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Mournful Creatures: How Animals Grieve and Mourn the Dead · Wildly Curious

0:43
Laura: Hello and welcome to For the Love of Nature, a podcast where we tell you everything you need to know about nature and probably more than you wanted to know.
0:50
Laura: I'm Laura.
0:51
Katy: And I'm Katie, and today we're going to be talking about how humans are not the only creatures that have developed rituals surrounding death.
1:00
Laura: Rituals surrounding
1:01
Katy: death.
1:02
Katy: Death.
1:03
Katy: Just the death.
1:04
Katy: Happy Halloween.
1:06
Katy: Yeah.
1:08
Katy: I'm just going to be eating candy.
1:10
Katy: I,
1:10
Laura: I, tell me about it.
1:11
Laura: I bought like a giant bag of candy from Costco, specifically said this is for the children, and half of it's gone because Justin's just eating it all.
1:21
Laura: He was like, I guess I ate some of it.
1:22
Laura: I was like, some of it?
1:24
Laura: Some of it.
1:26
Katy: Half the bag.
1:28
Katy: It is
1:28
Laura: tempting.
1:29
Laura: I can't wait to take her trick or treating tomorrow because she'll be more cognitive about it than last year.
1:33
Laura: Last year we didn't go anywhere.
1:34
Laura: We just sat there and gave out candy.
1:37
Laura: This year we're going.
1:38
Laura: Only for like half an hour, but I know she's gonna be stoked.
1:41
Laura: She's already started, like, practicing trick or treat.
1:44
Laura: That's funny.
1:45
Laura: And then I just want to eat her candy, so.
1:49
Laura: So I'm excited too! So I'm really, our neighbors were pointing out the places where you can get full size candy bars, and I was like, yes!
1:56
Katy: Sweet neighbors.
1:57
Katy: Um, what is, what is Laura gonna be this year?
2:00
Katy: I think just a cat.
2:02
Katy: She was a cat
2:03
Laura: last year.
2:03
Laura: She's your kid.
2:04
Laura: At Tobias.
2:04
Laura: Bye.
2:07
Laura: She didn't have a choice.
2:08
Laura: This year, I think even if I gave her a choice, it would be that.
2:11
Laura: Because she constantly is wearing a cat tail anyway.
2:13
Laura: Like, I got a tail for work because I was a skunk.
2:16
Laura: But it looks like a cat's tail.
2:18
Laura: So she's just been asking to wear it.
2:19
Laura: She wears it outside, like, regularly.
2:22
Laura: Dresses like a cat.
2:23
Laura: And we act like cats almost every day.
2:27
Laura: This sounds right for your kid.
2:28
Laura: She pulls my tail.
2:31
Laura: She pulls my tail and then I hiss at her and she just thinks it's the best thing ever.
2:38
Katy: That's funny.
2:39
Katy: Luke and I are going to has big foot.
2:41
Katy: I tell you that.
2:42
Laura: No, that's so great.
2:43
Katy: Yeah.
2:44
Katy: Luke and I are both going to be big foot, which is amazing.
2:46
Katy: Matching big foot.
2:50
Katy: Yeah.
2:51
Katy: My ex husband, he's coming with us too, though.
2:52
Katy: Just cause I was like, I need somebody to see like, cause we're just going to be like two big foots cause it's full masks.
2:59
Katy: And so it's kind of like hard to tell.
3:00
Katy: And I was like, man, and I don't want anybody like, Like, cause you can't see.
3:05
Katy: Like, it's a mask.
3:06
Katy: And so, I was like, I need somebody to like, walk.
3:08
Katy: So, his outfit, um, Luke's dad, we ended up having like, he's like a photographer.
3:15
Katy: Like, the guy, like a guy who's like trying to take pictures of us.
3:18
Katy: So, I gave him like one of my old film cameras.
3:20
Katy: He has like a fishing vest on and stuff like that.
3:22
Katy: So, he just like looks like a guy.
3:24
Katy: Yeah.
3:25
Katy: So, yeah.
3:26
Katy: It should be fun.
3:29
Katy: Alrighty.
3:29
Katy: Ready to talk about death?
3:32
Laura: Yeah.
3:34
Laura: Alright.
3:34
Laura: I shall go first.
3:36
Laura: So, my animal that I'm going to be covering is elephants.
3:41
Laura: So, animals.
3:42
Laura: Species.
3:43
Laura: Multiple species.
3:44
Laura: In general, elephants.
3:46
Laura: And, uh, real quick overview of elephants.
3:50
Laura: But in, like, the briefest of overview.
3:52
Laura: Because if you don't know what an elephant looks like at this point in your life, I can't help you.
3:56
Laura: We can't help you.
3:59
Laura: We're here for
4:00
Katy: nature novices, not babies.
4:03
Laura: Not nature babies, sorry.
