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David Axelrod: Democrats’ Path to Flip the Senate · Real Patriotism

0:00
What is the roadmap for Democrats to win
0:02
the midterms? That's a question a lot of
0:04
Democrats have and Republicans as well.
0:06
President Trump is down in the polls.
0:08
The Democrats feel confident, but how do
0:11
they get to control of Congress, at
0:13
least the House? Well, my guest today is
0:15
David Axelrod, a longtime leading
0:17
Democratic strategist, a man who's I've
0:20
known for a long time, and he's given a
0:21
lot of thought uh to American politics
0:24
in general and to these midterms and who
0:27
might be able to get across the finish
0:29
line for Democrats. We talk about a lot
0:32
a lot of big issues as well, the impact
0:34
of Donald Trump on our country, on our
0:37
politics, but at the end of the day,
0:38
we're going to talk about the midterm
0:40
elections. It's a fascinating
0:42
conversation. and he really knows
0:43
politics. I hope you enjoy it. If you
0:46
do, hit like and subscribe. That'll help
0:48
us. And without further ado, here's my
0:51
conversation with David Axelrod.
0:58
>> David Axelrod, great to see you. Thanks
1:00
for doing this.
1:01
>> It's good to see you, Terry. Good to be
1:02
here.
1:03
uh you're the man of the moment to talk
1:05
to, I think, given the breadth of your
1:07
experience in these tumultuous political
1:09
times, but also given the fact that that
1:12
you just talked to the person I think is
1:14
the main rival on the world stage of
1:17
Donald Trump's. And that's that's this
1:18
fellow right there, Pope Leo. And
1:22
>> yeah, I don't know if he would consider
1:24
himself a rival. I don't think that's
1:27
how he would describe himself, but he's
1:30
certainly an impactful figure. There's
1:32
no doubt about it. Yeah. And I was
1:34
>> I want to talk to you about that meeting
1:35
if I can in a moment.
1:36
>> Yeah.
1:37
>> But I first want a big picture question.
1:40
>> A lot of the people that I talk to and
1:42
that I hear from, you know, in in in my
1:45
work are Democrats who are depressed and
1:49
frightened even given the nature of the
1:51
times and the
1:53
>> the what what the president has been
1:55
doing, what President Trump's been
1:56
doing, launching wars and just changing
1:59
the nature of our government. It's kind
2:01
of why I'm sitting here and not at ABC
2:03
News because I couldn't close my eyes to
2:05
it. Um, what do you say to people, I'm
2:08
sure you hear it as well, who feel
2:10
overwhelmed and depressed at this point.
2:13
>> I understand why people feel overwhelmed
2:15
and depressed. Um, I would only say
2:17
this. Um, you know, we're marking the
2:20
250th anniversary of the Declaration of
2:22
Independence.
2:25
those events uh and our democracy at
2:29
that time was viewed as a kind of
2:31
audacious and very speculative
2:34
experiment. And it has been the case
2:37
since that moment that we have uh that
2:40
democracy has always been a battle
2:42
between uh cynicism and hope. Uh and
2:46
hope is the harder thing because
2:48
oftenimes you can't actually see through
2:51
to the positive conclusion. But what
2:54
democracy does give us are tools uh to
2:59
uh to grab the wheel of history and turn
3:01
it. And those, you know, part of what
3:04
the cynics count on is to persuade us
3:07
that those tools no longer mean
3:09
anything, that those tools uh can't
3:12
prevail. But um you know there is
3:15
something awesome and powerful when that
3:17
great wheel of democracy turns and um
3:21
and and I think it will turn and we
3:24
should be rightfully vigilant about
3:26
concerns that um you know that if
3:29
wrenches are thrown in that wheel that
3:32
perhaps it will be obstructed to the
3:34
point where it doesn't turn. But uh I I
3:37
I have I have faith that it will. And um
3:41
you know, you look at the um election
3:43
results from since 2024, they've all
3:47
been going in one way and they're
3:49
gaining momentum uh in part because the
3:52
president has uh uh defaulted on the
3:56
fundamental commitments he made to
3:57
people and he has taken things in a ter,
4:01
you know, in a direction that no one uh
4:03
could have fully predicted. Perhaps we
4:06
should have, but but um uh you know uh
4:11
every day he is conspicuously
4:14
detached from the experience of everyday
4:17
people to the point where last weekend
4:19
he was uh down in the villages in
4:22
Florida and telling uh voters down there
4:25
that uh the uh the arguments about
4:28
affordability were
4:30
>> This coming and I mean that's a quote.
4:33
uh this coming at a time when gas prices
4:36
are up over a dollar from just six or
4:40
eight weeks ago. Uh when prices for
4:44
other things are rising, there was a
4:46
really poignant piece in the New York
4:48
Times yesterday. I hope everybody has a
4:50
chance to read it about the u failure of
4:53
a dairy farm, a multi-generational dairy
4:56
farm and the the anguish that the uh
4:59
that the both the father and son who
5:01
farmed uh whose farm it was uh had gone
5:05
through the whole family uh and a lot of
5:07
it had to do with u conditions that the
5:10
president has helped create. I mean
5:12
there's been long-term challenges but
5:14
when you can't get you know when
5:16
fertilizer is unavailable or
5:19
exorbitantly expensive when your diesel
5:21
fuel has become incredibly expensive. So
5:24
these things are mounting up and um you
5:28
know don't let the cynics win is what I
5:30
would say. Don't give in to cynicism.
5:32
Grab a hold of hope and exercise your
5:35
agency because we do have agency. That's
5:38
what makes democracy so so worth
5:41
fighting for. I Terry, I'll just say
5:43
this last thing. I was at this past
5:45
weekend a um a conference uh a the
5:50
Sedona Forum that the McCain Institute
5:52
holds in uh in in Arizona. Uh, and I try
5:57
and go every year in part because as
5:59
someone who worked against John McCain
6:01
in 2008, but never lost respect for him
6:05
and became friendly with him after the
6:07
election, I thought it was important to
6:10
um signify that whatever our differences
6:13
are, there are things that unite us as
6:15
Americans that are larger than that.
