Latest / The Elevator Careers Podcast / LIVE BROADCAST: What's at Stake for Elevator Codes in North America? ISO 8100 vs. A17.1

Transcript

LIVE BROADCAST: What's at Stake for Elevator Codes in North America? ISO 8100 vs. A17.1 · The Elevator Careers Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: Hello, and we are live.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: Hopefully everyone's uh hearing us.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I'm Matt Alred, your host, and today we have three guests Don Gelastino, John Koshak, and David Guerin.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: Gentlemen, welcome to the show.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having us.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm excited to uh to have this conversation.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, we're uh we're discussing a very interesting and unique topic.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_04: And honestly, I've only become aware of it in the last few months.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I know that John and David have both recently published an article on Elevator World, so I'll invite all listeners to uh to check out the latest edition of Elevator World.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I do want to say up front that because this is such a big topic, um, we're not gonna be able to address all that we've prepared, even, or even all audience questions.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we will do our best.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_04: And uh in that regard, we're open to to doing you know some future uh conversations, live streams, episodes, whatever we need to do to have some more of these.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um but we do invite questions and uh look forward to to having uh listeners you know pose questions as they come up or or thoughts or comments, whatever you you uh feel.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: So uh let's uh let's go ahead and and dive in.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_04: And uh the first question I just want to start with is uh what is happening?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: You know, why now and uh why should elevator companies and suppliers pay attention?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um John, you want to start with that one?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um first off a little background.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm on the A17 Standards Committee, currently a corresponding member on the ISO committee, but I was a traveling member of that committee for several years during my Tissincrop days.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: And what's not happening now is rather than coming up with a global consensus code, which was the original purpose of the committee, we've now seen that the European codes have been cut and pasted over into the ISO codes, which means in real terms, there's a performance-based code that is being proffered to the the world as a global code.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that is contra to a more prescriptive code that ASME A17 B44 is, and that has ramifications with regard to uh product and safety, in my in my view.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: For sure.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: Can you help just just for this and define a little bit more about performance versus prescriptive?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: Because obviously there's very specific meanings behind those words.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um a prescriptive code would say um a tow guard must be made of metal and it must be 48 inches long and a 70-degree kickback and must withstand 150 pounds of force.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, very precise.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: So it prescribes the materials, the strengths, and the performance required, or it assumes the performance required based on the prescriptions.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: A performance code says put something there that will resist somebody pushing it at 150 pounds or what other number you may use, and it could be made of anything in the judgment of whoever does a risk assessment and gains notified body approval.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: So instead of instead of being very precise about here's what it exactly what it needs to do it or or be, it's a it's more like, hey, if if it works, use it.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: Is that correct?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Is that yeah, it but it relies on two things that are key to the discussion.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: It relies on a risk assessment performed by the company, the manufacturer, and it relies on the j the sound engineering judgment of the members of that design team.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's no consensus with industry or owners or anybody, it's simply the manufacturer.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: The manufacturer says, I I think this works, and if he gets a notified body to agree to it, it's gonna be the product.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: So sound judgment and risk assessment are key.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, but it's but it's the same group that's designing it, selling it, and giving the sound judgment for it.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: Is that correct?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: Correct.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: Fascinating.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I'm curious, uh, and maybe David, you can speak to this.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: How how long has this been effort been been underway?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I would say I've been thinking about it for a few years now.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if, you know, if you're talking about I don't know about the the EN thing, I mean how long that's been in progression, but you know, it's certainly like I what I want to say initially is that ASME has the best codes and the best engineers to help produce the codes.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: The the problem I see is that we don't have any uh we don't have any architecture uh for the codes.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no there's no baseline, uh there's no floor for for the for the whole country.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the problem that I'm I run into, and probably like John and other consultants that go around and you know there's there's uh no compliance, you know, the the the use of outdated codes, you know.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then clarify you're saying in in the US currently there's there's um some there's there's jurisdictions that are that are way behind.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So way, way behind.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then they have they might have they might have their own uh version of the code.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: They might adopt like the 2013 with addendums, you know, or they write their own, they write their own code and then they they pull from uh ASME.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess what I want to say is that ASME has the best engineers, has a hundred years of like really good codes now.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I grew up in I grew up in Ireland with a just Jersey accent, trust me.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I go to Ireland every year, and then I go to other countries, and I I travel throughout Europe, and you know, it's it's just much different, you know, like the lot of different reasons, you know, like life safety, fire service, you know, maybe it's required, maybe it's not, you know, uh, you know, ventilation, even ventilation in the camp.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was in a visa, Spain uh this year, you know, in that beautiful hotel resort.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there's there's no there's no exhaust van.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's 100 degrees also.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: They got they got vents, there's no vents on the you know, like our elevators, we have ventilation built into the cams.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: We have an exhaust van, you know, to pull and suck the air out, you know.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully you don't hopefully you don't asphyxicate.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: But like if you were stuck in an elevator for a few hours in a visa spain during the midday, I don't know.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean there's there's just different, there's just different um, you know, I mean, they just got different codes than we do.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're very specific, and you know, if we see something wrong, uh or uh inspectors see something wrong, he'll he'll he'll write for clarification.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have we have the only thing we don't have is a federal floor.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have a federal floor for our equipment, so our our the safety is based on the zip code that you live in.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So so hence is the consistency, is what I'm hearing.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, throughout the whole United States.