Latest / The Growth Project / Episode 371: The Myth About Multitasking

Transcript

Episode 371: The Myth About Multitasking · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  And so when you've wired your brain to be so heavily used to this task, switching, multitasking way of doing things, people begin to wonder like, well, gosh, why can't I just kind of stick with it? Well, that you've you've taught it to do this. You've conditioned your brain to have an extremely short attention span.
• 0:19
  Welcome to The Growth Project, a podcast brought to you by AMP doctor Drew Brandon here today joined by Doctor Gabby. Kavita as. And today is a myth busting day. How's that sound? I bring it back to the mic.
• 0:34
  I can't recall a single episode. Can you? I can I go back to the one where, the myth was, if you run through the rain, you actually get more wet than if you were to walk through the rain. It was kind of this idea that actually, you know, if you walk, you get less wet.
• 0:57
  Whatever means, although you're in the rain longer, although you're in the rain longer.
• 1:03
  I don't remember the science behind it, but I just remember that one sticking with me. So now, any time it rains, I highly debate. I'm like, home. So you walk over to her right?
• 1:14
  Okay. Any attempt I had to be really focused on our podcast today was just lost because I'm really stuck on that.
• 1:20
  I'm really stuck on that right now. Just getting a visual of like, really? How would that work anyways? Okay, well, that said, thank you for that introduction there, Gabby. That that said, we are going to be talking about, a really important myth today. And this is a topic that I know I've had this conversation with so many people over the years.
• 1:40
  It's highly relevant to people who I think are aiming for high performance, regardless of what industry you're in. So what am I talking about? What is this myth we're going to bust? And it's here it is, Gabby, I am good at multitasking. All right. So so the person who's out there who is convinced of this, that they would call themselves a great multitasker.
• 2:01
  Let's start there. And like, what does that even mean?
• 2:04
  multitasking, you're basically saying I'm good at doing multiple things at once. I'm good at directing my attention to more than one thing.
• 2:13
  we'll dispel this myth a little bit, but ultimately, I think I would challenge this individual to say, maybe you're not good at multitasking, but you've gotten good at it.
• 2:23
  Dividing up your attentional control. Yeah, yeah, you've gotten good at if you think if you were to try to kind of capture attention or capabilities in a pie graph, I think what you've gotten good at is slicing up your pie and giving away pieces of it in a variety of different places at once. Like, that's what multitasking really is.
• 2:44
  So. So people who are saying that I'm good at this, let's get into some some concrete examples. This is we're framing up what we really mean by this. So Gabby, do it this way. Let's imagine we've got a like a working professional. Does it really matter what they're doing in any given day industry wise? But like for a working professional, what is multitasking commonly look like in a in a day to day, setting?
• 3:10
  Well, it could look like a myriad of things. First thing that comes to mind for me is you're sitting in a meeting and you've also got your laptop in front of you, got your email pulled up, and you're maybe reading an email while also simultaneously listening in on this group meeting,
• 3:26
  maybe even responding to an email, while you're in this meeting,
• 3:31
  messages that you send out when you're on a virtual call.
• 3:33
  So you are actively engaging on, teams call or zoom call, but something crosses your mind. You're like, oh, I also need to get this message out. So you pull up slack real quick and you send out a message.
• 3:49
  And then it it also presents some ways of, well, I've got dual monitors. Right. So I've got my presentation I'm working on, on my left monitor.
• 3:59
  On my right monitor, I've got my email and I'm kind of switching back and forth between the two.
• 4:05
  That sounds like a lot. Okay. So so that's very real. And you know, if you even think go back to the example of the meeting. And we've both seen this in plenty of the work that we've done around the country.
• 4:14
  We're coming in and maybe doing leadership training. And although we try to make certain requests about what we want, how we want people to conduct themselves or handle the meeting, they're grown adults. They can make their own decisions. But it's very normal for a person to be in a meeting with a laptop up. As you mentioned, emails open, teams, notifications are alert or alive.
• 4:35
  Right there. Pinging cell phone is sitting right next to the computer. Yeah. Let's just process that for for just one second here. So there's there's something being shared in the meeting. Information whatever might be is being shared. The cell phone has complete open access to this person's cognitive attention, as does the email, as does the notifications coming in from teams or whatever your I am version of choice is.
