Latest / Foul Territory / Front Office Unfiltered w/Jim Bowden: Rangers-Mets deal, Debunking physicals, Helsley converting to SP?

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Front Office Unfiltered w/Jim Bowden: Rangers-Mets deal, Debunking physicals, Helsley converting to SP? · Foul Territory

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Front office and filtered a lot to get to. This
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: ends up being a very busy week right before Thanksgiving,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: deals getting done. Jim Boden joining us right now or
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: resident GM here on foul Territory. What were your thoughts
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: on Marcus Simeon and Brandon Nimmo flipping teams?
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: So?
• 0:21
  Speaker 4: I like the trade for the Rangers side of it.
• 0:23
  Speaker 4: Let me kind of go through how I view the trade.
• 0:26
  Speaker 4: So from the Mets perspective, you know, we want to
• 0:29
  Speaker 4: improve the defense. Run prevention is what David Stearns continues
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: to talk about. Marcus Simeon does that. He's a really
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: good defensive second baseman. He's a gold glover. Putting him
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: with Linder up the middle, that's going to help the
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: pitching staff.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: So I like that aspect of it.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: What bothers me, and the other thing I love about him,
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: of course, is his makeup, his character. He's a team leader,
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: he's a great teammate, He's got all the intangibles we
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: look for right and star players. So that's what I
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: like about him. What concerns me a little bit in
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: watching him last year is agent the client is getting
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: to him. In my opinion, from what I've seen, and
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: we've seen the home runs from twenty nine to twenty
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: three to fifteen. We've seen the on base go from
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: three forty eight three years ago to three.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Zero five this past year.
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: His bat speeds in the eighth percentile, his hard hit
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: rate in the seventeenth percentile. And although he had spurts
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: where it looked like, oh, Marcus is coming back, here
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: he comes, he had some stages at the end of
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: the year that they look like his old self.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: That's normally what happens when a player gets older. You
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: get flashes, but you don't get consistency.
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: And it reminds me a lot when I was watching
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Barry Larkin near the end of his career. I just
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: feel like three years at seventy two million is not
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: going to end well, especially from an offensive perspective. On
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: the other side, for Texas, this made a lot of sense, right,
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: they have to reduce payroll, so the non tender a
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: Doolas Garcia, they non tendered Jonah Hine. They trade Simeon
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: for Nimmo. Nimmo makes less money per year than Simeon does,
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: so financially it helps you want to repla Garcia's home runs.
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: Nimo does that twenty four, twenty three, and twenty five.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: The last three years, you put him in.
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: Left field, you put Langford and right, Carter and center,
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: and you're you're.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Outfield is set.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: The other thing it does it opens up second base
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: for Josh Smith, who deserves the opportunity to be an
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: everyday guy. And I think when you look at Nimo
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: the last couple of years, when they moved him down
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: in the lineup, his on base dropped from the three
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: fifties to the three twenties. I think Texas will hit
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: him at the near the top of the order. I
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: think you'll see the on base come back. And look,
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: his hard hit was in the eighty eight percentile. His
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: bat speed was just a tick above average. So I
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: think that Nimo being three years younger, I think that's
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: the better side of this deal.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: At least that's my take.
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna go to the Simian side of this. If
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: you're New York, you're you're David Stearns and you picked
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: him up here, you saw it with Barry Larkin.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: How do you.
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: Curve that that age decline? How do you make it?
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: Because he's a guy who absolutely wants to be out
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: there every single day. Is it playing time? Is it
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: amount of time that he's that he's out on the
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: field because he's one hundred and sixty two game guy,
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: if he is what he considers healthy, or do you say,
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: you know what, We're running it until it drops and
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: then we're going back to you know, Luis anghel Acunya,
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: we're going back to whatever we had before. If you're
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: the GM making this trade, yeah, I think if you're.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: The GM making the trade, you think I'm wrong, and
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: you think he's not in decline and you think he's
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: going to be a comeback Player of the Year candidate.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: Otherwise you don't make this trade now. To your point,
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: and I agree with it. You know, you get through
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: a certain age, back off a little bit instead of
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: playing one hundred and fifty one hundred and sixty games,
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: Let's let's dial it back to one hundred and thirty
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: five to one hundred and forty.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: Let's try to keep the legs healthy.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: Let's see if we can get a couple more years
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: out of you by taking care of your legs.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: As you get older. So yeah, I think I think
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: there's the way to manage it.
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: But I think, if you're going to make this trade,
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: you're banking on the fact that you think he's going
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: to be fine. You like what you saw at the
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: end of the year, and you think that's what's gonna
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: be real rather than what we saw the entire season.
