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Behold A Pale Horse Drug · Conspiracy! The Show

0:10
Speaker 1: W insurance the Truth.
0:14
Speaker 2: I'm a check. Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy Show.
0:35
Speaker 1: I'm Adam Todd Brown and I'm Olivia Haidar.
0:38
Speaker 2: And we are your hosts. We have a doozy of
0:41
Speaker 2: an episode for you.
0:43
Speaker 1: This week.
0:44
Speaker 2: We're talking about ivermectin. I hope I'm pronouncing that right,
0:49
Speaker 2: I think, but most people will recognize it more as
0:53
Speaker 2: the horse de wormer that people have been poisoning themselves
0:57
Speaker 2: with in an effort to battle COVID nineteen.
1:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:02
Speaker 2: I feel like we need to preface this episode by
1:05
Speaker 2: saying we are in no way, shape or form advocating
1:09
Speaker 2: for any medicine other than we I think we can
1:12
Speaker 2: both safely.
1:13
Speaker 1: Say absolutely absolutely. I think I think the overarching like
1:18
Speaker 1: moral of this episode is going to be, don't take
1:22
Speaker 1: a drug that your doctor didn't prescribe to you. I
1:27
Speaker 1: think that's the big thing here, is that that it
1:31
Speaker 1: just still do that.
1:32
Speaker 2: It's going to be that, but it's also going to
1:35
Speaker 2: be how about we all just calm down a little bit?
1:39
Speaker 1: Yes, I think, and that is a good just a
1:42
Speaker 1: good piece of advice outside of this context. This is
1:46
Speaker 1: especially within.
1:48
Speaker 2: This is one of those rare episodes where I guess
1:52
Speaker 2: I guess my my My thinking here is everyone's kind
1:55
Speaker 2: of right and also kind of wrong about what's happening
2:00
Speaker 2: the reporting around Iver Martin.
2:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't think necessarily everyone's
2:07
Speaker 1: kind of right, but like there's a lot of people
2:10
Speaker 1: who are you know, No, I don't.
2:12
Speaker 2: I don't mean everyone. I mean both sides actually have
2:17
Speaker 2: seemingly valid points in this argument, but it's not really
2:22
Speaker 2: being treated that way.
2:24
Speaker 1: I just I just think this is one.
2:26
Speaker 2: Of those stories where people on both sides need to
2:30
Speaker 2: just I can't believe I just thought of this on
2:32
Speaker 2: the fly. Hold their horses a little bit. Have you
2:39
Speaker 2: heard about this, because I know you said you haven't.
2:42
Speaker 2: You haven't been tuned into the news.
2:43
Speaker 1: This is the thing, This is the thing. I have
2:46
Speaker 1: been barely able to keep up with any sort of
2:49
Speaker 1: news over the last couple of weeks, and I've basically
2:53
Speaker 1: when I have like five minutes, I'm able to like
2:55
Speaker 1: check Twitter and do whatever, and then that's it. So
2:59
Speaker 1: it does seem like this Iver Metin story, just from
3:02
Speaker 1: the little bits and pieces I've getting here, has kind
3:05
Speaker 1: of exploded over the last couple of weeks. It went
3:08
Speaker 1: from being kind of a nothing to being the big
3:11
Speaker 1: COVID story that everyone is talking about for this like
3:15
Speaker 1: period of time, and I have been kind of out
3:18
Speaker 1: of the loop on it. I've had to do a
3:20
Speaker 1: lot of catchup.
3:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's been a story at least for a
3:24
Speaker 2: few weeks. But we'll get into later on in the episode.
3:28
Speaker 2: It's actually a story that's been around.
3:30
Speaker 1: Pre COVID, oh for sure. For sure.
3:32
Speaker 2: And it's one of those things that's getting tied to
3:36
Speaker 2: the idea of a COVID snake oil salesman, yes, which
3:41
Speaker 2: there have been lots and lots of those since COVID started.
3:46
Speaker 2: It's a valid concern. It's a thing that we know
3:49
Speaker 2: has happened.
3:51
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's an ext that's an extension of
3:54
Speaker 1: the snake oil that the right wing has been peddling
3:58
Speaker 1: to each other for the past like two decades basically.
4:02
Speaker 2: So when I first heard this story, I was like, oh, yeah, well,
4:05
Speaker 2: it's clearly just another example of that, right But when
4:10
Speaker 2: you dig into it, I don't think this is actually that.
4:14
Speaker 1: I think there's an element of that.
4:16
Speaker 2: I think there are people, don't It's not that I
4:19
Speaker 2: think there are clearly people getting very, very bad advice
4:24
Speaker 2: when it comes to ivermectin and how.
4:26
Speaker 1: To obtain it.
4:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't think that's the same thing as
4:30
Speaker 2: the doctor's pushing it as a treatment for COVID being
4:35
Speaker 2: snake oil salesman, because we're talking about two different products
4:39
Speaker 2: for all intents and purposes.
4:41
Speaker 1: I mean, this might sound shocking to some of our listeners,
4:47
Speaker 1: but there might be a lot of nuance in this
4:50
Speaker 1: really complicated real world situation. I hate to say it,
4:54
Speaker 1: but it might be true. Wow, nice both sides ism.
4:58
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm sorry. I don't mean to
5:01
Speaker 1: what about on this. I'm just to speak in my truth.
5:05
Speaker 2: What this reminds me a lot of is the program
5:09
Speaker 2: that effectively killed Jewel or the campaign I guess is
5:14
Speaker 2: a better word for it, where there were all these
5:18
Speaker 2: deaths and hospitalizations as a result of a disease called
5:21
Speaker 2: popcorn lung and it was reported that the people who
5:25
Speaker 2: were suffering from this were vaping and that's what caused it.
5:30
Speaker 2: And every article you read had a big picture of
5:33
Speaker 2: jewel cartridges at the top and went into all this
5:37
Speaker 2: stuff about how jewel cartridges and cigarettes have the same
5:40
Speaker 2: chemicals in them. But then the products that were actually
5:43
Speaker 2: giving people this condition were bootleg hash oil cartridges, and
5:49
Speaker 2: it's like you're buying a science fiction version of weed
5:53
Speaker 2: from a guy. Like of course, yeah, there are going
5:58
Speaker 2: to be some inherent risks in that they so successfully
6:01
Speaker 2: tied Jewel pods to that scandal that it fucking killed Jewel.
6:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember all this because, like, you know, I
6:12
Speaker 1: smoked a lot of weed, and anybody, at least anybody
6:16
Speaker 1: in California who smokes a lot of weed around that
6:20
Speaker 1: time knew to not buy shitty wheat baite cartridges. Like
6:26
Speaker 1: that was like just the word of mouth among weed
6:30
Speaker 1: smokers was just like hey, just so you know, you
6:32
Speaker 1: don't want to be buying unless it's like got a
6:34
Speaker 1: nice package and it looked and it's professionally made. You
6:37
Speaker 1: don't want to buy anything because like I would go
6:40
Speaker 1: to like my dispensaries that I would go to living
6:46
Speaker 1: in la I would say, were you know, almost legal,
6:50
Speaker 1: you know, pretty much on the verge, and so you
6:53
Speaker 1: just kind of had to be a little careful, you know,
6:55
Speaker 1: and just make sure that way you're getting as straight
6:57
Speaker 1: is good. But yeah, like you would never associated with Jewel.
7:02
Speaker 1: That's just not the problem.
7:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was it was two completely different things, and
7:09
Speaker 2: knowing that that happened makes me not completely unsympathetic with
7:14
Speaker 2: what I guess we'll call them the right is saying
7:18
Speaker 2: about ivermectin, which is that it's there is some possibly
7:25
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical industry influence right behind the I would call it
7:31
Speaker 2: demonization of this drug.
7:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, the dragging, I guess yea parlance, and it's like
7:39
Speaker 1: the it's something that people, you know, in the way
7:43
Speaker 1: that that online discourse tends to do. It has become
7:48
Speaker 1: the keyword that that you can clown on. It's just
7:51
Speaker 1: the thing that you slot into a joke.
7:53
Speaker 2: And I'm suspicious of that because to write this drug
7:59
Speaker 2: off as just something that is for horses is very misleading,
8:06
Speaker 2: and I think there's been a lot of misleading reporting
8:09
Speaker 2: around this. I feel like I'm gonna have to say
8:10
Speaker 2: this every ten minutes. I am not endorsing this drug.
8:15
Speaker 2: I'm not a doctor. I don't know if it works.
8:18
Speaker 2: I hope I never have to find out because I
8:20
Speaker 2: don't want to have COVID. So, like I I'm not
8:24
Speaker 2: saying I'm not siding with anyone in this yeah argument here.
