Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Navigating Our Kids' Social Challenges Part 2: Older Kids | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 1 Episode 6

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Navigating Our Kids' Social Challenges Part 2: Older Kids | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 1 Episode 6 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:02
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• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So happy you're here.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Deb, we get all kinds of questions about this at the podcast about what to do when we see our kiddos struggling socially.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's probably helpful for us to start with this idea of getting really clear on what's happening for us in those moments so that we can start there, right?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe I could start us off by reminding folks that because we have been children ourselves, and because we all have our own experiences that we bring to the table from that childhood experience, when we see our kids going through something that we experienced, and even if that something is just middle school or high school, right?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or friend dynamics, we have all experienced all of those things.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like an initiation into adulthood.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're listening to this, you have been initiated.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's actually really impossible for us to mother our children during these stages and not have our own stuff come up.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I know for me, for example, um, it's funny, I spent a lot of time in high school, especially middle and high school, really feeling like I wasn't cool enough.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had these experiences as a kid where I felt like I had to perform in order to be included.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I watch my daughters going through the stage of development, and I can't help but feel it all over again with them.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: When I experience that, my brain goes into the state of fight, flight, or freeze because it's threatening to me.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I need to remember, and I want to remember our listeners that our limbic brain, which is fight, flight or freeze, and our frontal cortex, which is rational thought, logical thinking, problem solving, they're never turned on at the same time.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: They can't coexist.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: They can't coexist.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: So in order for me to get to the place where I can help problem solve, and we'll talk about some of those strategies and when it's important to be curious versus problem solve, but I can't even access that until I quiet down that part of my brain.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where maternal mental health is so important.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because before we can help our kids navigate their feelings, we have to be able to navigate our own.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that is like, gosh, probably one of the things, again, now that I have kiddos in this stage where I am constantly coming back to myself.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, Deb, I'm curious to know what you do.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, it's we've said this before in this podcast, it's as simple as feeling the bottom of my foot on the floor.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Bringing my attention back to, oh, I am here.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's 2022.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 49 years old.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know how to do this.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Taking a deep breath, maybe, you know, not sort of leaning into the situation right in that moment, right?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're you've talked so much in this podcast about pausing.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like taking a pause, coming back.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's something that that is so important for our listeners to hear is that these social situations that we're observing for our kids are triggering for us.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're highly activating for everyone.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think you're absolutely right, in the sense of um there like there is no way that we can give our kids something that we don't have.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Say more about that.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So remember the early days when um I think it's Dan Siegel's work would talk about that you if you are not regulated, your children are not regulated.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and that's that's maternal mental health in a nutshell.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's your bread and butter.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and I think right now, based on what you're saying too, is that it takes daily work to stay regulated.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, literally, if I slip, and I do all the time, by the way, I slipped yesterday.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I my kid got triggered, I got triggered, I did not parent well.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was so messy, and it honestly, I it was pretty ugly, and like, and it was just so clear in that moment that there was no pause.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I say this because it has to be a daily practice for us, and we're gonna mess up all the time.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one thing I love that I we have done with our girls, and I, you know, I wanna um I'm gonna I'm gonna press a pause button.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: This actually came up in a question.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we have talked to our daughters about this podcast and what we share and don't share.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to be really clear for our listeners that this is an ongoing conversation for the six of us, right?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Our four daughters and you and me.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that we've talked to them about often, I hear us doing this, I hear you do it, I hear myself do it all the time, is to remind them that we struggle with these things still in our 40s, right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like feelings of competition and a tendency to take things personally and leaving ourselves out rather than leaning in, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So all these social dynamics that we see our kids go through, we're still going through.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: The difference is that we have a fully formed frontal cortex and they don't.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, oh I love that.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that when I know for my kids, when they hear my stories of things that are currently happening, and I have to be somewhat mindful to, you know, around how much I share, but I'm pretty transparent with them a lot, and I think that it's really helpful for them.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's always sort of a this is kind of a martial art of how do I bring in how I took care of myself in that moment and how do I model, like you know, going back and having a repair if needed, or how to work it out on my own if needed.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those are the places we lend perspective because one thing they lack right now is perspective.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's no way they can have it.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: That comes with a fully developed brain.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is reminding me actually of a situation that a client shared with me.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I think maybe we could use this as an example here, okay?