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: What you say, eighty eight percentile on hard hit average,
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: are you fearful of when he goes into Globe Life,
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: which became the least hit or friendly park in baseball
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: last year? Are you fearful that now, all of a sudden,
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: you have a guy who's gonna hit warning track home
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: runs and isn't playing better defense. But hey, you know what,
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: you save some money.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, look, I don't know about the power
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: that's that Globe.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: I feel has been different over the last several years,
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: so it's hard to calculate the ballpark factor with him.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: But I think the thing I.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: Like about Nimo is and I know the last couple
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: of years he hasn't been there. You know, he can
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: get on base. He's been a thirty five, thirty six
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: percent on base guy. I think he needs to get
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: back to drawing walks getting on base, going back to
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: the approach he had two or three years ago.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: And then whether the power is the twenty four.
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: To twenty three twenty five we saw, or if it
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: goes down to eighteen to twenty two because of the ballpark,
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: that's still gonna be enough.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I think playing left field for them.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: So again, you have to understand or at least a
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: big part of this to me is you got out
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: of seventy two million dollars that you were gonna have
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: to pay market simeon And if they view sibbyan like
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: I do, that's a that's a huge plus being able
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: to get out of that money right now.
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• 6:27
  Speaker 1: JB last layer here, what do you think is next
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: for both sides? Where should the Mets be focusing and
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: where should the Rangers be focusing? I think we can
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: start with the Mets just because Krats and me agree
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: here that this team just really needs to have a
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: different strategy on pitching and not playing in the kiddie
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: pool as AJ calls it, like, is the solution here
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: to show up the defense? Certainly it helps, but that's
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: not going to improve them doing these lottery ticket starter
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: signings every year.
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you're not going to win with this rotation. You're
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: not going to make the playoffs with this rotation. So
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: that's where you got to focus. You got to get started,
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: and you got to get guys who can count on.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: You know, you can't count on four and five inning starters, right.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: You need some guys that can pitch deep. So you
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: should be playing on Framble Baal Days. You should be
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: playing on Dylan c. You should be playing on Michael King.
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: You should be trying to trade for Freddie Peralta. You
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: should try to see if you can match up with
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: Terrik Skuble. Yeah, you need to go big here, and
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: I don't think one starter does it. I think you
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: need to go get too and if you get two
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: with the young pitchers that are coming, that'll put you
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: in a much better position. The other thing is you
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: need more power if you're not going to bring Pete
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: Alonzo back. You know, if you want run prevention, go
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: get Michael Tucker or Kyle Tucker, or go get Cody Bellinger.
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: But I don't think you could let Alonzo go and
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: not replace the power because I think they would miss
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: that home run power that he provided.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: Last year.
• 7:45
  Speaker 6: You brought up Freddie Peralta, a guy that everybody has
• 7:49
  Speaker 6: a target for. Where do you see this guy landing.
• 7:52
  Speaker 6: Is there a spot in mind you have right now
• 7:54
  Speaker 6: or it could be a crapshoot.
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: To be honest, Yeah, I got the spot in mind
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: for Paralta, and that's no. And let me kind of
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: go through the reasoning on why I think he stays
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: number one. They won more games in the regular season
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: than any team in baseball last year, including the world
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: champion Dodgers and the American League champion Blue Jays. They
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: got a chance to run back the exact same team
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: that did that. Why wouldn't you give your team one
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: more shot? Brandon Woodruff opted in on a qualifying offer.
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: You had Parolta, Jacob Mazarowski, Chad Patrick, I mean, Quinn Priester.
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: You got solid rotation there. If you trade Parolta, you're
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: not going to be as good a major league team.
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: The other thing that plays into it is he only
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: makes eight million dollars.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: I mean that's a bar that's a quarter of his
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: real value on the open market.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: So I think you keep them.
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: I do, And I think you know the other thing
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: about Freddy Peralta is another guy big in the clubhouse,
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: can pitch in big games, And I think you also
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: look back at when's the last time that Arnold lose
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: one executive the year of the last two years. When
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: did he trade a pitcher that was going to be
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: a free agent? Well, that was Corbyn Burns he traded
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: at Baltimore. What was the return in that trade? Shortstop
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: Joey Ortiz left the end of pitcher dl Hall and.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: A draft pick.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: Was that enough for one year of Burns? I mean,
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: you say fifteen millions, that made sense. Ortiz has been
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: good defensively at short he hasn't hit enough. Paul has
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: been inconsistent and hurt the last two years. But you
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: can't look at that trade and say, yeah, I probably
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: would have rather had one year of Burns because that's
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: what I would rather have had back then. And so
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: I think I kind of look at Parolta going you
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: better win the trade, You better get pieces that can
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: really help you win. If not hold on to him
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: for eight million dollars, and if you lose him for
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: a pick, it's okay. You did it with a Damis,
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: It's okay. It's not the end of the world. But
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: after the season you had last year, let's not disappoint
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: the fans or the clubhouse.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Let's get to Ryan Helsley and how we could have
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: interest in him as a starting pitcher on the free
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: agent market.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: What did you think of that story?