4:06
Laura: Um, they are the largest land mammal, found in Africa and Asia, living in a wide range of habitats.
4:11
Laura: There are three species, which actually I'm not sure that I knew.
4:15
Laura: I didn't know that the African were split into two.
4:18
Laura: So there's the African Forest, and the African Savannah, and then Asian.
4:23
Laura: Asian has subspecies.
4:25
Laura: But the Africans are just separate genetic species.
4:27
Laura: But not until the year 2000, so maybe that's why I didn't know.
4:30
Katy: I feel like I learned that on one of, we were prepping for one of our, um, Elephant Days at the zoo.
4:37
Katy: I feel like I remember reading about that, that I was like, oh, cause I, again, I was like, I, That's around the same time that we realized that camels were originally from North America and our, like, minds were blown.
4:45
Laura: Yeah.
4:47
Laura: Well, so we have talked before on the podcast about how amazingly intelligent and social these animals are.
4:53
Laura: Like, we keep bringing up the same animals, guys, because of the best things to talk about.
4:57
Laura: Whales.
4:58
Laura: Crows.
4:59
Laura: Elephants.
5:00
Laura: Like, it's gonna keep coming up.
5:03
Katy: Pigeons.
5:03
Katy: Seagulls.
5:04
Katy: Yeah.
5:04
Katy: Yeah.
5:04
Katy: The
5:07
Laura: best ones.
5:09
Laura: Typically because they're so smart and so social.
5:11
Laura: So they're interesting to talk about.
5:13
Laura: Elephants live in herds, which are just large family units.
5:17
Laura: that are matriarchal.
5:18
Laura: So led by the oldest female, it's mostly moms and their babies.
5:22
Laura: The males get kicked out after they're a certain age and they go sometimes form bachelor herds or just hang out by themselves.
5:28
Laura: They have very strong social bonds.
5:31
Laura: They're so smart that they've been seen to use tools in the wild and they have exceptional long term memory.
5:37
Laura: So all of this is key in understanding and being in, in understanding how they are both understanding and being impacted by death.
5:49
Katy: See, okay, hold on, wait, wait, wait, pause for a second.
5:53
Katy: What, I think what gets me about like all this elephant stuff is that they know.
5:57
Katy: Like, to me, that's what gets me, is like, freak, they know.
6:01
Katy: Cause if it was just like, oh, they, you know, they're dead, meh, whatever.
6:05
Katy: But it's the fact that they know, that that's heartbreaking.
6:08
Katy: Because they don't understand fully.
6:10
Katy: They know, but they don't understand.
6:12
Katy: You know what I mean?
6:13
Katy: Yeah, I mean,
6:14
Laura: this is an interesting, there's a whole book that I started to read about this years and years ago.
6:19
Laura: And it's about animals and grief and mourning.
6:22
Laura: Um, I can't remember what it's called, but there's been a lot of study, and like, many species have shown evidence of what we could call mourning, which is basically just missing something.
6:32
Laura: Yeah.
6:33
Laura: Yeah.
6:33
Laura: And then it seems like the higher you go, particularly with animals that are social than, and more intelligent, then there's like more of an understanding here.
6:43
Laura: But I thought what's even fascinating is like, I mean, house cats show some evidence of mourning.
6:50
Laura: And they're not even social animals, except for with humans, which I
6:52
Katy: think is interesting.
6:54
Katy: Yeah, I mean, our cats, we had two cats growing up, and when my sister's cat got hit by a car, my cat was like, severely depressed for a few, like, several weeks.
7:05
Katy: Several weeks, just so, so upset.
7:07
Katy: So I mean, they do, I mean, but, but I mean, my cat was more like a dog than a cat, so.
7:12
Laura: Right, right.
7:13
Laura: And like, it just shows that there, there is time perception, in a way.
7:18
Laura: Mhm.
7:18
Laura: Like, they know.
7:20
Laura: They're gone.
7:20
Laura: Yeah.
7:21
Laura: Yeah.
7:23
Laura: It would be amazing, like, how, how cognizant of it are things like whales and elephants.
7:29
Laura: Yeah.
7:30
Laura: Some of the higher, like.
7:32
Laura: So from what researchers have observed in the wild and in captivity, elephants seem to exhibit morning behavior that is actually pretty darn scarily similar to humans.
7:42
Laura: So when an elephant in the herd dies, all the herd members show signs of distress.
7:47
Laura: And like, everybody listening is probably like, well, no, duh.
7:50
Laura: But what does this look like?
7:52
Laura: They might emit vocalizations distinct from their everyday communication sounds.
7:57
Laura: They might touch or stroke the deceased member.
8:01
Laura: And like, okay, we're not talking like, poke and prod.
8:04
Laura: We're talking like, gentle.
8:06
Laura: Yeah.
8:07
Laura: Not, maybe, maybe like, wake up at first.
8:09
Laura: But then it says, um, that they like, cautiously touch.
