Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "Is Wokeness Made Up?" with Ana Marie Cox

Transcript

"Is Wokeness Made Up?" with Ana Marie Cox · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  G'day humans, welcome to the show that goes where other shows dare not tread.
• 0:08
  The show that rejects partisanship and tribalism, I'm Josh Zeps, your humble interrogator,
• 0:14
  your humble interlocutor and each week.
• 0:17
  I hunt down the world's most interesting people to wrestle with questions that normally
• 0:21
  get everyone in a huff, because so much of modern culture and politics and media, especially
• 0:28
  social media, panders to what you already believe and distorts what you don't already believe.
• 0:34
  It reinforces what you're comfortable thinking about.
• 0:38
  This is not the show for that.
• 0:41
  We know that change doesn't happen inside echo chambers, so step out of the comfort zone,
• 0:46
  flex your mind, tread on some landmines and have some uncomfortable conversations.
• 0:58
  Today on the show, a fabulous fiery gal, Anna Marie Cox, American author, blogger, political
• 1:09
  op columnist, critic.
• 1:12
  She founded the groundbreaking political blog, Wonkett, which was a kind of cheeky, smart
• 1:17
  arse feminist, very inside the beltway, story breaking, muck-raking political blog that
• 1:24
  shocked to, I suppose, national prominence with a few scandals that it was able to break
• 1:31
  in the early 2010s.
• 1:33
  She became a fixture of Washington, DC, very much a bad girl insider.
• 1:39
  She became the senior political correspondent for MTV News.
• 1:42
  She had a column in the New York Times magazine where she did interviews, an interview piece.
• 1:48
  She was the Washington correspondent for GQ Magazine, a contributor for the Daily Beast.
• 1:53
  I mean, all of the, you know, very, very, very establishment American political mere institutions.
• 2:00
  She was a lead blogger on US politics for the Guardian and an editor at Mother Jones.
• 2:07
  And then she kind of pretty much turned her back on it all and thought it was all a bit
• 2:12
  of a joke.
• 2:14
  She got sober, started thinking about what really matters, had been an early adopter of Twitter,
• 2:20
  so still had this army of Twitter followers.
• 2:22
  She got onto the Twitter bandwagon with her kind of feisty political diatribe just when
• 2:27
  Twitter was taking off, a massed over a million followers, which she still has to this day.
• 2:33
  But now she's a political columnist and culture critic who writes a column about sobriety
• 2:42
  and about recovery at the cut, it's called sober questioning.
• 2:47
  She hosts a science fiction podcast called Space the Nation and she's uninterested in
• 2:54
  the day-to-day, argy bargy of political commentary.
• 2:59
  I wanted to find out why.
• 3:02
  This episode starts a little bit slowly as we try to figure out who she is and who I am
• 3:07
  and we sort of sniff each other's bum's like dogs in the park who haven't met each other
• 3:11
  before.
• 3:13
  Stay with it, it becomes interesting, it becomes a bit fiery when she and I start to disagree
• 3:21
  about the culture wars and wokeness.
• 3:25
  I appreciate her stepping up for having a conversation that was uncomfortable on both
• 3:29
  sides and that I think led to some sort of resolution as all good, uncomfortable conversations
• 3:34
  should.
• 3:35
  Please enjoy the one and only and a Mori Cox.
• 3:43
  This is actually great because I was about to just start cooking dinner and be done
• 3:53
  for the day.
• 3:54
  Now, there's just one more thing.
• 3:56
  Am I really done for the day?
• 3:58
  One more thing you have to do.
• 4:00
  And in fact, I wasn't quite done for the day, now I will feel good.
• 4:04
  Now you'll feel great, now you'll be like I've got one extra thing done.
• 4:07
  Yeah, well, yeah, so then you can just order Uber Eats.
• 4:13
  No, I'm going to actually cook dinner.
• 4:16
  Hang on, let me just text my mom.
• 4:20
  Don't think we have sheets, but we can pick them up after work.
• 4:27
  I am currently in the process of living out of suitcases and a hotel room and friends,
• 4:34
  my friends place because I have some workmen ripping the stairs out of my house.
• 4:42
  Which is delightful.
• 4:44
  Anyone who's ever been through a renovation can share the delights and wonders of that
• 4:51
  experience.
• 4:52
  First of all, problems, but still my first marriage survived a renovation, but then fell
• 4:57
  apart from other reasons, right, are we sure it was other reasons?
• 5:02
  Maybe it was a delayed reaction to the renovation, but you've actually just made me remember
• 5:06
  it.
• 5:07
  God, I hated it.
• 5:08
  It was like washing dishes in the bathroom sink.
• 5:11
  It was like the part that really actually bummed me out the most, I think.
• 5:14
  Yeah, you tried to stay.
• 5:16
  Yeah.
• 5:17
  Yeah.
• 5:18
  Yeah, our builder was just like, I mean, you can stay and get a divorce or you can see how
• 5:24
  you go.
• 5:25
  So I was like, well, we'll leave.
• 5:27
  You know, we might still get a divorce anyway because having a couple of toddlers in a
• 5:33
  hotel room, living out of suitcases, pretty ready to just go and find a little tropical
• 5:38
  island to sip my ties on chill out.
• 5:41
  That'll come later.
• 5:42
  That'll come later.
• 5:43
  How are you doing?
• 5:45
  That's all right.
• 5:46
  You know, in COVID-adjusted terms, like pretty good, also just engraating on the curve
• 5:55
  of my life.
• 5:56
  Good.
• 5:57
  Can you turn yourself up a bit?
• 5:59
  I'll talk a bit closer to the bike.
• 6:01
  I can try.
• 6:02
  There you go.
• 6:04
  I think.
• 6:08
  Is that helpful?
• 6:09
  Yeah.
• 6:10
  Tell me what you had for breakfast.
• 6:13
  I really had breakfast, but I was just eating some leftover curry chicken, tortilla curry,
• 6:24
  turkey.
• 6:25
  Yes.
• 6:26
  Turn yourself up a little more.
• 6:28
  You're still a little long.
• 6:30
  So, well, I'm not sure this mic is a little like not.
• 6:34
  Yeah, then it goes buzzy when you turn it up too much.
• 6:36
  Yeah.
• 6:37
  That's it.
• 6:38
  I can do with that.
• 6:39
  Is that okay?
• 6:40
  Yes.
• 6:41
  I can live with that.
• 6:42
  What culture does turkey curry?
• 6:43
  Or is that some obnoxious American mashup?
• 6:46
  I think it's a mashup of trying to make curry better for you.
• 6:49
  Right.
• 6:50
  Is that cultural appropriation?
• 6:51
  Is that what that is?
• 6:52
  Probably.
• 6:53
  Probably.
• 6:54
  The curry of another culture and mashing it up with America's fixation on the driest
• 6:59
  and least appetizing of poultry meats.
• 7:02
  Yeah.
• 7:03
  I actually have that because I tried a subscription, you know, like a meal box thing.
• 7:09
  Oh, yeah.
• 7:10
  Yeah.
• 7:11
  And I decided actually that I was not the last meal I got.
• 7:15
  Right.
• 7:16
  Right.
• 7:17
  What turned you off?
• 7:18
  I got those for a while.
• 7:19
  I liked them.
• 7:20
  I'm not reliable enough about cooking dinner for myself.
• 7:25
  Right.
• 7:27
  I don't order in.
• 7:29
  I have just a thing about I don't.
• 7:31
  It's the good, you know, Midwestern or in mean or something, but it feels really extravagant
• 7:38
  to order in for one person.
• 7:41
  Yeah.
• 7:42
  That's the joy of it.
• 7:43
  That's why.
• 7:44
  Yeah.
• 7:45
  I do it every once in a while.
• 7:46
  And it's a very special occasion.
• 7:47
  Wow.
• 7:48
  You put the candles out in the tablecloth.
• 7:50
  Well.
• 7:51
  Who?
• 7:52
  Who?
• 7:53
  I get something I really like that I came, you know, that I actually the Korean place
• 7:58
  that I've been ordering from.
• 7:59
  Oh, yeah.
• 8:00
  It's my special occasion.
• 8:02
  But, you know, mostly I actually live off Trader Joe's and salads.
• 8:06
  That's my.
• 8:07
  That's my go to.
• 8:09
  I would have thought that Korean home delivery is especially tricky because they have 17 different
• 8:14
  little appetizer kimchi dishes and like fermented beans and things that they have to put
• 8:19
  into tiny little plastic containers.
• 8:21
  So it's environmental vandalism.
• 8:23
  Kind of a healthy Korean place that's more cultural appropriation.
• 8:29
  Yeah.
• 8:30
  Well, it is owned by Korean people, but yeah.
• 8:32
  Okay.
• 8:33
  Anyway, let's get started.
• 8:34
  What do you want?
• 8:35
  Yeah.
• 8:36
  I don't.
• 8:37
  I would.
• 8:38
  Yeah.
• 8:39
  I got a dinner at some point.
• 8:40
  You do have to cook dinner at some point.
• 8:41
  I mean, I got a whole day so I can just sit here and waffle.
• 8:43
  Yeah.
• 8:44
  I got nothing to do.
• 8:45
  Why don't we start by talking about something that by the time people hear this, they're
• 8:50
  probably going to be sick of hearing people talking about, which is the shooting.
• 8:57
  Yeah.