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: And do you think that he can convert to that
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: role like many others have done successfully over the last
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: few years.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no chance, Scott, not in the case of Ryan Helsley.
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: And look, it does work, right, a lot of times
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: you can take Michael King and put him in a
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: rotation and get success. Then a lot of times, like
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: the Giants, they tried to take Jordan Hicks was a
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: solid reliever make him a starter.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: That didn't work.
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: The Mets took Clay Holmes they as a reliever and
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: tried to make him a starter. You know, it really
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: depends on what is your repertoire, what's your command and control?
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: How is your stamina? How long can you stay in?
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: You know, with Clay Holmes, it made sense right, he
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: had that change up. You know, he's got the sinker,
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: the sweeper, the change up, the slider, the cutter, the
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: four seamer. He's got enough pitches. He's big, he's strong,
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: he can have stamina. So when Carlos Bandoza saw him
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: with the Yankees, he understood and had the vision of yeah,
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: he could become.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: A starter, although it takes a while before you build
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: up the innings. It takes a few years. But certainly
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: if that made a lot of sense.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: In the case of Ryan Helsley, the reason why I
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: think this is going to be more like Jordan Hicks
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: or Norm Charlton and not working is ninety two percent
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: of his pitches last year were fastball.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Slider. That's it. Slider was his best pitch.
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: In fact, posing battles went fifteen fo one hundred and
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: seven against it, which equates to batting one forty. The
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: slider's nasty. They also hit four to twenty two against
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: his fastball. It got hit really hard. The velocity is
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: still there, but he didn't have the movement and didn't
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: have the placement needed to be successful.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: So how's he going to.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Go around the lineup two or three times with a
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: slider like it? It just doesn't add up or make sense.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: And I think you know, in history, Scott, we've seen
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: starters like Brad Keller go to the bullpen huge success.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: Has now found a new niche for his career going forward.
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: But you really have to look at the full package
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: and say, where's the vision of this working? And when
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: I look at Ryan Helsley nine on two pitches and
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: only one of them effective, I don't know how that's
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: going to play out.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: What do you think is the science to this for
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: a team like Detroit or others? When you're explaining how
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense from a repertoire perspective, do you
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: think they're like, Hey, we think that we're going to
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: be able to activate some other pitches that you either
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: don't have yet or that you don't use very frequently.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: And they are pointing back to recent success stories like
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: play Homes and Rinaldo Lopez.
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you have to have a plan, right. If they're
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: looking at Hellsley and they're saying, hey, we think we
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: can develop.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: A split finger with him. We think we can change.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: Is our mangle, get it down a little bit lower
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: to get the fastball to more effective. We can teach
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: him a circle change. We've seen it in the bullpen,
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: and we think if we add these it can work.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: So sure.
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think one of the things that front
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: offices always does is you look at a player and say,
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: how can I make him better? How can I maximize
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: the talent he has. Is there a pathway where I
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: could take Ryan Helsley and make him into a starter effectively,
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: which would be an inexpensive option to have success. And
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: so yeah, if you have plan, go make it work.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: In Helsley's case in particular, I don't see that pathway.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: In Holmes, I did because Carlos Mendoza was pretty clear
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: on some of the pitches he saw him throwing the
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: bullpen that he didn't throwing games that he felt would
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: be effective and he would turn into a good starter.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: So again, it depends on the pitcher. But to your point, yeah,
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: obviously a team like Detroit must see something that they
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: feel with adjustments that he could do it.
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  Speaker 4: So I mean, look, I think Paul de Potesta is
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: trying to get his feet wet. He's been out of
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: major league baseball for a decade working in the NFL,
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: and now he's coming over here. He doesn't know the
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: major league team, he doesn't know the farm system. The
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: former GM is not employed anymore, and so I think
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: he felt like, at least Warren Schaeffer knows the players
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: he's managed in the last four months of the season.
