Speaker 2: we kind of inherit, they overlap from one situation to another.
2:16
Speaker 2: And so before we get started and start rewriting some
2:20
Speaker 2: rules here today, Why don't you tell everybody a little
2:24
Speaker 2: bit more about your background and some of the stuff
2:29
Speaker 2: that you're working on today?
2:30
Speaker 3: Absolutely. My background was primarily orchestral. So I trained at
2:37
Speaker 3: several different conservatories. And my goal was always to get
2:42
Speaker 3: a full-time orchestra job. That was something that I was
2:46
Speaker 3: absolutely focused on for years and years and years. And
2:51
Speaker 3: if you're not familiar with that world, a lot of
2:53
Speaker 3: the music that we end up playing is by old
2:55
Speaker 3: dead white men. There's leadership positions that are male, although
3:00
Speaker 3: that is changing a little bit in the industry. So
3:02
Speaker 3: there are a lot of stereotypes, but also realities in
3:05
Speaker 3: that industry that made me look to other ways to
3:09
Speaker 3: reach people in a more meaningful way, but also something
3:12
Speaker 3: that brought me personally more joy and that allowed me freedom,
3:15
Speaker 3: that allowed me to have creative vision and develop programming,
3:19
Speaker 3: write music, all of those things. So I founded Bel
3:23
Speaker 3: Canto Duo with my partner and now husband, David Downing.
3:26
Speaker 3: He was also a classically trained cellist, but got into Americana, bluegrass,
3:32
Speaker 3: some heavier stuff as well, because he's known for doing
3:35
Speaker 3: like the Nirvana shows, right? So doing music, but in
3:40
Speaker 3: a very different way. And his express form is through
3:43
Speaker 3: a looping station. So It creates really amazing layers that
3:47
Speaker 3: are multifaceted, but also it allows us both to write
3:52
Speaker 3: and we do so individually and collaboratively as a duo.
3:55
Speaker 3: So it looks much different than what I anticipated, but
4:00
Speaker 3: I can't say that I regret it at all. It's
4:02
Speaker 3: been a really fun transition for sure.
4:04
Speaker 2: All right, so let's talk about why did it feel
4:08
Speaker 2: so important to you that you must be in an
4:13
Speaker 2: orchestra and you had to do it that way when
4:16
Speaker 2: you first got started?
4:18
Speaker 3: That's a great question. There's something really special about being
4:22
Speaker 3: a part of a big band, right? 60 to a
4:25
Speaker 3: hundred plus musicians on stage, all making music together.
4:28
Speaker 2: It's a pretty special feeling. Yeah.
4:31
Speaker 3: And, you know, just being in the middle of that sound.
4:34
Speaker 3: I mean, there's, something really amazing about that. And there's
4:38
Speaker 3: a reason why orchestras aren't amplified. I mean, they don't
4:40
Speaker 3: need to be, you really pump out some sounds. So
4:42
Speaker 3: it's something that I always loved. So I think that
4:45
Speaker 3: was the story that I told myself. And then what I,
4:49
Speaker 3: the narrow window that I defined as success was that
4:53
Speaker 3: it had to be full time. And I, we affectionately
4:58
Speaker 3: refer to it as the interstate philharmonic, you know, most
5:00
Speaker 3: musicians end up with four or five, six different orchestra
5:03
Speaker 3: jobs and you're driving all over the place. playing in
5:06
Speaker 3: different states all the time. And it's kind of a
5:10
Speaker 3: fallacy because it's not very rewarding. You're traveling all the time.
5:12
Speaker 3: It's essentially like touring, but without many of the perks.
5:17
Speaker 2: I see. I see. Okay. So what was happening in
5:23
Speaker 2: your life? So you did get to that point where
5:26
Speaker 2: you were part of an orchestra and you were getting
5:29
Speaker 2: to experience that part of life, right?
5:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had four different tenured orchestra jobs in as
5:37
Speaker 3: many different states. And I do a lot of touring work,
5:42
Speaker 3: playing with different Broadway acts that come through. So I
5:44
Speaker 3: was making, you know, a decent living. But I was
5:48
Speaker 3: pretty burnt out. I was traveling through some pretty gnarly conditions.
5:52
Speaker 3: Orchestra season runs from the fall into the spring. So
5:54
Speaker 3: you're driving in a lot of pretty nasty weather. I
5:59
Speaker 3: was away from my family. And... it just became less
6:03
Speaker 3: and less gratifying. You know, you check off the pieces
6:06
Speaker 3: on your list that you wanted to play and you
6:09
Speaker 3: go do an audition. You practice for thousands of hours.
6:11
Speaker 3: You spend thousands of dollars play for five minutes behind
6:15
Speaker 3: a screen. And then you hear a thank you. And
6:17
Speaker 3: then that's it. Like you go to the art museum
6:19
Speaker 3: and go home. I mean, like, what do you do? Like, so,
6:23
Speaker 3: so yeah, I guess it got to the point where
6:24
Speaker 3: I realized not only was it not fulfilling for me artistically,
6:29
Speaker 3: but also it just, wanted to do something that was
6:32
Speaker 3: more impactful.
6:33
Speaker 2: And it sounds like there was a lot of rejection
6:36
Speaker 2: there that you had to deal with as well from
6:38
Speaker 2: all of those auditions and over and over again, how,
6:42
Speaker 2: how did you deal with that in the midst of,
6:45
Speaker 2: you know, feeling burnt out and everything being so busy?
6:49
Speaker 3: Well, I think as a creative and an, as an artist,
6:52
Speaker 3: you have to have some resilience, right? Like it is
6:55
Speaker 3: hard when you hear a no, when you've practiced for
6:57
Speaker 3: thousands of hours, um, You know, and I don't know
7:01
Speaker 3: how many professional auditions I've done. Quite a few. Probably 30,
7:06
Speaker 3: maybe 40.
7:07
Speaker 2: I don't know.