• 5:01
  We could go on and on, and yet people wonder why. Maybe they're not taking as much away from that meeting as they could be. And at the end of the day, you you described it well, the the piece of your pie and ultimately within control capacity, you have 100%, right? That's all you have. It's funny, you don't have 100% for a task and 100% for task B, you have 100% total.
• 5:24
  Yeah. So when you take that scenario, you've got four different input sources that you're trying to, you know, direct attention towards. At most, the best split you can add is a 25% potential capacity. And that's if you work balance on each one. So I know we can't read people's minds, but from your perspective, why are people choosing to function that way so commonly?
• 5:51
  I mean, unfortunately it does make you feel like you're accomplishing. Yes. You feel like you're getting a lot done because there's this mentality of driving in chaos when there's a lot going on around you and you're able to juggle all the balls. Then you feel like I'm doing something right, right, right. And it's and that's a great way to put it.
• 6:12
  Like that language of juggling the ball. So like it's as if keeping balls in the air is the goal. And I don't know that it really is. Right. Like I mean I think if you're a very very active that's the thing is as that great John Wooden quote from long ago when when he said, don't confuse activity for progress.
• 6:31
  Yeah. You just because you're doing a bunch of stuff doesn't mean you're actually making progress. And that's what's often going on when people are trying to multitask is they're spinning wheels. They're doing a whole bunch of things, but they're not really advancing anything in a meaningful way, or they aren't advancing it in a way, that they could be if they were just doing this one thing.
• 6:50
  Right. All right. So let's get into this a little bit deeper. And, you know, the biology of this is really, really important, right? We got to go to the science on this. This is certainly can't be a conversation based upon the two of us thinking that multitasking is a bad idea. You know, that's not our intention today.
• 7:05
  So. So, Gabby, what do we know about the science, specifically? Brain functioning when multitasking begins to happen for a person? Explain that for us. Well, there's a loop system, right? A feedback loop system where it's open and closed loop. And when when you're multitasking, you're never closing a loop. So, here's what happens. You are focused on a task, whatever that may be.
• 7:32
  Let's say it's right. Okay. I'm right. I'm at my whatever. I'm writing an email. That's my task at the moment. Okay. And then,
• 7:38
  they get a ping from a team's message. A coworker needs you to send them a document. So now you disengage from writing your email in close, out of focus attention. You orient yourself now to task B, which is reading this message on teams from your coworker.
• 8:01
  You have to then, you know, via the system the way in your brain to start. Right. Where is that? Like where's where is that document? Where did I put it? How do I find it? All systems get activated. You have to then go, you know, and fulfill that task. So you go find the document, you attach it, you send it close up, but now you have to go reorient to task it.
• 8:22
  So you have to refocus, get your, you know, memory recall system activated again. Where was I? I was on this message. What was my purpose? And and then try to reengage that working memory. And you can just kind of see, that's a very disgruntled system. Yes. Okay. So this is this might sound like a strange example, but as you're going through that, it's triggering a memory that really fits here.
• 8:47
  And that is, I have taught two of my three kids to drive. Right. So I've been I've been through to this twice. I have two drivers out there, mostly gone well with, you know, with with the two ones now in her 20s. But two drivers have done this twice. And I remember with both of them, this is going to make sense in the end.
• 9:05
  Let me just see this through. Okay. I remember with both of them when I was teaching them to drive, and we were out doing some practice stuff, early on in them learning to drive, anytime we would get like approach a hill. They would just slam the gas pedal on the floor just about. And I think they're there.
• 9:23
  It probably had something to do with the fact, like if you're riding a bike up a hill, which is really their only context, until they started driving, what do you need to do? You got to pedal harder, right? So they would I mean, just that thing is on the floor and, you know, to the point where, like, your head kind of shoots back and hits the headrest on the passenger seat, which was where I was.
• 9:42
  And so after a few of these, I remember telling both my girls, I'm like, hey, easy on the gas when we're going up a hill like, like you might need a little bit more, but you don't need to, you know, do that. And in the in the middle of that conversation, eventually they would ask, well, well dad, does it take does it use more gas in the car?
• 10:02
  Or if I, if I'm always like slamming on the gas. And I was like, well yes it does. It definitely does. And although that might sound like kind of a strange example of when you push the gas pedal in your vehicle really, really hard and how it uses more fuel. The same thing is happening here from in terms of if we measure focus.
