Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Rewind: Jeff Tweedy

Transcript

Rewind: Jeff Tweedy · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin, we have a pretty great episode from our back
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: catalog to play for you today. In late twenty twenty,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Wilco's frontman and songwriter released his compact How to Write
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: One Song Book, an immense guide for bringing out anyone's
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: inner latent creativity through songwriting. This is just the kind
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: of idea that my co host, Malcolm Gladwell loves, and
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: so the two had a nice little conversation about the
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: book and about what's made Tweety one of the consummate
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: songwriters of the twentieth century so far, So enjoy this
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: episode from twenty twenty. This is broken record, real musicians,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: real conversations.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Can I start with this tantalizing little anecdote. You're telling
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: your book that when your dad got mad, he would
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: go into the basement and write poems. And all I
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: could think of is this is the Jeff Tweety origin story.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Pretty much? I think, so yeah, it was your father musical.
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: My father was a frustrated entertainer. He got my mom
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: pregnant in high school and they dropped out and he
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: got a job on the railroad, and I think his
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: whole life, I think that he wished that he had
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: had an opportunity to be on stage somehow. But he
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: was not particularly musical. But he was entertaining, that's for sure.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: But he aspired to be musical. He always he liked
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: to sing. He drank a lot, and he got up
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: at every wedding and embarrassed us, terribly humiliated us in
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: lots of cases.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: But were his poems?
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Were they any good?
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: I know my dad was brilliant, you know, they weren't.
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: I don't think that they were good in like a
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: Robert Frost way or but they might have been good
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: in a Jimmy Stewart kind of or Ogden Nash maybe
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: at the high end of his aspirations. But you know,
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: he wouldn't have had any of those references other than
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Jimmy Stewart. So but he did, you know, he made
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: un requited forays into indulging his musical side many times,
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: like he bought uh an organ from the mall that
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: the salesman claimed would teach him how to play, and
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: he would just sit there and watch the lights flash
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: as it would play itself, and drink a beer. It
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: was a I have a lot of memories of that.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: But the poem he wrote the poems when you said
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: when he was angry.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: That was my memory of them.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I sadly, you know, a couple of summers
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: ago when he passed away, we you know, we emptied
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: out the house, the house that I the only house
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: I'd ever lived in when you know, like my parents
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: bought when my mom was pregnant with me. And I
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: found a lot of his homework from when he taught
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: himself or basically learned computing, early on math homework and
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: stuff like that. But I didn't find any of the
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: notebooks that had any of the poems.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: So I suspect that he just got it off his
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: chest and then threw them away, you know, Yeah.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I just I just love these kinds of generational parallels.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: It's almost like, you know, if you were on the couch,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I would say, you're like tweety two point zero, you're
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: like the do over, the frustrated musicians who's writing these
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: essentially lyrics, and then you're you. You've come along and
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: you've turned it into an art.
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, uh, there's there are tons of
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: parallels that I mean. I mean it's disturbing as you
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: get older, how much you start to look like your parents,
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: and I look like exactly like my dad. And you know,
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: I think he suffered from a lot of the same
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: mood disorders that I've dealt with in my life. But
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: he clumsily, but somehow, you know, as far as employment goes,
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: and far as far as like not having worsening consequences
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: which would be typical of alcoholism, he managed to medicate
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: himself clumsily for his entire life, you know, for anxiety.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: I'm sure he had anxiety and depression and and yet
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: and he did, instinctively seem to have turned to some
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: of the same things that have provided some solace for
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: me that weren't unhealthy, you know, like getting things off
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: his chest. And you know, I was indulged a lot,
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: perhaps because I was a do over.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: When did you write your first song? Do you remember.
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: The first song I remember writing? And I'm pretty sure
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: that there were songs before this, But the first song
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: I remember writing was a song called your Little World,
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: and it was about a girl and her not having
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: enough room in her world for me.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: And how old are you when are you writing?
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: Maybe thirteen fourteen?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: You don't remember it, do you?
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Your little World's much too small? Oh, I ain't got
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: no room at all, So yeah, I was. I can
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: remember it, I could play it.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: Actually. One of the weird things is is that.
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: This local musician who went by the name Joe Cammel
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: band Joe Cammel and the Caucasians, they actually recorded that
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: song and made a single out of it.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Oh really it is?
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: It exists?
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, because I was. I was this kid that
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: hung out with all, like at the record stores and
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: hung out at the you know, with around other musicians
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: when I could get near them, and I would always say,
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: I write songs. And this guy in this band, Joe Cambill, said, hey,
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: let me hear one of your songs. And I went
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: over to his house and I played him this song.
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: He said, oh, that's great, I'm going to record it.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: We're gonna like go to record this song, and he did.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: It's fantastic. What when do you think you wrote your
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: first good song?
