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Surviving Sexual Abuse: TRB#18- Christine Molano · The Redeemed Backslider

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your host, kathy Chastain.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Christian-based psychotherapist and Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Kathy Chastain.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and also a Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: With me in the studio today is my friend, Christine Milano.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: So, Christine, welcome.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having me.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: So I know that we've talked a little bit about how hard it is to come in, especially when you're a newly redeemed backslider, how hard it is to come in and kind of share your story and the trepidation of putting everything out on front street that you know we've walked through when we were in the world.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: So I just want to say thanks for your willingness to come in and be transparent.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: I know it must be difficult to me and hopefully, whatever I share resonates with you.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Know people that have struggled with trauma or addiction, because those are the things that I struggled with right.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: So what?
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: What age were you when you, when your family got in church, when you guys got picked up on the bus route, what?
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: What was your age when you started going for the first time?
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: um, I I kind of say like um, when we got picked up on the bus, um, I want to say I was like five or six years old, because me and my brother like a year apart, okay, and that probably happened like a couple of times I I don't really in my mind, I don't think that that's where the church came into my life.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: It was more for me like around 10 or 12 years old, and that was the time when my mom gave her life to the Lord.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Okay, mom gave her life to the Lord.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Okay, and that was like a turning point in our family's life, in our household, that I seen that things began to change like hope or for the better, because prior to that of 10 or 12 years old, there was well, there was five of us.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: At the time my younger sister wasn't, she wasn't born, so at that time I was the youngest daughter.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: My brother was the youngest.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: He only had one son and then three older sisters and my mom and dad.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: They had already had their struggles like with marriage, and it was in the 70s, and so the 70s was like disco and you know, my parents were young and, um, they kind of liked the night life and how old how old was your mom when she had her first child?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: do you know?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I want to say she was 19 okay, and by the time you came along, because you were number four, she was still in three or something.
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she was, as is very young yeah, she was very young and um, so her and my dad, you know they had their own marital struggles as a, you know, young couple, but, um, my dad was a great provider.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: He was very protective of us and very strict, because all the girls that he had and, uh, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, okay, yeah, so, um, but like going forward to when I was 10, that's, um, they had their own struggles of like maybe domestic violence a little bit and, um, growing up in that environment kind of left us always scared, or you know what would that look like?
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: what did you guys experience?
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: what did you experience as a um, just um, you know, fighting, arguing didn't really know what was really going on, but um, the way they found happiness was going out to with friends and drinking and stuff like that.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: So it was a lot of that.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: We didn't go to church or anything like that.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: But for me, I think I had a lot going on in my head from early years.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Um, probably, like when I think about it, I was thinking that, maybe because I know it was before they like I went to school, kindergarten.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: So I would say like maybe three or four and um, why did you notice it?
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: Three or four um well, at that time I was uh touched inappropriately on multiple occasions and wow, and you, you have memory of that yeah, I have a wall.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: The earliest memory I have, um, I must have been about three or four, because I know it was before I started school yeah and um, and it was probably four or five times, but it, um, it happened between you know that early age to the time I was 10.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: So so it was ongoing, mm-hmm.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Was it the same person?
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Or was it Same person?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: Same person.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: It was somebody my family knew, my parents knew, and it was.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: It was somebody my family knew.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: And did anyone in the family know?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Did you keep that a secret?
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: I kept it a secret.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I kept it a secret, and the impact that it left on me was just so heavy oh yeah yeah, it was so heavy, um, I I didn't believe that I was loved and that was like my early childhood.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I I just didn't believe it and um, I struggled with that, um, from a young age so this person had access to you pretty regularly, consistently.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: They didn't live in the same town, so we would go to their home and I remember at first it started like a hug but it was more of a hug.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: It was more of a hug and it was like a forceful thing that progressed and um is that when you got older?
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: no, it was during that time.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Um, I just remember like being a little girl and you know it was I we were like really, you know, kids that listened, we were well behaved, um, so for me it was just like I just stood there and froze and kind of just my mind went somewhere else, like I was just out of like when people say you're out of body.
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: Um, that's associated.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what it would happen to me.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: And um, you know, um, different times it would happen.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: I always thought that maybe it happened to my sister, um, because I remember a time when, you know, we were both there together, but then she was gone, and so I always kept it to myself until maybe about maybe seven years ago, when I had told her hey, do you remember when so-and-so did this?
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: And she said no, that never happened to me oh and I said what?
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: and?
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: And then I knew it was just, it was just me, but it was.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: I just thought, oh well, she knows, and we just never talk about it.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: So, christine, you didn't feel loved in your childhood, even during that molestation.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: You didn't feel loved Because I know that some people, when they're molested as children, get very confused.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: That that is love, that that makes them feel special.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: You know up looking for that.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: They become sexualized really young.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: They grow up being very promiscuous as a result of that because they've associated that with a feeling of love or feeling wanted.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: So for you it didn't feel that way.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: For you you were very aware.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: It did at certain times, because my siblings joke around and say, hey, do you remember that time when you were in the bushes sitting down with this one certain boy and you were kissing and I was maybe like five years old, maybe like five years old, and I remember wanting attention from you?
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: Know, like boys.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: Boys.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: And being just sit right next to them and didn't know what you know, and it was at a young age, yeah.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: How did that affect you going through elementary school?
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, did you notice that you were boy crazy?
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Did you have any behavioral problems at that time?
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: Well, me and my brother have always been close and so I felt like I overreacted.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: Not that I wanted to be a boy, but I wanted to be brave and I just had problems in school learning.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: I couldn't focus, I didn't want to go to school and I think my mom had problems with me because it was like she's disobedient or you know, she doesn't listen and she don't want to go to school and I can't make her.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: And I was just you know, and it was because I had never told her and I can't make her, and I was just you know, and it was because I had never told her and I couldn't focus in school at all yeah so the dissociation, did that begin to happen more, even when you weren't being molested?
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: so would you just dissociate in normal life day?
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: to day yeah, and that that grew so much.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Can you talk about that a little bit?
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I I always say, like man, I always talk to myself and I didn't know if that's normal or not, but, um, I think the shame of it that weighed on me so much and I kind of I don't know if I denied the things that happened or I don't really know what was going on with me.
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: I just felt a little numb so I began to cut myself without anybody knowing.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: How old were you In?
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Elementary is all I know.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: I know it was before I got to maybe high school or middle school no, maybe middle school.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: I began to have little scars where I used to cut myself and see how far I could get and I would cut myself just because I thought maybe I couldn't talk to anybody.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: So that would have been in like the 1970s.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: I know that that happened in the 70s and the 80s.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean cutting.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: We didn't hear about cutting back then.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was young so if it was happening, obviously I wouldn't have exposure to that.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: But you know, we just started hearing about cutting in the last you know, really um a little pre-covid.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: So, like 2018-19 is when cutting really began to be um more mainstream it was um I would get like a safety pin and I would just begin to wow and cut my thigh or poke my thigh, and just you know I, I it just um.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Nobody ever knew um what I was doing so I imagine you had a lot of intrusive thoughts.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Do you remember?
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Do you remember what you struggled with mentally in your mind?
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the turmoil and the mental thing that I struggled with was that nobody loved me.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So what did that look like?
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: How did that play out?