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some some jurisdictions are are uh are way above a floor, and some jurisdictions they don't even have a program, or you know, not much of a program.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll let I'll let somebody else talk.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So no, you're good.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: So Don, I want to just ask you, you know, from your perspective, what what concerns you most about the direction you feel like this this may be heading?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I come, you know, I'm more of a the field type person, running running men, running teams, and and you know, elevator service companies.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So a couple of different things.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I'm I'm really for learning the best practices around around the world, you know, but codes, in my opinion, they don't uh exist in a vacuum.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: They develop around culture, laws, buildings, and emergency response systems.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and different countries have their own ecosystem, right?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we in the United States um have, you know, like I I really agree with Dave.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think the uh A17 and Angie and the whole group over there are one of the best globally, and we're very lucky in our time to have where we are at with some of those codes.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the thought of you know changing or implementing to to me that sounds like if tomorrow, you know, somebody was gonna say, all right, everybody has to speak another language, and we don't know what that language is yet, but we're gonna operate that way soon, uh, very scary for someone like me.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I come down to a few different things.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I bid a lot of jobs, and you know, everybody's always looking to get the best price.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And hypothetical, right now, if we were to have adapted this kind of standard, um, just like John was saying, you know, a company can come, they could be the cook, the bottle washer, the judge, the jury, put this thing together.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: It could be the cheapest price product, so everybody's gonna want to buy it, and we're gonna find ourselves in a different culture than what we know today as the United States.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you, I wrap my head around the concept that the United States has developed very specific expectations around accessibility.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if we move more towards the global standard, I just wonder, number one, how those requirements are actually protected.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and, you know, just being more of a New York type of person, uh, you know, I started in the business in New York in 1986, and I've been through Hurricane Sandy, Hurricane Irene, 9-11, plenty of other crazy stuff.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what I've what I feel is our first responders and our firefighters operate and train around systems developed here in the United States.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they uh, you know, there's a reason why our codes have adapted a 3,500-pound stretcher code because maybe first responders and through different different governing bodies have they've already recognized that it's not that easy to carry a stretcher up and down six or seven flights, god forbid more, right?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we've as a society already already went through all the motions to recognize and implement certain standards that we as a society I feel we need just to function the way we do.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm very um sympathetic to, you know, I talked to a gentleman that had like a brownstone and but it was multifamily, and they wanted to put a little elevator, like a ruler, but then they're like, no, it can't be a ruler, it has to run without a key, we all got to use it.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I said, eh, that's not real.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's like sounds real, but it's not real, and there's reasons why.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sympathetic to that concept, but also I am very sympathetic to the reality of where we've come from as a society, and you know, that's so that's kind of my take on it from like an elevated guy's perspective.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm more about learning from the best safety practices around the world, um, and maybe learning from this concept of harmonization, but I don't I don't personally know if in my life we'll actually see something like this happen.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I rem I'll just say one more thing that kind of makes me laugh.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I remember being in high school, which is I'm 58 years old now, so that was a long time ago.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we were talking about the standard system and the metric system, and we were gonna all become the metric system, and I see now at 58, it's still not that way.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if implementing things like that happens so fast, but I do think this needs everybody's attention on it, and I think small elevator companies, uh mostly independents, I don't even know if they understand the magnitude and the severity of what we're talking about here, and that's why podcasts like this are great, and people like Dave and John, way above my grade grade, their knowledge is so valuable that um, you know, I think this is a key podcast power industry right now.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, thank you.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, and I appreciate that.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_04: So let's let's get a little more specific.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: John, which ISO 8100 parts are actually in play and how how do they relate to you had mentioned the the European EN81 historically, and I heard you say copy and paste.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe that's so maybe that's the answer to that part of it, but which uh which parts are actually in play?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_04: What are we talking about?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: So uh just to clarify, was EN81-1 and 2 became EN81 2050, and then through the VANA agreement, which is a European construct, ISO copied 81 EN81 20 and 50, and they became 8100 part one and part two, and then there have been some changes to 8100 part one and two with adaptations and modifications to the EN81 20 and 50.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then for the differences in North America, they created what's called EN8100 Part 3.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: So the concept is they recognize that they don't have maintenance, they don't have our societal constraints and our building code requirements and our NFA fire requirements.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: They just do things differently.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: So part three of 8100 was supposed to detail how they handle that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: And what's interesting to me is, and Don touched on it, the the cultural societal values.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: If you go to England, for instance, they don't have fire recall.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: They have a fire brigade, and people in the building have buckets and they answer fire calls first while they call the fire brigade to, you know, to come help.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: What and we don't do that.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: We make the elevators perform so that the firefighters have a good idea.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: You said people in the building.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: Does that mean if I'm a business owner, I'm in charge of fighting my own fire with with me and my secretary and and team with buckets and and then I Okay, yeah, that is a little culturally different, right?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: I I never thought that.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't have thought it either until I was in England and they told me that's how it works.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it might have changed in 20 years because it's been 20 years since I was on traveling with ISO.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: But nonetheless, they had 20 years to say, let's add fire recall to 8100, and they didn't.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So to me, the cultural things carry on, and and that's important because the people who control modifying and changing and updating 8100 are gonna be the companies.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like ASME where you have consensus from inspectors, consultants, manufacturers, it's it's all the major companies.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: And so there's furthermore, ISO it's not as as balanced as it sounds as as a group that's gonna decide some of this, it's more like just the manufacturers that are approving their own design.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: By virtue of the voting, which you'd have so on ISO you have P members, voting members, and other members, but there are essentially thirteen voting members, and they're all company people.