Latest / Left of the Projector / Inception (2010) with John Barker

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Inception (2010) with John Barker · Left of the Projector

• 0:16
  Track 2: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Bill,
• 0:18
  Track 2: back again with another film discussion from the left.
• 0:20
  Track 2: If you'd like to support the show for as little as $3 a month,
• 0:23
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• 0:26
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• 0:32
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• 0:35
  Track 2: give us a rating and subscribe so you'll get notified of our weekly episodes
• 0:38
  Track 2: that drop every Tuesday. Now, onto the show.
• 0:46
  Track 2: This week on Left of the Projector, you are going to dream. And while you are
• 0:49
  Track 2: dreaming, you're going to dream about listening to Left of the Projector.
• 0:52
  Track 2: And while you dream about dreaming about Left of the Projector,
• 0:54
  Track 2: you'll have the greatest idea ever.
• 0:56
  Track 2: Tell everyone you know about Left of the Projector. And now you're awake and
• 0:59
  Track 2: listening to an episode on Inception, directed by Christopher Nolan.
• 1:02
  Track 2: It was a box office smash, making nearly $900 million on an estimated $160 million budget.
• 1:08
  Track 2: It stars Leonardo DiCaprio, Ken Watanabe, Joseph Gordon-Levitt,
• 1:14
  Track 2: Marion Cotillard, Elliot Page, Tom Hardy, Cillian Murphy, Tom Berenger, and Michael Caine.
• 1:21
  Track 2: With us to discuss this while we are fully awake is John Barker.
• 1:25
  Track 2: John is the co-founder and managing director of all the right movies.
• 1:29
  Track 2: And we'll be co-authoring a book by the same name and the stories and secrets
• 1:32
  Track 2: behind 25 of Hollywood's greatest films.
• 1:35
  Track 2: And of course, as always, my co-host, Evan and Ward. Welcome to the show, John.
• 1:40
  Track 3: What a lovely intro that was. Thank you very much. Very kind. Delighted to be here.
• 1:45
  Track 3: I've been a fan of your show for a while, fellas, but I first came across the Total Recall one.
• 1:50
  Track 3: I think that was the one I emailed about. And then obviously went straight from
• 1:52
  Track 3: that into Showgirls, as you would, obviously.
• 1:56
  Track 3: Hmm yeah it feels
• 1:59
  Track 3: like a transition transition and then
• 2:01
  Track 3: they were the ones that made me reach out so yeah delighted to be here um
• 2:05
  Track 3: yeah our podcast is called all the right movies where film podcasts it were
• 2:09
  Track 3: similar similar things to what you guys in some way do um similar kind of energy
• 2:13
  Track 3: i think we go very deep on the kind of behind the scenes stories like creative
• 2:16
  Track 3: decisions and that kind of thing we tell the story of hollywood one film at
• 2:20
  Track 3: a time we like to say um four of us doing it, it's not just me.
• 2:23
  Track 3: And yeah, there's a book coming in September. So if anyone wants to take a look
• 2:27
  Track 3: or have a listen, then you can find us anywhere, really.
• 2:29
  Track 2: Yeah. And of course, as always, we'll attach, you know, we'll provide links
• 2:32
  Track 2: to the show notes, all of us, you know, John's projects, as well as the book
• 2:37
  Track 2: and everything like that.
• 2:38
  Track 3: Perfect. Thank you.
• 2:39
  Track 1: Yeah. So I guess the like sort of opening question we usually ask for guests
• 2:43
  Track 1: is, what led you to choose Inception?
• 2:48
  Track 1: I know you said a couple of options, but we ended up landing on inception.
• 2:51
  Track 3: We did but.
• 2:51
  Track 1: What would what made you sort of pick that and if you have any i don't know
• 2:55
  Track 1: memories of the film it came out you know a fair amount of time ago now uh.
• 2:58
  Track 3: 2010 wasn't it yeah yeah.
• 3:00
  Track 1: So i guess what uh what led to you kind of picking it and you know any history with it.
• 3:04
  Track 3: Yeah i mean well i'm a big christopher nolan fan as many
• 3:07
  Track 3: people are obviously i think nolan kind of has this sort
• 3:10
  Track 3: of great like identity as a filmmaker where it's just
• 3:13
  Track 3: if he's kind of went what if somebody made films as spectacular
• 3:16
  Track 3: and like action-packed as someone like steven spielberg would
• 3:19
  Track 3: have the brains of a stanley kubrick film i think
• 3:22
  Track 3: that's where he kind of sits kind of very much in both those camps very unique
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  Track 3: place to be and this is my favorite by him i did
• 3:28
  Track 3: say when it came out kind of blew me away when i saw it in 2010 it
• 3:31
  Track 3: might even be my favorite film this century i would say i mean there's lots
• 3:35
  Track 3: i like but it's one of those rare things i think where you have like blockbuster
• 3:39
  Track 3: which also has some thought-provoking ideas some thought-provoking themes and
• 3:43
  Track 3: it's also got a heart as well the emotional core around cobb leaning on to caprio's
• 3:47
  Track 3: character and his kids and wanting to get home that kind of powers everything,
• 3:50
  Track 3: and saying this i might get shot down by you guys but i think this might be
• 3:55
  Track 3: the last great original blockbuster hollywood made,
• 3:59
  Track 3: Because everything as big as this is like an adaptation or a sequel or a reboot nowadays.
• 4:05
  Track 3: And I think the fact that Warner's gave Nolan, what, $160 million,
• 4:08
  Track 3: you said, to make an original idea, that just kind of doesn't happen anymore, I don't think.
• 4:13
  Track 3: But yeah, loads to talk about in terms of Nolan, which I'm always happy to do.
• 4:17
  Track 3: The huge filmmaking, the huge spectacle, and the things it has to say as well.
• 4:20
  Track 3: So this was always going to be the one I went to as soon as I saw it on your list, to be honest.
• 4:24
  Track 1: I also saw it in the theater. It's personally not my favorite Nolan film.
• 4:27
  Track 1: My favorite nola film is actually the prestige which we did an episode not long ago i mean,
• 4:33
  Track 1: that one for me just hits the most but what about you warden bill what are you
• 4:38
  Track 1: uh did you see this in the theater do you have like how does it how does it
• 4:42
  Track 1: fit in like the nolan canon i.
• 4:43
  Track 4: Don't think i saw this in theaters but like i mean it's a banger movie it's
• 4:47
  Track 4: solid it's a lot of fun um incredible blockbuster cinematography stuff like
• 4:53
  Track 4: that like i have some like things i could say but uh i'll wait until we get into it.
• 4:58
  Track 2: Yeah i saw this in the film uh in
• 5:01
  Track 2: the theaters uh i remember going to say it um it's
• 5:04
  Track 2: definitely i think it's up i mean prestige is my
• 5:08
  Track 2: it's so good it's so good film but uh i do really i do really enjoy this and
• 5:13
  Track 2: i i do think i think you know john's right you know it's like it's it's a huge
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  Track 2: blockbuster but it also has like actual like thought you know in a world in which most of these,
• 5:25
  Track 2: movies that look and do the things this movie does would be,
• 5:30
  Track 2: fast and furious like that's where the level of
• 5:33
  Track 2: intellectual depth would end you know
• 5:36
  Track 2: which is not to slight the fast and the furious movies
• 5:39
  Track 2: uh but they are worth what they are worth um for what they are um but yeah i
• 5:46
  Track 2: mean this is it's an incredibly cinematic and huge and you know epic movie but
• 5:52
  Track 2: it also has like it's like goes the opposite way as well just super deep you
• 5:56
  Track 2: know So I really, I like this movie.
• 5:58
  Track 2: And honestly, I'm kind of shocked it took me a lot, just like to rewatch it
• 6:01
  Track 2: because I haven't seen it since it's on the theaters.
• 6:03
  Track 1: Oh, wow. I had seen it maybe once. I saw it in the theater. I remember really liking it.
• 6:08
  Track 1: And then I maybe saw it once a few years after that, maybe when it came out
• 6:11
  Track 1: on DVD or something. But I hadn't seen it then, since then.
• 6:14
  Track 1: So it had been a long time since I had seen it. And I honestly, I don't know.
• 6:19
  Track 1: I wonder if you pull like most people, you ask them what their favorite Christopher
• 6:23
  Track 1: Nolan film, I wonder if it's this, or most people say Dark Knight,
• 6:27
  Track 1: or maybe they say Interstellar.
• 6:28
  Track 1: I know that has like a, I don't want to say a cult following because it was
• 6:31
  Track 1: a huge blockbuster as well, but I don't know which one people tend to like the most.
• 6:35
  Track 1: But this is, yeah, blockbuster filmmaking at its, honestly, at its best.
• 6:40
  Track 1: And no one doesn't waste a single penny of that $160 million.
• 6:44
  Track 1: It just looks really good. You watch, we say this all the time,
• 6:47
  Track 1: you watch like a Marvel movie from, you know, five or six years ago,
• 6:50
  Track 1: and the effects just don't even look that good anymore and this is just i feel like.
• 6:55
  Track 2: It's phenomenal it's flawless yeah he.
• 6:57
  Track 3: Loves his practical effects christopher nolan doesn't he uses digital but only kind of when he has to.
• 7:01
  Track 2: Yeah so much of this is so much of this is practical which and for the practical
• 7:06
  Track 2: effects that they are i mean i think practical effects always age better but
• 7:11
  Track 2: for like in the case of this and i'm not the kind of person that like automatically
• 7:17
  Track 2: poop who's like cgi and all that,
• 7:20
  Track 2: I think it has its place, but for what he uses in this,
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  Track 2: the CGI is exactly where it needs to be.
• 7:30
  Track 2: These kinds of practical effects, they're never going to age out.
• 7:32
  Track 2: They're always going to look as good. This is...
• 7:35
  Track 3: Exactly because he's.
• 7:37
  Track 2: Not he's not creating monsters and aliens he's create he's using you know practical effects to recreate.
• 7:43
  Track 3: Environments because it's so well judged it kind of well it
• 7:45
  Track 3: looks real doesn't it so as long as it looks real it'll kind of never age yeah
• 7:49
  Track 3: whereas when you see say a marvel film and you're right digital has its place
• 7:52
  Track 3: for sure marvel kind of saturate themselves in digital which means as it gets
• 7:55
  Track 3: older it'll leave quite quite quickly i think whereas nolan's stuff so well
• 8:00
  Track 3: judged about when to use digital when to use practical and this is maybe the best example of it.
• 8:04
  Track 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And for maybe anyone out there who hasn't seen Inception
• 8:08
  Track 1: in a while, obviously, we're going to have spoilers throughout this discussion.
• 8:12
  Track 1: But as like maybe a brief reminder for people about what, you know, the plot of this is.
• 8:17
  Track 1: So Leonardo DiCaprio is Dom Cobb, and he's basically, along with his partner,
• 8:22
  Track 1: Joseph Gordon-Levitt, who is Arthur, they are basically corporate espionage
• 8:27
  Track 1: thieves who go inside of people's subconscious to steal information for,
• 8:32
  Track 1: corporations we only sort of really learn about one job they start at the beginning
• 8:36
  Track 1: of the film that it ends up failing and then to the rest of the film is sort of uh,
• 8:41
  Track 1: Helping the character Sato continue to do what he wants to do,
• 8:48
  Track 1: which is to actually implant or have an inception of an idea into the subconscious
• 8:54
  Track 1: to benefit his company in the future.
• 8:55
  Track 1: And we really follow along the dreamlike sequences and times where you sort
• 9:01
  Track 1: of you're watching it. You don't know it's a it's a dream.
• 9:05
  Track 1: And one of the things that I appreciate about about Christopher Nolan's filmmaking
• 9:10
  Track 1: is so many of his movies, I think of The Prestige,
• 9:13
  Track 1: I think of Oppenheimer so many times as he kind of quote unquote give away something
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  Track 1: about the film in like an opening that's usually a flashback or something that
• 9:22
  Track 1: you discover later, but you don't understand it in the context of the film.
