Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Investigative Journalist Billy Jensen on Solving True Crimes and Unraveling Unsolved Mysteries

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Investigative Journalist Billy Jensen on Solving True Crimes and Unraveling Unsolved Mysteries · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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  Speaker 1: I remember being in a small town in Italy, struggling
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  Speaker 1: That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash P-O-D. Start your journey to
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  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Welcome back to Misunderstood.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Rachel Yucatel. Today, we dive into the
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: intricate world of true crime with a special guest who
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: has not only reported on some of the most baffling cases,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: but has also taken it upon himself to solve them. Today,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: we are honored to have Billy Jensen back on the program.
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  Speaker 1: He's an investigative journalist renowned for his relentless pursuit of
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: justice for unsolved murders and missing persons. After 17 years
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: of writing countless stories with no closure, Billy decided to
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: take matters into his own hands, combining traditional investigative methods
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  Speaker 1: with modern digital techniques. His efforts have led to the
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: solving of 10 homicides and the successful location of several
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: missing persons. Billy has brought his investigative skills to television
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: as a senior producer and investigator for Crime Watch Daily.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: an executive producer and co-host of Unraveled on Discovery +.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: He also co-hosts the First Degree podcast and co-created Jensen
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: and Holes, the Murder Squad podcast. Billy's dedication to true
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: crime was further highlighted when he helped complete Michelle McNamara's book,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I'll Be Gone in the Dark, after her untimely passing.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: In this episode, we explore some of the fascinating topics
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  Speaker 1: Billy has tackled throughout his career. Whether you're a true
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: crime enthusiast or new to the genre, this episode promises
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: to provide a compelling look into the blend of traditional
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: and innovative investigative techniques that are shaping the future of
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: crime solving. And we get into some of the most
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: exciting aspects cases right now that he's following and you
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: should be too. So please enjoy my conversation with Billy Jensen. Billy,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming back on Misunderstood. How
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: are you doing?
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I'm doing all right. How are you doing? Good.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: So it's been in the news recently. I had you
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: on before to talk about the Gilgo Beach murders.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Can we just get a little update on everything that's
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: happened since I saw you last and also like what's
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: going on today?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Well, with the Gilgo Beach case, obviously, you've got he's
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: been charged. I think probably he had been charged with
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: the three killings. He has been charged with the fourth
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: now since the last time that we talked. And we've
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: got he has not been charged with any of the
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: other bodies that have been found. You know, we've got
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: six other bodies there. So he's in jail right now
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: awaiting trial. It's going to take a really, really long time.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: his wife and kids apparently just left the house because
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: they were searching the house. And it looks like they're
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: maybe going to be digging up the backyard and things.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: And nobody really, everybody's being tight-lipped in terms of what
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: they're looking for. So that's the latest kind of update
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: that we have there. And apparently the wife has signed
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: a deal with Peacock, I believe, to do some sort
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: of a show or something like that. So they've been
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: following her around everywhere, which is, A little, you know,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: disconcerting for a lot of people. Obviously, New York has
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: the son of Sam law, which says that you're not
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: allowed to profit. If you're the perpetrator of a crime,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: you cannot profit from it. This came from when, you know, whether,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: you know, David Berkowitz wanted to write a book or
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: something along those lines, you can't do that. But that
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: does not extend to family members.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: So apparently, at the end of the day, we haven't
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: found out if he's going to be charged with the
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: client or he's charged right now. Right. But if he's
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: going to be found guilty or whatever, so would that
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: have anything to do with it? Because we haven't seen
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: the end of the trial.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, possibly. Yeah. I mean, nobody really wants to, uh, uh, obviously,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, if he ever wanted, he, he hasn't been
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: talking and if he wanted to come out and put
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: out a book or something like that, I'm not quite
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: sure what the, what the, um, what the legal ramifications
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: of that would be. But as far as, And a
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: lot of people are upset about that, obviously, just because,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: you know, this guy was living with her under her roof. Right, right.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I was reading today in the New York Post
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: that the son, the neighbors, and I don't know about
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: the wife, but are basically saying he didn't do this,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: which I think is an interesting comment because I was
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: shocked that they would even comment about such a thing. Mm-hmm.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: But also I was seeing that it is very circumstantial still.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: There's there's not hard evidence, at least that they are
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: bringing up. And they think that the people writing the
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: article were saying that they think that there is a
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: way for defense attorneys to get him off. Do you
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: have any thoughts?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Well, there's apparently there's apparently DNA that they have on
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: on from the I believe that maybe the belt or
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: something along those lines, you know, which they that's the
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: way that they uh, eventually nailed him because they had
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: followed him. And then he ate a piece of pizza. Uh,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: pizza is always used by the way, because there's a
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: lot of DNA on pizza crust. If you're a criminal,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: eat your crust. Don't worry about the carbs. And the, the, um,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: so there's a, there's a lot of evidence there. And
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: there's also, um, eyewitness evidence that he was the last
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: person seen with, um, with the, with the last victim
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: of the four.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Was that Amber?
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Uh, in, um, in, uh, uh, he, he had gone
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: over to her house and had, um, they tried to
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: flip him and, and, uh, roll him and say that,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: you know, Oh, this is my girlfriend. Get out of here.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Give me your money and everything. And he said, he
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: was upset and he said, I want a freebie after this.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: And they said that was a big ogre of a
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: guy and he drove a Chevy avalanche. They could have
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: solved this thing within, A month. Right. And the fact
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: that this went on for so long is really, you know,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: just shows how bad the Suffolk County Police Department was
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: back then.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: So is their key eyewitness the boyfriend? Because he met.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: It was a room with the roommate sort of. Yeah.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: But yes, there was two guys there.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, that would have been the guy
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: posing as the boyfriend.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's an eyewitness to say that he was
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: in the room with her and was upset with her
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: and had. So but I think the DNA evidence is
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: the biggest one. Right. Okay.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Interesting. All right. It will be interesting to see where
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: this goes. Have they put anything on the docket for
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: when the trial is going to start or when- Not.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: That I know of now. It's going to take a
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: long time. It will.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Okay. First of all, before we get into your book
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: and some of these other crimes that you're following and
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: things that I want to get into with you, can
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: you just give our listeners a little bit of your
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: background so they understand how long you've been doing this,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: why you've chosen to do this, how this became your path?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been doing this coming up on 25 years. And,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: you know, back in 1999, you couldn't make a living
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: doing true crime. And I only wanted to do unsolved murder.
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  Speaker 2: So I was working at a newspaper, the Village Voice
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  Speaker 2: on Long Island. They started a newspaper called the Long
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Island Voice. From there, I started stringing for the New
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: York Times. And that's when I started getting crime stories.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: So I would be writing crime stories. And got an
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: assignment from the post, didn't really like it. It felt
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: very exploitative. And I said, you know what? I just
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: want to do unsolved stuff, which meant I couldn't just become,
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I was on the path to becoming a crime reporter.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: So I became an editor and I ran, started being
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: a managing editor and ran newspapers, but then I would
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: write my stories on the side and then publish them there.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: So I started publishing stories and they always were unsolved
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: in nature. And they were, you know, they won awards
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: and things, but I came up with an idea on
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: how to solve some of these. And it was using
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: social media and using geotargeted social media advertising to try
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: and identify perpetrators based on grainy video of street crimes.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: And was that completely new at the time?