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: Well, I honestly don't think that that one was terrible.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: I think it's you know, it's it's not great, but
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: it was it was good enough for somebody else to want,
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: you know, see some potential in it. The first song
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: I liked that I wrote was probably screen Door on
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: the first Uncle Tupelo record. You know, that's the first
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: one where I felt like I had said something that
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: felt true to me and that I didn't necessarily have
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: anybody else's song to convey that idea. I always look
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: at it like I'm trying to make songs and a
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: new song for me to sing that someone hasn't already written,
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: So that one was the first one that felt like that.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: How old are you when you write that song?
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Sixteen sixteen seventeen?
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so pretty. It's funny. I just I have heard
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: musicians of various kinds answer that question over the years,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: and there's a whole set of them who like, you know,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: ten years passed between the first songs they write and
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: the first one they like. Yeah, but you you have
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: a much less ambiblic relationship to your early songwriting.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: One of the things I feel like I've had some
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: shame of out in my life is how shamelessly I
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: love stuff that I make. And I think over time,
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: I've really made peace with it because I think that
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: that's like kind of beautiful and it's kind of one
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: of the things that's allowed me to grow. I don't
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: I don't tend to keep liking things that I've made.
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: I tend to get pretty dissatisfied with them over time.
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: But when initially, even when I figure out how to
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: play something on the guitar that someone else has done,
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: I feel like I invented it. I have this, like,
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: really you know, sort of delusional relationship with the joy
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: that I take from making something, and I think that's
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: that that really comes naturally. So a lot of times,
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: my favorite song is always the one I'm working on.
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: Almost invariably I was like, Wow, this is a this
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: is really great, and it dissipates over time.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: But I I've always felt like that.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Does that make you a bad judge of your own songwriting?
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: I think it does, And that's part of the reason
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: that I've had to learn a lot of different ways
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: to get out of the get my ego out of
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: the way, like allow things to just state for a
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: lot longer, or put them away and forget them, forget
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: about them so that I can come back to them
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: with a little bit more objectivity. But in general, I
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: think it's just kind of the spirit of it is
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: what comes across a lot of times, and that that,
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: in a lot of cases is enough because you know,
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: not every song has to be the greatest song that's
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: ever been written.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: But it sure helps if you feel like it is
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: at the moment, in the moment.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: You know, you describe in this lovely book You've just done,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: how to write one song. Yeah, you describe a series
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: of exercises songwriting exercises, and also describe a kind of
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: what a songwriting day should look like. And I was
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: curious before we go into that, how long did you
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, if that's the pattern of songwriting you practice, now,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: how long have you been doing it that way? Did
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: you always have this kind of very structured way about
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: writing music.
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: No, I think that I've as I've gotten older. I
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: think one of the things I've really had to learn
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: how to do is provide myself structure because I work
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: in a profession that doesn't have a lot of structure
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: outside of touring, which is extremely structured and routine. You know,
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: but being home has always been a little bit dangerous
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: for me in terms of my mental health. Though the
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: routine has been something I've had to learn and has
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: helped me quite a bit. That being said, I don't
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: remember a time where I haven't felt like a kind
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: of a nagging sense all day that I should be
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: making something, that I should be learning something, or I
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: should be reading something, or I should be listening to something,
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: and that tends to provide a lot of momentum to
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: my days. This ugly feeling that I'm avoiding almost all
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: the time is that I don't want to get to
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: the end of the day and feel like I didn't
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: learn anything, or didn't make something, or just didn't participate
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: in my life in the ways that I've found to
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: be the most enjoyable and helpful to me.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: You described this ideal songwriting day in the book. When
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: was the last ideal songwriting day you had and what
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: did it look like?
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: It's been a while.
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: I think the ideal day, the last one I might
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: have had, would have been during the process of making
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: the album I just released, Love is the King, where
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: you know, around eight o'clock at night or something, I
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: would have started working on a song that I was
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: thinking about recording. The next day, I would have you know,
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: worked on it and played around with it, maybeate a
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: little demo of it on my phone until like maybe midnight,
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: gone to sleep, woke up. Probably would have finished the
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: lyrics early in the morning, because they tend to kind
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: of untangle themselves in my sleep a lot of times,
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: and I like to I like to write even before
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: I get out of bed, you know, where I feel
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: like I'm still sort of you know, the judgment side
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: of me is still sleeping or something, you know, And
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: I would have gotten up and come to the studio,
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: maybe worked on that song for a little while in
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: the studio, head lunch, maybe taken a nap, would have
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: gotten up from the nap, finished the song, maybe invited
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: my younger son over to sing a harmony vocal on it.