• 9:01
  So do you think we're crazy Americans?
• 9:06
  Like that we have?
• 9:07
  No.
• 9:08
  No.
• 9:09
  Well, I mean, I think that loose gun laws are crazy totally, but I don't think that Americans
• 9:13
  are crazy for finding themselves in a situation where they have them.
• 9:18
  I think they've.
• 9:19
  The gun laws themselves.
• 9:20
  Yes.
• 9:21
  That would be the way to put it.
• 9:22
  Yeah.
• 9:23
  The gun laws themselves are absolutely insane.
• 9:24
  And actually, we should maybe use a word in saying, because I have this pet peeve about
• 9:29
  people blaming mental illness.
• 9:30
  Yeah.
• 9:31
  Sure.
• 9:32
  So, yeah.
• 9:33
  Yeah.
• 9:34
  Maybe you shouldn't call them.
• 9:35
  They're stupid.
• 9:36
  They're very stupid.
• 9:37
  Well, I'm not even sure they're stupid.
• 9:38
  They depend on what your outcome, what you want to be out there.
• 9:40
  Right.
• 9:41
  Right.
• 9:42
  They're murderous.
• 9:43
  They're murderous.
• 9:45
  They reliably lead to lots of children getting killed and lots of people getting killed,
• 9:51
  you know, and unacceptably large proportion of whom include children.
• 9:57
  Yeah.
• 9:58
  So, if you, if that is the price that you want to pay for living in a society or wash
• 10:02
  with guns, like it was really important to you to live in a society or wash with guns,
• 10:05
  then God's big.
• 10:06
  Yes.
• 10:07
  That's, that's great.
• 10:08
  So, I mean, I'm usually unpopular in expressing this opinion, but like I mean, I said
• 10:12
  it on the air yesterday in Australia where everyone was like emoting and, you know,
• 10:17
  how hard to rip with the Americans and it's so, you know, a perplexing and tragic.
• 10:21
  I was like, it's not perplexing and it's not tragic.
• 10:24
  It's the natural consequence of a series of decisions that Americans have made.
• 10:27
  And that's fine.
• 10:28
  If that's like if, I mean, you know, I'm sorry, I mean, that's the thing is that a majority
• 10:34
  of Americans don't like this and are willing to make changes.
• 10:39
  I'm not sure.
• 10:40
  I mean, I'm not sure.
• 10:41
  I am.
• 10:42
  I am.
• 10:43
  A majority of Americans would like to see an assault weapon ban, but a majority of Americans
• 10:48
  would still like to see the right to have firearms in the hunt.
• 10:53
  Well, we're probably never going to go.
• 10:55
  There's a certain point which Americans might not ever go, right?
• 10:59
  Yeah.
• 11:00
  But we can have plenty of stuff that I think Americans do agree on, you know, waiting
• 11:07
  periods would make a huge difference because.
• 11:10
  Many periods wouldn't necessarily stop mass shootings, but the gun deaths in America,
• 11:17
  they're about 54% of them are suicides.
• 11:22
  Yeah.
• 11:23
  And about 43% are murder.
• 11:26
  And those suicides, waiting periods, would help.
• 11:29
  Definitely.
• 11:30
  Definitely.
• 11:31
  That was actually.
• 11:32
  And waiting periods are not controversial.
• 11:33
  Right.
• 11:34
  Yeah.
• 11:35
  And background checks as well.
• 11:36
  Yeah.
• 11:37
  Just requiring everyone.
• 11:38
  Yeah.
• 11:39
  That was the big change in Australia when Australia brought in its strict gun laws was
• 11:43
  on suicides, not so much on the homicides, but yeah, suicides, I think, halved.
• 11:47
  We don't talk about it enough here, like I think it's, you know, everyone gets upset when
• 11:55
  something like of all day happens, no matter how many times it happens, unfortunately.
• 11:59
  Yeah.
• 12:00
  But, you know, people die every day from gun suicides that don't have to die.
• 12:07
  Yeah.
• 12:08
  And ordinary unglamorous gun homicides that aren't the mass shootings, of course, massively
• 12:11
  outnumber the mass shootings.
• 12:12
  The mass shootings are just more glamorous.
• 12:14
  I mean, I'm all for mobilizing people out of something that's a horrific tragedy, but
• 12:19
  also every single person that dies from a gun is a tragedy and a lot of them are preventable.
• 12:26
  A lot of them.
• 12:28
  Yeah.
• 12:29
  And then I saw someone on Twitter saying that the only difference is that Americans use guns,
• 12:33
  but other countries kill each other with other things and they had this spread sheet of
• 12:39
  American, American mass, if you compare American mass shootings to Australian mass shootings,
• 12:44
  America looks bad, but they said if you compare American mass debt, mass killings to Australian
• 12:49
  mass killings, they're not a per capita basis.
• 12:52
  Australia is actually just as bad as the cause of this ridiculous spreadsheet.
• 12:56
  And I mean, like what even is a mass killing without a gun?
• 13:01
  It was like, it was claims that like 86 people had been massacred in Australia without
• 13:05
  a gun.
• 13:06
  I'm like, what is this event?
• 13:07
  Because I want to see this.
• 13:08
  I want to see the news paper article in which a person grab a spoon is about the only
• 13:12
  thing I can think of, right?
• 13:13
  Like, I mean, well, there might be a stabbing, there might be, you maybe you could be like,
• 13:17
  you can't stab people that fast.
• 13:18
  No, no, you can't.
• 13:20
  And you certainly can't do it from like from the window of a high rise hotel, growing
• 13:25
  the lives down on people in a parking lot below.
• 13:29
  Yeah.
• 13:30
  And there's also not a not a knife fights in video games either.
• 13:33
  Not that I blame video games, but just I do think there is a certain amount of desensitization
• 13:38
  that happens.
• 13:41
  It's a combination of the desensitization and the availability, though, like if the availability
• 13:46
  wasn't there, then the video games would, they're not a problem, they're not at all
• 13:50
  against video games.
• 13:51
  No, no.
• 13:52
  Yeah.
• 13:53
  I mean, there's also there's also a contagion, isn't there?
• 13:57
  I mean, I think there's a slow, a slow motion.
• 13:59
  I can't remember who the like the cultural theorist was who was saying like that you can you
• 14:04
  get you get basically the what's that the same dynamic as happens in a mob stampede can
• 14:09
  happen in slow motion in a culture where like a stampede happens because someone sees
• 14:15
  that someone else is running and therefore they run and they think the best thing to do
• 14:19
  is run.
• 14:20
  I'm mangling the analogy, but it has something to do with that and like you can see that
• 14:23
  then fashion trends, you can see that in the ways that like faith in institutions breaks
• 14:29
  down and you can see that in things like mass shootings where you get the snowball kind
• 14:34
  of going and then there's enough of a critical mass that that becomes the thing that occurs
• 14:39
  in the mind of the person who has a certain set of conditions that are ripe for it, that
• 14:44
  it wouldn't actually pop into their head, had it not been for the case that there was this
• 14:47
  was already now a meme.
• 14:49
  And that's the issue with the racially motivated mass shootings as well that it occurs to people
• 14:57
  like it becomes the thing like well I am of hate filled person, what am I going to do?
• 15:02
  You know, this is what I'll do, it's been patterned for me, right?
• 15:06
  Right.
• 15:07
  Well, they probably don't think I'm a hate filled person, do they?
• 15:09
  They probably think I'm a you're right, they think I want to lead the white race to whatever,
• 15:14
  you know.
• 15:15
  I'm, you know, we've been under attack for too long by all these, you know, filthy races
• 15:19
  and I have to stand up and defend.
• 15:21
  And this is what you do.
• 15:22
  Like this is the next step.
• 15:23
  If you want to get to that point, you're like, okay, what do I do next?
• 15:26
  This is the next thing I do.
• 15:28
  And then I do think that's a problem in with American mass shootings as well.
• 15:31
  Like there are troubled young people everywhere, everywhere, you know, it's in our country
• 15:38
  that this becomes part of the, you know, I don't want to call it a permission structure,
• 15:46
  obviously, but it's in the landscape, it's part of the landscape of what it means to
• 15:53
  be troubled.
• 15:54
  Yeah.
• 15:55
  Yeah.
• 15:56
  And I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but other countries just don't have that.
• 16:02
  Yeah.
• 16:03
  I mean, I guess people just like stay in the basement and like, maybe they might do other
• 16:07
  violent things.
• 16:08
  Sure.
• 16:09
  Right?
• 16:10
  I guess.
• 16:11
  But the point about gun violence, as I was going to say, it's about suicides too, is that
• 16:16
  guns are just so fucking effective.
• 16:18
  Yeah.
• 16:19
  Yeah.
• 16:20
  Yeah.
• 16:21
  I hate, so I'm a suicide attempt survivor and I bring that up with a little bit of extra,
• 16:26
  I do have some expertise on this.
• 16:28
  Yeah.
• 16:29
  Which is that most suicide attempts or suicide ideations are fairly fleeting.
• 16:35
  It's impulsive.
• 16:36
  It's something people do in the moment.
• 16:39
  And the cliche you hear is probably accurate, you know, suicide is a permanent solution
• 16:43
  to a temporary problem.
• 16:45
  Yeah.
• 16:46
  And in fact, most people who commit suicide, especially guns who are not mentally ill,
• 16:52
  they are situationally depressed.
