Latest / Man in America Podcast / The Heart Cure They Hid for 30 Years: Big Pharma's Worst Nightmare w/ Jack Clifford

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The Heart Cure They Hid for 30 Years: Big Pharma's Worst Nightmare w/ Jack Clifford · Man in America Podcast

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Every year, more than five hundred thousand Americans undergo open heart surgery. And heart disease is the number one killer in this country. Nearly two thousand five hundred Americans die from it every single day. And yet there's an FDA cleared Medicare covered therapy that grows new blood vessels around blocked arteries without a single incision and fewer than a 150 doctors in all of America offer it. My guest today almost became one of those five hundred thousand people.
• 0:41
  Jack Clifford is retired US Coast Guard Master Chief with twenty one years of service. He's also the author of EECP, the most underutilized therapy in medicine. While most heart patients get handed consent form for bypass surgery and told there's nothing else on the table, Jack was handed that same form with a 100% blocked widowmaker artery and he has walked out. He found the therapy that his cardiologist never even mentioned and he logged over seven hundred hours on it himself And now he's dedicated to making sure that no one else has to find out about this the hard way. So in this interview, you're gonna learn exactly what EECP is, how it works, why the medical system keeps it buried, and what you can do right now if you or someone that you love has heart disease, stroke, long COVID, or cognitive decline.
• 1:25
  This is the kind of conversation that could literally save your life or the life of someone sitting across the table from you at dinner tonight. Welcome to Man in America, a voice of reason in a world gone mad. I'm your host, Seth Holehouse. On this show, I talk to real Americans with real solutions to the real problems that we're facing today. I help you connect the dots between the problems that we see in the present and the powerful decisions made by people in the past.
• 1:50
  Because once we understand how we got here and what the real history of America actually is, we can remember where we came from. We can learn from the past and we can make real change for a better future. Now before we start, please make sure you hit that like button. It helps a lot with the algorithms on whatever platform you're tuning in from. Just helps get this information out to more people.
• 2:08
  Also, please subscribe and share this with someone who really needs to hear about it, and let me know what your thoughts are in the comments. Honestly, I love reading your comments. And remember, every Man in America show is done as a podcast as well. So if you wanna listen instead of watch, just get your favorite podcast app. If you use Apple Podcast, it will be a real favor.
• 2:24
  Just leave a review on there. Apple really prioritizes the podcast that have those reviews. So if you like the show, leave a review and it'll help me reach even more people. Alright. Let's get started now with my interview with Jack Clifford.
• 2:36
  Jack, it's great to have you on the show. It's nice to meet you, and I'm I'm really looking forward to this discussion. And I'll get into a few reasons why, but, you know, just starting off, thank you for being here.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. My pleasure, Seth. Thanks so much for having me. This is such an important topic, and you're just the perfect guy to let all these folks know about it, because I know you get it.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: And I'll let you introduce it properly. So we're gonna be talking about something called ECP, and I'll let you kinda describe what it is. But I'll start by saying that, you know, I'm not gonna say that I know everything about alternative health or medicine. I absolutely don't. However, if you put all the doctors and people that I've interviewed together, they kind of know a lot.
• 3:21
  Never come across this treatment before, which is really surprising to me, which means it's probably really suppressed. Maybe it's new. There's probably a few different reasons. But this is it's really interesting to me whenever I discovered it's like when I first discovered red light. I was like, oh my goodness.
• 3:37
  Red light therapy. This stuff is amazing. And so, anyway, I guess I'll let you tell your story because like a lot of the great stories of discoveries and and find these new things, it comes through the personal journey of kind of turning up, and looking under every rock to find the solution. And if I if I remember correctly, you've got military backgrounds. I think you've got some sort of a a discipline that I think a lot of us maybe don't have in terms of seeking out a target and finding something.
• 4:09
  So I guess, yeah, I'll hand it to you and you can walk us through however you want to.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Sounds great. I appreciate it. Thanks, Seth. So kind of the condensed version of my story, which, you know, we've got eecpbook.com is where folks can go and take a look at that if they want. I titled the book E ECP, the most underutilized therapy in medicine.
• 4:31
  And that is, I think at the heart of the matter here. Thank you. ECP, So you mentioned maybe it's new. Well, this is the furthest thing from. They're over 30 years old.
• 4:48
  It's been FDA approved since the late '90s. Even Medicare reimbursed under certain circumstances. They're pretty specific indications, but since like 2003. So ECP is old. You know?
• 5:07
  It's well established. Some of the technology is newer and some of the technology that's allowing it to maybe have another look is newer. But anyhow, I didn't know about EACP and I didn't need to know, I suppose, or that's a perspective, until five years ago. So five years ago, we had just moved to Florida and I was experiencing some chest pain. It was not a heart attack.
• 5:36
  I want to make that clear. I didn't have like a heart muscle that was dying and was at risk, but I had really severe angina. I was getting chest pain just walking at 2.2 miles an hour and it progressive. So I had started trying to run again. You mentioned a military guy, retired military guy.
• 5:55
  I've always been pretty fit, but I had sort of lost myself in the self care of my wife of thirty two years because she'd had some real serious health conditions going on. When I moved to Florida, she started feeling a lot better and then I started trying to take care of myself. So I started running again, which, know, I run a couple of marathons, couple of halves, bunch of 5Ks and 10Ks. I really enjoyed running. Got out on the beach and started to do my running stride and was like, Oh, something hurts, you know?
