Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (6/6)

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Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (6/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife for doing quicker.
0:37
Welcome back to a Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife, the Doctor Who
0:41
Commentary podcast presented by Joe Ford and an ever changing
0:47
lineup of guests, of whom I am the latest.
0:50
My name is Toby Haydock, and I like Doctor Who probably too
0:55
much to be healthy, but have somehow contrived to do so in a
0:59
way that is both productive and rewarding for me, if not for
1:03
you. And Joe very kindly lets me come
1:06
on and chat and sometimes bat off his double entendres that he
1:11
keeps trying to shove down my. Back to say, are you?
1:14
Excuse me? Yeah, I try.
1:17
I, I, I just, I'm always, you know, batting them away as you
1:22
try and shove them in places they shouldn't be.
1:27
But but but anyway, let's let's see what this sticky white
1:31
substance that's pouring, pouring through a hole is going
1:34
to do in episode 6 of the web. I was present, you know, at that
1:40
10 minute. Are you being served episode
1:45
that you put out on that strictly come hamster?
1:47
I mean that. Oh yeah, he basically did 1000
1:53
episodes worth of innuendo in 10 minutes.
1:57
Yeah, as well. Thanks.
2:01
Paul Chris Curtis, his very first hamster, didn't know what
2:05
he let himself into. He thought, you know, Toby's
2:08
coming on, this is going to be an intellectual treat, you know,
2:11
proper intelligent discourse. And he faced that in the 1st 10
2:15
minutes. Well, sorry about that.
2:17
He seemed to enjoy it. He.
2:19
Loved it. He loved it.
2:22
Why we're here? We are here to discuss episode 6
2:25
of the Web of Fear, which when I was a time top well and indeed
2:30
you was a missing episode of Doctor because of course there's
2:32
some Doctor Who fans now who for who who won't have been
2:37
cognizant that this was ever once beyond our grasp.
2:41
But yeah, this is the the the it's the last.
2:45
In fact, this is the essentially, if we if if we
2:48
imagine that they were returned in chronological order, a bit
2:51
like twins, isn't it? There is a slight Asia this.
2:53
So this is the last really episode to be returned, isn't
2:57
it? Or the last full episode?
3:01
What do you mean full story? Full episode was this.
3:07
Underwater menace come after this.
3:10
No, I think these came before, I think underwater Menace and.
3:14
Galaxy 4. Galaxy 4 came before this.
3:20
That's why we've had anything back since.
3:22
It's never going to be as good as this.
3:23
The next find. Yeah, so, so this this, yeah,
3:26
this was the last, this was the last hall because yeah, this was
3:29
in 2013, wasn't it? This was in the anniversary
3:33
because these were put on iPlayer the day I interviewed
3:37
Russell T Davies. So yeah, I was.
3:39
And that was definitely in Manchester because that was I
3:42
was in Cherile's flat, whereas I was definitely in London when
3:48
underwater menacing Galaxy 4. I remember seeing this pair at
3:52
the top of the iTunes TV and Film charts, something I never
3:57
thought I would see in a million years.
4:00
What a time to be alive. Yeah.
4:02
Did you watch in order when they came out?
4:03
Did you watch Enemy then Web or? No, I, I, I was dead.
4:08
No, because I've always been a massive supporter of enemy.
4:12
And when people will say, you know, on the strength of three,
4:15
Oh no, it's tedious in the corridor.
4:17
It's very boring. I've always loved the soundtrack
4:20
to it. And so I knew, I just knew it
4:22
was going to be something special.
4:24
And then I, I watched this the next day.
4:28
I think they were both at night, but I definitely watched Enemy
4:31
on the first night. Yeah.
4:34
Well, I, I think, I don't think that's, that's a popular choice.
4:37
I think most people probably watch this first.
4:40
Oh, I, I went in order. I wanted to do it in order, but
4:43
I did miss out the episodes I'd seen.
4:46
I I did. I did cheat in that regard.
4:48
Can I tell you about something that has been a particular joy
4:52
recently and that is finding younger fans who have come in
4:59
via the new series at various stages and, you know, and been
5:05
absolutely beguiled with modern Doctor Who.
5:09
And there's like a subset of those fans that have gone back,
5:13
explored the classic series and have declared the black and
5:18
white years their favorite period of Doctor Who.
5:21
And I don't know why, but hearing somebody that's just
5:24
brought up on a diet of modern television go, it's a weird kind
5:30
of confirmation bias and endorsement of this stuff that
5:33
just absolutely delights me. I'm so pleased there's people
5:37
out there that do that. Yeah.
5:39
Well, and I think they're probably, you know, the more
5:41
interesting young people because it's easy to be interested in
5:46
stuff that exists within the cultural landscape that you
5:51
exist within and that is tailored towards you and that
5:53
has been dictated to by the trends and tastes of you and
5:57
your peers. But to but to find something
6:02
that you enjoy that is outside of that and that you have to go
6:06
and look for one. I think good for them.
6:10
I, you know, I admire them for, for looking outside of their
6:13
comfort zone. But but, but also too, how
6:16
exciting to be them. I can imagine that, that, you
6:19
know, I think, I think part of what one tries to do to stop
6:22
oneself getting jaded and cynical is to reconnect with
6:25
one's younger self because you remember a time when you weren't
6:32
cynical and when things could genuinely be exciting, which and
6:35
things aren't as exciting. I love Christmas and I really
6:38
try and make Christmas Christmassy and and try and
6:41
recapture something of what it was like as a as a kid, But it's
6:44
it's never the same. But I do try and I think it
6:47
beholds us to try, but but you can't actually recapture that.
6:52
And I'm not, and that's, that's, I'm talking there about
6:54
childhood innocence, but I remember being, being, you know,
6:58
18/19/20 and, and life because you don't, because it's anything
7:04
can be possible. And you feel like, and the world
7:06
is kind of tailored to you a little bit because young people
7:09
create the tone of the world really.
7:11
And if they're not those, the, the things that aren't created
7:14
by young people, young people tend to rebel against.
7:17
So you're at least you're at least part of the conversation.
7:19
And actually, you might even feel like you're sweeping away
7:23
the, you're, you're changing the conversation and it's being
7:25
changed to a discussion or, or, or a manner of speaking that
7:29
you're going to be having and it, and it, so it feels like
7:33
you're inheriting the world. Whereas when you get to 50, you
7:37
know, you, you know, you know, you've probably got 35 years of
7:40
being mediocre and irrelevant. And how the hell are you going
7:42
to spend that time? Which is why middle-aged people
7:44
are so angry. Which is why I.
7:46
Think it's so important? Doctor Who, mostly.
7:48
Well, which is why I think it's so important to try and connect
7:50
with your younger self, but also not to John Gory, the director
7:53
of the Keys of Marinus. When I, you know, quite often
7:56
when I have interviewed people, I've always sort of gone in with
7:59
her. Oh, and things aren't as good as
8:01
they used to be, are they? And oh, they don't do things.
8:03
And oh, isn't it? And, and he's, and he said, he
8:07
said, I never try. I never complain about the way
8:10
things are now. And he and I know he'd had an
8:12
experience on, on EastEnders when it suddenly became apparent
8:15
to him that directing television in the way that he did wasn't
8:19
what people did anymore. But he said it's, you know, he
8:22
said that is the natural order of things.
8:23
That is the right way. And I never, in fact, funny
8:28
enough, though I did, I have interviewed him more recently.
8:30
So this was, this was 12 years ago or 13 years ago.
8:33
I interviewed him late last year and I, and I, and I mentioned
8:37
how I'm always quoting him for going.
8:39
And, and you were the one who always said no, no, no, you
8:41
should never complain about new things.
8:43
But because it's the way that he said, oh, he said, I'm not sure
8:45
I'd say that now, but but but that to me that he's now 92.
8:51
So I think that's fair. But also look around you now,
8:54
there's plenty to. Complain about to not spend your
8:58
middle age because it's a cliche to spend your middle age going
9:03
young. People are stupid.
9:04
Everything modern is crap. Nothing's as good as it used to
9:08
be. I equally am furious, and
9:11
particularly with the media, particularly if the BBC do it of
9:14
this old. Let's look back at old stuff and
9:17
judge it incorrectly and out of context.
9:19
So, so, so. Everyone's guilty, but perhaps
9:23
in different directions. But I, but I, I think young
9:28
people looking at the old world and wanting to move on from it
9:32
is a sort of sign of confidence. If you like it's, and it's how
9:35
the world changes. It's how the world turns.
9:38
Old people looking back and going, we need to get that back.
9:43
Is, is a way, is a way of trying, I think, to stay
9:47
relevant to a world that's not being created for you anymore.
9:49
And you're a long time middle-aged.
9:51
I'm trying to write a show about this at the moment.
9:54
How do you spend the rest of your life when you aren't
10:00
actually that relevant because the world is moving forward and
10:03
leaving you behind? How do you spend that and not be
10:05
miserable because it's such a temptation looking?
