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Why Christian Men Stay Stuck in Porn | Sam Black, Covenant Eyes. · Intentional Guy

• Sam Black: when I was 10 years old, I can remember coming out of my mom and dad's house, my my parents' house, and and my my brother was leaning up against his car. Now he's 10 years older than me, and he and his friend were looking at a magazine sideways, and that didn't make any sense. How can you read sideways? And Michael Chestnut: Mm. Sam Black: I asked them what they were looking at, and they turned it around. And it was, you know, a fully nude woman. And and I didn't turn away. I I got spritz of something that felt good. And I and I didn't step away. I I I took a step forward. I think a lot of of men listening here today are going to identify with is that they can probably remember that first exposure. I've talked to thousands of guys over the years. And I can tell you that almost Every one of them can remember a first exposure to pornography as a child. They Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: can tell you a whole story about it, but they can't tell you anything else about that day. Michael Chestnut: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Intentional Guy podcast. I'm Michael Chestnut. You know, there's a man sitting in church this Sunday who's carrying a secret. He sings the songs, he shakes the pastor's hand, and he's sure that if anybody in the building knew, he'd be done. So he stays quiet. And the church stays quiet too. My guest has spent almost 20 years trying to break that silence. He sat down with more than 70 pastors, counselors, and men who found their way out. And he wrote a book about the church and what it keeps getting wrong and how to fix it. It's called The Healing Church. He works with covenant eyes, and he's become one of the clearest voices out there for making the church a safe place for that man. Sam Black. Welcome to the intentional guy and thank you so much for being here today. Sam Black: Michael, thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Michael Chestnut: I am too. my listeners may not know you exactly, so could you give us a little bit about who you Sam Black: Sure. Michael Chestnut: are and covenant eyes? Sam Black: Sure. again, my name is Sam Black. I'm the director of recovery education at Covenant Eyes, and I've been with Covenant Eyes again for coming twenty years to come February. That's seems amazing, isn't it? That God had brought me in into this organization. it's its own God moment, but we don't have time for that to discuss that, do we? Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: my goodness. So Covenant Eyes was created twenty years ago to help men and women and teens begin to be accountable through a tool that would monitor your activities on your phones, tablets, and computers. And it would allow you to be open and honest with what we call an ally, someone who has your back, someone you trust that you that you know cares about you, who wants to see you succeed. And so you're helping them understand your journey, what triggers you face and those kinds of things. And you're using this software as a for The devices we carry around in our pockets all the time. This is the world's Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: largest library of pornography ever created in the history of mankind, Michael Chestnut: Yes. Sam Black: and we carry it around in our pockets. And so, how could we be more open so that we can be as Galatians teaches us to do the things we want that we want to do, that we truly want to be? And so Michael Chestnut: Right. Sam Black: you might find yourself in this sort of moral. conflict that says, I don't want this in my life. And yet here it comes back again and again and again. And so Covenant Eyes, through the Victory app by Covenant Eyes, we provide not only the monitoring for computers and tablets and and phones and help you connect with an ally so that you can have ongoing reporting, but we also provide tons of education to help people understand how did I get here? Why do I seem to stay Michael Chestnut: Mm. Sam Black: stuck? How can I walk in meaningful freedom? Michael Chestnut: Wow, I can't wait to talk a little bit more about covenant eyes. but before we get there, I I want to hit some of the information. So some some of the guys listening would be maybe a little bit more clear and go, okay, that's why I need that. And you know, I I I finished your book last week and it was really good. And I keep coming back, To the part where about the church, you know, you said that, the church should be a a safe place for someone to come Sam Black: what we need is a safe place and a safe process within the church so that people can come as they are, but in a church that love you too much to just let you struggle alone to leave you as you are. And and so the whole opportunity is I as someone who's struggling. want to come into an environment where I can be open and honest and and instead of being rejected, I'm loved and I'm cared for and I'm led in a process that helps me understand. Again, we go back to that. How did I get here? Why do I seem to stay stuck? How can I take meaningful steps toward freedom? And all of those are really important because so often we just sort of think about, well, especially within the church, that Men and women and teens, they suddenly are they're on their device or they're on the internet and they they see a pop-up or they see something provocative and they face a choice. Suddenly they have to click or don't click, right? They're they're gonna make Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: a choice. And often for that person who's been struggling for so long, typically since childhood, that it almost doesn't seem like a choice anymore. And so there are three common factors that we see in men and women and teens for those who are struggling, but especially for adults. The early exposure to pornography as a child, the ongoing use and repetition through adolescence, and often some trauma, some pain, some neglect, whether, and we'll come back to that. But those three factors. have been with that person for a long time and and pornography has sort of become this salve that the wife on the on the on the the wounds of their their pain whether it's and it becomes so commonplace that it expands not to just some neglect or some trauma but also I just feel bored now and I I can't Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: sit with my boredom. I need to reach out to something. I can't sit with my anxiety or frustration, or I didn't do well at work. And so I need an escape from that. And pornography has been a road that's been traveled so many times that it becomes, again, this ongoing coping mechanism for me just to live life. And Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: so instead of it just being, I hmm, that looks interesting. Should I click on that or should I not? It has suddenly become wired into our brains, not suddenly, but over time it has become