8:30
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not, definitely, absolutely not. Like the kinds of
8:35
Speaker 1: right wing grifters who are latching onto this as a
8:39
Speaker 1: way to earn themselves money in infamy, Like, you know,
8:43
Speaker 1: absolutely not, like it's just that again, this is a
8:47
Speaker 1: more nuanced situation than you know, I said earlier. Don't
8:52
Speaker 1: take medical advice or you know, take drugs that aren't
8:55
Speaker 1: from your doctor. But also you know, don't get your
9:00
Speaker 1: medical information from some comic that you follow on Twitter
9:04
Speaker 1: who's like dunkin on something for easy points. Like it's
9:08
Speaker 1: just you know, this is easy. You gotta find out that.
9:11
Speaker 1: Don't paint this entire drug with the same brush just
9:14
Speaker 1: because it's being used by some weirdos.
9:18
Speaker 2: Right and being used improperly be weirdos, which is a
9:22
Speaker 2: very important point. Yeah, And like, far be it from
9:26
Speaker 2: me to suggest that the pharmaceutical industry would gamble with
9:30
Speaker 2: human lives in the name of protecting their profits. I mean,
9:34
Speaker 2: they handled the opioid crisis so well.
9:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely it has. It caused so much damage so
9:42
Speaker 1: much of the country.
9:44
Speaker 2: Yeah so, But but there are people who are suggesting
9:47
Speaker 2: that and one of the things that they're claiming is
9:50
Speaker 2: that the talking points around this drug are or I
9:54
Speaker 2: don't know if people are even claiming it. But when
9:56
Speaker 2: you look into it, the talking points around this drug
9:59
Speaker 2: are really sensationalized and leave out a lot of information
10:04
Speaker 2: that make this drug seem like something it's not. So
10:08
Speaker 2: that's all I want to talk about. I'm not here
10:10
Speaker 2: to tell you to take drugs. I'm not going to
10:12
Speaker 2: tell you you're stupid. If you actually consult a doctor and
10:18
Speaker 2: they give you a human dose of this drug, that's
10:21
Speaker 2: a fucking like, it's trial and error, baby. Covid is
10:26
Speaker 2: a new and exciting time.
10:28
Speaker 1: Right exactly. Yeah, No, I might call you stupid if
10:31
Speaker 1: you take a pill from a box that has a
10:34
Speaker 1: horse on it.
10:35
Speaker 2: If you take the horse version of this, you are
10:38
Speaker 2: an idiot.
10:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, look, I'm not gonna say I won't make
10:42
Speaker 1: fun of you for that. But like as far as
10:45
Speaker 1: taking the actual drug ivermectin, seriously, I am for it,
10:50
Speaker 1: Like I want to know get to the bottom of
10:53
Speaker 1: like what is actually going on with this drug, what
10:55
Speaker 1: does it actually do instead of just riding it off altogether.
10:59
Speaker 2: And that's what's been the thing is you're seeing a
11:02
Speaker 2: lot of people their knee jerk reaction to this story
11:06
Speaker 2: is well, it doesn't work for covid, right, and it's like, no,
11:10
Speaker 2: there's no proof or evidence so far that it works
11:13
Speaker 2: for COVID, but there also isn't that much that says
11:16
Speaker 2: it doesn't. There's just not a lot of information, which
11:21
Speaker 2: makes the way they're portraying this drug suspicious to me,
11:26
Speaker 2: because if it comes to pass that there are some
11:29
Speaker 2: benefits for COVID to be had from taking this drug,
11:33
Speaker 2: most of America is still going to think of it
11:35
Speaker 2: as what the horse drug. I'm not taking fucking horse
11:38
Speaker 2: drugs for COVID, and it's not really a horse.
11:42
Speaker 1: Drug, no, I mean, yeah, of course, this is the thing.
11:47
Speaker 1: It's not like they change like the chemicals for you know,
11:52
Speaker 1: every drug if it's going to be administered to a
11:55
Speaker 1: human or an animal, like obviously there are differences, but
11:58
Speaker 1: like usually it's dosage is the huge difference.
12:01
Speaker 2: It's it's dosage and it's the non active ingredients that
12:06
Speaker 2: they put in animal drugs. Those aren't The FDA isn't
12:10
Speaker 2: evaluating how safe the non active ingredient in a horse
12:14
Speaker 2: drug is if people take it, because people aren't supposed
12:19
Speaker 2: to take horse drugs, and obviously the dosage is gonna
12:23
Speaker 2: be different between a human and an animal. That would
12:28
Speaker 2: destroy your car if it walked on it. Yeah, like
12:32
Speaker 2: it's gonna take different doses to do the thing you
12:35
Speaker 2: wanted to do, And it's just it's those are not
12:38
Speaker 2: dice you should roll under any circumstances, exactly, Like it's
12:43
Speaker 2: it's it reminds me of boric acid, which boric acid
12:47
Speaker 2: comes in a couple different versions. There is a supplement
12:51
Speaker 2: version that women can use to combat yeast infections. There
12:56
Speaker 2: is also a version that kills roaches. And I have
13:01
Speaker 2: no doubt that the supplement version might kill a roach,
13:05
Speaker 2: but I'm also confident you shouldn't put the roach version
13:08
Speaker 2: in your body.
13:10
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's fair to say.
13:12
Speaker 2: There's a reason they're marketed as two different things, and
13:17
Speaker 2: it's the same thing here, Like, this isn't an outbreak
13:22
Speaker 2: of doctors prescribing ivermectin and it's putting people in the hospital, right,
13:26
Speaker 2: This is people taking horse drugs, right, which no one
13:30
Speaker 2: has told them to do or if they were told
13:33
Speaker 2: to do it. It was like a Facebook post, Like,
13:36
Speaker 2: at no point have the doctors who are pushing this
13:38
Speaker 2: been like, you know, if you can't afford it, just
13:40
Speaker 2: take the horse version.
13:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, not happening. What's interesting, and this is actually making
13:45
Speaker 1: me think of something related, which is, like, you know,
13:50
Speaker 1: I'm a trans woman. I don't know if that's coming
13:52
Speaker 1: as a surprise to anyone listen to the show. What
13:56
Speaker 1: it doesn't really come up A lot We're talking about
13:59
Speaker 1: like a lot really fuck up shit. But half the
14:02
Speaker 1: room gets up and leaves. Yeah. Sorry, I'm sorry, Adam,
14:05
Speaker 1: I just lost. I mean, we have an agenda to
14:07
Speaker 1: push here. It is true, it is true, but like
14:10
Speaker 1: a thing that happens among trans women is if they
14:15
Speaker 1: are unable to get a real prescription for hormone replacement
14:23
Speaker 1: therapy so estra dile or spinalactone and those things, or
14:28
Speaker 1: they have other reasons why that is something that is
14:32
Speaker 1: hard for them to get a hold of, then out
14:35
Speaker 1: of desperation that they'll get like birth control or something
14:40
Speaker 1: like that that has a highly concentrated dose of hormones
14:45
Speaker 1: like progesterone inside of it, and that can have serious
14:49
Speaker 1: side effects even if it might have some positive effects,
14:53
Speaker 1: but probably not because that's not how the human body works,
14:56
Speaker 1: but like it can lead to a lot of things
15:00
Speaker 1: that weren't foreseen because you're using this drug that even
15:04
Speaker 1: though it's superficially and even chemically similar to the drug
15:08
Speaker 1: that you want or need to take. It's just designed
15:11
Speaker 1: for a different purpose. They it's just made for something else,
15:15
Speaker 1: and it'll hurt you if you don't use it for
15:16
Speaker 1: that purpose. It's similar. Like, that's just what this is
15:20
Speaker 1: reminding me of a lot of.
15:21
Speaker 2: That is exactly what it is. There are people who
15:24
Speaker 2: are hearing that this works for COVID and either because
15:30
Speaker 2: prescription drugs are expensive and they can't afford it, or
15:34
Speaker 2: because their doctor is not of the mind that this works.
15:38
Speaker 1: Which here's the thing. That's your doctor's right. It's a doctor.
15:41
Speaker 2: Like that's why second opinions are a thing. Yeah, Like,
15:44
Speaker 2: if you really want this drug, go to a fucking
15:46
Speaker 2: doctor that'll give it to you.
15:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, like go to a bunch of them.
15:50
Speaker 2: Again, you're rolling the fucking dice on your life. But yeah,
15:54
Speaker 2: that's I guess that's your right. And if your doctor
15:57
Speaker 2: doesn't want to give it to you, there are people
15:59
Speaker 2: who are to get around that whole propaganda, are getting
16:03
Speaker 2: the animal version.
16:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing, Like, you have a lot
16:07
Speaker 1: better chances if you uh roll the dice on your
16:10
Speaker 1: own life with human mate like medicine made for humans
16:14
Speaker 1: rather than medicine made for animals. You'd probably better off
16:16
Speaker 1: trying to find some quack who will prescribe you whatever
16:19
Speaker 1: you want, even if it's you know, not correct for you,
16:23
Speaker 1: then getting the animal version.
16:25
Speaker 2: Right, because at least that doctor has some liability if
16:29
Speaker 2: they do something to hurt you.
16:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. And whereas getting the one made for people.
16:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, whereas Chuck at the farm and Fleet, he'll sell
16:37
Speaker 2: you all the fucking horse drugs you want. Yeah, because uh,
16:41
Speaker 2: he didn't tell you to take it.
16:43
Speaker 1: Look, just's getting paid minimum wage. He's just out there
16:47
Speaker 1: at the tractor's supply store. You know he can't. He's
16:50
Speaker 1: not there to give you medical advice. It is, I'm
16:53
Speaker 1: begging you.
16:54
Speaker 2: That is the problem right now, is people are taking
16:59
Speaker 2: animal drugs. But here's another reason why I don't tie
17:03
Speaker 2: this to COVID, snake oil salesman. This was happening before COVID.
17:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is interesting because I had not heard about.
17:12
Speaker 2: This because among the things ivermectin can treat is roseasha,
17:18
Speaker 2: and it treats roseesha in humans. There is a topical
17:22
Speaker 2: version of ivermectin for humans, and back in twenty nineteen
17:28
Speaker 2: there were all of these news reports about people with
17:32
Speaker 2: Roseisha who couldn't get an ivermicden prescription. They were going
17:37
Speaker 2: out and getting the animal version and rubbing it on
17:39
Speaker 2: their skin and guess what poison they were poisoned?
17:44
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you very bad.
17:46
Speaker 2: And because COVID is so much more of a politically
17:50
Speaker 2: charged disease than roseisha. Yeah, it's just that the articles
17:56
Speaker 2: are way different this time, right, and it's being treated
18:01
Speaker 2: like the snake oil salesman thing. And it's like, even
18:05
Speaker 2: though there not once does it come up that the
18:08
Speaker 2: people who are doing this are actual Trump supporters. I
18:11
Speaker 2: think it's inferred because, for one thing, Fox News has
18:15
Speaker 2: been the one outlet pushing ivermectin the right.
18:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely so.
18:20
Speaker 2: It kind of stands to reason, and I think that's
18:23
Speaker 2: why it's getting tied to this idea of COVID snake
18:27
Speaker 2: oil salesman.
18:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think it's interesting in that, you know,
18:32
Speaker 1: it is coming after a long year of a bunch
18:35
Speaker 1: of different stories like this, you know, maybe not in
18:39
Speaker 1: the details, but in the broad you know, the headline strokes,
18:44
Speaker 1: the tweet strokes. But like, you know, I think the
18:48
Speaker 1: big difference between this and what's happening in twenty nineteen
18:51
Speaker 1: is that there is this infrastructure of right wing pundits
18:57
Speaker 1: in place who are pushing these were They're ready to
19:00
Speaker 1: jump on this shit and push it as quick as
19:02
Speaker 1: they can reres it seems like in twenty nine, like
19:04
Speaker 1: what was happening in twenty nineteen is like, you know,
19:07
Speaker 1: like a bunch of people just kind of heard about
19:09
Speaker 1: ivermectin and like they're like, oh, well, that sounds like
19:12
Speaker 1: what's in this horse ty warmer? I bet, I bet
19:15
Speaker 1: if I used that, then it'll have the same effect
19:18
Speaker 1: and I won't have to worry about But like that,
19:20
Speaker 1: to me, it's at least different in tone than Yes,
19:25
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who are politically disinclined to agree
19:30
Speaker 1: with every approved treatment of COVID searching around to find
19:37
Speaker 1: whatever is not approved that seems like it could actually
19:40
Speaker 1: work right.
19:41
Speaker 2: Right, And it's I'll bring this up more at the
19:45
Speaker 2: end of the episode, But just on the off chance
19:47
Speaker 2: anyone thinks I'm being too kind to the right, I
19:51
Speaker 2: would say, wasn't COVID not real?
19:55
Speaker 1: Like a month ago? This is what has been dry
19:58
Speaker 1: like again, been very indisposed for two for the last
20:02
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. But every time I would hear a
20:05
Speaker 1: story about I rebected it, I would just be like, Yeah,
20:08
Speaker 1: you guys were just talking about not wanting to get
20:10
Speaker 1: vaccines for for like the last several months, and now
20:15
Speaker 1: you want to put this random drug in your body.
20:18
Speaker 1: Like this just doesn't really stand up to any sort
20:20
Speaker 1: of scrutiny.
20:21
Speaker 2: And especially when you take into account that one of
20:25
Speaker 2: the arguments here is, well, this is big pharma trying
20:28
Speaker 2: to suppress a drug that would really help with COVID people.
20:33
Speaker 2: MERK owns this drug. Yeah, that is big pharma. Again,
20:40
Speaker 2: calm down and wait to let them fucking test it.
20:45
Speaker 2: MERK put a statement out on their website and they
20:48
Speaker 2: were like, we don't know, we don't And here's here's
20:51
Speaker 2: part of the reason. It is kind of pharmaceutical company shenanigans.
20:54
Speaker 2: This drug is a drug that benefits, up to this point,
20:58
Speaker 2: almost exclusively poor people. Like it is a drug that
21:02
Speaker 2: was designed to eradicate diseases that mostly impact poor people,
21:07
Speaker 2: which means MRK has historically not made any money on
21:10
Speaker 2: this drug. They literally give it away for free. Yeah,
21:14
Speaker 2: so there probably hasn't been a lot of R and
21:17
Speaker 2: D inside Mirk when it comes to this drug. So
21:21
Speaker 2: if you're wondering why are they just now getting on it,
21:24
Speaker 2: it's because they don't give a fuck about poor people,
21:27
Speaker 2: except for the part where they give them life saving medications.
21:30
Speaker 1: But right, of course, of course, but it's.
21:32
Speaker 2: Just not I don't think Mirk has been that interested
21:36
Speaker 2: in this drug. And I guarantee if they find out
21:38
Speaker 2: it's some kind of cure all for covid, the don't
21:41
Speaker 2: fucking let you know, yeah, one like you would have
21:45
Speaker 2: to nuke Mirk to stop that from happening.
21:48
Speaker 1: But also like and look, I'm not a scientist, I'm
21:51
Speaker 1: not a doctor. I don't I'm basically so many revelations
21:55
Speaker 1: on this, I say, no, I'm basically a functioning moron.
21:59
Speaker 1: I I don't really have much going for me in intelligence.
22:02
Speaker 1: But like, COVID is a virus, and we're talking about
22:08
Speaker 1: you know, it needs like a vaccine, It has to
22:10
Speaker 1: be treated. You have to build up your bodies antibodies
22:13
Speaker 1: in order to kill it off. Like you can't really
22:17
Speaker 1: kill a virus with like a pill that you swallow.
22:21
Speaker 1: Really not really.
22:22
Speaker 2: Right now, I mean no, there there are drugs that
22:26
Speaker 2: have anti viral properties.
22:28
Speaker 1: That right a little suppress a virus or whatever, right,
22:32
Speaker 1: And that's that is one of the points of contention
22:36
Speaker 1: here is that, well, this is an anti parasite drug exactly.
22:40
Speaker 1: That's the thing that I'm kind of sticking on. But well, I.
22:43
Speaker 2: Know, I put a shit ton of links in here,
22:45
Speaker 2: and listen. If you're one of those, oh I do
22:47
Speaker 2: my own research types, fucking buckle up.
22:50
Speaker 1: When you read the show notes for this.
22:52
Speaker 2: There are if you look at the way, like, let's
22:55
Speaker 2: go back to people using this for roseatia, right, and
23:00
Speaker 2: why would people do that? If you look at the
23:02
Speaker 2: way this drug was marketed before covid, it was pushed
23:07
Speaker 2: as a miracle drug. Yes, it's an anti parasite drug,
23:11
Speaker 2: but for one it basically eradicated the diseases it was
23:17
Speaker 2: intended to eradicate. And there's all these write ups we'll
23:21
Speaker 2: talk about them in a minute where it's literally called
23:24
Speaker 2: a wonder drug and it's described as maybe having all
23:27
Speaker 2: of these anti viral properties for other drugs. So of
23:30
Speaker 2: course people were gonna hear that and be like, fuck,
23:33
Speaker 2: I'll put the I'll put the horse version on me.
23:35
Speaker 2: What's it gonna do turn me into a horse? That's fine,
23:38
Speaker 2: horses are powerful.
23:39
Speaker 1: I enjoy it. That'd be great.