8:14
Laura: And obtain information.
8:15
Laura: They specifically might focus their trunk tips along the lower jaw, tusks, and teeth.
8:20
Laura: Which is the part that they would be most familiar with, because when elephants communicate through touch, they're always touching each other's mouths.
8:27
Laura: So like, that's how they know each other.
8:29
Laura: So when the elephant dies, that's the part they're still touching.
8:32
Laura: To like, see, you know, who this is, what's going on.
8:35
Laura: It's the parts they're most familiar with.
8:37
Laura: And the most individual.
8:39
Laura: And then the elephants might become visually somber, showing less activity and display altered behaviors.
8:46
Laura: Like eerily quiet, like first really loud and then just like super quiet.
8:50
Laura: Silent.
8:50
Laura: Um, some people have said eerily so.
8:55
Laura: Let me give you some examples.
8:57
Laura: And like some of these I'm just going to read because I couldn't do them justice.
9:00
Laura: Some of these anecdotes are just wild.
9:03
Laura: So.
9:04
Laura: So, when I say that researchers have observed this stuff, here's what I'm talking about.
9:09
Laura: In Amboseli National Park, Kenya, researchers observed an elephant cow attempting to lift, and then did lift, for at least 1, 500 feet, the body of her dead calf, um, which is heartbreaking.
9:23
Laura: Yeah.
9:24
Laura: And this isn't that uncommon for animals that, like, it's not that uncommon for primates, but you have to remember that something like a primate normally carries their baby.
9:34
Laura: Yeah.
9:34
Laura: An elephant never carries their baby.
9:36
Laura: Yeah.
9:38
Laura: It's not
9:38
Katy: like you see it going down the savannah with it under its trunk,
9:41
Laura: just carrying it around.
9:43
Laura: Or wiggling across the tusk.
9:44
Laura: Right.
9:46
Laura: But yeah, no, this is a completely abnormal behavior where the mom was like, it can't walk.
9:51
Laura: I have to carry it.
9:52
Laura: Oh, God.
9:53
Katy: Can.
9:54
Katy: Freaking
9:54
Laura: tragic.
9:54
Laura: It's gonna make me cry just even like talking about this stuff.
9:57
Laura: As we're both moms and we're like, She has to carry.
10:01
Laura: Like, I can't even.
10:05
Laura: She has to can't do it.
10:08
Laura: Horrible.
10:08
Laura: We should put a trigger warning at the beginning.
10:11
Laura: Yeah, we can.
10:12
Laura: I guess with the, I guess with the name like, Death Rituals or whatever we're gonna call it.
10:16
Laura: True.
10:17
Laura: Pretty obvious.
10:18
Laura: True.
10:20
Laura: In South Africa, an elephant named Lawrence, which also, what a ridiculous name for an elephant.
10:28
Laura: That's such a good elephant name.
10:30
Laura: Oh my gosh, it's so good.
10:31
Laura: Lawrence was documented carrying the skull of a deceased elephant, which is a behavior consistent with mourning and attachment.
10:38
Laura: So like, this guy just went crazy and started carrying his best friend around.
10:43
Laura: Just the skull.
10:43
Laura: Oh my goodness.
10:44
Laura: Like in Hamlet or something.
10:45
Laura: You know, like, just.
10:47
Laura: Yeah.
10:48
Laura: Yeah.
10:48
Laura: What if the researcher just caught him, like, making it move up and down?
10:53
Laura: With his trunk like a puppet.
10:54
Laura: Like, I read through the question.
10:59
Laura: We're gonna find, we're gonna find people in this episode that either
11:02
Katy: have just the same,
11:03
Laura: like a weird sense of humor as us, or people are gonna be like, I'm never listening to these two whack jobs again.
11:10
Laura: Insensitive.
11:12
Laura: Um, Um, let's see.
11:50
Laura: There are...
11:51
Laura: So, one person observed that they had collected several dozen elephant jaws on the ground in and around their camp, of this researcher camp.
12:00
Laura: I guess they were studying some stuff.
12:02
Laura: But a family of elephants, a herd of elephants, came through and detoured right to their matriarch's, their deceased matriarch's jaw.
12:11
Laura: They spent some time with it, they all touched it, then they all moved on except for one.
12:16
Laura: And that one spent a long time stroking the jaw, and like fondling it, turning it over, and his name was Butch, and he was her seven year old son.
12:28
Laura: Oh, God, that's
12:29
Katy: heartbreaking!
12:32
Laura: He recognized the jaw bone.
12:36
Laura: This
12:36
Katy: is too, this is too much! We, we need to
12:39
Laura: give ourselves a trigger warning! For both like, ah, ha ha ha, much, much Let's see.
12:52
Laura: Another scientist, Ian Douglas Hamilton, once moved part of an elephant shot by a farmer to a different location.
12:58
Laura: Okay, most of...