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: Common practice in that moment when I'm asking someone else
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: like Sammy to sing on something would be to really
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: focus on the lyrics and make sure they're where I
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: want them to be.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: So I would have done some revisions on.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: That, maybe until around five or six, and have a
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: rough mix to take home and have some dinner and
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: listen to records generally until I get excited about trying
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: to make something to beat something I just heard, some
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: sort of like trying to activate some competitive side of
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: my brain, and then start the whole process over with
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: maybe seeing if I could, you know, come up with
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: another song for the next day.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: So in your ideal world, is it a song from
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: start to just finish in that one day, or is
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: is it that you have little bits and pieces already
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: there that you're going back and finding and playing with.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: I can do a song start to finish in one day,
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: but typically there are little pieces of raw material that
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: have been accumulated. Yeah. I think one of the things
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: I might do at eight o'clock, say, the beginning.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Of the day I just described, would be to go.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: Through my phone and find a musical idea that I'm
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: excited by that I don't know, just catches me enough
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: unaware to start dreaming about it and start like fantasizing
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: about where it could go or what it could sound like.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Do you have your phone with you right now? Can
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: you play as a musical idea off the phone?
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: Sure?
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Let's see.
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: Well, this one sounds a little bit maybe a little
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: bit more finished than normal. It's the tunnel at the
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: end of the light.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: So that is that? Has that little bit been turned
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: into a song yet or is it just waiting?
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: It's waiting.
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: I mean there's and then there's stuff that's maybe I
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: don't even know what this is, just some chords I
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: thought were pretty uh, but yeah, there's there. There are dozens,
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: or not dozens. There's probably literally hundreds of those things
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: in my phone. When they stack up a little bit,
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: I usually transfer some to the computer here at the loft,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: so they're at least in a couple places.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and now time for a coffee break with my
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Broken Record co host, Malcolm Gladwell. This coffee break is
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: brought to you by the Starbucks Coffee Company.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: With me today, I.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Have the esteemed co host of this show, Malcolm Gladwell,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: who I don't think I'm telling tales out of school
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: here is quite a coffee drinker, right.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: I enjoy coffee and a coffee shop aficionado. I'm it's
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: more than just its experience. It's not just a coffee.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: I spend enormous amounts of time in coffee shops.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Would you say you would rather drink coffee in a
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: coffee shop or would you rather take it to go?
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Always in? Always in? Yeah, you know, I'm not a
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: guy who like takes it in, like sits in my
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: car and drinks my coffee my car. Otherwise you're you're
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: ruining the fun, which is settle in a nice table
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: sun streaming in the window, eaves dropping on conversations, and
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: then you you enjoy your cup of coffee. Okay, I'm like,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: this is a little moment in my day where I
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: can reflect and relax and sit back with a cup
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: of coffee. Wow, there's a moment in the afternoon. That's
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: my coffee moment. No, morning, Coffee's an experience. That's the thing.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I have my experience in the afternoon. In that little
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: moment in the middle of the afternoon, when everything's quiet,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: you get feeling a little bit like calm, and you know,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: and I go and I sit in the coffee shop
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: and enjoy myself. Remember the first time going to a Starbucks, Malcolm,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I do?
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: I had all these friends who they were, all these
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: grow friends, I mean from Stanford. They all lived in
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: in San Francisco, and everybody came east for a wedding.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: It's in Long Island. And I remember on the morning
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: of the wedding, Chris, who was the chief hipster of
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: the California crowd, said, this is like, I don't know
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: when this was mid nineties. Maybe Chris says to the
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: assembled multitudes, I hear there's a Starbucks finally out here.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: We piled into cars that we drove somewhere like it
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: was somewhere in and you know, central Long Island. Remember this,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: It was quite the journey and we were like, whoa,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: it's like this thing called Starbucks had finally arrived in
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Long Island because I guess it starts I mean clearly
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: starts in Seattle, right. Yeah, it's very exciting, remember that.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I remember it was like it was like a destination.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: It's like, that's what we're doing on the morning of
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: the wedding, getting a cappuccino.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: It remains, it remains thirty thirty years on, remains a
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: destination for me.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I'm sure that Starbucks is still there.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Absolutely leads me to want to ask sort of seasons aside,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: are you a hot coffee guy or only hot colbrew?