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: I think one time, you know, I was crying Like I was always this crybaby and I don't know if it was for attention or you know, but I was, I was.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: That's the way I.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: I would cry a lot and why would you think it was for attention?
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I find that interesting.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: You would automatically default to that.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: What makes you think you cried for attention?
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: I think, because sometimes you hear that you know as a child yeah, you hear that.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: Or you know as a child yeah, you hear that.
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: Or you know behave, act right.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: And I just couldn't, you know, I just couldn't say what happened.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: And that that's my point is that parents you know, I'm a parent as well we do a lot of damage because we don't understand.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: But I tell parents now, you know when children are crying it's not for attention.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: If children are crying, they're crying.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: It may not seem obvious, you may not know why, but I don't think you know.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Probably 95% of the time kids are not faking crying.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Probably 95% of the time kids are not faking crying.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: So it makes me sad that you would have that automatic belief system that maybe you are crying for attention because, no, you are wounded.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: You are hurting.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: And so I think that way too.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Now, you know, when I see somebody crying what's wrong, you know I want to get down to it because I I think about the things that I went through right.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: So I'm just, I just naturally like something's, something's wrong, what is it?
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: You know, I try to get that out, but, um, I couldn't at that time and I couldn't, you know, talk to anybody about it.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: And you didn't talk to your brother, even though you guys were close.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: No, we didn't.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Nobody, we didn't speak about it.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: I didn't speak about it to anybody.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know for anyone watching, I've said this before, I'm going to say it again Sexual child as sexual abuse in children.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: In 2001, the statistics were 6 out of 10.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Or 2025, over 24 years ago.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I believe those statistics have increased quite a bit, but the common denominator is that it is always kept a secret.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: So if anyone is out there watching and you have been abused as a child in any way, it doesn't have to be sexual abuse.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: It could have been verbal abuse, physical abuse, any kind of abuse that has caused you to feel less than as a person.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe talk to the Lord about it and ask him for courage to start kind of digging into your history, because it is the one place that the enemy can keep us trapped and really keep you stuck.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Even though you might want to live for God, you might want to do all the right things, the shame of that exposure and it is devastating for most, and you know what's so unfortunate is that the ones that are actually victimized.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: You know they're innocent and yet they are the ones that live with the most repercussions.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: So tell your spouse, tell your parent, tell your friend, tell somebody.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Cross that threshold of fear and just tell somebody so that you can begin to heal, because I believe that the Lord is trying to expose these things in people for them to heal, so that we could ultimately release it to him, and we can't release it if the enemy keeps it hidden.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Right, and I think too that the enemy puts those thoughts in your mind that for me I was always like well, I don't want to be known as this.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: Know this poor, you know a victim, I don't want to have that, you know, thought of.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: You know what people say right about that.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: But you probably didn't want anyone to feel sorry for you or have pity right, right because, like you said you were trying to be strong.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so did.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Did that?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Did you continue to sort of people, please in your early years and just you know, kind of say yes to things and go with the flow?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Um, because I did, I mean I was not abused but, um, my, my not feeling loved and all of those things led me to rebellion.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I fought.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: In our central nervous system we fight flight, which means leave or freeze.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: So I always fought and left and other people just kind of freeze and get stuck.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: So it sounds like you just kind of froze and did whatever anybody told you.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I froze.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: There was like different periods where I froze, Then I fought.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: Like you saying that, it just described a lot of things that I rebelled.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: But you know, Ahad did so much damage to me by the time I was 16, I had attempted suicide.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: And you know, nobody knew.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Were you at that time, christine, able to connect the dots?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, did you know that your struggles were rooted in your sexual abuse, or were you just struggling with loneliness and torment in the mind?
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah did you ever connect the dots?
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: no, okay, I never connected the dots because I just wanted to forget that that happened right and fun people do that and the fact that the family knew that person was, they spoke highly of them.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: You never felt like you and I just like oh yeah, you know they're a great person or whatever.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Was that person in church or not in church?
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: They were in church.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: That makes me sick.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know that happens at 16.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: How did you attempt?
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: What happened?
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: I had decided that I'm going to drink every pill in the bottle that I had.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: I had a bottle of Tylenol.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: I drank all of them.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: I also drank some other pills that were in the bathroom and it just made me sick.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: How long do you think you were thinking about suicide before you actually attempted?
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: I couldn't tell you.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: Maybe a year.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: A while.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Did you.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: When you look back at it, can you see its progression?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, I was just curious how that unfolded for you.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: I think it progressed even more because at this time, you know, mom got in church at when I was 10 or 12 I want to say around there, maybe 12, but um, at first I wasn't.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: I didn't wear like skirts or anything.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: I was still like I'm, I'm still a little girl, I'm 12, I'm still, you know, kind of tomboyish or whatever.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Play outside with my brother.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: I found a lot of solace with playing with kids outside and back then we were young and that's what kids did.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: It is yeah.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so with the church they added for the rules.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: I think I was so rebellious because I felt like they were trying to control me.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Right, and I'm so glad you said that, because when you've been a victim and you're surviving, you're in survival mode.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: The last thing you need or want is someone to control you because you've already been victimized.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: And it would feel a lot of the same, it would feel really similar.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: So that's interesting.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I really wonder.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm always curious as where the root of rebellion comes in at, for kiddos and for people when they leave church, right.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: But I think what you just said really makes sense.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: You know, and I think for people out there pastors, other church people, like if you came from a safe home it's very difficult to understand that a little 8-year-old, a little 6-year-old, a little 10-year-old, a little 10-year-old, a little 12-year-old could already have lived such a horrific life that their noncompliance with things is not because they're necessarily trying to be rebellious, it's just the survival right.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: But then it shows up in rebellion because you said you wanted to be brave and I think when we've been a victim it does create that need for safety.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: We're looking for safety.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: So we began to form this exterior to try to maybe keep people away.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying?
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Like a wall.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I always think of like biker dudes.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: You know the one percenters they're probably the weakest and most vulnerable people because they've worked so hard to create this false persona of strength.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And when girls are attracted to the bad boy, it's because the girls are looking for strength.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: They're never going to find it there because it's a false sense of strength.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: But anyways, yeah, that's so interesting.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: So early on you started to rebel against the standards.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Was your mom trying to implement them when she got in church?
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: Not so much because my, my older sisters, they all wore dresses, and I was the one that didn't okay, yeah, so they were already in church yeah, they were in church, and then, um, at some point we all went to the christian school and so everybody wore skirts and so I, I had to wear skirts because of the school, yeah and um.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: So I went to christian school and so everybody wore skirts and so I, I had to wear skirts because of the school, yeah and um.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: So I went to christian school and so, you know, went through that and then, um, I only went middle school and then, um, and then I went to high school and then I just kind of struggled again in high school because I wasn't like in this bubble, you know, and the bubble of fitting into the church culture yeah, and then I was like, okay, I'm already been wearing skirts for two years and I didn't feel like that was me.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: I am.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to adhere to that.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: And I was still dealing with all that in my head.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, shame.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: And that was at 14.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: And so when I first attempted to end my life, I was 16.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: So I was in high school and I felt like the pressure of wearing skirts and not wearing makeup and not know, not cutting my hair and all that.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: I just it was too much for me.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: It was too much, so I I began to plan like, oh you know, when I get older, I'm gonna join the army and I'm just gonna leave yeah, I think it was shame we already have so much self-consciousness, we already feel so awful.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I did that.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: When we don't have an exterior sense of what beauty looks like, we feel even uglier.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I always felt like the ugly duckling I did.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: And it was because you know, it was because how I felt inside and I felt like the outside just always confirmed that.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: So standards is always very difficult you know, but there was a lot of internal pain, like you, you know, with that.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: So when you took all of those pills, did you go to the hospital?