12:59
Laura: a lot of this is coming from the depths of animal grief on Nova, just as a play dress thing.
13:05
Laura: Soon a family came along and when they caught the scent they all like came running over, trunks waving up and down, blah blah blah.
13:12
Laura: At first they all seemed reluctant to like touch the bones, but then they all advanced in a tight huddle and began sniffing and like examining the tusks of this dead elephant.
13:24
Laura: Some of the bones they rocked and rolled gently with their feet.
13:27
Laura: Some they clunked together, some they tasted, several individuals in turn rolled the skull, and soon all of the elephants were investigating and carrying the bones away.
13:37
Laura: Which is, like, weird.
13:40
Laura: They're like, thank you.
13:42
Laura: I'll take these.
13:43
Laura: These are, like, mementos.
13:44
Laura: Morimentos.
13:46
Laura: Another guy one time shot a male elephant.
13:48
Laura: And the local people butchered him for meat, then moved the carcass half a mile away.
13:53
Laura: And then that night, elephants returned a shoulder blade and a leg bone to the exact spot where the elephant had died half a mile away.
14:00
Laura: Could you
14:01
Katy: imagine you wake up and it's back?
14:04
Katy: Like, especially if you don't understand and don't know.
14:07
Katy: Like, oh, it's back.
14:08
Katy: It's back.
14:09
Katy: Like,
14:09
Laura: nope.
14:10
Laura: That sounds like a threat.
14:12
Laura: Right?
14:12
Laura: It does.
14:12
Laura: You
14:15
Katy: kill him.
14:16
Katy: We're coming back for ya.
14:19
Laura: This one's crazy.
14:20
Laura: I had never heard this one before.
14:22
Laura: So, elephants have been known to cover their dead with soil and vegetation, which is just straight up burial.
14:30
Laura: Burying, yeah.
14:31
Laura: So like, the only animal, other than us, that exhibits some sort of burial.
14:36
Laura: And they've even been known to do this when humans are involved, so like, when a sport hunter shot a big male, his companions...
14:45
Laura: Surrounded it and then like covered it with soil and leaves and they had even covered his head wounded mud Whoa Yeah, like, were they trying to fix them?
14:57
Laura: Yeah, that's what I
14:58
Katy: was gonna say.
14:59
Katy: Let's patch you up right here, bud.
15:01
Katy: Like, slapping on mud.
15:03
Katy: Like, are
15:03
Laura: they trying to, like...
15:06
Laura: Your accent just sounded like, let's patch him up here, bud.
15:10
Laura: Duh, beard.
15:12
Katy: Like, you guys are just slapping mud on him.
15:15
Katy: Like, I mean, A for effort, guys.
15:18
Katy: I mean, alright,
15:20
Laura: they tried.
15:22
Laura: Alright, and then one more, one more.
15:24
Laura: This one says, one day a few years ago in Kenya a matriarch elephant named Eleanor collapsed.
15:30
Laura: Another matriarch approached her.
15:31
Laura: Man, these elephant names.
15:33
Laura: I know, they're on point.
15:34
Laura: I would of course name all the elephants I was watching.
15:38
Laura: So Grace rapidly approached her with her facial glands streaming.
15:42
Laura: So elephants have two glands, not by their eyes, but like between their eyes and their ears.
15:48
Laura: And they have, people have noticed that they like, like leak, like it could be from emotion.
15:54
Laura: We don't know, but maybe.
15:57
Laura: Apparently her facial glands were streaming.
15:59
Laura: Grace lifted Eleanor onto her feet.
16:02
Laura: But Eleanor soon again collapsed, and Grace was very distressed and kept trying to lift her up.
16:07
Laura: No success.
16:08
Laura: And then she stayed with her into the night, and then during the night Eleanor died.
16:13
Laura: The next day, another elephant started rocking Eleanor's body with her foot.
16:18
Laura: During the third day, her body was attended by her family, and another family, and by her closest friend, Maya.
16:24
Laura: That's crazy! Um, and on the fifth day, her friend spent an hour and a half with the body.
16:29
Laura: A week after her death, Eleanor's family returned and spent half an hour.
16:33
Laura: Like, a whole week.
16:35
Laura: Her friends, her family, all of them.
16:39
Laura: Like, jeez, man.
16:41
Laura: If that's not grief, I really don't know what it is.
16:44
Laura: Right?
16:45
Laura: Um, and so one of the main researchers in all of this has been Dr.
16:51
Laura: Cynthia Moss.
16:52
Laura: So if you're interested in learning more about, like, elephant research with that, elephant behavior.
16:57
Laura: Including mourning rituals.
16:59
Laura: That's like, look her up, Dr.
17:01
Laura: Cynthia Moss.
17:02
Laura: And then some scientists have studied actual physiological and behavioral changes in elephants when they encounter deceased herd members, confirming that they exhibit distinct responses indicative of mourning.