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Only hot? To me, the whole coffee on ice thing
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: is like, what are you doing? Wow, that's not We're
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: not here for that. On a on a ninety eight
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: degree humid day, I will go in and I'm having
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: and there's always a point of confusion because I'll go
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: into cofee, Im sall, I have a capuccino and there's
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: a pawn and they're expecting me to say iced, and
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I say not iced. This is not I'm not doing it.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm not. I'm not, like, you know, turning
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: my back on my coffee experience just because the weather's
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: on the warm side. No, No, the experience remains the same.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter where I am having my cappuccino and
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: it's not got ice in it, it's hot.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I gotta say, I'm running through my memories of going
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: to coffee with you, and I really can't place an
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: iced coffee in your hand at all. I think you're
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: telling the truth there that you really are not doing ices.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Before we end this coffee break, I gotta ask you, Malcolm. Yeah,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: there's been a whole wave of oat milk drinkers of late.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Not doing it almond milk. I am aware and grateful
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: for the option, and I don't look down anyone who
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: wants to go to the oat milk route. I am
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: an unwavering traditionalist. I have a cappuccino that is hot
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: with whole milk. I don't, I don't. I never wave
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: from that. My thing is, you know, I'm very very
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: you know. My whole thing on now, I've only only
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: drunk five liquids. I was gonna be yeah right, it's
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: red wine, it's water, it's espresso based beverages, it's milk,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: and it's tea. That's it. And does this stand still
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: to this day? Yeah? Never waver never waver.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: All right, man, Well, thanks for the coffee break, Malcolm,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: all right, justin all right. I know Malcolm said he
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't like ice drinks, but I happen to love him.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: And so after we talked, I went down to my
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: local Starbucks here in Long Beach to try their ice
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: or Chotta oat milk shaken espresso. And this drink is incredible.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: It's a blonde espresso combined with or chata syrup that
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: delivers a fusion of cinnamon, vanilla, and rice flavors, shaking
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: together with ice and topped with oat milk. I'm a
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: person who likes to explore the Starbucks menu. I'll go
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: up and down that thing whenever I'm at Starbucks. But
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of people and I can be
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: this way too that like the Staples. If you're one
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: of those people, this drink still retains that wonderful coffee flavor,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: but on the back end chases it with this wonderful
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: milky cinnamony or Chota flavor as well, and it has something,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: in my opinion for everyone. Your eyes for Shota oat
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: milkshake and espresso is ready at Starbucks.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm investinated by this process. How long might some
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: a little bit linger on your phone or in your
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: archive before you use it? Is there stuff? And if
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: we went into the you said sometimes you download them
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: on at the loft. How far back would we have
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: stuff there from ten years ago you've never used?
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean probably there are.
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: I used to do it on cassettes and basically I
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: used to just leave a cassette in a dictaphone old
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: style like what you would have Steno would have used,
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: or someone in an you know, secretary pool, and I
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: would just leave it on the coffee table and until
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: it filled up, and then I'd put another cassette in.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: And there's there are dozens of those cassettes on the
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: Suki ray album that I made under the name Tweetye.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: There's a song on there that I finished after fourteen years.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: I think what song was it. It's called I'll Sing It.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Was there a little snippet of it that was the
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: original snippet.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: It's actually in the track I actually just played over
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: the cassette version. Yeah, yeah, And then I think that
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: ended up on the Summer Teeth box set that we
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: just put out because it was written around the same
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: time as Summer Teeth.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when you go back and find a little snippet
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: like that, do you remember when you created the snippet
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: or is that gone?
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: It depends. A lot of times I don't remember at all.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: I have no recollection at all of a lot of
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: times I don't even remember the tuning, and I have
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: to like sit and figure out because I use a
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: lot of different tunings, and I really hate it when
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: I don't bother to tune the guitar to a standard
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: pitch because then it makes it even harder to figure
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: out what tuning I'm in and stuff like that. So
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: a lot of times it's it's it's completely gone wherever
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: it happened, which is kind of I love it when
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: that happens, even though it can be frustrating trying to
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: relearn it.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: But then there are times.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: Where I absolutely have a distinct memory of where I
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: was and what was happening. And a lot of times
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: that's because there are other ambient elements that it made
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: their way onto the recording. I like, say, backstage and
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: somebody in Wilco walks through and says something, and I
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: can viscerally feel that that room and I'll know even
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: what city it was. In a lot of cases, sometimes
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: when I'm doing it in hotel rooms in Europe and
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: you have the windows open. Whenever we're fortunate enough to
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: find a hotel that has windows that open, you hear
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: like people leading on at the cafes or something like that.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: That's those are always really kind of special recordings. It
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: a lot of times mean a lot to me, even
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: without them being finished.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We did an interview with Nora Jones while back
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: now and she was talking about how she did her
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: song Wintertime with You, and she was talking about this
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: this very process that she had some scraps, a little
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: bits and pieces, and you had bits and pieces and
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: you kind of put it together to create a really
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: beautiful song. Can you can you? Because of walk us
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: through that little case study of this time with a
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: twist with another person involved, but doing it, seems like
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: both of you were doing doing the work of creativity
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: in the same way. Is that true?
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: I think that well, first of all, Norah Jones doesn't
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: need me to help her write a song, for sure,
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: but we admire each other, so there's a there's already
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: a kind of a base level of camaraderie or something,
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: you know, but I haven't found many people that I've
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: worked with to have it just wildly different approaches to it.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: Everybody seems to have.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: Sort of the core process is sort of similar. You
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: basically start with something that is nothing, you know, that
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: feels but feels like it could be something, and then
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: you basically surrender this idea that you can't you can't
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: do that, you can't make something out of nothing, and
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: you do it. And it's really the most important part
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: is just letting go of the idea that it can't happen.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: I think, and with someone else.
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: It requires a lot of waiting until you both have
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: you know, both people have to feel comfortable and supported
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: enough and trusting enough to kind of throw out ideas
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: until you know, a light bulb goes off in two
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: heads at once. It's a little bit more full proof
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: in a way because you have that consensus of universality
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: for two people as opposed to like just trying to
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: imagine that everybody will like something you like.