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Nobody knew, no one knew, no one knew.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: So were you the hospital?
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: I didn't, nobody knew.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: No one knew.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: No one knew.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: So were you surprised that your life didn't end.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: What did you do after that?
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I mean mentally in your mind, what were your thoughts when you woke up and you were still alive?
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: I thought either I got to get my act together or nothing's going to like nothing was, everything was still the same for me, but a part of me was saying I need to like, stop thinking like this.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Did you have any concept of hell at that time?
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: I did, I did, but at that time I didn't, I didn't care, I didn't care.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: And I always, you know, my sisters were always saying oh, you always said you didn't care, because I always just made it in voice that I didn't care that if you died, you didn't care if you went to jail.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't say that if I died I didn't care.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: In general, I always said yeah, I didn't say that if I died I didn't care.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: In general, I always said if something happened I don't care.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Like I had a no care attitude.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: I didn't feel.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: I felt like I didn't have any feelings, even though I was a people pleaser.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: I was a people pleaser for because I didn't have any boundaries, but at the same time I was just feeling so unloved and I couldn't shake that part of feeling unloved.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: That was more than anything.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like your family tried to love you?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like that was coming from your home life and the chaos before the family got in church?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Or do you feel like when you look back now?
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Or do you feel like a lot was related to the abuse, or both, yeah, both, I think.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: me being the youngest daughter too, a lot was focused more like on my sisters.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: They were teenagers at that time.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: They demanded more attention.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they demanded they were going to, you know like functions and stuff like that.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so probably inadvertent neglect.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: You just weren't getting the attention you needed right.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: So at 16, you decide okay, this didn't work, I better figure something out.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: And your idea was to go to the military.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm, I remember one time running away and my brother telling on me that she ran away and I don't know if it was for attention, and I think what you're saying is you know that's probably what they said it was attention.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: And I think what you're saying is you know that's probably what they said it was attention, but they never knew what went on with me.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: So in my mind I was thinking I'm just asking for attention, but really I couldn't.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: I never told them.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Well, christine, you were asking for attention, yeah, but not for any reasons.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: You understood.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think your psyche was trying to figure some things out, and so I feel like behavior should be an indicator that there is an internal problem.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't get mad at behavior.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't ever say a kid is just seeking attention.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: They are probably seeking attention but because something is very wrong inside.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and, and clearly it was with you, and I believe that is with most kids.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: It was during those times.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to be away.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to be part of um, I didn't want to be part of the church.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to be part of my family yeah.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: I wanted to just go somewhere else you know, I wanted to escape um somewhere else in my mind.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Where did that lead you?
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Um, well, I I struggled, even in high school.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Um, I just always struggled um feeling loved and just self-worth, and um, at an early age, just like my mom, I got married early and had my daughter, and I was 19, same age, and so for me, my daughter was just my joy.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: And do you have just one?
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: No, I have a son too.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: They're four years apart.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: And so I had Ashley, my daughter, and she just became my world and at that point I wasn't in church, I had already, I had already, you know, left the church and I was young, I was only 19 when I had her and, um, I was married and um, I want to say, like two years into our marriage, um, my husband, you know we were young, and he, you know, he, stepped out of the marriage and stuff, and, um, I, I want to say that, you know, you know it had to.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: You know something in me, you know, maybe, you know I didn't allow, you know, for him to love me or or whatever it was.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Right, right yeah.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: So even in our marriage I struggled with those things.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: So even in our marriage I struggled with those things.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: And then I had my son, and so I had both of them.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: And when I had them.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: I wanted to go back to church for them and so I did that like normal, like most people do.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: They'll, you know, they'll leave, and it's not for them, but hey, you know, it could be for my kids right and so I did that and um they, we went to church and my, my kid's dad, he was mormon, so he wasn't a christian, he was mormon.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: And then he, um was he practicing?
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: no, yeah, I wouldn't think so, but no, and so we had ups and downs and he got into the church but he still stepped out of the marriage and then it was like I checked out and then we were divorced.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: But then after all that and life kind of, you know, just went on.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: You know I started to use alcohol just any time, you know, first like socially, because at that point I hadn't been like exposed really to the world, always kind of been around the church, you know like even though I wasn't in church, my family was all in church and so anytime there was like you know we come from a Christian background, you know like okay, we're gonna do this and I have my kids there and you know.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: So you know I had never.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: But after my divorce happened and my kids grew up, happened and my kids grew up, it was like I didn't know where I was at that point in my life.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: So what age was that?
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: Would you say um my 40s?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: okay, my 40s do you feel like with your having your kids?
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Did that ground you for a while, or did you always still feel alone in that emptiness?
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: I mean they were like my joy and my peace, you know.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: But I think I know when my husband had stepped out of you know, the marriage and had, you know, just he had an affair.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So then I felt that worthlessness again so um then I felt that worthlessness again, and I actually had attempted a second time.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: How did you try that time?
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: I had um told him that I was going to do that and I had drove um an hour and a half away.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: I kind of never spoke about this, um, and I had drove an hour and a half away.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: I kind of never spoke about this and I had drove an hour and a half away.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: So it was very, you know, I was, I knew I was going to do it Very meditated, yeah, and I had rented a hotel room and I decided well, you know, I was going to do the same thing.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: And my ex-husband had called my sister, my oldest sister, and had told her, and I can't really remember other than that she called me and I was an hour and a half away and she pled with me and I came home.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I think so many people get to that place where they just don't.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: You know, in talking to people, I'll always ask the question did you, you know, did you really want to kill yourself?
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: And what most of them will say will be I just didn't want to be here anymore, right?
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: They don't necessarily conceptualize it as killing themselves or suicide.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: They just think I'm tired.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do this anymore.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: I just want to take these pills and not come back.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because prior to that I was sleeping a lot and that's what I would do to ease whatever was going on in my head was just to go to sleep and I would just sleep, and sleep, and sleep and you know, it just kind of grew.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Did you have to take pills to sleep that much, or did the depression just allow you to sleep?