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: This will give me an opportunity to utilize his brain
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: and experience with the group that we have as he
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: tries to work to improve the team he has. And then, look,
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: this isn't a team that's going to contend in twenty
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: twenty six. He knows they're going to finish and last
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: they've already clinched that. So congrats to them. And so
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: that gives him a chance to evaluate Warren Schaeffer next
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: year to see if he's a long term answer, or
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: it gives him time to put his own person in.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: But in the meantime, you got to have someone in
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: that organization familiar with what you have, and certainly Warren
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: has that.
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: Does this signify the fact that they that when he
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: has now taken over, he's looked under the hood that
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: there's a lot to do, that he's already underwater, and
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: he's like, I don't want to add something else where.
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: I'm trying to keep something or get somebody up to speed,
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: a new manager up to speed on something that I
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: can't even be up to speed on.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and it's hard.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: It's hard to It would be really hard to do that,
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: and especially in the case of Paul Devotes.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: As I said, just because he's been.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Out of the game so long, he's not up to
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: date on the technology, the analytic advancements. He doesn't know
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: the players, he doesn't know the coaching staff. You know,
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: he's not familiar with any of them, and so it
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: would be really hard if he just walked in and
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: just cleaned everything out and tried to start fresh.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: So I think this makes.
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: Sense talking about another ballplayer at Dolly Scarcia. Man, he struggled,
• 16:24
  Speaker 6: as we've seen, like nobody else, came off a nice
• 16:27
  Speaker 6: campaign with the World Series, and then all of a
• 16:30
  Speaker 6: sudden things kind of went south. Where do you see
• 16:33
  Speaker 6: him landing, if anywhere, as we're moving forward.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, okay, the one thing he can still
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: do is an occasional homer right nineteen homers seventy five,
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: RBI seventeen steels last year, but is on Basemis two
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: seventy one. Not good last two years. He looks like,
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: you know, he's declining. We'll see if he can have
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: a bounce back year. There's not gonna be a lot
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: of interest in him. I remember, I mean, this is
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: a guy that made nine million last year, was expected
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: to make twelve million, and they see too much money
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: for the industry. Texas tried to trade him before they
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: non tendered him. There was zero interest. So you know,
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: I think he's gonna have to take a five million
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: dollar probably base salary with incentives, and I think he's
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: gonna have to look for a team like the Pittsburgh Pirates,
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: who need to add offense. The Pirates have the starting pitching,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: they've they've got a decent bullpen, they don't have enough offense.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: They've got to add offense.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: And so maybe Garcia goes to Pittsburgh and can you know,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: prove to them that he's not done and try to
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: do some damage. There's not going to be a lot
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: of teams that have a starting spot for him, but
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: Pittsburgh might be one that can find an opening either
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: at DH or in the corner outfield.
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: You said the words starting Grayson Rodriguez trade. It almost
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: looked like the Orioles gave up on this. What are
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: your not not just views of it, but how it
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: was handled by both sides?
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Wow?
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: Okay, Eric, So first of all, my take is great
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: trade for the Angels. I want to be on that
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: side of things.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: I haven't seen the medicals. I haven't seen the MRI.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: I don't know what all the medical issues are with Grayson.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: I do know one thing, before his injuries, he was
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: one of the best pitching prospects in baseball, with number one,
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: top of the rotation type stuff when he was healthy.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: I also know you control him for four more years.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: So let's just say, worst case scenario, the medicals say
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: that he's got a bone in the ligament of the
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: elbow and he might need Tommy John.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Okay, let's do Tommy John.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: Let him sit out sixteen months and I'll bring him
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: back and still have two and a half to three
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: years of control of Grayson Rodriguez. Like, I don't understand
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: why you would trade Grayson Rodriguez as bad as you
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: need starting pitching, unless you've come to the conclusion because
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: of health you don't think you'll ever amount anything, which
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: I think is really premature with some of that age
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: with today's medical field. Now on the other side, with Ward,
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: you get word for one year, he's got great power.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: I get it, driven one hundred and ten runs, I
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: get it and also hit two twenty. And you begin
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: to wonder, now when you look at all the Orioles
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: draft picks, and you look at all of the Orioles
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: trades at the big league level, it seems they're obsessed
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: with power over hitting. You know, whether you look at
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: Tyler O'Neil, or whether you look at Ward, or whether
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: you look at Kurstad or whether you look at Mountcastle,
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: there seems to be a theme vance Honeycutt the prospect.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: There seems to be a theme that their obsession is
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: with power rather than hitters.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: And you would think if.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: You're in the American League East and you watch the
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: Blue Jays win ninety four games, you probably realize the
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: value of contact teams that can hit and play defense
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: and what that results is. So to me, it was
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: a perplexing deal. The trade Rodriguez for one year of
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: Taylor Ward just didn't make sense to me on the
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: Baltimore side. But for the Angels to take a chance
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: on Grayson Rodriguez, I loved it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: Do you have a chance, as Jim, to actually give
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: Grayson a physical by your doctors, by your team trainers,
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: And because I know during the trade deadline. During the
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: season you say, okay, I just got to read what
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: you have written. A trainer told me it's only you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: we're just combing through things. But in the offseason, couldn't
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: they have given that. Couldn't they have said, hey, we
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: would love this, but we want to see if we
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: want to actually put him through a physical first.