• 6:25
  Stop, try again next day, day or two later, same thing. And then over the next couple of months, was getting chest pain just walking, like I mentioned. So at a certain point, I went to the hospital. There was kind of an emergent reason why, I guess I'll tell the story because it's not going to make sense any other way. So my wife and I have been biohackers for a while.
• 6:46
  We like to play around. When doctors don't have the answers, that's not the end of the story. So we've learned a lot and you mentioned, you've talked to a lot of folks about a lot of things, alternative health wise, so you know there's a lot out there. And so my wife had gotten me for Christmas, this is Christmas of twenty twenty, she got me a chili pad to make your bed cold. And I was like, cool.
• 7:09
  I'm gonna sleep Oh,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I used to I used to have I don't have anyone. I used to have one of those. I had a Chili Pad. I I Yeah. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say I was like a a hardcore biohacker, but I was definitely I went through a phase of doing polyphasic sleeping.
• 7:20
  I was like, I wonder if if I can sleep two hours every twenty four hours. I tried it for a little while. It of went off the rails. But, you know, I've always been fascinated with, with that aspect of just how can I how can I maximize this human body? Right?
• 7:34
  So that's you know, but also now it's it's understanding about health. So we've got red light, we've got a a sauna, the cold plunge. You know, we we have a whole medicine cabinet of, you know, non pharmaceutical things that come from nature. And so my wife and I are similar. We're always looking for just new ways of of just improving our health, our mental clarity, etcetera.
• 7:53
  So she got you a chili pad. Right? Which is what kind of
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: You just lay it under your bed. And then in this case, it was a came with a chili blanket, so it was like double chili pad. You know? So I cranked it all the way down to 55. Was like, Lower is better.
• 8:07
  Let's go in. Let's hop in bed. I'm going to sleep so well. It's Christmas day eve. Woke up at four in the morning, acute chest pain, like out of a dead sleep, the pain woke me up and I'm thinking, this has got be a heart attack.
• 8:22
  I mean, we have all these weird descriptions, you know, it radiates down your arm, you get nausea. Like people have all these things and, you know, I don't think anybody really knows what to expect and I certainly deny that, but I was like, the level of pain, you know, if this isn't it, know, I don't know what is. Anyway, so I rushed to the hospital, but what had happened, if your coronary arteries start to get blocked with atherosclerosis and plaquing that people tend to think of as, they just call it plaques, right? You're in this supply demand mismatch potential. So if you're just sitting on the couch, you've got plenty of blood flow and your heart's gonna feel fine.
• 9:01
  If you start to go for a walk, you might have plenty of blood flow. If you start to go for a run, you might not. You know? And that's what I was experiencing. So it's all about your activities that are, you know, governing whether you're at supply demand mismatch or not.
• 9:14
  But when I was sleeping in that cold environment, my heart had to pump a lot more blood through my system just to keep me warm. And, you know, I got to supply demand mismatch in my sleep just lying there. So I never had a heart attack. It's important to this story because I got cleared. I didn't have any enzymes, I call it troponin, in my blood.
• 9:36
  My EKG normal, but they gave me a nuclear stress test in the ER and I failed that miserably. Like, it was very, very positive or negative depending on how you want to look at it. But that was a Friday, so I stayed in the hospital. And, you know, like I mentioned, we'd had all these health issues with my wife. You know, we were just like, Oh my goodness, life's just throwing one thing after another at us.
• 9:59
  But my mom had had a heart attack where she probably needed a bypass, I can't say for sure, but unfortunately that process in my mom's case kind of ruined her brain. So she came out of that surgery and she had this phenomenon called pump head, which is pretty well documented. And she just cognitively declined very quickly over the next you know, months and years to the point where unfortunately now she's in memory care. So I knew I'd, you know, bypass is serious, you know, like this is major, major, major surgery. And so I wanted to try everything I could.
• 10:40
  And I had heard about EECP, this external, enhanced external counter pulsation that we'll mention specifically in a minute. And it was just in looking into resources from my mom, like if I was like, what if it happens again? I had heard this podcast that was like an hour long and they mentioned ECP for like sixty seconds. And I was like, okay, noted. I didn't really know what it was or how it worked.
• 11:04
  I just knew the closest place to my mom was over two hours away and she had to get there 35 times in seven weeks and I couldn't talk her into doing that. I can't entirely blame her. That's basically every day, her entire day for seven weeks. And then it's expensive and, you know, Medicare wouldn't have covered it in her circumstances.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: And so what just to to kinda make sure I'm following. So when you went in, if I remember correctly, you had a a 100% blockage of, I think, what's called the widowmaker artery. Right? Like, was the and so normally, they would have done a bypass where put some my dad had two different heart surgeries. He had some stents put on earlier, but then later, this is, like, in 2015, around Christmas time, he had to have he had to have open heart surgery, and he had five bypasses.
• 11:54
  And, like, it was pretty significant. I remember, like, the the doctor is saying, it's like, this your dad's kind of, like, he's competitive, and he's at the top of the rank in terms of, like Wow. How bad things were. Right? Winning.
• 12:08
  Yeah. And so and so we you know, you had heard this thing called e you know, ECP. And because you're a a biohacker, I'm assuming you didn't just go just rush off to get on some, you know, some blood thinners and go, hey. Let's go see what, you know, the doctor's gonna do, and let's go go and cut myself open and start stitching things up. Right?
• 12:26
  You you're kind of looking for different technologies to help you. Is that correct?
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: No, absolutely. My thinking at the time was they're treating it like an emergency. I've got this giant patch of nitro paste on me. I'm sitting in a hospital bed. I got things beeping all over and yet I felt fine at that point.