wired Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: into our brains, our psychology, our very neurology. And and so and understanding that actually gives us a leg up and helps us understand, okay, I'm being triggered. This is what's this is where it's going. And I'm gonna Michael Chestnut: Right. Sam Black: get ready to go into a cycle. And man, we're we're gonna unpack a lot here, right? We just teased a whole bunch Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: of things about what a cycle? What What's these things? But I Michael Chestnut: Yes. Sam Black: I think just if I may, my own story kind of helps illustrate this. That when I was 10 years old, I can remember coming out of my mom and dad's house, my my parents' house, and and my my brother was leaning up against his car. Now he's 10 years older than me, and he and his friend were looking at a magazine sideways, and that didn't make any sense. How can you read sideways? And Michael Chestnut: Mm. Sam Black: I asked them what they were looking at, and they turned it around. And it was, you know, a fully nude woman. And and I didn't turn away. I I got spritz of something that felt good. And I and I didn't step away. I I I took a step forward. But I also had a friend, and his dad had pornography that was falling out of his closet. I could take anything I wanted. It looked a little like a waterfall, if you would, just your normal closet, Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: and there's a shelf up top, and the pornography is kind of flowing over, dumping onto the floor. And I can take anything I want, and I do. The third part, the third factor that we talked about earlier, is even though I came from a Christian home, it was a strict and abusive and violent home where for my father. And so I didn't recognize at first that I could go to pornography and it was alleviating my thing. Feelings of stress and fear and frustration, or I didn't do well at school, or some I got maybe I got picked on, or maybe I'm not feeling good about myself. All the things I Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: I just began running to it. Now, what might be interesting, and I think a lot of of men listening here today are going to identify with is that they can probably remember that first exposure. I just told you, you know, I was 10 years old. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: I can't tell you anything else about that day. But I can remember my brother standing up against this car, being a sunny day. I'm coming out of my house in Florida. All that is right vivid. And why? Michael Chestnut: Yes. Sam Black: Because dopamine fired off. It's and every child is naturally curious about the opposite sex being naked. And dopamine fires off that says, hey, this is interesting. This is rewarding. I think you're gonna like this. And dopamine is also associated with memory. So it helps burn those memories into our brain. But I was also a little nervous, right? what if mom and dad come out? I don't think they'd like this. If we get caught, I'm gonna get in trouble. So norepinephrine is also associated with it. It gives you a spritz as well. And it's also associated with memory. So those combinations of factors help burn that memory into my brain. I tell I've talked to thousands of guys over the years. And I can tell you that almost Every one of them can remember a first exposure to pornography as a child. They Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: can tell you a whole story about it, but they can't tell you anything else about that day. Michael Chestnut: yeah. I I can relate to that very much so. Sam Black: this is sort of a trap, right? We're it's this Michael Chestnut: Right. Sam Black: is probably one of the greatest traps of Satan is I'm I'm setting you up. and and if you are a man or woman or a teen who's struggling with pornography intensely, you were set up. I mean, this is not how God intended our our for our bodies and for our reaction to sexuality. God made sex a beautiful thing for marriage. And pornography is not sex. Pornography is a hijacking of what God created. Michael Chestnut: Well, how do we make a safe place though with a safe process? Because the church sometimes portrays more shame towards this. So, like in my story, when it was clicking an innocent email late at night one night, Sam Black: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: and that started my rabbit hole into pornography. And then into lust and kept going. And I wanted, I wanted help. I knew it was a problem. I I Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: I knew it was controlling me. But the community that I came from, the d denomination I came from, we didn't talk about these things, right? Sam Black: Right. Michael Chestnut: And I had never ever in my life until through all this, seen a man. be restored from something Sam Black: Mm. Michael Chestnut: like this. All I ever saw was a man being kicked when he was down, r ridiculed and ashamed, Sam Black: Mm. Mm. Michael Chestnut: So I was not gonna reach out to anyone. And then the Sam Black: Mm. Michael Chestnut: FBI showed up at my door one day and my world just went crashed, and Sam Black: mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: I I went on a fifteen year path of restoration from it because trying to find the right people who would accept me and help me was difficult. Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: And and I think that's where the church has missed it a lot is that examples of, I mean I I was in my 30s and never seen anyone 40. I was in my 40s, never seen anyone restored. Sam Black: Yeah. You know, we can Often in the church, and I and I say this in the book without there's often the spectrum within the church. And on one side of that spectrum is you can't be a Christian and have sinful struggles in your life. Because if you have sinful struggles in your life, maybe you're just not one of us. You don't belong. And so in that environment, people hide their struggles because they need to look good. Because if I look good enough, you can love me. You can respect me. On the other side of that spectrum is, hey, you're welcome. No matter what you've done, in fact, we've all got problems. We've all got struggles. We've all got issues. You don't even have to say what they are. You're just welcome. And we we won't really talk about it. We'll just talk about Jesus loves us. And and in that environment, nobody really talks about the issues either. And they never have a pathway to restoration. No change happens on either side of that spectrum. No change happens on the spectrum where it's strict and we've got everything together and we're not going to tell anybody where we don't have it together. And now on the other side, we don't find any change either. And so what we need is a middle ground where it's okay to come as you are, but we believe that God has called us to something more. That he has indeed set some standards. That there, if you're having what we often call moral incongruence, where this