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: So if I were to suggest a proposed change, it would have to go through thirteen major company people to say, yeah, we'll we'll make that change, we'll change the code.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: And America is one vote of thirteen.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: So for us having a code that's been around for 107 years, we we lose all control.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: And furthermore, we lose the consensus of the rest of the industry.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: So so as an a nation, we we we kind of lose the ability to to self-govern the elevator future.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: Is that kind of what you're saying?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: We lose control?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's a lot.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um so um I'm uh just just wanted to make a comment.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_04: We do have some you know live participants.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_04: I do want to encourage questions.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um there is uh I'm just gonna bring this up.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's a little bit out of scope, but I'm just gonna uh one of our listeners is saying ASME for the past five years or so has been working hard to implement A17 code into China where existing GB code is the derivative of EN.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: And he's curious.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um again, I think it's a little out of scope, but he's saying does it follow that ASME has abandoned their pursuit in China?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: Or is it is I I don't even know if you could respond to that, but um, I'm no, I'll give you my impression.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: I have a little knowledge.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: So we did go to China, and they do have their G B codes, and ASME started a China International Committee.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: I went to the inaugural committee of that group, and EN and SEN, which would be CEN, is the ASME equivalent, if you will, the managing body of that standard.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: They came over as well, they're part of the ISO team, and China was sold on going to the EN81, which included modifying some of the GB standards over there.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: And when China wanted to make some changes, they submitted them to SEN, and SEN said, sorry, you're not a member of the of the group, because this is only for European countries.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: And China kind of got miffed, and I thought ASME should jump on that and say, look, you know, you can be on our committees.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: We have started a committee.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: And China didn't and went back to pretty much we're gonna go with our own codes.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that's my understanding of it.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
• 19:09
  unknown: Okay.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: So but but because they were disallowed from and and I think it does relate a bit, even though it it's uh obviously a different side of the world.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um because it it sounds like if the US adopts this we have very little say.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: They might with China.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: The biggest Yeah, we only so it's third.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean that's that's why me and John authored uh the Tisa Act to try to uh to try to, you know, let's save, let's save it, let's save our code.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a hundred years of history, great engineering behind it, you know, factors of safety, not just it looks good to me.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like there's a lot of differences between uh between ASME and EN.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, there isn't even how it's allocated.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this country deserves to have it's in control of its own destiny, because that's what we're talking about here.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, I what I would like to implement in the FISA Act and one of the pillars is that have a national database of an elevator and an application.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And let's see, let SPS, you know, the Consumer Product Safety Commission let that let them host it.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a checkbox for every, you know, to so we know that they comply with our code.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if they comply, then they get the permit.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you shouldn't put it on the uh the AHJ.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's just wrong.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the AHJ is supposed to be handed a piece of equipment that conforms to code.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's not what's gonna happen.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's gonna go there like he's not gonna, you know, he doesn't know if this this uh if this part was uh, you know, it it it he's you know, he's it's either he's gonna accept it or he's not.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh you know, he could look at different things, but right, right.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and and yeah, I mean solutions are are uh yeah, obviously there's a lot of different routes.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: I I do want to kind of stay with a little bit just kind of defining, you know, what it is.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um so for example, proponents will argue that ISO 8100 can provide comparable safety while reducing unnecessary cost.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: What uh Don, let's go with you.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: What concerns do you have with that argument?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I again I I still look at just you know the concept that you can come up with with something that's just so out of the norm from what we're even used to dealing with and still get it signed off at some level to me.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It just it's just a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean it if if the people working on it aren't familiar with it, you know, it it could I mean safety could be a real issue.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: John, what are your thoughts on that?
• 21:57
  unknown: And and you
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to chime in with one other other idea that people also don't really think about um or even really talk about.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the the issue is everyone talks about the elevator on the day that it's installed.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: What about five, ten, fifteen years later?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's right now there's X amount of brands in the US, people become generally familiar with those.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and I do think across the globe there are some amazing material, mate, amazing manufacturers, and great technology, right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: But how many can you have coming and going built under a different code that nobody's used to and different diagnostic tools?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the question is not about the day that we install this elevator, it's also about 15 years down the road when maybe some of those companies close up.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Who's who's got the diagnostic tools?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Who can get the parts?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can an independent contractor service it?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and can a build an older, you know, change contractors even.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um John, you had some thoughts on that?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, generally, um an effort was started in in Washington making the argument that an ASMB A17 B44 elevator costs so much more than an elevator in Europe.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason is they don't have the same requirements.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: For instance, ISO 8100 doesn't have any maintenance requirements or inspection requirements.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Zero.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Zero is that correct?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_04: Just for me to get that clear, zero maintenance and zero inspection.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: So you you design something, you get it approved by a notified body, and then you provide the inspection document for that elevator or model elevator, but it's not codified anywhere.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: We're not looking at, you know, the safety, the buffer, the, you know, specifically specific things that have specific prescriptive requirements for them to be inspected.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um for instance, in America, we have to do a safety test on acceptance.