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's this let let's call this um person Mary, right?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: The mother Mary, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Mother Mary.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I didn't even play in that, but there we go.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call her bring her in.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's bring Mother Mary in.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So Mother Mary has a uh uh uh teenage son, actually, who's a junior.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that she is observing in let's call him, I don't know, come up with a name for me.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Steve.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Steve, Mother Mary and son Steve.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mother Mary and son Steve.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Steve is in this really interesting stage where he is not only trying to navigate friendships, but he's trying to navigate like interests and his place in life, right?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does he identify himself, right?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is he a football player or is he a musician?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I will also say, just because I think it's it's worthy of note for this context, Steve is someone who's in who's interested in lots and lots of different things.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So he hasn't kind of found his thing yet.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that's happening for Mother Mary is that every time Steve, she likes watches him from a distance, and what she sees Steve doing is sort of puffing up his chest with friends.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like he is saying things about himself that isn't necessarily true.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: She's hearing him talk about, you know, football as if he's like the star of the team.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, which we know is coming from a place of insecurity.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he's, you know, and you know, he he almost at one point um she could see where he where the kind of trick was, but he almost made it sound like he was in a band.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the point.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So he's exaggerating.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: She's observing Steve exaggerate, and she's so cringed out.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: She's so cringed out, and she's sort of like, man, how do I navigate this?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she's sort of and some levels, she's also, I want to say, friends with a lot of Steve's moms.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Moms, Steve's friends' moms.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so she's also feeling this like embarrassment because there's this whole world that Steve's creating that she knows isn't accurate.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, it reminds I'm just thinking of it now because it reminds me of this question about how engaged do we get?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: When we see our kids making their own mistakes, we feel all the cringiness, and then there's this community that surrounds it.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is two really important topics.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Take us off.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with when she's really cringed out.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna be redundant in that it has to start with her, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Tending to herself.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be really specific here.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about this as if, because we know it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're therapists, we like talk it all the time, but I want to be really specific for our listeners.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to tend to your own emotions?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So oftentimes that will involve going to a place of quiet, naming the emotions, having a a solid vocabulary for your emotions.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is Brene Brene Brown's work.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: We've said her last book, which has Alice of the Heart.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Put it in the show notes.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a good book, and it talks about really um diversifying your your language, not just saying I'm triggered or I'm sad.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what exactly are you feeling?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's huge.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Also, Dan Siegel's work, name it to tame it, right?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: We start there.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's always the somatic work that is so useful of coming into your body, naming the sensations you feel.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: It might just be rapid heart rate, clamminess in my hands, temperature you're aware of.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that just brings you right into the present moment.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: It brings you into the present moment, but I also want to name, I want to name, we do a lot of naming on this point.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: I want to name that when we can bring something tangible to our experience, like heat in our chest, turning in our tummy, tightness in our jaw, right?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: We we actually pull ourselves into the observer role.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're not our feelings, we're not our thoughts.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we're not our child's friend or living as a cis 17-year-old like our child is.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of observation gives us enough distance to have some perspective.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, and that separation is it gives us more perspective.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I think it's really useful to ask yourself, what is coming up for me and what does it remind me of?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really kind of cool thing.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I can give you an example.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, someone asked me once, or a client was talking about the popular girls.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's a whole other conversation.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: But um, and I asked her, I said, what does popular girls mean for you?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And she was quick to say mean, exclusive, unkind.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, so that's your story.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be what you bring into this relationship.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: What's right in front of you?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she actually said, you know, these girls seem really nice, they're just like a little faster or whatever, or they seem more mature, but they're kind and they look out for each other.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's a really important thing to see what's happening versus what is your story.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Then I always think bring it to an adult whom you trust.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I talked about this before, but find a really good friend you can be super messy with, or talk to your therapist or your partner, or journal, something that is going to actually allow you to let it all hang out in order to come back with more clarity.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to reiterate something I just heard you say because it feels super, super important.