this isn't who Christ said I should be, and I don't think I I'm not living up to his standards. And but I need a place where I can come and talk about that and why am I struggling the way I am? And so, in that way, in that place, you create a safe place where it's okay to come and talk about where, what, why you're where you're struggling, why you're struggling, and thinking about as best you can. But then you also have a safe process from people who have been there before and understand. W why we struggle the way we do. And in that Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: way, I can learn to grow in freedom because I don't know how to do it myself. I built a cage of my own making, built it block by block and bar by bar, and it was comfortable. And leaving it was uncomfortable. And Michael Chestnut: Yes. Sam Black: so I needed someone who could walk alongside me. And as the book says, when one of the pastors talked about, you know, nobody keeps the key to their cage. Everybody throws it away. And you need someone else to come and help you unlock the door and then walk you out and take one step at a time. Because left Michael Chestnut: Yes. Sam Black: to my own devices, even if I step out and you've helped me step out, if I if I don't know where to step next, I'll just go back to the cage because that was it Michael Chestnut: You're comfortable. Sam Black: it it's. At least I know what it's what it's like. I might not like it. It stinks. It smells bad. But Michael Chestnut: It's it's familiar. Sam Black: but it's familiar. But Michael, I've got you and you're walking with me one step at a time over time. And I get to learn and grow. And I can learn to sit with the emotions that I that I always want to soothe. I get to learn to do that. I get to learn to understand the impacts of Maybe some early childhood things that happened in my life, I get to understand how I programmed my brain over time over thousands of excursions with pornography. To actually rewire my brain to crave it more and more. And how God designed my brain for renewal. He designed our mind, body, and spirit. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sam Black: And so, but I I need some help. And if I try to do this on my own, my willpower never lasts. So I need community. I need others in my life who are continually feedback and help me grow. And and help me unwind understand. Okay, you hit a slip. Let's talk about that. What happened? Okay, well, what happened earlier? What happened before that? And what happened before that? What led up? To this time where you felt you hey, you made a commitment that you weren't gonna look at pornography anymore. And you did. So let's unwind that. Well, I had a bad day at work. Well, what happened? Well, my boss yelled at me and I didn't You know, I I I just got mad and and then I went home and I I I watched pornography. Well, no no no. So what were you feeling when your boss yelled at you? Why did he yell at you? Well, I missed a deadline. I should have been getting this stuff done, but I I didn't get it done and it makes me feel really inadequate at work and it reminds me of my dad when he used to yell at me, you know, these things. You know, it just there's a snowball Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: effect where these emotions begin to build and then I want to escape. And so just a little fantasy begins for my escapism. And once that cycle of addiction begins, where there's a trigger top of the top of the cycle. And then Michael Chestnut: Right. Sam Black: I begin to to let that trigger take root. Or, you know, I I want to I that that's frustrating. I don't know how to deal with that. I'm not comfortable dealing with that emotion. It feels uncomfortable. And then I begin to fantasize to let something to escape from that. Or because I've engaged a trigger that's actually sexual in its in the first place. Maybe I and then I act out and then I feel this horrible shame and I feel that shame is overwhelming. And so I'm Triggered again and this whole cycle just continues to go and go Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: and go. And maybe I try harder for a while to stop and it works for about a week and or less. And then some other trigger happens and then I'm back in the cycle again. And so what we want to do is people break that cycle up. Like, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: okay, so you had a a trigger. you know, my boss yelled at today, Michael. I just want to let you know how I'm feeling. I'm feeling frustrated and angry Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: and betrayed. And I I I it's it's not right what he did. And it's making me feel these other things, but I'm gonna call you first because I don't want to go on that cycle. I'm not going Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sam Black: back I'm not going back there. I'm gonna and you help me kind of walk me through what I'm what am I feeling? What am I thinking? What am I doing? And what am I thinking of doing? Because what I'm feeling. gonna lead to what I'm thinking and what I'm thinking and lead starts to lead to what I'm thinking of doing and doing. And we can Michael Chestnut: Yep. Yep. Sam Black: we can interrupt this this cycle so we get to learn to live not in just, well had a few days good days or a good week or two weeks or whatever, but lasting freedom. We can have this. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Yeah. you know, I I fear a lot of people we just accept it. It's part of our world now. We Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: we just accept it. And like one of the struggles we have at our church, we try to start a men's group for this, but you might Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: as well s put a sign up that said, and so we haven't figured it all out yet, but you might as well put up a sign and say, Hey, I'm I'm the pervert. Who's watching porn, I'll sign up for that group, right? So Sam Black: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I know that when I was reading your book, I have to be more creative in reaching out so that those men know I'm available and that can be more anonymous for them to reach out to us Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: is what would your experience say? Sam Black: Well, some t some churches have th this well built in. And I wrote the book not from an a whole bunch of examples of churches that were getting ro getting it wrong. I wrote the Healing Church by interviewing churches that were getting it right. What were they doing that other churches can copy to That's the whole purpose behind the book. It's a primer to where other pastors and ministry leaders are saying, hey, this is what we did in our church and it's working, and here's how it worked. it's really a primer to help pastors and ministry leaders understand how to, again, how do people get where they get? How do they why do they just stay stuck and not just, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit. Why why can't they just make that choice? And then how can we really help them move forward? So In a larger church, it doesn't matter the size of the church. We often think it does, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: but it really comes down to are we going to create opportunities for vulnerable connection? And sometimes it's not so much that you are creating, let's let's do the porn group. Maybe Michael Chestnut: Right. Sam Black: It is a study that is really helping people be vulnerable and honest and open to one another. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: in f one of the churches in Fort Worth, Texas, the pastor wrote a curriculum called Life Change for Every Christian. And Dr. James Reeves in that in that allowed people to kind of get in con touch with what are what are the places where God is wanting to do something. serious in my heart and life. What are some hangups that I have or some sin in my life that is keeping me away from all that God wants for me? And and in that sphere, and this wasn't the class for the sickles, it was the class for everybody. If you're coming into the church, we think you should be part of letting God change your life. We want Jesus to come Michael Chestnut: Right. Sam Black: and have an impact on your heart. And so, and to do that, we think you should join this class. We will start one. We're it's an ongoing thing, and we start a new one every 12 weeks or whatever, and we've got you you go. It's just part of who we are, right? Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: And so some people are discovering, well, yeah, I've been struggling with food a a lot. Or I've been, I have Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: I secretly struggle with some alcohol, or I have a lot of pride in my life. Or I I f have a fear of other people, you know, in the sense of I I don't feel I can be open and honest with others, that others are maybe always judging me. So maybe I'm struggling with pornography. Well, it doesn't have to be everybody knows everybody else's problem, but they get begin understanding what does this look like? And then from there, they stepped into they've they've got, you know, it's only a church of I think their average attendance is two fifty, three hundred, something like that. And they've got 30, 40 guys in their sexual recovery groups. Michael Chestnut: Wow. Hmm. Sam Black: on a regular basis. So now admittedly some people are coming from other churches, but then they've got groups for other people, et cetera. And your church does celebrate recovery. And and one of the beautiful Michael Chestnut: We do. And that's been such a big blessing. Sam Black: and one of the beautiful things about celebrate recovery or re regeneration recovery, either one, regeneration was born out of celebrate recovery, is everybody gets to learn the 12 steps. Where were you at? You get to discover something about yourself and then you can once you when you walk that's twelve steps are really for everybody. my goodness. There's Michael Chestnut: Yes. Yes. Sam Black: and but those within those groups they get to split out and have conversations with with one you know with with smaller groups outside the large group. Now another rate. Michael Chestnut: Right. Yeah, I love the share groups that we do. The share groups is where they really the men really open up and I you know, I find I I I found out like with pornography and lust, it kind of goes hand in hand with a lot of other addictions as well. Sam Black: Sure, cross addiction is very common. Let me give you one more example. And sometimes you might have a a champion in your church or someone who's talked about this in the past. And as they share their story, and you create an opportunity for guys to find a pathway to get either to that champion or you preach messages that allow it to be safe to come to your ministry team and say, This is a place where I'm struggling. And then the and then the leadership can create opportunities for these kinds of groups or discussion groups. There Covenant Ice provides a great little workbook. It's called Life Change. It was written by Dr. James Reeves, who I talked about earlier. Dr. James Life Change, a biblical journey toward freedom. And it is an introduction to the 12 steps. It's not a 12 step program, but it's an introduction to the 12 steps that helped. Men and women and understand, hmm, here's the roots of my struggle, and here's my next steps that I can take. And you do that in community. Now, listen, I live in the middle of nowhere, Michigan. I am out. We might have more deer than people. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: And in my little church or where about 150 attend, we have a group for men that I lead with men in my church to help them understand and overcome pornography. And if my little church can do it, well, you can say, well, Sam, see, you you you know stuff, but really all it came down to was I got to be vulnerable and and share my story with a few guys, and then I became the safest guy in the room. And they said, Well, you know, I'd I'd really like to hear more about that. Can can you help me with that? It's like and we had a we had a a men's just a general men's ministry camp, you know, where we all got together and did some fishing and stuff like that. And then we got some serious conversations going. And we had a a speaker come in who was very honest and open about his own struggle. And from that, the guy says, You know, it's time to deal with this. Let's Let's get together and we'll do a group. And they did. It was very, very grassroots. But really, if you have a champion who says, I'm willing to talk about this and I'm willing to lead other men in a study. And so like Life Change, you got a workbook that walks you straight through it. It's got videos that go with it that are just free on the Victory app by Covenant Eyes. And it just, you know. These there's so much cool curriculum that are that is available. You don't have to have all the details figured out. That they have videos and workbooks and all Michael Chestnut: And that's what I love. I love things where Sam Black: of it just it's plug and play. Just go through it together. You just begin having conversations. Michael Chestnut: I love that because a lot of times we think we gotta reinvent a will. And today we have such great resources, like through Covenant Eyes, Freedom Fighter, there's a c pure desire and things like that. which which is great because we're we don't have to go hunt. These are things that are actually proven and are working currently with it. Sam Black: Yes, we've and there's and you know, Samson Society, Samson Society dot com. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: Maybe you're someone who's listening and you're going, you know, I don't think I have any group in my church where I can lean into this yet. But and and I live I'm like Sam. I live out in the middle of nowhere. Or maybe you live in the city, but you don't know how to get connected. Whatever it is, Samson Society dot com. Go there, you click on a link that says join a newcomer meeting. They walk you through what it's like to do an online meeting with other Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: guys who are within the same spot that you're in. And you get to join community and you stop do trying to do this by yourself. And you start engaging and you go like, man, where's where's this where's this community been through all my fight? I've and then you s you start seeing that that progress and change. Man, it is exciting. Michael Chestnut: Wow. Yes, when I f first went through my fall, I didn't know of all these groups. I didn't know of and and they may not have existed. It was about 20 years ago, but I I ended up in an essay group. And I I will tell you that was the most humbling moment of my my life. and they did a new Sam Black: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: member class that day. And what was great was God was in that room because in the new with SA and a new move members class, they go around and tell their story to the to the guy who's visiting. And in that I I got to realize, I'm I'm not alone. And they these a lot of them were Christian men, right? And so I got to share a little bit of my story with them. And they didn't flinch. They didn't flinch. Sam Black: Mm. Mm-hmm. Right. Michael Chestnut: They sat there and they listened. You know, and I was out of church at that time. because I didn't want to go to church. I didn't I I d I felt like that guy I talked about at the beginning, if people know me, they they won't want anything to do with me. but I think we should look at the numbers too. and you could tell me if I got these right or wrong. I've really tried to get to get them right. And you could help us understand these a little bit, but Christian Min, Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: back when you wrote your book in two thousand twenty three, and I think you got most of your data from twenty fifteen. Sam Black: It was the Barnus. Yeah. we the Covenant Eyes and helped create the first study with Barna. so it was called the for porn phenomenon. And so then Pure Desire sponsored the the follow up in twenty twenty thour, twenty three, twenty four, and it was beyond the porn phenomenon. It was so it was just building off of that prior that prior survey. Which is really good, which Michael Chestnut: What? Sam Black: is kind of cool because it showed that when we back in 2015, only seven percent of churches provide support. And in the more recent study, ten percent. So it's growing. There's Michael Chestnut: It's growing. Sam Black: more more engagement. Michael Chestnut: And hopefully it'll start growing more. I mean, because the other numbers are growing too. Sam Black: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: because now seventy five percent of Christian men in church. So if we have a church full o of a hundred men, seventy five. Sam Black: At least occasionally. Michael Chestnut: L. Sam Black: Seventy yeah. And and one you know, I understand that we're we're human and there can be temptations, etc. my bigger concern is for that thirty-three you know, about thirty-three percent of all men say they're watching pornography at least multiple times a week, if not daily, and it's showing here twenty-seven Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: percent. watch every day. That is that is impactful. that Michael Chestnut: Yes. Sam Black: means we've got a real, not just a a little bit of temptation, and hey, we all need we all struggle with temptation. And no, some of us are there's a good chunk of men and women who are struggling with addiction and that needs care. Michael Chestnut: Well, I I f I thought two there's a couple things I found interesting and and more educated than this when I when I was reading your book was the the amount of Christian women who Sam Black: Mm-hmm, rain. Michael Chestnut: watch porn, you know, and I I feel s it's hard for a man to to go and admit that. I can't imagine how Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: a woman would feel safe talking to some other Sam Black: So hard. Michael Chestnut: women because you know we will put a label on a woman quicker than we would the man with it. You know, Sam Black: Sure. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: so I mean this just isn't a male problem. This just not a man's problem. A and Sam Black: That's right. Michael Chestnut: in the church, it's not just a man's problem. It's it's a Woman's problem too. So that to me that that opened my eyes with it. but then the numbers for no one's helping them, that broke my heart Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: because I related to that, because Sam Black: I don't have anybody to help me stop looking. Yeah, that's that's Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: hard. Michael Chestnut: And and and that's what had become my purpose. and and it took me on a fifteen years of journey. I had a pastor Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: after I fell, took me aside, someone I looked up to, and I thought he was going to encourage me. I was broken. I mean, I was broken. And Sam Black: Mm, mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: I was just wanting someone to help me, you know? And I remember he pulled me aside and he said, You you realize that God's done using you now. And it crushed me. Sam Black: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I didn't even want to live. That night I sat there with a gun because If God's done with me, what I got left? So when I look at those numbers, my heart just pours out for those men who feel like there's no one to walk alongside them. And some of that's shame, right? We're afraid how are people Sam Black: Mm, mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: gonna look at us? So shame and guilt, they were that was my best friend, shame and guilt. Sam Black: Yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: but then God brought me a man in my life, a stranger. I left Indiana came to Florida, met this pastor who didn't know me two hours after I got off the plane, took me to Wendy's. And I said, What the heck? And so I just laid it all out. He never flinched. And to this day, he's still Sam Black: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: walking alongside of me. And that's he didn't try to fix me. He didn't Sam Black: that's that's awesome. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: try to fix me. He he just walked with me. He Sam Black: Right. Michael Chestnut: just walked with me. So now that's what I'm Sam Black: Yeah, you know, Michael Chestnut: trying to do. Sam Black: you know, I say Jesus was the the pastor that said Jesus is done with you. I I wonder what if you remember what Jesus said when he met the woman at the well. And and she he is described you've you've had multiple bli people men in your life, and the one you're living with now isn't your husband. was Jesus done with her? No, no. In fact, she was so loved by Jesus that she goes and tells everybody in the whole town about what he said and done, right? Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: When the woman caught in in in adultery is thrown before Jesus' feet, and and everybody, you know, all the Pharisees and the etc. are standing around ready with their stones to stone her under the law. We're supposed to. She's supposed to be stoned. What does Jesus do? Does he abandon her? Does he say no? His daughter. His daughter. He tells them, Listen, all of you have in sinned through the first stone. And my daughter rise up. Go and send no more. Michael Chestnut: Hm. Yep. Sam Black: Jesus ain't done with us. Michael Chestnut: No. And you know, that was one of the reasons why it took fifteen years for me. but in that journey, I I realized I was living a performance based Christianity was what I was doing. And Sam Black: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I'll be honest, I I don't know how to say the articulate this, so I'll probably say it badly, but There are times I'm thankful for the fall because Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: in the in the long journey. And I'm glad I'm glad God didn't just heal me overnight. Didn't just I'm thankful for the 15 years, because in that 15 years, I got to see God in so many places. And I also got to learn a new reality of who Jesus was. And and that's made such a difference in my life. You know, go from hopeless to hope. Sam Black: And a difference in a whole bunch of other people's lives too. God can Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: use our own journey to help others on their journey too. Michael Chestnut: But I hope men look at these numbers that we've got on the screen because the numbers don't lie. And and we have a lot of men who are hiding this and walking this alone. And they don't need to. There are, like you said, there are enough resources out there now to do, you know. And let's talk about covenant eyes for a minute. You know, Sam Black: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: covenant eyes, I'm gonna have to confess some stuff to you here. So every time I meet, I wrote a I wrote my book about my story five years ago. And in the last three years, I've really been dealing with this on the podcast. And now I meet with at least two guys a week for coffee. Who will see the podcast or a friend refer them and we go have coffee and we talk about it, you know? Sam Black: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: and the first thing that I tell them to do is, you know, find out if they're ready. We, you know, where you at in it. But the first thing I push for them is to get coveted eyes. to get that on your devices and get that, you know, every device. And I'll be like, write down all the devices that you have. Sam Black: There you go. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: And then make them accountable that it's on it, right? Well, two years ago, we had four years ago, we had a car accident really bad. Two years ago, I was unable to work. And we had to make some cuts. And I was doing good, everything was going fine. So me and my wife, we we we were living on bare minimum. So, you know, I said, well, I don't need covenant eyes. I'm doing good. with it, let's we could do it. I got my accountability, partners, and everything else. So Sam Black: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: I say that, but then God's been convicting me this year because I'm sitting there, how do I tell men, other men, to have something that I don't have? But also I told my wife and I said, I I want to find the money to do it because if the enemy's gonna get me, It's gonna be in those devices. And I'm naive to think if I can't fall back. I mean, covenant of the eyes is not just for the guy who's watching port. It's also for the guy who doesn't want to be tempted by it and who wants to be protected by it. Sam Black: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: And so we came up with that decision. Okay, we're we're we're figuring it out. And I and I'm like, I'm not I'm not gonna be a hypocrite with that. And my wife agreed. My wife's like, no, if anything, you should have that, and she wants me to have that. gotta walk the walk to walk the, with it. Sam Black: yeah. Michael Chestnut: But I loved it because back w in the day, so Covenant Eyes when I didn't know the only thing I had was this pastor friend. Nobody back, that's over twenty years ago. I think there were I found triple porn dot church, something like that. There was back then. Sam Black: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: there was another thing. And he turned me to covenant eyes. And it saved me. It it really helped. I'm gonna tell you. So we he did what what I did, got all my devices, we put covenant eyes on it, and then he and another guy got my printouts and readouts with it. But just like a drug addict, I'm gonna tell you I had withdraw because I Sam Black: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: I started to have a temper tantrum because my body was craving that dopamine. And also I was having to retrain all the hurt. Yes, Sam Black: Struggle is real. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I had to retrain the hurt and the traumas and everything else. And I am so thankful for that tool because there was times I fell. And thank God I had I it's so important to have the right accountability people because they didn't come and throw stones at me. They did what you said earlier. They sat down. Okay, let's talk about that day. What happened? And you know, for Sam Black: So powerful. Michael Chestnut: the and man, I never had men in my life like that before that are gonna love me no matter what. And so I'm a big fan of Covenant Eyes because I Sam Black: Thank you. Michael Chestnut: know what it did for me, but I also know I need it to continue in this because. I'm helping men all the time. I told my wife it's hard to touch darkness and darkness not touch you back sometimes. And I don't want to be triggered and then fall back into something that I mean, I'm naive if I think that couldn't happen again. Naive. I I'm protecting myself, but am I? So I need to protect those devices. What would you add to Sam Black: Thank you. Michael Chestnut: the covenant I Sam Black: You know, at one, Covenant Eyes, you're so used to we're so used to saying, it's Covenant Eyes, you're putting Covenant Eyes your device. And Covenant Eyes has has continued to grow. So we kind of created Covenant Eyes as the umbrella organization, and then we have some tools underneath it. And now it's called Victory by Covenant Eyes. Victory is what you put on your devices, but you also have a victory app. There's two apps. One is Victory Shield, and it monitors, you put that on all your devices and you monitor it. And then the victory app is where you can not only engage with your ally, but your ally also gets the victory app by covenant eyes. And within there is more than 55 courses to walk you through again, how did I get