Latest / Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE / Naoise Ó Conchubhair // Drawing from Here
Transcript
- Danielle: Nisha O'Cuher is the digital design director at Detail Design Studio based here in Dublin, whose practice spans typeface, digital identity, motion, brand systems, UX and front end design. All in the context of an Irish organisation trying to communicate something authentic about who they are. The question of what makes an Irish digital identity feel right rather than just look right is a design problem that we will explore today. He's been working in Irish design for long enough to have watched a generation of his projects move through the culture and to understand what lasts and what actually doesn't last. In parallel to his professional work, He has maintained strong ties to design education and award initiatives, contributing as a lecturer, a mentor, a jury member across national and international platforms. I had the pleasure of meeting Nisha many years ago as a judge on the ISCD, the International Society of Typographic Design, student assessment, and it was it was just it was a great experience to be an assessor. But what I did come away with was thinking, wow, Nisha is just such a lovely person. So I'm really looking forward to speaking with him today and I'm delighted that he has agreed to be on rough draft. So welcome, Nisha. Naoise: Thanks Danielle for that welcome. all all of those different things. I I I just thought I was coming on here to talk about type. we we we we'll get to that. But but yeah, th th thank you so much. And maybe before I start, congratulations to you on running the Bounce Festival for the last couple of years. Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: Yeah, I think I think the work that you do with with Bounce is is really vital. And you kind of started when there was probably a little bit of a lull in the design community in in Ireland and and and then Bounce just bounced bounced onto the scene. and and and it's so so vibrant and kind of yeah, punctuates the design yearly calendar I I think at this stage. So yeah, fit fair fair play and thank you for having me. Danielle: that's lovely for you to say that. It's great comments. Thank you. Yeah. So it did actually just bounce onto the scene. People were a bit like, what is this? But now I think people are sure of what it is. And you know, this podcast is a direct you know, kind of step from that. So giving that platform to the Irish design community, it's it's really important. but you might start at your own beginnings, I guess. So, you know, your own journey into college. I think that's always interesting for people to know how you kind of started off, what inspired you to study design in the first place. And I know you've quite got got quite an interesting family background, so perhaps you might tell us about how that shaped your interests. Naoise: Yeah, absolutely. and it's interesting like you w when you sit down you have to kinda think about these things. I suppose for years that the the simple answer I I I I could give to this is that that my dad is a furniture designer and his dad, my grandfather, was a craftsperson, a jack of all trades craftsperson. So they're kind of people who yeah, e even so my grandfather probably didn't realise even what design was at that stage, but the the the idea of kind of making and building systems. And I often kinda relate that to, you know, even digital design now, that there's kinda commonality between more kind of primitive making types. But but that that's the simple answer. But thinking about it a little bit more deeply, on my my mother's side, the maternal side, my grandfather would have been a leader in the Irish language movement and an and an innovator and was heavily involved in kind of the modernization of the Irish language and and would have been coming at it I suppose from from a yeah from a modernist perspective. He founded he had a new a publishing company in the fifties Later, had there was a there was a record label. he was instrumental in the founding of of Guy Lynn and then a a newspaper called Nish, which operated I think in in the 80s, but but the echoes of that are still Irish language publications like Fo Funchie all at the origins of that that come from that. So not not not an artist or a creative person or a designer by any means, but definitely kind of a a forward thinker. but but there's other things. like e digging even deeper I was kind of thinking about it again like both both of my both of my grandfather grand grandmothers worked which particularly I suppose for my grandmother from Clawton County Offaly would would have been unusual at the time so my my grandmother ran the the post office which particularly at that time unfortunately the post office is now gone it's subsumed into the petrol station but at that moment in time it was it was central to the community they they had the telephone exchange there it was probably thinking back the first time I saw a computer was in was in Granny's house So yeah the the the there's all of that and and and I suppose back to kind of the simple notion that you know my my my dad was is quite creative. the th there was there was a jump, I suppose. Then later later my own my own mother was involved in the founding of of T G Carter, the Irish language TV station. And and because of that, like particularly my grand grand grandmother's house, it'd be a great place to go. There's like there's always books because of the publishing company, there was all all sorts of kind of media and books and magazines and remember like it was a houseful of atlases. So as a a potential graphic designer kind of see seeing that stuff and just being able to spend a lot of time there. and and I'd say so somewhere there Is where the jump from kind of the hands-on making and stuff I would have been doing with my dad in the garage at home, the the the the jump happened there. So so the it it's kind of that that combination of making but then communicating, I suppose. And then later just getting towards kind of thinking about college, as as a teenager, the internet was happening w w when I was that age, and I remember like the a silly story, but I remember trying to design Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: magazine, a print a printed magazine. I got the whole thing done all all the way through and then as a teenager you realised that you know the c cost of printing is prohibitive and th this new thing, wh whatever application I was using at the time, there was like a button to kind of convert your magazine into a website. And that like that was a that was a penny drop moment that for Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: free, I suppose, that that things that I made or things that I was saying could be published to the whole wide world with the click of a click of a button. And I think that that's the the moment that probably kinda set set me Danielle: Mm. Naoise: woke me up to the idea of of studying graphic design. I found my way into the visual communication department in NCAD and worked there with a lot of amazing tutors and lecturers