23:42
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the CDC advisory. Yes, I think
23:45
Speaker 2: there are some interesting things in the CDC advisory And
23:51
Speaker 2: one of the things that always makes me suspicious is
23:54
Speaker 2: when scary numbers are only presented in percentages.
23:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, that's.
23:59
Speaker 2: Something A lot of the the reason we're bringing this
24:02
Speaker 2: up is this is where a lot of the articles
24:04
Speaker 2: about ivermectin. This is what they're referencing. Is this and
24:08
Speaker 2: the FDA statement, which we'll talk about, and that obnoxious
24:12
Speaker 2: FDA tweet which we'll also get to. But uh, in
24:15
Speaker 2: this case, you hear all these shocking statistics about how
24:19
Speaker 2: calls to US poison control centers about ivermectin exposures have
24:24
Speaker 2: increased fivefold from pre pandemic baseline levels. And that's scary.
24:30
Speaker 2: But can I have the numbers? Did it go from
24:33
Speaker 2: like one to five? Did it go from five to
24:36
Speaker 2: twenty five? Did it go from a thout? Like?
24:38
Speaker 1: What does that mean? In actual numbers?
24:40
Speaker 2: And no one really that I did find like individual
24:45
Speaker 2: poison control centers that listed actual numbers, and they were
24:48
Speaker 2: like in the thirties and forties a week, which is
24:52
Speaker 2: I ain't it's not nothing.
24:54
Speaker 1: Right, No, it's definitely a trend. But even then you
24:58
Speaker 1: need to know because again, we're talking about a drug
25:01
Speaker 1: that does come in a human form, that has been
25:04
Speaker 1: proven to be relatively safe to take. It's safe and
25:07
Speaker 1: effective for the things that it's prescribed.
25:09
Speaker 2: For, right, and then there's the animal drug it is
25:13
Speaker 2: not safe to take.
25:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, don't do that.
25:15
Speaker 2: So how many of these poison control calls are because
25:19
Speaker 2: of the animal kind and then how many.
25:22
Speaker 1: Of those were the result of a doctor.
25:25
Speaker 2: Saying, hey, I think this might work, take it in
25:28
Speaker 2: these doses that are appropriate for human consumption, right, Because
25:32
Speaker 2: one of the numbers in the CDC advisory is that
25:36
Speaker 2: prescriptions for this drug have skyrocketed. One they point to
25:40
Speaker 2: it happening in July, like they don't know why that is.
25:43
Speaker 2: I think it's probably because the delta variant. Yeah, call
25:45
Speaker 2: me crazy, but they say, at one point in August
25:49
Speaker 2: it hit eighty eight thousand prescriptions in one week for
25:53
Speaker 2: this drug. And that's a whole lot of people. Yeah,
25:57
Speaker 2: so what's going on with them?
26:00
Speaker 1: Right? But also, and you know, going with what you
26:03
Speaker 1: were saying about, how many of these percentages were from
26:07
Speaker 1: people taking the horse version, Like, just because a bunch
26:10
Speaker 1: of you know a lot of people got you know, uh,
26:13
Speaker 1: prescriptions for this drug, how is that working out for them? Like?
26:18
Speaker 1: Is that is that doing anything? We don't know? Like,
26:21
Speaker 1: and you have to assume if those are prescriptions, that's
26:24
Speaker 1: separate from the horse drug poisoning, So like, what is
26:28
Speaker 1: happening here? I mean, you know, I would love to know.
26:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, how many of those people were poisoned?
26:33
Speaker 1: Right?
26:33
Speaker 2: Because every article about this and the CDC advisory point
26:38
Speaker 2: to two cases. One a guy who took a version
26:42
Speaker 2: that was intended for use with cattle, and a guy
26:45
Speaker 2: who got pills of quote an undetermined strength end quote
26:50
Speaker 2: from the internet and took five a day until he
26:53
Speaker 2: started hallucinating. I mean, like, look, uh, don't take pills
26:59
Speaker 2: that you don't know off the internet. I don't know
27:02
Speaker 2: that that even needs to be said, but I guess
27:04
Speaker 2: it does. Life isn't a music festival. Don't just take
27:08
Speaker 2: the pills that people hand you, Like, look at a
27:10
Speaker 2: music festival.
27:11
Speaker 1: It's fine. Like I remember when I was in high school,
27:15
Speaker 1: this kid brought to school a baggy that he found
27:18
Speaker 1: as he was walking to school that was full of
27:20
Speaker 1: these purple and black bills and he was like, I
27:23
Speaker 1: think I'm gonna take these, and I'm like, I don't
27:25
Speaker 1: think you shouldn't. We don't know what those are. And
27:29
Speaker 1: then he took them, and that kid, uh, you know,
27:33
Speaker 1: he was kind of fucked up, like, I don't know necessary.
27:38
Speaker 1: He was not acting very normal for the rest of
27:40
Speaker 1: the day. I don't know what those bills were still,
27:43
Speaker 1: but like, that's just all I can think about when
27:45
Speaker 1: someone talks about getting a bunch of undisclosed pills off
27:49
Speaker 1: of the internet, it's like, you have no idea you're
27:51
Speaker 1: gonna end up. You're gonna end up sticking your hand
27:54
Speaker 1: in a bull of hot water until it burns, just
27:57
Speaker 1: like that kid did.
27:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the things you see when they're
28:02
Speaker 2: warning about this drug is well, you can overdose on it,
28:06
Speaker 2: and it's like you can overdose on taylanol. Jesus, Yeah,
28:10
Speaker 2: Like that's that's not a unique trait. And they'll point
28:15
Speaker 2: to like, well, it can give you some tum Tums
28:19
Speaker 2: can give you some tummy issues if you take it.
28:21
Speaker 2: And it's like listen to any prescription drug commercial. At
28:24
Speaker 2: the end, there are several that end with and even death. Yes,
28:30
Speaker 2: but sometimes the risks don't outweigh the benefit.
28:34
Speaker 1: And also a lot of times, you know, those risks
28:38
Speaker 1: are very low in the right they have to list
28:42
Speaker 1: it because they have to cover their ass.
28:45
Speaker 2: And yeah, so I don't think it's a right wing
28:48
Speaker 2: talking point to ask what happened to the people this
28:52
Speaker 2: was prescribed to? Where are those crazy stories about them
28:58
Speaker 2: calling poison controls?
29:00
Speaker 1: That is not really a politically charged statement, Like that
29:04
Speaker 1: is just the basically what it shouldn't be. No, shouldn't be,
29:07
Speaker 1: but like that's the basic of what you should be
29:09
Speaker 1: asking of a government agency is please give me the action,
29:14
Speaker 1: like the facts of the situation as you understand them.
29:18
Speaker 2: And like I I can't completely fault the CDC here
29:23
Speaker 2: because they this is not approved for use with COVID,
29:27
Speaker 2: so they can't they can't paint it in any way
29:30
Speaker 2: that makes it seem like it is their job here
29:33
Speaker 2: is to scare people into not taking animal drugs.
29:38
Speaker 1: Like and you know, and again, like we were saying
29:41
Speaker 1: at the beginning, just the whole the whole thing here,
29:44
Speaker 1: and what they're trying to say is don't take drugs,
29:48
Speaker 1: like consult your doctor before you take a new drug,
29:52
Speaker 1: get a prescription, go through the right channels. You know,
29:55
Speaker 1: no one is saying that you absolutely, positively should never
30:00
Speaker 1: take ivermectin ever, or else you're a fucking crazy person.
30:04
Speaker 1: They're just saying, fucking talk to an expert, talk to
30:06
Speaker 1: someone who knows bodies.
30:08
Speaker 2: But I do feel like that once the CDC put
30:13
Speaker 2: this statement out, the media kind of ran with it
30:16
Speaker 2: as look, people barely ever take this like this is
30:20
Speaker 2: this is a drug for animals, so steer clear and
30:24
Speaker 2: uh not quite. But uh, before we get to that,
30:28
Speaker 2: let's talk about the FDA statement, because a lot of
30:30
Speaker 2: the articles you read just say the FDA has not
30:33
Speaker 2: approved ivermectin for treatment of COVID and they just leave
30:36
Speaker 2: it at that. But uh, I guess the most well
30:39
Speaker 2: known FDA response was they tweeted, you are not a horse,
30:44
Speaker 2: you are not a cow. Seriously, y'all, stop it and listen.
30:47
Speaker 2: Don't fucking seriously y'all me you were the FDA and
30:51
Speaker 2: we were in the middle of a pandemic. Put on
30:53
Speaker 2: a goddamn suit and do your job. But trying to
30:56
Speaker 2: be charming on the fucking internet.
