Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Secret Life of Screens: AI, Emotion, and the Teen Brain [With Dr Jacqueline Nesi]

Transcript

The Secret Life of Screens: AI, Emotion, and the Teen Brain [With Dr Jacqueline Nesi] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Family Podcast. A couple
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: of months ago on Parental Guidance, you heard this, I no,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: I am a human who absolutely loves donuts. I am
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: just obsessed with them, but I am one hundred percent human.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: AI chatbots replacing real friends? Is it possible? Today on
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: the podcast, we discussed that with an expert who runs
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a substack, one of the best tech substacks in the world.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Jacqueline NeSSI Jackie NeSSI is from Brown University, asking the
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: question our AI companions replacing real friends because we know
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: that Ozzie kids are into them? Plus a brand new
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: study that Jackie's done, the surprising truth about smartphone checking
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and mood. How often do your kids pick up their
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: phones and what does it do to their own motions
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and their ability to be in the moment. There's stuff
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: for you, there's stuff for them. Stay with us. Hello
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real parenting solutions
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Coulson. Today I'm joined by Jacqueline NeSSI.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Jackie's a clinical psychologist and assistant professor at Brown University
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: and author of the popular weekly sub stack Techno Sapiens.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: I discovered a couple of months ago, and I literally
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: never miss an episode. An addition, I never missed the newsletter.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I love it, an email. Whatever it is, substack, I've
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: recently discovered it. I'm into it. Techno Sapiens is the
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: name of the substack. Jackie's research focuses on the role
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: of technology and kids' mental health, especially teens, and on
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: how parents can help. She's the co founder of Tech
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Without Stress, which provides online resources and courses for parents
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: raising kids in the digital age, put together with a
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Harvard research as well. We are talking about big guns
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk about all of that and more today. Jackie,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: thank you for staying up late to chat with me
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: on the podcast.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: So let's start off with AI bots. You referred in
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Techno Sapiens a couple of months ago to a new
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: article from common Sense Media looking at what's going on
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: with kids, friends and these brand new AI companions. What
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: did you discover and why does this matter for parents?
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So this is really I think kind of the
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: new frontier for parents when we think about technology and
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: the ways that it's impacting our kids. I think we
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: know that generative AI is becoming more and more commonplace,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: more ubiquitous. Kids and teens in particular are certainly using it.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: And this study from Common Sense Media in particular was
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: looking at AI companions, so basically the use of AI
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: for more emotional support, friendship, more sort of companionship. And
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: one of the most striking findings to me was just
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: how frequently kids are using these just how sort of
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: out there they are. So seventy two percent they found
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: of teens say that they've ever used an AI companion,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: which is much higher than I would have anticipated. And
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: it almost half or a little more than half of
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  Speaker 2: teens are regular users, so they're using these things, you know,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: at least a few times a month.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: This really surprised me as well. When we did this
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: on parental guidance, a couple of kids, we're just like, Eh,
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  Speaker 1: this is kind of dumb, not into this. If I'm
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: going to talk to somebody, I want to talk to
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: somebody real. But a couple of the kids were really hooked.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: They were really really dragged in. I know that a
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: lot of adults are using things like chat GPT as
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: a companion like as a conversation almost as a therapist,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: but character dot AI and the other one that I
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: can think of Israelica Replica. Yeah, they seem to be insidious,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: like once the kids start talking with them, the kids
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: don't want to let go, but the AI can pay
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: onion doesn't seem to want to let go either. Kay,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: spell it for the best.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: I don't need you being my best friend anyway. See. Yes, okay,
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  Speaker 2: here's something concerning who wants to go and the chatbot
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  Speaker 2: is trying to keep them engaged. That's very typical. Of course,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: they want users to stay online as long as possible. Yeah,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: I think this is this is tricky because I think
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  Speaker 2: right now we're in a phase where these technologies are
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  Speaker 2: being designed and in many cases they're being designed for adults,
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  Speaker 2: right They're they're not being designed specifically for kids or
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  Speaker 2: four teens, and so I think we do run a
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  Speaker 2: little bit of the risk of you know, are these
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: going to be safe for kids. One thing that I
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: worry about is what you're talking about, which is that
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  Speaker 2: some of the platforms are designed to increase engagement, so
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  Speaker 2: they're designed to keep the conversation going, you know, as
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: long as possible, And what that means is that sometimes
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  Speaker 2: you get into situations where maybe the chatbot is saying
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  Speaker 2: things to keep kids engaged, to keep them using them
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  Speaker 2: for longer, and that's not always going to be the
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: best thing for a given kid, depending on the situation.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I was talking to a parent just recently about this.