and thinking of David Kiran in particular who probably set me we're we'll we'll talk I said at the beginning there that that will most likely any conversation with me in design always comes back to type and it's probably an NCAD that that that kind of kicked off first. But Yeah, that's that that's how I got into college anyway. Danielle: Yeah. It's interesting that you're you know, your the the your your mother setting up the TG Cahar and the kind of that through line of like the Irish language and then typography kind of finding its way in there and that mix has kind of underpinned a lot of what you do and a lot of what you did particularly at the final stages of the degree that you did. and I just like to talk just it's a really good timing now, I guess, because the graduate shows have kind of have just kind of finished up. there's a lot of students that are on their summer holidays, but they're coming into final year next year. And I think it's important to kind of mention, you know, that final year project that they're going to come back to do their major project, just like typically 16 weeks of work, you know, and they're not going to get that time to delve into something. But was it a strategic decision for you to pick type for your final year project? Was it something that you thought, okay, this is this is gonna get me or land me the the career I want, or was it just that you were really interested to explore type in a greater way? Naoise: de definit definitely not deliberate. no. I I I kind of fell into it. I I I suppose yeah, I mentioned NCAD. I went, I I did Erasmus actually, which is kind of interesting for to to talk about for for students now that that opportunity is there and it's getting like I I know we spend a lot of time in IDT, that's an opportunity that the students have. and that and that experience for me was transformative. I had the opportunity to go to study in Lati in Finland, and it's actually there. one of the projects I did in Finland with the type. Danielle: Mm. Naoise: designer Lucas de Groot was to design a very a very wonky but complete alphabet type face and from there I was kinda was kind of hooked. I think other things just sort of think thinking about talking to you today and kind of thinking about kind of a little bit of navel gazing on my own practice but there's definitely an element of kind of control of control freak in me as a as a designer. I think that I think that's an occupational hazard for a lot of designers. But the re the way I work so I'm kind of the way we will talk maybe a little bit about in web development and coding and things like that. The the way I got into those again was just a way like way and means to to actually communicate. Like get getting in at the the nuts and bolts of how it all works and and and being able to fully fully control the message or the form of whatever I was I was doing. So suddenly and and I suppose even before that like I was kind of drifting. I was always probably typographically minded without maybe knowing it but always wanting to kinda I I I suppose I I was never comfortable with any particular typeface. I was always trying to bend it or modify it a little bit to you know just to fit the the project or or whatever I was trying to trying to convey. So going to Finland and learning how to actually design a typeface from scratch was again kind of intoxicating. this way of kind of, you know, I I can fully, fully kind of craft the shape or the look of whatever I'm doing. so that's that that that's the the the practical part of it. but in terms of the subject matter, again it was kind of by accident. We've kind of talked a little bit about my upbringing background in the Irish language but but an important piece I I mentioned there was that you know my grandfather and my mum as well are very much of a modern view of the Irish language and I suppose the Gaelic alphabet was decr discontinued by by the government by decree in the in the sixties. So that to me growing up and and disappearance of kind of Irish pub type always seemed so twee and just just didn't you know didn't didn't didn't fit with my I suppose design sensibilities and it was only NCAD that I think it was David Karen that put me on to I went on sort of a mi mystery tour. It was the The lettering on the B series Irish banknotes got got me really interested. It it the if if you have a look at it, it's it's kind of this very there's a modernity to it that I'd never seen before in in a Gaelic letter form. and I and I went to try and figure out where that came from. And in a roundabout way, it was a conversation with David Karen that sent me to the the Kilkenny Design Workshop. Library pointed me towards the the Type competition, I think it was 1976. Design an Irish typeface, and there's a typeface there by William Kern, who is actually another person of note at the moment. I wasn't particularly aware of William Kern's work that looks a little bit like the typeface on the banknote type, but it's actually not it's not it. and finally I managed to track it down to designer craftsperson called Michael Biggs, who now in hindsight, his his his work is is all yeah, it it it's all over. So Michael Biggs cut the lettering at the Garden of Remembrance and then up in in Arbor Hill, which is probably his masterpiece, it's the proclamation in both languages in I don't know, it's like a fifty foot wide wall. It's it's it's incredible if you if you've never seen it. And and again, that was just that was just eye opening. and you can see just as I'm kinda talking about this, this is the rabbit hole I was kinda going down and and I suppose. I I I was I was definitely interested. I wro I wrote my thesis on kind of a related topic was kind of the iconography of the GAA. So you know I was definitely kind of l waking up, I suppose, to forms of modernity within kind of Irish design and the Irish language that I wasn't fully. But the degree show, the degree project started more as I suppose I wouldn't say a homage, but more of more as a research piece. And I began by I I digitized the lettering in the garden of remembrance. and again I suppose, you know, did this kind of control freak thing. It was like, yeah, like that I was kinda yeah, that that's good, but it's not it's not my voice. And and and suddenly from that it it just spiraled into I suddenly was drawing like that Yeah, the these shapes that are def definitely inspired by by Biggs. But you know, I was in I was in a great class in N C A D and Yeah, I'm kind of talking about the the academic staff there who were amazing, but there was also a group of people there, like I'm thinking of Sean Mommy and Rob Farley, and Andrew McAmee who we went on to find found post and and we were all just obsessed with with type but mo mo modern type and and the this there's things that that they you know we were all kind of Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: working off off each other's idea keep pushing each other forward and it was probably more that kind of that modern conversation that that more so influenced where where that typeface ended up being but yeah look I I I I suppose that's a