10:08
Back, mostly. Yeah, well, and to go I cut, you
10:11
know, I'm, I'm, I am a bit of an old lefty liberal so.
10:15
But I can understand why men of particularly men of my age, I
10:19
think see everything changing and go, oh, God, the world's
10:22
gone woke. Now.
10:22
I, I'm not one of those, although I, but I, but I feel
10:27
the pull of it. I, I, I, I'm not going to say I
10:30
don't understand where that's going.
10:33
It's a battle to say to, to go, yeah, but but that's what they
10:37
were doing in the 60s. That's what that's what the
10:40
generation who, who, who the 60s swept side.
10:44
And we know that the 60s did all sorts of progressive and
10:46
wonderful things. So don't then become the cliche,
10:50
even though I think life makes you that.
10:53
And I think being in touch with your childhood and trying to
10:56
reconnect to that sense of wonder and nothing does it for
10:59
me like Doctor Who that that does connect me with, with that,
11:07
that sort of the sense that something could be awe
11:09
inspiring. The, the, the, the, the sense
11:12
that just seeing a picture or a clip or a captured moment when
11:16
those New Zealand clips came back and we've got, you know,
11:19
what was it? 7 seconds of the web of fear.
11:22
My God, I poured over every frame.
11:25
And now, of course, they've been eaten up by the rest of the
11:27
episodes that they're, that they're in and they're not, you
11:30
know, they're, they're, they're now completely irrelevant.
11:32
But I remember when that was all we had them, when that came
11:35
through and ah for. Me.
11:37
It was like, remember those coffee table books?
11:39
The 60's, the 70s and the 80s? Yes.
11:41
And I barely watched any Doctor Who at that point.
11:44
But I have those books and I just would touch the pictures,
11:48
you know, like it's a bloody 2D picture.
11:52
I'd be just touching it. Like taking it all in.
11:55
Every single part of it. God, it was just magic.
11:58
Like a window to something I didn't think I would ever see.
12:02
Yeah, I don't know if I'll ever recapture that.
12:04
But then I did when these came back and I have that that
12:08
excitement. It's so weird because it's
12:10
completely different to watching a new series episode, which is
12:13
being made for me now. When these came back, it was
12:19
like experiencing all of those old Doctor Who's for the first
12:23
time again. That's what I want again, that
12:25
first night feeling. That's why that's the enticement
12:29
with these potential found missing episodes of Doctor Who
12:32
now, as I'll have that feeling again just a couple of times.
12:36
If they come back to the archives, man, there's a poll.
12:40
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
12:41
And you, you kind of, I mean, I've funnily enough, and I
12:43
remember when I was watching these parties and it happened
12:45
with Tomb as well. Actually the end of episode 2 of
12:48
two my, I think I went up and made a cup of coffee because I
12:51
realized I was already just about to cross halfway, the
12:54
halfway point of, of what was left of new stuff and that this
12:57
would, that this would never happen again, you know, and, and
13:01
it was a bit the same. I I think I slightly regretted
13:05
having gorged enemy and web all in one go and that that I do
13:10
admire people who might be able to eke it out further.
13:13
But you know, if, if, if anything comes back, I'm not
13:18
going to hang about, you know, I know.
13:20
People that have held back, you know, stories that have existed,
13:23
that have always existed, but held back one story or one
13:27
episode. So there's always something new
13:29
to expect. It's usually something like
13:30
Underworld or something like that.
13:32
You know that they're not in a hurry to watch, but there's
13:34
always something new. You know, there's always that
13:37
possibility of having that first night feed again.
13:39
But swinging it back to to those younger people, God, I sound so
13:45
old. I remember asking each of them,
13:50
well, what is it and what is it about black and white Doctor
13:52
Who? And I can still remember because
13:54
it's three different people. I'm thinking of the three
13:57
different answers and one of them said it's just magic.
14:00
There's a feeling of magic about 60s Doctor Who.
14:04
One of them said it's the period of Doctor Who which feels as if
14:08
it's got the most infinite possibilities, and one of them
14:13
said it's the weirdest Doctor Who ever was.
14:18
And also God, All of those things are true.
14:20
And I think that's an argument. There is an argument to say that
14:24
black and white Doctor Who is the best it ever was.
14:28
In many ways I. I think for me it's my but
14:31
again, I I can never divorce it from the missing episodes, but
14:35
but for me it is the most intriguing.
14:37
It's the one I'm captivated by the most.
14:40
But again, I think it's possibly because because there, there has
14:44
to be piercing together, there has to be archaeology, there has
14:47
to be archival work, There has to be, there's also the drama
14:51
of, of it being lost. And so, you know, so, so, so, so
14:56
some of it we have to imagine, some of it we have to piece
14:58
together. And of course, we're sad about
15:00
it as well. And because of course, the, I
15:03
mean, season 3, for example, not only are those episodes missing,
15:06
but that was also the period they decided not to take tennis
15:08
snaps too. So, so, but but then again,
15:11
there was a time when we didn't know what telesnaps.
15:13
Well, I remember, yeah, I remember getting Doctor Who the
15:15
early years and you you get to the Backpage and suddenly
15:18
there's these off screen stills for episode 1 of Paradise and
15:21
they don't explain what they are or how they've got them.
15:24
What the bloody hell are those pictures?
15:28
That's the other thing is, is that, you know, we've had it all
15:31
come back piece meal. So again, the kids, the kids
15:35
today have it all at their disposal.
15:37
But I'm I would much rather have had it my way because the amount
15:42
of first nights, if you like, the amount of morsels that the
15:47
the the foreplay has been fantastic.
15:53
I mean, it's been, it's been positively Tantric, Joe.
15:57
Has the, you know, the eventual experience been satisfying in
16:03
every occasion? I, well, I'd I'd been told
16:11
Galaxy 4/3 was was a was a was a bit of a mess.
16:16
I watched that again the other day actually and and the 1st
16:18
3/4. Charms the first 3.
16:20
Or 4 minutes where they hide behind the control panel.
16:23
All of that are are pretty shocking, but stranger.
16:28
Spaceship design known to mankind.
16:30
I mean, it's open to space. It's.
16:33
Well, I think isn't that explained that that's something
16:36
to do with that's their mind working as anyway, but it's no
16:39
it's odd, but but I but what I was looking for for Galaxy 4/3
16:45
was that that Marga monologue, which I'd I'd remember would
16:48
have been really good in the soundtrack.
16:49
So I was bit and that didn't let us down.
16:51
And I actually think some of some of the placing of the drive
16:54
and stuff. But but I'd I'd been warned that
16:56
wasn't great before I saw it and it it wasn't, but it still had
17:06
plenty in it that was thrilling. You know, we saw a reel, for
17:09
Christ's sake. So no, I was.
17:14
My, my biggest disappointment. Oh no, I don't want you to leave
17:16
the call. It was the Faceless Ones, the
17:20
two episodes of the Faceless Ones when I first saw them and I
17:23
was just a bit bored. And I've never really lost that.
17:28
Interesting because. My first I've I've talked of
17:33
this, this VHS before. My first bootleg VHS was the
17:37
orphaned trout episodes. So underwater menace 3 was first
17:41
on it. And that to me will always seem
17:44
like feel like the Dead Sea Scrolls dusted off.
17:46
I know it's a crap bee movie and and I know some people love it
17:49
because it's a crap bee movie, but but for me it's it's the
17:54
dusted down ancient artifact that is just amazing that I can
17:59
say. But it's amazing how blase we
18:01
get because then it was the faceless ones one and the
18:04
faceless ones 1. I had the cut version because I
18:07
don't know if you know this, we have two copies of the faceless
18:10
ones one. So the version that was
18:12
circulating or, or that ended up being the bootleg that I got,
18:17
none of the shots of the faceless with the the comedian's
18:20
hands are in it. And when Inspector Gascoyne gets
18:23
shot, basically the guy, Spencer points the gun at him and then
18:27
he's on the floor. And I remember my brother coming
18:29
in at that point and going, well, that wasn't very good, was
18:31
it? Because we didn't we didn't know
18:34
there would. I thought it was maybe a weird
18:35
choice or things. It was the 60's.
18:37
The pastor was done. The things were done in a
18:39
different way. And because it doesn't have
18:40
music, it has those weird sort of sound effects as well.
18:43
It seemed like a strange, almost alienating sort of thing.
18:46
So actually the the full faceless ones one was one of the
18:51
last episodes I saw in full because I didn't see it until it
18:54
came out on VHS. And I have to say it's a
18:57
different experience with with the stuff inserted back in it.
19:02
So that gave it another lease of life for me.
19:04
But on that bootleg, it was funny because I I'd done episode
19:07
3 of Underwater Medicine and was mesmerised.
19:12
And then come come the end of the episode, 1 of the Faceless
19:17
Ones was like, well, that was a bit, that was a bit boring.