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody had been doing that as far as I know.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Every police department didn't get it, didn't understand it. And
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: I said, listen, this is something. So I would see,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: you know, I saw the first case was a guy
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: who was killed in, he was attacked on a street
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: in Chicago. And this guy attacked him, punched him, knocked
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: him out in the street. And then when people gathered
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: around him, the guy yelled at all the people and
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: then he left. And then 30 seconds to 45 seconds later,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: a cab ran over him and killed him. And they
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: couldn't identify this person for six months. And I said, well,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: let me give it a shot. And through a bunch
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: of different things that I read about in Chase Darkness,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: it was– we were able to identify him and I
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: went to Chicago and got other people to ID him
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: and I I, I, uh, cross-referenced it with, uh, the, uh,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: you know, they actually publish, which I don't believe in,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: but they publish the mugshots, uh, Cook County does. So
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: I was able to gather all that information, give it
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to the police. And then about four months, you know,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: they got an arrest warrant. He had fled. I told
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: them where he was and then they eventually got him
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: four months later. And then I was just hooked. of
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: doing it that way and spending a lot of money
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: on these ads and everything. And was able to, you know,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: solve by myself really at least, or identify, you know,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: about a half dozen and then help with the other
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: five or six.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: How hard is it to get people on board with you?
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Like if it's an unsolved crime, I feel like a
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: lot of people have kind of given up on it
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: or it's been forgotten in general. And you seem like
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: a one man band out there until someone finally says,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, I see what you're doing. And you probably
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: already almost solved it at that point, if not solved it.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: How hard is that?
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Calling up the police departments, this is what I do.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I say, hi, listen, I'm an investigative journalist, but I'm
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: not doing this for a publication. I saw you posted
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: this video. Do you need any help with it? Or
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: is it open? I say. And then they say, yeah,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: it's still open. I say, well, listen, this is what
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I do. Half of the people go, Oh, we already
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: have a website or we already have a Facebook. And
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, no, no, this isn't like Taylor Swift
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: could post this and it wouldn't be solved because we
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: have to get everybody within that, you know, square block
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: or square area or whatever. So I have to target
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: every person in that area and which is going to
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: cost money. And then, you know, maybe half the people
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: get it, half the people don't. So then from there,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I say, you know, if they say, no, we know
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: who it is, we're close. And then I just say, OK,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I'll leave you be. But if they say, yeah, we
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: need help with it. And it's been a lot more
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: receptive than it was eight years ago. When I was
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: initially doing it in 2016, you know, there was a
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: lot of resistance. But, you know, occasionally you would find
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: a cop that's just really into it. And then you'd
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: find cops that I would, I called up a cop
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: once in San Jose. And I saw this video of
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: this guy killing this other guy. And I said, you know,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: do you need help? And he said, yeah. But he said, oh,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: that's really interesting what you do. Can you help me
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: with this?
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: Dunaidial.
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Lift?
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Please. Are you going past Kimmage?
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: No.
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: Done deal cars you couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Um fugitive case and i said i don't really do
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: fugitive cases you know it's it's it's a whole different
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: beast you know who the person is you know fugitive
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: cases usually is what you see in america's most wanted
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: uh you know who the person is you know what
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: business they're in what their likes and dislikes are and
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: then you could say oh wait i go run i
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: go bowling with that guy that's fred it's not phil
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: and then you then they arrest him so i said
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: yes i said fine you know i wanted to help
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: and then he told me the guy was in mexico
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my God, I don't even
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: speak Spanish. How am I going to do this? And
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: then he showed me a picture of him and the
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: guy was a ginger. It's like a ginger American in Mexico.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, let me, this might be a
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: little bit easier. And I swear I posted the ad
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: and they thought it was in two different places. So, um,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Mesletown and Puerto Vallarta or something. And then, um, I
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: posted the ad, I found like where Americans would hang out.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I basically searched for like Hooters and places where Americans
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: would be. posted the ad around that radius and within
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: you know a week no no within sorry within an
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: hour i had you know his liquor store guy i
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: had his landlord i had all these people and then
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: he went running and then eventually we were able to
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: get him and um but that one took a while
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: but it.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Was just amazing how did that work do you have
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: to collaborate with the mexican police department.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I was able to say he's here, and then
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: he left, and then he's here, and then he's left.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And I was collaborating with my guy in San Jose,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: and then he was collaborating with Mexico. And Mexico, obviously,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of corruption there. So when he was arrested,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: when they finally got him, he asked, how much is
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: my bounty? Because I can double it. And that's usually
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: what happens in Mexico. Yeah. And then a lot of
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: times the guys will say, all right, give me, give me,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: you know, double the money. But luckily these guys said no.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: And they were, they were able to, um, uh, send
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: it back up here.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: So what was it like solving your first unsolved crime?
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, was it a rush? Was it exciting? Was
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: it emotional?
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: It was a, it was definitely a rush for like
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: 30 seconds. And then there was such a comedown because
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: you would be, I'd become so kind of close with
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: the family, his family. And he was raised by his aunt,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: and I had become very close with his– really, who
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: was in all– it was his sister, even though it
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: was kind of like his cousin, and Drexina. But it
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: was just– I became so close with him almost because
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: he was a very– he was a bartender. He was
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: a great dancer. He was always like nappily dressed, and
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: he was just like very just put-together guy. And just
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: to see him– you know, always put, you know, a
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: lot of care into his appearance and everybody loved him.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: And just to see him, sorry, I said Napoli dress.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: That's wrong. It's Natalie dress. Can we cut that out? Yeah,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: that's bad. Yeah. So he was always very dressed to
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the nines and very put together. And just to see
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: him just killed on the street like that. And then,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: you know, you kind of, I wanted to, you know,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: you want to meet this guy and he's dead, you know,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and that was the thing that I didn't expect. I
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: didn't expect that to happen. So, um, you know, it
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: was like a 30 minute rush and, and then, then
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: there was the, there was the rush of identifying him.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: And then there was the rush of getting the call
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: from Drexina saying they got him. And that was a
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: rush too. And that was a little bit better because
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: it was like, okay, they got him. Yeah. And, um,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I was able to share that with her, you know, so, yeah.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Um, it is interesting what you do and, looking at
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: all this stuff on you and your books, having read them,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you know, you're more than a journalist, I think, because
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: you really get involved in the family, the community, and
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: you are the one that's trying to almost have a
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: voice for the person that no longer has a voice.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: And you are the connection that's bringing their case full circle.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: And I think that that's, you know, I can really
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: appreciate that. I think what you do is great.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm friends with these people mostly on Facebook,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you know, but they'll text me or whatever. And just, they,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of times they just want to talk. So,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: you know, my blue light's always on, on Facebook and, um,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: you know, they'll see it at 2am and just want
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: to talk. And, um, they just, you know, cause the
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: police have stopped talking to them. The police have a
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: lot of other murders, you know, there's 5,000 unsolved murders
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: every year. Yeah.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that. I, I
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: been looking this up. I saw that there's currently over 200,000
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: unsolved murders with about five to 6,000 increasing yearly.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's more, it's, it's like, I mean, I wrote
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: that back in 2016, it's like two 50 now. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: And like, have you, did you follow that, um, uh,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: docuseries on Netflix, uh, American nightmare?