6:16
There are ideals and principles that are
6:19
larger
6:20
uh than that. But one of the speakers
6:22
there was Vladimir Keramtza
6:25
who uh is u he he writes um I think he's
6:30
still writing for the Washington Post
6:31
but he's a he is a Russian democracy
6:34
fighter. He was uh imprisoned
6:38
uh uh in Russia. He was released during
6:41
the Biden administration, but he was,
6:44
you know, twice poisoned in in returning
6:47
to Russia to try and rally uh people. Uh
6:51
and um I as I was speaking, I looked in
6:54
the audience and Vladimir was sitting
6:56
there and I was thinking of what he has
6:59
gone through to bring to the people of
7:01
Russia what we have. you know, now some
7:05
may want to try and take that from us,
7:07
but we just have to be more vigilant
7:09
about hanging on to it. So, you know, uh
7:13
don't let the cynics win is what I would
7:14
say. Love that. And there there's two
7:17
things you mentioned in there that I
7:18
think uh define this political moment in
7:22
terms of President Trump. The
7:24
unexpectedness, the surprise
7:27
of his actions. He promised one thing
7:30
and he's doing another. He promised to
7:32
get on top of uh inflation and
7:34
affordability and all the rest of it and
7:36
he promised not to get into foreign
7:37
wars. And here he's done
7:39
>> done one and not the other. And and I
7:42
think that lack of of connection with
7:44
the voters when he's standing in the
7:46
villages and telling people that
7:47
affordability is BS.
7:49
>> Yes.
7:49
>> It tells you something. So here we are
7:51
year two of Trump 2 midterms a few
7:54
months away. Now
7:56
here's the thing that that sticks with
7:58
me though. Trump is historically
8:00
unpopular for him, but also he's like at
8:03
George W. Bush levels at this point
8:05
almost. And yet the Democrats are, you
8:09
know, almost barely out of the margin of
8:11
error in terms of preferences in the
8:13
midterms. How do you square that circle?
8:17
>> Well, um I I think you there are other
8:21
measures that I think are maybe more uh
8:24
significant. One is the sort of level of
8:26
enthusiasm
8:28
of uh among the both parties. You know,
8:31
Democrats are unhappy with their own
8:34
party because there is a sense among
8:37
some Democrats that the leadership of
8:39
the party has been um uh
8:43
supine in the face of uh Trump's uh
8:47
relentless assaults on democracy.
8:51
Um and and every time you ask them what
8:54
they think of the Democratic party, they
8:58
uh uh you know, some portion of
9:01
Democrats give their party a negative
9:03
rating much more so than Republicans.
9:06
Uh and so that accounts for a disparity
9:09
when you just rate the parties. in terms
9:12
of this um I don't I would rather judge
9:17
enthusiasm and what's been happening
9:20
across elections this country. I mean I
9:22
think there were think I I've I saw the
9:24
other day that 30 state legislative
9:27
special elections have been held across
9:29
the country um in uh since uh 2024 and
9:35
Democrats have won 30 out of 30.
9:37
>> Wow. Democrats are averaging
9:40
um you know doubledigit
9:43
uh gains even in elections they lose
9:46
double digit gains uh you know from 11
9:50
to 15%
9:52
uh on the average um uh in uh over what
9:57
Kla Harris got in 2024.
10:02
Um and so you know these are all signs
10:06
that uh you know Democrats should be if
10:11
if everything's on the natural Democrats
10:13
should have a a good year. Now we don't
10:16
have the elasticity in our congressional
10:20
elections that we once had partly
10:22
because of the way we sort ourselves
10:24
geographically and a lot because of
10:26
gerrymandering.
10:28
>> So the uh and we're very polarized. So,
10:31
um, you know, where there used to be,
10:33
you know, 100 swing districts, there's
10:35
like 30 or 32, uh, right now, that
10:39
limits what Democrats, uh, might be able
10:42
to do in the congressional elections.
10:44
But remember, they only need three. And
10:46
even if through various redistricting
10:50
uh, schemes and now accelerated by the
10:53
Voting Rights Act decision of the
10:54
Supreme Court, Republicans gain a
10:56
handful. Um it they're still pushing a
10:59
boulder uphill. We've only had Terry
11:02
since the World War II, there have only
11:05
been two elections in which uh the party
11:10
in the White House gained seats in
11:12
Congress. And those two elections, in
11:14
those two elections, the president was
11:17
wildly popular. In 1998,
11:20
Bill Clinton had a a rating in the 60s.
11:23
in 2002, you'll remember around the uh
11:28
uh the 9/11
11:31
uh catastrophe, the country rallied
11:33
around George W. Bush, and he was he was
11:36
also in the 60s. And that's really what
11:39
these elections are. They're referendums
11:41
on the incumbent president. That's what
11:44
midterms have always been. every party,
11:46
including mine, and I probably told you
11:49
this back in the day in 2010 preceding
11:52
the catastrophic result we had in the
11:55
midterms. You know, we all all of us in
11:57
politics, we say, you know, we're going
11:59
to turn this into a comparative
12:00
election. This is going to be a real a
12:03
choice between uh you know, Republicans
12:06
and Democrats and what Democrats
12:08
believe. And so it it never works out
12:11
that way. I mean, I was making those
12:12
same arguments in 2010, and I still have
12:15
the tire tracks on my rear end from uh
12:18
from that election in which we lost 63
12:21
seats in the House. Um so, you know, the
12:25
only thing that I think Democrats should
12:27
be concerned about is um sort of
12:32
extraordinary measures by
12:34
>> uh the president. He's got election
12:36
deniers, you know, in a lot of key
12:39
positions in the Department of Homeland
12:40
Security and the Justice Department.
12:43
Um he and and you know, I expect to see
12:48
massive voting voter purges and
12:52
>> um a lot of voter intimidation. you
12:54
know, uh they have refused to forear the
12:58
idea that ICE may be deployed in certain
13:01
places and um uh you know, I so I worry
13:05
about that, but I I I I don't think I I
13:08
would not look at these polls and say,
13:09
gee, I don't I don't know. The other
13:11
number that does should be a little
13:14
disquiting to Democrats is Republicans
13:16
are sitting there with about, you know,
13:18
when you include the president's super
13:20
PAC, like $600 million to spend in these
13:24
uh races. And when you think about the
13:27
small battlefield of districts that are
13:30
swing districts in some states, uh, but
13:33
just a handful, that's a lot of money.