very, very long winded way of saying how how how I got there. And then you you were asking I suppose was it w was it a deliberate decision that it it absolutely wasn't. and and I've given that same piece of advice that you're almost sorta saying there to students is that you should try and be strategic. Find something you're interested in. Find something that's Danielle: Mm. Naoise: that that that'll resonate, which is again what happened with with Insular. It just it just piqued people's interest and and I kind of went on a on a mystery tour based on that project. So I'm still talking about it now, nearly twenty years later. but but I do I do often give that advice to students is tr try and do that. But but I know as I'm saying it, like it's easier said than done. I I definitely didn't do it deliberately. I you know I Danielle: Mm. Naoise: It it it it just kinda came as a natural part of whatever my design thinking was at at that time. but i if if you are a a a designer that can control things better than I can, yeah, absol absolutely. I'd I'd be I'd be pursuing thing things like that because yeah, it's it's extraordinary where where where it where it leads you. I don't think I'd be don't think I'd be where I am. I don't think I'd be practicing and doing what I do without that that project. Danielle: And do you you're you're kind of you were mentioning there about like, you know, your grandfather's kind of rejection of this kind of Twee type design and this stuff. So that kind of rejection of the kind of romanticized Irish script in favor of some kind of something that was more modern, where did that sensibility come from? Or was it just that you had this one click to a website? Naoise: Hmm. Yeah. Danielle: understanding and thought, well that's not gonna work online. Was was that does that kind of start to flavour your view a little bit that what doesn't doesn't work on screen or was it something else or was it just a matter of taste? Naoise: in terms of shaping the letter forms, it was it was definitely and still it like still is a a display dieface. That's again the lovely thing about having this conversation as I was going through kind of the archives and I was looking I was looking at illustrator files from two thousand and nine I found I was like looking at stuff and Danielle: Illustrator one. Naoise: Illustrator one, God knows, yeah. but yeah, so I I again I it wasn't you know, there was no grand master plan. It was just mate making something I you know, I suppose the the brief to myself or what I was trying to achieve w was was something that that felt kind of graphically new and fresh and was inherently Irish but without yeah, wit without any of that that baggage that that goes with some of the more some of the more traditional typefaces. but again like the there is like the there's you know, the you're you're I'm kinda b building on something there that that certainly wasn't the the first. Like o other stories that I was looking at was the work of Cull M'Loughlin who who designed the Cullum Killer typeface and That was designed I think in the nineteen twenties, but all all of the the same ideas that I'm talking about, probab probably to it a a much much higher standard in that that's the typeface that's still, you know, the FA FAI were using it. that that that that's a really, really successful attempt, I suppose, at at modernizing the the the Irish character. so but but yeah, but like back to the idea of yeah, I'm saying I was kind of obsessed with Webb at the time, but Webb really didn't enter my my thinking in relation to that project. It probably isn't terribly legible down at down at small sizes. It's very much for use, kind of big and large, big and bold and kind of makes makes a statement. Danielle: Mm-hmm. And then I suppose just to track your career, so leaving that project behind, leaving Insular behind, and then, you know, entering the industry, what was your first port of call? Naoise: Yeah. so I suppose there's there's two two threads to that in terms of where Insular led me. We'll we'll talk a little bit about my kind of teaching and academic work. But in in in a sense, I I I did get a job in industry straight away, but but the other weird thing that happened to me was that I was sort of thrown into academic circles really early on. Danielle: Mm. Naoise: the team in academic staff and TU Dublin were and have always been so generous to me over over the years and I think round about the time I finished college, A ty Marianne Bulger and Claire Bell were curating the A Type I conference here. I got to contribute to that in in kind of a small way and then and then later the same team set up face forward exhibition where I did actually present a peer peer-reviewed paper on a on a related topic on research I did on the on on Post logo. That was very that was much more research led. But I've I've always kind of been in involved in in academic and and that that's kind of where where that started. in in terms of actually working in a studio and and sort of a different thread of my creative practice was that I got I got an internship in a web agency called Archivo straight out of college. a guy called Martin Casey picked me up there through the Air Spider Awards which is still operating to to this day. but but that like that that was that was huge. I can and you have remember that was that was peak economic crash. So to kinda come out of college and this guy offering you a job in in a like that again, like i a di i i it is a different thread at all, but so I d you know, my my practice has kind of drifted into digital design and development and and the work that I did in archi archibo who still to this day are like they're they they're a large-scale web agency was working with again like at s similar to the academic thing just being thrown in at the deep end I was working with the department of the T Shook working with DAA and big clients, who else? It was I I Beckon. The kind of work of that scale, like very, very corporate. but all all of kind of the I was you know, when when I was in there I was I I was just learning. I was like I was like a sponge, I was sort of trying to soak it all up. All of the things that I didn't learn in like the the nature, even even today we're we're teaching graphic design it's not that's the you know, things search engine optimization, the development servers, all of that stuff it I I I was kind of pi pi picking up. in in archibo. but but they're definitely and and again like things that are still still to this day like the the web agency I've I've always sort of I'm still in touch with people in archivos a brilliant time there and and and there's a whole cohort of companies operating in Dublin who are kind of the the web industry and and they don't talk to the graphic design industry which is which is the fence that I that I jumped over a after so I spent Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Naoise: year and a half or something quite kind of graduated to having a full time job there. and then luckily a con a conversation with Mel O'Rourke in CI Studio Creative Inc. it was at the time. I ended up getting a job there