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I did not, no.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: So do you remember the story of the couple that
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: was in California and the girlfriend got kidnapped while they
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: were in their home together? The Vallejo Police Department accused
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: the boyfriend.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: So that story, we had the journalist on here who
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the rapist was contacting him and the police department still
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: didn't believe him. It was crazy. But it's so interesting
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: that that there are all these unsolved mysteries, murders, and
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: cops move from one thing to the next. And it
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: almost seems, you know, this was like a number one
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: show on Netflix that people were obsessed about a couple
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: months ago, but it really brought to light the fact that,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: you know, police are human, and a lot of times
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: if they're not interested in it, they move on to
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: another person, or they pinpoint who they think it is and,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: you know, don't follow the signs, and so many things
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: go unsolved. Which brings me into something I want to
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: talk to you about because I was reading it in
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: some of your work about how a lot of there's
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: not anything that's streamlined right now. Like if there's a
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: murder in New Hampshire and there are things going on
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: in New Hampshire, there's no way to kind of put
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: it into the system and know that this exact thing
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: is going on. maybe in Massachusetts somewhere that maybe the
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: guy is a serial killer and you can connect the dots.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: And that's actually what happened in the American Nightmare case.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: That's how it was solved. And there's also another show
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: called Unbelievable with a rape where it was solved in
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: a different space because of one cop who really was
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: connecting the dots, but it wasn't through a system. What
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that?
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's definitely gotten better, but yeah, there's no
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: centralized database for unsolved murders. There's no centralized database for
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: missing persons or unidentified remains. How is that possible?
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Are they trying to create one?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: There is one called NamUs for unidentified remains and missing persons,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: but the problem is that they're not forced to do it.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: It's all voluntary. It's possible because I remember complaining about this.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: I was on a History Channel show about D.B. Cooper.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: We were trying to solve the D.B. Cooper case, and
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: they paired me with a former deputy director of the FBI,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: a guy named Tom Fuentes, really nice guy. And I
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: was complaining to him about this. And he said, it's
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: because when they started the country, they were worried about tyranny.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: They weren't worried about this. So that's why you have 17,000
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: different police departments and AGs and different jurisdictions and everything
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: not talking to each other. And, you know, as far
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: as the police moving on to things, they've got a
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: lot of cases that are just, especially the inner city stuff,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: you know, they've got one case and then they could
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: work it for a little bit and then they're going
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: to get another case on top of it. And if
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: they don't solve it within a week, it's going to go. Right.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: It's just what happens. They're just waiting for somebody to,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: to probably usually to tell on somebody else. So you
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: have this system that you, that, and it's because why,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: why it's because we have so many guns and we
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: have so much drugs and we have so many gangs
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: and we have so much transient population, and we have
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a distrust of the cops. And so you add all
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: of that together. That's the reason why.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: You talked earlier about how expensive it is to kind
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: of follow the trail on a lot of these things.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Are individuals from families of unsolved murders calling you and
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: asking to hire you or police departments funding it? How
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: does it get funded?
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, hell no. No, that was just funded by my
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: savings or whatever I was making, you know, at the time.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And that's what I still do now, you know, just
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: dipping into my savings being like, I want to spend
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: $ 500 on this ad, that kind of thing. It all
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: goes to Facebook and now to Instagram and then to
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Twitter and just trying to geotarget these ads. It doesn't
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: go to my travel or anything like that. It just
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: goes straight to that.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Incredible.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Okay. So I want to ask you how you pick
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the unsolved murders that you kind of get obsessed with
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: that you want to follow.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: So what I do is... You know, and the cases
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: that I'm doing are not cases that they would ever
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: make a movie out of or be on Netflix or whatever.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: You know, these are usually things that happen on the street.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: And I have Google Alerts set up so I see
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: every video of, hey, we're looking for this person or
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a still picture or something like that from security cameras.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: I take that and I kind of file it away
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: for two weeks. Then I'll go back and I'll do
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: a Google search on it and to see if they've
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: caught the person. So I do a Google search based
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: on usually the victim's name. Most of the time they've
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: caught the person. Sometimes they haven't. From then, if it's
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: a video that I'm thinking, wow, it's two weeks. They
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: haven't caught him. That's a pretty good video. I bet
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: if I got that in front of the right person,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: they would be able to ID that person. Then I
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: go to the police. I explain the situation. This is
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: what I do. I don't want the reward. The reward's
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: for the tipster. I don't need anything else. I'll keep
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: in contact with you. This is it. And then, you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: most of the time now they say, okay, and then, um,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: then it's off to the races. So it really is
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: based on, you know, the, the evidence that's at hand and, um,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: and really how well the, you know, I've been working
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: with a police department in the Philadelphia police department and
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: they do their video really well. Uh, you have a
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: lot of people that just will just throw up the video.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: These guys, are, and women are posting the video, they
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: are stopping it and then pointing to look at his shoes.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: These look like Adidas, blah, blah, blah, like that kind
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: of stuff that you don't see in most police departments.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I got to give them kudos for that. And we
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: worked and we were able to identify and get cases
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: on two people. And then I'm working on another one
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: with them now. So that's one of the things that
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I wish more police departments would do. you know, just
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: a little bit extra effort in their AV squad.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: I've always been curious because you end up seeing videos
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: of people in certain circumstances on the streets. How many
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: cities have random cameras on all street corners?
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Well, everybody has cameras. You know, it's just a matter
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: of the fact that you've got, you know, the traffic cameras,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: you've got individual security cameras. None of them are linked.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: None of the traffic cameras are, but none of them
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: are linked. None of them are synced. You know, so if,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: you know, one might have a clock that's wrong or
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: something like that. It's different over in England where you've
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: got a lot of security cameras.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: Where? Dunaidial.
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on done deal cars.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: Lift, please.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: You're going past Kimmage.
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: No. Done deal cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: They're all linked that are from the government. Here, it's different. So, again,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: that's civil liberties and all that. So you've got to,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: you know, the police have to go around and go
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: to different businesses or residences. whether they have a ring
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: camera or something like that and say, even if it
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: was something that happened an hour earlier and didn't capture
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: the murder, but caught somebody walking down, that's such a
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: big part now of, um, investigations. And I remember during,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, during BLM and, uh, there was a
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: kid who had, um, been found hanging. Um, um, he
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: was a black man, young black man, I think it
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: was like 18 or 19 had been found hanging in
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: a park in Palmdale, uh, And the police said there
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: were no security cameras. And I said, it's a public park.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: There's a ton of security cameras around there. This is bullshit.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go up there. And I went up
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: there and I took a picture of every security camera.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: And I talked to the people and said, do you
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: have the footage and everything like that? And then I
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: posted online and said, you're lying here. All these people
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: have this. So it's a matter of just, you know,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: like good journalism, it's shoe leather reporting, shoe leather detective work.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: You have to go. Don't just call. you know, go
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: to each place and say, Hey, do you have footage?
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Can we have it? Can we look through it and
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: see if there's a person there?