• 10:24
  So if I'm back to our example, if I'm, you know, in an email doing my email, and then the notification pops up and I now task switch, that is the equivalent of like a surge of if it's pulling power, essentially it's pulling fuel out of my my focus capabilities. And now when I, when I ping over here and I switch tasks, that's the equivalent of like a withdrawal on my focus capabilities for the day.
• 10:50
  So that kind of, you know, it zaps me essentially. Whereas if I had stayed on my, my task a that I was doing, that's the equivalent of kind of a steady pull, consistency in focus, completion of a task. And ideally what you want to do is see that all the way through, complete it, close the loop, as you said, and then pivot over to your next thing.
• 11:10
  And so you can imagine over the course of just say, a few hours in your workday, if you were just going back and forth and oh, switch, switch, switch, switch, switch, you see how rapidly your fuels being zapped. That's exactly what happens. Exactly what happens. You you loop you fatigue so much more quickly, throughout the day when you're having to constantly switch back and forth because it does it takes takes energy.
• 11:33
  And, you know, there's a lot of, research on this, actually. And what it says, it's like your glucose, glucose gets depleted, when you are more quickly, at least when you are not switching because it requires that energy, it pulls so much more energy. And our brains run off of glucose. Right,
• 11:53
  I remember actually being and, going through my PhD, and then I was talking to a friend and he's, teaching chemistry, and he was saying, you know, anytime I sit down to work hard on my dissertation, I have to have, like some carbs there for me.
• 12:12
  I have to have something, that's sustenance. And we got into the conversation of why that was, because when your brain is working hard, you're using that. Yeah. I'm sorry. It. So again, this is, you know, going back to this as a prime example, you're causing more memory strain. You're depleting those glucose sources more rapidly. And then the third piece is stress.
• 12:35
  Yeah. Yeah. You're going to elicit the stress response system because you you're responding right. Stimulus. It's like a it's a stress state in part because kind of a hypervigilant thing. And that's and that's the other thing that's happening there with your brain is as you condition your brain more and more to be switching a lot, then when it begins, the way it begins to behave, is it then starts to either anticipate or look for the switch, and you struggle to justice, to stick with something, to kind of see it all the way through.
• 13:06
  And, if you are just with consistency, only, you know, let's just make up some numbers here. If I only go for five, six minutes on one thing before I'm switching to something else, and if I do that day in and day out, if I decide one day I'm going to ask my brain instead to kind of stick with something for maybe 20 30 minutes.
• 13:26
  It really can't do it. It's hard. You have to program yourself, correct? Correct.
• 13:30
  And so when you've wired your brain to be so heavily used to this task, switching, multitasking way of doing things, people begin to wonder like, well, gosh, why can't I just kind of stick with it? Well, that you've you've taught it to do this. You've conditioned your brain to have an extremely short attention span.
• 13:48
  Yeah. And unfortunately that that is the world we're living in where even young kids. Oh, yeah. You know, they, no longer can sit down and watch an hour long, two hour long Disney movie. No, it's, you know, 30s to two minutes and they're they're out of it. Yep. So yeah, I mean, I hey, I've lived that I have lived that with our kids and I, my family has heard me say this before when we do a family movie night, of course, there's an element of like, entertainment, but but I swear, part of it is like attention training, which which sounds ridiculous and crazy.
• 14:26
  It's like, no, we're going to sit down. We're going to watch the whole movie. We're not going to decide after 20 minutes. It's not entertaining and not like we're seeing it all the way through. And it is difficult at times to get people to do that. And so, yes, that's absolutely a real thing.
• 14:39
  So, you know, we've talked a little bit about the the cost on us cognitively, but what about performance?
• 14:46
  What happens to our performance when, when we start multitasking? Yeah, I would take that back to kind of that, that activity productivity dynamic. And I think the net of it, Gaby, becomes you could take a person who's who like, okay, they come into their office or whatever it might be and say they hit the ground running at 8:00 on a Tuesday morning and they go hard right up until lunch and then they get to lunch.
• 15:10
  And if someone were to kind of drop by their their workspace and say, hey, what have you gotten knocked out so far today? And if they've multitask a ton, there's a real possibility that they've chipped away at a whole bunch of things and finished nothing. Yeah. And so I think, you know, where does it show up in hit?