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: Oh, eric on and he nailed it. I can't believe
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: that Paranassian didn't do it. I actually don't understand why
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: you wouldn't. You can make any deal that you make
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: contingent on a physical or you know, it's up to you.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: It's up to the aseny club, the club receiving the player,
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: It's up to them to get as much medical information
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: as they want. Now, you're all going to get the
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: computer print out of all the medical reports, all the MRIs,
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: all the X rays, all the daily training reports. You're
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: going to have your orthopedic doctor talk to their orthopedic doctor.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: They're all going to converge. But then you always have
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: the option and I did it quite a bit when
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: I was GM about the Reds and Nationals. You have
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: the ability to say, look, I'm going to do the
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: deal contingent on a physical, and then the player would
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: in for a physical and then you'd make a determination
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: after that. When you have the history that Grayson Rodriguez ads,
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: I cannot believe the Angels didn't insist doctor Neil Ella
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: Trash putting his hands on the pitcher before making the trade.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: It just didn't make any sense to me.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this part was important, and I like
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: that Eric asked the question, JB. I mention it because
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: there are a ton of people online who think that
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: they were former gms and they're like, that's not a thing.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: You can't do that. You just get the records and
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: then you just have to make your decision. So I
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure, Yeah, let's double down again.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Can you ask for a physical?
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Actually, the one other follow up I do have on this,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: is there an opportunity for the player to say no?
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Or does the player basically have to do it?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: If you get a call and you say, hey, Grayce
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: and you're traded, it's contingent on a physical.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I need you to do that. Can he say no?
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Or because you know he's under control, he has to
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: do Okay, Yeah.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: It's in the contracts. If the team asked them to
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: do a physical. He has to do the physical. So yeah,
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: it was surprising, you know, It's just it's something.
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: And by the way, a lot of times it's not
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: done at the trade deadline because a lot of times
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: the trades are made last minute, it's not time to
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: do it. But if you notice, there'll be a lot
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: of trades made ten days before the trade deadline with
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: some injured players where they do do the physicals prior
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: to announcing it. So you absolutely can make you make
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: contingent on signing the player to an extension if you
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: wanted to.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: But it happens quite a bit.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: It's not something teams like to make public, but it
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: definitely happens.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: JB.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Last one for you, and it kind of brings this
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: fun segment full circle.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: We did see two very.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Notable names in Major League baseball just get moved. I
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: love a good baseball player trade major league for major leagueer,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: one for one kind of situation. Do you think that
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: any other big names like that could be moved on
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: the position player side that we're not thinking about. One
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: that I think we are thinking about a little bit
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: is ktel Marte. To get your thoughts, but maybe you
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: know Corey Seegers was floated in kind of like it
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: almost seemed like fake aggregating with Evan Grant's report. But
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: is there a chance that he could actually be moved
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: and the Rangers are looking to move and shake because
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I looked up looks like he has a limited no
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: trade clause, not a full and that would activate at
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: some point I think this year with ten five rights.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: So I think sometimes people don't consider that part of it.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And look, he can be traded to the Yankees
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: or Red Sox by the way, they're not on the
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: no trade clause.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I definitely think so.
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: I think ti Oscar nandez In La could get traded
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: if they were able to sign say Kyle Tucker and
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: decided to move on from too So yeah, I think big,
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: big names will get moved. There's a lot of very
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: creative GM's out there right now, Scotty, So I think
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: it can happen. In terms of Seager. Yeah, they're going
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: to deny that, you know, they'll talk to him, but
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: they'll move the contract if they can. It's a huge contract.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: He's thirty two years old. Texas has some financial issues
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: right now. I doubt he gets moved but look, the
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: Yankees have touch base with kateel Marte in Arizona and
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Corey Seger in Texas, just like they are with Kyle
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: Tucker and Cody Bellinger.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, the owner of House Steinberger came up instead.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: It would be nice to say.
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: That our payroll's going down this year, but of course
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: it's not because we're gonna go and try to win
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: the championship.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: So the Yankees are gonna spend money.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: And so you know Brian Cashman, he checks on everybody
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: all the time. That doesn't mean anything's gonna happen, but
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: he makes sure that he does his homework before making
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: the final decision. So do I think there'll be some
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: other big names traded this offseason that we're not thinking about?
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Absolutely?
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: I do.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: We hit this with Jim Bowden, but I want to
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: do this for a few minutes with our guys. Ryan
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Helsley is a free agent. Is he a free agent
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: reliever or a free agent starting pitcher? According to the
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Athletic Ken was in on this article, I believe in
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: and Cody staven Hagen among others. Here the Tigers are
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: among teams looking at him as a starting pitcher. This
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: is something that's now popped up for several years in
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: a row, guys, and we've seen success stories. I mean,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: if you go a little further back, Seth Lugo's a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: big success. Michael King More recently, Clay Holmes was good
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: for a while for the Mets last year. Wouldn't call
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: him part of the problems for the rotation. He definitely
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: faded down the stretch, But I think you have to
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: expect that when you're bringing a guy over who hasn't
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: put the innings together. Rinaldo Lopez was brilliant a couple
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: of years ago and then got hurt, so he missed
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: I think all of this past season with Atlanta. First,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: let's talk Arsenal and then we can talk about the
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: building up component. Do you think Ryan Helsley Todd Father
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: can make this move. Jim Boden really was against it
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: in terms of this particular pitching profile because he's got
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: fastball slider. The other two pitches really haven't been developed yet.
• 25:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean he throws hard, and he throws really hard,
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: and that's the factor as as a starter. Now, you
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: can't just go up there humping as hard as you want.
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: I mean, some guys can don't get me wrong, but
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: they've been doing it for a while. They've they've worked
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: their arms and bodies in those situations. For him, I
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: think it's gonna be hard just because of the two
• 26:13
  Speaker 6: pitches that he has. I mean, can can you rely
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: on those two pitches throughout a whole year every five days?
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Or you know?
• 26:20
  Speaker 6: Do you he need an arsenal? Nowadays it's gonna tell
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: you need four to five pitches. At least some guys
• 26:25
  Speaker 6: have six to eight pitches.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: I have to tend to go with Jim there and
• 26:31
  Speaker 6: say it's gonna be very hard. I don't think it's
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: the right decision, just on the sole fact how hard
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: he throws and how much effort he gives every time
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: he goes out there, it's gonna it might take a
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: toll on him.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Do you remember when they wanted Jeff Hoffman some of
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: the teams last year in free agency to consider that,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: And I don't remember was it him that said no?
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: No?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I think it was the teams that the teams didn't
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: want it.
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: So I thought the Braves, yeah, kind of failed him,
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: not the same way that the Orioles failed him. I
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: think the Braves were interested in that. But then when
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: he went to Toronto that I don't know if I
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: don't know if the Blue Jays cut that off or
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: if he was like all right, like well, we're just
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: gonna go closer. I mean, the difference is he has
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: four pitches now. Ultimately, Todd, you know, most big league pitchers,
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: you gotta look for two pitches. The issue is when
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: that third and fourth pitch comes in. Now you're like, well,
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: I'm just.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Gonna take that.
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: He you know, he throws a curveball whatever thirty seven
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: times a season in five hundred pitches, So you're like, okay, whatever.
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: If you see that as a starter, you have to
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: mix that up just because one, it allows you to
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: steal strikes. Two it gives them a different speed. And
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: I don't know that Hellsley has it. I tried to
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: look back at his minor league stats. He didn't that either.
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: Like it. It feels like a It feels like I
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: don't know, A you hogwashed twice feels like hogwash unless
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: there is something that we don't know. Oh, Like, I
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: don't know if teams can look at the guy and
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: be like, hey, because you're a we have so much
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: biomechanical information. Now because you're a pronator, because you're a supernator,
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: all that stuff. Hey, you know what, we can easily
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: teach you the kick change because a guy who throws
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: a fastball that cuts his hand can't really get around it. Hey,
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: you know what, We're just gonna put the ball in
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: your hand. Like, if you become a starter, there's always
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: more value. I was the one that in Mason Miller's
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: corner saying, go be a starter at the padres. That's
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: a huge value. Yes, try him out. What's the worst
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: that can happen? Go back to the bullpen? And I
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: I don't see it with Hellsley. But maybe it's something
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: from his camp because him going to a larger market
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: where the money's always going to be. When he got
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: traded to New York and it didn't go well, teams
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: are gonna be like was there something to that? What happened?
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: And maybe his camp's like, hey, he can start. But
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: I don't see it. I agree with Jim.