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Um, so I want to talk about your book killer
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: amidst killers, killers amidst killers.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Um, it's a great book. Um, I think it's really
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: interesting because again, like you said before, you're not coming
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: from a place of talking about murders that we unsolved
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: murders that we've all heard of. Um, these are people
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that are involved in middle America. A lot of the
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: women are sex workers and it's fueled by a lot
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: of women that have, you know, their lives depend on
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: making money to you know, by selling themselves and to
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: pay for drugs and to, you know, it's, it's not
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the people that we have next door. And a lot
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: of those times, those women, um, or people who are
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: murdered are forgotten. So, um, I think the book was fantastic. Um,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: how did you come across these two girls that you
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: first started, um, looking into their murders?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. In 2000, I think it was 17. I was
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: working at a show called crime watch daily with Chris
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Hansen and the, um, it was a Warner brothers show. And,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I came across this story of these two best friends
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: who lived together, who in a house in Columbus, whose
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: bodies were found, went missing at the same time. Bodies
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: were found about a month apart, about 30 miles outside
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: of town in fields. And I said, there's something going
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: on here. That's an interesting story. There had been one
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: story written on it. And I drove out, you know,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I flew out there with a camera crew. And we
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: went to, they were staying at this home for lost children,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: which is not, it was just this guy's house. So
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: we drove up there and in, this was in South Columbus.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: And it was, I remember everybody scattered and I had
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: a police detail with me or undercover detail. And then the,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: you know, I started talking to the people there about
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: the women. And I talked to this one woman comes
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: out and they said, well, let's go get Cece. They
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: bring this this woman named Cece out. And she looked like,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: you know, a regular person that you'd see at a mall.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm talking to her and she was their third
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: best friend. And she was saying, you know, as I'm
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: talking to her, I got this sense that like, I'm
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: talking to the next victim. And she said something. There's always,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: whenever you're interviewing for a book or a project, a
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: lot of times you will have one thing that hits
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: you that feels the next project. And, or just hits
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: you where you can't shake it. And she said something
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: that I couldn't shake, which, which was, I said, does
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: it give you any pause to get into a car?
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, but I have to, cause I'm
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: a drug addict. And that just hit me and I
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: couldn't shake that. So then I said, I have to
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: keep on looking into this. And I wasn't doing for,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: you know, we did the story for crime watch daily.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: And I wanted to keep looking in and say, how
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: many women have actually been murdered in this town that
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: they haven't found? And, you know, there was apparently there
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: was a guy named that might have been a pimp
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: named White Boy. And they had his phone number. And
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I'm talking to the police and I'm like, well, why
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: can't you? And then they're like, he's missing. This is
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: how bad some police departments are. It's like, oh, he's missing.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: We can't find him. He's in the wind. They said
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: that was the quote. And I said, they gave me
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: his phone number. He said, all we got is his
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: phone number, right? And I do a Google search for
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: the phone number. And I find there's another girl that
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: he's put out there. You know, there's an ad, a
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: sex ad for another woman. So I said, I go
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: back to the police. I said, I'm not going to
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: call this because it would screw it up. up, but
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: I will eventually. But why don't we, why don't you
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: set up a sting? Why don't you set up a date?
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: And then he'll probably be in the parking lot and
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: then you can grab him. And they were just like,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: we're not going to do the investigation that way. I
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: was like, well, you're not doing anything. And the murders
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: are still on sale. So it was that sort of stuff,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of jurisdictional nonsense, too, because the bodies were
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: found in Fairfield County. They lived in Columbus. It's like
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And I would eventually find about
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: 18 missing or murdered women starting in Columbus and then
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: moving to Middletown, Ohio, and then moving to Chillicothe. It
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: had gotten a lot of play back in the day.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Some of the women whose bodies were found are ODs.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And whoever is with them just dumps their bodies. Some
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: of the women are murders. And these murders are kind
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: of happening under the cloak of, oh, these are just
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: ODs because they don't find the bodies for a long time.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: And this is what was going on there. So that's
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: what I wrote about. And even though the book takes
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: place in Ohio, it's happening everywhere. And especially now with
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: how bad fentanyl is. Because the thing about fentanyl is
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: fentanyl is really actually cheap to get a blue um
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: it's you know one or two bucks but it lasts
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: so little so you have to get 30 or 40
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: a day and um it's the barrier of entry and
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: it's so easy to make too because it's synthetic it's
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: not like heroin where you have to get the poppy
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: from overseas and bring it over so we are in
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: such a bad place right now with uh with the
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: fentanyl and people are talking about it a little bit
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: but nobody really cares and You know, these are actually
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: the people that are dying from it now are actually
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: people that are our neighbors and are our family members
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: that are dying from it. Yeah.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Crazy. A couple other interesting things came out from
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: reading your book. I was shocked about this topic you
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: did about Stormy Daniels. You talked about how she was
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: arrested in Columbus in 2018 at sirens for murder. illegal
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: sexually oriented activity in a sexually oriented business. Will you
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: tell everybody about this story? I thought this was crazy.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this was the Columbus vice squad who was incredibly
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: corrupt and actually was disbanded because of how bad it was.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: And they had gone in, and this was definitely politically
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: motivated because it was Stormy Daniels. And obviously she has
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: a history with Donald Trump. They go in, They the
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: police go in undercover to, you know, she was touring
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: strip clubs, not from Columbus, but she was touring strip
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: clubs doing her thing. And the cops were there and
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: she you know, they were they were kind of, you know,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: doing things that strip club patrons do. And she was
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: rubbing up against them, which is what, you know, dancers
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: do sometimes. And she was arrested for that, along with
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: a bunch of other women that were dancing there. And
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: that was, you know, the case was thrown out, but
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: that just shows you what was going on with the
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Vice Squad and how political it was. And, you know,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Vice Squad's typically them and internal affairs. Internal affairs often
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: are people that had gotten caught and then they become
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: internal affairs investigators, at least it used to be. But
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Vice Squad, you're dealing with drugs, prostitution and gambling. So
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: you've got a lot of corruption there. especially back in
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: the day, but, but these guys were really bad. And then, um, uh,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: you know, they were, you know, they, they picked up
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Stormy Daniels on this, uh, no pun intended trumped up charge. Right. Right.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Um, and it says here that the four, um, she
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: sued the four cops in the city, paid her $ 450, 000
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: for wrongful arrest.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, the vice squad was costing the
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: police department also so much money too.
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Um, speaking of the vice cop, um, Andrew Mitchell, the
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: cop that was a suspect, whatever happened to him?
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, he's in jail. Yeah. No, he's in prison for
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: a long time for, he actually didn't, he got off
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: on that murder. Um, that, uh, so what happened was
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: he was a corrupt cop. Uh, he would pick up women, um, and, uh,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: who were sex workers and say, I can arrest you
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: or you can have sex with me, which is rape.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: So he would do this to women. He picked up
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: this one woman. He drove her to the back of
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: an alleyway and drove really close up to a brick wall.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: So she couldn't get her door out. The passenger side
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: was up against a brick wall. She couldn't open and
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: get out. So she's trapped. He's not in uniform. So
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: she thinks she's going to be killed because obviously there's
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: people killing sex workers out there. So she takes out
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: her knife, stabs him in the hand, and then tries
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: to escape into the back seat so she can get
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: out the other way. He takes out his gun and
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: shoots her six times. And he got off on that,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: which is insane. But he's gotten caught for a lot
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: of other things.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: He got off on it on what? How?
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: On saying it was, you know, because she stabbed him first.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Got it. Self-defense.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Self-defense.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: That's incredible.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: What are some, so I just want to get back
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: to the, to the sex workers and the drug fueled
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: issues that go into this in middle America. And it's
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: similar to the Gilgo beach killing because that was sex
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: workers as well. I, I think that's interesting because that's
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: in long Island, which I mean, still connected to New York.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: It's not as like, it's not like middle America where like,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: drugs are, I think more rampant than in the outskirts,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: but like is, is drug issues. I mean, is that
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: happening everywhere now? Is this just happening more and more?