13:36
And so there's going to be an
13:38
unprecedented kind of negative
13:41
uh campaign, but I just think the the
13:44
the gravity is so the gravitational pull
13:48
is so strong here. It's very hard to see
13:51
in my view um the president overcoming
13:54
it.
13:55
>> Yeah. I want to get back to the
13:57
extraordinary measures. Pete Hexath uh
13:59
was asked, "Will you say that there
14:02
won't be armed uh military troops on the
14:05
ground during the election?" And he
14:07
would not say, "I pledge that we won't
14:09
do that." He would not answer that
14:11
question. That's a very live possibility
14:13
I want to get back to as well. But I
14:14
want to take I want you to take a look
14:15
at at the Republicans right now.
14:17
>> Yeah.
14:18
>> And this strikes me. the day before, the
14:21
week before the Iran war started, uh
14:25
what you had was a Republican party that
14:28
a strong majority said we should not go
14:30
to war in Iran. The next day, it was 85%
14:34
for the war and it stayed that way
14:38
despite the the way that it's gone. And
14:40
at the end of the day, you got to say
14:42
this is this is the personal party of
14:45
one man. They will go where he leads.
14:49
led them into war. And if if he says the
14:51
election's been rigged, we're going to
14:52
have millions of tens of millions of
14:55
Americans saying, "Yes, the Democrats
14:57
are stealing this election. We're going
14:58
to have a problem."
14:59
>> Yeah. Well, um
15:03
I would say, "Oh, he'd never do that."
15:06
Except I sold my he'd never do that
15:08
stock a long time ago.
15:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um but uh and you
15:12
know look I there the the there's some
15:14
discretion to the sitting house as to um
15:20
who is um you know whether they accept
15:23
the results from these states and that
15:25
will be
15:26
>> uh uh a concern if the house vote is
15:30
narrow
15:31
>> u but you know I don't anticipate that
15:34
if Trump said to speaker johnson you
15:35
know these elections were rigged you
15:37
should not seat these people that he
15:39
wouldn't
15:41
follow through on that and then you're
15:43
into court battles, you know, about
15:45
that. Um, so yeah, I mean there there
15:48
are all kinds of things that could
15:49
happen and this is the reality of life
15:53
with with Trump and you know my uh my
15:57
objections to the president have never
15:59
been I mean I you know there are lots of
16:02
lots of things I disagree with in terms
16:05
of policy and some of some of which I
16:07
think are going to have has had has have
16:11
and will in the future u foreseeable
16:15
future have created huge problems for
16:17
the country that we're going to have to
16:19
uh deal with when he's gone. Uh but um
16:25
you know I u my objection to him is that
16:31
he he really doesn't and you covered him
16:33
and you know this he thinks that rules
16:36
and laws and norms and institutions are
16:38
for suckers.
16:39
>> Yep. You know, but rules and law laws
16:42
and norms and institutions are
16:44
fundamental to the functioning of a
16:46
democracy. They're also important to the
16:49
world, by the way. And so, we're feeling
16:51
the effects of a a United States
16:53
president ostensibly the leader of the
16:56
free world who doesn't believe in those
16:59
mechanisms and processes that have kept
17:01
the world from devolving into world war
17:04
for, you know, generations. Um, so you
17:08
know, when you're dealing with a guy who
17:12
um who doesn't believe in any of these
17:14
things, then it becomes asymmetric kind
17:18
of I hate to use the word warfare, but
17:20
that but you know, it's an asymmetric
17:23
battle because there's no tool that he
17:26
thinks the words that the words that
17:28
Donald Trump will never be heard saying
17:31
is, "Well, we could do that, but it
17:33
would be wrong."
17:34
>> Right? that's just not in his it's not
17:36
in his he thinks the only thing you can
17:39
do wrong is that which is not in your
17:41
self-interest
17:42
>> and that has seeped into the society.
17:45
Millions of people who look up to him,
17:48
they're now kind of the same way. And
17:50
and look, we've always been a country
17:52
that had its share of Ponzi schemers and
17:55
embezzlers and and liars and cheats and
17:57
all of that. There was kind of a healthy
17:59
proportion as there is in any society.
18:01
But what distinguished us from the
18:03
beginning was a sense that the only way
18:05
this system is going to work is if
18:07
people have some degree of civic virtue
18:10
and of abiding by those norms.
18:12
>> Yeah. I mean the the founding fathers
18:16
set up a system knowing that people had
18:21
frailties and imperfections.
18:24
uh they set up a system of
18:27
self-governance that really hadn't
18:30
in the modern era been effectuated. Uh
18:35
and it was reliant on
18:38
um on checks and balances and on the
18:42
idea that no one actor in the process
18:46
would become so powerful as to overwhelm
18:50
the rest. And he's testing that. He
18:51
doesn't believe that. I mean, he
18:53
believes that presidents are kings. He
18:57
really does believe that. I think that's
18:58
why he admires kings so much. Um, and
19:02
um, uh, you know, so we're stress
19:06
testing this in the 250th year. We're
19:09
stress testing testing the uh, system
19:12
that the founding fathers established.
19:15
Um and um we just need to be we need to
19:20
be vigilant and hold all our
19:22
institutions accountable. Um and you
19:26
know for for everything that's happened
19:28
Terry um there the the courts I think
19:33
have been pretty active you know in uh
19:38
in pushing back and um but the biggest
19:43
check you know uh Justice Brandise said
19:46
the highest office in a democracy is the
19:48
office of citizen. The biggest check is
19:51
us. The biggest check is do people come
19:54
to the polls in
19:57
uh you know record numbers and say this
20:00
is not where we want to go. I was very
20:02
encouraged by what happened in Hungary
20:05
uh recently. You you know how much
20:07
Victor Orban was kind of an iconic
20:09
figure for Trump
20:10
>> strong man.
20:11
>> Yes. And and I think you know as much as
20:15
project 2025 was a blueprint uh Orban
20:19
was very much a blueprint for Trump and
20:22
if you look at the things he's done in
20:24
or he did in Hungary to kind of erode to
20:28
turn Hungary into to try and turn
20:30
Hungary into a zombie democracy. Um you
20:34
know the democracy worked despite all of
20:37
the impediments that he put in its way.
20:40
it worked and um you know I I have
20:44
confidence that it will work here.