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: We'll be right back with more from Jeff Tweety. After
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: the break, We're back with more of Malcolm's conversation with
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: Jeff Tweety.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: You've done an unusual amount of collaboration with other artists
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you write for, maybe Staples. You did those beautiful Mermaid
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Avenue albums with Billy Bragg that I are among my favorites.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: When you're writing with another person in mind, does it
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: change the way you write a song?
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it does.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: I honestly think that that is the thing that I
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: am most comfortable doing. I think it's the thing I
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: truly aspire to do more than almost any other thing
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: that I get to do.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: I always pick myself.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: Being a person that would write songs for other people
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: to sing, and Uncle Tupelo. I wanted my songs to
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: be sung by Jay because he had this magnificent, like rich,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: authoritative voice, and I had this squeaky, you know voice
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: that I didn't feel like was quite my own, even
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: at the time, I was struggling to find it. As
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: much as I felt great when I sang, I just
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: loved the idea of writing the song more than the
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: idea of singing it. And I still think that that's
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: where my most natural abilities lie, is in helping somebody
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: with another with their song, like working with Nora or
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: finding something for someone to sing like Mavis. I don't
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: look at it as like I'm putting words in her mouth.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: I feel like I'm just kind of helping find something
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: that she feels comfortable singing that makes sense for her
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: to sing. Same thing with the Woody Guthrie lyrics. That
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: was even more along the lines of what I feel
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: I have the strongest sense about as being something that
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: comes naturally to me, because those lyrics were sacrosanct. You know,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: they're like you know, you're not You're not gonna mess
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: with them.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: They're there.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: You don't even need to worry about whether or not
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: they're good enough. They're important for people that don't know.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: There were all these lyrics that Woody Guthrie left behind
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: that the music was never documented or he never really
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: made any music for. There was all these archival lyrics
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: and writing that we took and made songs out of,
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: and with those I would just sit and read them
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: over and over and over again until the meter would
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: emerge and then next there would be a melody that
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: would emerge, and in a lot of cases with Woody
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: Guthrie lyrics, you read it and all of a sudden,
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: a Carter Family song emerges, because that's what he was
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: actually writing his lyrics to was someone else's song. I
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: did the same thing with a bunch of lyrics for
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: Bob Dylan that never came out because I was I
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: wasn't able to be a part of that process for
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: that record that they did a couple of years ago,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: where they had a bunch of lyrics that Dylan had written.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: It's like Elvis Costello is a part of it, and
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: some of the Mumfords and mumfort But anyway, t Bone
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: had asked me if I could do it, and I
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: got all these lyrics, and then my wife started treatment
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: for cancer, so I couldn't go to LA for the
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: amount of time that they wanted me to. But I
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: did the same thing with those lyrics. I wrote them,
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: I wrote and recorded a whole record in a weekend.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Like, did you find it sort of freeing to not
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: have to do it in your own with you with
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: your own voice in mind? Yeah?
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: I think that I just struggle with allowing myself to
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: comment on certain things that I don't feel like I
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: have the authoritative weight to weigh in on, for for
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: in terms of like mayvs Or something like that, or
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: the things that I feel like Mayvas has a voice
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: of righteousness of some you know, of some broader scope
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: in historical importance and place.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: There's just a way to it that I feel very
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: privileged to have been able to write for. But a
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: lot of those things are are not going to make
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: as much sense coming out of my mouth. It just
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: doesn't feel right for a lot of you know, social reasons.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I think, what's the right word to describe your attitude
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: towards your own voice? Are you self conscious about it?
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: No?
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: I mean that about Tupelo and how you preferred if No.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: I feel like I've gotten way better as a singer,
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: and I've worked really hard to get better over a
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: lot of time. And I actually I enjoy my voice,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: my singing voice quite a bit. I actually do like
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: listening to myself singing now when I find things that
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: I want to sing a lot of cases, i feel
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: like I'm the only person that could sing it the
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: way I want to hear it. But that doesn't mean
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: that I'm oblivious to the fact that my voice isn't
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: technically great in the you know, by the normal criteria
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: of American idol or the voice or you know, whatever,
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: whatever you know.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: But all my favorite singers are like that.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: Almost all my favorite singers have non traditional voices that
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: have become communicative.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: It's like it's like where they trade virtuosity or technique
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: or whatever for sincerity or sentiment and conviction. And I
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: feel like I found that in my voice over time,
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: and I'm very, very proud of the idea that I
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: still work at getting better and try and sing in tune,
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: you know. But I'm more I'm much more concerned with
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: making the words feel the way I want them to feel.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: Speaking voice, on the other hand, is awful. I cannot.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: I will never listen to the book that I just
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: read or this interview. I might listen to you do
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: another interview with someone else.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: So on this point in the book, you talk about stealing,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: but you're being a little bit mischievous because you don't
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: really be in stealing, but you're talking about being open
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: to influence essentially. So give me an example of another
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: artist whose work you find lots of stuff to borrow
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: from and be inspired by. And I'm just curious, does
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: it come from everywhere? Are there predictable places where you
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: go to find ideas well?
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: The thing I'm describing in the book is just based
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: on this belief that you can't really copyright a group
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: of chords. What I'm describing in the book is basically
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: me saying, well, I'm gonna look for a song that
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: I think has a bunch of cool chords in it,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: and I'm gonna learn how to play it, and then
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna take it and make it into something that
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: no one would hear that song in it anymore. But
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: it's basically like just when you're a little bit stuck,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: just realizing that the world is full of these, you know,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: sort of naturally occurring shapes that you can appropriate. You know,
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: I don't look at them as being particularly ownable by anybody,
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: and especially if I don't you know, sing the same
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: type of song or put the same type of melody
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: over it, or even have the same rhythm or you know,
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: there are many many ways to describe it. But it's
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: such a it's such a liberating thing to do to
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: just go, oh, I'll just take these chords and and
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: and start there because I haven't been able to come
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: up with anything all day. That being said, there are
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: just tons and tons of artists, new and old, every
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: day of my life that I encounter, and to me,
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: you have to work to not encounter art that inspires you,
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: I think, and I think that that does overwhelm people.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: I think sometimes some people do get to a certain
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: point where they want to hide from influence or hide
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: from the feeling that they're being challenged by other artists.
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: But I look at it like most of the time
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: I get that way too. I can feel overwhelmed sometimes,
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: but more often than not, I feel really invigorated by
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: the fact that if I go looking, it won't take
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: me long at all to find something that shows me
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: where the bar is that I should be aiming for.
• 34:50
  Speaker 6: We'll be right back with more from Jeff Tweety after
• 34:53
  Speaker 6: the break.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: What's an example of a song you listened to recently
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: that triggered all kinds of reactions and inspirations in you?
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: You know, Kate.
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: I think Kate Lebon writes a lot to music that
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: makes me feel that way. She's just the first person
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: that popped into my mind. She she's an artist that
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: has this undeniable kate leabondness about what she does, you know,
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: like we're and that's that's that's hard to find, you know.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: I think there's she has a very specific.
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: Angle that she comes at what she does, and and
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: nobody else knows that precise angle. I think the song
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: Meet the Man I wanted to Meet the Man. I
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: think that's the name of it. So I think it's
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: the last song on her most recent record. It has
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: all of these twists and turns that are unpredictable, and
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: I don't know, when you.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Listen to that song, can you turn off the part
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: of your brain that wants to to kind of learn
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: from it, use it, employ it in some way and
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: just enjoy it or do you Is it is that
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: part of the brain always on?
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: Well, that is how I enjoy it. I think that.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: I think that is part of how I enjoy it.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: I I think I enjoy it first and foremost the
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: way I have enjoyed music since I was a little kid,
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: before I played any music or wrote any music. I
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: am just attracted to sound and excited by records. And
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: I don't think that that's any different, but I don't
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: feel burdened by the knowledge that I have now, and
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: I think it just adds this insight, like, oh wow,
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I can kind of tell what reaverb is going on there.
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: But that being said, the things that I tend to
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: enjoy the most are the things.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: That I have zero idea how they came to be.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: Those are the things I listen to, you know, like
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: have more repeated listenings, tend to be like some hip
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: hop records and things that are outside of my skill set,
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: and you know, and then then there are times where
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: I crave comfort food, where I just want to hear
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: a simple country song played on an acoustic guitar, and
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: I have a very very firm grasp on how that
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: comes to be, but it doesn't diminish its importance in
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: my life.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: You know, is there an artist, a contemporary of yours
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: whose career you'd have loved to have?
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: No?
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: I honestly, I've thought about that a lot.
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: I have moments where I have a professional jealousy. I
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: think it'd be impossible not to have these moments, especially
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: if you're somewhat competitive like I am. I think it's like,
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: why is everybody righting about this guy now, like you know,
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: like that, like I'm not ashamed to admit I have,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: like you know, it's it's not the end of the
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: world to admit you have petty feelings, you know. But
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: but honestly, I don't think so, because when I take
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: a step back, the prevailing emotion is gratitude. I mean,
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: it wouldn't This is nothing like I would have been
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: ever been able to imagine for myself, you know, thirty
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: years in from my first time probably playing on a
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: stage or you know, getting in front of people.
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: Right back with more from Jeff Tweety, we're back with
• 38:15
  Speaker 6: the rest of Malcolm's conversation with Jeff Tweety.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: It would be really fun if we put together a
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: bunch of the stuff we've been talking about in a song,
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Like is there a song that you could break down,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: play and break down for us? Will you talk about
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: all the little pieces that brought it together, how the
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: song was created, the little bits of influence if you
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: remember them. Is there one that's that fresh in your
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: memory that you could do that a little mini masterclass.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: Let me think I have a guitar here, so that's
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: the g chord I always play when I pick up
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: a guitar. It's an inadvertence.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: You're the invariant g, the tweety G.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: It's pretty same.