7:08
Speaker 3: I know people that have done hundreds. Yeah, so it
7:13
Speaker 3: becomes very subjective. You know, when you get to the
7:16
Speaker 3: top 1%, 5% maybe in your field, whoever gets selected,
7:20
Speaker 3: it's a very, very narrow margin. Depends what they're looking
7:24
Speaker 3: for sound-wise. Usually the committee is varied with different types
7:28
Speaker 3: of instrumentalists. So you'll have some wind players, you'll brass players,
7:31
Speaker 3: you'll have string players and maybe the conductor. And usually
7:35
Speaker 3: you don't see any of those people until the final round.
7:38
Speaker 3: If that sometimes they do it all behind a screen.
7:40
Speaker 3: And the reason is because there were a lot of
7:43
Speaker 3: old school conductors back in the day. If they heard
7:46
Speaker 3: some person walk in that sounded like they were wearing heels,
7:50
Speaker 3: then they would discriminate. They wouldn't vote for them. So
7:52
Speaker 3: there's a reason why we do it behind a screen.
7:55
Speaker 3: Not that it's always anonymous. pretty clear a lot of
7:57
Speaker 3: times it's not but that's how it's traditionally done these
8:01
Speaker 3: days anyways so truth be told one of the big
8:04
Speaker 3: in charity that we have to play all the time
8:06
Speaker 3: as oboists is the Mozart oboe concerto so in an
8:09
Speaker 3: effort to keep it interesting I actually practice it with
8:12
Speaker 3: the on hell track by Rammstein because it's much more
8:15
Speaker 3: interesting as a metronome than just a click in your
8:18
Speaker 3: ear you know so yes so you can get creative
8:20
Speaker 3: with it too yeah yeah the rejection isn't easy but
8:23
Speaker 3: you know it you get to a point, I think,
8:25
Speaker 3: where you just decide not to take it personally and
8:28
Speaker 3: continue working on your art.
8:30
Speaker 2: So I just really did want to bring that to
8:33
Speaker 2: everyone's attention as part of the conversation, just because I
8:38
Speaker 2: know for me, I was just carried away and totally
8:40
Speaker 2: excited with becoming a performer. And when I hit the
8:46
Speaker 2: first couple walls of rejection, it was kind of detrimental
8:51
Speaker 2: to me. And that's like where I really kind of
8:53
Speaker 2: started building up the resilience, but I feel like I
8:55
Speaker 2: could have come into it with a little bit more armor,
8:58
Speaker 2: just knowing what to expect instead of, I don't know, whatever,
9:03
Speaker 2: whatever I was believing at the time. All right.
9:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. Awesome.
9:09
Speaker 2: So, um, I know when we had first talked, uh,
9:14
Speaker 2: when we were putting together this episode, you used the
9:19
Speaker 2: word slave, uh, to how you were feeling after a while.
9:25
Speaker 2: Can you tell us more about that? Because I feel
9:28
Speaker 2: like it probably was leading you to that pivot, right?
9:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, you know, this goes for anything, right?
9:38
Speaker 3: If you get to a point where you're just constantly
9:42
Speaker 3: a machine, essentially, turning out repertoire. So to give you
9:45
Speaker 3: an idea, we would have a full program every week.
9:48
Speaker 3: So I'd be in a different state playing a different
9:52
Speaker 3: masterworks program, having to prepare weeks in advance if possible
9:55
Speaker 3: for that rep. Sometimes you get called in last minute
9:58
Speaker 3: for sub work where you literally are like sight reading
10:01
Speaker 3: a show and it gets to a point where you
10:03
Speaker 3: get pretty burnt out and yeah like you become a
10:06
Speaker 3: slave to that work to that schedule and for me
10:10
Speaker 3: the number one thing that I value most is freedom
10:14
Speaker 3: and so being able to pick my own schedule to
10:18
Speaker 3: kind of my own artistic vision is ultimately what drove
10:23
Speaker 3: me to focus more on the duo stuff that we're
10:28
Speaker 3: doing with Bel Canto Duo. And a lot of that
10:30
Speaker 3: too is the firsthand way that we see that it
10:32
Speaker 3: impacts people. People really are moved by it. So I
10:35
Speaker 3: think when you have something like that that's feeding your soul,
10:39
Speaker 3: it's a lot easier to really feel motivated and driven
10:44
Speaker 3: in a good way, not just a slave to replicating
10:47
Speaker 3: work by people that lived hundreds of years ago. or
10:50
Speaker 3: to the artistic vision of whoever happens to be on
10:53
Speaker 3: the podium. So I think that ultimately definitely is what
10:57
Speaker 3: kind of caused me to pivot. And there were just
11:00
Speaker 3: more and more things that happened. You know, in some
11:03
Speaker 3: of the orchestras that I played in, you know, the
11:05
Speaker 3: level went down or maybe there, in one case, there
11:08
Speaker 3: was a colleague who was problematic. And so it comes
11:12
Speaker 3: to a point where it's kind of like the whole
11:16
Speaker 3: crux of the issue. It's the tipping point where you're
11:17
Speaker 3: just like, okay, I'm not going to do this this way.
11:20
Speaker 3: This isn't working for me on many different levels. And
11:24
Speaker 3: so I made that decision.
11:26
Speaker 2: What are some things that because of your schedule and
11:30
Speaker 2: because of all of that practice time and all of that,
11:32
Speaker 2: that you were missing in your life? They were like, man,
11:35
Speaker 2: I wish I could go to the beach with my
11:37
Speaker 2: friends this Saturday. Or like, were there things that you
11:40
Speaker 2: were really wishing that you could you could do, but
11:43
Speaker 2: just schedule wouldn't allow?
11:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely time with friends for sure. But also, you know,
11:50
Speaker 3: we have two teenage girls, so going to their activities,
11:54
Speaker 3: you know, just spending time with them. Yeah, just those
11:57
Speaker 3: parts of life that really make it meaningful, not just
12:01
Speaker 3: working all the time.
12:02
Speaker 2: Right, right. Okay. I feel like I have a good
12:07
Speaker 2: picture of, you know, where you started, what you believed,
12:13
Speaker 2: and then the situation. that you were in. So you
12:18
Speaker 2: reached that goal. And now you start to realize that
12:22
Speaker 2: there are certain things that you value, like your freedom
12:26
Speaker 2: and spending time with your family and friends that you
12:29
Speaker 2: were really missing out on. So with those realizations, how
12:36
Speaker 2: then did you figure out how to break out of
12:40
Speaker 2: your slavery? What were the first steps that you started
12:44
Speaker 2: to take to make the shift?