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that client's definition, the initial definition of when you said, what is tell me what that means, a popular girl, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Was her experience from that stage of her life and how she saw the popular girls.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it was such a subjective definition.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't an objective reflection of what was in front of her.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that actually is really at the crux of why parenting, mothering through this stage is so hard.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are seeing it through our adolescent eyes versus through our adult, mature, maternal eyes.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And just to repeat something that we said earlier, that what needs to happen first is that we need to get out of that part of our brain that's reactive and get into the front of our brain that's you know, that contains rational thought, logical thinking, that frontal cortex executive functioning.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I actually would encourage listeners to write it down, make a list of what your regulation tools are.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some people call it a fire escape plan, some people call it um just the way I come, because whatever it is.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: In those moments, you're not gonna remember usually because if we're act if we're activated, we go into fight or fight, like you said.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So write it down, put it somewhere that you can go back and find it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so what what was the next part?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um we were well, we were talking about this um Mother Mary of Son Steve.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we were you you we were talking about this sort of um first tending to self.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you love how we start transforming the podcast all the time first tending to self- I got it, I guess.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So first tend to yourself, so important.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Next is when do you step in?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third piece is what do you do with your community when there's so we're gonna get there because that's so important.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do we do when we step in?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is actually, and I I want to riff off this that um this really becomes a delicate dance.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, I think that we cannot have a useful conversation until we're regulated.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: We've made that very clear.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because a 17-year-old us cannot parent our 17-year-old child.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's key.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Then I think, and that it's to have a moment when you when Mary and Steve are on a walk or in the car, somewhere I actually encourage not to be eye to eye at this stage because we've heard this before through lots of research that the eye to eye with a teenager is actually really intimidating sometimes and can make someone feel like they're being interrogated versus being someone being curious with them.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that using those opportunities where you're not eye to eye is a wonderful option.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then it might be really honest, like, hey, you know, I heard you talking to your friend about this thing that happened in football.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that that's not totally accurate.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you're coming at it with kindness.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and curiosity brings us back to our our episode on judging our kids.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because in this example, and this is not to shame or blame Mother Mary, but she's judging Steve for how he's showing up with his kids, like we are his friends, like we all do.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we really hounded in in that podcast about how curiosity is the anecdote to judgment.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: It really is because it activates the frontal cord.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, and we we need more information.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we do, exactly.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to help him understand what's happening for him in that moment.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes in with gentleness, you know, softness in your voice.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would say if that feels natural for you.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I know that that wasn't totally accurate.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: What was happening for you in that moment?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Really simple.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not going into any, I think you should do this, or you know, why did you do that?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, here's a good one from mom.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Asking a question, why?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, will almost always put people on the defense.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's really important that we attempt to take the word why out of our vocabulary for a little while.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And replace it with like, help me understand, or I'd love to know more about what was happening for you.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so curious.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I and maybe even I have definitely been there with exaggerating parts of my life.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we still do.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we catch ourselves doing that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: The difference is that we have the tools to notice it and shift, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna kind of circle back here that in that moment when you're inviting him in, you're actually reminding him that you are his circle of trust.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: You are the place where he comes and rests.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You are safe because going back to where he started, the nature of adolescence is unreliable, unpredictable, and it's really hard to be totally, totally authentic with friends.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a parent-child relationship, even though they're moving more towards peer orientation, there's still that kind of thread and rooted place where they can just flail with you.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can tolerate their ups and downs.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they have a hard time tolerating them because they're not fully developed yet and they're exploring themselves, but we can tolerate their ups and downs, right?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: That they can trust us to be there regardless of what they're saying to their friends and what their friends think about them and who chooses them and who doesn't, right?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: That we are their constant.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And again, now I'm being repetitive, but the only way to be in that place of being able to tolerate their ups and downs and be their constant is if we are taking care of ourselves.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, that's this is the hardest part for me in mothering is recognizing that it is not my job to prevent our kids from having those situations.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Say that again.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Our job is to tolerate our kids' pain so that they learn how to tolerate their own pain.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: That if we come into motherhood and these um these examples of relationships with our kids, with the sense that our job is to protect them from feeling that pain, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I want to give you all this advice so that you're never in that situation, so no one ever leaves you out or criticizes you or right, we're actually getting in the way of such an important human development process because life is painful.