• 29:04
  Speaker 6: I think it's a respect factor though too that it
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: teem's like, you know what, I want to see this
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: guy as a starter, So if I'm him, I'm taking
• 29:09
  Speaker 6: that as an honor and like, hey, listen, okay, that's nice.
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: Maybe I'll take a second look at this team, whether
• 29:15
  Speaker 6: one mass start or not.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: It's a crowded reliever market this year too, which is great.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: It's fun for us to cover, but there's a lot
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: more competition than usual, and Hellsley really fell off with
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the Mets.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of pitch.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Tipping whispering going on, but we don't know if that
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: ended up actually being the case. The Cardinals picked Selsey
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: as a starter at of school he went to was
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: at Northeastern State in Oklahoma. He was a fifth round pick,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: but in the minor leagues all but eighteen of his
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: eighty seven appearances where as a starting pitcher, and then
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals bring them up, they make.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Them a reliever.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: The rest is history. So it's not like he's never
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: done it before at the pro level. And there are
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: others like that too. I mean, Jeff Hoffman actually was
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: a starter in the big leagues, right, Clay Holmes, I
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: think would did he start in the big leagues or
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: was it justice? He was a big league starter then
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: relief then back. Yeah, So for Hellsley, we haven't seen
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the starting side of things. But it's not like it's
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: completely foreign for him. And that's usually the case, right,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: They're like there's some track record of starting in the past,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: whether it's in the pros or early on in his
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: major league career, and then he was just moved quickly
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: to being a reliever.
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but there's like there's decision. I mean, who creates
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: pictures really well in the minor leagues. It's for a while,
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: it's been to Cardinals, it was the Braves are the
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: best forever. I just feel like there's I mean, you
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: can say that about almost anybody. Hoffman started it. He
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: was a failed starter. A lot of relievers are failed starters.
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: Like if we're if we're going to do this, let's
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: go back everywhere, tod where did you play? Where did
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: you play when you were Little league? What position?
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Wow?
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: Like you everybody was everybody was something to get to
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: where they were, Like everybody the Latinos are like boppy
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: everybody from the Dominican a short stop. Yeah, like yeah,
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: you were all shorts off because you're the best players.
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: It's the guys that make the transitions. And you have
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: to look at the profile, you have to look at
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: what he used and I was looking trying to look
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: at his eighteen minor league starts, and I couldn't see
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: any other pitches besides the slider. In the fastball, Yes,
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: it was a different shape. He has more horizontal, more
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: like a sweeper. Now, so maybe he said, oh, I
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: had a curveball and I had a slider. But there's prerequisites.
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: Clay Holmes was a failed starter with the Pirates.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Shocker, but.
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: So you're looking at those, you're looking at that. Ronaldo
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: Lopez was a big time starting pitching prospect. He came
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: up to the White Sox. They didn't need him, and
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: so it was more like, how do we have this
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: guy in the minor leagues who was dominating the minor leagues.
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: We're gonna put him in a bullpen. And the first
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: week he was ninety nine to one hundred, and he
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: kept all three of his pitches with he had a
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: bugs money change up. I faced him in Triple A,
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: I'm like, WHOA, this dude's legit. So there's so many
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: stories of that, but there has to be like a
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: few things that like, oh, this lines up, this lines up,
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: and I don't see that lining up with Helsley.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Well with Lopez too, I mean he was a starter
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: first in the big leagues with the White Sox, right right,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: and then they moved him over like you made thirty
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: two starts in twenty eighteen, thirty three starts in twenty nineteen,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: like he had full workload starting pitching life, then reliever, then.
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: Back and then what and what happened? What happened in
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: eighteen nineteen for the White Sox they were contending, right,
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: they couldn't use them, they could not. He was not
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: part of how he fit into their team as a starter.
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: And then you know, because they're like, hey, we could,
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: we can't. We can't let you continue to learn as
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: a starter in the big leagues. So there you go.
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: He had the he had the ability to start, he
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: had to learn it, and so they shifted him to
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: the bullpen. I don't see that with Helsley.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Do you think that this being a more new experiment
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: for teams could lead to more injuries for these guys.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Like this type of model.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: If you're like, hey, you've been a reliever for a while,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: now we're gonna build you back up as a starter.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: There aren't a ton of great examples yet. Maybe I'm
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: reaching here, but Rinaldo Lopez obviously went through it. I mean,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: he was brilliant and then he wasn't right.