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: It's my grounding. Well, there's a song on the new
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: record called Opaline where I was writing at this summer
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: or this spring, when there was so much going on
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: in the world, and our relationships with our police departments
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: were being investigated and talked about a lot. So I'm
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: not a person that's ever had that feeling. I've never
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: really been a fan of police because I've always felt
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: like police had a lot more to do with their mentality,
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: had a lot more to do with the people that
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: made fun of me and school and were more jockey
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: and it's just a general atmosphere around police that I've
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: not enjoyed. But I've not had this experience that a
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: lot of minorities have had with police in this country.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: I'm aware of that, but I was trying to put
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: myself into that that headspace of living with that fear.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: So those were those were the lyrics.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: That I was playing around with. It's like I hear
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: the police outside my window. I can hear them talking
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: on the radios and uh, oh, you poorlice outside my window.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: How can hear.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: Them talk in all the radios.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: I keep my head, order my pillow, pray that they
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: go on leave me alone. So that's like just one
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: little chunk of this song that was a melody that
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: I had without any words.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Did you write that chunk first?
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: Yea, I did, And then I had a piece that
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: was like, oh, you know, I didn't really have any lyrics,
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: so I was I We had a golden orb weave
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: spider weaver spider in our garden this spring that I
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: named Opaline for some reason, just because it just seemed
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: like a cool name. I had an aunt opal and
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: so I just started singing.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: To her, Oh, oh, made believe that she still love me?
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: Oh believe. It's how to see reality.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: I need got no love it all.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: So that's just writing a country song that's just trying
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: to figure out a way to get to the line.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: Reality is hard to see when you've got no love
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: at all. Because one of the things that has been
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: on my mind.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: A lot these last few years.
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: Or you know, for a while now, is how do
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: you get to the point where reality doesn't matter? And
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: it obviously is very negotiable for a lot of people
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: in our information climate that we can shop for, a
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: reality that we trust and believe, and there isn't a
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: shared consensus a lot of times, which is really maddening
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: and strange to witness. We don't even have the same
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: agreed upon fictions anymore, you know, Like it's it's really troubling.
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: And my theory is that must be a lot easier
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: to do when people have been isolated from a lot
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: of their feelings of being cared for or having affection
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: and warmth in their life.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: So you have in this song, you have that opening
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: image of the kid in bed head under the pillow
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: and hearing the cops outside and worrying, and then you
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: have opening yeah, and then you also have other interesting
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: element is it's very plainly a country song. But we're
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: not in country territory.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: Are we.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, country territory is pretty pretty vast in
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: my opinions. To me, where country music fails is when
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: it tries to adhere to the tropes of country music
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: and becomes like civil war re enactment or something. It's
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: you know, it's not it's not about what's happening. And
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: this is this is a weird song for me to pick,
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: but I'm gonna stick with it now because we're in it.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: But you know, this is this is like a This
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: is a little bit of a pistiche to where I
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: got all of these elements to make sense to me
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: and feel good to me. There's a story that runs
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: through it that feels apprehendible to me, you know. So
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: I had that, and that's probably what I put in
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: my phone first, aside from the initial chord progression that
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: I might have hummed over. That was like the first
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: document of this song. And then I was out driving
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: my car on a toll road right after that, and
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: there was a hearse on a toll road outside Chicago,
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: and this literally literally happened, and I went through a
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: toll next to a hearse And as I went through
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: the toll, I looked back and the hearse was stuck
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: at the toll like it didn't have any money or whatever.
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: But as I kept driving, I kept looking in the
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: rear view mirror and it was it just kept not
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: being let through the toll, and I just felt like
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: I'd been hit over the head with one of the
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: most striking metaphors I'd ever encountered in the real world,
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: you know, Like what is you know what is purgatory?
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Like I was just just one of
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: the craziest things.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: I actually wrote this in the car into my phone
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: of just voice memo into my phone. There's nothing worse
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: then a hearse drive and slow out on the toll way.
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: Stop being at the tolls, No change, no easy pass,
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: what a way to go? There's nothing words then a
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: heart's driving slow?
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: Oh you know.
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: Then you get back into the forest.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Do why wait, don't question, But you had the heart
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: experience and you have these two little bits that you've
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: already done. Why do you think the hearst experience belongs
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: to this song or not any number of other things
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: that you have stashed away for future reference. How do
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: you know it belongs here?
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: It's just what was in my mind.
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: So I don't really think of things as accidents that
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: I need to really investigate. And it just it sang
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: well to these this melody before I could even make
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: a decision and about where it should go, you know.
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: What I mean.
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: It's like that song was already in my mind. I'd
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: been working on it. So those are the those are
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: the patterns that you walk around with when you have
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: a song in your head. And that's one of the
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: reasons I enjoy having a song on my head because
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: then everything that happens to me is d you know,
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: like everything fits in that melody. It makes it makes
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: some order out of the world. I suppose you know.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: So those lyrics that you just sang for me, is
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: that exactly as you composed them in the car? Or
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: would you fiddle with them later?