19:20
I was only two episodes into this Brave New world.
19:24
But then I remember Faceless Ones 3 coming back because I'm
19:30
old and I was at a Doctor Who convention, not the one where it
19:34
was unveiled, but it was shown at A at a panopticon not long
19:42
after it had come back. And that was thrilling.
19:47
And that had bits missing, but for different reasons that they
19:50
haven't been cut out, they've been broken.
19:53
So Faceless Ones 3 was always a bit of a step up from Faceless
19:56
Ones one because more happens in it, but but it also hasn't got a
20:00
faceless one in it. Always loved web one.
20:04
But the, the, the single episode that I found the most exciting,
20:10
the most beginning was Evil 2. Just when it opened, it was that
20:17
I was like, oh man, I was in it straight away.
20:20
And just the fluidic camera work, the sets, just the the
20:24
score, it was just everything about it.
20:27
I just wanted more. Well, again.
20:29
I saw that at that same convention because the faceless
20:33
ones 3 and evil two were found at the same same time.
20:37
Yes, and and you know, evil 2 is not an amazing episode on paper.
20:41
It's the it's the story being set up.
20:43
But it was what I mentioned last episode is that the evil is more
20:47
than a sum of its parts. And in fact, some of its parts
20:50
are a bit wonky, but actually, particularly in the sort of
20:53
plotting of it. But it's done so well.
20:56
That music is incredible. But just as the scene when the
20:59
Dalek pops out and goes Doctor now, do you understand again,
21:03
it's got such a sense of occasion from the way it's shot,
21:06
from the way it's scored to Trouton's acting is that
21:10
everybody's saying, oh, this is this is more than just this
21:13
week's bit of daring do. This is something really
21:16
important is going on here. I've got my.
21:18
Sums from Toby that is directed by the same person that directed
21:22
Galaxy 4 episode 3, isn't it? I think he'd.
21:24
Learnt a bit he might have. Done, Yeah.
21:29
But I mean, Galaxy 4/3 was I think his first if it's his
21:32
first Doctor. But I, I, I think it's, if it's
21:35
not his first directing job, it's certainly probably his
21:38
second or third after a couple of episodes of Compact or
21:40
something and he took it 10th. Planet though, because I and he
21:44
took it. Over late as well.
21:45
And there's some shots in the 10th planet where he's pulling a
21:49
camera back and back and taking in whole rooms and reactions and
21:53
yeah, a very skilled man. No, he's an.
21:55
Excellent director and actually some of the some of the the way
21:58
that he he he positions the drive ins in the drive in
22:01
spaceship. He hasn't got much to play with
22:02
in Galaxy 4 and he does that very well.
22:05
But but yeah, having to have the Doctor and Vicky Hyde from a
22:08
chumbley in in the beginning of episode 3 is tough.
22:12
But also bear in mind he wasn't there at the very beginning
22:16
'cause it was supposed to be directed by Mervin Pinfield and
22:18
he took over from Mervin Pinfield, so he would have
22:20
inherited some of his did Pinfield.
22:22
Goat. Yeah, I'm not doing that.
22:24
Good grief. Well, he fell ill and and it was
22:28
his. It was his last.
22:29
It was the last thing he ever did professionally.
22:31
Sorry, I regret. Well, Mervin.
22:33
Yeah. So so in fact it killed.
22:36
Him, it's more. Heart though, so I will never
22:38
regret that you know when he's at that door, that very flimsy
22:42
door going oh child. Oh, it's still great and I
22:46
definitely. I actually prefer because I'd
22:47
I'd got the soundtrack and it's not, it's not, it's not great,
22:51
you know. And, and I'd been brought up to
22:52
think that Galaxy 4 was this lovely fable because Jeremy
22:56
Bentham loved it and wrote about it very sweetly.
22:58
A much loved story at the time. It's Jeremy.
23:00
You know you've done a lot fan myths, right?
23:04
And, and, and the book had not been great and the soundtrack's
23:06
a bit sparse because there aren't many characters.
23:08
And so, but actually seeing it enhanced it for me.
23:14
Of course, it's always going to really I, I and I love the fact
23:17
that we've got, we've got a bit of, we've got a bit of Galaxy 4.
23:20
We've got quite a lot of it actually because we've got real
23:21
actually one in there. As well, Haven't we?
23:23
Those ghastly real faces? They're wonderful, yeah.
23:26
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to see them get Slytherin along the planet
23:30
in episode 4, though. I think it might look a bit
23:34
like, you know, the the Rutan slivering along in Horror of
23:38
Fame rock. Well, except.
23:40
They're, they're, they are people that I think they look a
23:43
bit more like the Shrivens Isles probably.
23:46
You know, you and me could probably talk about missing
23:48
episodes of Doctor Who until the cows come home.
23:52
Probably because I don't know if we should go in and watch The
23:55
Web of Fear. We've got to talk about an.
23:57
Existing which is not missing at all.
24:01
Would you want to count us in? OK, well, everybody, it's time.
24:05
It's time to watch the most recent again, presuming they
24:10
were returned in chronological order.
24:13
The most recently returned episode of Doctor Who and oh,
24:18
let's pray that that sentence I've just uttered will soon be
24:22
out of date place in in 321 play.
24:31
You know. It would be.
24:31
Very, very ironic. You know, if the the
24:33
announcement came out whilst we were doing this recording that.
24:37
Is what they call a first world problem.
24:40
That's a problem I would like to have.
24:43
We would know if your phone would.
24:44
Be pinging off. As we speak, I know no more than
24:51
you or anybody else. I, I hear, I hear the rumours,
24:55
but I'm not a party to anything. But I, I, I, I feel, I feel
25:03
calmly confident that that this will not be the last, which is
25:08
nice. But I think there's a really
25:10
good feeling here at the end of that episode, in the beginning
25:14
of this one, that the story is coming to a climax.
25:17
Everything is now desperate. This is a This is a last pitch
25:22
attempt to stay alive. What shocks me about 6 Toby is
25:27
when Chorley turns up because I just forget completely about
25:31
Chorley. He's in one and one and two or
25:33
just one. No, he's in.
25:36
He's in. He's in more than he's in. 1-2
25:38
and three, isn't he? And then he disappears for 4:00
25:40
and 5:00. And that's just because we're
25:42
supposed to think he's behind the scenes, you know, up to no
25:45
good. And he comes in and what I'd
25:47
really love is that performance. He's so panicked, isn't he?
25:50
He's so desperate, yes. Yes, John Rollison, who was
25:54
still around when this came back actually, but we, we, we never
25:59
we, we, we he was poorly. I think he we, we didn't get
26:02
hold of him. He did write to somebody I know
26:05
and and actually it said he would he would be interested in
26:08
doing a who's round, but you know, but I never heard back
26:11
from him. But I think it's health have
26:13
been up and down a serious. Question here now, did somebody
26:17
genuinely, and I know it's an off quoted thing, but sit there
26:20
from the London Underground going, well, how the bloody hell
26:23
did they get down there without us knowing about it?
26:26
You know, did they go down in the in the middle of the night
26:29
with their cameras? Yes.
26:32
I don't know. And I don't know how much of it
26:35
is a, is an urban myth. And it's a, it's one of those
26:38
stories you don't want to investigate too deeply, isn't
26:40
it? Because sometimes, yeah, it's
26:43
not often. Someone saying Doctor Who looks
26:46
so convincing, we thought that they'd gone there.
26:49
But I mean it, it does. So you could see what, and of
26:52
course, you know, with a, with a, an eye that is used to seeing
26:57
less sophistication than we are today.
27:00
And, and obviously not knowing quite how television and
27:05
everything works. I mean, you know, I, I,
27:08
sometimes it's, it's hard to forget sometimes because, you
27:13
know, I've worked in my career all my life and Ditto my
27:17
partner. That, that, that, that people
27:22
who, who don't work in, within television don't actually get
27:27
quite how television works. And indeed, in some cases think
27:31
it's real or no, it's not real, but somehow still part of their
27:35
brain acts as if it is real and they don't know how to react to
27:40
it in the way that people who are well versed in it's
27:43
insurance and outs do. So one should never
27:46
underestimate the the the I hate the phrase, but the the general
27:50
public's reaction to things that they see on the television
27:54
screen. Because sometimes it does defy
27:56
logic, yes. Excuse me, I've got to make a
27:59
call. Hello.
28:00
Hello. Yes.
28:00
Is that the the Manchester tram department?
28:04
Are they still working? Because I saw one crash into
28:06
Coronation Street the other day. I mean, come on now.
28:10
Yes. Yeah, or that is.
28:14
Real, isn't it? That story?
28:16
Yeah. And.
28:17
And and and the actors being told, you know, you want to
28:21
watch out your you know, I saw your guy snogging.
28:24
Somebody shouldn't be snogging the other night.
28:26
It's like, what what are you thinking?