20:46
>> Do you think that the the basic laws of
20:48
political gravity in our country still
20:50
apply to Donald Trump? In other words,
20:53
you know, the the American people have
20:55
always seemed to me to have a very
20:56
healthy impatience with secondterm
20:59
presidents. They kind of get tired of
21:01
their presidents after a few years in
21:03
office. Trump, you know, if he had his
21:05
choice, would want to be president
21:06
forever. But do you see a sense where he
21:10
his his path his shelf life is is fading
21:14
in the natural way that it does for all
21:17
presidents that people are looking past
21:19
him
21:21
>> I think there's no question about that.
21:22
I mean you look at where his approval
21:24
rating has been. I mean, this war turns
21:27
out to be um an incredible act of self-
21:31
sabotage
21:33
uh by Trump because it's exacerbated the
21:35
concerns that people already had.
21:38
>> Uh but
21:39
>> he's sitting there with a you know on
21:41
the average a 37% approval rating. That
21:44
is abysmal. And when you see I mean
21:48
people send me focus groups and stuff.
21:51
Um and you know we're seeing now what we
21:54
saw at the end of the first term. Um
21:57
there is an exhaustion. I mean Trump is
22:00
exhausting. Um you know uh perpetual
22:04
conflict is exhausting.
22:08
Um and people are feeling that
22:11
exhaustion. So, um, you know, I don't
22:14
think he's at all exempt from the
22:17
natural laws of political gravity. Uh, I
22:20
think he's actually exacerbated his own
22:22
situation and he's accelerated the
22:25
process. Uh, and you know, the thing is
22:28
he won't pay the price for it
22:30
politically because he's not going to be
22:32
on a ballot again. But, you know, when I
22:35
talk to Republican friends of mine,
22:38
including members of Congress,
22:40
um, you know, they're deeply, deeply
22:43
worried because they know they're going
22:44
to pay the price. Terry, you know, at
22:46
the beginning of the year, I did a
22:50
a pod a a program at Arizona State
22:52
University with uh Tony Fabrizio and
22:56
Chris uh Chris Lasvita who are uh very
22:59
much the strategic and tactical
23:02
um brains behind the president's
23:04
political operation
23:06
along with James Blair who's running
23:08
that
23:09
>> midterm campaign. and they said, you
23:11
know, we're gonna spend this year
23:13
talking about the president's economic
23:16
achievements and the value of his tax
23:20
cuts and and we're going to make the big
23:22
contrast with Democrats who voted
23:24
against all of that and so on. And he's
23:26
going to be out there talking about
23:27
this. He can't. He's not interested. He
23:30
goes out there. He this this event on
23:34
Sunday at which he called the
23:35
affordability thing the
23:38
affordability concern that people have
23:39
and uh got off on jags about
23:44
what a superior general Robert E. Lee
23:46
was and if not for Gettysburg the South
23:49
probably would have won the war and so
23:51
on. It's like they send him out and he
23:54
refuses to do what he can read the
23:57
speech they give him but then when he
23:59
adlibs he takes the story in a
24:01
completely different direction. So, I
24:04
mean, he is he is engaged in a whether
24:06
he knows it or not,
24:08
>> he's engaged in an an experiment in uh
24:12
self-sabotage, but he's sabotaging uh
24:14
his own candidates as well.
24:18
>> And he's also, you know, you you
24:20
mentioned the the intensity. It's he's
24:23
exhausting, right? Yeah. And part of the
24:25
reason it is that it feels like the
24:28
nation is on a razor's edge uh every
24:32
single day. What's going to happen next?
24:34
What what shocking thing is going to
24:36
happen next? And that gets us to the
24:38
question of political violence, right?
24:40
This is the third assassination attempt
24:44
on President Trump in the past couple of
24:46
years. Uh and two things struck me about
24:50
it. one
24:52
um right away a substantial number of of
24:56
people who don't support him of
24:57
Democrats said that's that's that's a
25:00
fake that's a that's a staged
25:03
assassination. I was shocked by I was
25:04
genuinely shock I thought we were the re
25:06
I thought that Democrats were like the
25:08
reality
25:09
>> uh the reality party and then the other
25:11
thing that shocked me
25:13
>> was that this is something now that
25:16
plagues the left right for the first
25:18
time in 30 years political violence
25:20
threats and uh acts of political
25:22
violence as being as tracked by the FBI
25:25
or I'm not even sure was the I'm sure
25:27
who tracked them first time in 30 years
25:30
it's coming from the left more than the
25:32
right and And that's a bad sign.
25:35
>> Yeah. Well, look, I you know, back in
25:37
2022, we did a survey at the Institute
25:40
of Politics in the University of Chicago
25:42
uh um and political uh one of the
25:47
questions we had these agree disagree
25:50
statements and one of the statements was
25:52
and I'm paraphrasing because we're going
25:53
back a few years here, but it was, you
25:56
know, government is corrupt and
25:59
rigged against us and we may have to
26:03
take up arms uh in in order to uh deal
26:08
with that. And uh like a shocking number
26:11
of people agreed with that 28% or
26:14
something, but it was uh it was the the
26:16
the very liberal and the very
26:18
conservatives
26:20
who who who agreed with that statement.
26:23
That was during the Biden presidency.
26:25
Um, look, um, when you have this sort of
26:29
muscular
26:31
and constantly combative,
26:34
uh, presidency and you see these, um,
26:39
>> trespasses on the rule of law on a
26:42
regular basis and he uses the language
26:45
of war in discussing his fellow
26:48
citizens. you know that is going to rile
26:51
up the every action creates an equal and
26:56
opposite reaction and it's incredibly
26:59
unhealthy incredibly unhealthy and um
27:03
yeah I was shocked as you were by the
27:05
number of people who said to me
27:08
>> you know well would you think that was
27:10
real and so on and you know I take this
27:12
really seriously Terry because
27:15
um when my friend uh Barack Obama
27:18
started running for president. Um he got
27:21
Secret Service coverage earlier than
27:23
anyone in history because of the um the
27:28
volume and vehements of the threat the
27:31
threats that he was receiving.