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: No, that's exactly as I composed them in the car.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: And did you compose them in the car like like
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: off the cuff or did you were you playing within
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: your mind before you recording.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: I played with it in my mind.
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: A little bit before I decided that I should document
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: it before I get home.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And again I'm sorry. Now I'm total
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: I can't get over theat this so much fun. Do
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: you pull over or do you keep driving and you're
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: singing into your phone?
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, not to get too technical, but I
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: pressed a button on my phone that allowed me to
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: record it without having to take my eyes off the road.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't mean I was suggesting you were an
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: unsafe driver, but I was suggesting, like, does it I
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: was imagined there was a scenario where you're so caught
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: up in this that you're like, I gotta focus and
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: you're like pull into the you know, the I Hop
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: parking lot, and but no, no, you're just you're just
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: driving merrily down the road, singing us into your phone.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I love also that you know, ninety nine percent of
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: humanity seize the hers. I doesn't see the hers or
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: sees the hears and doesn't immediately understand the the perfection
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: of that metaphor. Well, I feel like you're attuned you
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: you are attuned to these things.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: Thank you. I think we all should be.
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, we're like we're walking around and that there's
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: no there's no failed experiment. And if you're paying attention
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: to the world, I think we get tired. I think
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: we get overwhelmed, like I was saying before, with like
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: inspiration or influence and things like that. And you know,
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: we're not always receptive and we're not always we don't
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: always have.
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: The energy or.
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: A lot of us have a lot of concerns all
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: the time about a lot of other things that would
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: require more mental energy than we have, and that tends
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: to crowd out a lot of you know, paying attention
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: to the strangeness of the world or the you know.
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: I don't feel like I'm doing anything super unique in
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: that regard. I just think that I am aware that
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: my brain wants to make sense of stuff, and I
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: give it an opportunity to make sense of stuff, you know,
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: or actively participate in the fact that it does that.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: I think all of our brains do that.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: All of our brains would much prefer to find some
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: reason for something to be the way it is, then
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: for to try and accept and understand ambiguity and randomness
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: and and things like that.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: So we're we're.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: Designed to do that, and then sometimes it hits you
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: over the head because it is just too perfect and beautiful,
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: like a hearse being stuck at a toll booth plassa.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Well, you're not done, We're not done. Keep going.
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: Well the thing, you know, So there's another verse and
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: verse verse of chorus versus a chorus.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: And then.
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: By that time I think I had already recorded it,
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: and I had recorded the song without any lyrics. I
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: didn't sing it, I just was just and then I
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: envisioned this like long outro guitar solo. So I needed
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: another verse and I needed something that was going to
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: set up a long guitar solo into a chorus, And
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: that was actually the hardest part, because I wanted something
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: that sort of tied those two pieces together a little bit,
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: at least ambiently somehow.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: So I came up.
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: I came up with a bunch of things that I
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: actually changed over time, and I can't remember all the
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: different changes because I only know.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: I only remember what I ended up on. But it was.
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: Uh, I'd like to find out while she had to
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: go my heart once what a heart can't control. So
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: I hang in the air as the light gets cold,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: and I heard in his shadows welcome home. And then
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: it goes into the solo there. But to me it
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: was kind of like I had become the guy that
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: was hiding from the cops that got killed, They got
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: murdered by cops, that ended up on the highway in
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: a hearse, not having the change even the money to
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: go through a toll, you know, comically dark even in
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: my demise, still completely just devoid of any luck whatsoever,
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: you know, which is a country trope in a way,
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: you know, just like the beautiful Loser, but still but
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: still singing. This is a theme on the record actually
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: is still singing from beyond the grave to this woman
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: who basically took a took everything away in his opinion
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: or his feeling, but knowing basically saying, I'm I'm still
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: going to be in that air that you breathe.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: I'm still going to be.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: I can't have what I want, but I can still
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: imagine that you are going to think about me from
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: time to time. And it's a it's a sad, pathetic
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: notion that a lot of a lot of weak men
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: have and I've had in my life.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: And and is that you'll miss me.
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: When I'm gone, And and uh, I think it's more
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: often than not wishful thinking.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you to finish the song for us.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: Oh well, it's just one more chorus.
• 53:55
  Speaker 5: It's so beautiful, thank you, Oh believe.
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: May believe that she's de love me. Oh it's hard,
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: ser really.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: When you got no love it all?
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: I love that. Thank you, well, thank you, Jeff. I
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: think that's a lovely way to wrap things up.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that catalog episode of Broken Record.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Here's some of our favorite Jeff Tweety songs. Hit the
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: link to the playlist in the episode description and be
• 54:49
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• 54:51
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• 54:54
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• 54:57
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• 55:01
  Speaker 1: produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Taliday.
• 55:08
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• 55:33
  Speaker 3: I'm justin Richmond.