17:15
Laura: So like, physiological and behavioral wise, something is happening.
17:20
Laura: And then to kind of, well, Almost wrap this up.
17:24
Laura: I just want to just talk about, so why, why would elephants mourn?
17:29
Laura: Like what, what's the purpose?
17:31
Laura: You know, I mean, if you've ever really thought about it, evolution wise, like let's, from pure science, you know, why do we do any of this stuff?
17:39
Laura: Um, well, of course there's no knowing, but there's two theories about why elephants would mourn.
17:45
Laura: One is the role of empathy.
17:48
Laura: And it says that, you know, it suggests that maybe elephants exhibit.
17:52
Laura: Empathy and emotional connections and having empathy would allow them to recognize the emotional state of others in their herd and keep them cohesive.
18:00
Laura: So there is an evolution advantage to empathy.
18:04
Laura: Um, and of course reinforcing social bonds and group cohesion.
18:08
Laura: Um, so.
18:10
Laura: Yeah.
18:11
Laura: Performing some sort of ritual together reinforces social bonds within the herd.
18:17
Laura: Helping with unity and ensuring the survival of the remaining members.
18:22
Laura: And by acknowledging the loss and comforting each other, it might promote overall well being of the herd.
18:28
Laura: So, you know, I mean, there's definitely like, some science behind it.
18:32
Katy: Yeah, no, and that makes sense too, because if you think about it, I mean, humans do the same thing.
18:37
Katy: I mean, that's really what a funeral is.
18:38
Katy: You know, the funeral is not for the person who passed, they're dead.
18:41
Katy: You know, it's for the, it's for the family.
18:42
Katy: And I know, like, when my dad passed, that's, I, and I still say, like, that's, like, we laughed so much.
18:49
Katy: But again we're Reese Fit, Reese's, like, that's how we cope, is with humor.
18:53
Katy: And so, like, that's but, I have, like, My dad's cousins and stuff that I wasn't very close to before his passing, but because of his passing now we're pretty close with just because talking more to him and stuff like that, like dealing with my dad's death just brought the family as a whole closer together.
19:11
Katy: I mean, my dad also died pretty young too, but still.
19:14
Katy: So I mean, there is an evolution advantage to that.
19:16
Katy: And so I can, I can see that.
19:19
Katy: And
19:19
Laura: yeah.
19:19
Laura: And just like you were saying, how your family deals with things differently, there is evidence that elephants have.
19:25
Laura: You know how, like, we've talked about, like, how orcas and great whites, they hunt differently depending on where they are, like, there's, like, culture?
19:32
Laura: Yeah.
19:32
Laura: There's elephant culture.
19:33
Laura: There are different vocalizations, there are different periods of mourning, there are different ways they do this depending on where they are.
19:39
Laura: Yeah.
19:40
Laura: Huh.
19:42
Katy: Neato.
19:43
Laura: Yeah, that's elephants, which is freaking heartbreaking.
19:46
Katy: No, it is.
19:47
Katy: It is.
19:48
Katy: And, like, and again, it's for me, it's like, how much do they actually understand it?
19:53
Katy: And for me, it's hardest because Like, while we don't, you know, nobody knows 100 percent sure what happens, you know, after we die.
20:02
Katy: It's still, like, we can at least think of all that stuff and at least hold on to, like, hope of what we think happens after death.
20:09
Katy: But, like, animals just, I feel, and that's where I, that's where it gets me is, like, they're, it's like a little kid.
20:14
Katy: Like, a little kid knows that a person's gone, but they don't quite understand.
20:19
Katy: They know that they're never going to see them again, but they don't quite.
20:22
Katy: Get it.
20:22
Katy: And that for me is what gets me is like, they just don't understand.
20:26
Katy: Like, they don't know what actually happened.
20:29
Katy: Alrighty, well, talking about humans and that's a good segway, sorry this thing, that's a good segway into mine because, I mean, distantly, distantly of distantly related, lemurs is what I'm going to talk about.
20:42
Katy: So still within the primate ish realm of things.
20:45
Katy: Lemur is fascinating.
20:47
Katy: Yeah.
20:47
Katy: So I couldn't find a whole lot of like specific examples, like how you have, cause I mean lemurs are studied but like not nearly as closely and followed as elephants are of course.
20:57
Katy: Yeah.
20:57
Katy: Yeah.
20:57
Katy: Yeah.
20:58
Katy: But first note, some natural history about lemurs.
21:01
Katy: Lemurs are not monkeys.
21:03
Katy: Alright?
21:04
Katy: They're a completely different thing.
21:05
Katy: I also found out that one of the biggest characteristics between them, besides them, you know, living on a completely different island that broke off forever ago is that they're characterized by what they call, like, they have wet noses.
21:18
Katy: And that's like one of the characterizations that lemurs have that other primates don't have.
21:22
Katy: that from lemur day.