28:30
Do you? Think you're what you're looking
28:32
for, A window. It's bizarre and it and it
28:35
happens. I absolutely believe that it
28:39
does. Did you see Trout a second ago?
28:44
Right, Yeah, when he was speaking to the Yeti and giving
28:47
him instructions. But the whole time he's looking
28:50
absolutely terrified, as if The thing is going to strike him at
28:53
any minute. Yes.
28:55
And I think that's, it's one of the, I can't remember who said,
28:57
but a few people have said a few.
28:58
And I know lots of actors like Trout and that that, that
29:01
because of that childlike thing that he doesn't, because he's
29:04
quite often surprised that he's been successful.
29:07
It does make him vulnerable, I love that.
29:10
About him and that he just allows himself to be scared.
29:13
How many doctors allowed himself to be scared like that?
29:16
Not many. And it helps with the
29:17
storytelling. It helps with the sense of
29:19
danger that the Doctor is is somebody that who who flirts
29:24
with disaster at every turn, which which I think really
29:28
involves you in the adventure and and UPS the stakes also.
29:31
Totally hilarious. You know, when he's there sort
29:34
of fanning himself in the Mind Robber episode 1 and Jamie's
29:38
like, look over there and it's like, Oh my word.
29:41
You know, it's absolutely wonderful.
29:43
It is wonderful. But you can't.
29:45
Imagine Pertway doing that. Can you?
29:47
No. I I I do like the way that he
29:51
does this if you're. Looking for your friend?
29:55
He went that way. Oh, I'm.
30:00
A I'm a driver. I love the way he mimes what a
30:03
driver is. So did you say there was a?
30:06
Possibility that he could come back.
30:08
Well, I I remember reading Stereotypical I.
30:11
Remember reading an interview with Mervyn Haseman in Doctor
30:15
Who magazine. Who said?
30:17
Who said and that because they were obviously a sort of party
30:21
to the the development of unit coming back or whatever until
30:26
until they until they left. So.
30:29
So I don't know how much thought was given to it because
30:32
obviously they were off the show coming, the Dominators, but
30:36
that, yeah, they had had they had had the idea that that Evans
30:43
should, should come back and that it was, it was vetoed.
30:47
I, I suspect it would because and I, I wonder if that was
30:50
during the talks about bringing Lethbridge Stewart back, because
30:53
they must have obviously agreed to that and they must have been
30:56
paid for that. But I, I don't know if that's,
31:00
you know, I don't know how much of that story is just like, oh,
31:03
that'll be a nice idea. No to whether it was, you know,
31:07
ever properly thought out. But it is interesting that Derek
31:09
Pollock does appear in Doctor Who and the Silurians in a
31:11
different role. So yes.
31:15
So I don't know how much serious thought was given to it, but it
31:17
was certainly something that Mervyn Haisman mentioned had
31:20
been an intention that had been kiboshed by the fact that they
31:24
thought it would be. It would be mean to the Welsh,
31:27
but I I can't. I'm not sure how you could
31:29
insert a cowardly drive into every unit story, so you'd have
31:33
to give. Him a role wouldn't you you know
31:36
a Benton sort of role or something He could be the T boy.
31:39
I guess there's usually AT boy in most bent.
31:42
Yeah, I. I think actually think it would
31:44
be a bit match. He works in this story because
31:46
he's a he's an antidote to the the the the otherwise fairly
31:51
sort of quite quite a Massie atmosphere to proceedings.
31:54
He he he's he's useful for for a slightly more child friendly
31:57
show. So this is our new set, isn't it
31:59
at the time like? Gorgeous.
32:01
I mean, I'm not sure what that Roman column is at the back
32:03
there, but stock. But look, the rarest of things.
32:09
Shooting up and seeing a ceiling, seeing a.
32:12
Ceiling. Yeah, that's really.
32:13
Rare, yeah. And doesn't it get much whiter
32:17
in a bit as well? It is.
32:19
Right. But he does pump in a lot of dry
32:20
ice, so it does have atmosphere. Yeah, but I remember.
32:24
This being a, a, a, a real sort of change of environment, it
32:27
gives the, gives this final episode a totally different vibe
32:30
because we're, because we're in a, in a, in a completely new
32:33
location, which again, for a story where everyone's a soldier
32:37
and it's, you know, every tunnel is the same set, redress,
32:41
etcetera, etcetera. I think it, I think it's just a
32:43
subtle way of helping with the storytelling and it.
32:45
Is rare right in a Doctor Who to have a brand new like a big set
32:52
in the last episode? Yeah.
32:54
Yeah, because, yeah, because you you really want to make use of
32:57
of what you've had for the for the rest of the time I was just.
33:00
Thinking about Arnold, right? And just how clever.
33:04
It's almost Christie like. How clever.
33:07
So he's established as this sort of stalwart character that we
33:10
absolutely can trust, that he's willing to put himself in
33:13
danger, that he cares for the soldiers around him.
33:15
So he's a character we instantly like.
33:19
Then he's put in that situation of extreme peril and apparently
33:22
killed. So suddenly all suspicion is off
33:25
him because we think he's dead. Vanishes for what, a whole
33:28
episode? And then, oh, maybe it's 1/2 an
33:32
episode, then comes back in a terrible state, looking like
33:35
he's been absolutely beaten up and now he's just slipped
33:38
invisibly into a group of characters waiting for that
33:42
moment in Episode 6 where he can sort of step out and make his
33:46
move well. One, we've just seen him, you
33:48
know, break away. So it seems like he's, you know,
33:52
he's being the brave one there. You know, he's when when there
33:55
was a distraction and he runs off, it's like, oh, is he going
33:58
to be the one that comes to save the day?
34:01
And we've got this mysterious character hanging around who
34:04
we've not seen yet. But probably the the perceptive
34:08
viewer would have gone. I think that's Harold Chorley,
34:10
certainly not a soldier. So we're being set up to think
34:13
that the reveal, of course, will be surely.
34:15
It was him. It was a long one, yeah.
34:18
And in fact, when they meet here, isn't it, it's Arnold sort
34:22
of grabs him by the ear and sort of says, right, come on, Sonny,
34:26
I'm taking you in. So even the dynamic here, you
34:29
know, leads us to think what we've already assumed.
34:33
And a Sergeant, you see, is a very important role because a
34:37
Sergeant is one of the men a Sergeant comes up from, from
34:41
from being a private and will not ascend.
34:44
He will not, even though many Doctor Who writers of books
34:47
don't understand this, It's it's very unusual for a a, a, an NCO
34:52
to, to, to rise any higher. I ended up.
34:56
Selling cars eventually. Yeah, and, and, and, you know,
35:00
the officer class, so the colonels and the majors and
35:03
everything would start off as a, as a second Lieutenant and go
35:06
up, go up that way. So, so you have, you know, a
35:09
private, Lance Corporal, corporal Sergeant, and then
35:11
various variations of Sergeant, Sergeant majors.
35:14
But they're the ones who are kind of of the men, do you know
35:18
what I mean? And they're the sort of conduit
35:20
between the men and the officers.
35:23
So although a, a, a, a Lieutenant outranks a Sergeant,
35:27
a Sergeant will inevitably be more experienced.
35:31
So he's like the sort of salty sea dog.
35:33
He's like the person who's got experience, but it's from
35:37
obviously from a, from a different class and it's from
35:39
working class stock. So is, is one of the men.
35:41
So he's a conduit between the ranks and the the rank and file
35:46
soldier and the officers, but he's also probably more
35:50
experienced than most of the officers and officers would
35:53
defer, not in terms of necessarily tactics, but in
35:57
terms of practicalities, but sometimes in terms of tactics
36:00
and experience to the Sergeant. So he's a really importantly
36:03
placed character, the Sergeant and sort of.
36:07
Quiet dignity to his performance as well Where?
36:11
Where there's no. Hint.
36:12
There's no hint at all that he could potentially be.
36:16
Whereas, you know, sufficient. I suppose that's the character
36:20
you should look at, really, the ones that they're not pointing
36:22
their fingers at. And I think if you're used to
36:25
this sort of show, you might expect an RP sort of character
36:30
to be the monster voice. I don't think you'd expect the
36:33
sort of bluff northern soldier to make that leap.
36:36
So I think it is a good piece of sleight of hand we don't do.
36:41
Whodunits very often on Doctor Who anyway, do we you know,
36:44
usually it's, it's a monster, you know, Or if it's a villain,
36:48
it's a very apparent villain. What was the last one before
36:51
this? The rescue with a suspect pool
36:53
of 1. Yeah, I love and I love,
36:56
although in happy times places, Andrew Ellard, who's a very good
37:00
script man, did did make the point that he didn't think the
37:04
rescue was a whodunit. It's a different sort of story.