30:58
Speaker 1: Put on a god damn suit. Absolutely, Yeah, this is
31:03
Speaker 1: one of the blessings of being overwhelmingly busy and unable
31:09
Speaker 1: to look at Twitter. Has been that. I missed that completely.
31:13
Speaker 1: I did not see that tweet and I did not
31:16
Speaker 1: know about it until you put it in these notes,
31:20
Speaker 1: and I hated it so much. I really despised reading it.
31:25
Speaker 1: This is a whole mood. The animal version just hits different.
31:29
Speaker 1: I shut up, like I just I absolutely hate it
31:34
Speaker 1: when government officials use Twitter. I hate it so much.
31:38
Speaker 2: The minute Obama started doing it, we should have been like, nope.
31:41
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not, no, you are banned, banned, but we
31:45
Speaker 1: did not because he was so nice. No, no, no,
31:48
Speaker 1: no one should have a Twitter. If you if you
31:50
Speaker 1: are paid by me, like in my tax dollars. Agreed.
31:55
Speaker 2: So the real FDA statement is a little more substanti.
32:00
Speaker 1: And it's it's kind of alarming to me, Like.
32:04
Speaker 2: Not completely, but the point one of the points that
32:08
Speaker 2: really stood out under the UH when can taking ivermectin
32:11
Speaker 2: be unsafe?
32:12
Speaker 1: Heading? The first line is the.
32:14
Speaker 2: FDA has not reviewed data to support you some ivormectin
32:18
Speaker 2: in COVID nineteen patients to treat or to prevent COVID nineteen.
32:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like okay, why not? Yeah, But also like
32:25
Speaker 1: I mean I don't know, like that's kind of fair, Like,
32:28
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like ivermectin would be anyone's first
32:32
Speaker 1: like thought about this, and COVID nineteen has been around
32:37
Speaker 1: since I would say, I'm going to just go out
32:39
Speaker 1: of live here and say late twenty nineteen based on
32:43
Speaker 1: the name, So, like, you know, I would guess it
32:48
Speaker 1: makes sense to me that they have not done that.
32:51
Speaker 1: But at the same time, that should be their statement,
32:55
Speaker 1: not this fucking seriously y'all tweet like, we have not
33:01
Speaker 1: reviewed this data. We are currently investigating, we do not
33:04
Speaker 1: really have all the information. We're trying to find it out.
33:07
Speaker 1: Do not take a drug that does not prescribed to
33:09
Speaker 1: you by a doctor, right, And that's it. That's all
33:11
Speaker 1: it is, guys. And I'm not even a professional. Yeah.
33:14
Speaker 2: And another thing I found interesting that I feel like
33:19
Speaker 2: a lot of media reports about this are leaving out
33:22
Speaker 2: is that after that statement about not reviewing data, they
33:25
Speaker 2: did add some initial research is underway, which you might
33:29
Speaker 2: recognize as being a far cry from.
33:32
Speaker 1: Lol horse drugs.
33:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's where I feel like people on the
33:38
Speaker 2: left who are responding to this also like, actually all
33:42
Speaker 2: sides taken that one statement, right, calm down, like it's
33:50
Speaker 2: clearly not just a horse drug. If trials and research
33:54
Speaker 2: are underway, which we'll get to. There's a lot of
33:57
Speaker 2: research underway, I would say.
33:59
Speaker 1: In this applies to a lot of stuff on the internet.
34:04
Speaker 1: But if you had not heard of ivermectin before two
34:11
Speaker 1: weeks ago, I would say, you are not allowed to
34:15
Speaker 1: be outraged by it until you find out a little
34:19
Speaker 1: bit more information. That's all it is, like I And look,
34:22
Speaker 1: I get the knee jerk, Like you see the usual
34:27
Speaker 1: right wing peddlers and grifters latching onto this as their
34:31
Speaker 1: way to get infamy and whatever. Like I understand that
34:35
Speaker 1: knee jerk. I wanna be as far away from those
34:39
Speaker 1: assholes as I possibly can. But you can't just throw
34:42
Speaker 1: the baby out with the pathwater, so to speak. You know,
34:46
Speaker 1: like you gotta. You're supposed to like you know, if
34:50
Speaker 1: you're on the left, or even if you're a liberal.
34:53
Speaker 1: I'll extend this to the centrist too. You're supposed to
34:57
Speaker 1: be the ones who think about things and take shit
35:00
Speaker 1: seriously and listen to the experts and fucking like appreciate nuance.
35:06
Speaker 1: Do that. Yeah, that's what I would say.
35:09
Speaker 2: And in light of that, you would have to ask yourself, well,
35:13
Speaker 2: why is the FDA even considering this exactly if it's
35:17
Speaker 2: just a horse drug, which is what it's being portrayed as.
35:20
Speaker 1: And it's because it's not a horse drug. It is
35:23
Speaker 1: a widely.
35:24
Speaker 2: Used medicine that earned the people who developed it a
35:28
Speaker 2: Nobel Prize for Medicine in twenty fifteen. Yeah, it's produced
35:33
Speaker 2: from a micro organism that was discovered in nineteen seventy
35:37
Speaker 2: three by a researcher named Satoshi Omura, and that evolved
35:41
Speaker 2: into a veterinary drug that entered the market way back
35:45
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty one. But a few short years later,
35:48
Speaker 2: I think it was nineteen eighty seven, it was confirmed
35:51
Speaker 2: to be useful for treating some human conditions also, so
35:55
Speaker 2: they synthesized it into a human version. Specifically, it was
35:59
Speaker 2: provided free of charge to poverty stricken populations to treat
36:03
Speaker 2: a condition called on co circiiasis, mercifully nicknamed river blindness.
36:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's just go with very violence. I think you
36:13
Speaker 1: actually nailed it. That. That is a fucking toughie. That
36:17
Speaker 1: is a tough word.
36:18
Speaker 2: And uh, that's what o'mura and his research partner William Bell,
36:23
Speaker 2: who by the way represents murk.
36:25
Speaker 1: He is the murk half of the development of this.
36:29
Speaker 2: So again, if you think this is big Pharma suppressing it,
36:32
Speaker 2: you're probably right, but it's also big Pharma pushing it.
36:36
Speaker 1: His name was William Bell from Fringe, who's played by
36:39
Speaker 1: Leonard Nimoy. Sorry, I love the show Fringe, and there's
36:44
Speaker 1: like a major character played by Leonard Nimoy on the
36:46
Speaker 1: show whose name is William Bell, and he's a mad
36:49
Speaker 1: scientist who went to another dimensions. The whole thing probably
36:51
Speaker 1: is him. It might be.
36:53
Speaker 2: Hey, it's come from aliens. And it didn't just treat
36:58
Speaker 2: river blindness. It damn near a eradicated river blindness, which again,
37:03
Speaker 2: like that doesn't sound all that interesting to American listeners
37:06
Speaker 2: because we live in a developed nation with air conditioning
37:10
Speaker 2: and Nintendo Virtual Boys in all the fucking trappings of
37:14
Speaker 2: modern life. River blindness is a tropics disease that almost
37:19
Speaker 2: exclusively impacts poor people. But before ivermectin it was billions
37:24
Speaker 2: of poor people, right, And I don't know, does that
37:28
Speaker 2: do anything for anyone in terms of how dangerous it
37:30
Speaker 2: is from a side effect standpoint. Like one of the
37:34
Speaker 2: things that bothers me about the way this is being
37:36
Speaker 2: reported is this notion that it's rarely used in humans.
37:40
Speaker 2: It is globally used in humans. And even when you
37:46
Speaker 2: look at the CDC statement about the number of prescriptions
37:49
Speaker 2: and how it's skyrocketed, there were prescriptions for it before COVID, Like,
37:54
Speaker 2: it didn't go from zero to a whole bunch. It
37:57
Speaker 2: was like three thousand sum a week before that. That's
38:00
Speaker 2: not like it's not aspirin, but that's not rare.
38:03
Speaker 1: Well no, yeah, it's I don't know, man, it's just again,
38:07
Speaker 1: this is this is the whole thing about kind of
38:11
Speaker 1: getting into like the discourse, like the the state of
38:15
Speaker 1: discourse in America is just it takes something that you
38:18
Speaker 1: know has a lot of nuance and it flattens it
38:21
Speaker 1: out and it makes it into good guys and bad guys,
38:24
Speaker 1: and it totally dismisses all of this history, which is
38:29
Speaker 1: not only useful in analyzing how good the drug could
38:33
Speaker 1: be today, but also interesting and like it's good to
38:35
Speaker 1: know this shit.
38:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, ivermectin on its own is just a fascinating story. Yeah,
38:41
Speaker 2: everything about it is very interesting. And if you look
38:44
Speaker 2: at how it was pushed before COVID. I mentioned this
38:48
Speaker 2: a little earlier, but before it got tied to this.