• 12:45
  You know? I didn't feel I mean, I didn't feel great, but I wasn't in distress. It wasn't like an emergency thing going on, yet they were kind of treating it like it was emergency. And my thinking was, hey, you know, as I looked into this a little bit more, I don't have any heart muscle that's actively dying right now that you have to cut me open and revascularize, So I got a little bit of time to think through it. And yeah, indeed mine, I was triple blocked.
• 13:13
  So my LAD, my widowmaker artery is a 100%. My left is 95 and my right was 80. I mean, it is now to this day, like nothing's changed about those blockages. It's just, I can run a sub seven mile now. You know?
• 13:26
  Like, that's that shouldn't be possible in 52. You know? That's shaped
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: my And entire So caused Do you know the blockage? Because it sounds like you've led a healthy life. I mean, you're you look like you're not, you know, a guy that puts down four McDonald's Big Macs for dinner. I mean, you're you're running. So, I mean, do do you know what caused that that buildup and that blockage?
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: I've given that a lot of consideration. Genetics for sure. My grandfather died of a heart attack in his seventies and he'd had heart attacks in his sixties. My mom, like I mentioned, and she was in her mid sixties. I was 47, so that was kind of early, but you kind of get a little esoteric.
• 14:11
  I think it's stress. I think I absorbed a lot of stress over the years and I accelerated it, but I have those genetic markers. One of them is called lipoprotein little a, Mine was really high, and there are some other, you know, lipid panel markers that would say, you know, yeah, you're probably at risk. But again, 40 pretty, pretty early.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Well, something that is interesting with the kind of Chinese medical perspectives is they tied certain emotions to certain organs. And they can even say that if you're someone that, has a lot of I think anger is tied to the liver. And so someone that has anger issues, excessive anger issues, oftentimes having has an inflamed liver or liver issues. And so Right. Maybe, you know, it's something to do with, obviously, you know, you were caring for your wife, which Yeah.
• 14:59
  I've, you know, I I went through the process of, you know, caring for my brother for eighteen months as he was kind of, you know, kind of dying to cancer. Right? And it's like everything else just stops. Right? Everything else, even your own health, your own sleep schedule, your own nutrition, just doesn't really matter anymore.
• 15:15
  And so maybe
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: I don't care.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe that was part of it. Maybe the heart had to do something with with just your heart was broken during that time.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I I absolutely believe that could be the case. It certainly felt that way at various points.
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• 17:52
  Speaker 2: So however, you know, that happened, here I am, you know, five years ago and I've got my mom's situation top of mind, and I have some common sense and some experience with biohacking. We got a lot of wins with my wife, but it didn't come easy. She had this really bad autoimmune disease that has an off label cure that no one tells you about. It's a really, really simple medication and that they'd rather give you chemo drugs. She had lymphoma, non Hodgkin's like your brother, and we found an off label treatment for that that worked amazingly well and is non toxic.
• 18:37
  And then she had a traumatic brain injury, which was sort of like the mother of all complicated things to try and figure out because it's the brain, so it's so complicated. However
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Sorry to, you know, I don't want to keep interrupting you, but it's just, it's like my brother, so he had the same thing. It was, he had non Hodgkin's lymphoma followed up by traumatic brain injury. So, like, what happened with him is he was feeling sick He for quite some went to the ER one time, he's having a hard, you know, kind of fluid in his lungs feeling. They drained three liters of fluid from his chest cavity. The reason the fluid was there is because he had a large tumor that was sitting right on top of his heart and his left lung.
• 19:15
  And so, as soon as they drained that fluid, that tumor then collapsed, his heart stopped and his left lung collapsed. And so, he basically, before it took about thirty minutes to get him hooked up to an ECMO machine, which is like an external heart machine. And so, he had the equivalent of like a thirty minute stroke, and the doctors said that he would never wake up. I mean, was and he did. Mean, after nine months we got him out of the hospital, and ended up that the tumor came back.
• 19:40
  I think he died of a heart attack, kind of sudden heart attack after eighteen months of it. But, he had really, really, intense neurological issues. He had myoclonus and had a lot of just neurological problems. To mention just that it took him probably eight months to reach the kind of mental capacity of maybe a five year old. Right?
• 20:01
  It just took so much time to bring him back from such. So, anyway, I I guess your story's kind of hitting close to home with me.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm sorry you had to go that. I'm sorry he had to go through that too. I know particularly how challenging those moments are and from the caregiver's perspective as well, you know? Yeah.
• 20:22
  So it was kind of just like, you know, let me check myself out of the hospital. You guys are probably not going to like it. You know, I did my due diligence with a second opinion from cardiologists that worked there. And then I told the doc on Sunday, so this is Friday. I got in there.
• 20:37
  Sunday, I'm like, I'm leaving and you know? But I'm new here. You know? I don't have any heart issues before this, so I didn't need a cardiologist. Can I come see you next week?
• 20:44
  And he says If you live that long, and then he just walks out of the room. And yeah, now I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, Okay, this is real now. I mean, am I really doing this? You know, like, I'm just second guessing myself in that moment, but, you know, so I get out and I feel like absolute crap. And at this point it's in your head too, because now you're just like, if you feel anything, you're like, Oh, oh, you know, the placebo effect is sort of in full force on your own psychology.
• 21:23
  And I felt bad. I mean, I started, I fasted, did a water fast for three days, that's the first thing I did. And then I tried to look into these chelation things that pull heavy metals out of your body and supposedly they're good. I'm not even supposedly, I'm quite certain there's benefit to them. It's just that wasn't accessible for me and I don't think it would work fast enough and don't even think, my heart was very sick.