and I suppose I kind of jump jumped the fence into you know design design studio land. It's a it's a different different different group of people. but yeah so so like yeah that that that's probably the origins and kinda how not not Danielle: Mm. Naoise: Not by design but the that that project kinda sent sent sent me on my work merry way and yeah, teed me up and I spent an amazing I think it was five five years in in five amazing years in in Creative Inc. So yeah. Danielle: Mm. Amazing. And yeah, that the face forward was brilliant. It was such a great, great event. I loved every everything about that. It was fantastic. so I'm glad you mentioned mentioned it. and it's funny that you're talking about like this the silo of, you know, the web companies that don't talk to the design companies. It's just like I'm sick of hearing about silos. We need to break them all down. We all need to just work together. But I suppose then Naoise: Yeah. Danielle: Your next project that I love to kind of talk about, and we have a a a a clip is the beautiful story of a young Irish boy called Ben and his sister Sertia, who can transform into a seal. That's no spoiler alerts there, it's not giving away anything. But it's a beautiful story and it I think it won or it won and was nominated for a hundred countless awards across across the world, Song of the Sea. and you had the opportunity to develop the typeface for that. So before you speak about that, we'll just watch a little clip that. Naoise: yeah, like that that that's that's going back again, kinda d dig digging into the archives, kinda having a look through I suppose let let's not forget that the the nature of the talk today is kinda rough draft. So I was kinda try I was trying to find the the origins of of that. But it but again, like just before kind of speaking about again, like just just the opportunity like the opportunity to work on that at whatever stage I was in my critic was still only kind of starting out. but yeah the the I suppose the faith and the trust that that put in me to to to work on that. And I wasn't sorry it wasn't working. You know, the first little bits we're talking about, you know, good college projects, yeah, they're kind it's sort of sing singular work, but probably everything from that point onwards is you know, the th there's multi multiple multiple cooks involved. But at at the same time, like yeah, like I we we came we came up with this this notion of trying to I suppose speak in the voice of so that you mentioned it there this this two characters we've we've been and Searsha so and actually sorry it wasn't even that it was the so Circe transforms into a into a silky so we we had Searsha hand which was kind of the the the child's voice and then a more calligraphic letter form which again it was it was found that that that one was found and customized. but that was we we call that silk silky scripts. and it was kind of that that interplay of something quite quite kind of a very kind of crude letter form. It was like obviously it a child wouldn't necessarily be able to draw to to that level but we kind of wanted to sort of imbue that that sort of sense of it kind of being child childish and that that that it was that it was the the child child's own voice. and and yeah other other things kinda jumping out of the kind of comfort zone a little bit like I'm I'm very much you kinda mentioned sort of modern modernism and things being quite quite maybe sparse and minimal a lot of the time. So somet something that was very much hand drawn. I was kind of looking at photos there. D the the the the genesis of that dive face is something we we kinda scribbled in the studio. Now there were there were what what I'd kind of forgotten about looking through the the archival material that there was there was a moment where it was going to be a little bit more of a kind of a gothic typeface. We were you know, the the brief was open. It didn't have to be a typeface. but I think yeah just w once once we kinda hit hit on the the the Searsha Hand typeface, we all kind of got got a bit excited about that. and then and then ran ran with it from there. Like again, like l lovely things about so I should I should mention as well, like the collaboration obviously was with Cartoon Saloon who whose movie it movie it was. So you know, the again the the the the trust and the kind of collaboration there to get to get to see a rough draft of a full feature film. So we we we we watched in again in order to sort of inform the design process we we saw a draft of the f where it hadn't the it hadn't been colored yet. so a l a line a line drawing rough cut of the full movie which we watched which was which was lovely. and yeah from there just like I I suppose yeah like something something like a movie kind of just has all these Danielle: Mm. Naoise: outputs, but the ma the main thing I suppose was doing doing the title sequence. and yeah, do doing doing a piece of work like that where you know we got we got to go, we went to we went to Lighthouse Cinema and we saw like see seeing your your your handiwork up on Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: on a big screen is kind of a kind of a thrill. But you kinda yeah you you you you keep you keep moving and it's not something I reflect on very much. It's only kinda when somebody asks and but it it did pop up recently. It's back on it's back on Netflix. and and again just seeing like it's like my god there's my there's my handwriting essentially on on on a little Netflix thumbnail. yeah it it's cool and I don't think like I suppose you know when you're Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Naoise: When you d maybe there there's kind of bits of advice to to to students or y young designers. When you when you're in the thick of that, I I don't like I'm kinda looking back and we're talking about it kind of fondly now. When I was in the thick of it, I I didn't fully appreciate what what I w what I was doing, the significance of it like to be working on a movie that that was like it was it was nominated for an Oscar. didn't win the Oscar unfortunately. Danielle: Mm. Mm. Naoise: But yeah, to to kind of contribute to that and to contribute to a company like Cartoon Saloon who are just yeah, like globally recognized and making work that that no other animation studio in the world can can kind of keep up with. that that that was something very special. And the the other the other thing actually just as a as a side note that kind of came out of the drawer when I was looking at the back over the sketches for for Song of the Sea was the the actual the the cartoon saloon identity itself, so their their logo, which as it transpires was the last thing I worked on in Creative Inc. before making my my next professional hop. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: But it it was it was rejected. it's one it's one of my favourite little marks that I ever did and I thought I thought it was perfect because a lot of a lot of the cartoon saloon movies have have these little blinking eyes and I it you know the double O in the word cartoon and I and I and I thought like I genuinely thought I'd kinda I'd nailed it. and and sent it off. I unfortunately didn't maybe I'm Danielle: No Yeah. Yeah. Naoise: persuasive in real life. I I didn't get didn't get to present it and it was fl it was flat rejected and I don't know what so it was f again actually something to to say out loud. I I was at I I met the CI studio gang recently they're they're they were celebrating 30 years on the road which is like what what an extraordinary achievement and and I met Phil who who who Phil Mitten who's since moved on to set up opposite studio but it was Phil that actually finished it and if you look at the version I did and and the version Phil did there there there is there's definitely a similarity but but the version Phil did found found found favor and is still still in use today. It does it doesn't have the blinking Danielle: Whoa. You don't seem sore about that at all. No, no. It's it's it's actually it's really playful. You know, it is really playful. It actually reminds me of Comedy Central. They kinda do a lot of really kind of playful things with their identity as well. But actually it's funny because you've mentioned that you're like you like to control things and you know, and then you're kinda putting a spin on this kind of playful identity and the blinking and like, you know, the little kind of nuanced nudges and things. how do you think that Naoise: Yeah. Danielle: playfulness and then I suppose maybe the opposites of playfulness could be seen as kind of rigor. How do you kind of bring the two together or, you know, i in your controlling mind as such? Like how do you kind of reconcile that? Naoise: Yeah. I think some something that I th I I was thinking about in in Breppin for today was I I I definitely when I was in college I was definitely kind of of a of a modernist, very strict, modernist international kind of style mold. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: And and in a way going back to the Insular project, that's that's still a bit kind of kind of poe face, but it's definitely stepping away into sort of designing and I and I think I kinda realised later in college maybe the the Finnish experience and definitely later on is that that great, great design, like truly great design comes from designing for context. You know, you d you don't bring I I I I kind of find you know, the more the more I kind of delve into it I I find kind of that the the modernist doctrine a l a little bit broken. There there's there's parts of it that that that I agree with. Like the the other the other b another bugbear in mind to just on on that kind of thought is that people talk we we talk a lot about minimalism or people outside of design world talk talk about minimalism. and that that minimalism kind of r reducing things to their you know to the to the bare minimum to me is just good design. it's not you know it it that the the what what they're describing is is good design. It's not min there there is such thing as as as minimal design but but generally when people are talking about min minimalism, it's just kind of good pure design. And it's about, I suppose, boiling things down to their essence, but also kind of reading reading the brief and designing for the the the context. Like you know, you you you you you could do the best Helvetica modernist logo for a company like Cartoon Saloon, but like it would fall flat. They're not they're not a corporation. You're you're speaking mainly to to kids. that's that's kind of the the target audience and you want you want something to that re resonates. resonates with whatever that audience might be resonates with with kids. You want the viewer to be able to kind of see themselves in in in in the work or to be you know to be able to to engage with it. It needs to to speak the language of who whoever's whoever's looking at it. So I suppose yeah like I I I definitely left those very strict doctrines behind a long time ago. But it does and and maybe the reason just for kind of talking about minimalism, like kind of separating that from like modernism is not minimalism. they're they're they're different things and you can have you can have design that's very expressive but that is also that is also minimal, that is re reductive, that is if you know, if if efficient with the marks you're you're making. So yeah, so I think I think that kind of that that colours the approach to Cartoon Saloon and it it colours my approach to any any topic. I suppose, yeah, some some of my later work is maybe a little bit more serious because again the you know the tar target audiences were serious. I I you know, we we kind of moved on to you know, the the work we do in in in detail is generally always kind of some in some way kind of culturally or socially connected and and and that that that brings with it a particular vocabulary. so you know work we've done with IMA or with kind of the big corporates, you've worked with, you know, Twitter and things like that. That that that brings with it its own language. And you you know as as as a designer to be to be versatile, to be functional, you you need to you need to be able to move move with that and not not get wrapped up in trying to put strict kind of containers on it and I can realise the contradiction in me saying that in that I am quite kind of controlling in how I approach my design. but yeah I think I think designing for designing for context is is probably the the key to all Danielle: Yeah. and I think that's the great challenge of good design is that that reductiveness, but still have an expression, is is what good design is, you know. And I think it can be it can be kinda difficult to separate that from, you know, as you said, like just make it Helvetica n nice and simple. You know what I mean? I can just And and kind of saying, well, that's the same. They're completely different because of, as you say, because of context and because of experience as well. and you know, you do need to work within those institutions who have that weight behind them and that's you know, maybe that seriousness. But I think what from looking through your work, I think what you've managed to do is create really clear systems, really kind of structured systems but that have a little bit of interplay some of them have the addition of a little bit of motion but like in in general the even the typographic solutions you can see they have the ability to move they have a the the type itself has a rhythm and a pace you know so it's not just this kind of static minimalist or minimal design you know it's it's done in in a very craftsmanship way, if if that's it's that's the way of explaining it. So there has r has a sense of personality which I absolutely adore. I think that's th the the challenge of designing with little. But designing so much with little is is actually really, really difficult. But just to pick up on your point about, you know, your minimalist kind of approach and yes, your links and and your your background and and being thrown into design education, do you feel that design education is doing enough to teach other design histories, you know, maximalism and and bringing in other maybe non-traditional