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Everywhere. It's happening everywhere. Yeah. We are in such a, um, um,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: a crisis of monumental proportions and you see it. And
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: it's also with the fentanyl, it's a lot of times
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: it's point that you're being, it's poisoning more than it
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: is an overdose. They'll call it an overdose. Like But
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: there was that story of the four comedians who were
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: out in L.A.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: Dunaidial.
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundiel Cars.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Lift? Please.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: You going past Kimmage?
• 36:24
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: No.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Done deal cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Three of them died. They were doing coke and it
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: was laced with fentanyl. So before it used to be,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: don't do coke because there's going to be fentanyl in it.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Now it's never take a pill unless you get it
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: from your doctor. So if you're at a party, there's
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: so many stories of young kids who are at a
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: party and someone's like, here, take a Xanax. Here, take
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: a Vicodin. And they take it and it was, you know,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: you think a pill, oh, it's got a stamp on it.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: It looks like it's official. no, it was made in
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: somebody's basement and they're adding fentanyl to it because it's cheap.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: So these kids take this and it only takes a
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: little bit and then they die. And it's something that
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: we're just, we're seeing it happen. We're shrugging. There's been
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of, it's not a, when it comes to
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: true crime, it's not a sexy story. People in true
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: crime want serial killers they want, you know, but this
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: is the ultimate serial killer here. This is killing more
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: people than anybody. Right.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's very scary.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Talk to me about some of the cases that people
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: have heard about, like the Iowa four, the murders there,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: or any, any thoughts on bigger crimes right now there
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: that we're not seeing something that you might see?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the thing with, with what's happened with the
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: glut of true crime, Is, you know, so, and let
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: me take you back, like, historically a little bit. So,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: you know, true crime really, listen, true crime is old
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: as history. You know, the Bible starts with a true
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: crime story, you know, but we've got, so people were
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: always interested in murder stories, obviously, with the Penny Dreadfuls
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: in the 1800s, it got bigger, and the Old West stories,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: which were kind of true crime. Then it was the
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: pulp magazines, which were really geared more towards men than
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: to women, if you take a look at the old ads.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: They were for things like Be Taller or Charles Atlas ads,
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Then it became these paperback books
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: like Anne Rule, Stranger Beside Me, the Ted Bundy. And
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: then it switched more towards to females. And like my mom,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: my mom used to read those books all the time.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: So then you've got... So it was always under the
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: radar for a really long time. And you had ID
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: and everything, but really it had... The OJ trial was
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: a tipping point. So the OJ trial introduced forensics to everyone.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: And everyone's like, wow, this is really interesting forensics. Obviously,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: it was a huge case, devastating case. It had a celebrity.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: It had a pretty white girl who was the victim,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: which is a theme that you'll see throughout true crime.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: So that whet the public's appetite, but it still was
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: not ready to go mainstream yet. What happened in between
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: was CSI and NCIS and law and order. So those procedurals,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: everybody got really into that for a really long time.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: And then you had ID and it was still very
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: much under the radar. Then Making a Murderer came out. Well,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: then Serial came out first, then Making a Murderer, and
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: then it exploded. So now you've got all these podcasts,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: all of these Netflix, everybody ran to it. It goes
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: in waves. A lot of them don't want to do
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: murder anymore. They want to do scams. They want to
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: do like, you know, people that con artists, that kind
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: of thing, anything that's kind of duplicitous or whatever, unless
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: it's a big murder.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Like the Dirty John cases, stuff like that.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that kind of stuff. So you see those cases
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: and you don't, what you've got now is you've got
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: all of the the crimes that were always the big,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: when you think about the biggest true crime stories in history,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: you know, number one, uh, that's been written about the
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: most is, is JFK, but let's put that aside for
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: a second and the, and the Bible stuff. Um, but the,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: the is, um, is the Manson case. Uh, and then
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: you've got OJ and JonBenet, you know, all with a,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: with a white female victim, you know, that's usually what's
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: going to sell more than anything. Uh, that's just the
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: way that, everything is, um, which is unfortunate. So, um,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: but we've gotten to a place where that's why Bundy, everybody,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: you know, has, but was, was such a big case
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: and they're still making movies about this schmuck to this day.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: When you get to, we've, we've made so many stories
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: and so many movies and documentaries, you're running sort of
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: out of, of crime. So then when a story happens,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: like the awful case in Idaho, where you do have
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: white female victims, everybody's going to jump on it. So
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: with that guy, you're going to see a lot of
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: shows about this guy. There's going to be very little information.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: I don't think he's going to talk. And that's what
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: you're seeing now. Everybody wants the serial killer. Everybody wants
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: the criminal to be a guy that talks. They don't
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: talk anymore. BTK used to write letters And then he
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: talked a little bit. Obviously Bundy represented himself. Berkowitz used
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: to write letters. Zodiac used to write letters, you know,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: but when it comes to, you know, long, we just
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: solved long house hero killer. This guy hasn't talked. Golden
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: state killer. This guy hasn't talked and they're not gonna,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: you know, so it's, there's a lot less to work with.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: So when you get a guy like Idaho, you know,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: little drips and drabs are going to come out and
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: come out. But as far as it being a, like
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: a big series or anything like that. People will make it,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: but it's not going to be that, that interesting. And
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: that's where we are right now. Yeah.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: The court of public opinion obviously has already deemed him
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: to be the killer. Do you think he's the killer?
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't, I haven't listened to all the evidence.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: You know, it looks like it's pretty circumstantial at this point.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: I'm an Occam's razor guy. So I'm always going to say, listen, bottom,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: it's probably the killer. And they knew that everybody was
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: looking at them on this. They knew they had to
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: do something. They had, you know, they put a lot
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: of manpower on this case. So they have a lot
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: of evidence of, seems like a lot of the evidence
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: is the cell phone tower evidence. But I don't know
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: if they've got DNA or anything like that. So I
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: can't really speak on that. But I guess it looks
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: pretty good.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Are there cases that you're still shocked haven't been solved,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: like JonBenet Ramsey? Do you think that will ever be solved?
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: No, that'll never be solved.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Do you have an idea? Are you going to try
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: and solve it?
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: I go back and forth.
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: No.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: You know, the cases that I work on, there's enough
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: people that are looking at that case.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Why do you think they haven't figured it out yet?
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: Because it's so messed up.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Do you think that they screwed it up from the beginning?
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: No.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Hang on one second. Sorry, my Siri is on for
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: some reason. Somebody must have said, hey Siri. They, yeah,
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: they definitely did screw it up from the beginning by letting,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: by not taking the family out of the house and let,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: you know, that sort of thing. You know, I go
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: back and forth with it. I hate to speculate on
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: these things, but you know, you'll listen to one, you know,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: there was definitely somebody that had inside information just based
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: on that letter. It's definitely somebody that had watched the
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Mel Gibson movie Ransom because there was a lot of
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: language in there that was very similar to the note. Obviously,
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: the note had the $ 118, 000 or whatever it was bonus
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: that he had. So that was weird. Occam's Razor, which
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: I'm always a guy of, which is not necessarily the
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: simplest explanation is the best one. It's the explanation that
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: has the least amount of assumptions. So to assume that
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: somebody broke into the house, killed this little girl without
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: anybody knowing, sat there, wrote a letter that had so
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: many details about that only really the family would know,
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: and then left, that's a big assumption versus somebody inside
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: the house saying, perpetrated this crime and then they might
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: have covered it up or did something to cover it up.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: There's less of an assumption there, less assumptions that you
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: have to make. So, you know, same thing with OJ.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: They kept on coming up with OJ. It could have
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: been a serial killer. It could have been this or this. Like, no,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: there's less of the, the less assumption is, is that
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: this is a guy who used to beat her all
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: the time. And even putting all of the, you know,
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: the physical evidence aside, you know, this is the guy
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: that did it. So, you know, I think that it
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: still points to people that were sort of inside the house,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: but there is still a lot of, you know, it's
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: just a tragic case. And that's one of those cases
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: that people will talk about, you know, forever. Yeah.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Is there a case that you're obsessed with now?