• 16:56
  Yeah.
• 16:57
  And which is, you know, a form of depression is a form of mental illness, but they're
• 17:00
  not necessarily someone who has like a chronic diagnosis.
• 17:04
  Yeah.
• 17:05
  And this is most common, like with men who do this, that they're just a job, lost a marriage,
• 17:11
  whatever.
• 17:13
  And they may be intent on committing suicide, but because they have a gun, that's a 90%
• 17:17
  effective.
• 17:19
  Whereas if they had had to take pills or try to suffocate whatever, like I don't want
• 17:24
  to go through the list.
• 17:25
  Yeah.
• 17:26
  Yeah.
• 17:27
  We all know.
• 17:28
  Yeah.
• 17:29
  But it's in that's true with like, oh, they're going to find another way to commit violence
• 17:32
  too.
• 17:33
  Sure.
• 17:34
  That's the same about the nights.
• 17:35
  Like it's just guns are, they're built to do mainly one thing.
• 17:39
  Yeah.
• 17:40
  Knives, not even knives have more than one use.
• 17:44
  That's right.
• 17:45
  That's right.
• 17:46
  And they're not very good at the, at the person killing, yeah, walking of their, of their
• 17:50
  utility.
• 17:51
  Right.
• 17:52
  Why, why did you try to kill yourself?
• 17:54
  Um, I mean, I was still an active alcoholic and a suicide to, like there's, I almost don't
• 18:02
  believe the statistic, but he brings to him like something like 30% of people in active
• 18:08
  addiction will attempt suicide at some point in their lives.
• 18:13
  And it's a hopeless condition.
• 18:17
  That's, to me, a good definition of addiction, it's hopelessness.
• 18:21
  And, you know, I thought my life would never change.
• 18:23
  I thought I was always going to feel the way that I felt and, and did you identify alcohol
• 18:29
  as being the cause of the failing or the solution to it?
• 18:32
  Oh, it both.
• 18:34
  Like Homer Simpson says.
• 18:36
  You alcohol, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
• 18:42
  Yeah.
• 18:43
  Um, yeah, I mean, it helped me deal with the pain, but I also recognize that it was the
• 18:50
  cause of my problems.
• 18:54
  And I also at that point thought I couldn't stop.
• 18:58
  I tried to stop drinking and couldn't.
• 19:02
  And I thought I was doomed, you know, um, and I thought, at the time I incorrectly thought
• 19:11
  I'd been abandoned, it just wasn't the case, you know, for real, but I felt that way.
• 19:20
  And I just didn't want to be in pain anymore.
• 19:25
  And I, I, I always compare it like I hate it when people say, oh, I thought about suicide,
• 19:30
  I wasn't brave enough.
• 19:31
  It's not about bravery.
• 19:32
  It's about desperation.
• 19:33
  Um, and I think the best comparison is an animal with its like cut in a trap, you know,
• 19:40
  like it's not brave to chew your leg off, you know, like it's just what you have to
• 19:46
  do.
• 19:47
  Right.
• 19:48
  Yes.
• 19:49
  That's what I think for other people, I've talked to you feel the same way.
• 19:53
  There is nothing about like I got it just bugs this shit out of me when people say I
• 19:57
  wasn't brave enough to try.
• 19:58
  It's not about that.
• 20:00
  It's, you weren't quite desperate enough.
• 20:04
  You, you didn't feel quite hopeless enough.
• 20:07
  Right.
• 20:08
  But that's interesting.
• 20:12
  Yeah.
• 20:13
  Yeah.
• 20:14
  I mean, yeah.
• 20:15
  Okay.
• 20:16
  I mean, I mean, I mean, in the sense that that psychiatrists do say that there is a,
• 20:23
  there is a point that's so low that the person is so hopeless that they are not a suicide
• 20:28
  risk.
• 20:29
  And then as people start to get better, there's actually an increased risk of suicide because
• 20:35
  they realize that they're actually capable of something like, uh, anyway, and that part
• 20:40
  of it.
• 20:41
  Actually, there's a lot of us who decide that's not understood that it's, I'm sure.
• 20:46
  Yeah.
• 20:47
  I mean, obviously, Katari, you're going to do a study, you know, um, well, I mean,
• 20:52
  it's a psychiatrist.
• 20:53
  Yeah.
• 20:54
  I can look at the people who they managed to successfully get out of the hole and the ones
• 20:57
  who they didn't, I suppose, see if they're any, any lessons.
• 21:01
  But let's talk about politics and let's put her in social media because why did you,
• 21:07
  why did you get into political, uh, reporting and political commentary?
• 21:10
  And why did you sort of get out of it?
• 21:13
  Well, I am a failed, um, academic.
• 21:18
  Uh, I thought my whole, you know, childhood and all through college, I thought I was going
• 21:24
  to be a professor.
• 21:26
  Um, that's my dad is a math professor and I, I didn't want to do math, but, uh, I love
• 21:32
  school.
• 21:33
  I love the life that I saw my dad leading, you know, like getting to be smart all the time.
• 21:40
  And his work schedule, I didn't, I knew I never wanted to work in an office.
• 21:43
  I remember having that be like a very strong opinion of mine as a, you know, young punk rocker.
• 21:51
  Uh, there's that scene and say anything where it junkies like, I don't want to sell anything
• 21:55
  or buy anything or make any, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a good scene.
• 22:01
  So Lloyd, you graduated liquid, right?
• 22:03
  Yes, sir.
• 22:04
  What are you going to do now?
• 22:05
  You know, Lloyd, what are your plans for the future?
• 22:10
  Spend as much time possible with them before, uh, she leaves?
• 22:15
  Seriously, Lloyd.
• 22:16
  I'm totally in completely serious.
• 22:18
  No, really.
• 22:20
  You mean, like, career, um, I don't know if, uh, I thought about this quite a bit, sir,
• 22:32
  and I would have to say considering what's waiting out there for me.
• 22:36
  I don't want to sell anything, buy anything or process anything as a career.
• 22:40
  I don't want to sell anything, bought or processed or buy anything sold or processed or
• 22:45
  process anything sold, bought or processed or repair anything sold, bought or processed,
• 22:50
  you know, as a career, I don't want to do that.
• 22:52
  So, uh, my father's in the army, he wants me to join, but I can't work for that corporation.
• 22:59
  So what I've been doing, like, is kickboxing, um, and then I got to graduate school and
• 23:05
  it was the mid 90s glut of academics in the US, um, job market.
• 23:14
  And it was also a time when universities were beginning to lean, it was becoming clear
• 23:18
  how hard they were leaning on adjuncts and graduate students to supply to be teachers, right?
• 23:24
  And to display mostly uncompensated or poorly compensated labor.
• 23:30
  And, uh, I saw a future in which I would have to work really, really hard to make very
• 23:38
  little money or possibly even go into debt in order to be on a job market where my chances
• 23:45
  were very bad, you know, and even if the best job I could get as like, you know, newly minted
• 23:53
  PhD was probably not going to be for very much, right?
• 23:56
  Or I could go into journalism where I still wouldn't make a lot of money, but I wouldn't
• 24:03
  have to get a PhD.
• 24:09
  So I started writing about politics, but again, always kind of inflected with popular culture,
• 24:15
  um, sort of it went reverse from where I started.
• 24:20
  And then, uh, I had a personal blog that this guy named Nick Denton saw and liked it.
• 24:29
  And so he hired me to do Wankette.
• 24:32
  And I did Wankette for a few years.
• 24:34
  And that sort of solidly put me in the politics category and that became a pretty big political
• 24:40
  blog.
• 24:41
  And you were the best editor of it.
• 24:43
  I was one of the people on the forefront of not of the, the daylies to showization of
• 24:50
  political coverage.
• 24:51
  Right.
• 24:52
  Right.
• 24:53
  And yeah, I mean, I'm interested in what the, in the bigger thing that you were trying
• 24:56
  to do, if anything, because I mean, you're, you're being sort of modest in saying like,
• 24:59
  well, I was just bouncing around and trying to find a place where I wouldn't starve.
• 25:03
  So I mean, just fast forward through all of your, um, political writing accomplishments,
• 25:07
  uh, MTV.
• 25:08
  Sure.
• 25:09
  And then, but did you, I mean, am I right that you sort of lost the faith?
• 25:18
  I, I found my faith and I lost my faith.
• 25:21
  Um, so I wound up so I mentioned I, I attempted to decide him and I actually was on assignment
• 25:31
  for a magazine.
• 25:32
  I won't get into detail, um, when I did it and wound up, some people noticed I disappeared
• 25:42
  rather abruptly from Washington, you know, like my Twitter went silent and I was in rehab.
• 25:51
  And they don't let you have, or this rehab, some rehab that you have your phone.
• 25:55
  I couldn't have my phone, you know, or email, which effectively cut me off, you know,
• 26:01
  from, from DC.
• 26:03
  Yeah.
• 26:04
  Uh, and I had this, I've written about this moment.
• 26:07
  I had this very life changing moment where it, so the place I went, you know, rehab is
• 26:16
  normally, I'm probably not straight to like 28 days, 30, 30 days.
• 26:21
  And it became clear that I was a pretty hard case, um, and they suggested I stayed for
• 26:29
  another three months and my first reaction was, but I'll miss the White House correspond
• 26:36
  instant.