38:51
Speaker 2: Here's a headline from the Journal of Antibiotics in twenty seventeen,
38:56
Speaker 2: so well before COVID. This is a fucking medical journal, right,
38:59
Speaker 2: which medical journal doesn't mean like all of medicine agrees
39:02
Speaker 2: with this, like it was.
39:04
Speaker 1: Best reviewed and then they was published.
39:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why there are trials for things. You
39:11
Speaker 2: try stuff and see if it works. And this is
39:14
Speaker 2: a headline from twenty seventeen, Enigmatic multifaceted wonder drug continues
39:20
Speaker 2: to surprise and exceed expectations. And this is another one
39:25
Speaker 2: from I believe twenty eleven from the beloved Proceedings of
39:29
Speaker 2: the Japan Academy Series B Physical and Biological Sciences. Save
39:34
Speaker 2: more than eleven percent on an annual subscription when you
39:37
Speaker 2: use code on pops it check out.
39:38
Speaker 1: Damn that's a good catch for a sponsor. Yeah, it's
39:41
Speaker 1: a good deal too. Yeah.
39:42
Speaker 2: It's a very expensive journal, yes, especially the part where
39:46
Speaker 2: you have to pay someone to translate it. Here is
39:49
Speaker 2: the headline from that article ivermectin wonder drug from Japan
39:54
Speaker 2: the Human Use Perspective. Granted that last one was co
39:57
Speaker 2: written by Satoshi Omura. The developer of the drug. But
40:01
Speaker 2: again he went on to win the Nobel Prize for
40:04
Speaker 2: what he was writing about.
40:05
Speaker 1: So seems like a guy that you might be want
40:08
Speaker 1: to listen to. I'm gonna say so it.
40:10
Speaker 2: I feel like we're being a little too dismissive of
40:14
Speaker 2: this just because you can also treat horses with it.
40:17
Speaker 2: Why are we mad at horse drugs ketamines a fucking
40:20
Speaker 2: horse drug, right, well, yeah, specials.
40:23
Speaker 1: I would say it's very special. Horses probably love it too.
40:30
Speaker 2: Now let's talk about the I think quality rebuttal, which
40:35
Speaker 2: is that, well, this is a parasite drug, it's not
40:37
Speaker 2: an anti viral. Let's go back to that Journal of
40:40
Speaker 2: Antibiotics report, last sentence of the first paragraph. Today, Ivermectin
40:45
Speaker 2: is continuing to surprise and excite scientists, offering more and
40:49
Speaker 2: more promise to help improve global public health by treating
40:53
Speaker 2: a diverse range of diseases, with its unexpected potential as
40:57
Speaker 2: an anti bacterial, anti hi viral, and anti cancer agent
41:02
Speaker 2: being particularly extraordinary. And again that is twoenty seventeen, So
41:08
Speaker 2: that's not a snake oil salesman saying hey, this could
41:12
Speaker 2: maybe help with viruses also, And also I'll link y'all
41:17
Speaker 2: to a report from the Journal of Controlled Release, which
41:21
Speaker 2: great fucking name for one thing.
41:24
Speaker 1: That's a good band Controlled Release.
41:27
Speaker 2: Or Journal of Controlled Release name go all out. It's
41:32
Speaker 2: a medical journal dedicated to research on the controlled release
41:36
Speaker 2: and delivery of drugs, so it's.
41:39
Speaker 1: Not bright part.
41:40
Speaker 2: Here is a line from that report, which, for the record,
41:44
Speaker 2: is called ivermectin, an award winning drug with expected anti
41:47
Speaker 2: viral activity against COVID nineteen, last line of the first
41:51
Speaker 2: paragraph under the commentary section beyond its invaluable therapeutic role
41:55
Speaker 2: in river blindness, and I forgot, there's two things.
42:01
Speaker 1: It treats strongly oidy assis strong eloyd.
42:08
Speaker 2: Wow, a more professional podcast network has someone on staff
42:13
Speaker 2: who confirms this kind of stuff, Because I know someone
42:16
Speaker 2: who does that job for a more professional podcast network.
42:19
Speaker 1: S trongaloidiasis. I'm gonna go with that. I think that
42:22
Speaker 1: sounds good. I think you got it.
42:24
Speaker 2: Uh, let me let me start over beyond its invaluable
42:28
Speaker 2: therapeutic role in river blindness and the other one. An
42:33
Speaker 2: increasing body of evidence points to the potential of ivermectin
42:37
Speaker 2: as an anti viral agent, and it goes on to
42:40
Speaker 2: list a few different viruses that it's shown promise in
42:43
Speaker 2: treating and in some cases it's just like in mice
42:46
Speaker 2: and shit.
42:46
Speaker 1: That you hear.
42:47
Speaker 2: But it lists West Nile virus, yellow fever, uh, some
42:51
Speaker 2: leaky forest virus.
42:53
Speaker 1: That that one. We've all had that one. Yeah, I mean,
42:56
Speaker 1: I always get a virus in some leaky forest.
43:02
Speaker 2: It's written by a bunch of doctors, most of them
43:04
Speaker 2: are from Brazil, but there is one American use xenophobic fox.
43:08
Speaker 2: His name's Roger M. LeBlanc from the Department of Chemistry
43:12
Speaker 2: at University of Miami. Not a ton of information about
43:15
Speaker 2: him online, and I think that's a good thing.
43:17
Speaker 1: I mean maybe, I don't know. It's tough to say.
43:21
Speaker 1: It could either be good and that he's a healthy
43:24
Speaker 1: human being who does not have an active online presence,
43:28
Speaker 1: or it could be bad and that he's like a
43:30
Speaker 1: fake person or something. I don't know.
43:31
Speaker 2: I didn't What I didn't find is a bunch of
43:34
Speaker 2: articles about him claiming the election was stolen and that
43:38
Speaker 2: COVID is a hoax. That's what you're wondering. And he
43:42
Speaker 2: is a real person. I found like his page at
43:45
Speaker 2: the University of Miami, and that's I think another important detail.
43:48
Speaker 2: The people pushing this are not COVID deniers, Like, there's
43:52
Speaker 2: no one here saying COVID is fake. But take our
43:54
Speaker 2: drug anyway, Fox News, Right.
43:57
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Yeah, they're just muddying up everything.
44:00
Speaker 2: But the American doctor pushing this the hardest is a
44:03
Speaker 2: guy named doctor Pierre Corey. And aside from there's two things,
44:09
Speaker 2: he's the one pushing ivermectin the most, so that has
44:12
Speaker 2: tainted his reputation. He spoke in front of the Senate
44:16
Speaker 2: and people didn't respond to it very well. Also, one
44:21
Speaker 2: of the doctors he's working with, a guy named Paul Mallick,
44:24
Speaker 2: has this controversy from the past where he was trying
44:29
Speaker 2: to treat God damn it, I forget what the condition was,
44:32
Speaker 2: but he was basically trying to treat it with vitamin
44:34
Speaker 2: C and eventually another medical journal came out and was like,
44:39
Speaker 2: doesn't work, and he admitted it it didn't work. Also,
44:42
Speaker 2: but does that mean he's completely discredited when it comes
44:46
Speaker 2: to medical stuff, because again, that's what trials are for,
44:51
Speaker 2: to see if something works.
44:52
Speaker 1: That's science. You just described A normal science scientist reaction
44:59
Speaker 1: to that sort of thing is like, oh, well, I
45:01
Speaker 1: guessaid this isn't right, then let's try something else.
45:04
Speaker 2: Like that's how it is, And both of these people
45:07
Speaker 2: are still employed in perfectly prominent positions in their field.
45:12
Speaker 2: Pierre Corey spent a lot of years in various roles
45:15
Speaker 2: at the University of Wisconsin and or UW Health, which
45:19
Speaker 2: is the University of Wisconsin's hospital, including working as medical
45:24
Speaker 2: director for the Trauma and Life Support Center. He won
45:27
Speaker 2: an award from the British Medical Association in twenty fifteen
45:31
Speaker 2: for his work on a medical textbook. And it's not
45:35
Speaker 2: like he's pushing this via word of mouth, like he's
45:37
Speaker 2: written a bunch of stuff about this, which is why
45:40
Speaker 2: it bothers me so much. When people are like, show
45:43
Speaker 2: me the evidence, it's like, he's got I don't know
45:46
Speaker 2: if it's valid evidence, but go read it like it's.
45:51
Speaker 2: One of the things people criticize is that he's not
45:53
Speaker 2: doing like controlled clinical trials, And their argument is, well,
45:58
Speaker 2: this is working, and this is a public health emergency.
46:02
Speaker 2: It would be kind of unethical of us to give
46:04
Speaker 2: people a placebo and know that they might die.
46:08
Speaker 1: And I don't know.