21:23
Katy: Yeah, and it's, and it helps them in smelling and sense.
21:27
Katy: And I was never knew that.
21:29
Katy: So anyway, what knows is one characteristic that makes them different from monkeys.
21:34
Katy: But they did, like I said, they branched off from the typical primates a long, long, long time ago.
21:42
Katy: And the lemurs that evolved on Madagascar are incredibly unique compared like completely, completely different compared to monkeys.
21:51
Katy: Yeah, just so so different.
21:52
Katy: There's over a hundred recognized species and subspecies of lemurs Which is nuts for like an on an island, you know what I mean?
21:59
Katy: Like that's so many for on an island
22:01
Laura: Yeah, yeah, that's a big island though.
22:04
Laura: It
22:04
Katy: is it is but still For a hundred, you know, it's a hundred recognized species and subspecies That's not individuals.
22:12
Katy: I mean, there's not a ton of them, but still so anyway Some physical characteristics of lemurs, they come in a wide range of colors and sizes from tiny mouse lemurs, which are about the size of a, you know, mouse, cause that's their name, uh, to a large and distinctive injury, injury lemurs.
22:30
Katy: They have large expressive eyes, which are adapted for most of their nocturnal and corpuscular, which is active at dawn and dusk lifestyles.
22:37
Katy: They also possess a keen sense of smell, which is what I was saying earlier.
22:40
Katy: partially due to their moist noses, which they use for both communication and finding food.
22:46
Katy: Similar to like Laura's is lemurs.
22:48
Katy: They do exhibit a wide variety of spectrum of social behaviors from solitary species, the highly social groups.
22:55
Katy: Some lemur species like the ring tailed lemurs live in female dominated groups with complex social hierarchies, while others like the I I are more solitary creatures.
23:06
Katy: So depending as we're Start to move into, you know, the morning and talking about grief and death.
23:12
Katy: It drastically varies due to obviously if they're a social or if they're not.
23:19
Katy: Because, like we talked about, I mean, there are adaptations and reasons for why animals are born.
23:25
Katy: Um, a couple more things, just natural history.
23:27
Katy: Lemurs diets, they vary depending on the species and region of habitat, of course.
23:32
Katy: Most lemurs are omnivores, consuming a mix of fruits, leaves, insects, and small vertebrates.
23:38
Katy: Some species are highly specialized, though, and may primarily eat species of bamboo, nectar, or other specific food sources.
23:46
Katy: Um, and then again, because they are on an island, they're...
23:49
Katy: Most are classified as threatened or in danger due to habitat loss, fragmentation, hunting, all kinds of stuff.
23:56
Katy: Alrighty, so now let's go ahead and let's go into the lemur death rituals and mourning.
24:02
Katy: So, like what Lore was talking about with the elephants.
24:07
Katy: All right.
24:07
Katy: So the social structures within lemurs, they showcase a diverse array of social structures.
24:13
Katy: Like I said, varying from solitary to highly social, depending on the species and highly social lemur species that I just mentioned, such as ring toed lemurs, black and white rough lemurs and red fronted lemurs, individuals form very close knit family groups.
24:30
Katy: These groups are typically organized around maternal lines, led by a dominant female, and comprised of extended families.
24:37
Katy: So they are, they can get pretty big.
24:39
Laura: It's so interesting we both decided to do matriarchal things.
24:44
Laura: Like, I wonder if there's a, um, because, you know, like, like whales have shown a lot of this stuff.
24:51
Laura: Yeah.
24:51
Laura: Also matriarchal.
24:52
Laura: Like, I wonder.
24:53
Katy: Hmm.
24:53
Katy: Yeah, if that leads.
24:55
Laura: We're just, we're more emotional.
24:59
Katy: I mean, it could be, it also could be like we women tend to see the value of joining together where I feel like a lot of males in general would rather go an individual route and be solo.
25:13
Katy: You know what I mean?
25:14
Katy: Um,
25:15
Laura: yeah, that could be true.
25:16
Laura: So I feel like that these groups that are forming these close ties are just more connected than if you're like a patriarchal.
25:25
Katy: Animal.
25:25
Katy: Yeah.
25:26
Katy: Yeah.
25:27
Katy: Because I feel like any patriarchal group that I can think of, I feel like they're still, I mean, gorillas, which they do morning, but they're also like a whole other,
25:40
Laura: I guess great apes.
25:41
Katy: Yeah.
25:42
Katy: Yeah.
25:42
Katy: But they're, but they're also, because they're so intelligent, that's like all, I mean, it's kind of like elephants where they're just like a whole other level of intelligence.
25:50
Katy: Hmm.
25:51
Katy: Oh, anyway, so the family bonds are not only instrumental for daily activities such as foraging, grooming and protection, but they also foster a strong emotional connections and trust among group members.
