Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Simple Secret to Feeling Included

Transcript

The Simple Secret to Feeling Included · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast. Two of your
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: friends are going to a music festival. You would love
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: to go. The concert's happening, they're going, you've heard about it.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Do you ask if you can tag along? Or is
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: it two's company, three's a crowd? If you just felt
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that internal cringe, that idea that they would have invited
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: me if they wanted me there, this episode is for
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: you and for your kids. Brand new research says that
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: cringe is lying to you and like I said, this
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: is something that we can teach our kids as well.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Stay with us Doctor's Desk, Happy Famili's podcast. Next, this
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: is The Happy Family's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every Day.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Kylie Colson, parents of six daughters, grandparents have one granddaughter,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: married for twenty seven years, twenty eight years coming up
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: to twenty eight years and still loving every single day.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: But Kylie, today's The Doctor's Desk episode. I want to
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: hit you up with the question. You're chatting with a
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: friend and she tells you that she's going to go
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: on a hike with another one of your friends. The
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: two of them they've got it planned. It's going to
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: be three or four hours doing a hike in a
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: place that you just love. And she's saying, I'm really
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: looking forward to this weekend. I'm going on this hike
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: with my friend and inside you're going on, but they
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: haven't invited me.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I'd love to go.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: That'd be so good. Do you say, have you got
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: room for one more?
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  Speaker 2: I've got so many better examples. Really, yeah, go on
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: attending a school information night for our kids to go
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: on a sixteen day trip to Germany. Yeah, that looked
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: so good. I literally put my hand up and said,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: can parents go?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: And I got to tag along on my kid's modern
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: history trip, which was phenomenal or.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: For Germany, and not only that, I haven't been to Europe.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't even have to be a supervisor. I literally
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: was a tag along. And then another friend, she decided
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: that she was going to Paris and England, and I
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: looked at her and I said that sounds awesome. Can
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: I come?
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: And she said yes, And I had the best time
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: of my life. I don't have any issues.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: You're not afraid to put out?
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: What about it?
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: What about if that friend was going with somebody already
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: other than their husband.
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  Speaker 2: So there have been plenty of times where people have
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: been doing things with other people and I've asked to
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: be included. I think that it really depends on the
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: you know, like if friend's going with her sister or
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: her best friend, I probably wouldn't put myself out there.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: But if I felt like there was room for more
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: and it wasn't going to change the dynamics in any
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: significant way, then I'd have no issues.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: So you and I've got a principle that we've kind
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: of lived by, and that is that it's not up
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: to us to make the decision for other people. And
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: this principle was taught to me way back in like
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: the early nineties. It was the week before you and
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: I got married. I'd just quit my radio job in
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: mount because I'd accepted a brand new job in Rockhampton.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: While we were waiting for the wedding, it was a
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: couple of days away, I got a job offer from
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: somebody in Canberra, and when I told him about the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Rockhampton job, he said, well, the Rockampton job's probably a
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: bit better for you in your career right now, but
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: it's not my decision to make it's your decision to make,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm offering you the job in Canberra. I know
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: you've already said yes to Rocky, but you could come
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: to Canberra and work for me. And here's what I
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: am offering. What do you think? His name was Steve Mummery.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: He works with Channel seven and telephone over in Perth now.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: And I remember thinking I'm going to take the job
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: in rock Hampton, which I did, and I told him that,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: but I remember the way he honored my ability to
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  Speaker 1: make that choice. He wanted me to have the options
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: and then I got to choose. And I know sometimes
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  Speaker 1: that can put people into an awkward situation, but that's
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: kind of something that we've lived by ever since.
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  Speaker 2: But I think it's also I mean, if your friend
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: kind of says, well, yeah, I guess you could come,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: then you you can kind of just make it well no,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: you just say, hey, it sounds like maybe not this time.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, you read the room and go maybe not.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the study, because this
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: is a doctor's desk episode, not a Justin and Kylie
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: story episode. This is a study by Givion colleagues. It
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: was published just a little while ago in Personality and
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Social Psychology bulletin, and it's one of the very first
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  Speaker 1: serious looks at what they call self invitation hesitation. And
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: what I want to say at the outset is I
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  Speaker 1: think that attitude or approach that you and I have
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: articulated is uncommon, and the research certainly would So.
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  Speaker 2: You're saying we're abnormal.
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  Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying uncommon? Is what I'm saying.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I'm using the word uncommon. So they did a series
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: of online studies with adults in the US and Canada
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  Speaker 1: and they were all scenario based. So read the scenario,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: tell us what you think. Some participants imagine being the
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: would be joiner, and others imagine that they were going
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: to be the plan holder, that is, the person being asked,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: can I join you? And what was really interesting in
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: this research is just over half of the people said yeah,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: I'd ask to join, So we're not that uncom Just
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: over half said I would ask to join. But and
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  Speaker 1: this is the gap that's fascinating here, About eighty percent
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: of plan holders said that they would have been glad
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: if the person invited themselves along.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: This is curious to me because why wouldn't they just say, Hey,
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  Speaker 2: I'm planning this thing and me and my friend are
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: doing it. Would you like to join us?