• 26:37
  Priorities and I heard that come out of my mouth and I realized I was, I will use the word
• 26:45
  crazy.
• 26:46
  Right.
• 26:47
  Right.
• 26:48
  Yeah.
• 26:49
  Yeah.
• 26:50
  I saved my life and not go to the White House correspondents dinner or plunge back into
• 26:57
  the pit of darkness and despair, which I came and go to the White House correspond.
• 27:01
  Yeah.
• 27:02
  I'll take option B thing and that's sort of how the recovery kind of worked for me.
• 27:07
  A lot of the time was it just, I would hear myself talk, you know, um, and be like, and
• 27:14
  also death was a really, really, really, really, sorry, um, because I had such a, you know,
• 27:20
  what they call a low bottom with a suicide attempt.
• 27:22
  And also my mother had cirrhosis at the time, um, death was always a real, you know, behind
• 27:31
  door number three problem for me, and sometimes when I didn't like the kinds of things that
• 27:39
  they would suggest, I try to recover from my alcoholism, I would just remind myself,
• 27:45
  well, if it doesn't work, there's always death and drinking, right?
• 27:53
  Yeah.
• 27:54
  Yeah.
• 27:55
  Um, and also like I remember, uh, my mom came to visit me and rehab, she was also trying
• 28:02
  to get sober, um, but she told me, and she'd been to rehab and she said, she was sober
• 28:09
  actually at the time she visited, which might be the only time and either of our lives
• 28:13
  were both sober at the same time since I was an adult, but, um, she, we were sitting out
• 28:20
  on the porch and she said, do they, she said, how do you feel about the God stuff?
• 28:26
  And I was like, I don't know, I mean, I don't really have any strong feelings about it.
• 28:30
  She said, really?
• 28:31
  She said that you don't feel stupid, like getting on your knees to pray because that's
• 28:36
  the highly recommended method, but, and I was like, well, I did a bunch more stupid stuff
• 28:43
  than that one.
• 28:44
  I was drinking like, I mean, yeah, it's really hard for me to top the stupid shit I did
• 28:51
  drink.
• 28:52
  Yeah.
• 28:53
  Everything.
• 28:54
  Getting down on my knees alone at night.
• 28:55
  Yeah.
• 28:56
  And even in like the top 100, yeah, that's interesting.
• 29:01
  And I talked to my, my counselor also was real smart.
• 29:03
  You know, she knew I was a smarty pants and she said, you know, the prayer that we suggest,
• 29:09
  the reason prayer suggested it's not about having to believe in God.
• 29:14
  It's a good, it's a practice, it's a meditation practice.
• 29:20
  And it is a, you are bringing structure into your life.
• 29:24
  And also, I can't remember where I heard this.
• 29:25
  It wasn't my counselor, but it was really helpful for me to hear like the reason why we,
• 29:29
  there are lots of reasons to pray.
• 29:32
  But one reason, even if you don't believe in God to pray, is to hear yourself talk about
• 29:36
  what it is that you want.
• 29:38
  Right.
• 29:39
  Yeah.
• 29:40
  That's it.
• 29:41
  Because that can be very revealing.
• 29:42
  Yeah.
• 29:43
  Yeah.
• 29:44
  I wouldn't know.
• 29:45
  I wouldn't know.
• 29:46
  So I was like, I don't have a problem with it.
• 29:49
  I'll just go ahead and pray.
• 29:53
  You know, they say I should do it or I might die.
• 29:56
  All right, I'll pray even if I don't believe it.
• 29:58
  And then I eventually came to believe, but that's another story at first.
• 30:02
  So it has, it has the change in politics influence that you're uninterested in writing
• 30:07
  about politics or has the only this personal transformation.
• 30:11
  I was getting to the politics part.
• 30:13
  Um, so I got out of rehab and continued to write about politics and it had the,
• 30:20
  because you described MTV, York Times, a guardian.
• 30:26
  But then I actually will say that, yeah, there was a change when Trump was elected.
• 30:33
  I had a real, um, yeah, real crisis, um, also almost literally a faith.
• 30:43
  The idea that, you know, God would allow what seemed to be so transparently cruel, um,
• 30:54
  to happen really bothered me.
• 30:56
  And then the next thing that happened was it was, I'm so grateful.
• 31:01
  Um, I was lucky enough to, you know, work in some fairly diverse newsrooms.
• 31:07
  And if you tell a person of color, I can't believe God let Trump get elected.
• 31:14
  They've got some news for you.
• 31:16
  Yeah.
• 31:17
  God has allowed some other things.
• 31:25
  America hasn't been working, yeah, yeah, I think there hasn't been a racist in charge
• 31:31
  before.
• 31:32
  Yeah.
• 31:33
  Well, I mean, not just forget about the White House, like, I mean, oh, yeah.
• 31:37
  My grandparents were, my parents were Holocaust survivors.
• 31:40
  They probably had something to say about, yeah, God as well, you know, the, the, the place
• 31:44
  of privilege that comes, like when you say that, um, yeah, I don't think that's crazy.
• 31:49
  Why would the creator of the universe allow me to stop my toe?
• 31:52
  Yes.
• 31:53
  That is actually that's the way I kind of look at it.
• 31:55
  That's where I have fallen in the whole white as God let that things happen.
• 31:58
  It's because the universe is enormous and we don't understand, understand the scale.
• 32:02
  And also I could be wrong.
• 32:04
  I've always very clear.
• 32:05
  I, I hate to argue with atheists because I'm always like, yeah, you have a point.
• 32:09
  Yeah.
• 32:10
  I mean, just to choose not to, I just made a different choice as someone who doesn't, who
• 32:16
  doesn't believe in, in the gods of the book, the idea that the creator of, of the universe
• 32:22
  would take a personal interest in who wins the US election seems to me, like, so obviously
• 32:26
  ridiculous and parochial.
• 32:27
  Yeah.
• 32:28
  It was stupid.
• 32:29
  Funny.
• 32:30
  It was a pretty stupid way to think about it.
• 32:33
  And I also confess it was a kind of a place of, I was in a particularly weak place.
• 32:37
  It's not like I went around thinking that before it was, yeah, right, yeah.
• 32:41
  It was a big fucking deal, right?
• 32:43
  Yeah.
• 32:44
  And I feel like I'm, you know, I'm not the only, you know, white lady that's happened
• 32:52
  to thank God, but what happened for me after Trump was elected is that I realized I needed
• 32:57
  to shut up.
• 33:01
  A lesson that kind of started with that telling, I sang to someone like, I can't believe,
• 33:06
  you know, you'd think God, it was a friend, you pointed out, like, you know, it actually
• 33:12
  was funny.
• 33:13
  I remember, even before he was elected, if you may recall, Hillary's kind of closing
• 33:17
  argument was don't elect the racist.
• 33:20
  And I remember attacking to a black journalist at one of the debates who was like, oh, no,
• 33:24
  America might elect a racist.
• 33:29
  And he was predicting like, that's not going to work.
• 33:32
  You know, like, in fact, some people might think that's a feature and not a bug, right?
• 33:38
  So maybe, I don't know, I mean, I'm undecided, but I think there was a lot more that Hillary
• 33:44
  had not going for.
• 33:45
  Oh, I keep it for a closing argument, like, that was a shitty, well, it didn't, it was
• 33:50
  a shitty closing argument partly because it wasn't, it didn't tell anyone why she was
• 33:54
  a good candidate.
• 33:55
  And partly because it's just such a cheap shot that tries to dodge any of the substance
• 34:01
  of why I've what made Trump bad.
• 34:03
  You're also not motivating people of color with that for the reasons that my friend, you
• 34:09
  know, was saying.
• 34:10
  Yeah.
• 34:11
  Although I think your friend is also being disingenuous if they're like, I mean, you
• 34:14
  know, yeah, racist have been with us forever, but it's 20, it's 2016 now.
• 34:19
  So we're hoping that somewhat sarcastic.
• 34:23
  Yeah.
• 34:24
  Like, there are degrees of that and Trump was worse.
• 34:27
  Oh, I mean, that's not the argument.
• 34:29
  It's just like you, but it's true.
• 34:30
  I do think he's speaking from a place of knowledge to say that he didn't think that that
• 34:34
  was a very motivating argument.
• 34:35
  Yeah.
• 34:36
  Totally.
• 34:37
  No, that was his, that was his point was that she's not going to get the turnout she needs.
• 34:42
  Yeah.
• 34:43
  I mean, it's interesting that people have color voted for Trump more in the second election
• 34:48
  in it when he ran the second time that he did the first time, like significant increases
• 34:51
  especially among Latinos.
• 34:53
  Yeah, but mainly Latinos and there's complicated reasons for that.
• 34:57
  Let's go.
• 34:58
  Let's move on.
• 34:59
  So, um, so I get, I was just lucky enough to start having conversations with people who
• 35:04
  knew more about social justice than I did as a good white liberal and I just occurred
• 35:12
  to me that I had been living a life where I thought my politics were pretty excellent
• 35:18
  and that I was fighting on the right side and that's all I needed to do.
• 35:27
  And I think what the Trump election showed me upon reflection was that no, that's actually,
• 35:33
  it's not enough to just have the right opinions.
• 35:40
  I need to look at my own life and take responsibility for the privileges I've had and also take
• 35:53
  responsibility for my, my fellow white people who kind of fucked up sometimes.