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  Track 1: And I think that what makes his filmmaking so good is that he hides things in
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  Track 1: plain sight, but you don't see them.
• 9:33
  Track 3: Yeah. I think he loves a big bang opening to his films, doesn't he?
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  Track 3: That's where I think you can definitely see like Spielberg. I think my favorite
• 9:39
  Track 3: is what you mentioned, Evan, the dark night, the intro to that,
• 9:41
  Track 3: the joke, our intro and the bank heist, that is incredible.
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  Track 3: It's like its own short film, but he also does this thing. I think what you
• 9:47
  Track 3: were touching on there where his openings sometimes like seem to teach the audience
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  Track 3: how to watch his films because his films are so unique narratively sometimes
• 9:55
  Track 3: he does that in Memento with all the,
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  Track 3: crazy backwards timeline stuff and in the prestige he
• 10:00
  Track 3: kind of gives away the reveal of who was doing the trick and how they
• 10:02
  Track 3: do the trick in the first minute but it's really subtle and then
• 10:05
  Track 3: inception the first shot it's cob isn't it lying on the
• 10:08
  Track 3: beach like wash up on the beach and that's the same image as the
• 10:11
  Track 3: end of the film so it kind of opens at the end so the
• 10:14
  Track 3: non-linear narratives there straight away and that's the reveal as well
• 10:17
  Track 3: because i think we also see his kids on the beach as well that's
• 10:20
  Track 3: in the very first shot so that's his main motivation and i
• 10:23
  Track 3: think the other thing the opening does which good openers tend to do is it
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  Track 3: sets our expectations i think for everything that's going
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  Track 3: to come because narratively the opening itself it moves
• 10:32
  Track 3: like an absolute rocket the spectacle is like
• 10:35
  Track 3: enormous with the water coming pouring in the walls
• 10:38
  Track 3: and stuff like that and there's enough exposition in the first what 10-15 minutes
• 10:42
  Track 3: to power like an entire film so i think it's clever because it tells us this
• 10:46
  Track 3: is an action film it'll move really quickly and you need to pay attention so
• 10:51
  Track 3: we kind of know that he tells us that without telling us just by making the
• 10:54
  Track 3: start like that as well which i think is really clever he does that quite a lot i think yeah i think.
• 10:58
  Track 2: I think this, you know, add uniquely that he, like in the prestige,
• 11:06
  Track 2: like it is very straightforward and memento.
• 11:08
  Track 2: And like, you know, a lot of those other films, it's very, you know,
• 11:11
  Track 2: like he does explain how to watch this movie and he kind of like gives it away in the beginning.
• 11:16
  Track 2: Not like reveals, but he lets you know.
• 11:20
  Track 2: I feel like the inception is the most open.
• 11:25
  Track 2: A it you can be left doubting whether that hint is the is actually giving it away in the end.
• 11:35
  Track 1: You know for i don't know that i think
• 11:38
  Track 1: when it came out i remember them doing the oscars
• 11:41
  Track 1: that following year and they you know that was sort of the big thing is like
• 11:44
  Track 1: the dream within a dream and sort of the the idea inception
• 11:47
  Track 1: of being able to you know actually enter someone's subconscious
• 11:50
  Track 1: and throughout the movie you are
• 11:53
  Track 1: often unsure of when like reality
• 11:57
  Track 1: ends and dreams begin and vice versa and you
• 12:01
  Track 1: know it's trying to help you understand that there's like these there is
• 12:04
  Track 1: the dream world and then there's the reality world and which
• 12:06
  Track 1: one is actually the real one maybe for especially for
• 12:09
  Track 1: leo dicabrio cobb's character where he later
• 12:13
  Track 1: reveals he can't even dream without entering you
• 12:16
  Track 1: know through these ways and it's both sad
• 12:20
  Track 1: to have him sort of reveal that that he can no
• 12:23
  Track 1: longer dream and then i also like think about
• 12:26
  Track 1: the deeper ideas like can he not dream physically or he can he no longer actually
• 12:30
  Track 1: dream of things he can't actually come up with any ideas for himself anymore
• 12:35
  Track 1: because all he is is being inserted into other people's you know subconscious
• 12:40
  Track 1: and their dreams and memories for himself like he doesn't even have of,
• 12:46
  Track 1: i feel like he doesn't even have a reality or a dream version of himself anymore which is kind of yeah.
• 12:52
  Track 4: I mean for cob it's even sadder than
• 12:55
  Track 4: not being able to physically dream like it's stated
• 12:58
  Track 4: in the film like that's why you got all those guys in the basement of yusuf's
• 13:02
  Track 4: fucking shop is because they can't physically dream anymore like that's the
• 13:07
  Track 4: only way they can dream now um for cob though it's not dreaming it's reliving
• 13:13
  Track 4: memories with maul yeah that's all it is yeah.
• 13:17
  Track 2: They talk so much the conversation is about
• 13:20
  Track 2: dreams and when they talk
• 13:23
  Track 2: about it you are automatically placed
• 13:28
  Track 2: to talk to think about it reflect on it as like what we talk about like dreams
• 13:33
  Track 2: like you know you go to sleep you have a dream but in the end like what they're
• 13:37
  Track 2: actually talking about is the less literal term of dream, but the metaphorical dream,
• 13:45
  Track 2: because Cobb has one dream that he wants to achieve.
• 13:50
  Track 2: And that is not, you know, and when we say like dream in this case, it's, it's,
• 13:56
  Track 2: the dream of something like of achieving something it's having something come
• 14:01
  Track 2: to fruition and that is just be with his children like at that point he just
• 14:07
  Track 2: that's his dream is to go home and be with his kids that's it.
• 14:11
  Track 3: I think it's interesting the point that ward made there about the basement scene
• 14:14
  Track 3: in mombata i like what you call the use of shop
• 14:17
  Track 3: that's quite nice but you've got all these like old fellas like paying
• 14:20
  Track 3: to come in every day presumably because they can't bear like waiting
• 14:23
  Track 3: life anymore and the guy who seems to be running things he says he
• 14:26
  Track 3: says something like the dreams become their reality who are you to say
• 14:29
  Track 3: otherwise and i think that might be one of the core arguments
• 14:32
  Track 3: of the film like is a dream worse than reality and then
• 14:35
  Track 3: that begs begs the question of kind of what is reality because it's
• 14:39
  Track 3: what our mind kind of perceives it to be isn't it so if it's a dream or
• 14:41
  Track 3: if it's real if it is what you perceive what's the
• 14:44
  Track 3: difference who are you to say otherwise i think that's kind of nolan speaking
• 14:48
  Track 3: to us there and it does explore as well because yeah you've
• 14:50
  Track 3: got mal whose dream who's chosen dreams over
• 14:54
  Track 3: reality and she couldn't find her way back she got kind of lost it seems like
• 14:57
  Track 3: and then cobb's whole arc is choosing reality or trying to to be with his kids
• 15:01
  Track 3: but then at the end it's ambiguous about what he has chosen so it seems to explore
• 15:05
  Track 3: all these different ways of looking at dreams and that kind of thing which is
• 15:08
  Track 3: just mind-blowing to me and.
• 15:10
  Track 4: I was even trying to think about like the movie too where it's like you got
• 15:14
  Track 4: corporations is just running fucking rampant with guns.
• 15:17
  Track 3: Yeah so.
• 15:18
  Track 4: Obviously this is like a very very totalitarian capitalist system and so it's
• 15:25
  Track 4: like why wouldn't people reach out to an escape into another reality that things
• 15:30
  Track 4: are so bad in the actual material one that they live in yeah.
• 15:34
  Track 2: But the only time we.
• 15:37
  Track 4: Yeah we don't get to see a lot of the world but yeah we it was just an idea i was I.
• 15:42
  Track 2: Think that ties in really perfectly with the use of shop,
• 15:49
  Track 2: because all I could think about, the only time we see corporate agents running
• 15:54
  Track 2: around with guns in reality is in Mombasa.
• 15:59
  Track 2: Right? That's their Mombasa, right? And all I could think was,
• 16:02
  Track 2: it's like, it never changes.
• 16:05
  Track 2: It's like any, the global South is just the place where white men with guns
• 16:10
  Track 2: run around shooting at each other and using it as a means of exerting their
• 16:16
  Track 2: power with no regard for the people that live there. None.
• 16:23
  Track 2: And, you know, it's just like, yeah, it makes sense that the people that live
• 16:28
  Track 2: in that place would want to leave that behind.
• 16:33
  Track 2: But largely this, and at the same time,
• 16:37
  Track 2: because the rest of it is all just in dreams, this is just people with power
• 16:42
  Track 2: making their own lives miserable and shooting at each other and using people
• 16:49
  Track 2: for their own ends when they could just not do that.
• 16:55
  Track 2: Like you could just not do that you could just,
• 17:00
  Track 2: be people that like contribute to society.
• 17:04
  Track 3: Yeah well saito who kind of employs
• 17:07
  Track 3: cob he's like obviously a big corporate businessman isn't he and his goal seems
• 17:11
  Track 3: like is just he wants to remove a competitor so it's really cynical his goals
• 17:15
  Track 3: even though he's kind of presented as the good guy in some ways and then cob's
• 17:18
  Track 3: team are basically like contractors so they only get to use their skills when
• 17:21
  Track 3: like some rich billionaire pays them to yeah.
• 17:25
  Track 4: It's capitalist infighting with mercenaries but dreams instead of.
• 17:28
  Track 3: Bombs which.
• 17:29
  Track 2: I mean hey but honestly for the most part i guess people are making out better on that than.
• 17:33
  Track 1: In the real world you say dream you say dreams instead
• 17:36
  Track 1: of bomb but really it's the thing that they need to do to be able to maybe prevent
• 17:42
  Track 1: i don't want to like prevent bombing so he wants to take over this organization
• 17:47
  Track 1: set to basically have a global control over i don't does it is it a realist
• 17:52
  Track 1: uh real estate company i forget what it did they ever say.
• 17:55
  Track 3: Engineering.
• 17:56
  Track 1: Oh, energy, right. So basically to control the world's energy.
• 18:00
  Track 4: And it's like his main competitor. Yeah, it's like his main competitor.
• 18:03
  Track 4: He basically wants a monopoly.
• 18:04
  Track 1: What will that will then do by being the global controller of energy would just
• 18:09
  Track 1: then lead to both prevent and lead to more violence because then it's going
• 18:14
  Track 1: to have people fighting over the costs of that energy.
• 18:17
  Track 1: Just the the stranglehold on it you know one person
• 18:20
  Track 1: or two people shouldn't own the world's energy
• 18:24
  Track 1: or any of these things they should in reality be you know co-owned by everyone
• 18:28
  Track 1: so you can have equal access to it but yeah in a very cynical and you said john
• 18:31
  Track 1: like that you're sort of supposed to view him as sort of the quote-unquote good
• 18:35
  Track 1: guy when he is is nowhere near you know he is very cynical and evil yeah.
• 18:41
  Track 3: Well the job that hired for as well cobb's team like planting this idea so deep
• 18:45
  Track 3: in someone's subconscious that they kind of believe it's their own idea that's
• 18:49
  Track 3: almost some like futuristic form of like advertising or propaganda or something
• 18:54
  Track 3: if that was a real thing you can guarantee corporations will be tapping right
• 18:57
  Track 3: into that and selling things to people.
• 19:00
  Track 1: I mean wow i feel like we sort of this.
• 19:03
  Track 2: Is the torture.
• 19:04
  Track 1: Nexus this.
• 19:05
  Track 2: Is the torture nexus they will be made.