styles, periods, designers, etcetera. What do you think? Naoise: That's that's that's a big question. and I don't know I don't know if I'm if I'm fully qualified to to speak to that really, in that I I'm only I my my my academic practice has probably expanded a little bit lately, but it I'm I'm not. I'm not probably on the on the call face to be able to answer that properly. but definitely I know the the the mindset in the institutions that I am connected to, so between IEDT in particular, but TU and NCD as well. it's it there there is definitely a very broad s set set of practitioners there and and and ideas. but it's but it's difficult. I suppose yet you have to kind of balance you know you can you can't you can't run before you can walk, you know. there there is there is an importance to teaching some some of those you know the the more the more obvious parts of design as as kind of the foundation blocks as b before you start jumping off. So yeah, but but definitely more more and more we're we're we're so conscious as as teachers to try and represent represent everybody, represent every every voice. I know for sure the the classes even in themselves are becoming more diverse in the types of students that that are taking on graphic design. So that that in itself determines kind of the need to to you know to to r represent every facet you possibly can without I suppose you know that that that like we're we're into something really interesting there with kind of any type of teaching but for particularly kind of gr design teaching is kind of how how how how do you teach kind of comprehensively how how do you show a student everything they need to know without overwhelming them and losing them along the way. so y you know, y that that that's always kind of a tight rope you you you walk as a a a a as a teacher is always like I I suppose my my philosophy with teaching is always trying to to encourage and try and I I I suppose guide students, you know, think thinking of of my own kind of student experience and thinking back on on kind of the teachers that were of most consequence to me, that they didn't necessarily they didn't say you must you must read this or you must look at this, but they they kind of they just gently they they they sent they they pushed me in that in that general direction. And and I suppose the best learning I think comes from the things you're kind of interested in. So if you if we can just sort of guide guide the students to roughly where where they're meant to be and put putting all the things in front of them and and and almost allowing them to, you know, to to find what what's of most interest to them. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: So yeah, but but look, I'll finish that by saying like saying that that that I'm only kind of only still still learning as as as a design teacher. but it's it's definitely like it's it's a really good question. You can see how how we've kind of drifted from a simple question of how what what do you show them to to how how you teach. So yeah. Danielle: Yeah. And I think you're right. I mean, I think just setting the scene for for and and allowing the space for curiosity and, you know, that guidance, it's it's as much really as you can do in some cases. You can't show everything. But the the the steps then and the the I suppose the process because bounce is all about the process, you know, and the steps in which you take. So you're Naoise: Yeah. Danielle: career and your the jobs that you work on move between type and UX and motion and identity and you know in and out kind of weaving, bobbing and weaving in and out of everything. When you're shifting between those kind of gears, you know, what does your process look like and has it evolved since you've kind of started to work with detail? Naoise: Yeah. So yeah look I I I I think I think for me the way I've always managed to kind of jump the fence into these different disciplines is type. And just have having kind of a strong a deep understanding I suppose of type and again the id the idea of context like what what you know being being able to change we we we were kind of talking more about kind of the message in in terms of kind of twisting or bending type, but also kind of in terms of le legibility or you know, typefaces that are that are suitable for for a digital context, suitable for accessible contexts. so being able to kind of change from mu much more kind of, you know, we we talked about kind of things like Song of the Sea, which very kind of expressive and kind of speaks to to children, whereas then you move into kind of municipal projects where yeah you you need to serve a much broader range of people and abilities. so being able to approach that through type I I suppose is is is is always my my way in. i image making is is kind of part of it and I suppose the lovely thing about working in in detail is that that we kinda we're we're We're a collective and and we all have our different strengths. So there's a particular particular strength for kind of illustration in the studio, definitely kind of thinking about Paul McBride and people like Sally who who worked with us in the past. you know, so being able to kind of to dovetail each each other's work is i i is really a big, big part of the practice. It's kind of very often Danielle: Mm. Naoise: that you know, I I'll have sketched things particularly kinda do a lot of icons and I'll often, you as part of an identity, I'll sort of sketch icons, get a bit a bit of the feel of it, but but you know, I'll I'll hand it over to to to Paul who who who who knows how to how to finish it to a really, really high standard. So being able to kind of rely on each other that way. And then equally I suppose as as kind of the token type designer in the studio, I you know, I I often find myself maybe drawing the final ver they they might not be my projects, but I often find myself kind of drawing, fine drawing the fine the the final versions of different projects. But like that that that in itself is is kind of I suppose kind of a a as you grow as a designer, as you get more more senior, you have to kind of be able to kind of not not not not even delegate, but you but you can't you can't have your hands on everything anymore. But it's like the the again that that collab collaborative process within our studio of being able to work with you know, we've an amazing young team. We've Ollie Smith Jess Wheeland, both IDT graduates, working with them with them at at the moment, like being being able to I I I I Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: suppose just be able to it's not even helping it's kind of give them the confidence sometimes to to tackle in in the same way Paul might be able to support kind of the the the younger designers in studios approaching image making they're you know that they're amazing amazing identity designers and just being able to kind of give them the confidence to be yeah like kind of go for it don't don't worry about get get get the feel of it down and if you need if you need a hand just kind of fine-tuning it or being able to kind of look over the shoulder and kind of