46:09
Speaker 2: I don't know about that argument, but I do know
46:13
Speaker 2: that there is history of using stuff that's not completely
46:17
Speaker 2: FDA approved to fight covid. The vaccine was not sure
46:21
Speaker 2: FDA approved, which is another reason it's so ironic. Fox
46:27
Speaker 2: news types are pushing this because what.
46:29
Speaker 1: Was their whole argument?
46:31
Speaker 2: Like, not their whole argument though, Like there was the
46:33
Speaker 2: fringe who was like, it's a government plot to enslave us,
46:38
Speaker 2: But then there was that more level headed response, which is,
46:41
Speaker 2: what's not FDA approved yet, so why would I take it?
46:45
Speaker 2: Once it's FDA approved, I'll take it. Well, this isn't
46:48
Speaker 2: FDA approved for.
46:49
Speaker 1: Covid the and the fucking horse pills for damn sure,
46:52
Speaker 1: aren't you know? Right?
46:54
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know, Like I'm not in a
46:58
Speaker 2: position to judge if the huge document this guy put
47:03
Speaker 2: out about his research in this field is convincing enough
47:07
Speaker 2: to fucking take ivermectin.
47:09
Speaker 1: But I think.
47:10
Speaker 2: It's just another example of how this is not a
47:14
Speaker 2: horse drug. Like there is way more to this story
47:18
Speaker 2: than just some fucking wackos taken animal pills. And do
47:23
Speaker 2: I even want to talk about this fucking Crystaliza article.
47:26
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not gonna lie, man, I did not
47:29
Speaker 1: read it, but fuck yeah, he's he's bad times, he's
47:35
Speaker 1: he's the worst journalists working currently.
47:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if if you're not familiar, he's an opinion
47:41
Speaker 2: columnist for CNN basically, and he wrote this article responding
47:46
Speaker 2: to Rand Paul's assertion that Trump hatred has kept the
47:51
Speaker 2: powers that be from honestly investigating the efficacy of ivormectin
47:56
Speaker 2: in treating COVID and I think he's wrong too.
47:59
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:59
Speaker 2: But first, my problem with Chris Silizza's take is that he,
48:03
Speaker 2: more than a lot of the other articles out there,
48:06
Speaker 2: goes really hard trying to make ivermectin seem like something
48:10
Speaker 2: humans almost never take. He calls it a quote drug
48:15
Speaker 2: used in rare instances in humans. This is a drug
48:19
Speaker 2: again that billions of people have taken globally. And I'm
48:25
Speaker 2: just suspicious when someone reports on something that fucking poorly.
48:30
Speaker 2: Is it just that he's bad at his job? Yes,
48:33
Speaker 2: but is he like this does have some elements to
48:37
Speaker 2: it that feel like a smear campaign. And if anyone
48:40
Speaker 2: is capable of orchestrating a smear campaign in the media,
48:45
Speaker 2: especially from a financial standpoint, it's fucking pharmaceutical companies.
48:50
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, so.
48:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just I'm curious as to why the need
48:55
Speaker 2: to push this drug in these articles all across the
48:59
Speaker 2: media as something that's just for horses and that only
49:04
Speaker 2: people only take it in extreme circumstances. Yeah, Like there's
49:08
Speaker 2: no scientific evidence that proves it can treat COVID, but
49:12
Speaker 2: there's also no reason to act like the actual drug
49:19
Speaker 2: is some kind of unknown thing that we're not familiar
49:21
Speaker 2: with because it's mostly used in animals. There's so much
49:25
Speaker 2: information about this drug out there.
49:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, is it is it possible that it's
49:31
Speaker 1: all just a case of a bunch of people seeing
49:34
Speaker 1: who a lot of the main voices for this are
49:37
Speaker 1: and just writing it off without even bothering to do
49:42
Speaker 1: any work on it. I know that's how it is
49:44
Speaker 1: for anybody who's just tweeting about it, But like it
49:46
Speaker 1: feels like that's what the news outlets are doing too.
49:49
Speaker 1: They're not even putting the effort in to cover it
49:52
Speaker 1: in any sort of proper way.
49:53
Speaker 2: Well, I think it is, and I think that does
49:56
Speaker 2: have a lot to do with it, because again it's
49:58
Speaker 2: mostly like Fox News, I'm sure one American news network
50:02
Speaker 2: is pushing it to and that feels kind of the
50:06
Speaker 2: same along the same lines as like tabloids in the eighties,
50:11
Speaker 2: and nineties, like The National Inquirer was mostly bullshit, but
50:16
Speaker 2: occasionally they would pick up on a story that no
50:19
Speaker 2: one else was covering and they would be right, Like
50:22
Speaker 2: the they basically solve the murder of Bill Cosby's son,
50:26
Speaker 2: and Cosby they are the ones that broke the story
50:29
Speaker 2: that solved that case. Their coverage of the oj trial
50:33
Speaker 2: was fucking impeccable. Sometimes the outlet you don't like gets
50:39
Speaker 2: it right, like the Wall Street Journal is a pretty
50:41
Speaker 2: conservative outlet but also a very respected force in journalism,
50:48
Speaker 2: like it happens. And I'm not saying Fox News is that,
50:51
Speaker 2: but I'm just saying they're not completely wrong in saying
50:56
Speaker 2: this is something people should look into. If they're on
50:58
Speaker 2: there saying take the horse version, that's obviously very well.
51:01
Speaker 1: Well, Like, honestly, I think we can. I think we
51:03
Speaker 1: can very easily just cleanly separate, like our take on
51:09
Speaker 1: this whole thing from what Fox is trying to do,
51:13
Speaker 1: where Fox is just very credulously being like, no, everyone's
51:18
Speaker 1: blowing this weather or it's just drugs, totally fine, this
51:21
Speaker 1: is all you know, this is all but board and whatever,
51:23
Speaker 1: and we're just like, no, like this thing, you just
51:26
Speaker 1: gotta you gotta look into this. There's like a lot
51:28
Speaker 1: of stuff going on here that you just can't easily
51:31
Speaker 1: write off.
51:33
Speaker 2: Right, And on the flip side of that, for for
51:36
Speaker 2: people I guess on the left to have written this off,
51:40
Speaker 2: there are a lot of preliminary trials underway, yeah, for
51:45
Speaker 2: this drug as it relates to COVID. The CDC advisory
51:50
Speaker 2: statement even links to a website called clinical trials dot gov. Yeah,
51:55
Speaker 2: where you can search and see what trials are happening
52:00
Speaker 2: right now. If you run the words ivermectin and COVID
52:05
Speaker 2: through their search engine, you get still scrolling.
52:10
Speaker 1: Seventy five studies. And so I just wait, just give
52:16
Speaker 1: it time.
52:16
Speaker 2: Like people are looking into this. There's no reason to
52:19
Speaker 2: act like this drug is some kind of huge problem
52:24
Speaker 2: when it's not. People taking animal drugs is a huge problem.
52:28
Speaker 2: It was happening before covid.
52:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can't act like this drug is a huge problem.
52:33
Speaker 1: We can't just blindly believe that it is the miracle
52:37
Speaker 1: cure that's gonna save us all from a virus that
52:41
Speaker 1: we don't even believe is real. Like, you know, there's
52:43
Speaker 1: a middle ground here, And you know, I'm no centrist,
52:46
Speaker 1: but like Jesus, Like you know, like this is, this
52:49
Speaker 1: is it's very easy to not immediately leap to the
52:53
Speaker 1: most extreme conclusion in this case, which is I really
52:57
Speaker 1: think that a lot of this is just a full
53:00
Speaker 1: symptom of our already rapid discourse machine just being pumped
53:07
Speaker 1: into overdrive like five times over through the last year,
53:12
Speaker 1: Like everybody spends even more time on their phones and
53:18
Speaker 1: online and on their computers, and it just makes it's
53:23
Speaker 1: accelerated our discourse to a level where we're not even
53:26
Speaker 1: getting We're not even waiting until we get all the
53:29
Speaker 1: information in before everything. We're just jumping on it. We
53:32
Speaker 1: have made a moral proclamation about everything having to do
53:37
Speaker 1: with this subject, and if anything disagrees with that, well
53:39
Speaker 1: then that's a fucking lie or that's being pushed by
53:44
Speaker 1: scammers or whatever. It's just everybody needs to take a
53:47
Speaker 1: big breath, take a deep breath and chill out and like, yeah,
53:53
Speaker 1: examine thing.
53:53
Speaker 2: And if you're questioning, well, okay, but who's researching it?
53:57
Speaker 2: Is it like a bunch of fucking right wing startups.