37:06
But anyway. But yes, the reveal, the the
37:08
reveal that it is Bennett is still is still flourished as an
37:11
important part of the story. And of course, the the the
37:13
famous who done it for for for Doctor Who is is is the robots
37:18
of death, which is is given away by a pair of trousers in episode
37:22
2. If you're you're watching really
37:24
famous. Who done it in Doctor Who?
37:26
Oh well, as far as I'm concerned, it's terror of the
37:27
verb. Terror of the Verbos, where
37:29
everyone done it, they're doing. Murder on the Orient Express.
37:33
You know I always did it. Oh sorry to anyone that hasn't
37:36
read that. But yes, and yes, no tear of the
37:42
Vervoids is very, very who done it, isn't it?
37:44
But I like, I mean, a whodunit is something that is, you know,
37:48
has become a cliche because it's a good, an exciting thing,
37:52
because it it enables you to twist and turn the story.
37:55
It enables you to fulfil expectations, reverse
37:58
expectations, have people go, Oh, I knew that.
38:00
Oh, I didn't think that it's, you know, it's a, it's a
38:03
brilliant device. And again, it gives this story,
38:06
which is essentially an action adventure, a different
38:09
dimension. I'm going to say something that
38:12
is absolutely typically hamster, so I apologise.
38:15
What's the actor's name? He plays Harold Chorley, John.
38:18
Rollison, Gosh, he took. His glasses off a moment ago.
38:21
He is such a pretty man. Oh yes, he's.
38:24
Very sexy in The Avengers. Oh, look at that show.
38:26
He was there. But did you see he literally
38:28
broke down in tears? That's the levels of anxiety.
38:31
Now we've got men breaking down in tears.
38:34
They are so frightened. And for me, I think I've said
38:39
this to you before, but for me, adults frightened was far
38:45
scarier than the monsters when I was younger.
38:47
Seeing adults in in moments of anxiety.
38:51
I never forget Chelac when that mudslide comes towards him and
38:55
he screams. As a.
38:57
Kid watching that, it terrified me.
39:02
Yes, that's a very good point. Imperiling adults is, which is
39:07
why Doctor Who, I think is very wisely steered clear of having
39:11
kids in it as identification characters or whatever, because
39:14
as a kid, you're not that interested in kids really.
39:17
I don't think I. Wish they'd learn that lesson in
39:19
the new series, you know? Yeah.
39:23
Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? I call them Yeah, It's, it's,
39:26
it's it's and sci-fi all over does it?
39:29
You know, let's let's, I mean, even Sidney Newman said let's we
39:32
need a kid, get into trouble. You actually don't need a kid.
39:35
Kids don't want to be kids. Or if you're going to.
39:37
Have a kid making someone like Vicky, you know, sassy and and
39:41
up for the adventure, Yeah. Yeah, Love, Vicky.
39:45
Love Maureen. Oh, this?
39:47
Sequence. Now it's all in silence.
39:49
This sequence, isn't it of the Yeti?
39:50
Yeah, it's all. It's all fades again, isn't it?
39:53
Yeah. Well, it sort of does feel like
39:55
it's all culminating now. Ah, Fraser, ah.
40:01
We love a bit of Fraser. Jamie's great.
40:03
Jamie's fab. I did now.
40:05
I made an unfair criticism recently that post.
40:11
The Evil of. The Daleks.
40:13
I don't think much is done with Jamie as a character.
40:18
Yeah, Oh, now he he adds huge value to the stories.
40:21
His his chemistry with his other leads is incredible.
40:25
It's fun to watch. But as a character, they don't
40:27
really look to examine him beyond evil of the Daleks.
40:31
I do think that is true, actually, and more could have
40:35
been done with him. But he's so fun, who cares?
40:38
Yes, but again, I'm not sure I care much about character
40:41
development of the regulars. The regulars are there as as a
40:44
conduit to everything else. And I think I think series can
40:47
become a bit too navel gazing if they fall too in love with the
40:51
regulars. If you've got really good actors
40:53
like Trout and really game actors like like Fraser Hines,
40:57
who knows that in his job to keep it interesting, to stop it
41:01
from being too PO faced to to to help the things rattle along and
41:05
to keep the audience engaged. I don't think you need to find
41:09
out he's sad because his uncle's died or he's got a disease or
41:13
something like that. Do you like sort?
41:14
Of Ian and Barbara going from, you know, suspicious travellers
41:18
to a family unit. Or I like Vicky.
41:21
Sorry, Zoe going from being that sort of cold logical miss to
41:26
being the biggest kid in the universe in the war games.
41:29
Well, Jamie. Has the thing of going from
41:31
being the uneducated Highlander to being Fraser Hines larking
41:35
about this Patrick Fountain? Which which?
41:37
How long does it take? Them to drop or what if the
41:39
what's that doctor? Yeah, I was watching one the
41:43
other day. I can't remember what it was,
41:44
where I was just like Jamie. Jamie is talking like a man from
41:47
the 1960s, and he has not been in it that long.
41:50
Oh gosh. Tell me we're talking all over
41:52
the reveal here. We.
41:53
Are so it's it's Sergeant Arnold Good.
41:58
Gosh, as my. Brother told me when I was on
42:01
about chapter bloody ten hit him.
42:04
With the book, you know, Oh. It's just an older brother
42:07
showing off. It was that thing of I've got a
42:09
bill of knowledge you haven't got.
42:11
Yeah, that's a particular. Failing in a lot of Doctor Who
42:15
fans as well. Yeah, my brother.
42:16
'S not even a Doctor Who fan, he's just a person.
42:20
It's amazing. I think the Yeti are excitingly
42:22
tall as well. Is he playing all this?
42:24
With RPS, Toby, is he doing? He is.
42:27
He is, but he's not. Is he is a racial accent well.
42:33
I mean, all actors at this time pretty much divested themselves
42:38
of their natural accent in order to speak RP.
42:44
Do you know what I mean? Even actors from it, it wasn't
42:48
fashionable at this point. And drama schools, one of the
42:52
things you went to drama school for was to drill your accent out
42:55
of you. Now, Jack Woolgard did did play
43:00
a lot of sort of northern parts and stuff, but he wasn't, he
43:02
was, he was born in Surrey, I think.
43:05
Yeah, it was, it was, it was. So I think, I'm sure his son
43:09
said that the accent he uses as the intelligence is closer to
43:13
the accent that he used in real life.
43:16
And that actually the northern thing is, is to suggest doubting
43:21
us. Reliability, earthiness,
43:23
everything you'd want in a Sergeant, it's a great choice.
43:26
So that was actually what was put on.
43:31
I was just watching his his body language there where he said the
43:34
line, then your young friend's neck will be broken.
43:40
So the doctor and it's just so it's it's just he's transformed.
43:45
It's a terrific performance and I love the.
43:49
Fact that it's it's still grubby.
43:51
I always like it with people who rather dirtiness works really
43:55
well in black and white but and and but the ending all of this
44:02
stuff in the book is slightly different.
44:05
Do you remember? Yes Tell.
44:06
Me. No, I don't.
44:08
Well, you see, this is where my own cannon comes into it.
44:11
You see, Joe, because they decide because, because of
44:14
course the the Doctor has a plan here, which again, plotting wise
44:19
is, is kind of egregious, is that if the Doctor's just
44:24
allowed to carry on with what he's doing because he's mucked
44:27
about with a circuitry, he would have destroyed the intelligence,
44:31
I think because he's stopping Jamie here, isn't he?
44:34
And instead he just delays the intelligence.
44:36
I think that's, that's what they that's what they say.
44:38
But if the Doctor had just been allowed to get on with it, he'd
44:41
have won. And but, but Jamie doing what he
44:43
thinks is the right thing ends up, yeah, he's saying it.
44:48
You're ruining everything. And it works because they think
44:51
the Doctor's been taken over by the intelligence.
44:55
And we have this and we have this shot here of Arnold I, I
44:59
think when it and his face turns black, doesn't it?
45:01
I remember seeing that on the telesnap and going, Oh my
45:03
goodness. And I think for a while there
45:07
was a rumour that his face melted.
45:09
But that's people conflating because I think the melty face
45:12
was actually Abominable Snowman. And actually whether that was
45:15
shown or whether that was just filmed, nobody's entirely quite
45:18
sure. But I did speak to a guy who
45:20
swore to me that when he saw the Abominable Snowman, Padma
45:23
Sambar's face melted. And then we discovered later
45:26
that had been filmed but it wasn't used.
45:28
But therefore how could that guy remember it if he didn't know
45:31
that behind the scenes fact? So that's one of those things
45:33
that we need to find out. Anyway, that's another story.
45:36
It's a word. For that, it's an M
45:37
misremembering things from your past.
45:40
But but what I'm what I'm driving at with Arnold is that
45:45
in this in this version, he says he must have been the first one
45:49
of the first soldiers to be killed.
45:51
And so the Staff Sergeant Arnold we have seen through this whole
45:55
story has been an excellent acting job by the great
45:59
intelligence, the whole contribution of Sergeant Arnold
46:03
even. When we see.
46:04
Him see him alone has been subterfuge and manipulation on
46:09
behalf of the Great Intelligence who is just animating his corpse
46:13
in the book Terence goes we could have saved Sergeant Arnold
46:19
because he he was a conduit for the intelligence, but he didn't
46:25
always know so when we knew Sergeant so this is Terence
46:28
going I've got a better version of this.
46:30
He does this for. Quite a bit more than anything.
46:32
It is an infinitely better version of this to say no, the
46:36
brave, stoical, Doughty, reliable Staff Sergeant Arnold
46:42
we saw was that. But he was, he was somehow that
46:46
the, the the intelligence was able to do what it does with
46:49
Travers, inhabit him when it needs to in order to do the bad
46:54
things that he does. But for the rest of the time,
46:57
Arnold himself is completely oblivious to that.
46:59
That is a much better version than the bit I choose to ignore
47:03
in this that suggests that Arnold's been dead from the
47:06
whole thing. Hang on you.
47:07
Can't pick and choose, you know I can't.
47:09
I bloody well can. I, I I.
47:15
It really. Upsets me that that that tiny
47:18
cosmetic change makes it I think such a different story and such
47:22
a different character and and a bit of the book it makes so.
47:25
Much sense. It makes no sense of the scenes
47:27
when he's not with other people and it's just.
47:29
Not as dramatically as a great intelligence.
47:31
No, we're watching. So when he's on his own, he
47:34
continues to puppeteer him. I mean, it's, but it's it's.
47:37
Just dramatically not as good, and it feels like we've been
47:40
robbed of an excellent character because Arnold is a great
47:43
character, I think. Terence was only looking over
47:46
Sherwin's shoulder at the moment, wasn't he?
47:48
He wasn't actually in the seat yet, was he?
47:51
This was Terence. This was Terence's entry, so.
47:54
He was, so he's correcting himself.
47:56
Well, I don't think he had ultimate authority.
48:01
Maybe that's maybe that's when he realised he thought because
48:03
Terence didn't think a lot of I wonder if for Sherwin.
48:08
I wonder if he. Made that suggestion and Sherwin
48:10
just went, oh, let's just go to the pub.
48:12
And that's where Terence, that's where Terence thought this guys
48:15
are wrong. No one but.
48:16
Toby Hado's got to be worried about Sergeant Arnold.
48:19
Come on now. We ended.
48:23
How sad. There we are.
48:27
It is a. Very quick ending, isn't it now?
48:29
And I yes, some part of me is like, well, you know, so we've
48:33
gone through 6 episodes of terror just for Oh well, I've
48:37
only I've stalled them, but they'll be back.
48:41
Is that just because we were due the third great intelligence
48:44
story in season? I think so.
48:46
Yeah, because a layer of the Mccrimmon.
48:48
Yeah, I mean the. Ending explicitly says that you
48:51
know, they've it's only been banished.
48:53
It hasn't been destroyed to to pave the way for the you know,
48:58
the third of the Yeti trilogy, which never in our wildest.
49:01
Dreams. Did we think that this would be
49:03
manifested many years later in the form of Celia Emery?
49:08
Oh yes indeed. I thought you were going to say
49:10
in the form of a straight to video I'm.
49:13
Sorry, that was the unofficial 1, wasn't it?
49:16
Yeah. With with with some of the most
49:19
extraordinary James Breen at the beginning of it that you ever
49:23
likely to witness what. Do you seek?
49:26
Yes, it is. Well, and Deborah Watling in
49:28
that first scene as well. Yeah, I will say Chris Barry's
49:32
pretty game in that like given the the the zero budget the
49:36
thing had. Oh God.
49:38
Yes. And again, at the time, you know
49:40
what, what we had and the fact that we all had an appetite for
49:44
the past and everything, it was, you know, you can't but admire
49:47
those things. But I remember being somewhat
49:50
surprised, shall I say, by the quality of the thesping in the
49:53
opening scene. Did you ever see the straight to
49:56
video BBV classic Lust in Space? Toby I I've.
50:01
Not had that pleasure, although I've seen lots of it.
50:03
I'm going to. Send you a copy of that.
50:05
Oh really James? Unfortunately he just had a
50:08
stroke and and it's a dialogue heavy script and so he's really
50:13
struck but he's still great. Like it's still James 3.
50:17
So I was. I was there the day Ian Levine
50:19
tried to get A1 legged diner Sheridan to read 3 pages of
50:24
three pages of back story we've, which is again a situation
50:30
fandom. Quite a bit, haven't we?
50:32
Situation. I never thought I'd find myself
50:34
in and and again, those sorts of things that sleep in my sleep,
50:38
in my memory, and I sort of forget I've been a part of it.
50:40
And I go, Oh yeah, I was there that day.
50:42
I mean, I'm not. Going to say what this is
50:44
referring to, but I mean I have seen several photographs of you
50:48
reacting to to a moment of fan shame.
50:55
I just love the fact that you know people are there waiting
50:59
for your reaction. Quit.
51:00
Get the camera around. He's got his.
51:04
Head in his hands. Wonderful.
51:08
You know, very quickly I just want to say, because we started
51:11
this episode talking about missing episodes, one of the
51:14
most enticing sensor clips for me.
51:17
Because remember I told you, you know, adults in situations of
51:23
extreme anxiety really, really gets me sweating.
51:26
That scene with Van Luchens down the Impella shaft being dragged
51:32
away to its death. Fucking.
51:35
Hell, I want to say that so badly I would.
51:37
So love to see Fury from the deep and isn't it weird?
51:42
I think I'm right in saying that it and Mission to the unknown.
51:48
I may be wrong about Mission but the Fury from the deep was the
51:50
last. Now I scratched what I said
51:53
about Mission to the owner, but Fury from the Deep was, I think,
51:57
the last story to be junked. So.
52:02
We we had, we had it the most recently.
52:05
And I think from what I understand from poring over all
52:08
of those, what was sold where and what was a it's, it's, I
52:11
think it's the least likely to come back.
52:14
Oh. Gosh, I mean, because yeah, they
52:16
are. The common story is, you know,
52:18
the dialect was taped out, ready to be destroyed.
52:20
So would that have been after Fury then?
52:24
Well, oh. OK, a good anecdote.
52:28
OK, no comment. We're busting fan miss today,
52:33
but and. Yes.
52:37
And I know Master Plan wasn't sold abroad at all, but the fact
52:41
that we've had three episodes of Master Plan come back, I have
52:45
this theory. I have nothing to back it up at
52:47
all. But I, I like this idea that
52:49
Master Plan is a bit like the key to time.
52:51
And it was all in a room. Just loads of different BBC
52:53
people came in and said I'm going to Nick, I'm going to have
52:56
one, I'm going to have one. And they're all.
52:58
Out there somewhere and it. And it.
53:00
Keeps going and and then we've got the clips as well from the
53:02
blue Peters. It's sort of almost like very,
53:05
very slowly, if we hang around for long enough, it's we're just
53:08
going to have all these bits that will come together.
53:11
This is the. Longest umbrella season I've
53:13
ever had to. Except episode 7, which I think
53:18
although there are some people that don't hold with that theory
53:22
that that episode 7 is is the least likely to come back
53:25
because it wasn't it a film print wasn't struck for sale.
53:29
So therefore there wasn't even a sales print of it.
53:33
So therefore even those ones that we have, which themselves
53:37
are likely to exist, are slightly more likely to exist
53:41
than any print of episode 7. But there is a theory that
53:45
because it was on on Christmas Day, some BBC execs might have
53:49
wanted to watch it and wouldn't have done so on Christmas Day.
53:54
So a viewing print might have been struck.
53:56
So it's not 100% certain that no print would have been struck of
54:02
it, even though we know no sales print was struck for Australia,
54:07
which is where it is the only country it was sent to given.
54:10
That some of these episodes have turned up in the most random of
54:15
places some of them yeah, and. And.
54:17
And unlikely of places. I mean, there's just there's a
54:21
possibility of anything, right? Well, the.
54:24
Some dusty corners. Of a boot sale or the fact that
54:27
any. Have come back and especially I
54:30
think the fact that that master plan episodes have come back
54:33
seeing as as as I say that the the the likelihood of there
54:38
being more than one or two cop is made, unlike Marco Polo where
54:42
I think we know there were 19. So therefore, if we're playing
54:46
statistics, the statistics have already made the lie of
54:49
statistics because the fact that we don't have all of seasons one
54:53
and two, although we've done pretty well.
54:55
I mean, we take seasons one and two for granted, but but we
54:58
shouldn't because they weren't always there.
55:00
Then they, you know, but but but and, and, and you know, there is
55:04
there is stuff from around that time period that we don't have.
55:07
It's just because they sold so widely.
55:10
But therefore the fact that we haven't got Marco Polo is quite
55:13
extraordinary. The fact that the fact that we
55:16
that we have got master plan is quite extraordinary.
55:20
So when we say, Oh, well, this is less likely and this is more
55:23
likely, I think I think, you know, 10th planet and power, I
55:27
think were were were sold to a far fewer, but I think because
55:33
Fury was because Fury was, I think I think pretty grim and
55:38
had and cuts and I think wasn't shown in some places.
55:41
But so I can't remember why now, but I I believe Fury is is is
55:47
among the very least likely and and yet so is master plan.
55:52
So what do we know? We've broken the.
55:56
Statistics once, let's do it again.
55:58
Yeah, but. But so the so the fact is, you
56:04
know, if if if you want to play the eye opener cupboard tomorrow
56:07
and find 2 film cans you can't go, well, it stands to reason
56:12
it's more likely to be this than it is likely to be that.
56:15
It could just as easily also annoyingly, be an episode we've
56:19
got because there's no reason you know the space.
56:23
Pirates episode 6 as you know. I would love to see that more.
56:26
Milo Clancy, bring it on. I well, I yeah, I mean, I'm not
56:30
a massive fan of the Space Pirates, but Space Pirates
56:33
episode 6 is of course fascinating because it's the
56:36
last story. And in fact, I think apart from
56:40
Mission, it's the only story when none of the regular cast
56:43
are present for the recording of it because they're all on film
56:47
and they're all making the off, making the war games.
56:50
So actually there's there's all of those actors will have had a
56:53
week where they didn't work with Patrick Troughton, Fraser Hines
56:56
and Wendy Padbury. They weren't in the rehearsal
56:58
rooms that week. They were off.
57:02
Now, Toby, it's been a while since we've ended commentary
57:05
together, but I don't know if you recall, we do have to list
57:09
all three fabulous things. Now I'm sure you could list 100
57:14
fabulous things to recommend the Web of Fear, but if you go 1st
57:19
and then I'll, I'll do one after you and we'll bat back and forth
57:22
for free. OK, Yes.
57:26
The I mean, I could just say episode 4, but why don't I say,
57:31
because I'm sure I mentioned last time I, I turned around to
57:35
my friend and said that's the best episode of Doctor Who I've
57:37
ever seen. But of course, part of that was
57:41
the romance of it. But I will say the Battle of
57:43
Covent Garden, which I think has everything I want from Doctor
57:47
Who in it just in terms of its content, but also the fact that
57:51
it's the director going pulling out all the stops to make a
57:54
sequence that could be fairly straightforward.
57:57
You know, he throws the absolute kitchen sink on it.
58:01
And I also like the fact that he makes sure to give every single
58:06
one of his non speaking stunt extra performers a close up and
58:12
a line. And that's a very that's a so he
58:15
is Mr. Action, he is Mr. Organised, he is Mr. Atmosphere.
58:19
But that's a really decent thing to do as a boss to say.
58:22
I'll make sure you get a line love.
58:24
Yeah, so I appreciate that from a, from a thespy point of view
58:27
as well. But actually, no, the headline
58:29
news, the Battle of Covent Garden is well done.
58:32
It's brutal. It's it's so much more than was
58:36
on the page and it's it's really well executed.
58:41
No, it's not for no reason that Elizabeth Sladen tells that
58:44
anecdote in her autobiography of everybody agreeing to come in on
58:49
the Saturday unpaid. Because Douglas Canfield said we
58:53
need like, I really wanted this to be as good as it can be.
58:56
And she said we would have done anything for Dougie.
58:59
Anything. There we go.
59:01
Yeah, and everyone. Brought in a bit of lunch,
59:03
sounds like they had a great day.
59:05
Man, I wish Confidential had been around in those days.
59:07
My first thing then it's something that you said that I
59:10
absolutely agree with and that is taking some of the absolute
59:13
poniest ideas ever in Doctor Who.
59:16
Yetis in the underground, Great web guns and fungus coming
59:21
through corridors and just, it's absolutely absurd, isn't it?
59:25
And turning it into Murder House Underground, the most
59:30
chillingest at most atmospheric, terrifying 6 episodes of Doctor
59:36
Who and it again is down to Douglas Canfield.
59:40
But also, like, whoever's lighting this thing, whoever's
59:43
designing those sets, you know, it is a collaborative effort,
59:47
this to create that feeling of oppression and horror down in
59:53
those tunnels. And it's just magic.
59:57
I mean, the way Doctor Who does take crazy ideas and spin
1:00:02
chilling horror out of it, it's a certain type of magic, and I
1:00:06
think it's why we keep coming back to it.
1:00:08
And this is an exemplary example of it.
1:00:12
Yes, absolutely. Does that mean that well, no,
1:00:15
because I don't think I, I, I have to say, I think the
1:00:18
setting, the underground just in terms of concept it it it breeds
1:00:23
the well, though it was John Putley.
1:00:24
They invoked the the Yeti sitting on your loo in Tooting
1:00:27
Beckville. Is he sitting on your tube?
1:00:30
But Tooting Beck, the fact that it's a recognisable location,
1:00:34
the fact that it it allows for with the visuals that we get,
1:00:40
including some brilliant lighting from Clive Layton and
1:00:43
some absolutely exceptional set design from David Maerskoff
1:00:46
Jones. But also it fits within the what
1:00:49
you need to do to make Doctor Who.
1:00:50
Well, is you can have the same set and just put different signs
1:00:54
up, which is genius. But but the underground setting
1:00:58
works as a concept. It's take Doctor Who takes
1:01:01
something familiar and make it terrifying, but the way that
1:01:05
it's realized as well is absolutely gorgeous.
1:01:07
So the underground, I think is very important.
1:01:10
Well, it's. It's, it's like an old myth.
1:01:12
It's a maze, isn't it? They're trapped in a maze of a
1:01:16
honeycomb of tunnels that, well, there's a horror around every
1:01:19
corner. I would like to put in a pun for
1:01:25
Anne Travers, who I think is a wonderful, wonderful character.
1:01:30
It's something that we don't do often enough and that is put,
1:01:34
I'm going to say mature because she's not a young character, you
1:01:40
know, sort of thirties, 40s scientist with Doctor Who.
1:01:46
And it always works brilliantly. I mean, think of nearest Hughes
1:01:49
and Kinder, you know, having a slightly older Liz Shaw in
1:01:53
Season 7 as well. Very competent woman.
1:01:57
But I think it's a really charming performance as well.
1:02:01
And yeah, I just think she lightens up every scene that
1:02:04
she's in. And she's kind of needed because
1:02:06
this is a male heavy story, right?
1:02:09
There's a lot of blokes in this story, but fuck, she holds her
1:02:14
own, you know? I mean, we talked about that
1:02:15
cliched line of, you know, when I was a little girl.
1:02:18
Yeah. She's.
1:02:19
Great, I want decided. I wanted to be a scientist, so I
1:02:21
became a scientist. She's wonderful.
1:02:24
Yeah. And Travis I I.
1:02:26
I have limited experience with Tina Packer, but I did, I did
1:02:29
enjoy doing a commentary with her.
1:02:30
And she's a, you know, she's a bright, smart, tough woman.
1:02:34
I liked her a lot. I liked her a lot.
1:02:36
Smart cookie, you know, still working in Shakespeare in
1:02:40
America. Good for her.
1:02:42
And yeah. And she doesn't do the thing
1:02:44
that a lot of 60s women where where time isn't particularly
1:02:49
kind to either the performance or the presentation or even
1:02:52
actually the Annunciation, you know, can be a little bit.
1:02:56
I think it's a bit more pronounced with women who have
1:02:58
to be a little bit more anyone for tennis.
1:03:01
And and actually, I don't think she I think it's a it's a
1:03:05
performance that's aged well in a characterization that's aged
1:03:08
well. Now, good choice.
1:03:11
We like a bitter and Travers Tina Packer.
1:03:14
I'm going to have to choose because I think the best thing
1:03:17
about the story full stop is and it's got lots of ingredients.
1:03:21
I love love the actors, I love UNIT, I love military in Doctor
1:03:26
Who. I think it's a nice
1:03:27
juxtaposition. You have your cake and eat it
1:03:29
because you have this central character who's a mercurial
1:03:31
clown. So therefore you can have the
1:03:33
tough guy stuff that I might reject something being you know,
1:03:38
I always say that Doctor Who's more than that, it's better than
1:03:40
that because it's got the character.
1:03:41
Well, but you can also have your cake and eat it.
1:03:43
But but the the stand out thing that makes the Weber fear is
1:03:50
undoubtedly Douglas Campfield, who just does atmosphere so
1:03:54
well. He's always pushing.
1:03:56
He's always got the the pacing of it in his mind.
1:04:01
He's pushing his characters and his actors to be as realistic as
1:04:05
possible. But he's not cold and dry.
1:04:07
I think because he's the action man and the military man.
1:04:10
I think we we sometimes underestimates his ability to to
1:04:15
actually make sure that it's not all samee and, and to actually
1:04:20
have a little bit of colour and character here and there as
1:04:23
well. But that's because he is so good
1:04:26
at the atmosphere and at the pace and at the action and if
1:04:30
ringing the most out of those scenes and keeping it real.
1:04:34
It's a fantasy show, but the fantastical can only work if
1:04:39
your baseline is plausibility and reality, and Canfield is the
1:04:43
best at that. There's a reason he was a
1:04:45
popular Doctor Who director. There's a reason they always
1:04:48
give him the really good scripts to to handle, because he
1:04:52
delivers every time. He was a fantastic director, one
1:04:58
of. One of my of quoted remarks
1:05:02
about direction is because I did study those how stammers and
1:05:06
Walkers handbooks in a lot of depth and wonderfully they put
1:05:11
the budgets for the individual episodes and I used to pour over
1:05:16
those. They made it on how much 2 1/2
1:05:19
thousand and it is a truth, Toby that most of the Daleks master
1:05:27
plan was made on less money than the Chase per episode.
1:05:33
And so when people suggest that and I did have heard Richard
1:05:38
Martin on the web planet DVD. So we didn't have the time.
1:05:41
We didn't have the money, you know, to do the work that we
1:05:43
wanted to do that I sometimes suggest it is the competency of
1:05:47
the director and the skill because I I can see with my own
1:05:52
eyes what's happening in the Daleks master plan and what's
1:05:54
happening in the chase and Douglas Canfield.
1:05:58
It was just the best, right, for the, the, I call it Gorilla TV.
1:06:02
But the, the pace that it was being made at, I mean, the
1:06:06
artistic flourishes that that man could do add a lick, you
1:06:11
know, it's it's extraordinary. It really is.
1:06:15
Yeah. That's great.
1:06:15
But that isn't my last. Thing, because that was your
1:06:17
last thing. My last thing is I think a
1:06:19
whodunit is a particularly hard thing to get right.
1:06:23
And I think this is a very adept example.
1:06:26
Now we've talked about the rescue and it's suspect Paul of
1:06:29
one. We've talked about the robots of
1:06:31
death and it's, you know, shot of dust trousers.
1:06:34
And lest we never forget Dolan coming straight up to the camera
1:06:38
and going, my God, some fool was introduced low spectrum lights
1:06:43
into this thing. You know, I wonder who that
1:06:45
could have been. So it is quite hard to do this.
1:06:48
And I think choosing Arnold and what's the fellow's name,
1:06:55
Walker. Jack Walker.
1:06:56
Jack Walker. It it was such a savvy move
1:06:59
because I don't think for a second I thought it was that
1:07:03
character until it was revealed in episode 6.
1:07:06
There's enough fingers pointing in different directions, There's
1:07:09
enough red herrings. There's characters introduced
1:07:12
throughout the story like Lethbridge, Stewart, you know,
1:07:15
to distract you from a very clear and potential suspect
1:07:20
that's been under your nose throughout the entire story with
1:07:23
a prominent role as well. It's not even like like Dolan,
1:07:26
He's not, he's not like a peripheral character.
1:07:28
He's there in the thick of the action for the 1st 4 episodes.
1:07:32
I think it's so well done. And then just that performance
1:07:35
shift, it's the Jacoby effects from Utopia, the performance
1:07:39
shift when he goes from, you know, lovable Sergeant Arnold to
1:07:42
the evil great intelligence. And it's like we pulled in a
1:07:45
different actor. Just amazingly good.
1:07:48
Yeah, yeah, he's great. He's great.
1:07:50
And although it's, it's funny because obviously he's on the
1:07:55
book cover because they took a publicity photo of him, because
1:07:59
he's the, he's the Jack Watling aside, he's he's your main guest
1:08:04
star. I think the billing in the Radio
1:08:06
Times is Patrick Troughton and Jack Watling, with Jack Woolgar,
1:08:10
Nicholas Courtney and Tina Packer.
1:08:12
So, you know, so they're taking publicity photographs of him.
1:08:16
So if you've got an eye for such things, you might go, oh, is he
1:08:20
the bad guy? But drawing attention to that
1:08:23
actor? Yeah.
1:08:24
But that's with the benefit of hindsight and knowing that I've
1:08:27
just watched the television programme, actually, that I
1:08:31
won't give away what it is because I don't spoil it for
1:08:33
anybody. But it's on.
1:08:35
It's just come out and the order of the cast.
1:08:40
In the in the. Opening credits essentially
1:08:43
enables you to work out and it's one where people get killed off
1:08:46
in a particular order, enables you to work out who's going to
1:08:49
go 1st and, and I'm not lying, that is the order that they go
1:08:53
in. I don't.
1:08:55
Want to make you angry, but I am going to say this and I'm going
1:08:58
to see a shift in your face now. But, you know, like you, you're
1:09:01
talking to sort of like the the DVD menu of horror, fan rock,
1:09:04
that sort of thing, Yeah. Yeah.
1:09:07
Don't. Don't get me started on the DVD
1:09:09
menu. Free.
1:09:10
Fucking murder. I couldn't believe it.
1:09:13
That was your first time watching.
1:09:15
I would. Fire everyone involved in that.
1:09:19
I'll do it for you. I can make it look like an
1:09:21
accident, Toby. Now only you and I could start a
1:09:25
2 episode commentary 8:00 and finish at almost half eleven.
1:09:32
Oh my goodness, but. Me, don't you?
1:09:34
Say you don't get Van from Toby Hado got a hamster or a blood
1:09:38
pen knife. All right.
1:09:40
I mean, the first four gone down extremely well.
1:09:42
I know people are going to love these last two too.
1:09:45
I am going to put you on the spot though, very quickly before
1:09:48
you go and I'm going to ask you a question that I don't usually
1:09:51
ask because we determine this off Mike usually.
1:09:54
Why don't you shut the fuck up? I'd never say that.
1:09:58
No. Good grief with them.
1:10:01
Should we go next? What me and you we've had so.
1:10:05
Much fun talking about the web of fear.
1:10:07
I mean, I feel we should do another commentary in the
1:10:09
future. Where do you fancy going?
1:10:12
Oh well, my goodness. Should we do one that we like,
1:10:18
or should we do one that we don't?
1:10:20
We're the last. Couple we've loved.
1:10:24
Yeah. What we've done with Frontiers
1:10:26
together we did Sons of the Light Before Us and The Dead
1:10:29
together We did Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords
1:10:33
together. We did.
1:10:35
We did the Silurians together. I mean, we've been on a hell of
1:10:38
a journey. We have.
1:10:40
Haven't we? I'm not sure.
1:10:42
I'm not. I'm not sure.
1:10:45
I'm not sure we should. Yeah.
1:10:46
The certain. No, because I Yeah, I have an
1:10:50
image to maintain. There's a, there's AI think, I
1:10:53
think we need to draw an embargo line.
1:10:56
Well, let's stick. To the classic, shall we?
1:10:58
I think we're on safe ground there, OK.
1:11:03
Well, what What? I mean, what have you got left
1:11:05
to do that? What what does nobody want to
1:11:07
do, Joe? I would.
1:11:09
I mean, I've already done Web of Fear once many years ago, like
1:11:12
so I mean, I, I just whatever people want to talk about these
1:11:14
days and I'll talk with you a bit about anything really.
1:11:19
Yeah. Now we have, we sort of touched
1:11:20
on you. We haven't done much in the 70s
1:11:22
though, you know. Apart from 7 episodes of Doctor
1:11:25
Who and the Silerians, we did the.
1:11:27
Silerians. Yeah, yeah.
1:11:28
Have we done a Tom or do I think we've done a Tom, You know, have
1:11:31
we not? Done A Tom.
1:11:32
No, we we did talk about the Keats time recently.
1:11:35
Oh yeah? Well, which Tom would you like
1:11:40
to do? Something really delicious I
1:11:43
think we should do. Oh, have you have you covered?
1:11:49
I don't think you have. You haven't done talents of Wing
1:11:51
Chai Hang have you? For happy times and places?
1:11:54
I haven't. Oh, come on, let's do that then.
1:11:57
You want to do. Talents.
1:11:58
Yes, yes. Yes, yes, as long as we promise,
1:12:01
you know, get me cancelled. No that.
1:12:03
We'll cover all of that bullshit in Episode 1, all the race
1:12:07
nonsense, yeah, straight off the bat, so that we can just relax
1:12:11
and enjoy the thing, yeah. OK, let's do talons.
1:12:15
Oh, what a joy. Well, until we head to foggy
1:12:18
Victorian London with Henry Gordon Jago and Professor.
1:12:24
Dear old Christopher Benjamin. And sing Daisy Daisy on the
1:12:29
stage. Thank you very much.
1:12:32
This has been, as always, a complete joy.
1:12:36
Thanks for having me and it's always a pleasure.