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, in order for us to tolerate our kids' pain, we have to be able to tolerate our own pain.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: In order to tolerate our own pain, we have to have those tools and strategies and capacities to calm down our limbic brain, turn on our frontal cortex, and be willing to feel all the feels.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which is what we want our kids to do.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: The goal is not for ease and happiness, the goal is to have a capacity for discomfort and for them to trust that they can get through hard stuff.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that, Deb, in a nutshell, is my definition of mental health.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Same, right?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: We want our kids to develop mental health.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So in order for us to help them develop mental health, we have to give them space to have these freaking awkward, cringy, sad, hurtful, challenging, aggravating social experiences.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And our tendency of moms is to panic when we see our kids having them and want to do something about it.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or help them just get out of it.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Can you circle back to the third part of this question?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is a really big one.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that a lot a number of psychologists that work with kids have talked about this, but what about that question about um how much do we involve our kids' friends who might be our friends in these dynamics?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can you speak to that?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is such a tricky one, especially right now, because a lot of people, the friends, become who you your family is hang out with in the early years.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, Lisa Des Moines talks about this so beautifully, and she has a really strong stance that she really stays away from befriending her friends' kids, parents, and um her kids' friends' parents.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I gotcha.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that's one way to do it.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um that personally is harder for me, especially because I mean, look at us.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: We started, we met when our kids were really small.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: We do lots of family things, our kids are Have grown together.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: They are very much identifying as cousins.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: They ha and friendship.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: They have a deep friendship.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: But we can get in the mix of mixed of that.
• 22:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I think that I you might have more to say about that, but I think it might be helpful actually for us to share with our listeners some of the things that we do, some of the ways that we have navigated.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Be having kids who are friends that are going to go through all of their very natural ups and downs, and how we have navigated talking or not talking about those things within our friendship.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: But let's put that on aside for a moment.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Were you going to say something?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Nope.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to say that when they so I'm talking adolescents right now, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: When they're little and they might need more help navigating, then we do need to probably step in more.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: As they get older, and like everything we're saying, we're wanting to empower them to problem solve, to do these things.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I really believe getting out of the way is essential.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: It is, we can kind of coach them on the side, but I do not agree with getting involved and totally talking with a friend, like friend to friends.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the parents getting in the mix of it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, can we talk about that for a moment?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think this is something, especially as our kids get over older, we struggle with.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's this assumption, I think, for for for many of us, myself included, that in order to have the kind of relationship with my kids where they come and talk to me about things, that I have to sort of take a role as being their best friend.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: As far as and respecting their privacy.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I'm saying I have a tendency to to think that what needs to happen in order for me to have that relationship is to meet them where they are all the time, friend to friend.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to start by talking about what the danger of that is.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have thoughts on that?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, go for it.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you going?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so I know that for me, one of the things that I work really hard at is trying to keep enough distance from what's happening for my kiddos that they don't make choices based on what they think I would want them to do.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or that um, you know, I want to be set that here's this neutral party again.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be able to be here with them to come and go from, as opposed to them feeling like um they are um, what am I trying to say?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of hard to articulate, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like the And here it is.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like the here's what I want to, here's how it shows up for me in my parenting is that I want to be uh here on the sidelines of the pool, the way you talk about, so that my kids can swim in the pool and come back, and swim in the pool and come back, the pool being their social situation.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Also Lisa's metaphor.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's Lisa's metaphor, right?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll put her in the show notes rather than me jumping in the pool with her, them, yes, and then swimming together to the edge of the pool.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think one of the dangers of not having that distance is we can live our kids' lives with them and through them.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which doesn't give them the space to make their own choices and trust that they are capable of making their own choices.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's where I go.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is so well said.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: What I want to add two things to that is I try and, if it's a family situation, right, that's what we're talking about here.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I will my line is sort of is there a really big harm?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like a like a deep danger, psychological physical danger.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Psychological danger versus are these just 14-year-old girls being 14-year-old hotels and being clumsy and awkward and making mistakes.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this like I am like bullying you?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a harm, harm?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then if it is in the harm category, um, I think it just opens the door for a bigger conversation of how are we gonna kind of find a repair so that our families can still function together.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: But if not, there has to be a lot of grace for the one that made the mistake or for the one that it because most of the time there's both parties.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: They're bouncing back and forth each other.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of grace and acceptance and curiosity for all as parents, we hold this, okay?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's one other thing I want to touch on, and that is that because our kids are differentiating from us right now, which means separating themselves, learning how to be their own people, separate from us.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: That can get confusing with family friends because they're separate, like let's just use our kids for an example.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: If if my oldest daughter is separating from me, yeah, she might be separating from everyone I'm associated with.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's it.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning she might be separating from you on some level.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: She also might be leaning on you in a different way, but you come with your daughters, and then there's a thing of like, I want to have my own identity, I don't want to be all family focused.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So she could also be separating from my daughters who are part of that separation.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard, isn't it, to like have our daughters not take that personal when really it has nothing to do with them.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's developmentally appropriate, and I think it's that's and I and it's I think it's really important to remember.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because we can get scared.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, our girls went through a little phase where they were not spending as much time together, and we were like, okay, how do we do this?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we made a conscious decision that we're just gonna stay grounded, we're gonna keep our relationship as is, yeah, and they don't have to participate as much.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they can come to us to talk about that kind of distance between themselves if they want to, and if they don't come talk to us about it, we let them do their thing.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we the question we kind of ask ourselves a lot is is this a problem that needs to be solved?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or what if this isn't a problem?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually that's again where we weigh it out.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's danger or emotional danger involved, then it's probably in the problematic realm more.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: But if not, and most of the time it's not, yeah, we trust that they're gonna get through it on some level.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say that this conversation today, as with all of our conversations, just settled my nervous system.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, me too.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I want us to sort of summarize as we wrap up here, okay?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say three things that I'm taking away from this and let me know if I'm missing something.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: One is that social conflict for our kids, pain and discomfort in social situations for our kids at this age, totally normal.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: When they're going through the sort of the separation and the connection and the sadness and the despair and the being left out and the leaving others out and all that stuff, totally normal stage of development.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where we say, what if it's not a problem?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: It'll move.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: What if it's not a problem?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, it is inevitable that our old stuff is going to be triggered when we're experiencing our kids' experience, right?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to know that and pay attention to that and come back to ourselves and calm our own nervous systems down first so that we can be an objective, neutral source for our children in those moments when they may ask for or require our support.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Number three, there's a difference between dangerous social dynamics and you know, I know we've had gotten questions on the podcast about how do we talk about drugs and alcohol and driving?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get to all of those more dangerous things, but right now we're talking about the non-dangerous, right?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: To to really understand that there's a difference and that our job is not to protect our kids from feeling their own pain.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, our job is to be that consistent neutral party that can hold their hand through their pain so that we're reminding them that they can make it through.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: What am I missing?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one thing that I want to just add is that because we didn't get into what do we do when we kind of consult our kids.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's some wonderful tools around offering empathy, yep.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And really emphasizing, I wonder what that felt like for your friend, or tell me more about how that feels for you.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because in those moments, we're actually teaching our kids how to self-reflect and we're teaching them critical thinking.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And those are two huge pieces that we do.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is our job to teach.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I do want parents to feel confident to take a stand on how to, I guess it's coaching on some level of how to coach them in a gentle, curious way, but it's really helping them come up with the answers.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: You also, when you gave those examples, you didn't use the word why, because we you said earlier that that will just automatically put our kids on the defense.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: They'll pull away rather than leaning in.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when you gave those examples, you didn't use the word why and you were just oozing curiosity, which we keep coming up with, right?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Curiosity, curiosity.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And the last thing I want to add is I know I skimmed over the brain stuff.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be efficient about it, but we're gonna put in the show notes some wonderful ways to educate you because education is so empowering.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's some great books.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you really want to understand the teenage brain and just get a deeper level around that, I gave a very, very short answer.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Deb, I love you.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank God I am mothering with you during this stage because holy crap, this is chaos at its most.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, chaos because it brings up all of our old shit.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, right?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are messy, beautiful beings.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Always and forever.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: See you next week.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.