• 21:50
  These are all unstentable lesions, so it's not like there was just one blockage, it was diffuse throughout the entire vessel. There was nothing too stent. So, but the real challenge then becomes like, okay, I'm like, well, ECP makes the most sense. I at least need to try that. Let me get thirty five hours, which is the standard protocol that is very well researched.
• 22:10
  And ECP, you know, surprisingly, it's like probably, if not the most, one of the most well researched medical devices on the planet. When you really start looking into it, you're like, woah, this is good science. Like, even if a lay person starts looking into it, you're like, woah, these are good journals. These are good studies. Anyhow, so, you know, that was priority number one, but I couldn't find any anywhere.
• 22:34
  And I live in Florida, not that rural of an area. And I was like, you know, it was the Wild West show of trying to find, you know, you Google ECP near me, or where can I get ECP or whatever? Then these listings would come back, but none of them were accurate. You'd call and they're like, oh no, we don't do this, or we did this twenty years ago, or, and worst of all, the folks that would have it, they'd be like, well, no, we only do that after basically you're on your deathbed. So after we've scented you however many times and we bypassed you and we have nothing else to offer you, then we'll let you do AECP.
• 23:09
  And just intuitively, makes no sense. This is the non invasive option. Why would you not, if it has a benefit, why would you not try that first when it makes sense to? And, you know, the making sense part to me is just, do you have heart muscle at risk? You know, if your heart muscle is actively dying because you've, you know, a clot has burst, you know, that's another story.
• 23:28
  But, yeah.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Walk us through what is EECP? I've got a few pictures that I've that can pull up as you're describing it. But yeah. So what what is EECP?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: So it's it's like the simplest thing in the world. You just lie on a bed, really comfortable. I mean, the bed can be whatever level comfortable, you know, the bed is, but, you know, it's not uncomfortable to lie down. And they put, yeah, like you shown in the picture there, they put these cuffs on your calves, your thighs, and your hips. So there's actually, you know, six contact points on the body, three on each side.
• 24:07
  And then they put an EKG on you with just three leads. It's a real simple EKG, and then that machine just inflates with air in between the heartbeats. And so, the machine uses the EKG to find out when your heart's beating and your heart, interestingly enough, doesn't get its own blood flow when contracting, right? Because it's contracting. So like the squeeze in your heart is preventing it from filling itself.
• 24:38
  But when it relaxes, in between heartbeats is when the blood can flow to actually feed the heart muscle. So that's the moment when the machine compresses and it does it sequentially. So it it's it's just nanoseconds, but it starts in your calves and then your thighs and then your hips in this sequential nature.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: So basically, if I understand correctly, okay, so when your heart pumps, right, it pumps to squeeze the blood and push the blood out through the veins, arteries, etcetera. So then you're saying that when it pumps, it also, a lot of the blood's leaving the heart, right? Which makes sense, as it's kind of, it's tightening up, There's less room in there, so then it relaxes in between your heartbeats. What this machine does is it's almost like if you imagine someone is very quickly, like, they they squeeze your calf and they squeeze your thigh, and they kind of like, in between that pump, they're squeezing all the blood back to So your is it kind of in the same way that people do, oxygen therapy, where they're enhancing the amount of oxygen going into their blood, into their brain, this is kind of, similar where it's kind of revitalizing the heart.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Doing a lot of things at once, but certainly the most well studied and kind of intuitive like you were explaining is it's sending that blood back to the heart. So it's like reducing what they call afterload and it's increasing preload and it's making your heart have to work less hard just to supply your entire body for that hour when you're on the machine. It also sort of like, they use this thing called a plethometer. You stick your finger in this little, you know, I don't know. It's like a pulse ox and it measures the waveform of your heart, of the blood your heart is pumping into your finger.
• 26:32
  And so, you know, it does it in a display like this. And then when the machine compresses, you'll see the machine's heartbeat. So you'll see your heartbeat and you know, you'll see basically two heartbeats, two for one.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: You know? So you have, like, kind of, like so that waveform is showing the blood moving through your finger, which is obviously it's it's a good measurement of as an extremity. And so you're saying that you'll see heartbeat bump, but then heartbeat and then machine squeeze, heartbeat, machine squeeze, heartbeat.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: So it's like, you're almost like you're doubling your blood flow in essence.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yep. And it all of that is, you know, really well studied. That phenomenon is called diastolic augmentation, or they compare the two waves and they have a ratio that then says, this is how much diastolic augmentation you're getting. So diastolic is, know, meaning when the heart's at rest, you know, how much are basically, you're comparing is the machine providing more blood flow to your finger than your heart is.
• 27:30
  Like, that's the goal. Want it to be one to one or higher. And why is that? And it's just a measure. It's, you know, it's metric of the machine's performance and effect on your body, but it's all about, really all about sheer stress in your entire vasculature because, you know, we have what, 60,000 miles of blood vessels in our body and they're all lined with this thing called endothelium.
• 27:56
  It's a one cell layer thick lining in the inside of your blood vessels that really functions more like a muscle than anything else. And it makes a lot of chemical, you know, it produces a lot of chemicals that are released into your system. The most important one is called nitric oxide, and that's what allows your vessels to increase and retract when needed. You know, so if you're going for a run or you're lifting weights or, you know, there's more demand signals. Yeah.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Which I used to take that when I was younger when you work out. I used take this stuff called, like, No Explode, think. Was nitric oxide, dude. It'd make you you'd work out and you'd have this huge pump.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: It's like your
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: body's got all swelled up, And when I was back in my college days. Right? Okay.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: So, so but but the the the phenomenon of the exercise itself in the endothelium is called shear stress. And that's when the blood is being, you know, forced through these areas that haven't had that much blood go through them any time in the recent past. And so they're learning, you know, woah, I got to get bigger. It's just, you know, they're working out like a muscle, You know? And they it I don't they don't get bigger, but they get better at making nitric oxide.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay. Yeah. So is it so I'm trying to think through this. It's like I'm trying to think, okay. How can doing this thing, obviously, like, you could see how it would provide a more, immediate relief, right?