27:34
And uh I remember the first day the
27:36
Secret Service arrived and you know they
27:39
asked him to wear a kind of modified
27:42
bulletproof vest that had a a a guard
27:45
over his heart and um and you know I've
27:50
known him for I knew him as a young man
27:53
when he returned from law school. So
27:54
I've known him for a long time. Cared
27:57
about him as a friend. It was really a
27:59
bracing moment when you realized right
28:02
>> that you know just by um running for for
28:06
the presidency he uh had um become such
28:12
a target. And um so uh this is anyone
28:17
who believes that political violence is
28:20
the answer to our political
28:23
problems no matter how much of a crisis
28:26
they've they they see um really
28:30
misunderstands
28:32
um what a democracy is and what that
28:34
would mean. And um uh I you know it's
28:40
sobering and it'd be it's easy to point
28:43
fingers and blame of blame and I I could
28:46
do that but more than anything my hope
28:50
is that people stand back and um it's
28:55
not you know to do that is not um
28:58
surrender.
28:59
It's it's
29:01
um it's common sense. you know, this is
29:05
not where we want to go.
29:07
>> Most people feel that way. I I there's
29:09
no question that that that is how most
29:11
people feel, but it seems like we we do
29:13
live in a world in a country where the
29:15
extremes are driving the debate and and
29:18
the activity. But I I want to get to uh
29:21
your sense of the midterms. So, you the
29:25
House, but let's talk about some of the
29:27
races in the Senate. What Senate races
29:29
are you watching? Do you think somebody
29:30
like James Darico can actually win in
29:32
Texas?
29:33
>> U Yeah, I mean he could win under the
29:36
right circumstances and obviously who
29:38
the nominee will be has some impact on
29:40
that. Um, you know, he's a very talented
29:42
candidate. I think Texas um, you know,
29:46
there there's the assumption was there
29:48
that the
29:50
Hispanic
29:51
uh, vote that went to Trump in 2024 was
29:55
going was a permanent shift. Um, and I
29:58
think what's happened there and around
30:00
the country is that Hispanic voters who
30:02
were um, eager to embrace the um, uh,
30:07
you know, there was a misunderstanding
30:09
about the border, I think most Hispanic
30:12
American voters in this country um,
30:14
particularly in Texas where yeah, we we
30:17
need border control uh, here. So, uh,
30:21
they were fine with that. the the
30:23
Hispanic community which includes large
30:26
numbers of small business people and ent
30:30
you know uh and and workers were are
30:34
very sensitive to the economic
30:36
conditions. That's one of the reasons
30:38
they voted for Trump. um obviously
30:41
deeply disillusioned now. And then on
30:45
sort of what ICE and the border, the
30:47
internal border enforcement people have
30:50
done, basically um racially profiling
30:55
every Hispanic person in the country and
30:58
you know acting with real um you know
31:03
violence and uh and you know lack of
31:09
regard for for people's rights. I think
31:12
this has really disillusioned a large
31:14
number of Hispanic voters. So, you know,
31:15
they think they're going to pick up five
31:17
v uh house seats because of reortionment
31:20
down there, redistricting that they did.
31:23
That was the first state that Trump
31:25
insisted they do. I don't think they're
31:27
going to get all of those seats. And it
31:29
also makes Texas more competit uh
31:31
competitive uh generally, but I would
31:35
not put Terico at the top of the list of
31:37
states that I'm watching. Um
31:40
>> who is what is? Well, I think North
31:41
Carolina and Maine are sort of uh
31:44
foundational. You have to have those
31:46
states. And I think
31:47
>> that you know uh even though um
31:53
uh Maine is
31:55
>> Yeah, I think Platner is a was a
31:57
surprise,
31:58
>> but I think he'll win. I think there's a
32:00
that's a state in which there is real
32:03
disqu about a kind of establishment
32:08
politics
32:09
uh and how it's failed a lot of people
32:12
and Platner is a very good candidate and
32:14
there's a generational
32:16
>> uh element to the Susan
32:18
>> uh Collins is a very good politician who
32:20
has been on the scene for four decades.
32:22
Yeah.
32:23
>> You know both as an uh Senate Chief of
32:26
Staff and then as a senator. Uh but um
32:29
you know I I think everybody has a
32:31
halflife in this business. Uh and um you
32:35
know I I I think he has a very good
32:37
chance. But then you say well those are
32:39
two they need four.
32:40
>> They need to hold on the seats they have
32:42
in Georgia and Michigan. Um I think
32:45
Georgia seems solid to me. Michigan may
32:48
be somewhat reliant on the outcome of
32:50
that primary but I still think Michigan
32:52
holds on. Um so where are the other
32:55
seats coming from? Well, um, Ohio,
32:59
you know, Sherid Brown, who is very
33:01
popular there, um, is trying to make a
33:04
comeback and I think he's got a pretty
33:07
good chance. He came far.
33:09
>> He he he outran the ticket by quite a
33:12
bit two years ago. And, um, I think that
33:16
he has a real shot to uh, uh, to take
33:20
uh, that seat back. uh Alaska,
33:24
Mary uh Pelola, she's uh uh she was a a
33:29
congresswoman
33:31
uh Senator Sullivan there is deeply
33:34
vulnerable and they have this rank
33:35
choice voting system that um that I
33:39
think favors her. Um I that's that's a I
33:44
I rate that as a high uh possibility. I
33:48
think people uh should pay some
33:50
attention to Iowa
33:52
uh where there's an open seat. Um Iowa's
33:56
been hit harder than any other state by
33:59
uh the tariffs in the war.
34:02
>> The level of discontent in in Iowa is
34:05
palpable there. I think it's very
34:07
possible that um they will um uh that
34:12
that you'll have a Democratic governor
34:14
there for the first time in 16 years. I
34:16
think the Senate race is competitive.
34:17
the Republicans have a a a good
34:20
candidate. Um but um Democrats have a uh
34:25
the possibility of nominating a very
34:27
strong candidate there as well. So um
34:30
I'd watch Iowa, too. And then Texas, you
34:32
mentioned Texas. I think Texas is um uh
34:37
a state to watch. And if uh Paxton, the
34:41
attorney general, gets nominated down
34:43
there, you know, he has deep
34:44
vulnerabilities and um uh that, you
34:49
know, Terico will match up well against
34:51
because, you know, there's there are
34:54
moral morality and ethics questions
34:56
about uh Paxton that are universally
34:59
known and um uh and have been brooded
35:03
about in Texas. So,
35:05
>> we'll see. But I I you know I don't
35:08
think I wouldn't rate Democrats a strong
35:10
favor to take the Senate, but I think
35:13
it's a 50-50 deal. And if there is in
35:16
fact a wave uh you know, I didn't even
35:19
mention Kansas. There's a new can uh uh
35:22
uh there's a new candidate in uh Kansas
35:26
uh who uh is a pastor who's running on
35:29
the Democratic side striking some of the
35:32
themes of Taller Rico. Uh Kansas is
35:36
always a surprising state. I mean,
35:37
they've have they have a Democrat
35:39
governor. Um and you know, I'd keep an
35:42
eye on Kansas as well. Yeah, this is
35:45
this is one of the surprises of the year
35:47
because everybody assumed that Democrats
35:49
might be competitive for the House, but
35:52
probably would not be competitive for
35:53
the Senate. Uh if I'm John Thoon, I'm
35:57
concerned.