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: I am. I'm working on this case in Philadelphia of
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: this kid who his name is Everett Beauregard. He was
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: walking around where Drexel is. And he had just come
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: back from a board game night. And he was walking
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: down the street and a guy walks past him. He
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: just walks past him and then turns around and shoots
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: him in the back of the head. And then shoots
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: him three times as he's running away from him. And
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: then is off into the night. And it's so random
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: and so awful. And there's video of it and pretty
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: clear video of it. And I've been working on that one.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: So that one I would really, and I talked to
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: the family, just talked to the dev. last week, that's
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: one that I would really like to solve. There's so little,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: there was a, on the one year anniversary, there was
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: some graffiti placed right where he was killed, which could
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: be a clue, could be absolutely nothing. The graffiti says
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: JPEG and tagging a script. So that's one that I
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: definitely would like to see solved. And these take, I
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: was doing one that was a hit and run And
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: it was a specific– it was a definitely– the guy
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: wanted to definitely run over this guy at a gas
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: station in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I started that one
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: in 2016 and they just made the arrest now. So
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: this stuff takes– it can take a while, but it's
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: still– you just got to stay on it. And what
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: I tell people is if you want to do this
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: as a citizen, it helps if you've got journalism background
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: and everything. But this is– I remember going– going to
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: adopt a dog. And there's a sign up that says,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: are you ready? Are you ready to make this 15
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: year commitment? This is a lifetime commitment, you know, and
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: you could never, ever tell a family I'm too busy.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: You can never, if you get into this, you're in it,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: you know? Um, and, um, you just got to stick
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: with it and, uh, and hopefully something will happen.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: You mentioned the word meaningless. How often are crimes found
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: to be random? I mean, I know when you're watching
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: 48 hours or even that.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: Dunaidial.
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Lift? Please.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: Are you going past Kimmage?
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: No.
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: Dundale Cars.
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: ID network, which I used to love, they would always say,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: it's usually someone that you've known, or there's some sort
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: of connection, but there are some that are completely meaningless
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: and random. Is there a statistic on that?
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: There probably is somewhere, but there's somebody unsolved that you
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: don't know. But remember, a lot of these crimes are
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: happening on the street. Yeah. Definitely, if it's a woman,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: it's usually somebody that she knows. Absolutely. But men are
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: the majority of homicide victims. So it might be somebody
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: that they were in business with. It might be a rival.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: It might be over drugs. It might be over anything. Yeah. So, um,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: it depends, but yeah, like the, that's the thing is
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: just like, we've, we've sort of trained true crime fans
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: into watching these shows and the shows that they're watching,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: you know, I would say probably 90% of true crime
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: shows have a female in it. somewhere. It's either a
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: female victim or a female perpetrator, or it's a guy
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: killing a man over a female. Right. You know, most murders,
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: that isn't it. That's not what happens. Most murders, it's
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: male on male crime. That's it. There's no female involved
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: or anything like that. They just don't make shows about that.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: So when everybody's talking about, you know, true crime is
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: not crime. True crime is its own sort of thing
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: that's out there that's very separate and it's not representative
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: of what real crime is in America. Right.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: It's more pop culture.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: A little bit.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: You mentioned Making a Murderer before, which, by the way,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I loved that series or whatever you call it. What
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: do you do you think? What was his name? Stephen Avery.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Do you think that he is ever going to get
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: out of prison? Do you think he's innocent?
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Again, Occam's Razor, the It's definitely, you know, they tried to,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: I didn't like that show just for a sense of that.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: They left things out. They had eight episodes or 10
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: episodes and they didn't include the DNA that was found,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: the sweat DNA that was found on the hood latch.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: It's like, and then they said, we didn't have enough time.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: And so I was like, no, you had enough time.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: You could have put that in there. Even if you
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: were going to say that it was planted, you could
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: have put that in there, that sort of stuff. They
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: had an agenda. to say that this guy was guilty
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: or innocent. The Occam's razor is that he did it. Obviously,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: you know, he had answered the door in a towel.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: She didn't like this guy. She had actually complained about him.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: The car was found there. Whether he was, you know,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: it's a good story that he was framed because he
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: was owed the money from the police department. It was,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: I would say 90% that he did it and 10%
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: somebody else in that enclave, wherever they were, did it. Yeah. Right.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: But not planted by the police who didn't want to pay.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: I think they probably framed a guilty man. I think
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: they planted some of that evidence. Definitely.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: Not to say definitely, but yeah. But not for no reason.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, that used to happen all the time. that's,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why we had a 90%,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: you know, in 1960, we had a 90% clearance rate
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: of murders in America. Now it's down to like 55.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: So 55, 45% of murders in America are not going
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: to be solved this year. Um, when I started, it
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: was like 64, you know, so it's going down and
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: down and down. And, uh, but, uh, and a lot
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: of that was, is that they used to beat the
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: hell out of people that got confessions in 1960, but
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: you also had less murders. You didn't have Everybody knew everybody.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: People trusted the cops. They would inform on other people,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: as good citizens should do. And, you know, that kind
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: of thing. But now it's totally different. People don't talk
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: to each other. They're not neighbors. There's a lot of drugs,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of guns and that kind of thing.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Besides the case you're following in Philadelphia, is there anything that,
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: is there a case that might be bigger that we
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: know about that rings a lot of bells for you
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: that you're like, people are not looking at this one
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: piece of evidence or they have somebody that you don't
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: believe is the right person in custody? Or is there
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: anything kind of in the back of your head that
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to you?