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: It's all what side of the argument, Todd Well, while
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: I look something up, what side of the argument are
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: you on? Guys throw too much and that's why they
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: get hurt, or they throw too little and that's why
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: they get hurt, or they throw too hard. I guess
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: there's three sides, but to me, it's anyway, go ahead.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I think they need to throw more. That would be
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: my argument.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, yes, but is it difficult for these guys to
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: suddenly go from what they're doing to starting and then
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I mean Clay Holmes had a really nice beginning of
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: the season last year the Mets, and then he eventually.
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: Faded as well. You got to revamp your whole off season.
• 33:50
  Speaker 6: You gotta revamp how you throw, how you work out.
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: I'm not saying they can't do it. They're all professionals,
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: but you're putting your body in different scenarios, in different
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: situations where it's like, oh, okay, I haven't been there before.
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: I'm getting older too as well, so the body might
• 34:03
  Speaker 6: not keep up as much. So yeah, I think they
• 34:06
  Speaker 6: could do it for sure, but you know how many
• 34:08
  Speaker 6: guys have done that and been very successful.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: No, I was just gonna say, because it's new, teams
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: are like, what's the track record?
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: What does it say?
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: You know, because they're there, great.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: If there's no track record on these things.
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: Right, well, but they also don't know how to how
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: to handle it. So Renaldo Lopez went from I mean
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: he went to a world tour in twenty three he threw.
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: He threw sixty six innings as a reliever in sixty
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: eight appearances. Okay, so one inning of time he made
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: twenty six twenty five starts, one hundred and thirty five innings.
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: Are team's going to say, well, it's because he pitched
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: too much, that's why he faded at the end. He's
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: still at a one ninety nine era. Everybody will tell
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: you that when you make it to the big leagues
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: position players or or pitchers, you have a larger workload.
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: Even if you're in the minor leagues forever, your workload
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: is so much different. It used to be one hundred
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: and forty four games in the minor leagues. You play
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: one hundred and sixty two. You play a whole nother month.
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: How do you train for that? To me, it's not
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: just a willy nilly, Hey we're signing this free agent.
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: Oh it's November. Hey, go ahead and ramp it up.
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: We're gonna make you a starter. Especially if you say,
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: wait a minute, you used to throw ninety nine miles
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: an hour. Why are you throwing ninety six? Like That's
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: where I think pitchers teams have to line up and say,
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: you know what, I have to be able to not
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: throw as hard as I possibly can. For Renaldo Lopez
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: twenty six starts, but that was a successful campaign. I'm
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: not saying it wasn't except at what cost? Because you
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: go down to twenty twenty five and he had one start.
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: That's not successful. To get twenty six starts in two
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: seasons from a guy, that's not a successful transition, even
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: though he was an All star, even though he was
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: number eleven in the cy Young Award voting.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the question.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Do you look at the two years of body of
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: work and say, hey, he was worth that because in
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: year one of the deal, I mean he's making what twelve, teneen, ten, whatever?
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah for a starter like that, I mean he pitched
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: like a one for a good chunk of the season.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: So some team like, okay, it was worth the sacrifice there,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: and we didn't know when to kind of start to
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: ease back because he had done significant innings in the past,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: just not recently.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I just it's an interesting science experiment for teams. If
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: you're going to lay that plan out, how do you
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: keep the pitcher healthy and how do you keep them
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: effective down the stretch. That's the other important part, right
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: if you're a playoff team, It's great that this guy's
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: suddenly starting, but is he going to be good in August, September,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: October or is he going to fade?
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: And are you that good that you're like, we're banking
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: on him fading. So we're going to what put him
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: on the phanom I l No chance you're putting an
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: all star starter on the phanomi l Oh, Well.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: You could back to the bullpen, back.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: To the bullpen, and then he's not but he's still throwing.
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: Now he's got to come out and throw, you know,
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: one inning sprints. It's it's a hard thing to put
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: into your season if you're a contending team. This is
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: more to me, it's more of an experiment that non
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: contending teams can do, and players can just revamp their
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: whole their whole stick and get tons of value for
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: the next year. It's just so hard to navigate unless
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: you build your roster in rotation like the Dodgers did,
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: where you're like, we're expecting twenty to twenty five starts
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: out of all of our guys. Somehow you got to
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: find one hundred and sixty starts. You're gonna have your
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: two openers and one hundred and sixty starts? Is that
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: from seven guys? Is that from five guys? Five guys
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: gonna be tough? For five guys and a thirty two starts?
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: It never happens, And not when you're going after these guys.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Yep, Okay, good stuff, good good topic.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: And we'll see if there are more teams than emerge
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: like Detroit that are interested like that. Detroit's obviously got
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: these big boys, including Krek's Google at the top of
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the rotation.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: But we'll see, you'll see what happens.