54:01
Speaker 2: There's one study that is being conducted jointly by the
54:05
Speaker 2: University of Minnesota, UCLA and Northwestern Yeah, and that one's
54:09
Speaker 2: also testing a diabetes drug as a possible treatment. That's
54:13
Speaker 2: how it fucking works. Sometimes drugs work for other things
54:17
Speaker 2: than what they were intended for.
54:19
Speaker 1: You know, people. I feel like people really want to
54:22
Speaker 1: figure this COVID thing out.
54:25
Speaker 3: They want to get to the bottom of this. No
54:27
Speaker 3: one's happy with COVID crazy crazy. There's a Duke University trial.
54:33
Speaker 3: There's a private company called Progena Biome which deals with
54:37
Speaker 3: like gut microbes. They're doing clinical trials.
54:41
Speaker 1: I'll link to it.
54:42
Speaker 2: There's a whole searchable database. And yes, a lot of
54:44
Speaker 2: the trials are happening in other countries. But that's kind
54:48
Speaker 2: of how the United States works, Like we're not We're
54:51
Speaker 2: not as adventurous when it comes to science.
54:53
Speaker 1: Well, I believe it or not. Other countries are also
54:56
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to deal with COVID.
55:00
Speaker 2: Shit, right, and a lot of them are doing it
55:03
Speaker 2: without the profit motive hanging over their pharmaceutical industry.
55:10
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, they're living in a country where they don't
55:13
Speaker 1: have to pay a thirty two thousand dollars medical footbeat
55:16
Speaker 1: bill for being in a hospital for four days. Not
55:18
Speaker 1: that I'm speaking from personal experience.
55:22
Speaker 2: Right, that is a uniquely American thing. Yes, that is pharmaceutical.
55:27
Speaker 2: Pharmaceutical companies are why we have Obamacare, because Obama went
55:32
Speaker 2: to them and was like, Hey, that loophole that allows
55:35
Speaker 2: you to charge like fifteen thousand dollars a pill for stuff,
55:37
Speaker 2: I'll leave that open if you help me pass Obamacare.
55:41
Speaker 2: And they got very much on board with that, and
55:44
Speaker 2: that's why Obamacare didn't do anything for prescription drug prices.
55:47
Speaker 1: And that's why it sucks.
55:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of power. So
55:52
Speaker 2: the fact that this isn't being tested as widely in
55:56
Speaker 2: the United States as it is in other countries, I
55:59
Speaker 2: don't think should really put you off that much. And
56:03
Speaker 2: it is being tested at least preliminary trials are underway.
56:08
Speaker 2: And here's the thing. This website is, I believe for
56:11
Speaker 2: people who want to fucking get in on them. So
56:14
Speaker 2: if you're in the Duke University area, I don't know, Uh,
56:17
Speaker 2: if you got COVID, go go hit the Home of
56:19
Speaker 2: the Blue Devils. See if Mike Krzyzewski can get you in.
56:22
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, man, this is rough.
56:27
Speaker 2: This whole thing is just and again like just to
56:31
Speaker 2: to to bring it full circle. People on the right
56:35
Speaker 2: believe science now, like like get you can, you can
56:39
Speaker 2: also get the fuck out of here, I mean. And
56:42
Speaker 2: the one thing that really does blow up their argument
56:45
Speaker 2: for me that oh, this is big pharma trying to
56:47
Speaker 2: suppress this again, this drug is owned by big Pharma.
56:52
Speaker 2: There is a reason Merk has a statement about it
56:54
Speaker 2: on their website and no other pharmaceutical companies do. It's
56:58
Speaker 2: because Merk owns this sh and if they can find
57:01
Speaker 2: a way to make money from it, they will just
57:04
Speaker 2: fucking give it time.
57:06
Speaker 1: Like you will.
57:07
Speaker 2: You will suckle at the teat of big Pharma eventually,
57:11
Speaker 2: just like the rest of us.
57:12
Speaker 1: Just be patient maybe, and maybe while you're being patient,
57:16
Speaker 1: like go get it vaccinated or something, you know, like
57:20
Speaker 1: the FDA approved. You know, if you're thinking about taking
57:23
Speaker 1: the drug designed for horses, then maybe you should try
57:27
Speaker 1: taking a little shot or two for that's a design
57:30
Speaker 1: for people. You know, it's sign for people to not
57:34
Speaker 1: get COVID. Yeah, Like, it's.
57:35
Speaker 2: Not like ivermectin stops horses from getting COVID.
57:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I got my vaccination and I only kind
57:44
Speaker 1: of am fucked up, and it's mostly for other reasons.
57:48
Speaker 1: So I think it's fine.
57:49
Speaker 2: What if it's like sorry to bother you and everyone
57:52
Speaker 2: who took the prescription version is a literal horse now.
57:55
Speaker 1: Right, No, maybe that might be true. That would be
57:59
Speaker 1: amazing to find out.
58:01
Speaker 2: That sometimes they put real stuff in movies. Yeah what
58:03
Speaker 2: I'm saying. Yeah, exactly what I'm saying.
58:05
Speaker 1: I mean, look, and that movie had some real stuff
58:08
Speaker 1: at it. It really just didn't know if that would
58:12
Speaker 1: be the part of it. So yeah, I think that's
58:14
Speaker 1: our episode. I think again the message of this episode
58:19
Speaker 1: is just everyone chill out, chill out, talk to your doctor,
58:22
Speaker 1: don't take a drug was to prescribe to you unless
58:25
Speaker 1: it's weed or like sisters brothers, cool out? Who's fighting
58:31
Speaker 1: and what fall? It's a gimme shelter reference.
58:36
Speaker 2: Very good documentary about the Rolling Stones Ultimate Concert. That's
58:39
Speaker 2: a Scorsese, right, isn't that the No I think he
58:43
Speaker 2: did another one.
58:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, gimme shelter, the old one. That one rules. Yeah, Yeah,
58:47
Speaker 1: you see someone get murdered. Yeah, there's some fucking crazy
58:51
Speaker 1: shit that happens to that documentary. Yeah.
58:54
Speaker 2: My favorite moment in that documentary is, uh, the Grateful Dead,
58:59
Speaker 2: which I never see say that.
59:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't like the Grateful Dead that much.
59:02
Speaker 2: But they arrived by helicopter and they land and someone
59:07
Speaker 2: comes up to Jerry Garcia and it's like someone in
59:10
Speaker 2: the audience punched the lead singer of Jefferson Airplane in
59:13
Speaker 2: the face, and Jerry Garcia goes, let's go, and they
59:17
Speaker 2: get right back in the fucking helicopter and get out
59:20
Speaker 2: of there, like he doesn't even entertain the idea of
59:23
Speaker 2: going on stage.
59:25
Speaker 1: Ah, good call. Yeah, that's also got a bunch of
59:29
Speaker 1: fucking great Ultamont shit and it like that, Like that
59:34
Speaker 1: whole Altamont thing is so fucking crazy, the free concert,
59:38
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, they put it. They put it on
59:40
Speaker 1: a hill, Yeah, on the hill, and they like just
59:43
Speaker 1: put a bunch of Hell's Angels bikers around it, like
59:46
Speaker 1: this will make it safe.
59:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hell's Angels are historically pretty cool. Meanwhile, there's a
59:52
Speaker 2: scene where one of them looks like he wants to
59:54
Speaker 2: eat Mick jaggets like he has to be pulled away
59:57
Speaker 2: from Mick Jagger.
59:58
Speaker 1: Oh, well, he's protect him anyway.
1:00:01
Speaker 2: So I think the other point of this episode is
1:00:04
Speaker 2: check out, give me show watch.
1:00:06
Speaker 1: It's what the wildest rock documentary has ever made. It's
1:00:10
Speaker 1: a classic. Uh, do we have anything to plug? Before
1:00:14
Speaker 1: we get out of here?
1:00:14
Speaker 2: By the time this goes up, there will be a
1:00:17
Speaker 2: level on the Patreon and supercast where you can subscribe
1:00:21
Speaker 2: to Pretty Scary and Conspiracy the show. As one thing,
1:00:25
Speaker 2: I guess I did not realize that subscribing to do
1:00:30
Speaker 2: two different things at one time is way too much
1:00:33
Speaker 2: for the subscription podcast system as it stands now. Hopefully
1:00:39
Speaker 2: then technology will advance to the point that we can
1:00:43
Speaker 2: do that someday.
1:00:44
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Uh, and that's all I got. What do you
1:00:46
Speaker 1: got to plug? You can find me on Twitter at
1:00:49
Speaker 1: high there Heidar sometimes a lot right now, but you know,
1:00:53
Speaker 1: I'll pop in. That's about it for me. I got
1:00:56
Speaker 1: other shit to deal with. Same. Let's get out of here.
1:01:01
Speaker 2: Olivia say goodbye, goodbye, goodbye everybody.
1:01:04
Speaker 1: We love you.