• 36:01
  And that's sort of what happened with, with friends like these is the shows kind of
• 36:05
  started is like, oh my god, what's up with these Trump voters?
• 36:07
  And then it became, well, what's up with these white liberals?
• 36:10
  Yeah.
• 36:11
  Um, why do we think we're so smart and that, you know, and not just white liberals, but
• 36:19
  like I very, I'm very proud of the fact that we had a, a fair amount of disabled activists
• 36:24
  on, you know, queer and trans people, um, who were the people who were, we're shouting
• 36:32
  about Trump, you know, way before there was a Trump.
• 36:35
  Yeah.
• 36:36
  And we, you know, a lot of Democrats didn't listen.
• 36:43
  And I think for me what has happened is I write less about politics, but I think a lot
• 36:49
  more about the implications of my actions.
• 36:54
  And I know I've gotten a lot more serious about direct action.
• 37:01
  Um, I stopped going to protests for the most part after I became a journalist, not because
• 37:07
  I have like a real, like, I mean, a lot of places I worked wouldn't have liked it.
• 37:12
  But also like I was like, oh, I'm already doing my job.
• 37:14
  Yeah.
• 37:15
  I'm encouraging people to go to protests.
• 37:20
  And, um, you know, uh, in 2020, I actually knocked on doors for Elizabeth Warren.
• 37:26
  The first time I'd participated in an electoral politics in the, I don't know, like 16 years.
• 37:36
  Uh, you know, and I marched, um, when the Muslim ban happened and I marched, uh, when
• 37:46
  the immigration situation, well, it's still bad, um, but when we first found out about
• 37:51
  the children in cages, I guess.
• 37:54
  And I feel like, I don't know, I mean, I still write about politics and I don't want to
• 38:02
  give that up.
• 38:03
  And I still think it's important for people to express.
• 38:06
  I mean, I think I have, you know, talent and expressing things and can help people see
• 38:14
  things, um, in a way that will help them understand the world a little better.
• 38:25
  But also, you know, like, I mean, I don't know, like I don't take every speaking engagement.
• 38:33
  I'm offered anymore.
• 38:34
  I don't.
• 38:35
  I mean, I'm like, maybe you should have a trans person talk about that.
• 38:40
  Maybe you should have somebody, you know, like, I think before I wouldn't, I wouldn't
• 38:44
  I'd be like, well, I know the right opinion about this issue.
• 38:47
  So I see.
• 38:48
  I'll go ahead and do it.
• 38:50
  Yeah.
• 38:51
  Even though in theory, you could have asked me then who should talk about this and I'd
• 38:55
  be like, oh, well, the person who's had the experience, of course, except I'm smart
• 38:58
  and I have the right opinion.
• 39:01
  Yeah.
• 39:02
  It's okay if I do it.
• 39:04
  I mean, I share your frustration with smug liberals who like to talk about how clever
• 39:08
  they are.
• 39:09
  So wonder if the, I mean, what do you make of the of the critique that the problems with
• 39:15
  the that the left currently has in winning and connecting with heartland America have as
• 39:21
  much to do with a kind of obsession with identity and obsession with first person experience
• 39:27
  and obsession with kind of populating the the space where there's many tokenistic, you
• 39:32
  know, trans people as they possibly can and instead of getting back to hip pocket traditional
• 39:39
  labor oriented and between perspectives that you don't, yeah, I feel like you shouldn't
• 39:45
  have to make a choice.
• 39:48
  You know, I do think it's easier sometimes to do the performative stuff and I'm for the
• 39:53
  performative stuff.
• 39:54
  I want to be clear.
• 39:55
  I need to call it performative, but it's important representation is important.
• 40:00
  But the reason why you have those people up there is to talk about ways to organize
• 40:05
  and help each other, right?
• 40:08
  Like it's not and that needs to be the thing that we're doing.
• 40:13
  Like you win.
• 40:15
  I talk to someone with a different experience and I want them to talk about, you know,
• 40:19
  smug white liberals.
• 40:20
  I don't want to just talk about have smug white liberals with a problem and we need to
• 40:23
  have more representation on TV.
• 40:26
  Like it's, we need to have representation on TV so that these people can talk about
• 40:31
  the political problems that they have that we have, right?
• 40:37
  Like and also, by the way, you don't, you shouldn't just have trans people on type of
• 40:43
  trans issues or black people.
• 40:44
  You know that.
• 40:45
  I mean, that's so obvious, right?
• 40:46
  Like, representation.
• 40:47
  Well, I don't know.
• 40:48
  I don't think that's obvious to a lot of young progress, I think a lot of young progressives
• 40:52
  think.
• 40:53
  I mean, it's obvious to me that a person could have an idea about policy, even if they
• 40:58
  didn't belong to the group, you know, for whom the policy was devised.
• 41:03
  But I think that's increasingly unpopular idea.
• 41:06
  For instance, you could have a trans person talk about labor rights and not trans issues.
• 41:10
  Sure, but you couldn't have a labor union organizer talk about trans issues.
• 41:16
  I think you'd have to make sure you had all your bases covered.
• 41:20
  Yeah.
• 41:21
  Like, one of those bases would be that you'd have to be trans.
• 41:23
  Well, you know, what does this person bring to, like, it's a, well, it's a question
• 41:26
  of like, what is this person bring, what knowledge is this person bring?
• 41:29
  For instance, if a labor organizer wanted to talk about having to, if a labor organizer
• 41:34
  had had an experience with trans rights, like for instance, someone in their union got
• 41:42
  fired for being trans, I would think the labor organizer should talk.
• 41:48
  Sure.
• 41:49
  Yeah.
• 41:50
  I mean, in that case, they would, because the labor union's opinion would align with
• 41:53
  the trans, or not, I mean, whatever, like it, but I don't think I think there would
• 41:58
  be pushback if a labor union organizer was defending the rights of like the Korean
• 42:05
  workers in the spa who didn't want to wax the balls of a trans woman and the labor union.
• 42:11
  There would be pushback, then it would be like, who disagree.
• 42:14
  Sure.
• 42:15
  I mean, everyone can talk about anyone can talk about anything, honestly.
• 42:18
  Like, I don't care.
• 42:19
  Like, if you're concerned today, though, is that they can't, well, no, he can.
• 42:24
  People do that.
• 42:25
  People go on TV and say things I disagree with and, and, and say things about communities
• 42:31
  that they don't represent all the fucking time.
• 42:33
  Yeah.
• 42:34
  And they frequently get handed out of their jobs.
• 42:35
  No, they don't.
• 42:36
  And tell me someone who got handed out of their jobs.
• 42:38
  Tell me someone who got handed out of, out of their job.
• 42:41
  Oh, I mean, Barry Wise, Andrew Salazar, she was now making $800,000 a year with her
• 42:46
  newsletter.
• 42:47
  I'm going to say there wouldn't be other good jobs.
• 42:50
  So I think that matters.
• 42:51
  I think the fact that there are other good jobs out there matters.
• 42:54
  You can't argue that someone pays an economic price or a professional price.
• 42:58
  If what happens next is that they get a better job.
• 43:02
  Really?
• 43:03
  Yeah.
• 43:04
  Well, the labor, I mean, that would, you can still find it.
• 43:07
  Although I would love it to have a labor union that says you can't get fired for having
• 43:11
  a particular opinion.
• 43:12
  Sure.
• 43:13
  I mean, it would be against the law to get fired.
• 43:16
  Because your boss doesn't like your opinion.
• 43:19
  And then your boss wouldn't be able to fight on the excuse of, well, I went off and
• 43:21
  got another better job.
• 43:22
  No, I mean, if you don't want her, but also it's a, we're at will country, basically.
• 43:27
  Like, people can get fired for any reason.
• 43:30
  Like it, if you can say I got fired for whatever, like, I, anyway, I don't think, I don't
• 43:37
  think it would hold up in court.
• 43:38
  I think it'd be very hard for Barry Weiss to, we want to think Barry Weiss quit again.
• 43:42
  Barry Weiss quit.
• 43:43
  Yeah.
• 43:44
  She quit because I mean, you asked me to give it on again.
• 43:46
  And we're going to go through it and we can go through it and also make some more money
• 43:50
  than he did before.
• 43:52
  Like, I'm not, I'm not saying what you're arguing.
• 43:56
  Are you saying that there's no, there is, there are no situations in America in which there's
• 44:01
  an environment of sort of coercive group think that people feel pushed out of because
• 44:06
  they're there.
• 44:07
  There's some, there's some, there's some, there's some teachers here in Texas who wanted
• 44:11
  to teach about various civil right liberties and they got pushed out.
• 44:16
  Yeah.
• 44:17
  Yeah.
• 44:18
  Exactly.
• 44:19
  And they don't, they haven't been hired anywhere else.
• 44:21
  And it doesn't happen on the other side.
• 44:24
  I think I would like to have a longer conversation about this with some examples.
• 44:30
  Yeah.
• 44:31
  I think I don't quite, I mean, I, I look at this a lot.
• 44:36
  It's not that people don't pay prices.
• 44:40
  It's that I don't know, I mean, there have to be consequences from some things.
• 44:47
  I mean, consequences like, you know, if I get fired for having an opinion, like that sucks,
• 44:58
  although I've mostly worked on contract my entire life.
• 45:00
  So like, I'm, I might have been fired for how many opinions.
• 45:04
  It's sort of part of being in the media.