say it just just a tiny little bit wider it it is is is a lo it's a lovely way to work. and Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: think that's kind of the power, we kinda think I touched on it already there, like this idea of kind of the the collective and collaboration. I don't think, you know, again the the bigger the projects get there's there's no project at at at any kind of quality at a large scale that that doesn't happen through collaboration. and and and to do to do those projects being able to to work with other and and and I'm I'm just talking about the studio like it's it outside of that it's Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm. Naoise: it's the it's the clients we work with and the supplier. Like again, like once once we so we we do a lot of kind of large scale environmental design and fit out design. being able you we're we're we're not we're not fabricating things in in the studio, you know, be being able to work with our suppliers to to get large scale work done. I think Yeah, un underpins from kind of in a really small way to large ways definitely kind of the the underpinnings of the the studio or studio in detail and how we how we operate. Danielle: It's brilliant because the the collaboration piece is just like it's so vital because the work just wouldn't be what it is. without that and without those voices like that you're saying, you know, you're just kind of you're throwing your eye as such on to, you know, the the identity or some letters and you're kinda going, I can redraw them and just I'll I'll help I'll t help tweak that. But everyone has that thing. You know, you might be the token type guy, but everyone has the thing that they're bringing to the party as such. and that's the kind of the secret sauce, isn't it? That kind of collaborative piece. And you would love that, you know, more people collaborate, even you know, if if it's if it's kind of challenging to do that in terms of 'cause there's a lot of freelancers that kind of work on their own. You know, it's so valuable and it's just such such Naoise: People a people ask sometimes, ask me, and I like you could ask me like h how many people work for Detail? And I and I always struggle. There is a core team, obviously, that that that are in the studio day in, day out, but but where there there's a blur of some of our very close collaborators, like my my my my professional husband, Billy, our back end developer, works primarily from from Valencia. in the in the early days of Detail he was rarely home. I I I didn't I I became very close friends with Billy, having never met him in real life. And I think there was maybe through four years, could be more, of of like knowing this guy. And and and that was maybe kind of developed through COVID as well. So I would have been working from home and doing these remote calls. My wife Sarah got to know Billy really well. Knew what each other's houses and apartments or whatever whatever looked like. I mean, we never met each other in in in in real life. and and eventually obviously the the the day came and I remember we went we went we went on a we went on a date we went to for a pizza in in Duniery and it was just the most bizarre experience of somebody like I know so like I know you inside out but now you're here in real life and it's kinda like Yeah. It's it's kinda it's sort of weird, but it's not weird. Like it's just you, like yeah. so yeah, from there, like yeah, Bill Billy's back and forth a little bit a little bit more now and Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Naoise: Yeah, we we we we we get to see a bit of them, but j just sort of to speak to this nature of so we work with kind of copywriters and and fabricators and illustrators and stuff. and yeah, so so so the detail team i is kinda hard to hard to hard to quantify because of exactly that, this this kind of collaborative nature of of our practice. Danielle: Yeah. Their tentacles are everywhere. So then we might talk about another one of your projects, G N E foda. And for the the those who are listening beyond Ireland, the foda is an elongation of the sound and I think that's that's all it does, but I could be corrected on on that. But it's the little is the little diagonal line ab above a letter. Yeah. Naoise: Like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Diagonal line, accent, same, same, same and and serves a similar job to the French language. So becomes A. it does, you're right. It it it it it it elongates the the sounds. but yeah like that that that's that's a lovely project to to bring up in that it sort of dovetails like that that's kind of ki like kind of contemporary practice, a re a recent project. so that was the I suppose re re re Danielle: Yes, exactly. Yes. Mm. Mm. Naoise: don't want to call it a rebranding, it was kind of a repositioning of Megarniani arch architects studio so that G and E that that they they've retired so there was a transition in the company. So they were I suppose they were trying to show a continuity with with with their past but also kind of point to a new a new future under a new leadership. So they were very conscious to try and kind of r retain the the the the the name but but change so we've gone to kind of the ac the acronym but the I suppose we used we we kinda h hijacked the the father or the accent as as the device I suppose to kind of communicate the the continuity part of it but again like you know lovely thing about having having the chat today danielle is to go back you you you know you asked me to go into in into the drawer and kind of have a look at kind of trying to remember exactly kind of how how how we landed at the the particular identity that that we ended up with which does definitely have as it happens nyeni is a a relative of of mine so there was a personal connection there as well. So yeah, but but we we definitely started kind of this this this kind of interplay of kind of modern and maybe traditional or kind of Context was definitely very evidently a play. and and if you kind of look at some of the early drafts for this, we kind of started looking at very kind of engineered letter forms, just kind of look at looking at the work of Florian Karsten and and and and his typeface, which we kind of customized a little bit. but it was too it was too extreme, like it just didn't suit, you know, Again, like try trying to tool everything to to its its context and the type of world. So, you know, we we were just looking at the the the type of work that MGNE do. And it's very kind of cultural. They do a lot of schools and and there's kind of, I suppose, you know, a a softness to it. They're not, they're not engine heavy duty and engineering. That's that's not their their tone of voice. But it but it was a very useful experiment. The other thing I was obsessed with at the time was A I'm always obsessed with Adrian Frudeger, he's a a a typographic hero of mine, but I was particularly obsessed with the type of face I at the time so it's kind of a flared serif and kind of the the there's a sense of kind of that that that draw built builds on things like kind of al Albertus and and a very