• 15:29
  Cognitive cost is a huge part of it. So we just perform what we call performance impact of, hey, I've like slightly moved the ball down the field or slightly move the needle from A to B. But you know what? I haven't really finished anything and it ends up people end up feeling frustrated. They feel a little bit discouraged of like, gosh, I can't quite seem to get this thing done.
• 15:49
  And, they probably won't get it done anytime soon if they keep switching. Yeah. And, you know, I go back to what we talked about at the beginning. There are some industries where multitasking is a requirement. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. It needs to be pointed out a little bit unavoidable. But I think the the message here is one that is unavoidable at least being able to pick out what is a priority right now if you know.
• 16:17
  Yeah. You know, there's emails that need to be reply to by maybe you have a presentation that afternoon and you need to get through and make some edits to your slide deck. That should probably be your first priority. Right? And then, you know, then reply to that email. And so I think that in some instances we've talked about it being unavoidable, but yeah, you've got to be able to prioritize, right?
• 16:42
  Yeah. And I'm glad you're pointing this out because it's we realize not everybody is like at their workstation all day, but lots of people aren't doing that. And so you need to be able to kind of think about and hear some of these concepts. We're going through them and figure out how they apply to what your context is, you know.
• 16:57
  So I think all of that is 100% true. However, I also know we have encountered plenty of people over the years in industries that they definitely are not. Your traditional workspace type industries. We get that, but they also excuse themselves a lot when it comes to these things. So there's a middle ground out there somewhere. Like if you're in an industry where it is tough for you to kind of block things out and just stick to one thing.
• 17:22
  All right, well then how do you get at least a little bit better in this? How do you find windows of time where you do turn some things off, or you're able to push them things out to be more productive? Because just the ongoing multitask attempt, I mean, the research is crystal clear on this. It just isn't effective.
• 17:37
  Okay, Gabby. Now as we break down some of these difficulties with this myth of multitasking, the research has also been clear from the standpoint of like, who are the people that are most susceptible to to fall into some of these trap? So what have we what is the data say is, is the the most common profile of who suffers from this?
• 17:58
  Sure. High performing high performers. Congrat. Congratulations. Yeah, you got it. Who is, you know, motivated and striving for for more growth growth mindset. These individuals fortunately, are going to be more susceptible to this. Yep.
• 18:15
  Reason being we talked about this earlier on. Busyness feels good. It feels like you're making progress, like you were doing something productive with your day.
• 18:28
  But also responsiveness. We talked about this a lot, with life in general, people, they, they like to be on top of responding. It's a degree of efficiency that is maybe conveyed when you're like, I'm going to get back to you within 24 hours. And I do that, and then sometimes I do it within two hours.
• 18:50
  Yeah. And I feel good about that because I yeah, I, I'm on top of being, you know, that potential communicator. Right. And so responsiveness I think is something that like a big role in it as well. Yeah. Which hey we're all for people being responsive. However if you want to go back to like what's the what's the ideal way to be responsive, we'll get into that a little bit later in this conversation.
• 19:14
  There's some do's and some don'ts related to how to think about responsiveness. Because if your version of responsiveness is you, you respond to the incoming email like right when you get it, the odds are that's not very multitasking friendly. Like, you know, the odds are that's, that's a switching cost that you've just made that you really want to think about.
• 19:38
  Yeah. So these high performers, they, they are more commonly doing these things. And, you know, it's unfortunate because these are people that are they're super driven, they're hungry, they're ambitious. They they want to do big things and great things in. They are. But I think the other place, this conversation is really relevant for these people as like, hey, you're leaving something on the table there you are.
• 20:00
  Really leaving some things out there from a focus and attention standpoint that you could be even you could be even better at what you're doing with some adjustments. Yeah. Yeah. The the emphasis on quantity over quality is what you're saying. Show up is you become more focused on getting things done quickly. Yeah. You're sacrificing quality. Yeah.
• 20:24
  You're going to start to see errors come up. Little, little mistakes here and there that, or just oversights, right. Likely wouldn't have happened had you been devoting. Yeah. 10% more of your attention on this task and not on the secondary task. Right? Yeah. The errors thing is a big deal. It's a big, big deal because you're so you're on your tasks, which you're more likely to be making those mistakes.