12:47
Speaker 3: Well, I joke and say that I'm a slow learner,
12:50
Speaker 3: but it's kind of true. It actually started with a
12:53
Speaker 3: couple of different things happening. In the winter of 2019,
12:57
Speaker 3: I had this crazy dream of an Aztec dancer that
13:02
Speaker 3: I had photographed in Utah years prior. And in the dream,
13:07
Speaker 3: this dancer was standing in front of this huge tsunami
13:10
Speaker 3: wave with his arms outstretched. And without saying anything, he
13:14
Speaker 3: turned to look at me right before the wave and
13:17
Speaker 3: coughed him. And the message that was like, screaming at
13:22
Speaker 3: me was create. And so I was like, Whoa, okay,
13:25
Speaker 3: that was intense. Like, I'm listening. So I started writing
13:28
Speaker 3: music then. And then, you know, there were just a
13:32
Speaker 3: couple of other things that that happened. But that was
13:35
Speaker 3: really the start of it, where I had written music
13:38
Speaker 3: in grad school and just had stopped because I was
13:39
Speaker 3: so focused on replicating right recreating the classical repertoire um
13:46
Speaker 3: and so that was really the start of the actual
13:49
Speaker 3: creation of things and then there was a moment uh
13:52
Speaker 3: after our first commissioned work in 2022 um david and
13:57
Speaker 3: i were driving up the north shore in minnesota by
13:59
Speaker 3: duluth and there's this bay up there where a bunch
14:02
Speaker 3: of people surf in the winter and they would do
14:04
Speaker 3: like the full body suits and It was snowing. There
14:07
Speaker 3: were like these huge flakes coming down and an eagle
14:10
Speaker 3: flew overhead. As we're listening to this piece, it was
14:13
Speaker 3: called Sacred Waters. And we both kind of had a
14:16
Speaker 3: simultaneous moment of realization where we're like, oh, like this
14:21
Speaker 3: is amazing. Like this is gratifying for us to create this,
14:25
Speaker 3: but also like, whoa, what we're able to create together
14:29
Speaker 3: outside of our own individual artistic vacuums. is way beyond
14:33
Speaker 3: anything that we could have even imagined, the two of us.
14:36
Speaker 3: And so that's kind of how it started. You know,
14:40
Speaker 3: from there, we released an album in 2023, 2024, 2025.
14:43
Speaker 3: And we're going strong. So, yeah.
14:48
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. So do you guys get out and perform
14:52
Speaker 2: a lot or are they mostly just doing recordings and
14:56
Speaker 2: putting them out? How are you guys doing that?
15:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, we just got back from an East Coast tour.
15:03
Speaker 3: We did an artist residency in Iceland over the summer.
15:07
Speaker 3: And in addition to the albums that we released, we
15:09
Speaker 3: also do documentaries. So this last album, Taking Flight, which
15:15
Speaker 3: is up for your consideration for a Grammy, which I'm
15:18
Speaker 3: very excited about. Basically, we wrote it and then I
15:23
Speaker 3: put the documentary to the music. So one of the
15:25
Speaker 3: interesting sides of our practice that we do, in addition
15:28
Speaker 3: to writing collaboratively, it's almost like jazz in a way.
15:32
Speaker 3: So we have kind of the head of the tune,
15:34
Speaker 3: which we usually will write out or have a set
15:37
Speaker 3: format for, but then there are improvisatory passages that we
15:41
Speaker 3: do simultaneously. So it's a very interesting conversation that we
15:44
Speaker 3: can create together, and each performance is refreshing and new.
15:48
Speaker 3: But also, there's a side of what we do that's
15:51
Speaker 3: in the neuro arts realm, which is a new emerging
15:53
Speaker 3: field in basically thanks to brain scanning technology like EEG machines,
15:58
Speaker 3: we can see how music affects the brain. And what
16:02
Speaker 3: we've discovered is that it greatly impacts all parts of
16:05
Speaker 3: the brain. And in this case, our work with KUMC neurologists,
16:10
Speaker 3: we've uncovered in our first initial performance that not only
16:14
Speaker 3: does live music improve tinnitus symptoms, which are ringing in
16:17
Speaker 3: the ears, but they also, the symptoms improve in the
16:21
Speaker 3: recall of the live performance. So essentially a medication system
16:24
Speaker 3: without any side effects. And that's huge. So we're really excited.
16:28
Speaker 2: So recall, you mean like if I was just humming
16:33
Speaker 2: the song in my head to myself, that's what you
16:36
Speaker 2: mean by recall? Yeah.
16:37
Speaker 3: Like if you're just thinking about it, then they would
16:39
Speaker 3: still get relief from their symptoms, which is pretty amazing.
16:43
Speaker 2: That is pretty amazing. Like you just went from like, okay,
16:47
Speaker 2: this is cool. Like writing some great songs to like, okay,
16:52
Speaker 2: now we're going to put this to like pictures to
16:55
Speaker 2: now we're impacting people with problems that we haven't been
17:00
Speaker 2: able to figure out how to make them feel better. Like, whoa,
17:03
Speaker 2: you just amplified so much. So wait, so, so when,
17:10
Speaker 2: how long did this take you? When did you start
17:12
Speaker 2: making your shift? And then like to now with everything
17:16
Speaker 2: you just talked about?
17:17
Speaker 3: Well, I came across the neuro art stuff in, I
17:19
Speaker 3: think it was 2022. I did a healing music certification
17:24
Speaker 3: because I wanted, I've always wanted to help people, but
17:26
Speaker 3: I didn't want to go the traditional medical field route.
17:30
Speaker 3: And I'm sitting there reading about the different parts of
17:32
Speaker 3: the brain and about entrainment, which is what happens when
17:35
Speaker 3: your brain hears music, the brainwaves and the rhythm, the
17:39
Speaker 3: repetitive rhythm sync up and then brainwaves lower, which equals
17:43
Speaker 3: usually improved physical and mental health outcomes. And I'm listening
17:47
Speaker 3: as I'm studying this to David, playing on his looping
17:50
Speaker 3: station because he writes by ear so he's repping stuff
17:53
Speaker 3: and i was just like you know like the light
17:55
Speaker 3: bulb went off you know where i was like oh
17:58
Speaker 3: this is amazing this is perfect for this kind of
18:01
Speaker 3: science let's see what we can do so we reached
18:04
Speaker 3: out to a classically trained neurologist and the rest is history.