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it allowed me to sleep, but I never.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: After that day, when I did come home, my sister was there at my house and she hugged me and I was like a stone.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: You know no feeling.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: I was shamed, yeah, Shamed, and she told me she loved me, and then nobody spoke about it.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Just on the way I got buried.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: So I've done during that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: So I never, like, went to a counselor for it.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: I never took pills like to help me with, you know, anxiety or anything like that.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: I just pretty much denied it and act like it didn't happen.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah and so, um, that, um, that happened and I was about I think I was 25- wow I was 25, so you know that kind of like from 16 to 25, I mean, all that was still happening yeah and then after that it was kind of a release for me, um, because because at that point then I thought somebody knew something.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: And it became a release for me and then I felt like I'm good.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: And, um, I continue to live life, you know, and, but the effects of everything, I think you know.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: But the effects of everything.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: I think you know I was in bad relationships after that divorce.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: You know I picked the wrong person, you know, like these bad boys, and so I fell into, you know, bad relationships.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: But I can never really keep a relationship because I just felt like they didn't really love me or I just didn't want to commit.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: Ever, I never wanted to commit to anything.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: So you just were in and out of men.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: No, I remarried.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: I remarried.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I remarried, but of course the guy was a bad boy and I didn't know that he was drug addicted.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: And at that point, when I knew he was drug addicted, when I finally found out, like two years into the marriage, I was the people pleaser and I was the one to make sure, like I'm not drinking you know I have to, you know I I was basically like a doormat, yeah.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I would think you're still fairly naive, coming from church culture, growing up Like we don't have a ton of exposure to addiction.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know anybody.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: I thought people didn't have good teeth were you know they didn't have dental ton of exposure to addiction.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know anybody.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: I thought people that didn't have good teeth were you know they didn't have dental insurance you?
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: know, so I had no idea about being addicted to those things and so I always thought, like I didn't want to be perceived, like you know, like I was a victim or my second marriage.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to be perceived, like you know, like I was a victim or my second marriage.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to be perceived, as you know maybe another failed marriage and try to put up a you know something that it wasn't.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: But that marriage was really bad.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: It was very abusive and physically, physically abusive, and I endured that for 10 years.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, why do you think you stayed?
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: I stayed.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: I stayed because I thought you know you're in church and you needed to get married.
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: And I got married again.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: So you were going to church at that time.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: I ended up going to church and I thought well, you know, I'm going to go back to church and Try and get it right.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I and I also felt that my kids were still young that and this is before I knew he was addicted I felt like you know they had, they needed a family unit.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: And I felt like I needed to provide that.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: When you came back to church at that time, did you feel like you were really connected to the Lord?
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Did you feel like you had gotten the Holy Ghost?
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Did you feel like you were on fire for God?
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Did you feel like you were living it, or were you just kind of attending and trying to do what you had been taught?
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just attending, trying to do what I was taught In my mind I still felt like I even felt that God didn't love me.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: I felt like church was for my older sister and I was happy for them to see the blessings and stuff like that.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: But I didn't think I was doing it for whoever I was with or my kids, Okay, Okay.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: In the domestic violence.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Did you ever what?
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: What did that look like?
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Like?
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Chaos, yeah, just chaos did you ever feel like your life was in danger?
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because there's levels of dv, and so I would just oh, it was a.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: It was, it was really bad, where my nose got broken um yeah they ever choke you yes, yeah, they, uh, they say, um that if, if a man will choke a woman, he'll kill her.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: So that's one of the that's one of the flags we look for as therapists.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: You know, when someone is experiencing domestic violence, in terms of severity, choking most often is an indicator that someone has capacity to murder.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: So yeah.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: To the point.
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: You know, there were several times where he choked me to the point where I thought I was going to die.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: So and you just continued to stay.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can you talk about why?
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Do you know what you were going through with that?
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: I thought I could help him.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: For some reason I thought I could.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Some reason I thought I could.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I didn't know the extent of what addiction really was and at and at the same time, I was hiding that the abuse from my family, and you know, um, and my mom would say oh, you know, just bring them to church, and you know that's going to fix everything.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: You and so I stayed.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I stayed for years did he ever go to church with?
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: you, he did, he went to church, but you know, that was only, like you know, maybe eight months, and then he would fall off the boat and then he was addicted to meth, and so with that came a lot of chaos that I was never exposed to and and just the supernatural like demons that I knew that was there.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah that was there.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: So the turning point for me in that marriage was I had gotten really, really sick and I had a surgery and I was just deathly sick.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: I had lost so much weight and I was maybe down to maybe 80 pounds and during yeah, during my you know being sick, my ex-husband you know he was running wild you know, in his addiction, and I just um prayed and I said God, you know, if, if you can spare me to live, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, I'll divorce this man and um, and so that's what ended up happening.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Um, because during the time I was sick, it sick, it was even.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: It wasn't abusive during that time other than, well, it was because of the things that he did, but it wasn't physical.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I've counseled with a good many Christians who are stuck in horrible marriages, domestic violence, addiction, alcoholism, perversion, just all kinds of things, and the one common denominator that makes them stay is we think we can save them.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And I'm just going to tell you you cannot save them.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Only God can save them.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: And in the meantime, the enemy often uses them to weaken you and to really try and attempt to destroy you.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: So I'm really glad you got out of that.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: And I think after that my self-esteem was just so low at that point.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah and I suspect somewhere deep inside you probably felt like you deserved that, that that was all you were capable of having.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: that was the only kind of love right and um, you know, even after that, when I did date, you know, I dated a doctor and other people that weren't, you know, addicted or didn't have these problems, and I wouldn't um allow myself to be committed.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: I didn't feel like I was worthy or I was good enough, and I just yeah.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: So then what?
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: So then after that I decide, you know what I'm just going to, you know, be there for my kids.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: You know I stayed away from church.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: You know my life consisted of, you know, having a career.
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: I was a Medicare broker and just, you know, just focused on that.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: But that, all that other stuff, people didn't really know really what was going on or what I had been through and I didn't really want to tell people because I didn't want people to feel sorry for me or or anything like that.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: um, did you?
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Did you?
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Were you struggling with God?
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Were you angry with God?
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Did you?
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Did you expect God to do something that he didn't do?
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Through all of that, did you ever hold him?
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Did you ever blame him?
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: no, I didn't.
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: I never blamed god.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: I was always thankful to god that I didn't die from the domestic violence, um, and from being sick I was.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: I was very thankful for that and, um, there was a lot of times that god would show up yeah um with me being backslid yeah, well, he never leaves us or forsakes us yeah, and I was telling um one of my sisters and she goes what I was telling her that, um, you know, while I was backslid and the husband that I married, that was addicted.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: The first time that we were intimate in the room I was backslid.
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: Obviously I hadn't attended church for about five years and I remember waking up speaking in tongues and it was like maybe a supernatural thing that happened because I had dream that I or I don't know if I dream or seen or whatever but I seen a demon just coming down my hallway and it was just times where god just was Like that shame was so much there that like that door was closed.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: And I don't know why it was I haven't figured out that why it was closed, other than that I hadn't told anybody.
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know, but you know.
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: Through all that, eventually, as life went on, I started to drink socially and it just became more and more and more and more.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: And at this time you didn't drink because he had the problem.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Right, right.
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: So after I had divorced and everything and you know, became an insurance broker and everything, and I thought, oh well, you know, this is my time to be social and you know, and you know, just meet people and you know business, more, career minded things that was my goal and stuff and drink socially.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: I began to drink socially and I had a couple of relationships, but I knew that there was still something going on because I had, I had, I was in a relationship and I started to drink so heavily that he, you know, end up me that, um, when I would drink that I would cry like a little girl and it was, it was still there did you drink?
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: did you black out when you drank?
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, when he told you that, was that a surprise to you?
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: No, I knew that I was drinking to check out no, but I mean, did you know that you were crying like a little girl when he had said that to you?
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: So you were blacked out and that was happening.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he specifically would say that I would say that nobody loves me.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, wow, so did he leave.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: No, I left, it was me all the time.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so did he leave?