• 19:07
  Track 1: Well i mean it's not
• 19:10
  Track 1: so far and different from other sort
• 19:14
  Track 1: of uh dystopian so we don't like maybe think
• 19:17
  Track 1: of this film as like a dystopian movie we sort
• 19:20
  Track 1: of think of it you know science fiction action whatever
• 19:23
  Track 1: but it really is like a dystopian world where people who
• 19:26
  Track 1: control a certain technology can insert and
• 19:30
  Track 1: steal information from you and i mean
• 19:33
  Track 1: i don't know if i put this directly in like the notes but it's not
• 19:36
  Track 1: that far removed from the idea of you know
• 19:39
  Track 1: ai functions that are essentially scouring the internet and stealing you know
• 19:43
  Track 1: studio league studio ghibli movies and their art and all these things and people's
• 19:49
  Track 1: you know in personal intellectual property and then selling that to the masses
• 19:54
  Track 1: as like a copy of this in some like uh,
• 19:57
  Track 1: cynical way so it is kind of a dystopia i.
• 20:01
  Track 4: Mean it was literally created as a military training tool so that soldiers could
• 20:06
  Track 4: actually kill each other and experience wounds in physical damage.
• 20:11
  Track 1: Yeah i think.
• 20:12
  Track 3: Doesn't it yeah it feels to me like i mean we don't really find out but it feels
• 20:16
  Track 3: to me like the technology is still quite new and it hasn't really got out to
• 20:19
  Track 3: the masses yet but it feels like if you move in this world forward 10 years
• 20:23
  Track 3: it would have just completely changed everything this technology that's how it feels to me i.
• 20:27
  Track 2: Feel like it has to be somewhat widespread or else you wouldn't have a.
• 20:32
  Track 3: Basement full of people on it.
• 20:33
  Track 1: But yeah.
• 20:35
  Track 4: Basement full of people you got college courses on this shit yeah like.
• 20:39
  Track 1: Well is the college course you got ma.
• 20:41
  Track 4: And dom in their free time just doing it.
• 20:44
  Track 1: Is the yeah is the college technology or is it simply just on dreams and then
• 20:50
  Track 1: like the ella pages character then learns that this is actually something that
• 20:54
  Track 1: they can can do adrian her character in it i don't know no i ariadna sorry you're right you're right.
• 21:02
  Track 2: It's it's a hard name to i.
• 21:04
  Track 1: Don't know but yeah i mean you're right probably in 10 years the you know the
• 21:09
  Track 1: one of these sito could then take control of this technology and sell it you
• 21:13
  Track 1: know or um employ an entire army of people who can do what leonardo dicaprio
• 21:19
  Track 1: is going to do to be able to go around the world and implanting ideas,
• 21:22
  Track 1: you know, have them forget about.
• 21:24
  Track 4: No, he's going to hire Cobb to train an AI system so that he can mass employ
• 21:29
  Track 4: AI systems to inset people at scale.
• 21:34
  Track 1: Yeah, that's why it is kind of a dystopia, right?
• 21:37
  Track 2: I can see that.
• 21:38
  Track 3: Yeah well that kind of capitalist angle i think that's why nolan kind of structures
• 21:41
  Track 3: cobb's team like a it's like a film crew isn't it where you've got like cobb's
• 21:45
  Track 3: kind of the director he's the one with the vision then arthur's the producer
• 21:49
  Track 3: he does the research he kind of pulls it all together,
• 21:52
  Track 3: arianna's like i guess a production designer because she sort of builds the
• 21:55
  Track 3: world eames is obviously the actor because he's like literally pretending to
• 21:58
  Track 3: be different people and then site was the money man the studio
• 22:01
  Track 3: and then so i think it's like a another angle
• 22:04
  Track 3: is that it's a film about a group of artists who only get to use their skills
• 22:07
  Track 3: and their kind of craft when a corporation pays them to i mean nolan understands
• 22:11
  Track 3: that i'm not sure nolan's commenting on hollywood maybe but i think he's based
• 22:15
  Track 3: a team around that kind of structure because that's the one he knows so that's
• 22:19
  Track 3: kind of there as well from a capitalist point of view i think yeah.
• 22:22
  Track 2: Ward you wanna what you're talking about propaganda.
• 22:24
  Track 4: Yeah no i don't think it's that dystopian the idea of
• 22:27
  Track 4: inception i mean like and i'll i'll open
• 22:30
  Track 4: up and be honest i wasn't the first one to have this idea i looked it up i came
• 22:34
  Track 4: to it independently though uh but no like the process of inception is very much
• 22:41
  Track 4: like how hegemonic control is implanted and normalized you know capitalist hegemonic control,
• 22:48
  Track 4: but instead of like hot dudes coming into our dreams it's advertisements media
• 22:53
  Track 4: education systems and news propaganda constantly telling us what to think and
• 22:57
  Track 4: how to think it i think the film captures incredibly well the fact of how and
• 23:01
  Track 4: when hegemonic control is the most effective,
• 23:04
  Track 4: which is when the subject internalizes the will and desire of the ruling class
• 23:07
  Track 4: and experiences it as free will.
• 23:11
  Track 4: Like, as Gramsci would say, like, the battleground for common sense,
• 23:14
  Track 4: it's whatever the culture has decided is common sense.
• 23:18
  Track 4: But people act like, no, no, no, that is common sense. It's like,
• 23:21
  Track 4: no, no, that's what you've been taught.
• 23:23
  Track 4: And that's how they maintain these systems of control. And the process of Inception
• 23:27
  Track 4: mirrors that process beautifully.
• 23:31
  Track 2: When you're in a dream, you don't question that dream.
• 23:35
  Track 2: No matter how outlandish it
• 23:38
  Track 2: may be like you never question what's
• 23:41
  Track 2: happening and in reality it's the same kind of what when
• 23:45
  Track 2: we talk about gaining class consciousness like waking up
• 23:48
  Track 2: and it's the same kind of thing it's like you gain
• 23:52
  Track 2: class consciousness you start to see the systems you wake up and
• 23:55
  Track 2: you go wait a minute that that actually doesn't make sense that
• 23:58
  Track 2: actually those pieces don't fit together that actually
• 24:02
  Track 2: is illogical it is irrational to think through the through these capitalist
• 24:06
  Track 2: like mentalities the same way like you wake up a dream and you're like wait
• 24:11
  Track 2: a minute crocodiles don't fly with farts it's like you know i can't actually pick.
• 24:19
  Track 4: On myself by my bootstraps.
• 24:20
  Track 2: Yeah exactly yeah that's impossible well.
• 24:25
  Track 1: The like going to like back to the sort of their goal in the movie.
• 24:31
  Track 1: I mean, their initial job and then later job is, you know, first is to steal
• 24:35
  Track 1: intellectual property from a corporation.
• 24:37
  Track 1: And that seems to probably be what they're constantly doing over and over. And then...
• 24:40
  Track 2: But it's not even the job. That's an audition.
• 24:43
  Track 1: Oh, you think that's how you view it?
• 24:44
  Track 2: That's all that is.
• 24:47
  Track 2: The first job is an audition. It's an audition. That's like the whole thing.
• 24:50
  Track 2: Saito's like, he comes with the job and it's like to see, to prove.
• 24:55
  Track 2: I mean, I think he even says, it's like, oh yeah, you've proven like, you know.
• 24:59
  Track 1: Yes. Yes.
• 25:00
  Track 4: He's like, you're as good as they say you are. A dream within a dream. Like, oh shit.
• 25:03
  Track 1: So do you think that was, do you still, do you then not see them having done
• 25:07
  Track 1: this multiple times before?
• 25:09
  Track 4: Oh, they definitely have.
• 25:10
  Track 2: So clearly, yeah.
• 25:10
  Track 4: They reference a ton of other jobs.
• 25:11
  Track 1: Yeah, I mean, that's why they're in Moobossi getting chased.
• 25:13
  Track 4: They have names for bits, like thieves do, like in Ocean's Eleven.
• 25:18
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 25:18
  Track 4: Like, they got, we're going to do a Mr. Charles.
• 25:21
  Track 2: True.
• 25:22
  Track 1: Okay, that, yeah, that's.
• 25:24
  Track 2: Eames, Eames at one point is like, I have the perfect lady for this.
• 25:28
  Track 2: Like, yeah, no, they've done it plenty of times.
• 25:31
  Track 4: Yeah. It's like, oh, I need a forger. And it's like, oh, somebody,
• 25:34
  Track 4: that's what they call somebody who can, like, impersonate other people in dreams.
• 25:38
  Track 4: Like, they got names for, like, specific types of thieves.
• 25:41
  Track 1: And Yusef is the chemist for that. That's why they go to Mubasa to begin with, right?
• 25:44
  Track 1: To find him because he can put you in a psychological state with drugs that
• 25:49
  Track 1: make it so it's harder to wake up so you can go like into the dream within a dream within a dream.
• 25:54
  Track 4: But not fuck with the ear. Pretty impressive.
• 25:57
  Track 2: It's very interesting. It's like some of these people, it's like they've developed.
• 26:01
  Track 4: I do like when they push Joseph Gordon-Levitt over and over again in the chair.
• 26:04
  Track 4: I thought that was really funny.
• 26:07
  Track 2: It's like it implies that like different people have different skills.
• 26:11
  Track 2: It's like different people that do this have like basically like superpowers
• 26:14
  Track 2: it's like ains is like you know capable of like manipulating reality to a greater
• 26:19
  Track 2: degree in you know the dream state,
• 26:23
  Track 2: ariadne can like construct a world it's it's it is an interesting concept.
• 26:28
  Track 1: Yeah i i can't believe i i completely missed that that i mean i know i remember
• 26:32
  Track 1: that you know that saito's in that dream but i didn't in my head wasn't thinking
• 26:36
  Track 1: of it as being an audition to
• 26:39
  Track 1: prove that they could do you know do the job for him of actually you know.
• 26:44
  Track 3: Imp well the thing about this job is that it's inception isn't it because normally
• 26:48
  Track 3: they go into people's dreams and just take secrets this is about planting an
• 26:51
  Track 3: idea so this is that's why this is new i think yeah.
• 26:54
  Track 2: Yeah and it is they do kind of like it does kind of and.
• 26:59
  Track 4: It's not even that new of an idea because i mean like saito talks about it.
• 27:03
  Track 2: Eems when.
• 27:05
  Track 4: Cod meets up with him in mubasa it's like oh yeah no totally possible it just
• 27:08
  Track 4: gotta be like it's not the newest idea it just seems.
• 27:12
  Track 2: Rather really hard really.
• 27:14
  Track 3: Hard to do but you can see it isn't it he says it's perfectly possible it's
• 27:17
  Track 3: just very difficult bloody difficult I think he says yeah I.
• 27:20
  Track 4: Think that's why they mostly rely on extraction.
• 27:22
  Track 2: Yeah I do think that like what you were saying John about like how like Nolan
• 27:26
  Track 2: sets it up like and we've talked about this before like how a lot of Nolan's work is,
• 27:34
  Track 2: so about like art and making art it's like yeah,
• 27:39
  Track 2: very personal in a very deep way um
• 27:43
  Track 2: and like i think it's you know i yeah i
• 27:46
  Track 2: want to like to i want to talk about like all like the ways in which this is
• 27:49
  Track 2: like you know they can be interpreted from a leftist perspective but like i
• 27:54
  Track 2: think that like overwhelmingly like you are correct and he is making a movie
• 27:59
  Track 2: about his experience as an artist like that's what it is i.
• 28:03
  Track 3: Think he usually is isn't he i think northern's so obsessed with like just the idea.
• 28:07
  Track 2: Of creativity.
• 28:07
  Track 3: That all these films are about that, like the prestige, what he relates to there.
• 28:11
  Track 3: It's about 19th century magicians, but it's the fact that creating things,
• 28:14
  Track 3: he massively relates to that, I think.
• 28:16
  Track 3: And then here, Ariadne says, when she comes back, when Cobb says,
• 28:20
  Track 3: she'll come back because she can't accept the real world now.