• 20:50
  Okay. So we got the high performers making their their mistake here. They're getting into this stuff. What are some other performance costs whether we're talking about the high performers or not. What are some other expected performance cost Gabbie that we see. So one that's very common in the literature is shallow work. And and what this is described as is a lack of depth and intentionality behind the work that you're doing and a lack of problem solving.
• 21:18
  You're just really surface level in the work that you're doing. Again, leads to oversights, leads to arrogance. Yep.
• 21:28
  And then additionally, there is the emotional reactivity. We talked about the stress response system. You know, by keeping yourself in this heightened state you are going to be more reactive. Yeah. I'm already working on 2 or 3 tasks in my office. And then yeah somebody comes and knocks at my door and has a question for me, I may snap like wow right, right.
• 21:53
  Because it can strike that person. It's like oh just one more thing or I'm already I've got heightened stress or it's that was the thing that kind of pushed me across the threshold of now I'm getting, you know, emotional or I'm really bothered about this versus if I'm kind of locked in on one thing. Still not ideal because you're going to switch.
• 22:08
  But I mean, I don't recommend ignoring the person at your door either. That's probably not the way to be.
• 22:13
  Yeah. And I think the other the other thing that shows up here is, you're you're just not as available for people from a focus standpoint. If I'm doing all these things, we'll go back to the example you just gave and someone drops by, you're not as attuned to what's happening or what they might need.
• 22:33
  And so now what we've done is we've begun to create kind of a ripple effect of, like, my choices of multitasking are now having an impact on, on someone else as well, because they're not able to get the question answered, the help of the support, whatever it might be. So that's interesting about how it can kind of begin to kind of roll downhill as well with the people on your team.
• 22:51
  Right?
• 22:52
  Okay. So let's think about this. I think we've we've established the fact that if you're doing a lot of multitasking or any multitasking, actually, you want to give this some thought, but then the next question becomes, well, okay, well then what do I what should I be doing? So if multitasking is not the path we want to be on, what are some what are some different ways to function?
• 23:11
  Let's let's knock these out here a little bit. Let's start with one. Gabby. Yeah. Yeah. This is a lot of research on chunking and time blocking when it comes to, attentional capacity. And, and and ultimately just efficiency. It's, you know, being able to dedicate 45 minutes, an hour of your time to one task before you switch, being able to fully open a loop, close the loop before you switch a task.
• 23:38
  And a lot of this comes down to, taking control back of your schedule and saying, okay, for the first 30 to 45 minutes, I'm at work. Responding to emails that I got in the 12 hours that I was away from work. And then really blocking that time off for that, one task, no notifications.
• 23:59
  Yep. Locked into that one task. Yeah. And I think by doing that the the impact is just the efficiency of right boom boom boom. You're knocking out all of these response emails whatever they might be. You've chosen a timeout a block of time for it.
• 24:15
  if you're going to start your day that way, you probably want to do one of two things that's either start a lot of your days that way of, okay, that's kind of my system that I run.
• 24:24
  Or if you're going to sometimes start that way and sometimes not start that way, put it on your calendar on the days you or so that really the whole idea here is like, we want to create the removal of choice when we come in to begin the day of like, let's have a good plan where as soon as I walk in the door, I already know what's going to happen.
• 24:41
  First, the routine of that is really, really important. So we've got the attention blocks. That's one way to do it. Another one would be what we call context batching, and this would just be stringing a lot of things together. That makes sense. And so an example would be like like kind of one thing we do here at AMP is almost all of our internal meetings are on Mondays.
• 25:03
  Yes. So we already know that, right? We already know that. Hey, we're going to have we have different meetings that fulfill different purposes. We're going to knock them all out on Monday so that as the week gets going in, it's normal for our team members to maybe be some other places as the week goes, that kind of thing.
• 25:17
  We're not we're missing less people. And then also we're not. We're creating less disruptions of like, let's all get on the same page or have a shared understanding of what needs to happen. Let's fulfill all these meeting needs that we have, and then the rest of the week can just kind of fall into place. But but stringing things together in that way is a really helpful way to just what we call batch things.
• 25:38
  Yeah, absolutely. It's a similar task. It limits, even if you are having to switch from an email to, person to person, be it still emails, right? Yeah. Right. Similar task. So yeah, context batching would be a second place to start there. And then third, I think is with the transitions being intentional, having a system in place that you know, when you are closing the loop on a task, when you complete a task, you take, you know, 1 to 2 minutes to reorients yourself intentionally on the next.