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: No, I left, it was me all the time.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: It was me all the time leaving the relationship because I just would leave and I wouldn't allow anybody to love me.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Because he did propose to me and I thought, why am I going to do this again?
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: I've already been married twice, you know, and so, yeah, do you know what intrusive thoughts are?
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Have you ever been able to recognize them?
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: Like you mean thoughts that are not normal Right and that are really not our own Right.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: I didn't at first, I didn't until right before I came back to God, back to church.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, okay.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: I learned to push those thoughts out and I knew that that's not from God.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Right, right, I was just going to ask you something.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: I forgot what it was, but keep going, I'll come back to you.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: So you know, after all that, you know I, you know, there I was working and making good money and everything to me seems like it's OK.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: But I knew that people would tell me we're too married, like wait, how come that didn't work out?
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: And I just was like, oh, I don't know.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: But I began to just drink so much more, to the point where I'm drinking more than I'm eating and it's like hard liquor vodka with nothing, just straight and I'm just checking out.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: And then at some point, instead of going into the office and getting dressed and going to work, I became a broker and started to work remotely and I moved about 30 minutes away from my family and I know that's how the enemy I know now, yes, that's how the enemy comes.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: Isolation, yeah, and he comes, and it was like a, it was like an open door and, um, working remotely, you know, I would, I would order alcohol in and I was drinking, I was, I thought I was a functioning alcoholic, but I wasn't and I, um, I, I just began to become an alcoholic.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: And at this time were the thoughts of your childhood and the marriages?
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Were they on the back burner, or were they always sort of prevalent in your life?
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Because we can push them away and pretend like it never happened and not revisit it, but it's there working.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: But then there's other things that are always kind of there and they never really leave your thoughts.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: I'm just curious.
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: They would leave and they were on the back burner because I would try and focus, like on my work and just trying to make more money.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Feeling like you were accomplishing something and that was behind you.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Right, and at that time, too, my daughter had gotten married and she had married a really nice guy and she was okay with my grandkids and he was a great dad to them.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: And during prior to all this, when, when she didn't have him, I was, I was always like trying to help.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: You know that that's where I felt like I belonged with the grandkids and and then when she got married, I it just shifted for me, Like I felt, felt like what am I going to do now?
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: and that's when a lot of the drinking happened so you lost your purpose somewhat yeah yeah, okay, did you have had throughout, you know, all those dark days?
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: yeah, I thought I would see things like shadows.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: Um, I didn't really hear anything other than the thoughts that were going in my head about, like you know you're alone, nobody, you know, nobody cares.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: Um, if you were to die, nobody, you know, everybody's on with their life, you wouldn't matter, right and um, but the only like demonic uh thing that kind of sticks out is a last relationship.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Right before I was, I came to the Lord.
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: I was in a relationship and I decided and I was.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: So I was so addicted to alcohol during that relationship.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: It was really, really bad, but it was so bad that I thought I have to, I have to do something.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: I never thought like I need to.
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: I tried to do like AA and I didn't want to do that.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: Um, I felt like why yeah, because I I went in and I heard their stories and, um, you know, I was like what I've never done.
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: That you know yeah and I was in denial, yeah, yeah.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: And so I was like no, well, I'll figure this all out myself, like that's.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: I've never done that, you know.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I was in denial, yeah, yeah.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: And so I was like, no, well, I'll figure this all out myself, like that's what I had been doing my whole life.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: I'll figure this out and nobody knows, and I can just act like nothing has happened.
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: But it was like the chains of hell had me with that alcohol and I began to go to church and I was like I need to get free from this.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: Like I'm literally drinking more than I'm eating.
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: I didn't even want to eat anymore.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: I was to the point where I had pain on my side and I would drink for the pain to go away.
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: That's the insanity.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: So you would have been waking up in the morning drinking then you would have been very dependent on alcohol, physically dependent on it.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was in the middle of the night.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: I had alcohol on my bedside instead of water.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Just to keep yourself from going through a draw.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: No.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Just to drink.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: Just to have that feeling of out of here, Okay, I was just wanting to, I don't know, I wanted to check out, yeah.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: And so that's when it got really bad, and that's when I decided I need to go to church, because I know I can't.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: I could always like figure things out, but not this time.
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: I couldn't figure it out and I couldn't stop but not this time.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: I couldn't figure it out and I couldn't stop.
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: And you, you at this point, didn't have a desire to commit suicide.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Um, I just had those thoughts Like if I wasn't here, yeah, yeah, I had those thoughts all the time but I mean cause I would have thought you know you're starting now to think about going back to church instead of thinking about checking out again.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like I wanted to save myself, Like you got to get over here because there's you can't do this.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Well, that's good.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: That had to be the Lord, right.
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I started to go to church.
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: But here's what I think about people that are addicted, because I remember going to church and this had never you know, I had never went through this but I remember going to church and it was so good and it was like God was speaking to me and I would go to the altar and I just so wanted to stay in his presence.
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, I was thinking, as soon as I get out of here, I'm going to drink vodka.
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: And it was like a struggle between my flesh and my wanting the Lord, and I would cry at the altar and think, knowing what I was going to do.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: And so now, when I go to church, when I see people and I can see the desperation and the hopelessness, because I felt hopeless, so hopeless, and I started to go to church and do all that.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, I was in a relationship with someone and we were living together.
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: And then I decided I'm going to sleep in the other room, like I really wanted to not drink, not drink anymore.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: I wanted to go to church.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: I really was afraid of why I couldn't stop drinking and it scared me.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: It scared me because I felt like I had no control over it and I thought, well, you know, in the past, brother Eli Hernandez had spoke over me, and so I I decided, well, I'm going to look him up on YouTube and I decided to, um, listen to him and I would cry and I would just listen to, you know, his preaching in and I would ask God to heal my mind.
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: Um, because I did have those thoughts, yeah, and I remember one night crying out to god in the room and my, my ex-boyfriend, was like in another room and I was crying out to god and I said, god, just please do surgery on my mind, because I just can't do this anymore.
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: And I had picked a video on youtube and I was trying to look for the longest one because I wanted to fall asleep and I wanted, I thought, maybe my consciousness will pick up and God will heal my mind.
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: And I seen a video and it was seven hours long and I thought I'm going to pick this one and I put it on and I said that prayer and I cried out to God and I fell asleep.
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: Well, about two or three in the morning I woke up because I heard brother Eli Hernandez preaching and all he said was right now.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: I don't know who he was praying for, but he said right now, god's going to do surgery on you, on your mind.
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: Wow, you're exactly right, yes.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: And I woke up and I heard that and I don't remember anything else and I fell asleep.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: Up and I heard that and I don't remember anything else, and I fell asleep and I know it was God.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: It was just so real to me and it began, uh, little by little.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: It was the word of God yeah it was the word.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: It wasn't me at church, it was the word of God.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: It was there in just me and him.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: It was the word of God.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: And from there I began to listen to Bonnie Marshall.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: And I began to listen to Bonnie Marshall and I began to listen to all her podcasts about your brain and how you know there's these pathways in your brain, and I began to relate it like she does relate it to the Bible.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: And you know, so man think is so he is right.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: And, um, I began to notice that god began to heal me.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in my mind yeah, yeah, so were you at that point did?