18:08
Speaker 2: So wow that is absolutely incredible so is um there
18:15
Speaker 2: more information about all of that out there on your
18:19
Speaker 2: website or something, or is that all stuff that you're
18:22
Speaker 2: still working on? Yeah.
18:24
Speaker 3: So belcantoduo.com is our website. If you want to learn
18:27
Speaker 3: more about the neuro arts, you can go to the
18:29
Speaker 3: neuro arts blueprint, which we are members of. There are
18:33
Speaker 3: different facets of the neuro arts that are impactful for people.
18:38
Speaker 3: I don't have the science on it, but The new
18:41
Speaker 3: Alice Walton Medical School uses architectural design that is, you know,
18:46
Speaker 3: sensory friendly, neuro arts friendly. Even my film design, you know,
18:50
Speaker 3: I used I'm pretty easily overwhelmed in a sensory way.
18:55
Speaker 3: So I use slower transitions, you know, flashing lights, that
18:59
Speaker 3: kind of thing. Not a fan of that either. I
19:02
Speaker 3: actually remember being in a live show once. I think
19:04
Speaker 3: it was Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith in the orchestra.
19:07
Speaker 3: And they didn't warn us that there were lights. It's
19:09
Speaker 3: like a Christmas show, you know. So we start the
19:11
Speaker 3: show and lights are going off and things are flying
19:14
Speaker 3: and coming down from the ceiling. And I was like,
19:17
Speaker 3: so overwhelmed. I could barely play. So this is something
19:20
Speaker 3: that is definitely near and dear to my heart, but
19:24
Speaker 3: it's really fascinating to see how it impacts people as well.
19:28
Speaker 2: All right. Well, that's awesome. We might talk a little
19:30
Speaker 2: bit more about that later, but I want to talk
19:35
Speaker 2: a little bit more about, so when you started to
19:37
Speaker 2: play with the duo, what kind of, uh, venues were you,
19:42
Speaker 2: were you playing at? Where were you getting books?
19:44
Speaker 3: We did a variety of things, whether it be smaller
19:48
Speaker 3: concert halls, galleries, concert series, those kinds of things. We
19:54
Speaker 3: do more work now with museums, but we've played all
19:58
Speaker 3: sorts of venues because we're able to go off grid
20:02
Speaker 3: in addition to just playing in a normal traditional recital
20:06
Speaker 3: or concert series. So we've done a variety of different events, galas,
20:11
Speaker 3: you name it.
20:12
Speaker 2: Okay. Awesome. I was also going to ask for like
20:21
Speaker 2: reaching out and getting more fans and more people interested
20:25
Speaker 2: in the music. How did you get started with that?
20:28
Speaker 2: Because I feel like with going the orchestra route, like
20:34
Speaker 2: everything's done for you, right? Like you didn't have to
20:37
Speaker 2: go and put posters up or anything that you were
20:40
Speaker 2: playing for this particular show or all that was done
20:45
Speaker 2: for you with the orchestra, right? So how was that
20:49
Speaker 2: kind of like a learning curve as you were branching
20:52
Speaker 2: out in this other area?
20:53
Speaker 3: Well, it was a huge learning curve. I mean, anything from,
20:57
Speaker 3: you know, approaching places for booking, coming up with programming
21:01
Speaker 3: ideas that fit well and working with presenters to find
21:05
Speaker 3: something that really will resonate with their audience, contract negotiation,
21:11
Speaker 3: all of the marketing side of things, website design. I mean, everything, right?
21:16
Speaker 3: Because nobody's going to do it for you. So it
21:20
Speaker 3: took a few years to really get the kind of
21:24
Speaker 3: timeline of things, especially booking, because a lot of places
21:27
Speaker 3: will book two, three seasons out. And so, you know,
21:31
Speaker 3: or at least have their lists going. So it took
21:34
Speaker 3: a little while to develop that timeline and to learn
21:37
Speaker 3: how that works. But as we make more connections with
21:40
Speaker 3: people and perform in places, most of the time we
21:42
Speaker 3: get invited back, which is great. Um, you know, and
21:46
Speaker 3: as you form those relationships and that's really what it's about, right?
21:50
Speaker 3: It's about forming, forming relationships that are meaningful with people,
21:53
Speaker 3: with presenters as well, especially, um, and making it not
21:57
Speaker 3: just transactional. Um, Which it can feel like sometimes, depending
22:01
Speaker 3: on how you treat that, right? So trying to form
22:04
Speaker 3: relationships and being really intentional about who we partner with,
22:09
Speaker 3: not just going for kind of like the easiest thing,
22:12
Speaker 3: which I think when you're working as an independent contractor, essentially,
22:16
Speaker 3: that's easy to do.
22:18
Speaker 2: Yes. Well, you are definitely dropping some really awesome nuggets.
22:22
Speaker 2: We are going to take a quick break. And when
22:25
Speaker 2: we come back, we are going to finish... rewriting this
22:30
Speaker 2: rule with Darcy.
22:32
Speaker 1: You are listening to Do Music Differently on W4WN Radio.
22:40
Speaker 2: Is your music career feeling unsustainable?
22:42
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22:46
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22:50
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22:52
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23:04
Speaker 1: Differently on W4WN Radio.
23:10
Speaker 2: Hey, and we're back. I'm here with Darcy Gamorel. And
23:16
Speaker 2: we are rewriting this rule that one of the guaranteed
23:22
Speaker 2: ways to success in the music industry is by joining
23:26
Speaker 2: an orchestra. And so, so far, we've learned that there's
23:31
Speaker 2: a lot of competition, a lot of rejection. When you
23:34
Speaker 2: get there, it's a lot of stress and can be
23:39
Speaker 2: really puts you in a box, makes you feel kind
23:42
Speaker 2: of like you're stuck there. And so Darcy's found her
23:46
Speaker 2: way out of that with a unique duo. And she's
23:51
Speaker 2: out playing shows. She's out touring. And... Another project that
23:56
Speaker 2: she's been working on is a film. And so I
24:00
Speaker 2: want to give you some time, Darcy, to tell us
24:03
Speaker 2: more about this film project.
24:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, Taking Flight, The Eighth Wonder of the World was
24:10
Speaker 3: developed in partnership with Brain Trust, the Nebraska Arts Council,
24:15
Speaker 3: Humanities Nebraska and the Cathedral Arts Project, in addition to
24:18
Speaker 3: support from the National Endowment for the Arts. And it
24:21
Speaker 3: started out with a trip to see the crane migration
24:24
Speaker 3: in southern Nebraska, which I had heard about for years
24:27
Speaker 3: and had just never gone to see. But I grew
24:29
Speaker 3: up in northern British Columbia, Canada. So and it was
24:32
Speaker 3: a major migratory stop. So it kind of felt like
24:34
Speaker 3: home when we finally got there. I was like, oh,
24:36
Speaker 3: this this is amazing. And so unbeknownst to us, some
24:39
Speaker 3: close friends of ours are big supporters of the Crane Trust.
24:43
Speaker 3: And I don't know what you call Crane fans, Craners.
24:47
Speaker 3: I don't know. I really need to look this up. But,
24:50
Speaker 3: you know, they were huge fans. So we went and
24:53
Speaker 3: they facilitated with the Crane Trust folks a short residency
24:58
Speaker 3: where we filmed for three days, two nights. We filmed
25:00
Speaker 3: at sunrise and sunset. And then some of their biologists
25:03
Speaker 3: donated footage. U.S. poet Laurie Ada LeMond donated a poem.
25:09
Speaker 3: And then several other people donated excerpts for the for
25:14
Speaker 3: the documentary. And so we put together what I would
25:16
Speaker 3: call an art documentary, all centering around the music. So
25:20
Speaker 3: we built the film around the album Taking Flight and
25:24
Speaker 3: essentially fit the footage into that. So we start out
25:28
Speaker 3: with a moment perfect for entrainment and the neuro arts
25:32
Speaker 3: where we just have a still shot of the Platte
25:36
Speaker 3: River and it's at sunset. It's, you know, these beautiful
25:39
Speaker 3: hues and you hear this music and some drumming and
25:43
Speaker 3: Kind of puts you in the mood for the rest
25:44
Speaker 3: of the documentary which has some environmental themes just raising
25:49
Speaker 3: awareness and then hopefully a shared sense of Responsibility for
25:53
Speaker 3: this earth that we all happen to share with a
25:56
Speaker 3: number of different creatures. So It has won several different
26:00
Speaker 3: awards International Sound Film Music Festival in Croatia best score
26:05
Speaker 3: for a documentary the Singapore film and script festival festival
26:10
Speaker 3: in Japan and and Spain. So some wonderful accolades. Um,
26:16
Speaker 3: chamber music America also honored us recently with the top
26:19
Speaker 3: interdisciplinary project for 2026 as well.
26:22
Speaker 2: So congratulations. That's amazing.
26:25
Speaker 3: Thank you. It's really been fun. I really enjoyed it
26:28
Speaker 3: a lot. Uh, we're actually working on a new project
26:31
Speaker 3: now as well, um, about the sculptor Daniel Chester French
26:35
Speaker 3: and the whole theme is kind of stepping into opportunity, right? Um,
26:39
Speaker 3: Daniel Shuster French got his first commission, The Minute Man,
26:42
Speaker 3: when he was, I believe, 22, 23, and he had
26:46
Speaker 3: zero formal training. So this really resonates, I think, for
26:50
Speaker 3: a lot of people, especially musicians, because a lot of
26:54
Speaker 3: times we don't feel ready for these opportunities that come
26:56
Speaker 3: our way, that come across our path. And it's about
27:00
Speaker 3: basically not letting fear drive the bus, like tell it
27:04
Speaker 3: to get into the fourth row, and taking... the time
27:08
Speaker 3: and the courage to step into that opportunity, whether or
27:10
Speaker 3: not you feel qualified. So kind of highlighting some of
27:13
Speaker 3: that in his work. Obviously, the Lincoln Memorial was the
27:16
Speaker 3: apex probably of his career. And everybody knows the Lincoln Memorial,
27:20
Speaker 3: but few people know Daniel Chester French and the story
27:23
Speaker 3: behind how he became that great artist. So that's in development.
27:28
Speaker 2: Now I have a question for you. as you were
27:30
Speaker 2: shifting into these new experiences and away from the formal
27:34
Speaker 2: orchestra structure, did you feel ready? Like what was going
27:39
Speaker 2: on in your mind in those days?
27:41
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.
27:42
Speaker 2: No, no.
27:44
Speaker 3: I mean, like I remember there were a couple of
27:46
Speaker 3: moments where I'm sitting in front of my computer, putting
27:49
Speaker 3: this film together. And I was like, I don't know
27:51
Speaker 3: what I'm doing. I'm learning DaVinci resolve, which is the
27:53
Speaker 3: main major film editing program. And I was completely overwhelmed,
27:58
Speaker 3: but yeah, You sit there for a little while with
28:00
Speaker 3: it and then you just take the next best step
28:02
Speaker 3: and just keep going, keep going, keep going. You know,
28:06
Speaker 3: I've had people who have sat down next to me,
28:10
Speaker 3: looked me in the face and said, you should just quit,
28:13
Speaker 3: you know, and all this. And they're terrible people for
28:15
Speaker 3: saying that. But, you know, it's like there are always
28:18
Speaker 3: going to be those people, whether it's your own internal
28:20
Speaker 3: voice that is, you know, kind of dragging you down
28:24
Speaker 3: or other people for whatever reason who decide to be,
28:28
Speaker 3: hateful and, you know, try to drag you down with them,
28:32
Speaker 3: there are always going to be those voices. And it's
28:34
Speaker 3: just a matter of whether you decide to listen to them.
28:36
Speaker 3: Don't listen to them, you know?
28:38
Speaker 2: That's right.
28:38
Speaker 3: Just keep going.
28:40
Speaker 2: Listen to us.
28:42
Speaker 3: Exactly.