• 45:06
  Yeah.
• 45:07
  It's part of me in media.
• 45:08
  Um, like, I mean, again, I would like to have a contract that doesn't let me get fired.
• 45:15
  Like for expressing any opinion at all, but, um, you know, I, I'm sort of got lost
• 45:21
  what my point was.
• 45:22
  But my main thing is that I don't think that these high profile cases are good examples.
• 45:28
  No, but, but, but you just asked me.
• 45:31
  Like, I mean, yeah, so like, because I can find lots of foundations for academic freedom
• 45:37
  about the examples of academics who have been pushed out, sideline, like, it's just,
• 45:43
  I think that the, the, the noise that is being made is largely from the right, but I think
• 45:49
  you can find far more censorship of social justice ideas and for more consequences.
• 45:55
  Yeah.
• 45:56
  But I mean, it wouldn't the conclude.
• 45:57
  No, but I, I mean, I, I don't think anybody's saying that this is purely a left wing phenomenon.
• 46:02
  They're saying that the chilling, the chilling effects are bad.
• 46:05
  I mean, the right has been doing it, but the chilling, again, you can't say it's a
• 46:09
  chilling effect.
• 46:10
  If Mary Ways is earning $800,000 a year with a newsletter, where is the chill?
• 46:14
  How does she, how did her, you know, our culture at large is not chilling.
• 46:19
  People may feel like they can't, like they'll get backlash on Twitter if they say something
• 46:24
  unwoke, fine, you know, that's probably true.
• 46:28
  Like, I'm afraid sometimes of saying stuff on Twitter, I have, I have erased tweets that
• 46:34
  I feel like someone might get mad, but you know what, I'm okay with that.
• 46:38
  Well, I'm not sure that fine is the answer.
• 46:40
  I mean, I was talking to Peter.
• 46:41
  I'm okay with that because like, what is my, what do I really want to do on Twitter?
• 46:45
  Like, what, what is, what do I feel like my purpose on this platform?
• 46:49
  Well, hopefully have conversations in good faith.
• 46:52
  Well, yeah, but no, actually, no, if you think Twitter is about having conversations
• 46:57
  in good faith.
• 46:58
  No, you think what do I want to do on Twitter?
• 46:59
  Oh, no, but I know it's not good for that.
• 47:02
  I know what I want to do on Twitter is mainly make jokes and support causes that I believe
• 47:06
  in and ask people to send me pictures of their pets.
• 47:11
  I mean, I think what you're, I think what you're alighting here is the difference between
• 47:16
  pushing back on someone's opinion with other reasons and more argument.
• 47:20
  In other words, a sort of constructive, rambunctious environment of debate in which people
• 47:25
  are justly pilloried for bad ideas and like in which intolerant ideas can be excluded
• 47:31
  from the public square through good argumentation versus what I think the critics of the current
• 47:37
  climate are saying is that it isn't good argumentation that's coming back in response.
• 47:43
  It's quite unquote cancel culture.
• 47:44
  In other words, like I was, I had did a few events recently with Peter Singer, the, the
• 47:48
  ethicist and he was saying like, of course, there should be consequences to people's
• 47:54
  speech, but those consequences should come back in the form of good arguments against
• 47:57
  the point that you're making.
• 47:59
  If the, if the, if the consequence that comes back is you should be fired for saying
• 48:02
  the thing.
• 48:03
  And when you say why the answer is because it's a bad thing to say, that's not conducive
• 48:08
  to a good intellectual culture.
• 48:10
  I agree.
• 48:11
  And I mean, that's, to the extent that I think that's why they shouldn't have the don't
• 48:15
  say gay, Bill and Florida, for instance.
• 48:18
  Right?
• 48:19
  Yeah.
• 48:20
  I'm sure.
• 48:21
  And you can take change in subject.
• 48:22
  And also, but I'm ahead of the date.
• 48:23
  I'm just saying like, I don't think the cancel culture is coming.
• 48:27
  I think the cancel culture is happening in a much more insidious way from the right.
• 48:33
  But that's what about it.
• 48:34
  And you sound like Putin saying, no, I do not, I don't know, like fucking Putin.
• 48:38
  Well, you did it because you changed the subject because you know what?
• 48:41
  Because the people who are making, because the people who are like banning critical race
• 48:45
  theory, who are banning discussion of human sexuality in Texas, they just issued a list
• 48:50
  of like 40 banned books by Texas school district.
• 48:52
  We all know.
• 48:53
  Hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 48:54
  Wait, let me finish.
• 48:55
  Let me finish my point, okay?
• 49:00
  Those are laws that people are making.
• 49:05
  Those are laws.
• 49:06
  Those are people in power who are passing laws about what you can and can't say, right?
• 49:12
  What you're talking about is someone getting hounded off of Twitter.
• 49:15
  That's not a law.
• 49:17
  That is not using the legal apparatus of the state, which ultimately ends in a gun, as
• 49:20
  we know, you know, to keep someone from saying something, sure.
• 49:26
  People on the left do, you know, hound people for sure, right?
• 49:33
  I have not seen very many, at least I can't think of an example top of my head.
• 49:41
  People legislators making laws about what people can talk about in classrooms will know
• 49:51
  the difference.
• 49:52
  That's the difference.
• 49:53
  But, yeah, I mean, you've just said things that I already grant you and that everybody
• 49:56
  would grant you, which is that the right is obsessed with cancel culture as well.
• 50:00
  I mean, I said earlier, like the power of difference, it's a difference, though.
• 50:04
  It's the right is the one making the right, using the apparatus of the state to enforce
• 50:08
  this.
• 50:09
  I'm interested in why someone as intelligent as you isn't interested in interrogating
• 50:16
  the actual point, like let's agree that the right is completely hypocritical on this.
• 50:23
  Let's agree that right wing shrieks about left wing cancel culture are totally disingenuous
• 50:28
  and hypocritical.
• 50:29
  Let's agree that long before there was left wing cancel culture, there was right wing
• 50:34
  cancel culture in the form of McCarthyism and people are like, oh, you can't make any
• 50:39
  jokes these days.
• 50:40
  Like if Monty Python was on these days, then they wouldn't be able to do all of these
• 50:45
  outrageous things anymore because they'd get canceled.
• 50:47
  And I say to them, when Monty Python made life of Brian, they almost did get canceled
• 50:52
  because religious conservatives didn't want the church being mocked.
• 50:56
  When they were actually producing this stuff, it was the right that was objecting to it.
• 50:59
  So let's grant all that and park it.
• 51:01
  And then we no longer have to point to it as a, but, but, but, but, but, but they do it
• 51:05
  as well.
• 51:06
  Instead, we actually have what they do at worst.
• 51:09
  So they do it in this way or they do it in schools or they do it in laws.
• 51:12
  Let's actually interrogate the thing that I think is, is being alighted, which is that,
• 51:18
  which is this more subtle climate, and you can deny that it exists.
• 51:22
  I mean, that would be another position to take.
• 51:25
  But either it, either it doesn't exist or it's a thing and if it's a thing, then maybe
• 51:29
  it's worth understanding in which case it's worth understanding in the absence of it.
• 51:34
  It's just one of those things where it's like, it's the scale.
• 51:39
  And maybe if you're saying you're just willing to grant me that the problem, people,
• 51:43
  I just feel like people passing laws about what you can discuss and can't discuss.
• 51:48
  And people, you know, creating school systems that are blinkered by this is a bigger problem
• 51:57
  than someone getting attacked on Twitter.
• 52:00
  Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons why I think why I'm so...
• 52:03
  Should people get attacked on Twitter or not?
• 52:05
  I mean, I wish they didn't.
• 52:07
  One of the reasons why I'm so worried about the cultural situation we find ourselves
• 52:13
  in is because I do think that each side ratchets up the other side.
• 52:18
  So I don't think it's really useful to blame the other side as if they're doing this thing
• 52:24
  in isolation.
• 52:27
  When you actually talk to the people who are passing these noxious discriminatory
• 52:32
  don't say gay bills, they think that they're defending the rights of young people,
• 52:39
  not to have their minds polluted by what they feel is an overly aggressive push towards
• 52:45
  discussing issues of sexuality and gender at a young age.
• 52:49
  And are they 99% wrong about that?
• 52:52
  Yes.
• 52:53
  But is there a 1% kernel of truth that we have become extremely aggressive maybe on the left
• 53:00
  about insisting that there is no such thing as gender or that gender is invented or that it has
• 53:06
  no mooring in biological sex and that anyone can choose their gender.
• 53:12
  And are we insisting that that is a truth like a scientific truth and a cultural truth
• 53:17
  in a way that makes them feel like they're belittled and makes them feel like
• 53:21
  their religious interpretation of sex is not only a difference of opinion that they're allowed
• 53:26
  to have but something that is going to get steamrolled out of existence in the future.
• 53:31
  And so is is their response a backlash like to me there are a couple of snakes like sniping
• 53:36
  at each other and it's worth understanding where the venom is coming from on both sides rather
• 53:42
  than just always pointing at the other snake if that makes sense.