• 28:22
  Track 3: And she does, and she calls what she was doing with the architecture, pure creation.
• 28:26
  Track 3: I think that's Nolan. That's Nolan's words, I think.
• 28:29
  Track 1: Yeah.
• 28:29
  Track 2: Yeah. It's so much about like being an artist and creating things.
• 28:35
  Track 3: Yeah.
• 28:35
  Track 2: But then also like being...
• 28:38
  Track 2: Is shackled to a system that wants to benefit from those things.
• 28:46
  Track 2: And yet at the same time, I also think, especially again, you know,
• 28:49
  Track 2: Nolan historically is pretty closed mouth on a lot of ways.
• 28:53
  Track 2: But in recent years, he has said some certain things which have revealed some
• 28:58
  Track 2: prejudices and biases towards certain class systems.
• 29:04
  Track 2: Um and i do think that like sito really kind of gives that game away that he
• 29:08
  Track 2: does think there are good billionaires because he does want you to think like
• 29:13
  Track 2: sito's like the good guy like yeah,
• 29:16
  Track 2: like he very much i do think that it gives the game away that no one thinks
• 29:20
  Track 2: like yeah some billionaires we actually do need billionaires and some of them
• 29:22
  Track 2: are good they're good guys they have to fund his films right yeah well.
• 29:27
  Track 1: And then he's.
• 29:27
  Track 4: Got he's got a fun he's got a fun the dream heist and he's a really good guy
• 29:31
  Track 4: for holding up his end of the bargain you know the deal that he fucking made
• 29:34
  Track 4: after he basically coerced Cobb into the job.
• 29:38
  Track 1: Well and then you're talking about how the movies all are sort of about the
• 29:42
  Track 1: you know the art and in the and someone trying to do I mean I think Oppenheimer
• 29:46
  Track 1: is sort of like the culmination of that because Oppenheimer is creating an idea
• 29:51
  Track 1: that then leads to literal mass murder and destruction because once the idea is sort of,
• 29:58
  Track 1: comes out the art is created you don't no
• 30:01
  Track 1: longer have control over it in the you know in our world anymore and you know
• 30:06
  Track 1: it's like uh i'm trying to like think of his other movies where that fits into
• 30:11
  Track 1: i think even batman the series you know batman as a as his persona you know
• 30:16
  Track 1: as a good billionaire quote-unquote too so yeah.
• 30:19
  Track 3: Well his batman as well is all very much about creating like an identity it's
• 30:23
  Track 3: all went through the films about how he's a symbol for things and that relates
• 30:27
  Track 3: to Nolan creating identities for his films and things he creates,
• 30:30
  Track 3: I think creating a brand kind of, I've never really seen Batman looked at in that way before,
• 30:34
  Track 3: but Nolan always kind of brings, I think just what, I don't think he's always
• 30:37
  Track 3: necessarily making a point, I think he's just what he understands,
• 30:40
  Track 3: he understands that the relationship between
• 30:42
  Track 3: a film crew and a studio so he kind of structures inception like that i'm not
• 30:47
  Track 3: i'm not saying he's necessarily saying critiquing it i think it's just i understand
• 30:50
  Track 3: that so i can make that work but and i think he just brings that to everything he does.
• 30:53
  Track 1: Yeah yeah and i think we were talking sort of in our like our
• 30:56
  Track 1: group chat about this before is i think you just mentioned
• 30:59
  Track 1: it too bill and like that's actually the plot of this movie is where lernardo
• 31:02
  Track 1: caprio wants to go home he wants to go back to his
• 31:05
  Track 1: reality that he lost be with his children and sort
• 31:08
  Track 1: of have this sort of you know quote-unquote happy ending and it seems like a
• 31:12
  Track 1: lot of uh the parts of nolan films is the idea of also sort of finding their
• 31:18
  Track 1: way home like even the prestige you would say is like that i think a lot of
• 31:22
  Track 1: them have that same feeling so it's really nolan injecting this into these i.
• 31:27
  Track 4: Was i was joking that a lot of nolan films.
• 31:29
  Track 1: Are yeah sorry ward has crazy things.
• 31:32
  Track 4: Man does crazy things just to get home, but include the fact that the aesthetic
• 31:38
  Track 4: of the movie is overwhelmingly like Ikea catalog slash airport lounge,
• 31:43
  Track 4: because that's Nolan's aesthetic.
• 31:48
  Track 2: The Prestige is the only one that breaks that.
• 31:51
  Track 4: Prestige breaks that one pretty good, but this one is like, oh,
• 31:54
  Track 4: it's on exhibit in this. I love it.
• 31:58
  Track 2: I mean, it's beautiful.
• 31:59
  Track 4: It's beautiful. I'm not going to say that it's not beautiful,
• 32:02
  Track 4: but it is so Nolan's aesthetic of airport like premium airport lounge and it's
• 32:08
  Track 4: throughout the movie and I love it.
• 32:10
  Track 2: That like very like modernist, you know.
• 32:15
  Track 4: Aesthetic.
• 32:16
  Track 1: I like it though.
• 32:17
  Track 4: Yeah no i like it too but like god that is his aesthetic.
• 32:20
  Track 3: It definitely is i think the idea of going home is something that's in a
• 32:23
  Track 3: lot of his films because i mean some of them it's like literal like interstellar is
• 32:26
  Track 3: literally about getting back home dun kirk is about literally getting
• 32:29
  Track 3: back home so he's not even hiding it there here he's getting
• 32:32
  Track 3: back home but home here is obviously to it's not
• 32:35
  Track 3: a place it's his children and even more specifically i
• 32:37
  Track 3: think his children's faces but it's like he can't even remember what they look
• 32:40
  Track 3: like anymore because we can't see them either so the
• 32:43
  Track 3: entire film is like structured around yeah until the end exactly
• 32:46
  Track 3: yeah so what does that mean but it's all
• 32:49
  Track 3: structured around him like earning the right to look at
• 32:52
  Track 3: his kids properly it seems like that's what he's fighting for and that's the
• 32:55
  Track 3: emotional core behind all of his motivations and what backs it up as well the
• 32:59
  Track 3: whole going home thing is that Cobb's first name is Dom and in lots of languages
• 33:03
  Track 3: coming from like I think it's Latin Domus Dom means home so nolan's even put
• 33:07
  Track 3: this motivation right there in his name yeah.
• 33:10
  Track 2: Damn nolan to me is one of those like directors who like.
• 33:19
  Track 2: Very much you know we talk a lot about like you know separating the art for
• 33:22
  Track 2: the artist but also like um how culture and the society the material conditions
• 33:30
  Track 2: you live in the society you live in,
• 33:32
  Track 2: fundamentally affects what you create and how it is impossible to separate those things.
• 33:37
  Track 2: And it's like Nolan on the surface, like the more we talk about it,
• 33:41
  Track 2: it's like, it's almost like, like how you said, John, it's like he,
• 33:45
  Track 2: you know, he's making things from like the perspective of what he understands. And it's like, yeah,
• 33:50
  Track 2: It almost seems like at a certain level, like Nolan makes films on an unconscious level.
• 33:55
  Track 2: It's just like pure aid streaming and like not even aid, but like the subconscious,
• 34:00
  Track 2: like streaming out and like being shaped as he goes.
• 34:04
  Track 2: And it's like, but then you look at it and you have to, like you said about
• 34:08
  Track 2: going home and it's like all those things.
• 34:10
  Track 2: It's like, it's struggling against systems that want to control and all that.
• 34:15
  Track 2: It's like, and then you have to look at that and realize that even if he isn't
• 34:20
  Track 2: deliberately telling a certain thing,
• 34:23
  Track 2: he is still reflecting the reality of the situation and how people's lives are
• 34:29
  Track 2: controlled and manipulated and, um,
• 34:33
  Track 2: managed by forces beyond their control.
• 34:37
  Track 2: And it's like, you can't help but have those things be reflected in what you create.
• 34:41
  Track 3: Here then where we're talking about like Saito being the sort of bad guy slash
• 34:45
  Track 3: good guy depending on how we look at it do you think Nolan's making a point
• 34:49
  Track 3: about that or you think he's got the billionaire being in the kind of funder
• 34:52
  Track 3: just because that's kind of how films tend to be or do you think he's making a point about that I.
• 34:56
  Track 4: Think it's a bit of like a self-reflection like projection where it's like yes
• 35:00
  Track 4: it is part of the art making process where you need a funded billionaire but
• 35:04
  Track 4: also like just understanding the reality of the world.
• 35:07
  Track 3: Where it's.
• 35:07
  Track 4: Like rich people can make things happen so it would be like rich corporate espionage
• 35:13
  Track 4: is using this technology and that's how you can make a cool heist film i.
• 35:17
  Track 2: Think that his placement of him is an indication of that and a reflection of
• 35:22
  Track 2: that but his depiction of him inherently as a good guy is a.
• 35:28
  Track 3: Reflection of.
• 35:28
  Track 2: No one's own prejudices and internal and internal biases.
• 35:32
  Track 3: What do you think it's conscious or subconscious i.
• 35:35
  Track 2: Don't know what's the dream.
• 35:36
  Track 3: Yeah,
• 35:42
  Track 3: yeah fair enough.
• 35:43
  Track 1: It's it's it's
• 35:46
  Track 1: funny you say that because then i think because then you think about the
• 35:49
  Track 1: movie too where you're watching the dream
• 35:52
  Track 1: versions that are happening in the film and like then the dream within the dream
• 35:55
  Track 1: within the dream and you no longer have an idea of what is it that they're creating
• 36:00
  Track 1: as part of this world or is it what is it that the dreamer is actually creating
• 36:05
  Track 1: and it's just the idea of having a dream within a dream is so insane to me because,
• 36:11
  Track 1: how does the second dreamer's dream impact you know the first person and it's
• 36:17
  Track 1: i don't know it's this uh i could go you know you could go back and forth it's just it's so they.
• 36:22
  Track 4: Kind of they kind of explain it a little bit where it's like that's like why
• 36:27
  Track 4: when on the third dream like the dream within a dream within a dream they went into.
• 36:32
  Track 1: Fisher's head.
• 36:33
  Track 4: But lied to him saying we're going into the other guy's head so that he'd help him break into.
• 36:38
  Track 1: His own head true yeah but.
• 36:40
  Track 3: I always do think that i've always thought watching this that you mentioned
• 36:43
  Track 3: there ward about how it's he's making a heist film which he absolutely is and
• 36:47
  Track 3: i think i've always thought of all the things that are going on with the technology
• 36:51
  Track 3: and the concepts and the themes and everything i think his aim at the end of
• 36:56
  Track 3: it here is to make a great heist film because he loves James Bond, doesn't he?
• 36:59
  Track 3: I think this is the closest he's going to get to a Bond film and he kind of knows it.
• 37:02
  Track 3: You see it at the end with the snow, it's on Her Majesty's Secret Service.
• 37:06
  Track 3: It's exactly the same. It's like the same.
• 37:09
  Track 4: Yeah, I saw an interview with him where he was talking like he was working on
• 37:13
  Track 4: this movie for like 10 years or some shit.
• 37:16
  Track 4: And he originally like the original idea was like, I want a heist movie set
• 37:20
  Track 4: in like, like in dreams, like a dream heist movie, but it took him like six
• 37:25
  Track 4: years to try to figure out how to like get the story to where it needed to be.
• 37:28
  Track 3: Yeah I think after the dark night because I was so successful Warner's basically
• 37:31
  Track 3: just went whatever you want here's the money go make it.
• 37:35
  Track 2: Yeah so you don't you don't think they would give him a.
• 37:39
  Track 3: Bounce film I think they didn't offer him it and he wasn't interested because
• 37:41
  Track 3: he wanted to have final cut yeah he said no,
• 37:43
  Track 3: yeah he said.
• 37:44
  Track 1: No because of the final cut.