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: In Europe, they certify the safety at the factory, and there is no acceptance safety test.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: So most Americans don't know that.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um the argument in Washington where it actually went to legislation and was overturned, and it's gone to IBC as well, and was denied the approval of equivalency to A17 B44.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's not comparing apples to apples.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's our codes are written because of the incidents and fatalities and injuries that have occurred in our century of of history.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: And they they basically are saying, hey, look, you know, we're smart enough now we know how not to do that, and we're just going to use risk assessment to reduce our cost.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if you look lastly at 8100 and the World Elevator Escalator Federation, whose scope is nothing other than to make ISO 8100 the law of the world, to make it the global code.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that that neglects, in my opinion, all the prescriptive work that's been done in our century.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and and it sounds like what from what you're saying, the the prescriptive work has been done because of inch incidents and accidents and things that have happened to make sure we protect the writing public, which should, in my mind, be first and foremost, is that this and and the mechanics obviously working on it, right?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's safety has got to be first.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: And and if you're saying there's no maintenance requirement and there's no inspection requirement, safety doesn't feel like it's it's very important at all.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_04: It sounds like no, we just need to sell more machines.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's all just simply done to reduce costs.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so therefore you're you're trading a reduct a reduced cost because you can manufacture globally, but it's at the dumping out of all the safety that we've improved the codes with, in my view.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: So Sure.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_04: So so talk to me a little bit about um, you know, I know one of the one of the comments you guys made in the the article in Elevator World was was an incident database.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: Does that exist anywhere?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: Is there anywhere any way to compare one standard to another and say, oh hey, X number of incidents per person per ride, is that is that even possible?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_04: David, you want to speak to that?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, some jurisdictions, most a lot mostly most jurisdictions have uh, you know, part of the permit process, or them for them to keep their license, their elevator license, it has to be you know uh inspected every year.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: But they have to uh if there's an action, usually it says an inspection certificate.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: If the action happens, they have to call a certain number.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, then but it doesn't it doesn't happen.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't happen, and then you know, and that's what I always say is like well if somebody got and you know if they were when they transfer if they were transported service, and it's not supposed to go back in service.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and then it's just I don't think there's there's no database.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no database.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Does it even exist?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way to compare.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean uh consumer product safety commission, they estimate uh an estimation of how many uh people are uh you know hurt and uh unescalators and elders, and okay, so they can guess, but okay, Don.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see, that's another that is an initiative here as a country, as a society, that we need to really tighten up.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, obviously, you know, governing jurisdictions, there's hundreds of them.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, New York, just in Long Island, you have counties and then you have towns, and then you have parts of towns, and these the inspect the inspectors, they they're doing their job in the same Department of Buildings in the five boroughs.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is everything is in a vacuum right now.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And even like um Dave said, if there's an accident in an elevator, all right, the inspection certificate says to call the local DOB.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: The local DOB, the same person that just, you know, looked at an accident in a supermarket with a food spill, is the guy looking at this elevator accident.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Highly unlikely he's an elevator expert, right?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then that data that goes into a file cabinet or now a PDF or something and sits in a drawer and nobody knows anything with it.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: We really need as a society to get those, all of that up and into one mainframe that then we can take the analytics and look at hotbeds like, hey, this part of the country, this type of elevator.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have such a big lift that we should be focusing on, but if we don't get our heads around this situation that we're talking about right now, this it'll become a bigger problem, and I hate to say it, but the way there, I don't want to use the word sneaking it in, but this is exactly how strange things happen.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because if this code change could be snuck into a document and then adapted, God forbid it got adapted, and here we are dealing with it, it can happen with plenty of other things that our our culture and our country currently has at stake.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's a lot here that people don't realize.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_04: And actually, we're getting you know some questions from our listeners.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, we asked about the database.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_04: Thomas is just saying, is there any analysis that we that we use to compare a code you know implemented on one uh one versus the other?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: Any way to kind of I think you said an estimate, but um I I I'll speak to that.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: Richie from Australia brought that up as well.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um is the answer.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Don's right.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh many jurisdictions do require, if there's an injury incident of some level, if it required a paramedic or if it required a hospital visit or that it has to be reported.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: And the incidents are getting so common.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Nevada changed the law that if you have an entrapment, you have to call uh Nevada Dosh to do an investigation.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: Oh really?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: So AHJs are you know in in high dense cities like Vegas, New York, you're you're starting to see that, hey, you know, we're we're not happy with the consistency of or the increase in incidents.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: When I was on ISO, that's the question I would ask, because that's the common sense question to ask.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, you want this EN8100, you want EN81 at all.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: How many incidents do you have?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: And everybody says, oh, there's no database.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: And the people that I would get personally friend with in Italy and Germany, they'd say, Oh, yeah, there's accidents, but we don't, we don't we don't keep a record.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well and and it was hard for me because we didn't keep a record here.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so for the last 19 years doing litigation work, I I feel like I don't want to be the the cop who says, okay, everybody I stop on the street is gonna pull a gun on me.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: But that's almost the condition I see and the the attitude I get because we have such a lack of maintenance inbred in the major company portfolios that we're seeing, I'm seeing an uptick in these incidents.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so, to answer the question broadly, there there is nothing, there's no available data that you can say we have this much and you have that much to determine which is the better code.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: But my gut feeling is ours is the better code because again, we go to risk assessment and sound engineering practice, and those are subjective items.