• 29:23
  You know, instant increase blood flow, etcetera. But I'm thinking, Okay, well, how does this then kind of correct long term? Then you just hit it, right? Is that it's kind of like because I I work out three times a week. Right?
• 29:36
  And and you you know, it's like, okay, you you do your bench press, you know, every time you do your bench press, you kind of increase your load, your body responds, you kind of tear your muscle fibers, they rebuild stronger to and you progressive loading. And so is this kinda the same thing? It's almost like you're just working out your entire cardiovascular system.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: All at once. And, you know, that you mentioned, you know, muscle tearing, you know, healing. But the inverse is true. If you stop going to the gym for a couple of weeks, when you pick up where you left off, you might not be able to do what you could do before. So that's just being sedentary, right?
• 30:15
  So EACP, yeah, it's doing that and it's doing it systemically, right? Just like exercise. You're just lying on a bed very comfortably. The differences between EACP and exercise, there's probably a lot of them, I'm gonna mention two that I think are really important. One, the level of sheer stress that the machine puts your vascular, your endothelium through, you can't replicate it another way.
• 30:41
  And so like a lot of people will go, oh, those are like the NormaTec compression pants. And, yeah, those are good. And there's some similarities, but, you know, the the pressure that we're talking about one and the timing that we're talking about two make it something that is really an entirely different class of things. And secondly, if you're going for a run and your heart's beating and you're just going from systole when it's contracting to diastolic, when it's relaxing and it's pumping faster and faster, if you want to, you can kind of think about it this way. The blood is all flowing in one direction, right?
• 31:16
  You know, through your system, right? Well, when you hop on an ECP machine, it's like pushing upstream, right?
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's like having a heart in your ankles or something, right?
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And it's pushing against the flow. So that makes the added shear stress, like I said, just say, know, whole other level of impact on the body. And the body responds, you know, it releases hematopoietic stem cells. So these are stem cells that can become anything in the blood cell line to include immune cells.
• 31:49
  It releases this factor called vaso vascular endothelial growth factor or VEGF, which is a stimulus for these little branches, to start growing and getting bigger. So we all have this thing called collaterals throughout our vascular system. These are kind of dormant channels that don't get used, and they just sort of wither in. They're, you know, still theoretically there, but they, you know, they don't open. Right?
• 32:16
  They need a lot of reasons to open. And so, you know, ECP for sure opens up all your collaterals, but but let me show you something real quick here. I like doing this. So okay. So you can you can see this this gnarly little temple artery here.
• 32:33
  Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I got one on the other side. So so I grew those.
• 32:40
  Interesting. And they they feed my brain. You know, ACP is amazing. Thirty five hours is a standard protocol. I bought my own machine, and I have over seven hundred hours and the benefits just keep getting better and better.
• 32:55
  One of them is I went from eating eight to nine hours of sleep at night to only needing four, and I get the same quality sleep because I track it on my ordering like I always have. Right? I just get it really fast, you know, much less time. Because I believe I'm not saying that these are literally feeding my brain because I don't know that they're connected to my, you know, but it's a nice proxy because you can say, yeah, he did something. Right?
• 33:18
  And it's a proxy for all this other stuff you can't see, but, you know, I clearly have a lot of vasculature if I have that or you need see my arm pain, but I'm a vanity dude. Anyways, you know, my brain seems to clean itself really fast. You know, that cleansing you do at night when you're sleeping, I just don't, you know, I don't need as much time to do it as I used to, and that was, you know, consistent. I needed eight to nine hours of sleep. I always was kind of a little groggy and, you know, pulling myself out.
• 33:44
  Now my body wakes up on its own, you know, two, three in the morning, and I'm like full of energy ready to go. It's been that way
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: for Interesting. And so, basically what you're doing is, in essence, you're just, you're training your cardiovascular system through this. And so your cardiovascular system is responding by, I'm sure it's building larger, you know, kind of by expanding your veins, expanding your blood flow, probably even producing the amount of blood you have in your body. Yeah. For sure.
• 34:15
  Think so.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: I think Right?
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: And so, now, you know, you mentioned that you still have those blockages, but is it is it almost because I guess it makes sense that it's not gonna clear out, you know, kind of, arterial plaque or whatever you refer to that as. Right? Is it just that the your heart as a whole and everything has just become so healthy and strong that it just those blockages almost become a Well non
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: documented that it that it it grows these it it it opens these collaterals, and then it grows more. Right? So I I've I I believe I have in volume, you know, way more than I need compared to what was blocked in terms of pipes, if you will, throughout my heart, getting blood flow, whatever it needs. They're a lot smaller. There's not these giant arteries that are blocked up, but in volume.