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think going back to Long Island, just because
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I did do the Unraveled podcast and I'm from Long Island,
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: the fact that we've got four, we've got four murders. It's, it's,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: he might've done the others. He might not have. Um,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: but I think that there's, I'm worried that we're just going,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: everyone's just like, Oh, the Long Island serial killer was
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: caught and they're not going to look at these other
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: six murders. And that's a case that I actually worked
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: on that I went before it was even a Long
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Island serial killer. Like I worked on the peaches case.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: It was, um, black woman whose body was found in
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: a Hempstead Lake Park, Hempstead Town Lake Park. And also
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: her parts of her body and her baby were found
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: along Ocean Parkway. I had worked that back in like,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: you know, in 2002 or something like that. You know,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: I'd sent a reporter out to do one of the
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: cases of the women that were found in the Pine
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Barrens back in 2003 or something. So It's, you know,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: I've been connected to that case and being from Long
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Island and everything and having worked it and having, you know,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: interviewed a lot of different people that were on it.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: So I really want to see all of those victims
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: get the same amount of play. Obviously, you know, Shannon Gilbert,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: who I think that was a death and misadventure. I
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: don't I don't think she she was she was the
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: initial woman. She was able to bring so much light
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: onto the case. Uh, but, uh, and now, you know,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: obviously the four women, um, the, the canonical Gil go for,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: but the other victims out there, I definitely want to see.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: And there's other victims that are, um, similar in, you know,
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: on Long Island that I would like to see solved.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: There's one victim that's known as cherries, a lot of, um,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: unidentified victims that are out there, you know, in Long
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: Island was, you had a lot of serial killers on
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: Long Island in my, my school, my hometown, I had two.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: I had Joel Rifkin and a guy named Robert Schulman,
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: you know, and Joel Rifkin is still has the number,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: you know, he's got 17 serial killings and that's the, um,
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: and when they interviewed him actually about, and he said
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: that the Long Island serial killer was sloppy, he would
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: have never put the bodies all in one location. That
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: was back before they had solved it.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Wow. So, do you think the, the six bodies that
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: still have not been tied to Rex, the guy who
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: has been, is that his name? Um, that has been
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: accused of the murders of the other four. Do you
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: think it is likely that he is the one that
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: is responsible for those deaths? Or do you think there
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: is another person that.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: Could be attributed? Yeah, he's not responsible for all of them.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: The Manorville two, who are the women who were dismembered
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: in Manorville and their heads were found in, um, in
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Gilgo or a long ocean parkway possibility. They were killed
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: before the other four. It's a possibility. And we had
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: thought about that. Maybe this guy had initially in order
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: to hide the victim's identities had gone through the trouble of,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: of chopping them up, excuse me. And, and then when
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: nobody found them thought, you know what, why am I,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: why am I going through this and I'll just bury them.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: That definitely could have happened. Could have been somebody else.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Could have been a guy named John Bittroff, who is
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: in prison right now. The you know, you've got peaches
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: in the baby. You've got an Asian male who is
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: dressed in women's clothing. You know, you've got a lot
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: of other bodies that are not even. So I don't
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: think he did peaches or I don't I just don't
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: see that now.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: You know, it's so interesting because I would love to
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: be a fly on the wall in those conversations that
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: police are having with them. I'm so curious if their
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: tactic would be they just want to get a conviction
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: on some of these deaths or if they're going to
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: come up with some sort of a plea deal because
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: they want the answers.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: You know what, though? They didn't do that with with GSK.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: I was hoping to do that with Golden State Killer,
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: where the plea deal that they had to do for him.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: You know, listen, they saved a lot of money by
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: giving him a plea deal because that trial would have
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: gone on and on and on, would have cost the
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: state millions and millions of dollars. But I thought that
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: if they gave him a plea deal, maybe he would
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: give other evidence and say, oh, by the way, I
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: also did this, this and this crime. Because there was
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: a ton of crimes that he easily could have done.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: If he stopped when they say he stopped, that's fine.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: But there was another a lot of crimes in between
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: when he was the Vassalia ransacker until, you know, when
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: he was caught, when he was when he was when
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: he stopped. Uh, he didn't say anything and still hasn't
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: said anything, you know? So I was hoping that that
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: would happen, but that doesn't, that's not necessarily the case.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: They'll just say, all right, you know, you're guilty for
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: these and then that's it. So I would like to
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: find out from, um, from Golden State Killer. And I
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: tried after that happened, after they finally got him, my
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: first thought was, okay, they got him build a timeline
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: on where this guy was. And, you know, he was
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: overseas and then he was back here. And who else
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: could he have murdered and found a couple people who
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: thought they definitely had been in contact with him and
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: found one woman who saw his picture and said, that
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: was definitely the man that attacked me.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: I'm so curious because you've worked so long on this
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Gilgo Beach case. Have you ever tried to reach out
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: to the wife? I mean, I feel like she's somebody
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: who obviously wants to talk since she's doing a Peacock special.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: And because you know so much about this, I feel
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: like you can infiltrate her.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That woman's not talking because she's getting paid to
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: talk by Peacock. So she'll never say anything for the
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: most part, unless it's really to potentially help the trial
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: or something like that. She's saving it all for For that.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: And quite frankly, what else? What is she going to say?
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Is she going to say, oh, I knew he was
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: doing that? Then you're complicit. You know, she's not going
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: to have anything really. You know, they already know timeline wise. Yes,
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: they were out of the state when he did these,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: you know, these crimes. And we knew it was probably
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: something along those lines because he would always pick he picked,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: you know, weekends. He picked days when it was usually
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: in the summer. And it turns out his family was away.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: And we thought that was definitely a possibility that this
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: guy was going to be somebody that, you know, we
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: knew he was probably a South Shore guy, which he was,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: you know, but they did certain things like they knew
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: he had been calling, you know, victims, you know, using
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: the victims. phone to call the sister of one of
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: the victims. And they they traced the call, but they
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: didn't record the call. It's like there's this like sloppy
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: things like that that happened. But again, I go back
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: to that. They had they had it right there. When
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: you when you have a six foot seven ogre of
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: a man that drives a Chevy Avalanche and There's not
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: many people that are like that. Nobody had a Chevy.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen a Chevy Avalanche on
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: Long Island, you know, and that was not a common car.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: So the fact that they, they could have just gone
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: through Chevy Avalanches and, and try and done interviews and
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: found the ogre and been able to go from there.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: They could have, they could have gotten this done within
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: a month. And then it makes you realize like, wow,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't, I don't, You know, whether he
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: had stopped by then or not, who knows? It's very
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: easy that he could have stopped it in the same
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: way that Golden State Killer, Golden State Killer stopped, we think,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: right around the same time that DNA became part of
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: criminal investigations. You know, there was a case in England
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: and it was just like, it seems like he stopped
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: right around that time. Right. This guy, it seems like
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: he stopped, you know, if he did right around, you know,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: obviously when they found the bodies and it became front
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: page news.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: I'm curious because you're so heavily involved in true crime.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite podcast or a show or
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: a network that you really love?