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: And you can pick a risk assessment team that won't even identify a risk that another one would pick to mitigate.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I've been doing certification work enough to know that that that truly has happened, and I know that that happens in Europe as well.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: So sure.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_04: I mean I talked to an expert yesterday just just in regard to this, uh won't won't name any names, but um, you know, a lead a lead inspector for a certain state, and he said the same thing, right?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: That that if if it's not picked up in a risk assessment, it doesn't exist, right?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: So somebody is an oversight, and oh hey, we didn't pick up on that, then we're not gonna remediate for that because uh we didn't identify it as a risk, even if it later you know bites somebody.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, and I don't know how that that is handled, but but it does kind of lead to you know a question about and we've talked a little bit about this, right?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_04: If manufacturers get get the chance to claim equivalence through this risk assessment, uh who independently validates that?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: You said something about a notified body, I think you used the term, is that what is in Europe there are components that are required to be approved, and it's it's kind of like when a manufacturer of something in US or Canada designs something, you design it to the design code of A17 B44.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then you have to certain jurisdictions, for instance, Ontario, TSSA, are diligent in they have a list of approved products that have to be reviewed and approved by them before you can sell them.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: California still does for certain components, but it used to be Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and New York, and now we're essentially down to TSSA because that running that kind of operation is expensive.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: But those are for specific approved items, not all of them.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: In Europe, if I want to design something, I have 129 notified bodies that I can go to.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: So think of 129 ULs where I take my design and I say, you know, notified body number one, here it is, here's my risk assessment.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: And if they say no, I say, well, I think you're wrong, and then I I go over here to number two and I say, hey, I've got this risk assessment, this design, please approve it.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: He may get five no's, but he'll ultimately can get a yes.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: And with that yes becomes the ability to put a CE mark on it.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it there's no way for the number five notified body to know that four others previous said no.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so you shop around.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it it to try to eliminate the possibility of notified body shopping, when we wrote A177 in in the US, we limited it to three bodies, so that hopefully that they would intercommunicate.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then in my experience, they didn't, and now we're down to just two.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: Even with three?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_04: So you're saying 129 is it almost sounds like the lowest common denominator, right?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: If there's one out there stamping uh did validate the risk assessment to say, well, you didn't you didn't even look at this risk.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, is there is that does it happen?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: They they take the risk assessment as you wrote it, and if there's something glaringly obvious, they'll say, hey, you know, you did you didn't examine this risk.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: Part of the risk assessment process is going through the 64 global essential safety requirements.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it says things like shock hazard, flood hazard, sharp, edge hazard, electrical, um, fire.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: 64 of them.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: And you're supposed to pick all the ones that you apply.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: Your team is supposed to say this one applies, that one applies, and then some of them don't, of course, apply.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then you you assess each one of those identified GESRs.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if you don't bring it up, and the notified body or the ACO doesn't see it, because it was your job to bring them the risk assessment, then it gets overlooked.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we and we have seen that.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like that has happened, like legitimately and unfortunately, but there have been instances where things like that happen in general.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um well let's let's talk for we're gonna uh pivot just a little bit.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um obviously there's there's strong interests on both sides, right?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, who who stands to benefit the most from having essentially one standard around the world, right?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_04: Who who's just gonna push them?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more the OEMs.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't want to bust it, I don't want to make any enemies really out there, but the reality is as a as a manufacturer and you when you have the capability to mass produce or you know hire some mass producers, well, I think it's those who with the deep pockets have the most um to gain, probably, and you know, that's my opinion.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and I don't know, you know, all the the reasons.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: I have heard people say, oh, it's gonna drive down costs.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I won't name the the company or the person because I was told not to, you know, quote him.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: But but he did say to me in a in an offline conversation that he didn't anticipate any cost savings to the end user, and and the the expert I spoke with yesterday kind of said the same thing that the average American is not gonna benefit in any way from from a coaching.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_04: They wouldn't know about it.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, it'll but uh I just found that it that interesting.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, probably the only my opinion again is you know, when you start putting things on like the logistic part of this, you know, bringing things in, I don't know if the tariffs are gonna last forever or whatever, but like that anti cost, um, just our cost here in the US, transporting around locally, logistics, I think, plays a pretty good part in our um, you know, our cost.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then remember, our labor rates here and uh are the insurance rates, the labor rates, that's all driving our cost.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the product cost may be cheaper, but by the time it gets here and does it, let's say plan on opening up factories in the U.S.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: to build the stuff, which would be a strange thing, maybe Mexico or something like that.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that I don't think there will be much of a savings.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that what we're gonna see is just a change in the product.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then just like John said a few minutes ago, uh, you know, he's an expert witness and he's and he has a lot of knowledge and education and I see a lot of things.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he actually said, well, he goes out and looks at maintenance evaluations and sees that there's not much maintenance being done on elevators with our code right now that defines that you must have maintenance.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine we stamp something in where you don't have to have it, it just gives everyone even more of an excuse not to do elevated maintenance.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a big proponent of I'm a guy who I I know it's old school and getting gray beard or whatever, but the reality is I think you have to do maintenance once.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you have to see, touch, feel, smell the elevator.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's how you know.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_04: So um I just want to ask this question.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_04: If if uh you know the global manufacturers, let's say they tool once for the the ISO, um, and and John, this may be a question that you would help with.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_04: What happens to North American specialty manufacturers, independent suppliers over a cycle if they're competing um you know with with products that are you know instead of you know it's a whole a whole new code system?