• 35:09
  You know, I've got a lot of little ones that I've grown. And, you know, how else could that be true? I can run a sub seven mile right now, and I'm I'm a 100% blocked in one, you know, I'm almost completely blocked in three vessels and yet I can run a sub seven mile. So like, those two are completely inconsistent with each other. I've had no heart meds, I've had no stents, no
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: other- You have no longer have any pain, no chest pain?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: It's I can't really get into chest pain. I mean, I could, you know, I I could try to destroy myself and maybe, but I mean, I think anybody could do that. You know, I I now I can even, like, eat a meal and go for a run and I'm still, you know, like, when all the blood flow is going to my stomach, and there's a lot less in in my heart to begin with, and I'm still, like I might I might throw up, but but, digest my meds.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: And so, are there are a lot of the the studies in the research I mean, this sounds like it's and again, you look at the mainstream way of treating common problems, heart disease, cancer, you know, diabetes, etcetera, you know, these are these are big industries. Chemotherapy, you know, my brother's medical bills over a million dollars, right, for his stay at the hospital. Now, lot of it was emergency stuff, ICU stays, etc, but still, I mean, was, you know, chemotherapies easily gets into the 6 figures, right, if you're getting into that. And so it's, this kind of technology, like, not only have I not heard about it in the alternative health community, never have have you ever have ever anything mentioned, you know, with, you know, sitting with my dad when he was meeting with cardiologist, you know, years ago. It's just it didn't it didn't exist.
• 36:50
  Right? They were all for it's kinda like, like, the birth industry. They'd love to give you a c section. That's 70 that's $70,000, $100,000. Oh, your baby's too big.
• 36:59
  I mean, I have so many friends. I hear these stories, and they they say, oh, I had a c section. Like, why? They said, oh, my baby's gonna be too big. Like, well, how big was your baby?
• 37:06
  It was eight pounds. Yeah. Like, oh.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. My wife was a labor delivery nurse, so she can she can attest to that.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We've had two kids It's
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: more about it's more about it's more about when when they're the the the the doctor's, son's soccer game is than
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. She'll straight up tell you she's seen it countless times. Yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: And so have have they done a lot of studies on this, and is there, like is your case just very common that this is something that that's has been
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: What's, yeah, What's uncommon is is that I got my own machine and that I kept using. So that's that's unique to me. I I haven't been able to find anybody that's that's I mean, there's a few other, you know, lay people that own their own machines. That's not completely unusual. It's rare.
• 37:52
  But I haven't been able to find anybody that's got my number of hours on a machine. I think I'm in a pretty unique territory. But ECP, it's FDA approved indications. This is where it gets kind of interesting. It's FDA approved indications are for angina and heart failure.
• 38:12
  And most recently, and this is fairly new, just starting in 2015, and just for general circulation in VO2 increase. So, if you think about VO2 max, what your oxygen utilization is in your body, it increases that. So, that's FDA approved for that. In Europe, it's approved to treat dementia and mild cognitive impairment. And like I mentioned, I think we were off air when I mentioned it, but the study that that's based on was not just slow it down, it was reverse it.
• 38:47
  And it's under serious consideration to be approved in The United States by the FDA for that same indication. But it's well studied for long COVID, like eighty percent success rate. Well studied for kidney disease, could easily keep somebody off of dialysis if they're heading in that direction. Well studied for erectile dysfunction. And I love to talk about it.
• 39:10
  I won't go crazy here talking about that side of things. But if you think about how ECP works and how we've described it, it works from the inside out. Right? Most things that are treating erectile dysfunction are doing it from the outside and they don't work all that well. It's studied in Parkinson's.
• 39:28
  I don't think it's conclusive, but benefit for sure. And the list kind of goes on and on. So in reality, it's optimizing blood flow to your body systemically. So what is a disease process? Well, a lot of them, perhaps even all of them to varying degrees, are a lack of blood flow.
• 39:55
  Yeah.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: And oxytin, which is a Yeah. Product of that,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: more importantly, what the blood delivers to the cells, right?
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's what's actually doing the work, but, you know, you got to get it there. Anyhow, so, but this technology, you know, is old, But there's, like I mentioned, there's some, you know, some newer portable technology that's that's come along that's now making this a lot more accessible for folks.
• 40:25
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• 42:01
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, my goal is to make sure that this is really an option for anyone that wants to try it. But because you need so many hours and they have to be so close together, you know, your access points really got to be pretty close to your house. I believe thirty minutes is about the longest that you can really expect somebody to drive to get to ACP treatment that many times in a row. So, in a one to hurt. There's an access crisis.
• 42:26
  We have 150 access points in The US, And there are there are entire states that don't even have a single provider. China has over 5,000. Why is that? This is was interestingly developed as a joint technology with The United States and Chinese scientists. Interesting.
• 42:45
  China took it back in the eighties and and and innovated on it. And, you know, they have a different a different medical model, you know, where where they're not getting paid by procedures. It's much more about outcomes. And so it's standard of care in all of their cardiac things, You'll get offered ECP, most places in China, before you'd get offered a stent or a bypass. In The United States, I'm going to say this here, you cannot make doctor money offering ECP.
• 43:18
  You can't do it. There's not enough money. Medicare pays about $115 an hour. If I'm going to tie it, if I'm a physician and I have a patient room, I'm going to tie it up 35 times for an hour and staff it with a tech, And and I'm not gonna make doctor money. I mean, if, you know, if I can afford to do that, then I'm probably you know, if I'm doing it, I'm probably doing it out of kindness of my own heart.
• 43:38
  There's not a lot of doctors that are doing that. But you can lose doctor money offering EACP. Because if if you needed a stent, Seth, if I offer GECP, there's a good chance you're not gonna need it. And it might not even the first one. It might be the the next three that I've already lined up to to pay for my this or that.
• 43:56
  Right? But I can make $10 on in two hours on that stent. I can make maybe $5, and then I got all the associated costs offering me ECP 35 times. That the math on that's pretty simple. But you can make plumber money.