26:05
Katy: These bonds provide essential social support during times of stress, including when mourning the loss of a group member.
26:12
Katy: Now everyone can pretty much assume, for the most part, since lemurs are related to primates, that lemurs do exhibit a range of cognitive abilities.
26:21
Katy: Some, you know, obviously, some species are smarter than others but They are still known for the relatively complex social interactions and problem solving skills that involve the around the social grouping and structures.
26:35
Katy: So lemurs, let's talk about, like, the actual reactions to death of a group member.
26:40
Katy: It's interesting though, to note that lemurs.
26:43
Katy: Like I said earlier, broke off evolutionary from great apes long, long time ago.
26:48
Katy: And while the great apes and old world monkeys were mentioned, this earlier have been known to carry around their dead young for days.
26:55
Katy: Lemurs have actually not been seen to do this really.
26:59
Katy: But again, they branched off like along.
27:02
Katy: Time ago.
27:03
Katy: Um, I was coming across and I was looking up like just general research on primates and things.
27:08
Katy: There was a BBC documentary.
27:10
Katy: I think it was like 2016 or 17 that showed a group of Langer monkeys that were grieving what they thought to be a dead baby and like carrying it and everything.
27:21
Katy: But really, it was just a robotic monkey, like a spy monkey that they put up with a camera.
27:26
Katy: But because it was like a robotic monkey, They assumed that it was, they're like, oh my god, this thing's dead.
27:31
Katy: And so they carried it around, like, cause they thought it was dead.
27:35
Katy: Yeah, right?
27:36
Katy: But meanwhile, it's just, it's a robot monkey.
27:38
Katy: But yes, I came across that.
27:39
Katy: I just thought that was pretty funny.
27:41
Katy: That same year though studying primates and things, scientists observed a chimpanzee using tools to clean the body of a deceased group member.
27:50
Katy: A female sat down with a dead male and used a firm stem of grass to clean his teeth.
27:57
Katy: And the practice researchers say suggests that.
27:59
Katy: Chimps may have a more sophisticated response, obviously, yeah, to death than we currently know.
28:04
Katy: Um, kind of, like, if you think about it, like, they, I don't know, like, taking care of them still.
28:10
Katy: You know what I mean?
28:11
Katy: Like, just trying to bond, like, kind of like what you were saying, like, with the elephants and stuff.
28:15
Laura: Or in complete and utter
28:17
Katy: denial.
28:18
Katy: Yeah, yeah, could very well could be.
28:20
Katy: Yeah.
28:21
Katy: So, when a member of a lemur group dies, fellow members, particularly those with the close social bonds, like I said, often have this, like, just obvious signs of distress and altered behaviors.
28:33
Katy: They may become more subdued and less active, like, extremely more subdued and less active.
28:38
Katy: Vocalizations, including alarm calls and contact calls, can change in response to the death.
28:44
Katy: So, they've.
28:45
Katy: They've noticed, researchers have noticed that the individual may not only display the behaviors, but as they're calling between individuals and then against to other like lemur groups and things that their call is like, they have a completely different set of calls around lemur deaths and whenever someone in their group passes away.
29:05
Katy: Yeah.
29:06
Katy: So these observable behaviors reflect the emotional impact of the loss on our remaining group members and demonstrate their capacity to experience grief and distress.
29:15
Katy: Mourning lemurs may also engage in behaviors aimed at providing comfort to the deceased individual or seeking solace for themselves.
29:23
Katy: These behaviors include, like I said earlier, the grooming of the deceased body, touching or even huddling together.
29:29
Katy: Grooming serves as both practical and emotional function, if you think about it from an evolution standpoint.
29:34
Katy: It helps cleaning the body of the deceased, but it also provides as a comforting bond experience for the group members involved, is what they're thinking that it is now.
29:43
Katy: Physical contact, such as touching or huddling, can offer a reassurance.
29:47
Katy: Right?
29:48
Katy: Um, but it can offer reassurance during the mourning process and it emphasizes the importance of social bonds and coping with the loss.
29:56
Katy: Again, we talked about it like with humans, like how coming together just to try to help each other out during the hard time.
30:02
Katy: I mean, even lemurs, I mean, and again, they're not as smart as like great apes, but they're still very intelligent.
30:09
Katy: Just some more like specific examples that we want to talk about real quick of researchers and wildlife observers have it.
30:16
Katy: Definitely documented mourning behaviors in various lemurs.
30:19
Katy: Like I said, I don't have quite as many as what we do with the elephants, but there's some here.
30:24
Katy: There's a case of a ring tailed lemur, research published in the journal Primates, highlighted how individuals may engage in grooming, huddling, and even vocalization.
30:34
Katy: And there is another one in the American Journal of Primatology.
30:37
Katy: Well, they noted a white and black rough lemurs exhibiting protective behaviors towards the deceased.
30:42
Katy: And these ones were one of the very few instances where they would carry the body and guarded against potential threats.