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: Is this one that you would uh shared?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, in general terms, not very to the granular specific component level, but during my time on ISO, we were comparing you know GB codes in China, the AS 1735 in Australia, US codes, Japanese codes, Russian, German, before they were all harmonized.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, basically every every code has a requirement for a buffer and buffer stroke and energy dissipation.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, if it's a sixteenth or thirty millimeter difference, if you're making a buffer and it doesn't comply with the 32 millimeter difference, now you've got to retool for a bigger or a shorter buffer.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: So there are ramifications that I mentioned back when NAEC 20 years ago.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um I want to go back to who benefits, and it I it's the OEMs, period.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: It it can only be them.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: Can't an elevator is not going to benefit because they don't sell anything in Europe.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: But if you can make one thing and make it either here, as Don mentioned, or ship it cheaply to get here, but again, as Don mentioned, you know, parts cost is the smallest of all the cost of installation of an elevator, you know, delivering it, getting installers, the building.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: So they'll benefit because they're essentially going to try to put Minnesota and Canton and other, you know, picking an elevator out of business.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um less competition, period.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I'll chime in with that because the reality is, remember, the labor laws and the package that is provided to workers and workforces outside of the U.S., we will always, it isn't like there's other societies out there making a lot more money and labor rates are higher than the US, right?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody can come in with their product at a cheaper price, but our workforce here that's paid pretty well, they're not going to retool and try to manufacture and then sell everywhere overseas and grow that way.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we're really handicapped in this in this whole environment of this concept.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: So so I'm hearing you say that, yeah, it would put uh uh at risk, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh possibly put some of these US companies out of business because hey, you change the roles.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, how long does it take to change the rules?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um I do have one comment here.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_04: The end user being the writing public, he says, reaps the reward of lower if non existent maintenance and testing requirement.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_04: I don't see, I don't um let me read it again.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: The end user being the writing public is the one that reaps the reward of lower if not non existent maintenance.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't necessarily.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: Agree with that, but uh I don't see that I don't think there's a reward for not getting maintenance other than getting your finger cut off in the elevator.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_04: But um, David, you want to respond to that?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't know, I don't know what to say about that that particular comment, but uh uh no, I I don't have anything to add to that one.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, but I I mean to me uh to me I think a lot of things would help would you know John and I did write an act for Visa, right?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: So a national if we had a national database, even a even an initial application nationally, so like you know, you could they can check all the boxes, and then and then that whatever that uh the unit number is or the elevator, that would be followed from you know uh permit to to end use.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then all the maintenance records would would you know follow through that inspection records, you know, and then if and then if and then we would know what what's installed, like natural, you know, and then have some accountability, and then maybe even try to you know have uh the registration for each every elevator escalator in the national database and monitor maintenance and histories of accidents.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I I think it's just uh you get to treat elevators like they are.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're you know, they're safety sensitive, especially escalators.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I've I've seen way too many elevator, I mean, elevator accidents, escalator, a lot of escalator accidents.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think um I think the public deserves it.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even me, I go through the airports, I'm always traveling, and you know, I go through the airports, I see missing combate, um, you know, broken comb teeth and and slipping handrails, and I'm like, yeah, you know, it's just from you know, I can't even ride an elevator without diagnosing it.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you know, oh, there's a roller guy, but you know, it's just it's just, and I think John's probably the same way.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And Don too.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we go around and it's like, but that delayed person don't see that.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: They they push the button and it takes them to the floor.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: If it don't light up, okay.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: But like me, you know, these fellas and me, you know, well, John and I, we see a lot of accidents.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm sure he does and I do, and in conditions where, and then you worry about the safety of the public.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like escalators will eat you up.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they get missing, you know, they get bad rollers, you know, they get entrapments, you know.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: What how many thousands of kids have to get hurt before there's something done with the with foot entrapments?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, you know, and there's been a lot of issues with uh recalls, but they won't get involved when something tragic happens, like the kids in the doors, you know, with the with the home elevators.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And the home elevators is another mess because a lot of jurisdictions don't require permits.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't even know what they're getting.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what I keep saying is we gotta have a national database, we've got to have a national permit process, we gotta know what's coming into our country and say no to it if it doesn't apply.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, simple as that.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: But but John knows and I know even even suspension means, you know, we we we have factors of safety with our machines, with our gear boxes, you know, there's factors of safety involved.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the case over there, like John pointed out.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I think honestly, you know, uh I I we wrote an Act Both Visa, it was at the beginning of the podcast.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend everybody listen to it, makes sense, contact your congressman.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, or Senator, we need to push this through to get some, you know, to and and also to protect ASME and and and kind of have a floor for the country as far as who can inspect our elevators.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: They have to have a certification, QEI, whichever one of the three they have, you know, but we have to have standards.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, there's there's there's other states here that they don't even require a QEI.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, well, you know, and that's you gotta know, you gotta know what you're looking at, you know, even with the inspectors and even with the mechanics.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Mechanics don't need to be licensed.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: They need we need to know that they went through a training program and they were trained by a mechanic.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and they got it, and they gotta know safety.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: They gotta know safety for the public too.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, I've been facilitating a training program for 21 years, you know, and it all starts, you know, you gotta learn how to go.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody has to teach you, there has to be a formal process involved.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I don't know.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'll let somebody else talk about it.