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Like?
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  Speaker 2: How is that hard?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: It's been a lifelong tripe of mine that people don't
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: extend the invitation.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: But they actually wish that you would invite yourself.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Exactly, Like, that doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, and statistically,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: you're unlikely to invite yourself, right, it's crazy to me.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Human behavior. We actually we.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Handicap ourselves every time. The researchers said this. They said,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: people are worried about annoying their friends, and they did
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: some follow up studies and trace that fear to a
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: specific belief, and the belief was this, they probably already
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: thought about invited me and decided not to. And the
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: data showed, well.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: They didn't. They created a plan on this, but with
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: somebody that was right in front of them, and they
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: were having a conversation exactly and didn't think about anything
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  Speaker 2: further than that.
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  Speaker 1: This is what the researchers say. They say, the data
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: showed both the fear and the belief are generally unfounded.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Mostly nobody decided anything. You just weren't in the room
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: when the plan formed. Yeah, it's exactly what you said.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: So this was a study on adults, and I think
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: that there's relevance for you and I like we've talked
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: on the podcast before about the liking gap, right, We've
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: talked about how we just don't think that people like
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: us as much as they actually do. We're always worried
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: that people are judging us, and this sits in that
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: kind of arena. Recently, I had Nicholas Epley talking about
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: being a little more social on the podcast. We did
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: it over two episodes because he was so fascinating and
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: so great to talk to. And what is really going
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: on here is that people like us more than we think.
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  Speaker 1: People rate conversations with strangers better than they thought that
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  Speaker 1: they would be, They stay involved in conversations with strangers
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  Speaker 1: longer than they thought that they would. We're just systematically
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: persist and inaccurate with our forecasts about how things will
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: go socially for us.
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  Speaker 2: It's curious. I had a conversation with one of my
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: closest friends a few weeks back, and when we lived
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: near each other, we were exercise buddies. We did everything together.
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  Speaker 2: We went to the gym every day, we ran, we
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: rode our bikes, but she had been physically fit her
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: whole life, and she was dragging me along, and I
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: did things because I loved spending time with her, not
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: because I was competent to any of it. And then
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: we moved away, and I have never found a gym buddy,
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  Speaker 2: an exercise buddy, a friend, champion who kind of cheers
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  Speaker 2: me on the way this person did. And recently we
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: got together and we went for a run and she
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  Speaker 2: I just said to her, I said, I so miss
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: the days when we were together. I said, because doing
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  Speaker 2: exercise is so hard without you. But what surprised me
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: was not that, because I've known that my whole life,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: like my whole time with her, was the response that
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: she gave me. Here. I was thinking that I had
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  Speaker 2: been kind of holding her back because she was so
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  Speaker 2: much more competent in every area, faster, and she just said, Kylie,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: she said, when I think back to that time, she said,
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  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for the time that we spent together
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: because I was a better person because you encouraged me
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: to get out. And it really impacted me because I
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: had no idea. I had no idea. I thought I
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: was the one that was kind of just dragging her,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: you know, like holding her back.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: It's a perfect story and for the study.
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  Speaker 2: So many times I've had conversations like that where I've
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  Speaker 2: kind of felt like I'm the lesser kind of in
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: the party, and only to find out that my contribution
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  Speaker 2: has actually impacted them as much, if not more than
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: their contribution to me. And I just it's such a
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  Speaker 2: beautiful reminder.
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  Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about the practical
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: implications of this, and not just for our own lives,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: but also for our kids. Stay with us, We're back.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, all right, Kylie, Let's get
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: into the practical implications of this. I think that it's
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: a principle that's worth teaching to our kids. Even though
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: the research is on adults, so we can't actually generalize
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: it to kids. My guess is that it's going to
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: be broadly applicable. I think it is probably generalizable. The
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: principal matters here. So let's go to the playground self invitation.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Can I play? You know who's really good at that?
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Toddlers?
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, little kids are great. Can I play? Or they
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: just walk in and start playing?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: But what about middle childhood and adolescents?
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  Speaker 2: It's a little bit tricky.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I'm not walking over there, I'm not introducing myself. It's
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the hardest sentence. Once kids get i'd say north of
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: about seven, maybe eight or seven.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I was going to say about ten. Yeah, I think
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  Speaker 2: that they really become very conscious of it by then.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: So the research that we're talking about here gives us
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: language for what's happening, and that is that kids, just
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: like adults, overestimate how unwelcome they'll be. They think they're
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: not going to want to play. And when when your
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: child says they don't want me to join in, the
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: honest answer, and we say this to them a lot,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: but the honest answer is you don't know that because
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: you haven't given them a chance to work out whether
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: they do or don't want you to play well.