• 26:14
  And,
• 26:14
  that alone. Get your your brain a moment to acknowledge that task is done. Task B let's go into it. Yep. Open that loop. Yep. Yeah I really like the routine of that. And I've I've worked with a lot of people over the years, leaders especially who are they're running important meetings. The, the presence in the plan they're bringing to these meetings is really, really important.
• 26:39
  And so that just simple transition routines that you even mentioned are. All right, let's imagine you are you're in your office or kind of where you do your work, and there's an important meeting that you're going to be playing a key role in. It's located somewhere different. Well, my recommendation is always and we're saying it's in your building that whatever that might look like, it thoughtfully and intentionally walk slowly to the meeting.
• 27:04
  Yes. Don't be in a hurry. Gather. Do some, gather breaths while you're walking. Be very slow in, like processing your thoughts around the purpose, the goal, the way you want to show up. Use that transition time wisely so that when you enter the environment, whatever the meeting might look like, you're in a good place to to have it go the way you want it to go.
• 27:29
  It's so normal. Unfortunately for people, do the opposite of everything I just described. Come flying down the hall, going 100 miles an hour, rushing to the meeting. Heightened stress, maybe bothered about something. And then guess who gets to feel the full weight of that from that person? Everybody else in the meeting and probably don't really want to do that, but it's it becomes really difficult to avoid if you don't have the right transition.
• 27:56
  Yeah, that's and and then I think the fourth piece of advice here we would offer is practice. Practice is when you can find, you know, little moments throughout the day where you can get intentional with this, whether that's, you know, when you're having a one on one conversation, not picking up your phone intentionally. We are guilty of this.
• 28:18
  But there, right when you know your spouse or when you're having a conversation with a friend, you know, they're talking to you or maybe even you're the one talking to them and you still pick up your phone. And yeah, I said, and I know this research on this is accurate because all of my friends know if I'm on the phone with them and I'm responding to another message, that's fine.
• 28:43
  I go dead silence. Yeah. Yeah, I'm hearing right. But I'm not. I'm not there. Right. Okay. Gabby, are you responding to a message? Oh. They just ask you. How about that? Oh, they do now. They do because they know it's so. And we think we're good at it. Yeah, yeah. Hearing what they're saying. But then can tell when you're checked out.
• 29:06
  People around you can tell. So you're not as efficient at it as we think you are. Yeah. Yeah. And that but that's a great example too because that is very routine for a lot of people is if you're maybe you're at your house or wherever you might be and you're on your, you're in a conversation on your phone, you have it on speaker phone.
• 29:25
  And so you're on your phone doing something. Yeah, you're reading emails, you're sending text, whatever it might be, and like that. So that's a good point too, in that for people who are listening to this episode today and thinking like, yeah, I want to kind of make this adjustment or make that adjustment, it will take some work because these are habits.
• 29:44
  And I don't even ask you, how many of you right now are that too small for scrolling? Yes. Although if you are driving, well, listen to this. I want you to multitask.
• 29:56
  Yeah. Don't just go all in on the podcast. If you're driving down the road right now, we'd like you to do both. So that's a I guess there is an there are exceptions in here about being able to do both those things. Okay. So as we kind of move toward a close here, what about final thoughts from you, Gabby?
• 30:11
  Yeah, I think, you know, a great awareness raising point for our listeners would be to start considering where are you fragmenting your attention the most? At what point during your day do you catch yourself kind of in this chaos mode? That maybe you feel like you're driving in, but there's just so many balls up in the air and you're juggling them, but try to bring awareness to at what point in your day that's happening and how you might be able to to re reassign your focus.
• 30:42
  Yeah. I think that's great. And just like we like a lot of the conversations we have on the growth project, it all begins with raising the awareness of for each person. It's always effective to kind of maybe talk to some people, ask some people about you know if you're if you're married, ask your spouse or partner or whatever it might be of like, hey, how what do you how do you think I'm doing in this department?
• 31:05
  Yeah. Like what? What's how's it look? And you probably get some good feedback, but just get some feedback. Start somewhere and I think you'll see, some very quick returns on your efficiency and your productivity if you just push them things out. All right. So as always, we are thankful to our listeners for tuning in and we look forward to the next conversation here real soon.
• 31:29
  Take care. Take care.