35:58
>> Well, it also seems that the Democrats
36:00
are getting the message. You've talked
36:02
about the need to reconnect with middle
36:04
class and working class voters. I I
36:07
thought one of the
36:08
>> really one of the most shocking things
36:10
in in the in the 2024 election was that
36:12
Donald Trump won voters who make less
36:14
than $100,000 a year
36:16
>> over the course of 10 years. He stole
36:18
the Democrat's base
36:19
>> and uh and he's maintained some of those
36:21
gains. I've been struck by especially
36:23
among black men. Not giant gains,
36:25
>> right? But some and it tells you
36:28
something less about Trump in some ways
36:30
than about the Democrats and it feels
36:32
like some of these candidates Platner
36:35
Telerico in a different way shard brown
36:37
in the way he's always been maybe
36:40
Democratic voters are understanding
36:43
that the the issues that concerned the
36:46
Democratic party it seemed for a long
36:48
time for many years it felt like were
36:51
boutiquey they were they were cultural
36:53
issues they were intellectual issues
36:55
when
36:56
said, "What are you?" Americans have
36:57
always thought, you know, are not
36:59
ideologues, right? They're we're
37:01
pragmatists. We like what works. And
37:03
whether he's Trump is in trouble, it's
37:05
because what he's got isn't working.
37:07
>> And the Democrats maybe lost the working
37:09
class because
37:11
>> as well as much of the middle class
37:12
because what they were pitching didn't
37:14
seem to work. Didn't seem like they were
37:15
talking at people's problems.
37:17
>> Yes. Exactly. We we like what works. We
37:20
also measure through the prism of our
37:22
own experience. That's why when both
37:24
Biden and Trump tried to jawbone people
37:26
into believing that the economy was
37:28
strong, you know, the like the cash
37:31
register doesn't lie, the gas pump
37:33
doesn't lie, the rent check or the
37:35
mortgage check
37:37
>> doesn't lie, you know. Uh so um you know
37:41
that's the prism through which people
37:43
see uh the see the their choices. Um,
37:48
yeah. Listen, I've said for some time
37:50
that as the Democratic Party has become
37:52
more of a kind of metropolitan, college
37:56
educated
37:58
party, or at least that's the base.
38:00
>> Um, it still sees itself as the party of
38:03
working people, but it approaches
38:05
working people uh more like missionaries
38:08
and anthropologists. And
38:10
>> people show up and say, "We're here to
38:12
help you become more like us." Oh,
38:14
>> and and and what and that what that says
38:17
to people is somehow you think what you
38:19
do is more important than what I do.
38:21
I'll tell you something, Terry. I
38:23
remember that pandemic and a lot of us
38:26
were um fortunate to be able to sit in
38:30
our homes comfortably and uh do our work
38:34
o on screens like this. Uh and then
38:38
there were people who had to co go out
38:41
to uh care for us, protect us, continue
38:44
to make things, ship things, and keep
38:47
the country going. And we
38:51
um we we went out on our balconies every
38:53
once in a while and we banged our pots
38:55
and we cheered the essential workers.
38:58
And then when the pandemic was over, the
39:00
essential workers became invisible
39:02
again. Well, if they were essential
39:03
then, they're essential now. And uh they
39:06
deserve respect. Uh and they should and
39:09
we they we should uh approach them as
39:11
neighbors, not as missionaries. And we
39:14
should be as willing to listen as we are
39:16
to talk. And uh I think Democrats need
39:19
to understand that. And if uh guys like
39:23
uh uh Platner and and Sherid Brown and
39:26
Torico
39:28
um are having some success, it's because
39:31
they're going everywhere and they're
39:33
listening as well as talking. And when
39:36
they speak, they're they are informed by
39:39
the the experience of the people they
39:41
meet and their concerns are animated by
39:45
the the the concerns of the people they
39:48
meet. and Democrats need to do that.
39:51
This notion that you can be uh just a
39:53
bunch of blue islands on an ocean of red
39:57
and become uh a governing party
40:01
uh is is foolish and it should be um
40:06
dismissed and um I I hope that that's
40:09
the lesson that Democrats have learned
40:11
because you're right. If you are well if
40:14
you are well off if you are comfortable
40:18
um you have the luxury to um to
40:22
entertain uh you know sort of what you
40:25
call boutique issues but you know even
40:28
not boutique issues like I kept telling
40:32
people during 2024 who said why aren't
40:35
we just talking about democracy every
40:37
day
40:38
>> uh that if you're talking about
40:41
democracy over the dinner table, you
40:44
probably don't have to worry about the
40:45
cost of the food on the table. But first
40:48
of all, if you're if you're if you do
40:50
have to worry about the cost of the food
40:51
at the table, you're probably sitting
40:52
around a dining a kitchen table. And um
40:56
and that's what you're talking about.
40:59
And more people were talking about that
41:02
than about uh the threat to democracy,
41:05
as serious as they were. And obviously
41:08
the concerns about democracy have been
41:10
borne out by what we've seen. That said,
41:13
people are still struggling to pay for
41:14
the food on their table and that's the
41:17
focus of many uh Americans. So, you
41:20
know, my theory of politics politics is
41:23
um really confront the things that are
41:26
important to the largest number of
41:27
people um and then work from there. And
41:31
I I hope that Democrats do that.
41:33
>> Yeah, that's pretty good math. I
41:34
remember going to Trump rallies in 2016
41:37
and the thing I heard over and over is
41:40
he talks like me.
41:41
>> Yes,
41:41
>> he does. He's not talking down to me. I
41:43
I get and and yeah, he's rough around
41:45
the edges, but so am I.