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think it's well said.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: I I think what honestly one of the things that's coming to mind here is you know, having this conversation really hopefully makes us more aware of you know whether it's doing proper maintenance or or you know, creating a national database, or just saying, hey, we can do better with what we've got, right?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_04: Whether it happens or not, I mean I don't I don't really have a dog in the fight as much as I hear I hear anxiety from different people.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm hearing you say, David, is and and John and Don, all of you, is we can do better with with what we've got.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: And and this seems like a an invitation to do that, right?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_04: To really, you know, let's let's make elevators the you know world classier and and safer than anywhere.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we have to protect what we have right now.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we have to protect A17, and they have to comply to A17.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to comply to EM.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's I think that's I that's what has to happen.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: So but we need we need a we need a federal floor.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we need a federal agency to jump in and say, you know, in conjunction with, but they've always said, well, you know, A7, ASME is the, you know, they're the AHJ, you know, but that's really we need a just like aviation.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Aviation 1958, they created that's what that you know, there was accidents, right?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: But how many accidents have to happen before we actually have to do something about it?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, let's let's no, that's all I'm here to do is try to get something done.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, we're we're kind of getting close.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I think what I'd like to do is um I do want to I I continue to invite uh outside questions and seeing some comments, which is good.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know, stricter requirements, Lewis says, rather than the fantasy of lower cost.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um I did I did get a clarification from the gentleman earlier.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_04: He said he was being sarcastic when he said that the end user benefits from no maintenance.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_04: That makes sense.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_04: I just did not pick up on the sarcasm there.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um and uh um anyway, there's there's a gentleman saying he agrees with you, David.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_04: So um getting getting some resin resonates, uh, these things are I guess resonating with our listeners.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um why don't why don't we just go around the horn and uh you know let each of you just kind of respond to if you know if you had five minutes in front of the people who will ultimately decide the future of codes, what would you want them to understand before making that decision?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um John?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'll take it just from a quick, down and dirty perspective, because I'm not definitely not the most technical guy in this room.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, it isn't like the difference between Europe and America, it is it isn't really like ISO versus ASME.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I think we're all trying to move people safely.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the question is, you know, can we take the best ideas from around the world while still preserving regional requirements that exist for legitimate reasons, right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe we can do that at some level.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I just do I'm a big firm believer in the cultural differences are going to be what should ultimately govern uh the code.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I just uh that's my take on this.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I do have a couple questions popping in here.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, what one I guess is a comment.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Patrick's saying let's get all jurisdictions in North America on the same version of ASME, permit editions, but not the letions.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um I don't even know what what I mean it sounds like there's you know kind of everybody runs their own jurisdiction area of jurisdiction, is that how it's said that the authority having jurisdiction?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Authority having jurisdiction.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, some some jurisdictions, some states still adopt the newest latest code.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but it's not really the adoption of it, it's the implementation of it, you know, like the the whole thing with the code.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, we we gotta have maintenance on the elevators and escalators.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but some some jurisdictions are so far behind that, you know, uh or they don't have a program at all, really.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so and remember, there's a big there's a big put there's a big pushback with the idea of all getting on the same code.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it would be great if everybody knew, like, yeah, hey, this day we're all gonna be with the latest uh codes, but the reality is when you get down to the building owner who owns the elevator, the you know, getting up to code, obviously a new construction has to be a certain code.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when you're modernizing in New York, you have to meet a certain code, but it's not the latest code, right?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you were to go out and try to implement the latest code to existing building owners, those building owner organizations are gonna, you know, push back on that, saying these building owners don't get the rent increases, they don't have the money, they can't include this.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the that's the another big hurdle us as an industry have to deal with.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we're dealing with that kind of hurdle, we're dealing with financial hurdles in general, with the the interest rate right now, right?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Congestion pricing in New York.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, there is every hurdle in front of us, and this this code right now, what we're dealing with is is tremendous.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I do have a comment here that that's right along what you're saying.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_04: Mark is saying that building owners in California are fighting A17.1 2019 due to retroactive three and five-year testing.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_04: So kind of exactly what you're saying.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_04: They're they're like, yeah, we don't we don't want to pay for it, I assume is what that's saying.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_04: Is that right?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: Probably if it was free, they would do it.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, being from local late California, California never had the five-year requirement for safety testing until they did.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if I recall, 30% of the safeties didn't work when the requirement came in.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: So imagine that.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it w it came in because of earthquakes and earthquake uh adoption, code adoption.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um correct one thing, they do have safety factors for suspension, David, in Europe.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's I think an equivalent method of of determining the factor of safety for suspension ropes.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um to me, the biggest hurdle two of them when you have OEMs who produce a product that's proprietary to them, uh Ajax elevators gonna not be able to service and maintain it.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_03: So this is purely a we're we're the big gorilla, we're gonna take take the chips and we're gonna put all of our stuff in, and we're gonna take little companies like Champion and you know ASG and we're gonna wipe them out because they're they're carving into our bananas, so to speak.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: The second thing about it is in our code, we have inspection codes and we define what needs to be inspected, and we, as certified elevator inspectors, have a list to inspect things.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: And when you don't have that, how do we teach our inspectors if OEM number one just comes up with a a code compliance document or the certification and says, here's what you test on this elevator?