28:47
Speaker 2: So, um, let's talk more about, so you talked more
28:51
Speaker 2: about the next film project that you're going to do. What,
28:55
Speaker 2: what else do you have planned? What else is coming up?
28:58
Speaker 3: Well, we're expanding, uh, on the collaborative work that we're
29:02
Speaker 3: doing with the KUMC neurologists on the study of tinnitus
29:06
Speaker 3: in particular, um, near and dear to my heart is also, um,
29:11
Speaker 3: some cognitive impairment issues and dementia. So I'm hoping that
29:14
Speaker 3: we can expand into that as well. But trying to
29:17
Speaker 3: get a real pilot study together with our neurologist friends
29:22
Speaker 3: so that we can have a lot of data to
29:24
Speaker 3: approach places for funding. I mean, because if you have
29:28
Speaker 3: been to the doctor lately, and there's a lot of
29:30
Speaker 3: crud going around, thanks to the start of school. But,
29:34
Speaker 3: you know, if you are looking at a major illness,
29:38
Speaker 3: there are very few interventions that have zero side effects.
29:42
Speaker 3: I mean, there are all sorts of really funny videos
29:44
Speaker 3: out there like may cause death, you know, like, well,
29:46
Speaker 3: that's a great medication. Thanks for that.
29:48
Speaker 2: You know, like, not sure I want to love that
29:51
Speaker 2: side effect.
29:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, right. Like, let's just do it. Let's do it.
29:54
Speaker 3: You know, so said no one ever, you know, so
29:58
Speaker 3: it's like, There has to be a better way to
30:01
Speaker 3: do things. So developing that side of things more. We have,
30:06
Speaker 3: of course, you know, some more music that we're looking
30:08
Speaker 3: to write. We have recently, we have some sound bath
30:12
Speaker 3: elements to the work that we do and guided meditation,
30:16
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. So we're going to work on
30:18
Speaker 3: that album as well over the winter.
30:20
Speaker 2: How do you do a sound bath? Like, do you
30:23
Speaker 2: really go in the bath and just have speakers just
30:26
Speaker 2: positioned the right way or what?
30:28
Speaker 3: That would be amazing. I like your vision. Basically it's
30:32
Speaker 3: this whole idea of, you know, just really immersing people
30:35
Speaker 3: in sound. So, and that's like.
30:38
Speaker 2: Being in the middle of the orchestra like that.
30:41
Speaker 3: Exactly. So, and there is science behind this. So, so
30:44
Speaker 3: the idea of truly surrounding people with separate channels of
30:49
Speaker 3: sound for each voice that you want to bring out
30:52
Speaker 3: essentially affects people in a very impactful way. There's a,
30:57
Speaker 3: like emotional reaction that happens. And so I want to
31:01
Speaker 3: explore that a little bit more. In fact, Taking Flight,
31:04
Speaker 3: the film, we're working on an immersive show, I guess,
31:09
Speaker 3: or installation at Kaneko, one of the major art museums
31:13
Speaker 3: in the Midwest. That's kind of like the next step
31:17
Speaker 3: for it. So it's hopefully we can get all the
31:19
Speaker 3: money raised for it. Essentially the vision, if money were
31:22
Speaker 3: no issue would be to have a completely circular screened
31:27
Speaker 3: environment that would have the film projecting on it. And
31:31
Speaker 3: then sound channels that would also surround the listener. So
31:35
Speaker 3: like you could really be immersed in that migration and
31:39
Speaker 3: the music as well.
31:41
Speaker 2: So that would be just the most amazing thing. I
31:45
Speaker 2: know one of the cool things that I've gotten to do, I've,
31:48
Speaker 2: I was on a boat and we went to the
31:50
Speaker 2: middle of a lake and we're in like a reed
31:52
Speaker 2: bed in the middle of the lake and it wasn't
31:54
Speaker 2: very deep there. So we're standing in the middle and
31:57
Speaker 2: it was right at dusk and all these little swallows
32:00
Speaker 2: were like swooping down all over, eating all the bugs
32:04
Speaker 2: that were right over our heads. And they were all
32:07
Speaker 2: concentrated around this reed bed and their cute little tweets
32:10
Speaker 2: and stuff and everything that they made. It's like, I
32:13
Speaker 2: have definitely seen swallows flying in flocks around like eating
32:17
Speaker 2: the bugs, but I had never heard or experienced it
32:21
Speaker 2: being in the middle of a flock like that. So
32:24
Speaker 2: that's kind of what I'm envisioning, what you're talking about
32:28
Speaker 2: with the theater experience with this film. That sounds awesome.
32:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's something that's really special about you know,
32:36
Speaker 3: just really being immersed in nature. And for some people,
32:39
Speaker 3: you know, they're not going to be able to make
32:41
Speaker 3: it to see that migration. And so being able to
32:43
Speaker 3: kind of recreate it in an accessible way, you know,
32:47
Speaker 3: for somebody is pretty neat. So I love that experience
32:50
Speaker 3: that you shared. That's awesome.
32:51
Speaker 2: And I'm seeing how you are taking elements of your life,
32:57
Speaker 2: such as your enjoyment for nature and seeing the beauty
33:02
Speaker 2: in these birds and And you're bringing those loves together
33:07
Speaker 2: with your love for music. And I hear lots of
33:11
Speaker 2: musicians say this all the time, but music is medicine.
33:16
Speaker 2: And you are just proving that one. See, that one
33:21
Speaker 2: I think is a rule. I think that one is
33:23
Speaker 2: like a legit rule. That's like good to go. Music
33:25
Speaker 2: is medicine. And I think that what you're working on
33:29
Speaker 2: is just, it's proving it like, Absolutely. Typically and stuff
33:33
Speaker 2: that is like incredible. I love it.
33:35
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:37
Speaker 3: And those sound bath elements that you talked about. So
33:39
Speaker 3: essentially the same thing happens. We have singing bowls, um,
33:42
Speaker 3: those sound waves that emit from those singing bowls, uh,
33:45
Speaker 3: cause entrainment in the same way that repetitive rhythms from
33:48
Speaker 3: like a looping station or what we're playing does. Um,
33:51
Speaker 3: and then that helps people to relax. So, um, it's
33:54
Speaker 3: kind of a new newer thing, but these sound baths
33:57
Speaker 3: are happening all over with, um, different, uh, groups or
34:01
Speaker 3: bands or artists that are providing them for people?