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  Speaker 2: And there will be times though, where they will be
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: told no, that's different, And when they have those experiences,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: it's helping them to kind of put that into context
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: as well. How many times have you kind of walked
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: into a room and somebody's given you.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: The look right, and then you find out that they
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: weren't actually giving you a look, like they.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Didn't even see you, that they were in their own
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: space in their own head.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: It looks on the face. Yeah, yeah, So I think
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: it's worth talking about kids about and just saying asking
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: to join in. It's not rude. It's actually a really
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: great idea. It's a compliment. It tells people that their
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: play looks like fun, the stuff that they're getting up to,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: their plans look like they're going to be great, and
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: you want to be a part of it. Their company's
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: worth having. Most people, based on this research, are actually
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: really pleased to be asked like three is a crowd,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: and we like a crowd. Let's make this crowd. Let's
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: make it fun.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I think the counter to that is to teach our children,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: when they're having conversations with other people to actually extend invitations.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, if you're doing this thing, you going to
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: the movies with a couple of friends, it doesn't hurt
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: to invite some others along.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: And if you don't want to include others, then it's
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: probably not a conversation you should be having.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Did I just say going to the movies? That is
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: so so two thousand and six. I don't know what happened.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Well, they could be doing grandma hobbies.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're ah Yeah, we talked about that the other
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: week as well. Yeah. So in other words, what you're
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: saying is, if you are the plan holder, if you're
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the organizer, or if you're in the group of people
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: who are organizing the thing, it's really great to say, well,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: who else can we invite?
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Actually, in our local church community, we just have a
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: women's thread. Everybody that goes to church is in this
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: thread if they want to be.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: And.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: It literally somebody will just be Hey, I'm heading off
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: to the movies this weekend. Does anyone want to join me?
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Or I'm going to go and do a sunrise hike
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: on Saturday? Who's in? And they might only get three
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: or four takers, but the acknowledgment is I want to
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: do this? Who wants to join me?
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So let's talk about teenagers just briefly, and then
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: we need to wrap up. The standard response from a
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: teenager is they would have asked me. That's what adults
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: would say as well, right, they would have asked me.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: And that feels really it's really limiting.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: It's a limiting belief.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: And it feels kind of heavy when you're a teenager
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: because everybody can see what's going on and if you're
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: not included, it's the phoemot thing. It really hurts. I
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: think again, we need to have this conversation with our kids.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: It's the same principle. The stakes feel higher, but the
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: fact that your team is inferring that they've been excluded
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: isn't necessarily true. What's most likely is that a bunch
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: of teenagers were getting together, and they were together, they
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: were in the moment. They weren't thinking about all the
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: other people that hadn't been invited. They were just like, yeah,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: let's do it.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: This is awesome way.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: It's true that sometimes they actually were excluding people, but
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: most of the time they're not. And just to quick hey,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I saw you guys are doing this. Have you got
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: room for one more? Such an easy question to ask,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: and most of the time they'll get a yes. Maybe
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: every now and again that will be accompanied by some
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: eye rolling yeah, of course, yep, you can come to
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: But more often than not, I think that the data
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: seems to indicate well, and.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Like I said, there will be times where like just logistically,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: they might just have to say yeah, not this time.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: And I think it's really important for us to help
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: our children have a healthy narrative around rejection as opposed
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: to making it personal, and.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: The best way to do that is to model it yourself.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: So if you're the schoolgate and you want to catch
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: up for a coffee with a mum because a couple
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: of the other mums are doing it, and say, hey,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: can I join you? I'd love to get to know
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: you guys a bit more. And then if it doesn't
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: work out, you can say to the kids, I asked,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and they said no, but they probably had stuff to
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: talk about, like it wasn't personal. Just let it be anyway.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: That's what the research is. That's our Doctor's Desk episode today.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: I hope you like it. The take home message I
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: think from the research is is this in essence, next
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: time you want to join someone's plans, ask because they're
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: probably going to be a lot less bothered by it
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: than you would predict, and they're probably going to be
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: far more pleased by it. And then your kids watching
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: that you can do it and seeing that you can
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: handle it when it doesn't work out, they learn about
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: relationships and belonging. I just think they need to see
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: that we're dealing with so much loneliness in our society
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: at the moment, showing your kids that wanting to be
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: included is something that we don't want to hide. It's
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: just what humans are. There's just so much value in it.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: We'll link to the study in the show notes for
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: those who are curious about it. The Happy Families Podcast
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: audio engineering just rule on Bridge Media. Additional admin support
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: from Mim Hammond's I'll Do Better Tomorrow. It's back tomorrow
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: on the pod. Join us then for more as we
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: celebrate the winds and losses in our family. This week
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: it's the Happy Families Podcast. Thanks for being with us.