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: It could be anything they want.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: It could neglect you know stuff that we've done for a long time.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: Now, can some things be done safely?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: Can some things be manufactured, designed, installed safely without an inspector's oversight?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, absolutely.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: But who's making the decision?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: And who's doing the risk assessment?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_03: And to me if the sole goal is to reduce barriers to trade, which is the scope of ISO, that's its sole scope.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't say to make the world safer.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: It may somewhere, but paragraph one is the purpose of ISO is to reduce barriers to trade.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it's purely a market-driven adoption that they're in in involved in here.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, thank you.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_04: So we are just about out of time.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_04: What I want to see is I'm gonna ask one more question.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_04: I like this from from Craig who's listening in.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um in two or three words, we don't have time to expound too much, but he's saying if a convergence, uh convergence of these two codes, yes, me and ISO were to happen, knowing the vast differences, what would be your number one priority issue, you know, what what really you know are you most concerned about?
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_03: So in just two or three uh maybe sentences, SDP 72, I believe it is, is a comparison between A17 B44 and ISO 8100.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's a 90-page document.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's pointing out the differences between the two codes.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: And when you look through it, I think David did the numbers.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: You said there were 90 not referenced components in A100 that are referenced in the SME.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: Doors are something that are particularly interesting to me.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: In the US, we do UL10B testing, and in Europe they don't.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, number one, our entrances have to withstand a tremendous, tremendous amount of damage and still hold, prevent people from falling into a hoistwave, where in Europe they don't.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, as one example, and I'll let you guys go.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, David?
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean I uh like I I just think there's uh they don't have any maintenance requirements on ISO, there's a lot of problems with ISO.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, why do we want to try to adopt something that isn't up to our standards?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we already have a problem here.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a problem with all the AHJs not being on the same page.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: We we wrote we wrote this uh um uh Visa Act to have, you know, they could go through the first five years, go like three code year editions behind and then catch up.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so but that's renew installation started.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for you know existing buildings.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: But there would be, I'm sure, mandated things that, you know, maybe safety-wise, that it would be mandated that people might might have to install, but it's just the same thing.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Everything gets grandfathered.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: We accept, we keep our codes, and and they have to comply to us.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we'd have to have tested.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if they have to outside of their tests in ISO, we don't I don't think we should adopt our code.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh their code.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to have our code, and they need to make sure that they comply to our code.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we need we need to have a database that that we can reference the whole the whole unit, where it came from, what happened, and then moving forward.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh as far as going back, re-registering all the units, uh I think that could happen too.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, most a lot of jurisdictions have their own database that I'm sure they could share, but you know, you have a good a good reference on what's installed, and you know, so everybody's on the same page.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: But like you you take some home elevators, they don't even pull permits to install, you know, so in some jurisdictions.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, and commer some of the, you know, some of the AHJs, if they're you know, in a rural area, they don't they don't know what they're looking at.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they try to hire a third party, but you know, it's it shouldn't be up to the it shouldn't be up to AHJs.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: We should they should know that they're they got uh you know that they had when they pulled the permit that that unit was complying to our codes.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if it didn't, then we have a reference to say, you know, this is this is wrong, and we have uh something to go back to.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then also, like we talked about earlier, a national database.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: We have to have a national database uh for you know all the accidents that happened.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we should have in that same product that I'm talking about, having a database, MCP, did maintenance get done?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: Was there an accident?
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: What was the inspection?
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, may I don't know if we do fire testing, but you know, that's a requirement too.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: Every month you're supposed to test the fires, you know, the fire ability.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's oil usage logs, everything that's related.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that's where I come from.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I want quality, I want safety, I want a safe product for everybody to ride.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so so I don't, you know, I mean, I'm sure that there's some excellent, amazing European products.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, do they comply to our code?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: And does the unit comply, the whole unit?
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, so that that's where that it would go into an application process.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_04: Let's uh Don?
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_04: What's uh starting comments?
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'll just say it from this as an as an operator.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: You you get the issue you're gonna have is almost what Dave was saying about the residential elevators, sometimes they're not even in compliance.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you a great example.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say tomorrow the code has harmonized, right?
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: Boom, we all wake up, it's done.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we're gonna find out for the independent elevator companies is all of a sudden you're getting a set of plans with some weird size, and you're like, where did the architect get this?
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: But who cares?
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because now that's what's spec in there.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, listen, it could be an OEM, right?
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or it could be some other company, who knows?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: But right now, as an independent elevator company, when you're bidding on jobs, you're looking at shaft plans, mostly on new construction, and you're seeing, you're saying, oh, that's set up for a Kone, that's set up for a TK, that's set up for an Otis.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, I think you're gonna start seeing all different variables.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then just in general, ordering equipment, figuring out where that comes from, you're gonna be missing bid deadlines, you're gonna be missing bid dates, you're gonna be doing 10 times more work trying to figure out half of these products and items, and it's just gonna give the independent companies less of a competitive advantage.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then, let's say you already know all that, you price it up.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you, it's just, I think the reality is, is if this was implemented in the flip, you flip the switch on and we all gotta play the same game.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: I really think it's just gonna be a real issue for the independents, and it's gonna be a real issue for the smaller manufacturers.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying small manufacturers like little guys here in the U.S.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about people that we know as bigger manufacturers, packages, and stuff like that.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just not gonna be, I don't think it's gonna be very comfortable for this industry if this was to flip the switch.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say none of us all knew about this and it just happened, and we were like, oh my god, how'd they how'd that get snuck in there?
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think this country would wake up a different place in the elevator industry tomorrow.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_04: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_04: Well, gentlemen, thank you all.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate your time.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, obviously we're we're out of time, but I thank you, John, Don, and and David.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_04: This has been uh a great conversation, and uh we we've got more material, so we might have to do this again in a few months.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, appreciate y'all being here today.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning.