Latest / Voices and Visions / Episode 9. The Business of Shaping Africa's Story | Mary Njoki

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Episode 9. The Business of Shaping Africa's Story | Mary Njoki · Voices and Visions

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is Voices and Visions.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Kenya is truly the land of manifestations.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: A podcast profiling Africa's business polls through the people shaping it.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think Kenya gets enough credit for how well it manages relationships.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Recorded in Nairobi, this season looks beyond headlines and funding rounds to understand how capital moves, how trust is built.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: As much as I have a lot of respect for what Starbucks has done for the coffee community in the world, able to survive here.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And how companies scale in real conditions.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is produced by Tutopasa Agency.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Silicon Savannah.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also really glad that we get to speak about a topic for the first time that I maybe also know something about.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been speaking with people who work in climate tech, capital structuring in Africa, and I didn't feel like the smart person in the room.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm really glad that we also are able to talk about a subject that I'm active in and you're also active in, which is the world of public relations, storytelling, media, and marketing.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm of course bringing my European lens.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you own the largest PR company in Kenya and already Africa or not?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Already?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how in how many countries are you active?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we say we are active in 15 countries.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but some of them we just have consultants on the ground who, when our clients require certain things in those markets, we are able to deliver.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we do strategies from Nairobi, Kenya.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then we are able to understand whether we are localizing the content for Ghana or for Namibia or for Nigeria.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Then we now get our local person to now go to the media to be able to pitch the content that we have already developed from Nairobi.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So Nairobi is HQ.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: How many people are active in the office there?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think we have uh depending, depends with the projects that we're doing.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: But currently we have around 20 people.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we keep building depending on the projects because because we can have many huge projects, and then we have we have consultants who are always waiting to help us with the project.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh this is not only public relations, you also do social media management.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: What what how what is the breadth of your services?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I like telling a story of how I started because I'm a software developer, trained software developer.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: So when I got into the PR media world, I always thought of how can tech um merge with PR and media.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So from the beginning, from the onset, we used to do a lot of digital media management.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: But then we discovered because of the global companies that we are working with, when they were coming to the African continent, they already had this uh uh um what do you call them?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: They already had um that being done in-house.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: So they were looking for us to do the traditional PR or create key messages for them.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we yes, we do, but we have found ourselves, especially because of our clients, work doing more of traditional PR, um, uh dealing more with the media, creating content, key messages, um, all that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you run specific projects for specific countries that they would then like to enter or penetrate?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh from your team.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you've probably then worked, so you've worked with big global brands.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: What uh what is it like working with big global brands and when they when they say, hey, we're we're coming, we're coming to Kenya, yeah, or we're going to Uganda.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: It it's I mean, the there's usually first uh a gap because they think they know everything, or they want to use the messages they've been using maybe in Europe or in America, yeah, in in the continent, and you have to keep now, or rather, or rather you have to be uh be able to convince them that you want to localize uh what they're trying to communicate uh locally, and you need to tell them that you understand the audience, you need to tell them um that whatever, I mean, whatever they're even selling might not make sense here.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to think even with the operations about different things.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we always have to be there, like understanding what are your business objectives and what are your PR objectives, and how can we now merge them and tell you this is a totally different uh market.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, most people communicate on mobile.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you have to think through all these nuances that are very unique for the African continent and not just the continent, now for the countries.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: For example, yeah, there's a time we were doing um uh uh a campaign in Kenya and Tanzania, and then we discovered that the the press releases that you write in Tanzania, you can't use the Swahili that is used in Kenya.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to get someone who is able to interpret and use the Swahili that is used in Tanzania.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the nuances um are very key uh if we really want to speak to the audiences.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, so those are some of the things that we've uh we've been able to um get our global brands or the the the companies that we are working with to consider.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if we look at the um, so one of the things that comes back in every conversation is uh it's not Africa, it's Kenya, and uh it's all heterogeneous markets.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some of the countries have over 70 spoken languages.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how do you reach these target audiences?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of global brands that then think, okay, for example, we're coming to East Africa, they think, oh, we can do that in English.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Easy.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how how important is it to actually localize to sometimes maybe three spoken languages?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's very important, uh, depending on the, of course, the audience that the global brand or you know the company is trying to reach out to.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: But then it's, I think the the most interesting thing that we faced was the Swahili aspect because in Kenya we speak Swahili.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: But then you realize the Swahili spoken in Kenya is totally different from the Swahili spoken in Tanzania.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, some say the Tanzanian one is a better one.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's a better one.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the Kenyan one is broken Swahili.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, and we are standing in Kenya and we are the ones running the campaign.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do we actually now engage our colleagues in Tanzania to make sure that this content is written in proper Swahili?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: So in East Africa, it's not very complicated because we can do English and Swahili.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: But there are different markets like um the francophone company uh countries where you know it's French and you know, um, there are different nuances.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: They are depending on the audience that you're trying to reach out to.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's and it's not even even the language, the the it's even how you speak to them.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the how, the words that you use.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's it's broken down into we are so diverse uh in many ways, and yeah, anyone who is communicating to anyone in Africa has to always think like that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you said a lot, uh you said earlier uh it's very mobile.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what do you mean by that?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for example, uh, I mean, of course, we've heard about mobile money in Kenya.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we you can find that a lady, or we call them mammambogas, the women who um work in the markets, they use their mobile phones to do everything, whether it's payments, get a loan.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And these mobile phones don't necessarily have uh internet, so they're not smartphones.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: So because of the introduction of probably like mobile money and different technologies around mobile money, everyone has like uh a phone that is not necessarily a smartphone in Kenya and across Africa, and there are stats that we can check out.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: So most people are that's why USSD um campaigns uh have become very key, NSMS campaigns where people get uh when you're doing a certain campaign, you get yeah, you get messages, um, you can, you know, you can get a service through a USSD um prompting.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: So text text-based marketing is very big.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember I was in the the Carrefour uh the other day and I saw that even the Carrefour had a WhatsApp group.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh they have an app.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have the app, but then they also have a WhatsApp group so you can keep up with anything that is uh local uh deals that you can get.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, wow, there's very there's very different means of exposure.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think uh a European would kind of say, Oh, let me go to the WhatsApp group of my supermarket, yeah, or um accept text-based marketing, like text based um is seen as intrusive for for us because we think, of course, because everyone is connected to the internet, if we want to be exposed to advertising, we'll take it from a social media platform.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and when we look at social media, maybe that's a good follow on this for this.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um how does the social media environment look like in in Kenya specifically?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: What are the top social medias that are being used?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: The same as everywhere else, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll I'll first go back to um the mobile, and I and I was trying to get the start.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's a time they say they only had 20 million smartphones in Kenya, and we are around now around 60 million, I think.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: People.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Are we getting to 60 million someone?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we have not yet gotten there when it comes to smartphones.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: So what you're describing is uh an urban setup um uh situation, like you know, Carfor you can get to WhatsApp.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: So apart from the person who has internet and has a smartphone, there's this other one who doesn't even have internet, is in the village, but still has a mobile phone where he accesses mobile money and accesses those campaigns on uh USST and bytext.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's quite that's something to note.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when it comes to um uh online platforms, um, I think recently because of the Gen Z movement, we were all surprised, or maybe it's me, and I'm like, am I growing old?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um we uh we found out that there are many numbers definitely on TikTok.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it goes back to you know, when we're looking at campaigns and what we are running, we think of is this a B2B?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So is it a B2C?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so am I looking to position my client on TikTok and they are B2B?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that would not make sense.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but over the years, tick uh Twitter or now X uh has been a very instrumental um platform in Kenya, and there are you know times where even CNN had to apologize to KOTs.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: They are called Kenyans on Twitter.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't remember what they put up a story and Kenyans went on Twitter and they're like, no, this is false.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is cool.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: I heard this yesterday.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Someone said to me, yeah, Kenyans will rally together if they think something is wrong.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: You will apologize.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, they will.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they rallied on Twitter and you know, and uh then Twitter and you know CNN had to apologize.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we've seen such over the years, but then there's also growth on Instagram, there's growth across, and from okay, so from the report we've just done about the state of PR in Africa and you know, digital fast campaigns and AI, we've discovered like um professionals are using more of LinkedIn, they're telling their stories on LinkedIn.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it's diverse, it's different.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh we'll keep watching to see, but it's generation, it's as per generation.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: So of course, TikTok's Instagram has more younger people uh than these other platforms.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed it when I started connecting to people on LinkedIn to be able to get this podcast off the ground that I see that there's um once you find a few key people in the sector, they're all very active.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: They share a lot of stories, they repost a lot, they tell people which events they're going through.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there's really this big visibility going on on personal branding uh in in the professional uh sector.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then when we look, so you said the Gen Z boom.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to reach a B2C customer, a young B2C customer, you're gonna have to go to Instagram, TikTok.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they know they are no longer on Facebook, you know.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: In the office, the other day I said I'm on Facebook and they looked at me like I was a dinosaur.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: They were like, I think you have to go now.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're getting too old for this place.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're gonna bring you back to school.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So But are there a lot of um uh influencers?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how does the influencer world look in Kenya?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite interesting, and uh, I'm glad we are having this conversation because we had this.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: So when we did an event called Africa PR Week last year, we had a session where we were speaking to influencers.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and one of the ladies was like, I was just a musician, and then people followed me, and apparently now they're calling me an influencer.
• 12:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And like, oh, like it was not intentional, so just by accident.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, an accidental thing.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not too bad.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: She was like, I was just a musician, and then suddenly the market has changed, and now people are calling me influencer and they're asking me to influence their brand.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know how to go about it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: So they are there must.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, she was like, I'd like to be trained on how you know I need to influence or make people buy a particular product.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that was quite interesting.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the others who have done it, of course, intentionally, um, who have grown in the age of you know influencer marketing that has come on.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, so we have we have a couple of those, um, and they have grown through most of them started from traditional media.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if you look at the people who we call influencers on digital platforms, some of them were had a show on TV, yeah, or were, you know, they were acting in a show.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: So there's already some type of celebrity status.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's it's it's almost a celebrity um series, but then uh there are some of them who have now uh come, especially through TikTok, who have you know intentionally created their own content, and you can see they are very deliberate to build that personal brand personal brand.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's that that's what I've seen.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And how does how does monetization of these personal brands look like now?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is that also maturing?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know in in the Netherlands, but also in France, there's a lot of influencer marketing agencies, right, that represent the the influencer, but also try to connect the brand that is trying to enter that market to the right influencer that then reaches that target audience.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you already have that as well?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it a lot of uh that that once you reach a certain amount of followers that as an influencer you're gonna have to start negotiating yourself?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Most of them negotiate for themselves.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because we are fragmented, like our market is not that massive.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we are not, we've not developed certain things.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let me talk about PR.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: For example, PR has just developed in the last 12 years.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: When you go to Europe or to north to North America, I mean, it goes back all the way.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: People used to understand uh the aspects about PR.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: For influencer marketing, it's also growing.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, I think South Africa and Nigeria are a bit ahead uh uh than Kenya.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um is that you think?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Nigeria, I think it's because of the is it uh the culture there and also the maybe then there they are many as well, but also think of an artist, there's an artist you know from Nigeria, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: From Europe.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know any artist from Kenya?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh where's Burner Boy from?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Nigeria.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: There we go.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: I actually wanted you to say Burner Boy.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: So he's he's he's grown from Nigeria.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they have many, uh, many of those, I don't remember the names, and then they have great following uh globally.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the way they started their culture, their art, their art and and culture um industry is well developed with the movies and the music.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: So with that, they got the they were able to uh command influence across the world.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: So with that, they have a big following.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: They they've developed their like they are working, they are like professional influencers, you know.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when you go to South Africa, the same thing.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you look at maybe someone like Trevor Noah, who came from South Africa and, you know, he's um in America and he's doing certain things, or different people from you know, South Africa that we can think about.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: When you come to Kenya, I mean we have different people who have come out from Kenya, but they are not like Lupita doesn't live in Kenya.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the influencers we have, they are not yet gotten to that level, so they negotiate for themselves.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it's either PR agencies who now step in to represent them, or there's this platform uh where uh I won't mention the platform where they are uh tiering different influencers and then they get them certain jobs.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: But then it's not that um massive uh if you look at the European market or the American market.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So is it considered a being an influencer is is can be a full-time job already in Kenya?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, now they they're getting there.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, yes.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: So because brands want to sell, companies want to sell.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: So they've discovered that the traditional way of selling is not working, the billboards, the the TV adverts.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: So they are going into influencers and they can tell.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the interesting thing about digital marketing definitely, you're able to see your stats, you're able to see it's measurable.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's measurable, yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the ROI is clear to you.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think PR is always a black box when it comes to measurability and effort.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you disagree, tell me.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear you can measure PR.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but not as like strongly as digital media stats.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can measure um the amount of times it has been picked up.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not that, you know, when you send it out, it will always be picked up, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I've had a lot of um in my previous roles, and but also now when I talk to people about whether you should get a PR partner, whether you should do PR, um, they try to negotiate with me or tell me uh, yeah, but then I'll get into the Wall Street Journal, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, bro, no.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like fat chance.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: But that's you know, there's not, it's not we'll help you, we do something, and there's an immediate result.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's not like I can post on an Instagram account and then it will be there.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, I posted it on Instagram because there's this gatekeeper, which is the journalist.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then of course, there's also the other thing that when you do get mentioned in that media, um, what media outlets do, of course, is they say this is our reach.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, reach reach is where did you get that number?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is that um and then of course, um if it's PR and not bot media, um, you don't really get reporting on how many people clicked on a link, for example, once you get the PR and so that's my opinion on why I think PR is not measurable, but I'd love to hear yours on why you think it is.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've got into a place where you can measure it because even the media houses um uh transitioning to do the to post your articles online.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: One so you're able to see the stats clearly, uh, whether it's who viewed the the story, but also, and it's a conventional observing, you can measure trust, you can measure um success of a campaign.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it can go to maybe I had one of my clients interviewed on Primetime, uh, this Tier 1 Media House.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like it changes their life completely.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: So um it can be measured.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think trust can be measured uh when you when you look through um them the the influence that comes after that because PR is supposed to shape narratives and shape probably policy.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and you know there are different campaigns that we can talk about where you look through the interesting thing about PR, you have to be consistent.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not a one-time thing.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it can be if your client got an interview on TR1 media on prime time.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, trust trust takes time.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you need multiple times of exposure.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you potentially have to measure different things than clicks, likes, shares.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I agree with you.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've also seen it, especially with B2B clients, that you know, we might not be able to measure whether what how the organic PR worked, yeah, but then the client comes back and says, Oh, I got 17 DMs, right?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: From people who read the article.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So PR can then definitely lead to an actual commercial opportunity.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we can no longer separate PR with digital media.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: So what we are doing on digital, it has to be strategically um developed from it has to be developed from um now the PR.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: An omnichannel kind of approach.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if we look at um um well, we'll say digital, but but I mean if I say the word traditional, I think I think more of news outlets, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: So whether online or uh do you have print media?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we do.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that big?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's still big in Kenya.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and even in other African countries.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and are there specific, is it like a uh wide media, like like a generic newspaper, or is it also like business dailies, uh politics dailies?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's there's business daily and then there's uh two or three of uh others that uh people read, but it comes from the traditional way of people, how people used to be so I know there are people even now, CEOs, uh, who when they get to their office in the morning, they have to get the physical copy and read it.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: They still read the physical I don't read the physical, I check the online, the digital version.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the uh how how does the media landscape look then in Kenya when it comes to media outlets?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So not socials, but um is it is it more kind of vertical so um or or horizontal?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a lot of do you have a lot of m digital media on subsectors as well, or are there a few big business dailies?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we have um is it I'll say five major um um media conglomerates, yeah, and each of them they have they have TV and they have a radio and they have a newspaper.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: But there's one specific one that has this newspaper that has been there for the last forever, forever, forever.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that particular one has influence and um because of how traditionally people would be would uh get all their news from that, you can see there's a generation in Kenya that still insists that they have to get the physical copy from them.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So um they are like maybe two top tier um.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: newspapers print newspaper but then this other one now added uh it's called daily nation and then they added a business daily uh okay so then it goes specific yeah yeah yeah and are there any uh pan African news outlets yes we have the East African okay but it's I think they publish it once a week okay it goes across east africa yeah okay and then when it comes to um news new media when it when it comes to like startup media so where uh tech companies get to communicate I think I heard about uh tech cabal coming in um I've been seeing a lot of them pop by there was also tech crunch but I think there's less coverage now yeah so if you speak to startups what what would you advise them in terms of so they are we actually call them I maybe I should call them news platform news platforms so yeah we would call them bloggers from where we would sit so for example we did uh this campaign with a tech company and each time we would uh even the client would be like I still so the client in Kenya uh or even global who are in Kenya they would still want to be in the newspaper the print one and then they'll be like okay these are bloggers that's how they would yeah we'd like to add uh these bloggers to um spread what we are trying to speak but I still want to be on Daily Nation on Business Daily I want to be featured tomorrow on Citizen TV business news um at the same time okay yeah you can do what you're doing on digital but these people will refer to them as bloggers.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So there's tech we've there are a couple of them yeah so I've had a relationship with most of them for a couple of years.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: I like that you call them bloggers like we call them a startup media oh we can it's a it's a very different naming yeah but if we look at um the media platforms that they're that there kind of are and also let's let's look perhaps at Kenyan representation international media so take it the other way around and talk a bit more about the narrative of Kenya do you think that um Kenya's ecosystem is accurately represented in Pan African and in global media we're getting there but then it's a digital media uh that is telling the story yeah so I'm always uh on because just going back to the conglomerates they all have their own agendas they all have uh certain messages that they want to communicate uh whether it's uh locally or from a global perspective everyone has an agenda some of some of it is um influenced by politics or politicians so what I've seen is the real I mean we have seen some news uh news media houses who have uh recently tried to call out whether it's a government or specific things across the continent ETC but what is telling the true story is a digital media and the the thing that I found interesting is when I saw a video from an influencer in Nigeria speaking about Kenya and they were like whoa these people in Kenya they are special they did this and this you know this is what is happening in Kenya Kenya must be the capital city of you know Africa so so there's a way now uh because of certain things that are happening on the digital platforms uh now digital is the one that is telling this the real story of Kenya but it's taken long because I don't think the people in the news media or rather the people in the traditional media let me call it that were telling the authentic story of who we are.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah and if we look at um uh from so we take away not take away PR but like of course one of the channels would be then uh PR but of course the baseline is um does every Kenyan business have a website or is it do they is it uh at some point you start with your Google Maps website and then I think by now we we we should they should I remember in 2009 I used to sell domains and websites and I used to go collecting cards from people and I'll be like if you have a Gmail and a hotmail this is unprofessional you need to get a domain and you know you need to create you know we we need to create a website for you.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: So over time I've not seen I mean each time I've seen cards or I've seen uh people um you know share their content uh most people where I have been let me say 90% business owners small business owners they have websites uh and this is because we are also a very we are techy um countries so I like I when I started out Glasshouse PR I created the website myself yeah so I bought the domain I went got free templates and I integrated it wasn't the best it was okay something to start with yeah it was it was good to start it was where I started up so yeah yeah yeah it's a very interesting thing to say and at the but when we look at website of course then there's this other tool right so the SEO yeah uh and now um a lot of GO as well so optimizing for the LLMs yeah um I was speaking to someone yesterday who told me that the um it's really hard for African websites to glow to show up in global search because the websites exist less long and then when they get mentioned in media of course domains in Africa have lower domain ratings than for example those big medias from the US or or from Europe.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is is SEO important here for for B2B businesses you'd say?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: It is um and interesting enough when I created the website that was the thing I was focusing on and because of my background I went looking at what are the meta tags, what are the keywords that I'm supposed to put on the website you know for optimization.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: And over time especially as our website has been optimized and it's because of uh also the addition of other uh conversation on other digital platforms yeah but I also remember when I started out there's a tool that was called Google.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why they removed it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah actually when you put your content on Google you'd actually be optimized on search engine on Google the search engine.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I found I found I was like this is like a secret I've discovered.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: So all our clients would come to us and when we're doing their campaigns would make sure we put their content on Google and they'll be optimized.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: So that was quite interesting.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: So do you think that's not there anymore.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Meta tags yeah they they removed Google Meta tags, keywords and then Google and then definitely uh content around Facebook, Twitter, all these other platforms.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: But then over time as I've been watching and I was thinking about GEO um and the other day I was like okay as PR people we need to understand how we are going to feed in the LLMs with content about our clients for brand trust so that um they're not just information.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah they have citations.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we are we are we are transitioning to that and I think that will just bring everyone to to to a level um because I I've never heard what you've said in terms of that when you're searching globally that some African websites are not um seen.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe I'm thinking of is it the domain maybe dot africas or dot.co.ke's are not seen but then dot coms and dots and dot nets are more optimized that could be the case but I think domain rating because there's more content potentially on those websites.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Which is then why they're seen as more trustworthy.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: More trustworthy it just it takes because there's so much information available it takes longer for uh a website to build up trust okay and to get a high domain rating.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think as well like in PR like what you said this focus on digital of course then if you get the link on that website the domain rating of the client also goes up yeah which increases their chance of being found by a searching customer.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if we look at uh how because in my social circle it's always you me and ChatGPT every conversation we have at least once or twice someone pulls out their phone and is like let me ask ChatGPT let me check.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is it the same?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes it's happening a lot and um where I was going is I think AI or ChatGPT and once we understand what you're supposed to do on the other end as PR people it's going to equalize everyone.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think it's going to be about the whether the website has a lot of code I'm wondering whether the a the GEO will search the same way the search engine was searching.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah so that's that's interesting.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's something we still have to uh figure out yeah yeah yeah they're developing too quickly yeah and if we look at uh so we're sitting in a podcast studio digital media development for clients so uh video uh audio podcasts is that something you would always recommend P2P clients to do yes yes yes okay so the adoption is very high the use of that sorry the use of of of podcasts consumption of it is very high not necessarily so um I don't I don't want to say Africa or Kenya we are more on uh we focus more on whether something is lifestyle and politics.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: So our podcast that is um more geared towards lifestyle conversation yeah we'll have more ratings.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: We have more ratings so we also have to think through with our clients okay do you want to go to this show that is you know politically you know um it's it's it's it talks about politics or you want to go to this show that talks about lifestyle.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a balance.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: The others are coming up um not as fast as as this other one uh but they're coming up especially the tech ones yeah I think I there's a there's a podcast that we actually asked our client to be on and they're going to be on it which is a tech um podcast again because we are also quite techie but then they are growing slowly it's not like the lifestyle ones and the politic political ones.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah yeah that's interesting because I think uh in in Europe already and and of course in the US like the business podcasts are doing very well yeah like startup VC podcasts investment podcasts um and you see more and more uh people choosing to build a podcast specifically on their niche yeah and really like subvertical yeah so even within the financial services communities there's now podcasts coming out about MA capital structuring international markets IPOs so basically there's a podcast for everything right now that we can find um but if we talk about um perhaps shifting a little bit away from you know uh how we use PR in in business um how about how you know because uh this uh social media of course has has helped us to rally around causes we find important um how and how much does this currently shape dialogue as well in in Kenya so grassroots initiatives that can come up through socials people coming together to be for or against uh a certain cause um does that already have this type of influence that then it can reach policy level yes um and the example I can give is the Gen Z movement last year we had this financial bill that the president was trying to implement in the country yeah but then it had it had not gone through the whole process where people had agreed this is the uh financial bill that should go forth.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so the generation Gen Z they started having conversations they started even uh interpreting or rather reading the financial bill interpreting it to people and they started doing um TikTok videos uh TikTok videos and the you know they're having conversations on this is not right, this is not right and they were highlighting different um aspects of the of the of the bill and it became a whole thing and they started saying they're going to demonstrate and uh it was so big to the point that the president came back and you know said he's not going to pass the the financial bill.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a conversation on digital I usually say this is a very amazing case study.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um and young people from across uh different parts of the continent or of of of the country whether they're speaking whatever language were just rising and you know asking and share asking what does this mean and then they would interpret even in their local languages like it became a whole communication campaign that I yeah I really love that campaign.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very nice one.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so what what is then the degree to which because I mean there's of course a very fine line with um being able to express yourself on social media and of course also protecting people against what happens on social media and also dangerous ways of self-expression uh instigating um violence, hate uh andreutatism behavior for example um do you know if there's any current policy developments as well within Kenya um to make sure that this is you know the people's well being is protected in that way as well from the exposure of what happens on on social media yes they have um because I saw some people suing other people because of that so they it's under the Data Protection Act.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yes so if we look at maybe the other way around so we spoke about African um european or US brands going into the um into the African markets um are we also seeing an increase of of African led brands wanting to influence within Europe and how would you collaborate?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes there are a couple of those though there are not many yeah um yeah so what so we usually now collaborate with with our colleagues in different markets in Europe or in the in in America to just um help us tell their stories on that side but they are they are very they are few.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah and from both sides if you look at for example the US business coming into Africa versus the African business going into the US or I can't actually even say that let's say the Kenyan business going into the Netherlands the Dutch business going into Kenya.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think they always get wrong?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we spoke about assuming again assuming that um the audience will receive you the same way so it's assumptions.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: Assumptions yeah so assumptions that the way I communicated in the other continent of the other country that's how I'll communicate to these people and the same products that I'm selling in this other continent they'll make sense to these other people yet people are in different places uh there's diversity that people don't think about yeah yeah you've also helped luxury brands enter into uh the Kenyan market yes uh how how does how does that work how does that look because I I of course did a few tours through them all yeah um and I saw that I was like oh wow you know this um there's like 50% is local representation and then 50% is upcoming yeah like big luxury brands do they have how is there market penetration in in Kenya?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean because those the the global brands came first obviously yeah and most people know the global brands for example um I'm thinking of a brand that we launched a couple of years ago and by the time we were launching everyone was like yeah I've been waiting for this shop to be in to come into the continent or into Kenya because each time I want to shop I usually have to go to South Africa and buy these products.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: So people already know some of these uh global brands or whether it's American brands or um european brands but also on the other side um this other market is growing uh because it's in the last 20 25 years that we've started creating our own products yeah so uh there are still uh there's still trusts that need to be built on the local ones uh and there's a clientele that will only go to the mall and buy a global brand because they think this is better quality than this other one.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Which is just PR which is PR because one that brand that we launched um they actually said they'd get their uh their ingredients from Mount Kenya so I'm like okay and if someone else is doing locally and they're getting their their their their ingredients from Mount Kenya I'll still come and say I want this other brand instead of the local one.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting it's about brand trust it's about um marketing and PR and the stories that we tell the assumption as well because actually that global brand used a local story they said we've been supporting women around Mount Kenya and we have we are also getting an ingredients from Mount Kenya and this is why this brand is key da da da da like they used the local story to position themselves in Kenya.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and it worked yeah it did ah yeah it did yeah I mean it requires a certain degree of of insertion yeah so they insert themselves and tried to localize it worked yeah so maybe um to to end it off where do you think the the PR uh what do you think are going to be like the two three biggest changes that Kenya and and the African continent are going to see when it comes to representation, PR marketing?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: What I've been pushing even in the last one month after especially after we did the report is the understanding that we need to have around AI and how AI is actually changing the industry.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: But also more so that the PR professionals practitioners need to understand that we cannot just live without understanding the use of tech.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: So as we looked at campaigns digital fast campaigns are becoming more popular and also now AI is coming into the picture and there's a whole conversation around algorithms and uh when we interviewed a couple of PR agencies across the continent they said they've noticed algorithm biased they've noticed um um that they had this campaign but because of the algorithm the people they were trying to reach out to never saw their um what the their materials their materials and their messages yeah so and and for me at that point was like we need to be engaged in tech we need to understand what is happening behind algorithms we need to uh be clear uh how do we are we the one shaping the narrative or the algorithm or are we trying really hard and then or the algorithm is shaping the narrative so those are the questions that I'm asking and I'm also pushing us to to get to a place where we understand one the implications of AI and digital fast campaigns but also how do we step in and either own our own infrastructure or um have the full understanding how we can um uh integrate media with tech.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because the other day I was reading an article and it was saying that uh in uh in the US the New York Times will when they print out the the the the the newspaper the the daily um it will have a particular um front page but when you're online depending on what you view it will have a totally different so it's already influenced so it's already influenced and I'm like okay that is quite interesting uh same thing with China daily yeah so I was like okay we need to be and we need to understand we need to get into the depth of it as PR and media practitioners and understand how tech is uh developing disrupting and then be part of the disruption or be part of creating the infrastructure.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah yeah I think the influence of the because you're you'd have to trust then that the New York Times does give that to those right people then.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Of course it's in their best interest to make people stay on their website for longer periods of time.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think yeah I've had this conversation I've seen a lot of things on LinkedIn as well pop by especially women creators uh get lower reach.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah yeah and that's that's that's also a thing and you said it as well there's there's algorithms are biased and then the question of course becomes uh the best way maybe in the future is also to um have your own media infrastructure yeah right so have your own well podcast um run your uh have have a good website um uh and and really focus on your personal uh authority your your reputation as an owner of the brand as well yeah to carry the the brand forward yeah okay um so unfortunately we have to wrap up but because of course this is a podcast about narratives and and shaping I I would like to ask you to um describe what Kenya isn't in one word what people might think it is and then tell us what Kenya is Kenya is not a struggling country Kenya is a light and Kenya is literally the land of manifestations the land of manifestations