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: A network? No. You know, as far as true crime goes,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: I never really, you know, I would watch them because
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: they were in the zeitgeist or listen to them. Serial
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: I listened to because I knew the case was unsolved
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: because he was still in jail. And because I had
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: been pitching Hollywood shows to do unsolved cases for so
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: long and they never would do it. That's a, that's
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: one of the good things that has changed. They would never,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: ever do unsolved cases. And, uh, unless it was John Bidet,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: you know? Um, and the fact that they, so I
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: was watching serial or listening to serial and then I
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: was like, all right, well, how are they going to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: handle this? Cause people are going to be pissed off
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: when there's no ending and people were okay with it.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: And that opened the door to, you know, cause I
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: used to pitch ID all the time. I got so
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: close with a show on ID. And, you know, they
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: they had we had done a pilot and then they said, yeah,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: you know, we we had a crisis of faith and
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: we don't want to have a anything that's open ended.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: And I was like, you have 24 hours of programming
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: that's that's about murders that have been solved. Why not
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: just give back an hour to try to have people
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: try and solve things? And that used to piss me
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: off so bad. And, uh, Oxygen was actually the one
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: that started doing more of the unsolved stuff, which is
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: good on them. But yeah, no, I don't really, I
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: don't listen to, um, um, that many, um, uh, podcasts
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: or anything like that. Um, you know, there's certain people
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: that I know that do, uh, really good work. Payne Lindsay,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: I think does good work. Any, any podcast that's actually
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: going to go interview people I'll, I'll listen to, or
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: if it's really, really good writing, there's a podcast called Disgraceland,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: which I think is a really good writing, but There's
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of them that are just– if it's a
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: podcast that has actually done the investigative work, I'll check
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: it out.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: But most of the time, it's a lot of– A
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: lot of them are regurgitating the news that's already out there.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Which is more power to them, which is not my thing.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There is still an unsolved crime that happened at
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: my boarding school in Running Springs, California. So I went
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: to one of those therapeutic boarding schools. The guy's name
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: was Daniel Ewan, I think is how you pronounce his
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: last name. And my school is called SEDU. It's been
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: closed down for abuse since, but he... was trying to
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: tell his parents that he hated it and wanted to leave.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: He ended up running away. It's interesting because I've run
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: away from that same school twice. It's very dangerous to
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: get down the mountain. You have to hitchhike. You're up
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: in the San Bernardino Mountains all the way in Running Springs,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: which is near Big Bear. And apparently the way he
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: chose to run away, I hitchhiked. But the way he
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: ran away is he went down the face of the mountain,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: which is so dangerous, never to be found again. And
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: throughout the course of decades, years, whatever has there has
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: been sightings of him. And there was also a serial killer,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: I guess, rapist, child pornographer, you know, child molester, who
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: was associated with the school who used to work there,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: who was arrested and then died in prison. So a
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: lot of unsolved you know, a lot of answers that
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: are still out there. So that's where my love of
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: true crime started though, when I was younger and hearing
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: about these things. And, you know, I ended up getting
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: my master's in forensic investigation just because I was so
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: obsessed with crime and it just took some time later
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: in life. I was like, this interests me and I
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: want to do it. Can we expect any new books
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: from you in the future?
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: I'm looking around at, you know, I'm doing some consulting
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: work now that's true crime adjacent. It's more national security
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: type stuff. And looking at terrorism right now and the
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: way that the world is, you know, terrorism, obviously, one
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: of the biggest true crimes in history is 9-11. And
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: If you would ask people on the street, how many
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: terrorism acts have there been since 9-11? People would say, oh, none.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: There's been so many because it's been a lot of actors,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: lone wolf actors, that kind of thing. But then you've
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: got mass shooters is probably the biggest. Other than the
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: opioid epidemic, mass shooters is still gigantic. But with terrorism,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: after 9-11, the government gave a blank check and said,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: We never want this to happen again. Do what you
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: can do. Obviously, you had the Patriarch, you had all
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: this stuff. That blank check is over. But the next
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: generation of terrorists is happening now. And America now is looking,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: is embroiled in three big conflicts. We've got Russia and Ukraine.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: We've got, obviously, Israel and Hamas. And we've got, you know,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: China is going to happen at some point. and terrorism
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: in the background but isis is regrouped now and it's
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: it's starting all over again you know and they had
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: the attack in moscow that killed over 130 people so
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: that's one of the things that i'm looking at in
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: terms of um that that is just something a little
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: different and um you're seeing now the radicalization of people
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: being used you know on the internet and uh whether
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: these people are not actually you know the shooter from
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: um There's another guy from my school, geez. The shooter
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: at Pulse nightclub actually went to my high school. And
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: I actually was there. I was at Disney. I'd taken
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: my family and my daughter for her 18th, for graduation,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: wanted to go to Disney World. And we were there.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: And then the shooting happened at Pulse. And I had
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: been still working at Crime Watch Daily. And I called them.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: I was like, I'm down here. Do you need me?
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: And they said, yeah, go down there. So didn't go
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: to Disney that day. Went to... went and covered that.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: And then, which was just devastating. And turns out that,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: you know, that guy was radicalized online. And then, um,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: then a day later and damn alligator ate a kid.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: And I remember that.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That was all in the same week.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: And the, the woman, I did not know that was
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: in the same week, but the woman, there was a.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Woman that was a singer from American idol who was
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: shot by a deranged fan, uh, who then killed himself.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: That was all in the same week in Orlando. Yeah. Yeah. So, So, um,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know what got us on that, but yeah.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: Well, about if you're going to, that's what.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: I'm working on. Yeah. So, um, something, something along those lines, again, though, terrorism,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: not sexy, it's not some, but it is, it's going
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: to be a big, um, a lot bigger. Um, you know,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: unfortunately it takes something like nine 11 to get people
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: to pay attention to it again, but it's gonna, it's,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: it's not good. And, uh, you know, I originally was
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be an FBI agent when I went
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: to school. I was studying cults for grad school, new
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: religious movements, we called them, and Christian apocalyptic cults. And
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: that was right around while I was doing that, Oklahoma
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: City happened. And Oklahoma City actually kind of killed the
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: Christian apocalyptic white cult type thing. Nobody wanted to be
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: involved with that. These guys were very much– they're not
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: as committed, those– cult member type things and, and Christian
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: cult type thing. They're not there. Bottom line, they're not
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: as committed as, as ISIS. They're not as committed as, uh,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: as the radical Muslim cults. So, uh, when that happened
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: and they saw those babies dead, they're like, we don't
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: want any problem, any, any, we don't want that at all. So, um, but, um,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: you're starting to see it again in a different way,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: obviously with, with some of the stuff that has happened, um,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: you know, in the last five years, but yeah, it's a,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: it's a, it's a crazy time. There's a lot more,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: That's out there. You know, there's a lot of people
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: doing true crime right now. And it's I just want
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: to do something that's a little bit more. So I'm
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: working on a couple of things right now that are
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: a little bit more preventative, more than solving it in
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: the in the future. Right.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Well, having you on, it's a reminder that, you know,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: so many people love true crime, obviously, but there are
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: so many crimes that do not get reported every year.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: There are so many things that are not on. Nancy
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Grace is not on anymore, but, you know, that are
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: not highlighted. in the pop culture world. And people have
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: to remember that there are other stories and other people
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: to remember and to keep looking for. People can get
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: your book, Killers Amidst Killers. It's very good. Everyone should
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: read it. Another book that I loved of yours is
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: Chasing Darkness with me. Great book. Tell people where they
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: can get the books and where they can look you up.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: You know, it's always good to go to a local bookstore.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: Bookstores are like one of my favorite places. So go
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: to a local bookstore, ask for it. If not, you can,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: you know, if you don't have a local bookstore, even
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: Barnes & Noble too. I was at Barnes & Noble yesterday.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: I love Barnes & Noble. Anything where I can go
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: to a place and look around at books. But if
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: you have to, obviously, it's on Amazon. It actually did.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: For some reason, there was a moment of pride. Three
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: weeks ago, for some reason, it spiked. There's an audio book, too.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: And I read the audio book. And it was the
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: sixth best-selling audio book in America. It was beating Harry Potter.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: So I can say I beat Harry Potter in one day.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: One day, I was ahead of Harry Potter.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: Amazing.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: And tell people where they can find you, your Instagram.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Billy Jensen on, on everything. I'm not really, you know,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: nobody's on Twitter anymore, but threads and I'm on sober
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: threads a lot. So, and, but yeah, Instagram is really
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: probably the best place.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: Awesome.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you. We're going to have you on again
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: in a couple months to recap everything and see what
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: is new in your world. But thank you so much
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: for coming on again. Congratulations with your sobriety and everything
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: that's going on with you. I wish you the best
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: of luck. We'll see you soon.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Rachel.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: Dunaidial.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: Lift?
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 5: Please.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: Are you going past Kimmage?
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 4: Dundale Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.