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New "FANS' for Kohberger? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grief. Ever since Brian Coburger was
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: arrested in the quadruple sleigh of four incredible Beautiful University
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Idaho students, he's been causing one drama after the next.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Right now we are learning, believe it or not, that
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the Idaho murder suspect Brian Coburger has developed admirers who
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: are in love with him, who lavish praise upon him,
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  Speaker 1: and who question his guilt. Also, a group has emerged
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  Speaker 1: called Justice for Brian, Justice for Brian Coburger. These Coburger
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  Speaker 1: sympathizers praise his looks, they think he's handsome, and they
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  Speaker 1: create pictures of him for online and they edit on
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  Speaker 1: hearts onto him in his jail jumpsuit. Sydney, I better
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  Speaker 1: not find out that you're one of them with me.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: High profile lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction and also
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  Speaker 1: a former FBI agent, Dale Carson is joining us from
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  Speaker 1: del Carson Law dot com. What about this Idaho murder suspect?
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Brian Coburger has a very active following amongst sympathetic social
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  Speaker 1: media enthusiasts that actually put hearts and it hearts onto
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  Speaker 1: his jumpsuit. Help me deal. I really find that rather appalling.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: But I look back to the Charles Manson behavior where
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  Speaker 1: he had a cult of women that followed him around
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  Speaker 1: before the killings and then afterwards received love letters just
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  Speaker 1: constantly for all these years. And if I'm not mistaken,
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  Speaker 1: he got married before he passed away, So then you
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  Speaker 1: have Ted Bundy. And Bundy was certainly that, and he
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  Speaker 1: used that rather male attractiveness to target. He used his
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: male attractiveness. I didn't think Bundy was attractive. He looks
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  Speaker 1: like Satan. He looks exactly like Satan straight from hell.
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  Speaker 1: Of course you and I would not necessarily be attracted
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  Speaker 1: by that. But of course many young women attempted to
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  Speaker 1: help him when he faked a cast injury and those
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: sorts of things which led to their ultimate deaths. Yes,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: it did. It led to their murders a fast. You
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: know what's interesting, Well, there's so much interesting about it.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going to circle back to these largely women that
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: are editing photos of Coburger and placing them online with
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  Speaker 1: hearts attached to his prison jumpsuit. And that should really
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: be a red bell of alarm in your brain when
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: you find yourself attaching editing hearts onto someone's prison jumpsuit.
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  Speaker 1: Ding ding ding ding ding ding got the wrong guy.
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  Speaker 1: And I know you're not a shrinkedale, but I know this.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: You've defended a lot of cases. And how many times
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  Speaker 1: has a young woman or a woman been that it's
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  Speaker 1: old enough to know better, been led down the garden
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  Speaker 1: path by a guy who's just absolutely no good? You
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: know what? This is another reason for you, Sydney. I
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  Speaker 1: don't know why women go after the bad choices, you
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: know what. I think they get so addicted to the
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  Speaker 1: drama of the bad choice that when they find a good,
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  Speaker 1: decent guy, he's boring to them. Let me tell you,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: good and decent is not boring. In addition to all
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: of these lovelorn women that are editing hearts onto his
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  Speaker 1: prison jumpsuit is there are about three thousand members of
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  Speaker 1: Justice for Brian Coburger on Facebook that was created not
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: too many days after his arrest. There is a Brian
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  Speaker 1: Nation Brian Nation b r y b R y A
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  Speaker 1: N A t I O N on Reddit with a
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  Speaker 1: thread titled what was it about Brian that got your liking? Answer? Nothing,
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  Speaker 1: But apparently some people have a different answer, And there
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: is our slash Brian Coburger. That's another thread. It has
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: another thread title why Brian Coburger is not guilty, And
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  Speaker 1: they are getting hundreds and hundreds of comments. People are
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  Speaker 1: actually reading this, Del carn, Well, what a way to
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  Speaker 1: get What a way to get commentary on your own existence. Right,
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  Speaker 1: you demonstrate that you're unusual and that you have a
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  Speaker 1: propensity to love people who shouldn't be loved, And of
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  Speaker 1: course you're creating an environment for yourself where people will
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  Speaker 1: pay attention to people who otherwise wouldn't have any attention
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  Speaker 1: placed on them at all. So I think it's a
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: mechanism of attention gathering. There is a Facebook user who says, quote,
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  Speaker 1: she's a single mile from Kentucky, She's written dozens and
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  Speaker 1: dozens of love letters, and she describes Brian Coberger as
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  Speaker 1: her quote divine, masculine end quote. I don't understand the attraction,
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  Speaker 1: of course, at the same time he is charged by
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: the state of quadruple murder. There are tells from women
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  Speaker 1: that have met him face to face. If I've talked
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  Speaker 1: about that, Del Carson number one, the women at bars
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  Speaker 1: that he goes up to and goes, hey, what's your address?