• 53:45
  I hear you I think what I get caught on is the fact that I think the points that you are raising
• 53:58
  which aren't disagree I think you won't pick out I disagree with some of it but I think I
• 54:06
  understand your general point which is that the left has a I would say it's a circular firing squad
• 54:13
  problem but that they there are people on the left that do want to shout down or express
• 54:25
  extreme hurt over issues of identity okay yes and I also think that corporations have chosen to
• 54:37
  overreact in public spheres rather than to have genuine changes in their offices for instance
• 54:47
  I think that it's much easier to fire or discipline someone than it is to hire more people
• 54:52
  who might look more different you know what I mean yeah or to make significant changes in your
• 54:58
  personnel you know regulations but like if we're going to talk about it's interesting to me that
• 55:07
  it's hard to talk about cancel culture without talking about trans issues it gets whenever
• 55:14
  I have a discussion or watch a discussion about it it always comes up usually around the way
• 55:19
  that you've said it is it okay why can't we just say that you know is it wrong to say they're
• 55:23
  just two genders or whatever and I know I have a trans friend who is much more articulate about this
• 55:31
  than me Parker Maloy courage people to go and search out her stuff but I'm going to try to recapitulate
• 55:39
  some of the things that she's expressed to me which is the thing about picking out that particular
• 55:46
  debate is that when you make this issue about why can't there just be two genders a meta topic right
• 55:59
  like you're not actually arguing about the rights of trans people you're making it about
• 56:03
  yeah some philosophical thing yeah right you are in some ways actually dehumanizing the issue right
• 56:10
  you're not talking about the actual lived experience of a trans person you're just like making it
• 56:16
  about somehow this again this philosophical debate about can you say that there are two genders
• 56:21
  hmm like she won't she actually has a story like she won't do TV anymore because every time she
• 56:28
  tries to talk about like the issue of bathroom bills or whatever and like what they mean for
• 56:34
  trans people someone's like there are just two genders and she's like whatever yeah fine okay believe
• 56:43
  there are two genders I'm talking about you know creating an atmosphere where my people aren't
• 56:49
  considered second-class citizens that's her concern yeah but I mean that that if I think if you
• 56:55
  led with that then you would have so much less hostility in America and I mean yeah yeah that's
• 57:06
  right I mean really I mean and I mean as I'm I'm married to a guy who has and our many of our
• 57:13
  family friends are delightfully tramp flamboyant trans people and and the reason why I raised trans
• 57:22
  as an example a moment ago is because of the specific example that you gave of the Texas don't
• 57:27
  say gay law which is I think less about gayness or it is about Florida sorry Florida what Texas has
• 57:35
  Texas has done is deemed that gender forming care is child abuse yes that's right we just actually
• 57:42
  I mean they're both terrible so Texas one is I mean my my sense and I won't keep you forever this
• 57:48
  has been a fruitful and interesting argument but the I mean my sense which I'll get your thoughts
• 57:54
  on finally is that it's it's not so much about the circular firing squad although that exists
• 58:03
  I think they're concerned as it's articulated by the more reasonable people who share this
• 58:08
  concern like John Hyte would be there's just a level of certainty of self certainty at the moment
• 58:16
  that is unbecoming for intellectual people and for academics that instead of having a sort of
• 58:24
  a slight a bit of intellectual humility and saying look my belief is that you know all let's not
• 58:31
  even use the example of trans because as you say it is is you know needlessly yes it's dehumanizing
• 58:38
  and it's sort of needlessly controversial and you know when you're putting people's lives on
• 58:42
  the line but you know what's another left wing topic let's talk about maybe in an Australian
• 58:48
  contemporary example it might be for example indigenous issues of First Nations rights and you know
• 58:53
  the the requirement to have an acknowledgement of country as they call it before any any broadcast
• 59:00
  or something where you acknowledge the traditional and it's a land or something like that like if
• 59:04
  you put that in an American context you know maybe that's another another thing that people would
• 59:08
  sort of raise their eyes out or sneak it sneak up behind their hands if they had to had to do it
• 59:12
  yep and instead of taking an opinion of like well I think this is a nice inclusive thing
• 59:19
  why don't we do this it's no skin off our nose it doesn't matter if you get it wrong it doesn't
• 59:24
  matter if you say the words a bit wrong it doesn't really matter when you do it but it's a cool
• 59:29
  thing to do instead of that being the vibe the vibe seems to be we now live in a world in which we
• 59:36
  know that this nation is founded on white supremacy and as penance for that you as a white person who
• 59:43
  is guilty are being complicit in the superstructure of white supremacy whether you want to admit it or
• 59:48
  not are going to say these words in like this style on a show trial and you're going to read this
• 59:52
  Marxist script and if you don't there's going to be fucking hell to pay and you're not going to be
• 59:57
  invited to polite society and you're not going to be invited to cocktail parties and you're not going
• 1:00:00
  to be employed by the New York Times but who cares because you're going to go off and you're
• 1:00:03
  going to make $800,000 on your alternative sub stack but in the real world in the real media in
• 1:00:10
  the real like Brooklyn elite you're going to be fucking person and on grata unless you say these
• 1:00:15
  fucking words you found like that is the that is the vibe that you're getting from the left
• 1:00:20
  that's the vibe that's the vibe and it's feeding into the it's feeding into the backlash
• 1:00:28
  I'm sure that is the vibe and the problem is I don't think it's the truth I mean first of all
• 1:00:32
  the people that I've heard express the kind of like you have to say this and say it in a certain
• 1:00:37
  way and you you know we're whatever this white supremacy and can't ever forget it are mainly white
• 1:00:42
  people oh yeah absolutely I'm not putting this on minorities at all this is the university educated
• 1:00:47
  white elite this is and this is a place we're actually going back to like why we have representation
• 1:00:53
  why we should have representation is I would like to have more indigenous people and people of color
• 1:00:58
  making decisions about that kind of thing yeah like asking around like is this the thing you want
• 1:01:02
  because I've talked to I don't want to my friends don't speak for all indigenous people but I'll
• 1:01:06
  tell you not every indigenous person I've ever talked to thinks that land acknowledgments are
• 1:01:09
  great idea you know like and you we were not going to be able to pull of all people but your
• 1:01:16
  individual institution can probably find some you know historians and find some indigenous people
• 1:01:21
  and find you know like there can be a decision made with the input of the people you're supposedly
• 1:01:26
  trying to honor hmm right to talk about it rather than this this is why I'll say performative white
• 1:01:33
  guilt yeah I mean it's like terms like black and eggs and stuff that white people will let next
• 1:01:38
  actually I mean it actually has a history beyond just these current days I mean have you seen the
• 1:01:43
  polling from I agree I agree I don't and again yes that you actually were making yes we are
• 1:01:51
  on its same page here because ask some people what they want and like so my friend Parker on
• 1:01:56
  trans issues she would rather talk about the bathroom bill then she would talk about whether or not
• 1:02:02
  there are two genders yes yes she would like to talk about the much higher numbers of trans people's
• 1:02:09
  being assaulted in bathrooms then trans people then there's hardly fact you cannot find this idea
• 1:02:14
  that trans people are assaulting little kids is like a folktale basic yeah yeah um what does happen
• 1:02:20
  is trans people get assaulted themselves in bathrooms hmm right so she would rather talk about that
• 1:02:29
  then the I then whether or not there are two genders or whether or not it's inherent or whether
• 1:02:34
  whatever and so yeah so like with latinics I would rather talk about I would you know you have you
• 1:02:41
  I think it's weird to have when we you are right this is the place that the left is stuck in and
• 1:02:46
  that I want to actually say the left this is the place where the news media is stuck which is
• 1:02:50
  performatively liberal progressive hmm they're stuck in a place where they think what it means to
• 1:02:56
  have a debate over latino issues is to have people debate latinics and not debate like there is a
• 1:03:06
  genuine real and thorny issue I have no answers for here in Texas about the latinos voting more
• 1:03:15
  geopie sorry that's midoki hey um of a neighbor coming um her stuff we did dog training
• 1:03:24
  this morning um and so she's I have in my setup in my backyard I have like dog jumps
• 1:03:34
  yeah what is she um my dog is a he hold on I'm actually gonna go let him out yeah go go
• 1:03:41
  I am very sorry about that but that's okay it's cute because I miss having a dog so
• 1:03:48
  oh well I like to vicariously experience your dog box um his she loves his trainer very very
• 1:03:54
  much so he really was upset that he wasn't being able to say hi to her
• 1:03:57
  oh he's picking up our dog jumps so let him have to go say hi um that's cute uh so saying I mean
• 1:04:05
  I mean, I do think so, this problem is that is white people trying to performatively erase
• 1:04:14
  this bad taste, you know, by doing these things they think are the opposite of white supremacy,
• 1:04:28
  whatever that means, right?
• 1:04:31
  Whereas what is probably a good idea or sysness or whatever, you know, is to talk to the people
• 1:04:40
  that you're trying to help is actually a weird word, also don't try to help them.
• 1:04:47
  Another thing is like put them in charge, you know, like just say here we are thinking about
• 1:04:54
  doing a disability rights, you know, program, hey, you disabled people, hey, let's hire a bunch,
• 1:05:01
  you know, let's bring in people who know what you know what this is like, and this is like where
• 1:05:05
  lived experience does matter, right? Yeah. Like this is where you want lived experience, not necessarily
• 1:05:11
  just to talk about disability, but what would be helpful for you? Yes, exactly, that's right. Yeah,
• 1:05:18
  I think we've often lost sight of the difference, the different forms of experience that come from
• 1:05:24
  lived experience versus having studied a thing for a very long time, for example, if you're talking
• 1:05:29
  about academic policies. I want to get back to like the hounding and whatnot and point out like,
• 1:05:36
  again, this is almost all white people, all straight white cis people who do the hounding,
• 1:05:42
  like they think probably on behalf of others, you know, definitely. Sorry,
• 1:05:50
  Hey buddy, come on. He's just, he's allowed. He's allowed. That's okay. He's allowed. We don't mind.