41:47
>> And that uh that connection hardwired
41:50
now.
41:51
>> Yes. Although, you know, what's
41:53
interesting to me just looking at this
41:54
polling and focus groups and just in
41:56
conversations that I have is I think
41:59
there's a growing awareness that talking
42:02
like you doesn't necessarily mean caring
42:05
about you. Talking like you doesn't mean
42:08
that the things you're going to do are
42:10
going to help you. The things that he
42:12
does are going to help you. And what
42:14
he's made manifestly clear is that, you
42:18
know, if he he talked about making the
42:20
American family more prosperous, well,
42:23
the the family he's made more prosperous
42:25
is his own.
42:26
>> Yeah. Most other Americans find
42:29
themselves uh continuing to struggle
42:31
because the president has been so
42:33
focused on, you know, his and his
42:38
economics and on his uh uh you know, his
42:42
vanity projects, you know, his his
42:45
ballrooms and arches and uh and his, you
42:49
know,
42:50
insane lust for the Nobel Prize,
42:54
>> which he's now servicing
42:56
in war, you know, um I guess but um you
43:00
know, so um don't assume that um I mean
43:05
he has a core of vote. He's got a high
43:07
floor. There's no doubt about it, but
43:11
not nearly high enough. I mean, the guy
43:13
has a like a 23% or something approval
43:17
rating among voters who call themselves
43:19
independents.
43:20
Um you know, you can't that's not a
43:23
viable model. he was competitive with
43:26
independence uh in 2024.
43:30
So having, you know, having a a strong
43:35
base will serve him. And so and the way
43:37
it serves him the most is because
43:39
Republicans have stuck with him in the
43:41
main um and he's willing to um use all
43:45
the tools at his disposal uh including u
43:49
you know um as he would to borrow his
43:52
phrase obliterating any Republican who
43:55
uh opposes him. there's a great deal of
43:58
fear that continues that gives him
44:00
control
44:02
um even as he doesn't have support from
44:04
a majority of Americans. Incidentally,
44:08
um I don't know when this when you
44:10
release this, but to on Tuesday, the day
44:12
after we have this conversation,
44:14
there'll be a primary in the state of
44:16
Indiana. There'll be seven state
44:18
senators running who had the timmerity
44:22
and and I would argue the courage to say
44:25
no when the president demanded that they
44:27
redistrict uh Indiana uh and try and
44:31
capture another seat or it was really
44:34
one more seat I think and then um uh so
44:39
they're sp they've spent $9 million to
44:41
defeat these seven state
44:44
>> senators. Um if if if if we'll see how
44:48
many of them survive. I mean if he gets
44:50
all seven then this myth of his
44:52
invincibility will uh continue. Uh later
44:56
in the month Thomas Massie will be up
44:59
for renomination in Kentucky. Trump has
45:02
and his forces have spent millions and
45:04
millions and millions of dollars uh to
45:06
beat Massie. Massie survives, I think
45:09
that's going to be noticed by other
45:12
Republicans who may begin to feel like
45:15
they have a little more latitude uh to
45:18
uh uh to dissent from Trump. And then
45:21
there'll be a primary in Louisiana where
45:24
Bill Cassidy, the senator from Louisiana
45:26
who voted against who voted to convict
45:29
Trump, is up for reelection. He had
45:31
gotten he said earlier that he had
45:33
gotten assurances from the White House
45:34
that they weren't gonna Trump wasn't
45:36
going to enter in that primary. And of
45:37
course,
45:38
>> no one should have believed that knowing
45:40
how Trump felt about that. And so now he
45:43
Trump has a candidate in that race and
45:45
Cassid's fighting for his life. But if
45:48
somehow and I think it's more less
45:50
likely than likely, but if Cassidy were
45:51
to survive, that's another example of of
45:55
that. So, uh, you know, we'll see if
45:58
this, uh, increased disaection with
46:02
Trump, um, begins to seep into his
46:06
control over his own flock, as it were.
46:10
>> Well, as a nativeborn son of Illinois,
46:13
neighbor of Indiana,
46:14
>> yes. uh we might be rivals but uh we're
46:16
Midwesterners and I was proud of those
46:19
Hoosiers
46:20
>> for standing up to to Trump simply to
46:23
demonstrate their independence not
46:24
necessarily because the position they
46:25
took but because of what they showed the
46:28
country
46:29
>> I thought infectious but I don't know
46:31
>> well yeah I mean look Trump started a uh
46:34
you know he started a redistricting
46:38
uh war that and there was a chain
46:39
reaction and I think it's you know Uh
46:44
it's really unfortunate. I think we're
46:46
going to be I mean it is going to
46:47
further polarize the Congress
46:50
and make it more difficult for us to get
46:53
to a get to a better place. The only
46:55
thing I I share your feeling about the
46:57
uh Republicans in the uh in Indiana. My
47:01
only message to them is keep your hands
47:03
off the Chicago Bears. Okay. That's it.
47:05
We don't want them moving to Hammond,
47:07
Indiana. I think that would be a
47:09
terrible travesty. So, as much as I
47:12
support your courage in standing up to
47:14
the president, I want you to stand down
47:16
on the bears.
47:17
>> 100%. I'm with you on that. So, I want
47:20
to end on on a big picture question
47:22
because I've heard you talk about this a
47:24
little bit. How do we get past this
47:26
division in our country? Trump is a
47:28
ferocious personality who has governed
47:31
through division deliberately.
47:34
Are we going to rebuild or do we have to
47:37
build something new? Well, first of all,
47:40
we have to demand something new in our
47:43
leader. Th this we we have a political
47:46
crisis that in many ways is moral in in
47:49
nature. Um you know um we talked earlier
47:53
about um or maybe we didn't my
47:56
conversations bleed together but um you
47:59
know so much of our uh democracy depends
48:02
on the character of our leaders and the
48:05
faith of our leaders. good faith of our
48:07
leaders. Um, America needs um leadership
48:11
that um reflects its best values and the
48:15
kind of values that we teach our
48:18
children and that we have, you know,
48:20
that we have in the past associated with
48:22
our our country. Um so, um it starts
48:27
there. But in terms of this issue, I I
48:30
think it would be a terrible mistake for
48:33
Democrats to think that
48:36
all we need to do is elect a Democratic
48:38
president, then we're going to restore
48:40
everything that uh Trump destroyed. Uh
48:44
there are things that Trump has
48:45
destroyed
48:46
uh that um I you know are going to be
48:52
incredibly costly
48:55
uh in the future. And um and you know I
48:59
think you know and this is not
49:02
necessarily a popular opinion but what
49:05
Elon Musk did in uh in in a with you
49:09
know a lightning attack uh destroying
49:13
American foreign aid uh you know in USAD
49:17
will prove to be maybe the the the the
49:20
most destructive foreign policy decision
49:23
uh you know ever.