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  Speaker 1: Her son is having a really hard time socially, has
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: some neurodevelopmental challenges, and this mom said, when he talks
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: with the AI companion, he feels like he has a friend.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Do you think that teens are replacing real life friends
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: with AI companions? Is this something that is potentially going
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  Speaker 1: to I mean the numbers are staggering. Three quarters of
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  Speaker 1: kids have tried and half using them with some regularity.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Do you think that this is actually going to become
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: a thing? And what would you say to a mum
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  Speaker 1: who says, at least my son now has someone to
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  Speaker 1: talk to.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's important with this, just like it is
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  Speaker 2: with any other technology like social media or smartphones or
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  Speaker 2: whatever it may be, to not paint with too broad
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: of a brush, because I do think that there are
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: certainly kids using these tools in certain ways where they
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: can have real benefits. I think it is the case
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  Speaker 2: that there may be some kids who are struggling in
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: certain ways and their offline lives or who have you know,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: other things going on where then it is helpful for
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: them just to have another thing out there to get advice,
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  Speaker 2: even to ask about, you know, sort of social skills,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: to learn new things. Like. I certainly think that there
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: can be benefits for some kids. So I personally don't
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: think and I don't think the research right now would
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  Speaker 2: support the idea that this is all bad and that
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: we should be you know, and that yeah, and that
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  Speaker 2: it's bad for all kids at all times. I do
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  Speaker 2: think that with the current platforms, like I was saying,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I think that we need more safeguards in place. I
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: think that these things are being designed for adults, and
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  Speaker 2: we really need if we want kids to be able
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: to take advantage of the benefits of the platforms, they
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: really need to be designed for kids. And that means
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: having some safeguard, it's having some safety futures in place.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have an unanticipated question that just popped into
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: my head around this kind of technology and social media
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: more generally. I mean, this is your area of absolute
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: depth and expertise. The Australian government is introducing minimum age
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: legislation at the end of the year. Under sixteens won't
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: be able to access social media platforms without verifying their
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: age they need well, so if you're under sixteen, you
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: can't verify your age because you're under sixteen. You've got
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: to be able to sixteen to use the platforms. And
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: news just recently was that YouTube would also be included
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: in that legislation. What do you think about this idea generally?
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  Speaker 1: Is this a good thing or a bad thing that
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: the government is stepping in and saying the tech companies
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: can't be trusted with your children and we're going to
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: therefore introduced legislation to keep your kids safe from these nefarious,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: mendacious bad actors.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, you know, I see both sides of
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: this here where I think. On the one hand, I
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: do think that there there's always going to be some
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  Speaker 2: kind of age cut off for these types of tools,
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  Speaker 2: right so, you know, in the US, at least right now,
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  Speaker 2: it's effectively thirteen. Of course you can get on younger
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  Speaker 2: than that, but you know, generally most places they're setting
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  Speaker 2: an age limit and saying, hey, here's the age that
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  Speaker 2: we think it's appropriate for kids to be on these platforms,
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  Speaker 2: and so you can debate what is the best age
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  Speaker 2: for that. You know, some would say younger thirteen is better,
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  Speaker 2: some would say older sixteen is better. So that's one
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  Speaker 2: side of it that you know, you need to set
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: it somewhere, and so why not set it at sixteen?