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  Speaker 1: I would run for the hills if someone said that.
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  Speaker 1: And then of course those poor students that worked under
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  Speaker 1: him when he was there ta and he has been
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  Speaker 1: accused of misogyny, hatred of women, of treating the female
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  Speaker 1: students differently, being much more harsh, greater upon event on
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  Speaker 1: them and their work. So I'm very intrigued by these
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  Speaker 1: women that have a huge crush on Brian Coburger. And
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: they're not just saying hey, I've got a crush, They're saying, hey,
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  Speaker 1: he's not guilty. I certainly hope someone like that doesn't
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  Speaker 1: end up on his jury. Well, And of course that's
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  Speaker 1: the whole point of vodire, is to challenge jurors to
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  Speaker 1: make sure they don't have an unfair biased when the
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  Speaker 1: state prosecutes the case. But the evidence against Goburger is
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  Speaker 1: significant and substantial. The only thing we don't have from
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  Speaker 1: him is a confession. You know. One of these groups,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Justice for Brian Kayberger, has created a lot of outrage
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  Speaker 1: on social media, and there is a quote on there
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  Speaker 1: from Ronald Jones, who was the guy who was wrongly
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  Speaker 1: convicted of murder and was given a death sentence, and
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  Speaker 1: he says, it's about whether or not you can prove
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  Speaker 1: your innocent, he says, now it is guilty until proven innocent.
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  Speaker 1: That is absolutely not true. I mean, look at Robert
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  Speaker 1: Blake who walked, look at Michael Jackson who walked, look
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  Speaker 1: at O. J. Simpson who walked, look at top Mom,
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  Speaker 1: Casey Anthony who walked. Clearly all of them were guilty,
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  Speaker 1: no question, and they all were acquitted. So it is
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  Speaker 1: not guilty until proven innocent. I'd like to hear your
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  Speaker 1: thoughts on that, well. I agree with you. I think
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  Speaker 1: that the whole point of the defense bar is to
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  Speaker 1: challenge the government to make certain that when it does
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  Speaker 1: convict an individual, that they truly should be convicted, and
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  Speaker 1: I think that plays out in this country. I agree
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  Speaker 1: with people who say that it's innocent until proven guilty,
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  Speaker 1: but it's hard to push that narrative in the face
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  Speaker 1: of social media because they want it to be something different.
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  Speaker 1: They want to tear down our existing structures. They want
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  Speaker 1: to sort of recalibrate everything we hold as tradition and value,
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  Speaker 1: and that has an effect on the criminal justice system,
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  Speaker 1: and it certainly presents itself in awkward ways on social media.
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  Speaker 1: Because these people are basically anonymous, they can say whatever
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  Speaker 1: they want, and they're thrusting their finger into the eye
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  Speaker 1: of tradition, and they seem to do that in a
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  Speaker 1: certain number of people. A percentage of people do that
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  Speaker 1: as routine behavior, and those people are dangerous to all
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  Speaker 1: of us. Also, although he will most likely exercise his
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  Speaker 1: feth Amendment right to remain silent, he has indicated through
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  Speaker 1: others that he has quote eager to be exonerated. That
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  Speaker 1: reminds me of when oj Simpson stood up and when
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: the judge asked him to enter his plea, he said
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  Speaker 1: one not guilty. I mean, he's very convincing to those
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  Speaker 1: that had not examined the facts that he was eager
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  Speaker 1: to be exonerated, as Koburger is saying he was one
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  Speaker 1: hundred percent not guilty. He had a lot of bravado
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  Speaker 1: to his response, what do you make of Kyburger? Well,
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  Speaker 1: you're getting it out. They were eager to be exonerated.
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  Speaker 1: Your quote is accurate. That is promoted by people who
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  Speaker 1: don't know the facts because they don't want to hear
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  Speaker 1: the facts. They want to be contrarians. And of course,
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  Speaker 1: that fortunately is not what prevails in the criminal justice
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  Speaker 1: system in the United States generally. Now any system makes mistakes,
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  Speaker 1: but you can't always be judged by your mistakes. This
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  Speaker 1: is the strongest crimin justice system where the defendant does
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  Speaker 1: have opportunity to challenge the government's interest in a public trial,
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  Speaker 1: where their potential crime can be examined by a group
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  Speaker 1: of peers who will determine whether or not the state
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  Speaker 1: meets its burden. Where else in the world do we
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  Speaker 1: have that sort of exacting criminal justice system. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: Maybe England, maybe a few other countries, but overall, very
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  Speaker 1: very few time stories with Nancy Grace. Let me throw
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: another theory at you, the myth of the psychopath. You know,
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  Speaker 1: there is, you know, a mental disorder. It doesn't arise
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  Speaker 1: to insanity called psychopathy being a psychopath, because we hear
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  Speaker 1: people refer to Brian Coburger as well, he's a psychopath,
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  Speaker 1: as if that's somehow excuses everything he has done. For instance,
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  Speaker 1: you always read about these Hollywood stars that are cheating
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  Speaker 1: on their wives and they go, oh, you know, I'm
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  Speaker 1: a sex addic, I'm going to go to rehab bs
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  Speaker 1: that that is not an excuse that I don't believe that.
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  Speaker 1: I think that there may be a problem within you
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  Speaker 1: that you seek out meaningless sex or sex without any
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  Speaker 1: emotional attachment. But that is not an excuse for what
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  Speaker 1: you're doing. It's not a diffense for what you're doing.
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  Speaker 1: Like voluntary consumption of alcohol or drugs is typically not
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  Speaker 1: a defense under the law or else everybody in the
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  Speaker 1: Folder County jail would walk free right now. They go, oh,
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  Speaker 1: I was drunk, not guilty. So just claiming as if
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  Speaker 1: it's some type of an explanation Coburger's a psychopath. I'm
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  Speaker 1: not buying into that. Del Carson. Well, I think the
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  Speaker 1: idea that people are somehow by the DSM, the diagnostic
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  Speaker 1: statistic manuals that these psychiatrists use to determine whether or
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  Speaker 1: not someone has an illness which causes them to do
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  Speaker 1: these things, really is not something that should be used
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  Speaker 1: to validate whether they know the difference from right and wrong,
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  Speaker 1: which is the standard, And so it's not it's beyond
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  Speaker 1: belief that Coburger didn't know when he was allegedly stabbing
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  Speaker 1: these young women entering a house in the middle of
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  Speaker 1: the night and taking their lives, that he didn't know
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  Speaker 1: that that's not something that a human being is supposed
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  Speaker 1: to do to another human being. So from my perspective,
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  Speaker 1: whatever they consider him, the psychiatrist consider him, doesn't eliminate
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  Speaker 1: the need for us to understand that that individual knew
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  Speaker 1: the difference between right and wrong, and knows the difference
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  Speaker 1: between right and wrong, and he should be held responsible
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  Speaker 1: for his own conduct as we all should be. You
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  Speaker 1: know why I believe people come up with theories about
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: why someone committed a crime. I think it's because we
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  Speaker 1: want very much to understand. We want to apply logic
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  Speaker 1: to an illogical situation. About five years in I was
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  Speaker 1: sitting in court one day. Jerry was in there Dale.
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  Speaker 1: I looked him at the defendant, I thought, why did
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  Speaker 1: he do this? I thought, wait a minute, why am
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  Speaker 1: I wondering why? It's complete waste of time because I'll
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  Speaker 1: never know why he committed a murder. That's what we're
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  Speaker 1: trying to do, a co Burgner. We're saying, oh, he's
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  Speaker 1: a psychopath, that's why he did it. Well, don't you
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  Speaker 1: think we want to know that so that we can
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  Speaker 1: look at people and say that person's dangerous, that person's
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  Speaker 1: not dangerous, even though we know we can't do that, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: say that, Well, I think that we want to be
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: able to look at people and identify them as dangerous
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: because that's important to our survival. But I don't think
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  Speaker 1: we can really do that. And I do know that
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  Speaker 1: women have a better mechanism for detecting bulls and danger
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  Speaker 1: than men do. Typically, you will have a sense for
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: it which protects you in interesting ways that men simply
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  Speaker 1: don't have. I mean, our aggression comes out directly and
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: physical activity or shouting and things of that nature, whereas
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: women are much better at determining with someone's dangerous and
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: avoiding that danger instead of engaging it with a male
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  Speaker 1: pride that they fortunately don't have. I think people try
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: to make sense of what they say, Like I remember
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: watching Scott Peterson come in the courtroom all jacked up,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: you know, like a football player, or as we like
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: to say, boat up. And I looked Adam Dale and
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: he not to me, but some people thought he was
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: physically attractive, he could be charming. Some people, not me,
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  Speaker 1: thought he had a great smile. I thought it was
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: a devilish smile. He had a couge degree, he was
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: a great golfer, He had a beautiful wife, first child,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: on the way lovely home. I remember looking through the
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: window into their home on Covina and Lacy. Peterson had
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: it just decorated. It looked like a dollhouse, so beautifully
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: done on the inside. He had it all right. His
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: family worshiped him, loved him, He could do no wrong,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: So why would he do this thing? I think that's
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: part of the reason that so many people believed Peterson
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: was not guilty, because it just didn't make sense. It
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: was like the eye was checking the mind. And here
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I think people are trying to basically medicalize hate and
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: evil and mentorea and malice and premeditation because it's hard
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  Speaker 1: for people to accept Coburger could do this to these
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: three beautiful girls in this wonderful, handsome young man ethan shape,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: and it's very hard with no real motive to take it,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: why he would do that? So we try to rationalize it,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: We try to medicalize it. Oh, he's a psychopaths, you know. View.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: My view, though, and see is that he did have
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: a ship with those women, and it was not a
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: relationship that was based in reality. It was a vicarious
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: relationship that was garnered through looking into the windows late
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: at night, in watching these people enjoy life in a
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: manner that he could knocked and that's what precipitated his anger.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm convinced that when he got fired, that
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: that was the trigger point that led him to just
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: blow out because he's angry, and the only way to
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: satisfy that anger is what I mentioned earlier is aggression.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: And he has a deep well of that aggression in
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: him that causes him to act out in that way.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean he should be designated as a
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: psychopath and somehow forgiven. It doesn't mean that at all.
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  Speaker 1: What it means is we need to learn from this
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: horror and somehow metabolize it in a way that we
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: can prevent the people we love from being injured by
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: this sort of behavior in this animal and the sick
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: nature contell you something, del Carson Brian Coberger makes my
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: head hurt. I think it's because there is no reason why.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: And I can try to fit it together and put
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: the puzzle pieces together and analyze his phone data and
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: is this and is that the bottom line is based
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: on what we know right now, he did it. And
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he's a psychopath. I don't know
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: if he is criminally insane. I don't think so. And
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that's what's giving me a headache to think that a
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: seemingly normal person could do this, this horrible thing. Wayne
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Williams was the same. I mean, we never did. Wayne
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Williams was a raid, a hole that had been spoiled
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: rotten by his parents from day one, and they facilitated
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: what he did. He wasn't nowhere near normal, and of
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: course he wasn't somebody that you'd pick out of the
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: lineup and say that's a bad guy and we need
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: to put him in custody. That's the problem, Sydney. He did.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: When I talked to him, which I was the only
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: agent in the federal side that ever spoke with Wayne,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: I looked into his first name, like, he's your buddy.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: You're not launched about that Williams. One could not see
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: the evil in him, I'll just tell you, which always
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: kind of stunned me, because we knew he was responsible
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: for many, many deaths, and the violence that was committed
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: against them was not anything that was sexual in nature,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: which was another bizarre aspect of that particular case. I
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: just I hope that no one on Coburger's jury is
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: tricked into believing he has some sort of mental excuse
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: for what he did because it's very hard for many
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: people to accept some people are just evil, or let
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: me rephrase, some people do evil things for really no reason.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: It's really hard to take that in but we wait
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: as justice unfolds. Del Carson high profile lawyer Jacksonville, del
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Carson law dot com. Thank you, buddy,