49:26
It was morally bankrupt because there
49:29
are millions of people in the world who
49:31
will go hungry, who will die um you know
49:37
who will suffer because of that
49:40
decision. And it was so much um a credit
49:43
to our country that for a relatively
49:46
small amount of money we made a huge
49:48
difference in the world and it bought us
49:50
a lot of goodwill and it and it and it
49:52
created more stability.
49:54
>> Wow. Uh and uh so um uh you know that
50:00
but so there are things that he
50:04
destroyed that and we need to rethink
50:07
you know how we do this but we have to
50:08
we do have to repair and but this to me
50:11
has to fundamentally be uh about renewal
50:15
not restoration because people were
50:17
unhappy with the status quo. So that's
50:19
why Donald Trump got elected. To say
50:21
we're just going to go back to what we
50:23
were doing would be a it would not only
50:26
be politically foolish, but it would be
50:27
wrong. It would be uh unresponsive and
50:32
uh sort of obtuse
50:34
uh to to think we need to figure out how
50:37
we actually have a system that's more
50:39
responsive to the concerns of everyday
50:42
people and less corrupted by uh the big
50:46
money influences. uh in Washington that
50:49
have gone run a muck since Citizens
50:52
United made it so much easier for
50:56
moneyed interests to infiltrate our and
50:58
and and influence uh our system. And you
51:03
know, Donald Trump has created an a a
51:06
kind of wild west environment in which u
51:10
government is up uh even more than in
51:13
the past up to the high up for the
51:15
highest bidder. We we need to we need to
51:18
to to do the first thing which is to
51:20
make government more responsive. We need
51:21
to do the second thing which is to
51:23
really get serious about dealing with uh
51:26
corruption and uh so this has to be
51:30
about renewal. We need to we need to
51:33
restore the character of our leadership,
51:36
but we also need to um we need to to
51:40
reinvent our system to be more um
51:44
authentically responsive to the concerns
51:46
of people. And the last thing is we you
51:48
know I sometimes hear this debate
51:50
between Trump who has uh usurped some of
51:53
the great ideas of the 19th century
51:55
right tariffs and obliteration of civil
51:58
service and you know oligarchs and um
52:02
all of that stuff and and the and the
52:05
great ideas of the 21st century which I
52:08
you know am more sympathetic to but um
52:12
of how government should work um and
52:16
we're living in the 21st century when we
52:18
have all these tools that we could use
52:20
to to make government more efficient. We
52:24
have a lot a whole body of evidence as
52:26
to where it succeeded and where it's
52:28
failed and we should really study those
52:30
and ask ourselves hard questions because
52:32
sometimes I feel like he's he's trying
52:35
to restore the policies of the 19th
52:37
century and there are Democrats who want
52:39
to restore the policies of the 20th
52:40
century and we should be looking ahead
52:43
>> and uh so that I'mma I'mma put put me
52:47
down for renewal uh and not restoration.
52:50
>> Yeah, I love that and I love the way you
52:52
describe it. It sounds It sounds like uh
52:55
something we could put our shoulders to
52:56
the wheel and and get moving. It sounds
52:59
like uh the next America, right?
53:01
>> Yes. I mean, I I look I wrote a book 10
53:03
years ago called Believer, and it was a
53:05
memoir, but it was really and it wasn't
53:07
a believer in any one political figure,
53:10
even though I was associated with
53:12
President Obama, who I have enormous
53:15
regard for. It was about this system.
53:17
I'm the son of a a refugee, a Jewish
53:21
refugee from Eastern Europe. Uh and one
53:25
generation later, I was the senior
53:27
adviser to a president of the United
53:29
States. So when people say only in
53:32
America, I believe that and I think
53:34
America is has been a miracle of the
53:37
world because we were a magnet have been
53:39
a magnet for people from all over the
53:40
world who uh who wanted to be part of
53:44
this and wanted to be able to strive and
53:46
get ahead and contribute to back to the
53:48
country and so on. And um uh so I'm an
53:53
optimist, you know, I mean I'm too old
53:55
to not be an optimist. uh and um we we
54:00
we we are a we we we are at our best a a
54:03
a country of optimists because we have
54:07
endured so much and we endured so much
54:09
to become the country that we are. We're
54:12
celebrating that this year. So yeah, I'm
54:15
you know I want to get past this period
54:18
of grinding cynicism
54:21
and have a season of hope. You know,
54:24
we've we've we've had those seasons of
54:27
grinding cynicism in the past and we've
54:29
had seasons of hope that followed. We
54:32
need that now.
54:33
>> We sure do. David Axelro has been really
54:36
really great. Appreciate you doing this.
54:38
>> Terry, I I appreciate you. I always
54:40
appreciate it dealing with you um uh you
54:43
know, as a journalist and um for the
54:46
record, I always found you uh probing
54:49
and fair. And one thing that I can say
54:52
is um there's no president and no
54:55
presidential aid who doesn't get pissed
54:58
off at people like Terry Moran from time
55:01
to time because that's their job. Their
55:04
job is to probe and test and shine a
55:07
bright light in the dark corners and
55:10
that's part of the strength of
55:11
democracy.
55:13
And um I honor the people who do that
55:16
job and uh and I knew that because I
55:19
came out of journalism myself. Uh I felt
55:23
that way even as I was uh uh you know
55:26
dropping a few uh expletives myself in
55:30
the privacy of my own office when I read
55:33
something or saw something. Uh but at
55:35
the same time I felt thank god they're
55:37
there. Thank God they're there to hold
55:38
us accountable. So you you you deserve
55:42
great credit for doing that. Uh you've
55:45
all through your career and uh I'm here
55:48
because I want to honor that.
55:51
>> Well, thank you. That means that means a
55:53
lot. I really appreciate that.
55:55
>> Good to see you.