• 44:12
  You can make electrician money offering ECP. And I'm challenging folks that wanna be entrepreneurial out here because I've got business models to solve all of this, you know, and and I make myself very easy to get ahold of because I wanna talk to folks. This is my favorite subject in entire world. You you gotta shut me up more times than not. So I wanna talk to folks that are interested in offering this in their communities, and let's figure out how to connect them with the resources.
• 44:38
  If they wanna experience it for themselves first, which I think is the best way to do it, but, you know, once you're you're hooked, because you're gonna be. You know? Like, everybody has a good experience practically. It's it's it's just that great. But
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because I'm I'm already kind of I'm kind of thinking about this. And a quick question that I want to bring in a different kind of topic here, kind of tie into it, is so obviously if this can reverse dementia, you're saying that you need less sleep, you wake up with less brain fog. Have you noticed any other kind of aspects of just changes in your mental clarity or anything just throughout the day?
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, my word. It's it's really dramatic, and some of it's even hard to describe. I do not recognize myself from five years ago. Really? I cannot relate to that person.
• 45:28
  I feel like I've been reborn and it's a familiarity with myself because so much has changed inside. I developed something called an inner observer. So I I I don't know how what other people's experience of being alive is like. I I just wanna say what mine is. Right?
• 45:45
  But but old me didn't didn't have an ability to sort of feel things and then also separately observe the feeling of them. And yet I do that all day every day now. And it's really nice because I'm not caught up in my, you know, in my experiences, you know, if something's, if I'm in pain, you know, I can be in pain and I can see myself being in pain and go, okay, well, that's what you're experiencing in this moment. And I learned breath work and breath work is amazing and I love it. And it's reflex ive for me now.
• 46:21
  So when I'm stressed out, my body automatically starts breathing better. Well, how did I do that? On the ECP machine, one day I accidentally like breathe a certain way and I dropped my heart rate like 30 points. I was like, woah, wait a second, how did I do that? Then I started playing with it.
• 46:37
  Because I got the EKG right there. It's got the real time data, the machine's pulsing. And so, it's got a rhythm to the pulse. And then if you change your heart rate, the machine goes to a different pulse and it's super fascinating. So I just started playing with him like, woah, this is so cool.
• 46:52
  So that sort of transitioned into like this amazing breath work, you know, and it also really strengthens your core because these impulses that are mostly delivered through your hips, you know, you jerk your hips and your body has to react to it. You know, it kind of strengthens all this area too. So you kind of naturally become a diaphragmatic breather. And and this is these are hours and hours, and 35 is probably not enough to get to some of this stuff. But but, like, if you could, why not have a machine as a part of your your morning routine?
• 47:26
  You know?
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, exactly. I mean, and so now is it something that you can only access if you're a doctor? I mean, or is it something like a sauna or a red light that that you can
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Let's break that down. Let's break that down. So it's a class two medical device, you know, according to the FDA, that it has some restrictions, but its indications are really what's important because it's a little bit about how you look at it. So in 2015, we got that healthy person indication, I like to call it, but it specifically says, you know, ECP is approved for general circulation in healthy people. The FDA doesn't define a healthy person, your doctor does.
• 48:11
  And, you know, a healthy person is is much more like, you know, when I wanted to go play football or soccer, I need a sports physical as a kid. You know? And my physician's like, yeah. You know? That that seems okay for you.
• 48:20
  It's it's like that. You know? So your your physician's just reviewing the contraindications. We've got on eecplocator.com, where we've got our education and access site. We're going to be presenting some really good in-depth training so providers can get familiar with this and also technicians that are offering it can get familiar with it.
• 48:42
  But there are some contraindications and you need to make sure you've thought through those and work with your physician to make sure you don't have any that might cause an issue. But I've got the safety data up there. It's right there where it says, find the ECP treatment near you. It says, zero adverse events across a thirty year safety record. So you can click on that, and you see, like, ECP has never hurt anybody in thirty years, according to the FDA.
• 49:11
  We've had two documents of, like, bruising, and that's it. So, you know, it's it's just not a lot of risk there. Yeah. So don't wanna I don't wanna get cavalier about that. Go ahead, Seth.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Sorry. I was to say because so there's a a really good friend of mine. So he lives in, Milford, Pennsylvania, right, which is a a beautiful historic town in Pennsylvania. And so he has a wellness spa. This it's actually I'll pull it up.
• 49:38
  It's called the Health House.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's perfect.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: It's Right? It's it's his beautiful Victorian home. Like, he he redid the did the whole interior. Really intimate. He's and my wife and I go there relatively often.
• 49:50
  He's got, you know, red light therapy. He's got Tesla coil. He's got oxygen stuff. There's just there's a what's that?
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: It's an ECP machine. Yep.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so I'm thinking now he's not a doctor. Right? He has a doctor. He has a naturopathic doctor, I think, that kind of consults and and does stuff there.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Nice to
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: So can someone like, would he be able because I'm thinking the next thing I do is gonna call him and say, hey. You know, Liam, you gotta get one of these machines.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Because- You should ask him to reach out to me because I'm working with all the manufacturers, right? And I'll get him the best possible price.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: And, you know, we'll also train him on, you know, what, you know, how to offer the therapy. And then, he needs to work with folks that have been cleared by their physicians. He just needs to only He should never be treating angina or erectile dysfunction for that matter, right? Even though erectile dysfunction is off label and angina is on label. He should always be treating folks for their general circulation.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: Okay. Okay.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: The FDA says we can do that. It's it's indicated. So there's no problems. It's just it's just he's he's gotta make sure that that they've been medically cleared for that activity so that they are indeed, you know, a healthy person in this.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay. Well, that's good. And I'll give up it's a quick plug for anybody that is in Pennsylvania or New York or, you know, in you know, where Milford is. You should check this place out. It's a beautiful, beautiful place.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, nice.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah. It's it's so nice. Like, he did with the interior of it. It's just this beautiful Victorian
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: buildings like that. Oh, they just speak to me. Yeah.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you can just see it's, you guys free walk throughs. Anyway, but, yeah, I'm gonna talk to him about this.