34:03
Speaker 2: Well, we're getting all kinds of cool new ideas today.
34:09
Speaker 2: You don't just have to do it like everyone's done
34:13
Speaker 2: it before. You don't have to just play in an orchestra.
34:16
Speaker 2: There's tons of cool creative ideas of things that you
34:19
Speaker 2: could do. And I think one of the biggest lessons
34:23
Speaker 2: that we can pull from all of your stories is
34:28
Speaker 2: and all of the stories that are going to come
34:31
Speaker 2: on this show is that you can find more joy
34:36
Speaker 2: in your life when you have the freedom to pull
34:40
Speaker 2: together all of the different elements of what you love.
34:44
Speaker 2: Would you agree?
34:46
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think that that's why it's so important.
34:49
Speaker 3: And this is something I'm really passionate about as a
34:51
Speaker 3: musician and mentor. It's so important for our culture, for
34:58
Speaker 3: our society to support artists. And not just those that
35:02
Speaker 3: maybe buy into the traditional job system, right? We need
35:08
Speaker 3: some sort of income support, disability, unemployment. I mean, all
35:14
Speaker 3: of these things. If you're a gig worker, there's no
35:16
Speaker 3: safety net. And maybe it's just kind of the age
35:20
Speaker 3: bracket that I'm in right now. There are a lot
35:23
Speaker 3: of major Grammy award-winning musicians right now who are out
35:27
Speaker 3: of work, who can't function, world-class artists because of health issues.
35:32
Speaker 3: And the only resource for folks like, you know, them
35:37
Speaker 3: is to just take time off. And so, you know,
35:40
Speaker 3: thankfully I think communities are kind of coming around to
35:42
Speaker 3: support them, but this is something that I think needs
35:45
Speaker 3: to be addressed in a serious way for people with politicians,
35:51
Speaker 3: with different organizations. Maybe we start at a city level
35:54
Speaker 3: and then we go out, but It's really, really a problem.
35:58
Speaker 3: And especially now, you know, with the inflation and just
36:01
Speaker 3: the general cost of living going up so much, it's
36:04
Speaker 3: really hard to make it. So people need support.
36:07
Speaker 2: I agree. And, you know, sometimes I feel like this
36:13
Speaker 2: message that we get from society as artists is that
36:17
Speaker 2: the work that we do and the things that we
36:20
Speaker 2: create aren't really worth anything. It's like, oh, well, you
36:24
Speaker 2: guys could come play that show for free, right? It's
36:27
Speaker 2: going to be great exposure.
36:29
Speaker 3: Oh, how many times have we all heard that?
36:34
Speaker 2: Yes, I feel like this one is going to be
36:36
Speaker 2: a whole episode in itself for sure. Because, you know,
36:41
Speaker 2: without being able to go to a bank with your
36:44
Speaker 2: idea and be like, here's like, I have this really
36:47
Speaker 2: great idea. It's going to benefit all of society if
36:51
Speaker 2: we could just get some funding to make it happen. Yeah,
36:56
Speaker 2: it's so much harder for artists and creatives to get
37:01
Speaker 2: funding in those situations than it is if you're just
37:04
Speaker 2: a traditional business. So this is something else that I
37:10
Speaker 2: want help artists overcome and realize their value in what
37:15
Speaker 2: they create. Because what would a film be without the
37:19
Speaker 2: music in the background? You were talking about how it
37:23
Speaker 2: affects your emotions. I will tell you that even if
37:26
Speaker 2: the bad guy dies in a movie and you put
37:30
Speaker 2: in the sad piano music, I will be crying. I
37:34
Speaker 2: didn't even like that guy. Now he's dead. And for
37:37
Speaker 2: some reason, I'm crying. Count on it.
37:40
Speaker 3: Look over and be like, there it is.
37:43
Speaker 2: It's the piano that gets me. So, and you know,
37:48
Speaker 2: what would a poster be with just some words on
37:52
Speaker 2: it without any images or anything like that? And, you know,
37:56
Speaker 2: we all like watching these videos and the little short
38:00
Speaker 2: form videos and stuff like that, but not everybody has
38:03
Speaker 2: those kinds of creative skills to put that kind of
38:05
Speaker 2: stuff together. So are you kidding me? The things that
38:08
Speaker 2: we're doing hold an incredible incredible amount of value so yeah.
38:15
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of that for us as
38:17
Speaker 3: artists is educating people not only fellow artists how to
38:21
Speaker 3: protect your intellectual property but and maybe more importantly board
38:26
Speaker 3: members funders presenters you know this is of value and
38:31
Speaker 3: this is why and how to negotiate those things and
38:34
Speaker 3: advocate for yourself and what you're creating you know I
38:37
Speaker 3: think that's a lot of it I've seen it a
38:39
Speaker 3: lot in the orchestral world. You know, one of the
38:41
Speaker 3: big hot topics this week in the orchestral world is
38:43
Speaker 3: the Nashville symphony shutting down for the rest of the
38:46
Speaker 3: season because of basic insolvency. Essentially they had one major
38:51
Speaker 3: funder who died and they kind of pissed her off
38:54
Speaker 3: a few years before. So she stopped giving as much
38:57
Speaker 3: money to the orchestra. And then if this is their
38:59
Speaker 3: backup plan, you know, so there's a lot of change
39:02
Speaker 3: that I think is happening in the industry. Um, the AFM,
39:06
Speaker 3: the Musicians Union, is starting to recognize the value and
39:09
Speaker 3: importance of entrepreneurs within the musician field, because I think
39:12
Speaker 3: more and more of us are finding that we have to,
39:15
Speaker 3: pardon the pun, but do things differently, right? You have
39:19
Speaker 3: to get resourceful and creative with what you're doing. And
39:25
Speaker 3: the majority of what I saw, and this is part
39:28
Speaker 3: of the shift from the orchestral world, sure you can
39:31
Speaker 3: get a job in LA or New York or wherever
39:34
Speaker 3: right but the salary that's attached versus the cost of
39:37
Speaker 3: living good luck you know one of my former students
39:40
Speaker 3: got a major symphony job one of the top five
39:43
Speaker 3: I would say and was living without any furniture in
39:47
Speaker 3: their apartment because they couldn't afford to buy anything. And
39:51
Speaker 3: this is one of the top orchestras in the world.