• 1:05:55
  He's allowed to be part of the conversation. I'm not going to be describing it for you. He has very
• 1:06:00
  strong opinions. Yeah, exactly. That's right. I will tell you. He wants his voice heard.
• 1:06:05
  He, oh boy, he, and he only has one voice. Oh god, we've someone just rang the doorbell. Oh,
• 1:06:11
  go. I'm going to release you soon. Go and see what it is. I swear to God, I usually live the
• 1:06:16
  life of a hermit. He was so popular. This is the most activity in a long time. That was actually
• 1:06:23
  just a delivery person. So anyway, I think I've made my point. I think we're, we're sort of getting
• 1:06:29
  to a place where we see each other from where we're standing. Yeah, no, I think so. Can you,
• 1:06:35
  can you, can you wrap by telling me because you were such an early adopter of Twitter and so
• 1:06:40
  successful initially, what's going to happen? What's going to become of Twitter? I got, I hope that
• 1:06:45
  Elon Musk's, um, if he buys it, I hope that just hastens it, it's demise. Um, I feel like every
• 1:06:54
  new media platform does have a like a 10 year, a chimney. Yeah, yeah. It's time for something else,
• 1:07:01
  man. Um, like I appreciate Twitter now. Again, I don't think if you're looking to have a good
• 1:07:08
  faith conversation on Twitter, just, just go to your local coffee shop. Yeah. It's just not,
• 1:07:15
  it's not, it wasn't actually built for that. You know, um, I mean, didn't it seem to be when
• 1:07:21
  you first got into it? Didn't it seem to be a place for you? Limited people, limited number of
• 1:07:26
  people on it. Um, it was before it kind of got, we had this, you know, growth in the memeification
• 1:07:32
  of white supremacy, you know, um, anyway, it's not good for it now. Um, I'm actually thinking
• 1:07:40
  about starting a blog again. Oh, I know, like go retro. Um, I hate newsletters, by the way. Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  What's the difference? Um, I mean, not, I know technically what the difference is, but like,
• 1:07:54
  what for you is the creative? Well, I hate newsletters because the business model of newsletters,
• 1:07:59
  I think is not sustainable. Um, there's a limit, right? Like, uh, of how many newsletters a person
• 1:08:08
  can get. And I subscribed to like a bunch of my friends, newsletters, and I read them, naming
• 1:08:17
  no names, uh, there were very few of them I read on a regular basis, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's
• 1:08:22
  just too much. Whereas a blog, like you can see like, oh, that doesn't look that interesting. Oh,
• 1:08:27
  you know, that looks interesting, right? Yeah. I'll read that. Right. You're not messing up my
• 1:08:33
  inbox. Yeah. With fucking, and also I know from talking to substack, substack demands,
• 1:08:40
  they're paid writers have to send out like three emails a week. That's too much. Yeah. Who can
• 1:08:44
  do that? And, and your ideas will not always be good. You know, you're, they just can't,
• 1:08:51
  this won't be. And I actually think there should be like a, some kind of official columnist,
• 1:08:59
  term limit situation, because columnists run out of ideas and you don't have to go away forever,
• 1:09:06
  right? But you should have to go away for a little while. Maybe it's a paid thing. Maybe it's
• 1:09:12
  part of the contract, because you'll be better when you come back, I swear. Yeah, you have to go
• 1:09:16
  on a sabbatical. You have to go on a year long sabbatical, go live among the people or something.
• 1:09:21
  Yeah. Come back to Australia for a year. Yeah. I would, I would love that.
• 1:09:25
  Yeah. In my, sorry, I, I did answer the question. You did answer the questions.
• 1:09:31
  You did. I'm going to let you go and let your dog out and run the plan and go and collect
• 1:09:35
  your, all of your deliveries. Do you think we got to a place where we understand each other?
• 1:09:39
  Yes, I do. Okay. I think I see your point. I don't agree with a bunch of it. No, I mean,
• 1:09:46
  I think we disagree, but I think we get it. I mean, I think we disagree in constructive ways,
• 1:09:50
  hopefully, but I think the core, for me, the core kernel of agreement is there is a performative
• 1:09:58
  white liberalism that steam rolls everything in front of us. Yes. And your principle concern is
• 1:10:03
  that it's steam rolls, the people who should be have it, who should have the microphone, who might
• 1:10:08
  be people who are living with disabilities or people of color. And whilst that is also a concern
• 1:10:13
  of mine, my concern is this larger elephant that that is in the room, which is the steam roller,
• 1:10:20
  which is the reaction from the right to the state to it's steam rolling of it. And I think
• 1:10:26
  just suggesting the elephant makes it bigger. Right. Right. I think that a lot of like, you know,
• 1:10:34
  the Fox news builds it, you know, like, again, they wouldn't have programming.
• 1:10:40
  If there wasn't a so-called debate about council culture. Right.
• 1:10:47
  I don't know if that I don't know where we can work together on this. I do think you're right.
• 1:10:53
  Like, I think we see each other and I understand what you're saying. My concern is just debating
• 1:11:01
  cancel culture. I'm not kind of entirely kidding about debating the elephant makes it worse.
• 1:11:07
  Yeah. No, I know what you mean. I mean, I know what you mean that, you know, there are,
• 1:11:12
  there are quote-unquote left-wing liberals who like spend all of their time talking about
• 1:11:17
  how illiberal the left is. Yeah. And before you know it, they've turned into Dave Rubin. And
• 1:11:21
  you're like, hang on, what do you mean you're a liberal? Exactly. How it works.
• 1:11:26
  Like green walls. Right. Yeah. And that's a problem of its own, of its own. But I don't think
• 1:11:33
  that the solution is to, I don't think it's an on-off switch where you're either Dave Rubin
• 1:11:37
  or Glen Greenwald or we have to close it, we have to cover our ears and close our eyes and go,
• 1:11:42
  la, la, la, la, la, la, there is no problem on the left. There is no problem on the left.
• 1:11:45
  Like, there has to be some way of conversing about it that's constructive.
• 1:11:49
  Can I leave you with a thought that maybe it's kind of almost a cone,
• 1:11:53
  considering we're having a podcast here? Yeah. One of the lessons I feel like I've learned
• 1:12:00
  in this process of kind of figuring out whether or not I perform my politics or I do politics,
• 1:12:06
  if I can make the distinction, is realizing that not every conversation needs to be had in public.
• 1:12:15
  And it still counts as a conversation. Yeah. And I think that a lot of times the kinds of
• 1:12:22
  conversations you're talking about wanting to have are great conversations to have.
• 1:12:29
  And maybe they don't, but maybe we don't need to put on a panel about it. Yeah, that's right.
• 1:12:36
  That's right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because like for instance,
• 1:12:42
  you know, I have finally learned when someone I don't as have as many conservative friends as I
• 1:12:48
  used to, it's hard to be like the Trump thing. Yeah. Bad. It became hard to overlook some certain
• 1:12:59
  things, you know. Well, I don't even call Trump supporters conservatives anyway. I mean,
• 1:13:03
  their reactionaries are something I still have supporters, but not Trump supporters.
• 1:13:08
  I have learned if someone says something on Twitter that I find offensive, the best thing to do,
• 1:13:13
  if someone I call a friend is not to tweet at them. Yeah.
• 1:13:23
  You know, it is to say, you know, I did you mean? Is that a thing that you meant to say?
• 1:13:32
  Look, if I could, if I could personally meet every annoying young liberal
• 1:13:38
  work star and grab them by the scruff of the neck and go, look at what you're doing.
• 1:13:42
  You're only provoking the elephant. You're only provoking the bear. Be a little bit more
• 1:13:46
  reasonable than I would. In the meantime, I'll try to keep a quiet. I'll try to step gently.
• 1:13:52
  Fair point. Fair point. And what quite, although you'll be amazed if you do find someone that
• 1:13:57
  seems to stand out to you like on Twitter or something, starting a conversation, a private conversation.
• 1:14:03
  You might choose a person's life. Yeah. It's true. It's true. In a way that they're not going to listen
• 1:14:10
  to your podcast. Yeah. But they might listen to you. Yeah. It's true. They should also listen to my
• 1:14:16
  podcast. Sure. Yes. Of course. Thank you for bearing with my dog. Thank you for bearing with me.
• 1:14:23
  And thank you for getting through the uncomfortable part where we're yelling at each other too.
• 1:14:27
  I like it. That's a part of the show. It's been a while. It's been a while. It's on the show's name.
• 1:14:30
  It's on the tip. It's on the box. Yeah. A little bit. Thank you. Lovely to talk to you.
• 1:14:36
  Thank you. I haven't had a really good time.
• 1:14:42
  Uncomfortable conversations is produced by Stefan Posthuma. Follow me, Josh Lips on Twitter and
• 1:14:48
  Instagram. For all the latest, may your day be fruitful, your mind humble, your enemies,
• 1:14:54
  generous and your conversations perfectly, sparklingly, delectably, uncomfortable.