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Had you stopped drinking, were you still struggling, but drinking less?
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: I had.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: I had, I was still drinking.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: I made, made a choice in my mind Today's the day and I just did it like that and I thought, well, I'm just going to say today's the day and I did, I stopped drinking and it was just a miracle from God because I didn't have withdrawals.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the Lord, because you should have.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: I should have, because I mean, when you're drinking a bottle of vodka like nothing, and it was just every day.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: There wasn't a day that I wasn't drinking and it was just so much.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: But when you were asking me about the demonic, when I decided to separate and say, okay, I'm going to go to church and the relationship's going to stop, and all that I distinctly remember because at night I would lock my door, my bedroom, and he in my bedroom and he's in his room, and he knew he respected that and we were.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: You know, I was going to church and he had visited a couple of times, but I had really made in my mind that this is I need to do this.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: And he was kind of worried, wondering about is the relationship going to still?
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: You know, we're still going to go to church and be a couple or whatever, and I knew that, that everything had to you know, yeah, change.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: And uh, that night I locked the door and I fell asleep.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: And when I fell asleep I thought, oh my goodness, he came inside the room because something was on me and physically I could feel the demonic pressing on me on my back and I could feel even a man's anatomy, and it didn't want to let go.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: It didn't want to let go until I began.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: I couldn't even speak, I couldn't move.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: And I had to pray inside and call on Jesus and the moment that I did, it left.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: And the door was still locked.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, those encounters are very, very real.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Um, they're very, very real people.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: I won't get graphic, but yeah, very real.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: And you said that happened after you decided you were gonna quit and I voiced it out loud?
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: Were you voicing it to god?
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Were you speaking it into the atmosphere?
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: Were you voicing it to the enemy?
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: I was telling um my ex-boyfriend okay this is what's going to happen.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: I told god as well.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: I prayed it out loud um yeah how long ago was that christine?
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: Um, maybe a year and a half ago.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: And so from there, you just started going to church.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, you were going to church, but what began to evolve from there.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: And also, too, I had talked to my brother and I had went over to his house and that night prior to that happening, the night before me and my brother, he said, let's pray about this, that this is going to all end.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: And we had said a prayer or two.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: Oh, good.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: So, um, and then the next, oh well, yeah, the next day that had happened.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: But after that, um, you know, um, at that time it was brother Phillips and um, you know, he had said, he had told me don't let your good be spoken evil of, you know, still continue to live with someone, even though you know you were, you were not, you know, together, together, yeah, and from there I just, I just know that God healed me, he healed my mind.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: I didn't have any withdrawals.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: Which was amazing because at that point I did check into.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: Well, they wanted me to.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: They wanted me to do an in-house treatment Like a residential yeah.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: Who's?
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: They, kaiser, my Treatment At your residential yeah.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: Who's they?
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: Uh, kaiser, my insurance, yeah.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: So they had did an assessment on things that affect your life and they said you need to check in.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: And at that point I still said no, I have a job, I don't want to check in and I can do this.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: And so I did an extensive um outpatient out intensive um outpatient, outpatient like an eight week um outpatient and did that help.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: Do you feel like, um, what did you learn from the outpatient treatment?
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: Um, I felt like they helped in a way, like just effects, like they would have me take my shoes off and get grounded and stuff like that.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: But it was nothing compared to what god did, because god just, I mean it just and I couldn't stop drinking either, right?
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: so yeah, good, um, I was gonna ask you something.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: So many things in what you were saying I wanted to ask questions about.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: So you broke up with the guy.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: That probably sidelined him a little bit, right, because really it had nothing to do with him.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: Well, during that relationship, he was another person that was addicted, and so I was in another relationship.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: I was just doing the same thing over and I was just like upset with myself Not upset, but I was just defeated Like I was.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: Repeating patterns, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: So, when God healed your mind, what have you noticed since?
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: What have you noticed from how your thoughts worked to how they are now?
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: What's changed for you?
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: Well, one thing, and I talked to one of the sisters at the church.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: One thing was I literally seen colors, different.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, interesting, talk about that a little more.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: It just seemed more clearer, it seemed more vibrant.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: The colors, wow.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: And you noticed, yes, very interesting.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: I noticed that and then, like the enemy did try to come back and say something.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: You know those thoughts, but I knew immediately that's not from God.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: I know exactly what that is.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: So you were able to discern that much quicker than what you could have or did before.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I also too.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: I mean for work.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: I always was confident I could go up in front of a crowd and do that.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: But really the core of me wasn't because of the relationships that I was having, but through God I was able to recognize what was going on.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: All the time.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: Those thoughts, I knew they weren't from god yeah and so at what point did you begin to talk about the abuse?
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: well, um, like I said, about seven years, you know I had mentioned to my sister, you know that he did this to us and she said no, so I never really did talk about it.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: I only just recently, this last week, talked to three of my sisters and we talked about it and we all talked about it, and we all talked about it and I'm going to say like within a week it had.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, I at first there was just no way I could talk about it, so I I just didn't know how I was going to talk about it.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: But is he still alive?
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: Is it a he?
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: yeah, it's a he and he.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: He passed away okay yeah, he passed away is it someone different than who abused your brother?
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: Someone different man.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: It's so unfortunate.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: And then you know, when you were a kid and that happens at such a young age you don't know how to differentiate your own identity versus the one the enemy tries to give to you.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: And so, as a kid, there is no way to fight back, there's no resistance, there's no understanding, so we just absorb whatever the enemy tries to place on us, right, and we believe that.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: That's so true, yeah Well, so you've been back for a year and a half I've actually um been back for about two, two and a half years yeah two and a half years so so how do you feel like?
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: I know that's such a simplistic, obvious question.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, I feel great, but what do you feel like god is doing in you?
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: Where do you feel like god is leading you?
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: And what do you feel about your future Like?
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: What are you looking towards?
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: At this stage of your life.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like a calling for people that have been addicted, that hopelessness or have gone through trauma, because the first year when I did come to church, I would just randomly call my sister and say the devil's a liar.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: And that was like my whole thing for the first year because in my mind whenever anything came I was like that's a lie, you know, and so we would kind of joke and I would call her and say the devil's a liar, and we would do.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: I did that for like a year, but then I found myself visiting homeless people or going out into the streets and and reaching out to people, young girls and um.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: Like I felt that was my calling and can I continue to feel that way?
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: At our church we have um ladies that come from the shelter, mothering Heights.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: I can connect with them.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so needful because I think there is a hunger for God, but people don't always know how to bridge that gap.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Or, okay, I go to church.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Now what I mean?
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: We recently had some new people come in and you know like they're just brand new, they don't know anything and they don't know what the bible is about, how, and then they look at you and they're like, oh not, you like you haven't been through anything or whatever.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: And I was, yeah.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 3: So I was just at a gas station and I was on my way to church and I was running late and I said, oh, I got to get, you know, at least $10 and, you know, to get to church, to exit her.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: And I was just in a rush and as I'm parking, there's another car, you know, facing me and I can hear them say excuse me, excuse me, and I'm like trying to ignore them because I'm in a rush and so I'm rushing and it's like the Holy Ghost stopped me as soon as I was passing and I said yes, and she said, you know, she started to tell me that you know she was stuck there, she didn't have any gas money, she had all the kids in the car and you know I was.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: I was telling her, okay, do you have venmo?
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: And I was going to give her ten dollars or something.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: Just, you know, and um, the reason I'm saying this is because you know I didn't share with you a part of the past of prior to coming to church.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: I had got in trouble and I had an ankle bracelet and I had DUIs and so I had got, you know, saved from a lot of stuff.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: So when I seen this lady and she was probably just looking at me like I'm on my way to church with my hair done and my skirt and all this, and while I'm talking to her I have a breathalyzer in my car oh and it goes off and I go hold on a second and I'm blowing in my breathalyzer and she's looking at me like what yeah
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: and I told her, yeah, god changed my life.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: Wow, I said, and I was like God changed my life.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: I know you're looking at me like I'm just and she just started crying in her car.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we exchanged numbers and I text her and hopefully she'll come to the Lord.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: But it's just amazing that, you know, some people think that you haven't experienced.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, the first year when I went to church I had an ankle bracelet on my and.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: But you know they don't realize.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: And we just see the outward appearance.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: Right, and we do need to talk about the goodness and the miracles, the miracles of what God does and his word, and how it becomes alive and it just becomes so alive and it's just the word of God that really, really does it.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: I mean the Bible.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's the best kept secret.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: There's so much treasure there if we just will read it.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: How many DUIs did you have?
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: Well, I had, it was in one year.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: I got three in one year.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: In one year.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: So you were looking at some prison time yeah, had never been in trouble with the law, um, never and boy.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: When they start, it just stacks up.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: I had two, once when I was 18, the second one when I was 21.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: And it took years to get out.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: The laws were much different back then than they are now.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: They're way worse now it all happened in one year.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: But I love what you said because we don't know.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, every story someone shares, every story someone shares.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: I just think, man, we are so accustomed to just looking on the outside at people and never really knowing them, never taking the time to talk or get to know them or know what God's done in their life.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: But I think being alive Christine is a miracle.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: I think being alive Christine is a miracle.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: Like you know, the devil could have taken you out in any of those times you know suicide attempts, domestic violence, dui.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: I mean the devil could have taken you out and wanted to do all of that and God, in his mercy, had his hand on you.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's because he's got a plan for you.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: I think he has a plan for all of us, you know.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: So I think that's wonderful.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: We do sort of have a passion for the people that are where we used to live right.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: I heard someone say we used to live right.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: Or I heard someone say, um, I think a lot of pastors, preachers say it that your ministry is going to be in the place god delivered you from, so he saves you from cancer.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: Your ministry is going to be to people with cancer right, it saves you from homelessness.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: Your ministry is going to be to those people because you can identify, you can relate and you can testify that God's big enough to take you out of that.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: And things don't surprise me too when they say things I'm like, okay, right.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not faced.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: So do you feel like this is the first time in your life that it's really been real for you, or deep within you, or yeah, okay, that braveness that I did when I was a little girl, I feel that boldness now for Jesus.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's where it's at.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: And your family, god's really doing a work in all of your family.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's doing a work in all of us, in our whole family.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's doing a work in all of us, in our whole family?
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah Right, all of the siblings, kids, grandkids.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: So what would you say?
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: I always end with this.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: What would you say to the backslider that's still out there, that, you know, has pride, doesn't want to do all the things, doesn't want to?
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: You know, don't think they may need church.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: Or you know, I think there's a cornucopia of reasons why people don't want to come back to church I'm going to say church because I think there's a lot of people that love the lord.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: They don't want to come to church.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: What would you say to those people?
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: I would say that the devil is a liar.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: That's the number one thing I say.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: Think that louder.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: The devil is a liar.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: That's the number one thing, and also, too, that God didn't come to condemn.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: No, he didn't.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 3: He came to save.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: He came to save.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: I love that because that's what they feel, but that is a lie from the enemy.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: And that was the lie that I believed, and I thought, oh, I made a lot of wrong choices.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: I did that and then I felt so unworthy, but God never condemned me, even though I had, you know, my thoughts or whatever about the church.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: God never condemned me.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: And he saved me.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: That's really good.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he does love us in ways we can't fathom.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he does love us in ways we can't fathom.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: But if we can somehow start to question, what is it that I really believe?
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: Where are these beliefs even coming from?
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: Could God really be good like everybody says?
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: He is, like everybody sings about?
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: Could God really be good?
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he is.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: He is.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: He's better, he is, he is.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: And now I see everything.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: When I'm thinking, and I'm looking and I'm hearing, I'm like God's working over here.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: And then he's working over here, right.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: And he's putting everything together and it's so exciting.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: And when I meet people that are struggling, I always tell them God is calling you.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, Because you didn't recognize it, but God is calling you.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: And he was there with you through all of it, he was there.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: We just can't always see him.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: But we look back and in my own life I'm thinking oh my word, I could have died here.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: I could have died here.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: I could have died here.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: You know, the Lord just had divine protection.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: I know, I know and I, you know, I kind of like, oh, should I say what's happening?
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: And there's a lot of things that I missed out, and you know that I didn't, but that would probably be for you know, somebody else or something.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, you can say it, yeah somebody else or something, but oh, you can say it.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, say it because it's hard to tell our life story in an hour and a half.
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it, it's hard and, um, some of the people that I've interviewed before they're like I want to come back.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: There's so much I left out and you know, because there is nerves, you do get nervous, but no, if there is something um yeah, please say it, yeah only that, you know, even at those times, because there was a lot of times when I wanted to do what I'm supposed to do, I mean for god, right for myself and for my life, and every time it seemed like I did, the enemy came and stole it from me.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 3: Because there was a time where I said, okay, well, this year I'm not going to drink at all.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: And I'm eight months sober and I'm just not drinking.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: And during that time I had a friend reach out to me on New Year's Eve and say, at the very last minute, come, I'm by myself, come, come, come and come over here and let's, you know, bring in the New Year's together.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: And I said, well, I'm going to be responsible, not going to drink and drive.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: I haven't drank in eight months, and OK, surely I can have one, and I've you know I can do this, drink and drive.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: I haven't drank in eight months.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: And okay, surely I can have one, and I've I've you know I can do this.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: And and I took an uber and went and um, and during that time um was only there.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: The new year was only like an hour and a half away, so it was like I wasn't going to be there long and um had a drink and, sure enough, somebody drugged my drink.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: And then something happened, and during that situation, Did you get?