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  Speaker 2: The biggest challenge that I see with it is that
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  Speaker 2: the implementation, I imagine will be very difficult, and I
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: could see a situation where you still get a lot
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  Speaker 2: of kids under the age of sixteen who are getting
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: onto these platforms, and then there's really no incentive for
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  Speaker 2: the companies to then make the products better and save
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: for four kids, because they can just say, well, there's
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: none of them on there. They're not supposed to be
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: on there. And so I think that, you know, ideally,
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  Speaker 2: I think you'd have kind of a two prong solution
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  Speaker 2: where you have a you have a minimum age whatever
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  Speaker 2: you decide that should be, but you also are taking
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: steps to improve the platforms themselves so that younger users
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: are having a better experience on there.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for that. So many things we could
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: talk about up next, though, we have to have a
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: chat about this study that you've just done recently looking
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: at the surprising truth about how often you check your
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: smartphone and what it does to your mood. Today, I'm
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast speaking with Professor Jacqueline NeSSI from
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Brown University, mum of two young kids, and the author
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  Speaker 1: of a brand new study looking at the surprising and
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: revealing truth about how often we check our smartphones and
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  Speaker 1: what it says about our moods, well at least for teenagers. Jackie,
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  Speaker 1: talk us through this study that you did and what
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  Speaker 1: we as parents need to know about our kids and
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: their smartphones.
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  Speaker 2: So this study was one that I did in collaboration
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  Speaker 2: with doctor Caitlin Burnell who is at the University of
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and we did the study
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: with the team team there at UNC. And what we're
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: interested in is whether the amount of times that teens
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: picked up their phones throughout the day had an impact
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  Speaker 2: on their mood. And so actually anyone can check the
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: number of times that they have picked up their phones
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: in a given day. If you have an iPhone, for example,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: you can go to your screen time app. Do you
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: have an Android, you can go to what's called Digital
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Well Being and it gives you a number of how
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: many times did you did you pick up your phone?
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  Speaker 1: I've just checked, I've just checked. I don't know you,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to confess this or not. Okay,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: you would know what the norms are? What would a
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: typical fifty year old man have for his daily pickup?
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Can I get an average just before I revealed?
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Oh you know what? I don't know for a typical
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: from a typical fifty year old man, I can give
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: you for teens.
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  Speaker 1: But what would the average team be?
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So in our study, we found the average was
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: one hundred and twelve times per day.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, okay, so hang on, I want to do
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: some quick maths before I reveal how many times I'm
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: looking at my phone per day picking it up? So
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: one hundred and twelve times a day? How many hours
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: would you say the average teenager is awake per day?
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: Is that like? Should we say fourteen hours? Fifteen hours?
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Would that be about right?
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, So if it's fifteen hours, that's seven and a
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: half pickups an hour, So that's one pick up less
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: than every ten minutes. That's on average, right, So the
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: average kid, yeah, once every ten minutes they're picking up
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: the phone and looking at it. That must be terrible
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: for productivity and terrible for getting into flow.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that there we know that
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: most people are picking up their phones a lot throughout
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: the day, and that, you know, we don't know in
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: this study, we don't know exactly, you know, when those
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: pickups were happening, if it was concentrated at certain times
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: of day. But certainly you would think also that if
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the pickups are happening, you know, in the middle of
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: the night or during the school day, or you know,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: during times when we would hope that other things are happening,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: like sleep or you know, engagement in the classroom, you
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: would think that that would have a negative impact on
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: productivity and focus.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, so how many times do you pick it up
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: h day, Jackie? Just i' got to know.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, let's see, my number was when I looked at
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: this ninety something. Wow.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm feeling better about life. I'm at forty four.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Forty four.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's not bad.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: That's not bad. I'll take that. Okay. So what did
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: we learn about these these children and their pickups and
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: their mood?