30:48
Katy: But they think that the carrying of the body in this case, like wasn't so much of a caring as it was like, we need to move them because there was a potential threat to the body.
30:58
Katy: So they like moved it out of the way, you know what I mean?
31:02
Katy: Some of the more in depth emotional responses to death, uh, some people that we know from the Duke Lemur Center, they've actually done research Dr.
31:11
Katy: Patricia Wright and Dr.
31:12
Katy: Anne Yoder have shown that lemurs can experience emotional responses to death that resembles human grief.
31:18
Katy: And again, they did a bunch of research talking about sadness and distress and response to, uh, The death of a group member.
31:25
Katy: So we, you know, we, Laura and I have kind of speculated on what we think, you know, are some of the reasons of why they do it, but with, as far as lemurs go, there have been a couple.
31:36
Katy: Uh, scientists that have done research Dr.
31:39
Katy: Daniel wit Tia, he studied the role of empathy and emotional connectness within LIS and specifically whenever they are mourning because of their interesting capacity for empathy.
31:51
Katy: 'cause it's not, again.
31:53
Katy: Not as high as a grade eight, but they're still intelligent enough to kind of know.
31:58
Katy: But yeah, so I just, I thought it was interesting.
32:00
Katy: Again, it kind of, lemurs kind of fill that, I don't want to say gap, but it's like almost like a gap between.
32:06
Katy: Higher thinking animals and then like animals that just are like, well, they're dead and just move on kind of thing.
32:12
Katy: Lemurs sort of fill that in between role.
32:15
Katy: So I thought it was, I thought it was pretty interesting.
32:17
Katy: I think it's cool
32:18
Laura: because, you know, like I did elephants and of course, I think a lot of people know that elephants of course are intelligent and social and they probably do something with death.
32:26
Laura: But I bet almost nobody thinks about lemurs.
32:28
Laura: So I'm glad that you chose like a more obscure animal.
32:31
Katy: Yeah, and, and again, like, I just, I was just researching and trying to pick one, and Again, like, to me, I thought, like, I didn't, one, I didn't know about the wet nose thing, but two, the amount of, like, vocalization that goes into, like, I would like to figure out and read more research into that because there was a,
32:51
Laura: so freaking loud.
32:53
Laura: They are.
32:54
Katy: They
32:54
Laura: are.
32:54
Laura: I remember taking care of lemurs at the zoo and like them screaming and holy crap, they'd make you go deaf if you were in there with them cleaning, right?
33:03
Katy: Yeah, yeah.
33:04
Katy: And so it would be interesting to find out or, um, I don't know, like dig deeper into the different calls because like they, they described some of it as like, you could tell, you could tell just as a human, like that the calls were like somber, eerie, and they just sounded like you could tell they sounded sad.
33:28
Katy: So just be interesting to Yeah.
33:30
Laura: I mean, yeah, they said that elephants kind of did the same
33:32
Katy: thing.
33:33
Katy: Yeah.
33:35
Katy: Yeah.
33:36
Laura: What I wanted to end with was that, you know, this whole episode, we've talked about how the animals are mourning or having grief of some kind, and these are pretty extreme circumstances, but, and like we mentioned, there's a lot of animals that exhibit some sort of distress or mourning, and of course, I feel like a lot of people are like, But you guys can't anthropomorphize too much, because that's where you run the risk of course, of being like, well they're feeling sad, and they're feeling lost, and they're feeling grief.
34:06
Laura: But, at the same time, like, although they might not feel exactly what we're feeling, they obviously feel something, and they're feeling it very deeply.
34:15
Laura: At least in the case of elephants and some of the other things, like, this is like extreme loss.
34:20
Laura: They're showing mourning and burial and some form of understanding, and I think that the implications for all of this Is that we don't fully understand non human emotions of animals, so we have to think about those kinds of things when we take care of them, or when we, you know, use them on farm.
34:41
Laura: Any type of like, husbandry, conservation, research protocols, like, there's a lot more going on under there, and this is, these are just like extreme cases, but, you know, they can feel something.
34:55
Katy: Thank you.
34:55
Katy: Yeah, and like you said, like, running that line of not treating them as humans, but at the same time is understanding that there's something else kind of, kind of going on there.
35:06
Katy: So, yeah.
35:07
Katy: Anyway, I learned a lot.
35:09
Katy: I thought that was a good one to research.
35:12
Katy: Well guys, go ahead and reach out to us on Twitter and interact with us there, or just go ahead and support us on Patreon so that we can keep bringing you guys more episodes.
35:20
Katy: Yeah,
35:21
Laura: thanks so much tune in next week and happy post Halloween, Day of the Dead, All Souls Day, All Saints Day, is that time
35:29
Katy: of year?
35:29
Katy: Yeah.
35:30
Katy: Alright, till next week guys.
35:31
Katy: Bye.