39:54
Speaker 3: So there's a little bit of a disconnect there. And
39:57
Speaker 3: I think that's what we're seeing, you know, Cleveland Orchestra's
39:59
Speaker 3: on strike, San Francisco Opera, I don't know if they've
40:01
Speaker 3: resolved either one of those, but there's a reason why
40:04
Speaker 3: these organizations and the musicians within them are starting to,
40:07
Speaker 3: you know, raise awareness and refuse to work because they
40:11
Speaker 3: can't afford to live anymore.
40:13
Speaker 2: So... And I do think that the more we have
40:15
Speaker 2: these conversations together as artists and the more we build
40:20
Speaker 2: communities together and start working together, we're going to have
40:23
Speaker 2: a little bit more leverage, even with what's going on
40:27
Speaker 2: with AI and music. I think that while everybody's going
40:31
Speaker 2: to be like, is this real? I want to see real.
40:34
Speaker 2: I think it's going to start getting us together face
40:37
Speaker 2: to face more. Being like, wow, I'm actually watching you
40:40
Speaker 2: play the instrument right now. Like I'm actually feeling the sound.
40:44
Speaker 2: I'm in the middle of all of it. It feels incredible.
40:48
Speaker 2: I think that there's going to be a little bit
40:51
Speaker 2: more of that in our future.
40:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so too. I think it's super important.
40:56
Speaker 3: I've played for a couple of different touring shows. The
40:59
Speaker 3: most egregious was they didn't even bother to plug the
41:03
Speaker 3: mics in for the orchestra. So they're just like tapping
41:05
Speaker 3: in the pre-recorded stuff. for the orchestra. And this is
41:08
Speaker 3: a major like touring group. So I think it's important.
41:12
Speaker 3: And the reason I bring this up, it's important to
41:14
Speaker 3: have some integrity with what you're putting out there as
41:16
Speaker 3: a show. And, you know, if you're going to bother
41:19
Speaker 3: to have live musicians, you should probably, you know, have
41:23
Speaker 3: the integrity to, to put them out there and through
41:25
Speaker 3: the house as well. So I think maybe what you're
41:28
Speaker 3: talking about, that in-person connection, that's super valuable, right. And
41:32
Speaker 3: definitely more impactful. But also, I think it will help
41:35
Speaker 3: the musician industry in that, you know, people want to
41:38
Speaker 3: see live musicians. They want to engage in that way,
41:41
Speaker 3: you know, not necessarily with AI music.
41:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So before we wrap this up, well, I
41:48
Speaker 2: guess I want to have the viewers have some takeaway
41:52
Speaker 2: from this. You know, take some inventory in your own life.
41:56
Speaker 2: What things right now might you be missing out on?
42:00
Speaker 2: And how can you introduce a little bit more joy
42:03
Speaker 2: into your schedule? And what does that look like? Because
42:07
Speaker 2: if you look for these opportunities, they're more likely to
42:11
Speaker 2: pop up and show up in your life. Darcy, before
42:15
Speaker 2: we go, where can people find you? And what else
42:20
Speaker 2: do you want them to know before we sign off?
42:23
Speaker 3: Um, belcantoduo.com, uh, go ahead and reach out there, um,
42:27
Speaker 3: or my website, darcygamroll.com. Um, but I think belcantoduo is
42:31
Speaker 3: a little easier, um, and expands a little bit more
42:33
Speaker 3: in the work that we're doing. Uh, most importantly for
42:37
Speaker 3: a takeaway, um, I just encourage people, if you've been
42:42
Speaker 3: considering maybe a career shift or, um, just not sure
42:46
Speaker 3: about taking the step, I would say, you know, go
42:49
Speaker 3: for it. If you have an idea or something that
42:51
Speaker 3: maybe you've been waiting to act on, go ahead and
42:53
Speaker 3: pull that thread, cause some good trouble and see what happens.
42:57
Speaker 3: I mean, why not?
43:01
Speaker 2: Why not?
43:02
Speaker 3: And, and see where it takes you, because I will
43:04
Speaker 3: guarantee you when you look back, you know, a year
43:07
Speaker 3: or two, maybe five years from now, um, It's going
43:11
Speaker 3: to be a pretty wild ride and an amazing journey.
43:13
Speaker 3: And it's about enjoying the journey, right? And living life
43:16
Speaker 3: because you never know how long you've got. So go
43:20
Speaker 3: for it.
43:20
Speaker 2: That's right. And there are so many opportunities to have
43:23
Speaker 2: joy with making music and also being able to make
43:29
Speaker 2: money and be sustainable on your own terms without the
43:33
Speaker 2: chains of slavery. So.
43:37
Speaker 2: I want to thank you so much for coming and
43:39
Speaker 2: sharing your story. I am looking forward to checking out
43:43
Speaker 2: that film and I'm definitely going to be going to
43:46
Speaker 2: your website and checking out lots more. I'm going to
43:50
Speaker 2: pass on you for sure.
43:52
Speaker 3: You're going to do.
43:54
Speaker 2: Some really exciting things. I can tell.
43:56
Speaker 3: Like I say, causing good trouble. Thank you so much
44:00
Speaker 3: for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed it.
44:03
Speaker 2: And for everybody else out there, start thinking about it.
44:06
Speaker 2: What are some things that you've heard that maybe you're
44:10
Speaker 2: living by that rule and you didn't realize it? It's
44:13
Speaker 2: time for a rule rewrite. So what rule are you
44:17
Speaker 2: going to rewrite?
44:19
Speaker 1: This is Heidselin, and you've been listening to Do Music
44:22
Speaker 1: Differently on W4WN Radio.
44:25
Speaker 2: Your next breakthrough could begin with one new rule.
44:29
Speaker 1: Scan the QR code or visit heidselincoaching.com slash let's chat
44:35
Speaker 1: and tell me what rule are you ready to rewrite?