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there were two. I would say two main
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: takeaways from the study. So, so one was that teens
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: who were checking their smartphones you know, more frequently on average,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: they're picking them up overall more than their peers, were
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: also showing more like ups and downs in negative emotion
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: like sadness and anger, so kind of more variability in
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: their in their negative emotions. You know, we don't know
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: in this case what's causing what. So it could be
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: that kids who are already sort of having more mood
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: swings are more likely to be checking their phones, maybe
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: as a way to regulate, or it could be the opposite,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: that the checking of the phones is actually causing a
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: bit more up and down in their moods. So that's
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: what was one key finding. And then the other takeaway
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: was that, you know, looking sort of day to day,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: was that when teens had a particularly you know, bad day,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: so like lower positive feelings than usual on a given day,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: they actually picked up their phones more the next day.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: But interestingly, that was only for kids who had lower
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: levels of mindfulness. And so what we think might be
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: happening there is that this is sort of about kind
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: of emotion regulation. So maybe kids who are less kind
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: of mindful of all less present or maybe having more
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: trouble regulating their emotions. And so then when they have
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: a bad day, maybe they're turning to their phones to
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: help them feel better. So they're picking up their phones
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: more often as a way to feel better. This, you know,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: it could be good or bad. Right, It could be
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: bad if there's more effective ways they could be coping.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: It could be good if they're reaching out for support,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you know, if they're talking to family and friends, texting
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: and that kind of thing.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So that prompts the question when they do pick up
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: their phones, do you know what they're doing on them?
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Like where are they going with the pickup?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, we have a general sense of you know,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: we don't know for every single pickup, but interestingly, in
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: our sample, fifty percent of the pickups overall, you know,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: across all participants or for Snapchat, So that's definitely the
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: most common thing that they are doing is getting outo Snapchat.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: And again that could be could be good if they're
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: basically using it text to text and reaching out to friends.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: It could be bad if it's something that's you know,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: where they're scrolling or it's generally sort of not effective
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: for them in terms of coping. The next most popular,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: much farther behind that was Instagram, which was thirteen percent
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: of the pickups messages was twelve percent wow.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: And TikTok was not there.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Or TikTok was seven percent wow. So this was yeah. This,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: So the study was done in twenty twenty, and so
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: that's when the data was collected, and so TikTok at
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: the time was popular but not quite where it is now.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: So I imagine if we did it now we might
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: see some differences there.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, So the take home message really is kids may
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: be using their phone as an emotion regulation tool, and
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: that could be good or bad depending on what they're
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: doing as they use the device they're on. Their phone's
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: a fair bit we already know that. Where to from here?
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: What do we what do we really need to understand
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: at this point?
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think the I think that's very
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: true in terms of the takeaway. And I think the
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: other major takeaway is just that the effects of smartphones
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: on mood and on well being are actually kind of complicated.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of times we think that this
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: is this very simple smartphones are bad, Like that's sort
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: of the message that we get and how we come
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: into this thinking. But really it depends a lot on
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: kind of what kids are doing on their smartphones when
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: they're on there. It depends on who they are, right Like,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: individual kids are having different experiences on their smartphones depending
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: on a number of factors. In our study we were
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: looking at their levels of mindfulness, but it could be
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: a number of different things, and so the effects really
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: depend on who it is and how they're using it.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Jackie Nissi, clinical psychologists and professor at Brown University. Check
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: out the substack techno Sapiens. I'll link to that in
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: the show notes. And a course to help you with
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: your children and their screen time tech without stress. Again,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: I'll link to it on the show notes. This is
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: definitely worth taking a look at. Jackie's somebody who I
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: think is incredibly knowledgeable in these areas and you will
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: get so much from it. Jackie, thanks so much for
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: spending some time with us chatting about your studies and
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: what are kids doing online. Really appreciate it.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. More information and more resources from Happy families
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: dot com. Dot au