• 37:45
  Track 3: Yeah he said he wanted final cut yeah which he's never going to get on a bond
• 37:48
  Track 3: film are you so wait yeah warner.
• 37:50
  Track 2: Brothers gave him a give him a final cut on batman i don't because that's.
• 37:55
  Track 3: No no batman begins because he's kind of a nobody then really wasn't he compared
• 37:58
  Track 3: to now i think i think he got.
• 38:00
  Track 1: It for like interstellar and probably tenet and oppenheimer i bet he got final cut.
• 38:05
  Track 3: Oh yeah yeah 100 i get them for that i think they went to nolan for bond the
• 38:10
  Track 3: the new one with the deal is doing it i think i think they went to Nolan first,
• 38:14
  Track 3: and he wanted a final cut because he's in a position to ask for it now,
• 38:17
  Track 3: but I mean, you're never going to get it, are you?
• 38:19
  Track 2: Yeah no not with amazon.
• 38:20
  Track 3: Not with bond that's.
• 38:21
  Track 1: Right isn't amazon studios.
• 38:22
  Track 3: Well yeah yeah i think it is now yeah i.
• 38:25
  Track 1: Would love to see a his bond movie though that would be pretty.
• 38:27
  Track 3: Oh me too what i'd love to see them do was to say right
• 38:30
  Track 3: you can have final cut but what we want is a trilogy go and do what you want
• 38:34
  Track 3: cast who you want it's going to be standalone three films and then we'll start
• 38:37
  Track 3: again yeah and just do what you want with it cast cast your bond cast your em
• 38:41
  Track 3: cast all those people christopher nolan's bond a trilogy it would make a fortune
• 38:44
  Track 3: and it would be really interesting to see what he would do oh.
• 38:47
  Track 2: Yeah i mean the the batman films defined batman for people like that watch the
• 38:53
  Track 2: as like a person like i read comics for years before that and it was a huge
• 38:57
  Track 2: batman fan and i saw like how that like even in like in the comic world like
• 39:02
  Track 2: how that came to define the character,
• 39:04
  Track 2: so strongly for years.
• 39:07
  Track 3: But he takes influences from the comics as well doesn't he because i think when
• 39:11
  Track 3: he came to batman something that he must have thought him and david goya when
• 39:15
  Track 3: they wrote it because they've got all these decades and decades and decades
• 39:18
  Track 3: of great batman stories and hardly anything on the big screen must have thought
• 39:21
  Track 3: we've got this absolute gold mine here that we can just pick the best bits from
• 39:25
  Track 3: and that's kind of what they did in lots of ways i.
• 39:27
  Track 2: Mean i wouldn't say hardly anything on the big screen there was yeah quite a few batman films.
• 39:31
  Track 3: Like four maybe four films but yeah but not these storylines 80 years worth of comics yeah.
• 39:37
  Track 4: George clooney had nipples in one.
• 39:39
  Track 1: Right that's true yeah you're right you had the uh the batman batman returns.
• 39:43
  Track 3: Batman forever.
• 39:43
  Track 1: And what's the other.
• 39:45
  Track 3: One? Yeah, yeah, it's the five.
• 39:46
  Track 2: Don't forget the Adam West Batman film.
• 39:48
  Track 1: I mean, you probably could have multiple episodes on all of the sort of Easter eggs.
• 39:53
  Track 1: Like if you go on YouTube, you can look up videos of all the little Easter eggs
• 39:57
  Track 1: and names and the way that he, you know, you said how his name is Dom, which means going home.
• 40:02
  Track 1: All of the things that no one does. like one thing that i
• 40:05
  Track 1: appreciate and pretty much every one of his films is the
• 40:08
  Track 1: attention to the detail of everything the names of the characters things that
• 40:13
  Track 1: they're doing in it you know the the uh you know things that you probably don't
• 40:17
  Track 1: even notice in the background of films that are in the in the film as you're
• 40:21
  Track 1: watching it and this one is no different i don't have all of the loads yeah i think.
• 40:27
  Track 3: There's a wall i think one of them is that if you take all the main characters
• 40:30
  Track 3: first names are names like dom arthur eames all of them put them together it
• 40:35
  Track 3: spells out dreams i think.
• 40:36
  Track 1: That's right get the.
• 40:39
  Track 3: Fuck out i think so i think it's right yeah.
• 40:42
  Track 1: Yeah actually d r yeah it does,
• 40:49
  Track 1: i mean depends upon the order you put them in i guess and then this is another
• 40:52
  Track 1: thing i saw this one on on imdb it was that when you see when they played this
• 40:57
  Track 1: movie on cable they the amount of time that they listed for the film was like two days, 40 hours.
• 41:04
  Track 1: I can't remember the exact amount, which is how long the movie would be if it
• 41:08
  Track 1: were taking place in the dream version.
• 41:10
  Track 1: Because the reality moves that yeah.
• 41:11
  Track 3: Because the song that they play the is pf
• 41:14
  Track 3: one uh john noisian regret a rianne
• 41:17
  Track 3: that's two minutes 28 seconds long that whole song and
• 41:21
  Track 3: the film is two hours 28 minutes long it's done intentionally there's
• 41:24
  Track 3: loads of stuff there's a bit there's a bit at the end as well i don't know if you've noticed but when
• 41:27
  Track 3: the um when the credits roll it comes up with inception and
• 41:30
  Track 3: then as you watch the whole credits it goes you see inception flash up again
• 41:34
  Track 3: in the middle and then inception flashes up again at the end so it's like going
• 41:37
  Track 3: back up the dream levels the three dream levels and then at the end of the credits
• 41:41
  Track 3: he plays nausea and regret as well so it's like he's waking you up from the
• 41:45
  Track 3: dream at the end of the film it's ridiculous i.
• 41:47
  Track 1: Did i did not notice that or.
• 41:48
  Track 3: Didn't know.
• 41:49
  Track 1: About that that's that's.
• 41:50
  Track 3: So much in there yeah well.
• 41:51
  Track 1: I mean that's actually maybe a good uh segue to talk about the ending and that's
• 41:56
  Track 1: like been was debated for many years so you know they finally the culmination
• 42:01
  Track 1: of it is that they through almost sheer luck and determination.
• 42:05
  Track 1: They're able to not only go through the three dreams, the dream within the dream
• 42:09
  Track 1: within the dream, but then they have to go into the sort of the world below
• 42:12
  Track 1: that where you can just be lost and finally are able to succeed.
• 42:16
  Track 1: And then it takes you way back to the very initial scene on the beach where
• 42:19
  Track 1: Leonardo DiCaprio goes to see Saito as this old man and is able to,
• 42:25
  Track 1: you know, fix things the way he needs to.
• 42:28
  Track 1: And then he wakes up, he comes back as if they're on, you know,
• 42:31
  Track 1: they're on the plane, they get off the plane,
• 42:32
  Track 1: they're all sort of looking at each other, you know we yeah we did it you finally
• 42:35
  Track 1: get to go home and you see him go into his house and you
• 42:38
  Track 1: see him go out to speak to his children and he spins the
• 42:41
  Track 1: totem his little top and you don't
• 42:44
  Track 1: see it stop and maybe we should have mentioned earlier is
• 42:47
  Track 1: that the they all have this little totem that they can use to ensure that they're
• 42:52
  Track 1: in the reality version and not the dream version and it doesn't stop moving
• 42:56
  Track 1: and so the thought for many people is okay is he still in the dream or does
• 43:01
  Track 1: he actually wake up and part of my my thinking is like does it matter,
• 43:08
  Track 1: in like a very cynical way like does it okay i.
• 43:12
  Track 2: Think it does i have yeah i just i'm gonna i'm gonna let everybody else talk about this.
• 43:18
  Track 1: First okay john what do you think i mean you don't have to answer that question
• 43:23
  Track 1: exactly but like what do you make of the sort of ambiguity ambiguity of it.
• 43:28
  Track 3: Yeah i mean that's one of the things that gets taught about the most isn't it i think nor,
• 43:31
  Track 3: nor often does this thing where he has like layers to his
• 43:35
  Track 3: themes like he kind of does it in the prestige where there's
• 43:37
  Track 3: like twists within twists within twists and stuff like that and here
• 43:41
  Track 3: the main question that the narrative asks at the end is is common
• 43:44
  Track 3: reality or is he in a dream he doesn't tell us
• 43:47
  Track 3: which is which but i think the more interesting question which you're
• 43:50
  Track 3: saying is if he is in a dream does it
• 43:52
  Track 3: matter and i'm gonna
• 43:55
  Track 3: have to disagree with you bill because i don't think it does matter because
• 43:58
  Track 3: i think reality as we see it is kind of our
• 44:02
  Track 3: perception of what's around us isn't it it's like sounds and
• 44:06
  Track 3: sights and smells and if you're in a dream or if you're not isn't it the same
• 44:11
  Track 3: thing i think the main thing for me to take i take away from it is is it what
• 44:14
  Track 3: he wants and is he happy there which it seems like he is so i think that's what
• 44:19
  Track 3: matters and if he is happy there then who are we to say otherwise that's kind of how i look at it.
• 44:22
  Track 4: Ready word um so i think he's in the real world because you don't have to be
• 44:30
  Track 4: dreaming to understand And the United States is corrupt enough that some billionaire
• 44:33
  Track 4: can make a phone call and get a felon,
• 44:35
  Track 4: illegal person back into the fucking country.
• 44:39
  Track 4: The U.S. is that corrupt. That's easy. You don't have to be dreaming to believe that.
• 44:43
  Track 2: You've got to be dreaming to believe otherwise.
• 44:44
  Track 4: But it doesn't. Yeah.
• 44:47
  Track 4: Does it matter, though?
• 44:49
  Track 1: You say it doesn't matter.
• 44:49
  Track 4: As a miserable Marxist, it doesn't matter. All the systems of exploitation and
• 44:53
  Track 4: control still exist. It doesn't matter where he's at. He didn't change anything.
• 44:58
  Track 1: Yeah, that's how I fall, too.
• 44:59
  Track 3: Nolan will never ever tell us, will he? I think Nolan knows,
• 45:01
  Track 3: but he will never ever tell us. That's what he liked.
• 45:05
  Track 1: After you give your reason, Bill, I'm going to share something that supposedly,
• 45:11
  Track 1: quote-unquote, solves the mystery.
• 45:12
  Track 1: I say that in quotes because no one ever confirms anything.
• 45:15
  Track 3: I thought I was thinking, yeah.
• 45:16
  Track 1: Yeah, Michael Caine thing.
• 45:17
  Track 2: It's the Michael Caine thing.
• 45:19
  Track 1: Well, for anyone who doesn't know, I'll just say it real quick,
• 45:21
  Track 1: is that Michael Caine, when he agreed to do the movie or was given the script,
• 45:25
  Track 1: he was confused about which scenes are dreams and reality.
• 45:28
  Track 1: And Nolan apparently told him that if he's in the scene, it's reality.
• 45:32
  Track 1: And so in the final scene of the film, when Michael Caine takes him back to
• 45:36
  Track 1: his house, he is in the scene and thus it should be considered reality.
• 45:40
  Track 1: And then they've gone even further and they've, people have recorded the sound
• 45:43
  Track 1: that the top makes when it's about to stop spinning.
• 45:47
  Track 1: And they claim that if you stop it and you do it in the same part at the end,
• 45:51
  Track 1: it actually is about to stop spinning, but you don't get to see it.
• 45:54
  Track 1: And so it's left to the viewer.
• 45:56
  Track 2: So, you know. I think there's two levels to this. First of all, is he in a dream?
• 46:02
  Track 2: Yes, he is in a dream because his dream is to be with his children.
• 46:05
  Track 2: But that is also reality. He is in a dream because he's with his children.
• 46:10
  Track 2: And the fact that we know it is reality, I think, first of all,
• 46:15
  Track 2: because you don't have to record it.
• 46:17
  Track 2: You can tell at the end when it cuts that the top is about to fall.
• 46:22
  Track 2: He doesn't care because he, he doesn't need to have it confirmed because he
• 46:28
  Track 2: gets to see his children again. And that's his dream.
• 46:32
  Track 2: That is his literal, like objective dream to see his children again.
• 46:38
  Track 2: We see the children's face.
• 46:39
  Track 2: So as audience members, we should know this is reality.
• 46:44
  Track 2: But more to the point, like, I think it matters because to claim that,
• 46:50
  Track 2: like, basically it's like, it's an argument about idealism.
• 46:55
  Track 2: And when I say idealism, I mean the philosophical concept, not the idea of,
• 46:59
  Track 2: like, you know, you believe in the utopia.
• 47:01
  Track 2: The idea that, like, idealism, that, like, your thoughts can,
• 47:04
  Track 2: like, you know, it's the fundamental tenet of liberalism.
• 47:08
  Track 2: That, like, if you think something, then that's the way reality is.
• 47:12
  Track 2: And I despise people that live in their own little constructed fantasy lands.
• 47:19
  Track 2: It's why I kind of hate Disney world and Disney adults and like the way they like go there.
• 47:26
  Track 2: It's like, well, I can escape from reality. Fuck you. Like.
• 47:30
  Track 2: The entire thing that all paces me off so much, because you know what?
• 47:35
  Track 2: You know what is important about reality?
• 47:37
  Track 2: The fact that your actions affect other people and that your existence is not
• 47:46
  Track 2: solely predicated upon your individualist
• 47:50
  Track 2: thought and tendencies and your desires, your selfish desires.
• 47:54
  Track 2: No, reality is about connecting with other people. In this case,
• 48:00
  Track 2: the most obvious being his children.
• 48:04
  Track 2: That's reality. That's what's important. The fact that like his children are
• 48:08
  Track 2: individuals and that they have their own identity and that he can be in their
• 48:13
  Track 2: life and they will grow up and be people in their own right.
• 48:17
  Track 2: That's what's important.
• 48:19
  Track 2: That's what is like that's why it is important to
• 48:22
  Track 2: be like oh because you know what like yeah in the
• 48:26
  Track 2: dream world of reality these systems still exist but
• 48:29
  Track 2: in reality if you work with other people if you join community if you work with
• 48:35
  Track 2: other people if you move forward in concert with other human beings you can
• 48:38
  Track 2: change that you can change reality when connecting with other people because
• 48:42
  Track 2: it is about more than just you and what you want and what you dreamed and what
• 48:46
  Track 2: you care about it's about more than you.
• 48:50
  Track 2: That's why it's important to be like, this is reality because it's about more
• 48:54
  Track 2: than you. You're not the sole purpose. You're not the sole focus.
• 48:57
  Track 3: I think what Nolan said was, so many with Nolan, and you'll never, ever say,
• 49:02
  Track 3: specifically where he is i don't think but he did
• 49:04
  Track 3: see that the important thing from his point of view is that cob is happy now
• 49:09
  Track 3: he made a decision whether he's in a dream or not he's kind of not really concerned
• 49:13
  Track 3: with it anymore he's just concerned about being with his kids and he said that's
• 49:16
  Track 3: the main thing he's kind of his arc is complete because he's got over that wanting
• 49:21
  Track 3: to be somewhere else yeah yeah yeah.
• 49:24
  Track 2: I mean as a character yeah that's but there's you know there's There's the point
• 49:29
  Track 2: of the point of the character's.
• 49:31
  Track 3: Point of view and.
• 49:32
  Track 2: What the story means beyond that. And it's like, yeah, for Cobb's character,
• 49:37
  Track 2: yeah, it's true. His arc is complete.
• 49:39
  Track 2: But I also think that from a story perspective, that that is fundamentally about
• 49:44
  Track 2: being in reality. Because you know what?
• 49:47
  Track 2: Nobody, I think, listen, I don't have kids. John, do you have kids?
• 49:52
  Track 3: I don't.
• 49:52
  Track 2: All right, so you and I, we don't have kids. Ward and Evan have kids.
• 49:55
  Track 2: Ward evan is having kids like every day a dream,
• 50:02
  Track 2: not every day like and i
• 50:06
  Track 2: have to assume based on the way dom
• 50:09
  Track 2: like his character talks to his
• 50:12
  Track 2: kids and like he understands like
• 50:15
  Track 2: kids are kind of a nightmare sometimes like and like he
• 50:18
  Track 2: understands the reality of like being a parent like
• 50:21
  Track 2: the way he talks to his kids like it seems like he actually understands
• 50:24
  Track 2: that and it's like that to him it's
• 50:27
  Track 2: like yeah he's happy but like that comes with like reality it comes with like
• 50:32
  Track 2: the harsh truths of being a parent like that's not you know it's not all just
• 50:38
  Track 2: like gumdrops and you know rainbows and fucking wonderful shit it's but what's
• 50:43
  Track 2: important is being with his kids yeah,
• 50:45
  Track 2: For his kids' sake.
• 50:47
  Track 1: I think that's why it's so important that he, that one of the thing that Cobb
• 50:52
  Track 1: does throughout the movie and he sort of gets caught by Elliot Page's character
• 50:56
  Track 1: is going into a dream, but it's actually his memories, which is sort of what
• 51:00
  Track 1: he tells people not to do.
• 51:01
  Track 1: It's like, you shouldn't go into your memories. You should only be going into a dream.
• 51:05
  Track 1: And he has to keep hold of that memory because if he doesn't,
• 51:09
  Track 1: could he ever actually achieve his dream of being back with his children again?
• 51:15
  Track 1: And I think it goes back to the same, sort of the same concept is that he can't
• 51:19
  Track 1: let go of those memories because if he does, will he even remember?
• 51:23
  Track 1: Because he said he can't dream anymore. Will he even, I know that in the reality
• 51:27
  Track 1: version of Cobb is the dream to go see his kids, but you might even lose that
• 51:32
  Track 1: part of him if he can't even remember it anymore.
• 51:34
  Track 2: He will also have to confront and come to terms with the fact that his wife
• 51:39
  Track 2: was fundamentally acting from a completely selfish point of view to not leave
• 51:48
  Track 2: the dream world originally.
• 51:50
  Track 2: She would have gladly abandoned her children.
• 51:54
  Track 2: And again, that's the point. That's what the difference between reality and the dream.
• 51:59
  Track 2: The fact is that reality involves other people.
• 52:04
  Track 2: And your connection with people matters. And she would have gladly let that
• 52:10
  Track 2: go purely from a selfish perspective for her own ends. And she would have abandoned her children.
• 52:16
  Track 2: And yeah, it's his fault that in the end, like she kills herself,
• 52:20
  Track 2: but she already made that choice.
• 52:24
  Track 2: She made that choice. And really in the end, like he, she made that choice long before he did.
• 52:30
  Track 2: If that makes sense.
• 52:31
  Track 3: It's almost like she became kind of addicted to it. Like those guys in Mombasa,
• 52:35
  Track 3: they seem to be addicted to it as well.
• 52:37
  Track 3: I don't think it's a coincidence that that kind of whole setting looks like
• 52:40
  Track 3: an Orbeam den. I don't think that's a coincidence at all.
• 52:42
  Track 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's not a coincidence.
• 52:47
  Track 2: Including the trip sitter.
• 52:48
  Track 3: Yeah.
• 52:49
  Track 4: Yeah.
• 52:50
  Track 1: I can totally see that being the case, that she became addicted to this version
• 52:53
  Track 1: of her, you know, quote unquote life, and she was unwilling to let it go,
• 52:58
  Track 1: even if it meant never getting back to her children, which is,
• 53:01
  Track 1: as you said, Bill, very selfish.
• 53:03
  Track 1: I mean, she's choosing this dream for eternity over the lives of her kids.
• 53:10
  Track 2: And her kids are in that dream, but they're not them.
• 53:17
  Track 2: They're just idealistic projections of them, which is what I'm saying.
• 53:23
  Track 2: Dom understands his kids are also kind of shits.
• 53:28
  Track 2: When the one kid picks up the phone and he's like god you put your put your
• 53:32
  Track 2: grandfather on like he understands like his kid like his kid can be a shit and
• 53:37
  Track 2: it's like he still wants to go back to the kid that could sometimes be a shit.
• 53:41
  Track 1: Well the like the the the thing that's also sort of revealed at the end too
• 53:45
  Track 1: as part of i guess there's like sort of multiple reveals is that you learn that it was,
• 53:50
  Track 1: dom that planted the idea that led to his wife killing herself and like it's
• 53:56
  Track 1: also you never really, he never really ever in the movie comes to terms with
• 54:02
  Track 1: that guilt, I don't think.
• 54:04
  Track 3: No, he absolutely doesn't. He talks about it right towards the end of the film.
• 54:07
  Track 3: I think the final dialogue scene between Marl and Cobb, he's talking about how
• 54:12
  Track 3: guilty he feels, isn't he?
• 54:13
  Track 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess he does feel guilt, but there's no...
• 54:18
  Track 1: Resolution for that he sort of like lets mal go from this eternal dream state
• 54:23
  Track 1: so he could finally come back to reality it's um.
• 54:28
  Track 2: Because he realizes that he's doing the same thing she was doing and the only way that.
• 54:34
  Track 4: It's not actually.
• 54:34
  Track 2: Maul yeah.
• 54:35
  Track 4: It's just idealistic projection yeah same as the kids.
• 54:40
  Track 2: And the only way he can achieve his
• 54:43
  Track 2: actual dream is by letting that go and
• 54:46
  Track 2: i think part of it is also like admitting that like when he
• 54:50
  Track 2: when we with elliot page's character
• 54:53
  Track 2: like watched like her commit suicide i feel
• 54:56
  Track 2: like that whole part is his character also
• 55:00
  Track 2: kind of like coming to terms of the fact that like like i said like she made
• 55:04
  Track 2: this choice long before he accepted her she made the choice to die and leave
• 55:09
  Track 2: the kids long before that and i feel like that whole scene making him watch
• 55:15
  Track 2: that again was him coming to terms with that those.
• 55:19
  Track 3: Scenes as well are really interesting where we see maul like jump off the off
• 55:23
  Track 3: the ledge and ariadne kind of lambasts um cob for going back inside his own
• 55:28
  Track 3: memories which he's not meant to do it's kind of the point we know that we.
• 55:30
  Track 2: Realize that.
• 55:31
  Track 3: Cob is probably the most unhinged person of all of the crew but.
• 55:36
  Track 2: Also the thing is as well yeah all the exposition that we've had until.
• 55:40
  Track 3: Now which has been a lot has mostly been delivered from Cobb to Ariadne for us to listen to,
• 55:45
  Track 3: um to be in ariadne's shoes so if cobb's telling us everything and he's the
• 55:49
  Track 3: most unhinged person i mean how much of this is even correct what he's telling
• 55:53
  Track 3: us is he could be the most unreliable narrator kind of in the world yeah.
• 55:57
  Track 1: Yeah that's true yeah i think about that a lot of movies where you're getting
• 56:01
  Track 1: the story from a person who is not a reliable source of information throughout the whole thing.
• 56:08
  Track 3: Because in the star in paris when he's delivering all the when he's drawing
• 56:10
  Track 3: the diagrams and we see the storefront blowing up and stuff like that he's giving
• 56:14
  Track 3: all that exposition to ariadne and to us and we just buy it we're just lapping
• 56:18
  Track 3: it up because we think this guy's on the ball he knows exactly what he's doing
• 56:21
  Track 3: later on if he was telling us
• 56:22
  Track 3: that we'll be thinking hang on a minute am i going to listen to this guy,
• 56:32
  Track 3: i think no one's smart enough as a writer and a filmmaker to do that to tell
• 56:36
  Track 3: us the information when we trust him and then have us realize hang on a minute
• 56:39
  Track 3: do i trust him and at all So I think that's another angle as well.
• 56:42
  Track 3: It's quite interesting.
• 56:43
  Track 1: Yeah. Speaking of the exposition, like one thing that I forgot to mention that
• 56:47
  Track 1: sometimes I've seen as like a critique of it is that because the movie is so
• 56:51
  Track 1: complicated or like the whole technology and what's reality is you get a lot of exposition,
• 56:57
  Track 1: but he does it in a way that really fits the narrative.
• 57:02
  Track 1: I think just as you said, John, is he's giving you the information of how you
• 57:06
  Track 1: construct this early on because if that had happened later or even at the beginning
• 57:11
  Track 1: of the film it wouldn't have made any sense at all and you wouldn't have believed
• 57:13
  Track 1: it so i don't think it's too much exposition because it's just a complex just
• 57:17
  Track 1: like in the movie tenant which is even more complex than this.
• 57:20
  Track 3: Yeah yeah i think that's probably the biggest stick that
• 57:22
  Track 3: people use to kind of beat the film with a lot of
• 57:25
  Track 3: northern films but this one as well the exposition i
• 57:28
  Track 3: do get it but personally i kind of like all the exposition i
• 57:31
  Track 3: mean but there is a lot to get through the first hour of the film is basically
• 57:34
  Track 3: entirely exposition and then probably the rest of the film about a third of
• 57:38
  Track 3: it is probably exposition I think it works for me because Nolan kind of understands
• 57:42
  Track 3: that and he's smart enough to justify I think all the exposition by having it
• 57:45
  Track 3: given to us in really engaging scenes either through,
• 57:49
  Track 3: huge spectacle or great action not just engaging visuals
• 57:52
  Track 3: that scene in Paris I'm talking about between Cobb and Ariadne
• 57:55
  Track 3: is probably the best example because 10 minutes of Cobb just talking to Ariadne
• 57:59
  Track 3: literally telling her what's going on telling us what's going on and how the
• 58:02
  Track 3: whole dream world works but the visuals of them exploding fronts and the city
• 58:07
  Track 3: falling in on itself and the smashing mirrors it's all just fantastic to look
• 58:10
  Track 3: at so it kind of works I think yeah.
• 58:13
  Track 4: I say yeah like it's a lot of exposition but like you kind of need it for a
• 58:16
  Track 4: movie like this but it's also laundered extremely well through the fact that
• 58:21
  Track 4: oh hey we got a new heist member we.
• 58:23
  Track 3: Gotta train them.
• 58:25
  Track 4: Up like that's how it's so that's how it's like flows so naturally.
• 58:28
  Track 2: It's i feel like this comes down to like you know we have so many people like
• 58:32
  Track 2: with the internet and like how like you know communicate like conversations
• 58:36
  Track 2: about like media and everything it's like everyone's an expert but it's like
• 58:40
  Track 2: people take like bits and pieces of things and then just run with it.
• 58:45
  Track 2: Like people, people heard show don't tell, and then just ran with it.
• 58:51
  Track 2: And like, don't look beyond it's like, yeah, show, don't tell,
• 58:56
  Track 2: but also like, it's all contextual.
• 59:00
  Track 2: Like, yes, he is telling us things here, but also like there is another layer to it.
• 59:09
  Track 2: It's not just two people like, you know, talking heads, just like,
• 59:12
  Track 2: it's not the Amazon war with the worlds where you know ice tea.
• 59:17
  Track 3: Cube whichever i don't know ice.
• 59:20
  Track 2: Cube is sitting in front of like a computer monitor telling.
• 59:24
  Track 3: Us what he's doing like it's not that there's a difference.
• 59:29
  Track 1: Which is really good like.
• 59:33
  Track 2: But it's like he's yes he's telling us because there's certain ways like you're
• 59:36
  Track 2: never gonna get this otherwise but he's also showing it at the same time.
• 59:40
  Track 1: The showing yeah the like the scene as we we briefly kind of talked maybe we
• 59:45
  Track 1: didn't really talk about the special effects but we talked about the practical
• 59:48
  Track 1: effects too but the scene where they're at the cafe and they're still and everything
• 59:51
  Track 1: is exploding around them looks so good and then you see the sort of the flipping
• 59:56
  Track 1: of the road upside down and then.
• 59:58
  Track 3: People often.
• 59:58
  Track 1: Talk about the the bridge under the bridge mirror shot as like an an incredible
• 1:00:03
  Track 1: you know piece of cinematography too.
• 1:00:05
  Track 3: Yeah well that cafe explosion that was largely
• 1:00:08
  Track 3: practical i know how they did that was that um they had these super high speed
• 1:00:12
  Track 3: cameras that shot at like 1500 frames a second instead of the normal 24 frames
• 1:00:16
  Track 3: a second and then they had air cannons propelling all the different debris out
• 1:00:20
  Track 3: so then when they play it back and slow it down it's super detailed because
• 1:00:23
  Track 3: they've got like 1500 frames a second instead of like 24 so he knows what he's doing here
• 1:00:28
  Track 3: i think his rule is kind of i think i think whenever that he comes up with an
• 1:00:32
  Track 3: idea for where they need special effects i think his first rule is can we do
• 1:00:35
  Track 3: it practically if we can do it practically because it will look really really
• 1:00:39
  Track 3: well if not like the falling city
• 1:00:41
  Track 3: then we can look at cgi i think i think that's his rule it seems to be.
• 1:00:45
  Track 1: I do do you know how he does the mirror shot where basically you know you can't
• 1:00:49
  Track 1: see the camera i i was gonna watch a video about it but i just didn't get a chance to.
• 1:00:53
  Track 3: That i think is cgi i think yeah it has to be right.
• 1:00:56
  Track 1: Like there's no other way to to hide a you know.
• 1:00:58
  Track 3: Yeah they're.
• 1:00:58
  Track 1: Literally looking through the mirror and.
• 1:00:59
  Track 3: Other the the penrose step shot you know when ariadne and
• 1:01:02
  Track 3: arthur are on the steps and it kind of looks like a paradox that's all practical
• 1:01:06
  Track 3: because they're wally fist of the dp he said that had to work down to like the
• 1:01:09
  Track 3: millimeter the mathematics of exactly where the camera would go because if it
• 1:01:12
  Track 3: was a millimeter off it couldn't fool your eyes so they spent like weeks and
• 1:01:16
  Track 3: weeks and weeks working out the mathematics behind that shot and it's like a
• 1:01:20
  Track 3: three or four second shot yeah.
• 1:01:21
  Track 2: That's how they um that's all that for how they do the the moving camera force.
• 1:01:26
  Track 3: Perspective where.
• 1:01:27
  Track 2: They figured it out again but yeah like in lord of the rings too where you have the hobbits.
• 1:01:31
  Track 1: And you know the they're on dollies.
• 1:01:33
  Track 2: So basically this movie this movie couldn't have been made without peter.
• 1:01:37
  Track 3: Jackson yeah yeah they did it first yeah that's right yeah yeah.
• 1:01:40
  Track 1: I mean that's uh that's right paved the way but yeah no one does just incredible
• 1:01:44
  Track 1: things when in like in most of his movies there's incredible effects that just
• 1:01:49
  Track 1: you watch them and you're just kind of in awe that's why, you know,
• 1:01:52
  Track 1: we said at the beginning is these will hold up because they just,
• 1:01:55
  Track 1: He didn't do more than he needed to. He did, you know, camera tricks and speed
• 1:02:01
  Track 1: tricks and these kind of things and just, yeah.
• 1:02:04
  Track 3: Was it you, Bill, that was saying you hadn't seen this since you saw it at the
• 1:02:07
  Track 3: theater? How did you think it did?
• 1:02:09
  Track 3: Watching it in today's eyes then, how did you think it held up?
• 1:02:12
  Track 2: It looks amazing. It's absolutely amazing. Like, it looks better than most movies that come out now.
• 1:02:19
  Track 1: Yeah, that's...
• 1:02:20
  Track 3: I mean, I agree, but I watched it, like, for the last 15 years almost nonstop,
• 1:02:23
  Track 3: but I was interested to see what someone who hasn't watched it come and do it
• 1:02:26
  Track 3: for the fresh eyes things.
• 1:02:27
  Track 2: It's it's the same thing as like like
• 1:02:30
  Track 2: we just did metropolis and metropolis is filled
• 1:02:33
  Track 2: with practical effects that makes ridiculous things
• 1:02:36
  Track 2: like impossible things that they things they could not have created in time
• 1:02:39
  Track 2: look real and you watch metropolis now and because it's a practical effect you're
• 1:02:44
  Track 2: like you it aged so well the practical effects in metropolis look as good as
• 1:02:51
  Track 2: the practical effects in yeah because there is kind.
• 1:02:54
  Track 3: Of that ongoing thing in cinema isn't it between practical and cgi effects and
• 1:02:57
  Track 3: cgi tends to get tends to get a little bit looked on down on maybe by some people
• 1:03:01
  Track 3: why do you think that is why do you think practicals looking as being like oh
• 1:03:05
  Track 3: that's the way to go if you can cgi you shouldn't you shouldn't do it unless
• 1:03:07
  Track 3: you have to why do you think that is.
• 1:03:09
  Track 2: I i think it's because and like i said i am not the kind of person who like
• 1:03:15
  Track 2: complains about cgi like i don't have anything against cgi um but i think,
• 1:03:21
  Track 2: But you know what? If you look at, like, say, the original Jurassic Park and
• 1:03:25
  Track 2: look at the CGI in the original Jurassic Park, what it comes,
• 1:03:28
  Track 2: like, the CGI in the original Jurassic Park looks incredible still today.
• 1:03:35
  Track 2: You put on Jurassic Park right now and watch it.
• 1:03:37
  Track 3: It looks incredible.
• 1:03:39
  Track 2: The Tyrannosaurus Rex, I mean, it looks incredible.
• 1:03:42
  Track 2: And what i think it really boils down
• 1:03:45
  Track 2: to is that as time has gone by and they've just leaned more heavily into it
• 1:03:51
  Track 2: and they become more detached from reality they forgot how to like meld those
• 1:03:58
  Track 2: two things together and they they rely too heavily on the perfection of cgi forgetting,
• 1:04:06
  Track 2: that reality isn't perfect like there
• 1:04:09
  Track 2: is a um a comic from years ago
• 1:04:12
  Track 2: called red star and it was rendered it's
• 1:04:15
  Track 2: a it's a comic that is largely mostly was
• 1:04:19
  Track 2: created in 3d graphics and the artist talks about like what he would do is like
• 1:04:24
  Track 2: and how it looks so good why it looks so good is he'd make it all and then he
• 1:04:29
  Track 2: deliberately had imperfections back and that's why it felt real That's why it felt good.
• 1:04:36
  Track 2: That's why it didn't feel so sterile and just created in a computer.
• 1:04:42
  Track 2: And people seem to have...
• 1:04:45
  Track 2: Forgotten reality is not perfect it doesn't flow like that.
• 1:04:49
  Track 1: Can i add another thing i think you're completely right bill but the other thing that's
• 1:04:52
  Track 1: happened i think with cgi and movies
• 1:04:56
  Track 1: i mean we talked about before you know the inception he'd been planning inception
• 1:05:00
  Track 1: for many years it took i think it i think it took i don't i didn't see how exactly
• 1:05:06
  Track 1: how long it took the film but i imagine it was probably uh i could look it up
• 1:05:11
  Track 1: but took a while so it started oh it started in 2009 in June.
• 1:05:18
  Track 1: It took a long time. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that a lot
• 1:05:23
  Track 1: of movies before, you know, in the 90s, like Jurassic Park, is that they would spend a long time,
• 1:05:30
  Track 1: perfecting the imperfect versions of those CGI's.
• 1:05:34
  Track 1: They had people who were expert at their crafts.