• 51:35
  And so, you know, with with these with these machines, I'm assuming, obviously, if you're running, a health spa, you would have perhaps maybe a different version than at home. And Yeah. Yeah. But what do I mean, if someone wants to get one of these, like, for at home use, what's that process look like? I mean, they they don't they don't look like they're inexpensive.
• 51:57
  I mean, I'm I'm assuming that
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: they're No. They're not. It's we're we're talking, you know, a a nice used car type price range, generally speaking.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: So, like, $15,000 range?
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: 15 Little little higher, but not not too much higher. Yeah. You know, not crazy. I mean, you can spend $70.80, 90,000, but you don't have to. And and the better machines, there's there isn't really a marketplace for ECP.
• 52:22
  Like, there there's just it's not common enough right now for there to be an established marketplace. The price points are all right. I'm trying to, you know, really kind of bring some order to this in a certain way, even what, even what providers charge, there isn't really a marketplace. It's just all over the place. Know, you did 30 cars in one place, they might charge you 11,000.
• 52:40
  You do it somewhere else, they might charge you, you know, 5. I I've got a a a stay and retreat in in Asheville, North Carolina. I let people come and stay at this this property I have that's kinda like your friends a little bit. With lodging, they can get through 35 sessions in eighteen days just paying 4,500. Not a month, 4,500 total.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, so $4,500 total, which is like a lot of health, like, know, kind of stay in health retreats, you're looking at $1,020,000 plus per week. I mean,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: it's Yeah. I just wanted to get to the people, you know? I mean, don't, no one's going to get rich doing ECP. Yeah. And this isn't about any one person, this is about everybody and about having this therapy that complements anything else you want to do.
• 53:33
  And if you're faced with a tough medical decision or you're listening to your body and you think something might be common if you don't make some changes, I'd give ECP a real, real opportunity to see what it can do for you because the alternative is, mean, hell, just look at it economically. What are co pays right now? What are catastrophic caps? Know, most people, even if they do get a stent or a bypass, part of the responsibility for that is probably more than the ECP would cost.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Not to mention missed work and all that kind of stuff that comes with it. Absolutely.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: But we got to get this to the people because, you know, if I got to drive three hours and stay in a hotel, which was my experience, the only place I could find, Most people don't have those kind of, you know, a job that would let them do that or the resources to do that. And it was still really hard on me. And, you know, I just I don't I don't want that for people. I want it to be easy because it should be. Yeah.
• 54:32
  We've got port technology now. The price points we're talking about are for the portable technology. Right? You know, you could if you're in, you know, in the $30,000 price range, you know, depending on the swing, you're gonna be in the ballpark ish of what what you'd have to spend to get a portable machine. But I'll tell you what too, and I know that's a lot of money.
• 54:51
  I I don't ever wanna pretend like it isn't, but I would drive the crappiest car in the world, Seth, before I would be without my ECP machine. My biggest fear for the longest time was that it would break and I couldn't replace it. You know? And my wife's benefited from it too, and it's just you know, it's been so amazing. Now we have some backups, you know, because we're offering it to other people.
• 55:10
  So I'm not so Fahrenheit anymore. But yeah.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This is this is great. I mean, is, you know, it's it's I wanna figure out how I can get access. That's part of my own selfish reason for being like, hey, buddy. Hey, Liam.
• 55:24
  You should get one of these at your health spa because, you know, it's it's he's less than half an hour away. And he he owns he owns a little coffee shop there too. We go there all the time for, you know, this little cute little coffee shop called the
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Better Life. If you go to the Look at your site, you'll see there's not a lot of access points. He he probably wouldn't have any competition. So
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So so, Jack, in in wrapping up, I wanna, so you have a website for your book, which is eecpbook.com. Right? So this is your book. And this is just like the the book that's kind of was our discussion today, just a little kind of snapshot of what the book is, your story, and the process, and everything?
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Okay. So we've got the EECP book, and then, I think most importantly, you have the website, right? Eecplocator.com. And you mentioned this start here button at the very top, right? You have a little star.
• 56:16
  And this is so what are we looking at here?
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: So here's just, you know, am I a researcher trying to learn about this from that perspective? Am I a patient? Do I want to offer it to other people? It just sort of asks you questions if you go scroll down and it'll get you to the links within the locator site that are appropriate for what you're looking for.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay. Okay.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Or you might, like we got those off label conditions, I'm exploring for specific conditions. So, I break all the studies down about why it might work for cognitive issues, blood pressure.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, great. Well, Jack, thank you for giving us your time today. I I found this to be fascinating. I love these opportunities to learn something like this, I'm already thinking, yeah, this makes a lot of sense.
• 57:10
  And so yeah. I mean, know you've you've had a tough journey, but oftentimes, it's the tough journey that forges the it's it's the pressure that forms a diamond. Right? And so
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: I I wouldn't take it back for the world. I'm so happy I'm here now and and haven't lived the life I I live. A lot a lot of the good is because of the ACP, and now it's time to spread the words.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is great. Well, Jack, it's a great meeting you, and thanks again. Really appreciate it.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Seth. I really appreciate being here.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you.