here? Why do I seem to stay stuck? How take and that's that's part of your that's part of your work. So it's actually walking you through your recovery journey helping you understand why am i doing the things I'm doing when I don't want to do them. How can I what's some measures I can couldn't put in place. Maybe I I can go through this course with my ally and then they understand what I'm learning to understand as well. And so both Michael Chestnut: That's great. Sam Black: both get to be informed and grow tools to help you understand, okay, my I'm having some struggles with, you know, my wife just found out about this. how do I behave in a way that is responsible and supportive of her as she is hurting right now? What are steps that I can do? Well, Nate Larkin from the Samson Society wrote a whole course and there's a several in there by the way, in addition to his, but a course and how do how do you help her? How do you help her heal? So there are Michael Chestnut: Mm. Sam Black: so many tools in there. It's not just the accountability, but also a lot of the education. You get to do check-ins now right within the app. I just got a check-in from one of my guys today about he's saying, hey, I this is what I'm feeling. I haven't I haven't had any slips, but I've had some triggers and he gets to name those. And so I get to communicate back to him about right within the app. and so many more cool features are coming our way. It's gonna be really cool too. Michael Chestnut: I like that. I'm I've got to look into that because that will help me walking with them. I I you know, and there's nothing, man, it's so great when God can take your crap and use it. And I just I last night I had Sam Black: Yeah yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: a a guy I had coffee with get us 30-day chip. So proud, you know, just to watch that and to be a part of that. And and I love Sam Black: Wow. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: it because it stomps the head of that that was said to me that God. can never use you again. You know? And I get to sit there and go, thank you, God. Yep. Sam Black: Hmm, right? man, that's good. Thank you. That's good. Michael Chestnut: Yep. You know, one thing I like talking to the guy that says, I'm fine. I've a I'm amazed with this one. Okay. The guy who says he's he's fine with it. That doesn't think what's it say? It says 10 Christians who use porn, about five say they're comfortable with it. Okay, they're fine with it. And six out of ten Christians said a man can watch porn regularly and still have a healthy sex life. I think we're lying, you know, we're we're we're really good at giving excuses. I did a podcast and I called it Almost Honest because I will Sam Black: Mm, mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: get guys who will text me and say, Hey, I'm struggling with porn. I I and I'm watching it way more than I should. And then I'll you know, I'll tell you know, thank you for trusting me, you know, and let's let's get coffee. Let's sit down, let's get some coffee. But then they never they never meet because I think they because they sent the text, they feel Sam Black: Right. Michael Chestnut: like that that was accountability. And that's not accountability. Sam Black: Well, it was a moment of vulnerability. They they they had this a little bit of strength and they said, Yeah, I've just gotta do something. I'm I'm gonna meet with you and Maybe it's not quite so we we play this rationalization game with ourselves, right? Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: and you know, the that same study talked about the number of men who said they thought that pornography was good for their marriage, or good for, you know, would improve their sex life. What They miss is the studies that show that you're twice as if you're watching pornography, you're twice as likely to be get divorced. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Sam Black: That that doesn't add up with the the sexual satisfaction and the number of of studies that show long term monogamous relationships are the most healthy, the most sexually satisfying. I'm sorry. That people in long term monogamous relationships who are not watching pornography are the most sexually satisfied. And, you know, pornography teaches a sly that variety is a spice of life. You're gonna, it's gonna be better. But peop the studies after studies have said the more pornography you watch, the less likely you are to be sexually satisfied. You know, it's just you know, we corrupt God's design and and then wonder why it smells like a sales pool. Right? Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Sam Black: It's not it's not working. Michael Chestnut: Well, and I think we throw common sense out the door because the truth is if if you're watching porn, most of the time your self gratification as well is involved. And then Sam Black: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: you're not pursuing your wife anymore. And your wife wants to be pursued. And then you start seeing the sex life going down. Well, you know, she doesn't want to have sex with me. Well, you're Sam Black: Or unhealthy ex or unhealthy expectations Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: or feeling your spouse is not you know, the studies that show watching pornography you're less attracted to your spouse. you know, there's a lot there's a lot in there. What's distracting you from what is your the person you committed your life to? Michael Chestnut: Yep. And that's I think that's that's where we have Sam Black: Where where are your priorities? Michael Chestnut: I remember I told my wife, you know, 'cause I I ha I have coffee a lot with some of these men and stuff and I and something came up because one of the wives needed some help, so my my wife met and in my conversation and her conversation for her prepping She relayed to me that do you know you never once asked me how your porn addiction affected me? And I you talk about my stomach just went in knots because I hadn't because fear. I don't want to face her. You know, I I Sam Black: Sure. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: probably didn't want to know. I'm I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna fix this and I'm gonna do what I'm supposed to do. And that will be make her okay, but not realizing, you know, what psychological damage. affected her through those actions. And that was a eye-opening moment for me, but one I'm so glad we had, because that sparked a great conversation and helped me have a better understanding of my wife. And it also gives me a a better understanding of why I want so much to protect my purity, my eyes. and everything else from that. So but and I imagine a lot of women, I mean, what the what women go through it it it definitely does affect affect them. So we're not we're not just affecting ourselves. We're affecting them as well. So Sam, I got a question too though. We'll talk about this real quick. AI. I am getting more guys talking about AI pornography. I have no clue about it because I have you know, that's out of my scope right now. forever. I don't I don't wanna know, but they say it's even more addictive than regular pornography, is what I'm hearing. Sam Black: Hmm. Michael Chestnut: So I don't know if you guys have come across that. Sam Black: I I was talking to Michael Leahy of from Bravehearts and his concerns and he he's actually been doing some study on this. on I don't know personally all the de you know details on it, but you know, it's I I don't want to give too much information about, you know, where to get it or what to do with that Michael Chestnut: Yes. Sam Black: kind of thing, It doesn't matter what it is. We have to think about what It some people want to make the excuse, for instance, that, well, it's artificial intelligence. It's it's not real people. God doesn't see it that way, right? Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Yeah. Sam Black: We're we're still creating images of and and lusting. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Sam Black: and and I it just I I just think there's even extra caution when it comes to AI that you should e exercise because if you start going down rabbit holes and fetishes and the more and more and deeper and deeper you just find yourself in a in a world of hurt and a world of trap. Michael Chestnut: and it will feed you what you want. And then like you said, for me and my when I was at just with you know, back in two thousand six. So porn was not as easy to get as it is now. But I was crossing Sam Black: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: lines I said I would never cross. And that's that's pornography will do that. It will just take you further. Sam Black: Yeah. I I I I just encourage you my listening, don't even don't even think about trying to figure it out. Don't don't go don't go d don't go down that rabbit hole. That's just terrible. Michael Chestnut: Yep. And now does Covenant Eye does Covenant Eyes work with that? Sam Black: It doesn't matter what appears on your screen, it's capturing your screen. So whether it's AI or it's it's looking at images today, and if they appear on your screen, it it's doing continuous snapshots of your screen, and then artificial intelligence of covenant eyes is actually reviewing the content for its sexual content. And then before it ever leaves the device, it's blurred, actually obfuscated, so it can't be recreated or re-un undone. And You know, we want to protect all the data and everything else on your device so that any capture is again obfuscated, but it gives enough of the blurred blurring that you can say well I this is what you know, and what we think it is. Now Michael Chestnut: And your accountability partner would get that, right? Sam Black: they would get that. And if it's you know, of course we don't want just expose other people to inappropriate content. So it can be blacked out and on the other side and said just be careful. This is it could be suggestive because it's you know again obfuscated, blurred very deeply. but enough to say this is where it came from, this is what's going on. And here's an sort of this outline of what was on the screen. And so you get to have a conversation. Well, what what happened? What happened? What tell me what was going on before this that you decided that this was the best way to soothe? Because you committed to me that you didn't want to watch pornography anymore. So let's let's talk through that. Michael Chestnut: I love that. I love it. Well, first off, I want to thank you so much for being on the show today. We had to cancel because we were gonna do it earlier and I had Sam Black: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: my medical issues that just that had popped up. So thank you so much for being patient with that, but also thank you for being willing to come to my podcast and and talk to us. I you are Sam Black: it's been an honor. Michael Chestnut: You're on all these I I've I've watched several of your your podcast and I was like, I would love to have that guy on my on my show and God was fighting. God was fine, I was like, but Sam Black: Well, what Yeah, of course. Michael Chestnut: he he wouldn't be on my show. And then God's like, send an email. And so I did. I was really surprised because it was like the next day you sent me back and said, let's do it. And I and I just want to thank you for that. It's an honor to have you here. I've learned so much from your book. I've learned so much from this conversation and hopefully the men listening have got a lot. But before we go, is there anything you'd like to add or or say about, you know, your book, Covenant Eyes, any of those? Sam Black: Well the we have a ton of tools. Can I share my screen that that'd be okay? Michael Chestnut: You sure can. Sam Black: We are hosting this online summit with Samson Society. And Michael Chestnut: Okay. Sam Black: so it doesn't matter where you're at, the the the actual live event's going to be in Michigan, but you can register here. It's only 33 bucks. Cheap, three days of great speakers. And you get access to this for the next six months. you get five bonus speakers that people in person don't. get to see. it is just going to be incredible. John Lynch is the main speaker, but we've got great people like Counselor Jim Cress, Matt Winger. man, it is going to be so good. So I'll share this in the notes. And Michael Chestnut: Awesome. Sam Black: if if you can, I I really hope that you can come and join us online. I'll be one of the the live hosts. for the for the live for the virtual event. Me and Landon from our team, as well as one of the Samson Society guys, we'll be your hosts and we'll be doing Q<unk>A's and you'll get to ask questions and commu you know participate with everybody else who's online. it's gonna be fun. It's and it's gonna be just inspiring. Michael Chestnut: that's awesome. What date what date is that? Sam Black: that's gonna be October 23rd, 24th, and 25th. And you go, Well, Michael Chestnut: awesome. Sam Black: I can't I can attend one of those days, but I can't attend all of Well, you get all of the recordings for six months. It's it's awesome. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: that's great. Sam Black: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: That's great. well, thank you for that. That will be some that would be a great tool. And also some of the guys I'm working with, I think we may have to jump on that. Sam Black: I'd love for to see you there. Michael Chestnut: so I I will I God has I I love that God's turned my life around and I'm glad that he's been able to now start using it to walk with other men But more than that, I love knowing what it's like to be a godly husband and a godly father that my family can trust. Sam Black: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: That's that's that is huge for me. So well, Sam, thank you so much for being on here today. I really appreciate it. And to my listeners, if just remember, just keep being intentional. We'll see you next time.