• 1:05:37
  Track 1: Now they make a movie and the studio wants to get that out to the theater right
• 1:05:41
  Track 1: away so they can start making money back on the investment that they spent on all that CGI.
• 1:05:47
  Track 1: And so it leads to people who were doing the CGI having to go more quickly.
• 1:05:51
  Track 1: They now Disney just fired a bunch of their Marvel CGI people to use AI to do
• 1:05:55
  Track 1: it and it'll probably look even worse.
• 1:05:57
  Track 1: So I think part of it is just the lack of attention to people who are actually experts at that craft.
• 1:06:03
  Track 1: And so now you movie makers who can still use practical effects I think is viewed
• 1:06:10
  Track 1: as better just because of the degradation of,
• 1:06:14
  Track 1: actual cgi you know like a marvel movie where everything is just a green screen
• 1:06:18
  Track 1: and everything is added in post.
• 1:06:19
  Track 3: Yeah it's.
• 1:06:21
  Track 2: The volume yeah it's the volume.
• 1:06:24
  Track 3: Not a green screen people do probably seem to respect the
• 1:06:27
  Track 3: artistry of practical effects more like the original
• 1:06:30
  Track 3: star wars you could pick anything but the original star wars where they're making like
• 1:06:33
  Track 3: miniature models of the millennium falcon and tie fighters and all of
• 1:06:36
  Track 3: this i think people just like the idea of that more all these
• 1:06:38
  Track 3: model builders or painters matt painters or whatever it is and the idea of a
• 1:06:43
  Track 3: load of people sitting in front of a computer i think maybe people like that
• 1:06:45
  Track 3: idea more as well it's more romantic i think um but i think you're both right
• 1:06:49
  Track 3: i think there's a lot of things go into it but i i'm a big fan of cgi but i
• 1:06:53
  Track 3: like the balance nolan is my
• 1:06:55
  Track 3: favorite effects director at the minute because he has that balance yeah.
• 1:06:58
  Track 2: What i what i always think about in terms of this is if you're familiar with
• 1:07:03
  Track 2: the the netflix dark crystal series um so,
• 1:07:09
  Track 2: Have we all seen The Dark Crystal?
• 1:07:11
  Track 1: Not for a long time, but yes.
• 1:07:13
  Track 2: Oh, man. Ward. That's your assignment now, Ward.
• 1:07:18
  Track 2: Fuck. Go watch The Dark Crystal. Go watch The Dark Crystal with Austin.
• 1:07:23
  Track 2: Traumatize your child. Okay.
• 1:07:25
  Track 2: So, for those who are not familiar with The Dark Crystal, it's a 1980 dark fantasy Muppet film.
• 1:07:32
  Track 2: Everything is practical. It's all practical. It's fucking Muppets.
• 1:07:35
  Track 2: It's either Muppets or people in costumes,
• 1:07:38
  Track 2: but they're like Muppet costumes um I
• 1:07:42
  Track 2: love the Dark Crystal um I grew
• 1:07:46
  Track 2: up you know I was born to early 80s and you know almost you know very early
• 1:07:52
  Track 2: 80s and like grew up with that kind of like dark fantasy that time um and Dark
• 1:07:57
  Track 2: Crystal's a huge huge thing in
• 1:07:59
  Track 2: my life and so the series the Dark Crystal series on Netflix Right it is,
• 1:08:06
  Track 2: overwhelmingly practical effects but In certain places, they overlaid CGI over those,
• 1:08:14
  Track 2: just, so, like, they took practical, and then instead of going whole hog or,
• 1:08:19
  Track 2: like, relying totally on CGI,
• 1:08:21
  Track 2: they did what so many successful people that use the two, just like Jurassic
• 1:08:25
  Track 2: Park, where it's not all one or the other, it's a successful synthesis of the two.
• 1:08:30
  Track 2: It is using the strengths and the weaknesses of both things to get the perfect thing.
• 1:08:36
  Track 2: Lord of the Rings is the same way. It's hugely practical.
• 1:08:41
  Track 2: And then they take little parts and they improve it just a little bit.
• 1:08:46
  Track 3: Yeah did you hear what happened with the thing it was quite interesting with
• 1:08:49
  Track 3: that because obviously the original the thing from like 1982 famously
• 1:08:52
  Track 3: rob boteen crazy practical effects nearly killed
• 1:08:55
  Track 3: them making them then they did the remake in 2011 i think it was and the idea
• 1:09:00
  Track 3: originally was to do it all practically as well and have the creature practical
• 1:09:03
  Track 3: but then when they did it and the studio started seeing it they were like no
• 1:09:06
  Track 3: teenagers are going to laugh at this and had them do it all again cgi so and
• 1:09:11
  Track 3: for the worse for me for me.
• 1:09:13
  Track 1: Speaking of cgi or speaking of like practical effects and you mentioned lord of
• 1:09:16
  Track 1: the rings is that they indy circus in an interview where he's
• 1:09:19
  Track 1: making that new the hunt for golem or the search for golem i forget
• 1:09:21
  Track 1: the new title of that new movie they're coming out with and
• 1:09:24
  Track 1: he hunt for golem yes he said that he's going
• 1:09:27
  Track 1: back and bringing the people who created the lord
• 1:09:30
  Track 1: of the rings trilogy initially and where they made like
• 1:09:33
  Track 1: giant sets of you know ministeria and
• 1:09:36
  Track 1: they you know camera goes around so it actually looks
• 1:09:39
  Track 1: like they don't do it all through cgi and i
• 1:09:42
  Track 1: think that's like a smart move and he understands that people want
• 1:09:46
  Track 1: to see that version and that type of
• 1:09:49
  Track 1: movie where it's not reliant on to cgi and everything like they did with the
• 1:09:53
  Track 1: hobbit trilogy where all of the people all the orcs and the people fighting
• 1:09:57
  Track 1: were all cgi and it did not look as good as all of the actual actors playing
• 1:10:01
  Track 1: in makeup in the lord of the ring so i like to think that more directors like,
• 1:10:08
  Track 1: other than nolan we'll do that more and i hope that they are allowed to.
• 1:10:13
  Track 3: Well that was wet at workshop wasn't it did the lord of the rings miniatures
• 1:10:16
  Track 3: they had yeah they called them bigot chairs because they were so huge like yes
• 1:10:19
  Track 3: that minister it was like 25 feet tall or something which meant jackson could
• 1:10:22
  Track 3: get right in with his camera and it still looks great so those like great shots
• 1:10:26
  Track 3: where you see it like sweeping across mordor and things like that um it's it's
• 1:10:30
  Track 3: the miniatures are so detailed that he could do that and they just look fantastic
• 1:10:33
  Track 3: but yeah that was a very much of end of miniature scale models,
• 1:10:36
  Track 3: everything that you, every effect trick in the book, you brought Lord of the Rings, didn't you?
• 1:10:39
  Track 2: And you know, there's a conversation to be had about CGI versus miniature and,
• 1:10:46
  Track 2: or practical effects and how that shift has been driven by studios as a means
• 1:10:52
  Track 2: of controlling workers, paying workers less and retaining profits on their ends.
• 1:10:58
  Track 2: Like there is a huge, huge conversation to be had about
• 1:11:01
  Track 2: that and how they have consolidated power and
• 1:11:05
  Track 2: made it possible for them to further exploit workers because it is far easier
• 1:11:14
  Track 2: to ship off and outsource digital work to places with less labor protections.
• 1:11:23
  Track 2: Not that America's fucking great by any stretch of the imagination,
• 1:11:28
  Track 2: but it is definitely, and then on top of that, because of that they have managed
• 1:11:33
  Track 2: to kill so many of those skills.
• 1:11:35
  Track 1: Well they the US studios are now filming things in England because they have
• 1:11:39
  Track 1: you have healthcare and they don't have to pay that on top of the salaries they're
• 1:11:41
  Track 1: already paying like in the United States.
• 1:11:43
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 1:11:44
  Track 1: Anyway this is in Canada.
• 1:11:46
  Track 3: Canada yeah well there's a lot of controversy a few years ago with marvel wasn't
• 1:11:49
  Track 3: there about how they were treating their cgi artists and things like that and
• 1:11:53
  Track 3: underpinning them undercutting them because they could basically yep.
• 1:11:56
  Track 1: Yeah no i know we straight a little bit from um inception we went into uh into
• 1:12:00
  Track 1: that but but john was there any any last thing that you had that you we didn't
• 1:12:04
  Track 1: bring up about inception any of your notes that we you want to hit before we
• 1:12:08
  Track 1: left or final thoughts anything like that.
• 1:12:10
  Track 3: There wasn't to be honest we've covered everything that i had so we've done
• 1:12:12
  Track 3: a we've done quite well i think though i think the only note i have that we
• 1:12:15
  Track 3: didn't cover did we cover it i don't think we did it was just uh on did we did
• 1:12:18
  Track 3: i mention it on ariadne where her name came from did i mention that no it comes
• 1:12:22
  Track 3: from greek mythology so ariadne in greek mythology was a princess who helped
• 1:12:27
  Track 3: theseus escape from the labyrinth like the minotaur and all that so that's why
• 1:12:31
  Track 3: it's just called that way she draws a labyrinth doesn't she on a bit of paper and.
• 1:12:34
  Track 2: She helps him escape dams and.
• 1:12:36
  Track 3: Reality i'm sorry end of conversation yeah yeah yeah yeah very nice i never thought about that.
• 1:12:40
  Track 1: That's a good point. Yeah.
• 1:12:45
  Track 3: Are you good yeah no.
• 1:12:47
  Track 1: Yeah no but um do you you did mention we did mention your your show and your
• 1:12:52
  Track 1: book at the beginning but you want to maybe tell people i think you already
• 1:12:55
  Track 1: said that but you want to tell people when your book comes out unless it's already out.
• 1:12:58
  Track 3: No it's on pre-sale at the minute this will be released yes on
• 1:13:01
  Track 3: pre-sale at the minute it comes out officially in september so
• 1:13:05
  Track 3: the okay so this will be out before that yeah so the title is
• 1:13:08
  Track 3: all the right movies the stories and secrets behind the making of 25 iconic
• 1:13:11
  Track 3: films bit of a mouthful yeah out in september so
• 1:13:14
  Track 3: we kind of talk about 25 significant films
• 1:13:17
  Track 3: we call them classics films that have kind of mattered in the course of
• 1:13:20
  Track 3: the history of hollywood um and talk
• 1:13:23
  Track 3: about how they were made um in kind of fun interesting
• 1:13:26
  Track 3: ways we like to think and we've got interviews with a cast a crew member
• 1:13:28
  Track 3: for each from each one as well um and yeah
• 1:13:31
  Track 3: it's very much powered by the same kind of research that goes into the podcast because like
• 1:13:35
  Track 3: i was saying our podcast has a very similar vibe to what we're talking about
• 1:13:37
  Track 3: here and what you guys have we just go very big on kind of how things were done
• 1:13:40
  Track 3: in the making of things that's how I kind of know some pointless trivia about
• 1:13:45
  Track 3: certain films because we've done an episode on Inception a few years ago so
• 1:13:48
  Track 3: it's kind of rocking my brains on that um but yeah if people are interested
• 1:13:51
  Track 3: in that then please do uh check us out we're on all the major platforms Apple,
• 1:13:54
  Track 3: Podcasts Spotify YouTube our website allthebrankmovies.com so have a look.
• 1:13:59
  Track 1: Awesome John yeah and you can the same thing you can find Left the Projector
• 1:14:03
  Track 1: wherever uh podcasts are available and John thank you so much for uh for coming on today thank.
• 1:14:08
  Track 3: You for having me I've loved it Some really interesting takes.
• 1:14:11
  Track 2: Thank you for joining us.
• 1:14:13
  Track 4: Thank you.
• 1:14:14
  Track 1: Excellent. Well, for Bill and Ward, we will catch everyone next time.