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: raped, yeah, yeah.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: And during that situation I had ended up calling my sister and she came.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: And I had ended up calling my sister and she came.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize, I have like memories of things, but at the time there was also another person there that had passed away from an overdose.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: So I could have been yes, so at the same time I could have died.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: At that time, and so there was so many times that the Lord protected you, that I could have died, yeah, wow, yeah, there's.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: I mean alcohol, um, I think, especially for backsliders is just you just fall so far off of the deep end, yeah, and I think with alcohol you think, oh, that's not that bad because you know that's not like drugs, it's legal right.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: So somehow there's this faulty sense that it's not as bad as drugs.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that makes it bad, because we give ourself permission, because it's not illegal.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but God was always there and now I'm.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 3: You know I I do want to advocate for, like people that have been through trauma, and addiction and and and face those struggles.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: And when those ladies come into the church, like my heart just goes out to them because I can see, like their hopelessness, that they're trying to find out and I know that it's, you know, a lot of it.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: Sure, maybe they fell into addiction, but you know those are effects of something else.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, you know, addiction is only a byproduct.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: No, addiction is only a byproduct, Like the scripture that you said in Proverbs as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: That's sort of the foundation of cognitive behavioral therapy for me.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: That's what I use in combining the Bible with that modality.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: And it's true because everything originates in our mind.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: It's true because everything originates in our mind and our mind.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: What we think is coming from the wounds of our heart, our soul, you know whatever those wounds are.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: So when people come into church, like you did and like I did many times over the years, I loved God, I wanted, I wanted nothing more than to be everything God wanted me to be.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: I wanted, I wanted to be the girl that could wear the dresses and be in ministry and do all the things and just live in the purity, Because I just always saw it as purity.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: I never saw it as ministry or the dresses.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: I just saw what it represented and to me it represented the constant presence of the Lord.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: But I think that church culture and preachers, when they haven't experienced a lot of what life looks like on the other side the darkness, yeah, when they just grow up in church and never, ever really stray.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: It looks like we are just choosing the world.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not going to stay or I'm not going to conform because I want to just go, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: But really that isn't what it's about at all.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: It's like you said most often it's deep shame.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: I could never take the mask off because I felt too exposed.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: Because I felt too exposed, I could never not seek out attention from men because I was so alone.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: And you know that constant need for validation and you know it's just.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: Ultimately we're afraid that what we believe is true, and if it's true, then I am less than nothing and that is a hopeless little hole that you've been down.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: I've been down.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: So it's not ever really about the fact that we don't want to conform, that we don't want to be obedient.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: I think the brokenness is just so scary.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because I just didn't ever talk about it, even until this last week.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and God's going to just do so much more with that to release it and to probably give you a lot more understanding and clarity, just in the things you haven't yet addressed, because it's still so because I had been asking the lord what's the connection, you know.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: But really the connection is when the physical of being, you know, touched to the mental and then to like the spirit.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: There's a connection oh, there's a huge, huge connection and there's also transference and and you have to think about how innocent you were at three years old and four years old, you're completely innocent.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: You're the most purest thing yeah nothing is written on your life yet.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: It's just purity.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: That's why the devil tries to corrupt that as soon as he can, and so anyone that comes at kids like that.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: It's perversion, but it's so much more than that.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: I've seen situations where I mean, I personally believe that that's where homosexuality begins and where, uh, sexual confusion you know, originates from and and in the spirit realm we become one.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: When there is any kind of sexual intercourse, even if it's rape, if it's sexual abuse, if it's fornication, willingly consensual sex, or if it's adultery, in the spirit realm we become one, and so spirits transfer.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: You're joining together without your consent, without your permission, and so you're bringing that in, and the devil knows that.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: And so there is a lot that happens when children are abused.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: And I think I've heard that before that whether of course you didn't invite it, but whether it happened to you or you, you know, were younger and you decided to have sex out of marriage.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: But when it happens to you, you know you're abused, but that door becomes open, right for perversion or for those other.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: And when you're young like you were.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: You know um, you don't have any sort of conceptual understanding of what's happening, and so you can't fight it, you can't resist it, you don't know how to battle any of that.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: Just shut out my mind right there's, there's no way to understand it, and so you, you just believe it.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: You know, I've had little five-year-old kiddos tell me all kinds of stuff that they just believe it belongs to them because their brain is telling them and so, because my brain is inside of my head, it must be me like because so many people don't understand what's happening in the spirit realm.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: the devil is always speaking and the Lord is always speaking, but when there is shame and we feel like something is wrong with us, we begin to believe everything that the enemy says.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: And so he's always talking.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: And so little kiddos.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 3: They think it's you, they believe it's you, they believe in them.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah so.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: So I've had them say and do all kinds of things.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: And so then they, if they have a bad thought, if they have thoughts of violence or thoughts of all kinds of things that little kids go through, they further believe something's wrong with them.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: Because why do they think this?
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: Why why are they having this thought?
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: Why is that image going through my head?
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: They don't have any kind of understanding that that's not them, that's what the?
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: enemy is trying to place on them, so it becomes their identity, like exactly because shame is about identity and.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, and so, parents, if you got littles around and they're acting out and crying and behaving poorly, please seek help for them, because there's a lot more going on.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: It's not just bad behavior, it's not just attention seeking.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: There's a reason.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: There's a reason and we have to get to the bottom of the reason.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: If kids are manipulative at six years old and seven years old, there is a reason.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: Kids are not born to be manipulative.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: Kids are not born to be sexual.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: Kids are sexual at five and six years old's happened yes because god didn't create that.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: So I get really passionate about that because it happens so so much yeah it's the enemies.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: I feel like childhood abuse, whether it's neglect, whether it's physical, sexual or, um, mental.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: It is the devil's weapon to completely derail a life forever.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: His goal is to derail that purpose forever, and if we don't start getting curious about where we've been and where we came from, we won't be able to recognize his attack on our mind.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: So what would you say to the parent who has a kiddo out there, hasn't returned to the Lord, or a spouse or a family member who has a prodigal out there, a backslider?
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: What would you say to them?
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: I would say to give them grace, because I never even gave myself grace.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 3: And if you're not giving yourself grace, if somebody gives you grace, it's basically wanting or telling them that you care and that you want to know what is really going on.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 3: You know, and talk Jesus to them, because I it was.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 3: I I just didn't believe, I I just believed everything that the enemy was telling me.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: I believe that's what my identity was.
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 3: But I would tell um the parents to really, really focus on why kids are doing what they're doing.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: And not to just punish them.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, or ignore them or ignore them or dismiss them and say you better behave.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: And because they don't work.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: No, they'll just do it more, and you know talking Jesus to them in the wrong way doesn't work either, Because when we use Jesus as a form of punishment to kids, they're going to think that Jesus is a slave master.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: So you know what I'm saying.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not correcting you, because I think what you were saying is let them know that Jesus loves them.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: And absolutely, because no matter how far we've gone.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: But, you know Christian culture sometimes just beats people up.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: Well, you know that that's sin.
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: You know that God wouldn't be happy.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they know.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: They don't need to tell, they need to hear Most of the time.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: You know that God wouldn't be happy.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they know.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: They don't need to tell, they need to hear Right.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 3: Most of the time they know the Lord will forgive you.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: He loves you.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: Just talk to Him, right?
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for sharing your story, and I'm excited about what God is doing in your life, doing in your life and, man, I'm just excited and thankful that you made it back.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: There are people that haven't made it back and are not here with us anymore, you know, so I'm really grateful that you're here.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah well, thank you for being willing and, again, for those of you who are listening, thank you for tuning in.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of you may not know some of the guests, but I hope that as they share their story, something in there resonates with you.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: We're all human, sharing a human experience and a journey to know the Lord, so if you have a testimony or you want to reach out or you have questions, please email us.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: We just launched our website, so redeembacksliderorg, so you can email us from there, text whatever, so we look forward to hearing you.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you, have a good day.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: We are so glad you joined us.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: Visit our website at kathychastaincom.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: We hope you will tune in for our next episode.