kind of calligraphic hand so we kind of did did a version of that but but again that was a little bit too kind of looks a bit like kind of bell bottoms or kind of just wasn't it that that also wasn't wasn't quite right and we kind of went down the rabbit hole I suppose of of kind of ultimately kind of draw drawing our own letter form and there's kind of a the there's a slant I suppose to how that's drawn I again kind of going back to things I I learnt early on like how to render type when I'm when I'm sketching in my notebook I I generally I kind of scribble in a diagonal line which kind of mimics the the a pen tip and you can kind of you can kind of see if you look at where we ended up with that there's sort of a there's kind of a a diagonal in in it that that kind of creates motion and and the bit I suppose we lifted from the early experiment was that something interesting was happening that the the foreign karsten typeface kind of has this pixel pixelated notion to it but in a similar way i kinda we kind of hit on this idea of of the twist in the letter form and you know we picked out this there's a there's a symmetry between the the tail or the the the bottom part of the G and the folded over foda which is much larger than a normal foda would would be but that we we kind of thought that that you that was that was enough that was kind of iconic in itself you kind of have this nice nice mark that kind of some sums them up and I think really what what what I hope it it it does or kind of communicates is that that there is still that sense of engineering that that twist isn't calligraphic it's a little bit more engineering engineered and we kinda then we re re read the full alphabet to try and inject that that kind of more engineered twist so it kinda has that sort of slightly traditional feel definitely kinda nods to to Gaelic and and and and Irishness but with with kind of very Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: feel and then and then from there, you know, like that I I think that's that's an example of something that's quite minimal without being kind of modernist. It has its own, it has a tone of voice, but all of the rest of the applications are Just just just kinda just so and then like other things kinda that that struck me about like as as graphic designers sometimes we're we're kind of taught like I kinda alluded to some much bigger, larger scale projects there, but some sometimes it's the simplest thing. and the business card and again actually cla collaboration. I I I remember I I didn't actually finish that that project. I I had designed the stuff, but I know I know Brian actually did the artwork for the for the business cards and and it's probably one like that that year definitely was kind of my the favourite thing. I did. It's it's just a simple business card. We we we embossed the the the foda symbol. And it's yeah, it's it's it's it's just kind of a kind of a lovely thing and I kinda talk about that sometimes to to the students that like sometimes the satisfaction of designers they're they're the lit the the littlest things that that other people might kind of find trivial, but that was lovely output of that project. But yeah, I s I suppose, yeah, g like kinda I think you you you asked me at at some point like how does you know the the the work maybe I did at the very you know, my my work on Instagram. And and kind of communicating Irishness, that that still bubbles to the surface, and that was definitely one of those those projects where Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: Yeah, you're you're kinda trying to to to speak in in kind of an Irish tone of voice, but but there's also other factors that you're you know, you know, you're trying to again n never letting it be feel pastiche or pa like that you're looking to the past that it's all it's always it's always looking to the future but but n knowing and understanding and building on that history is is I I kinda think I'd I'd like to think how how how you get to to that type of work. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's a really elegant solution and I I'm glad you mentioned that it kinda harks back to your your kind of beginnings because it has a real a real feel of that kind of sculptural quality that Michael Beggs had in the letter cutting. You know, you can almost see the the lines where he would have probably cut away at the stone, you know, or the wood through the type. So it's yeah, it's it's it really does kinda kinda you know, it's almost like, you that kind of full circle project. It's kinda like this is how far I've come. Naoise: Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: And wasn't and wasn't and wasn't I right all along. Do you know what I mean? We might move on to another project and this is really I suppose the free market project and Naoise: Yeah. Definitely, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: You sent me lots of found typography, which I think are just are just wonderful. And it's it's you mentioned Paul, Paul McBride. I love his Instagram page, Typo Dublin. there's all the beautiful examples all around the city and I love looking at them and just trying to guess where they're from before I you know actually read them. But so that project then that became a bit of a a repurposing project. You might speak a little bit about that. Naoise: Yeah. Yeah. well yeah, well we we we'll get to that. It's what's important just to to explain what what free market was and you e even before like starting with this idea of collaboration, it just keeps coming up. The the images that that research you're talking about was actually done by Danielle: Mm. Naoise: Trevor Finnegan of Revert Design. So this project was very much kind of a collective. So it was the Irish entry to the Venice Bien Alley in 2018 in which which was also the year that Ireland itself was curating the entire exhibition. So yeah the the Shelley in Grafton architects would would have been would have been curating the show. So it was, you know, it was kind of quite kind of momentous and scary almost to be to be to be part of, but we were we were invited to be parts of the group of architects running it. And Lawrence Lord and Geoffrey Bolius, who've been APE architects, they've they've been great kind of collaborators of ours on on different projects. They invited us to to be involved to help help them, I suppose they they they you know it was it was the architects themselves who who were kind of leading the idea but ha ha helped them, I suppose, realise that or visualise it. but the the the train of thought that they were on at that moment in time was and so the idea was the r re reclaiming the Irish town square. So if you kinda think and and think about a lot of kind of satellite towns of Dublin or kind of small towns around Ireland, in in the past the the market square would have been the kind of the the heart be the thriving heart of of those places. Now, unfortunately, if you know any of those places, they're generally all car parks. the life has kind of gone out of the center of the the towns and it's out kind of in the Tesco or whatever in the kind of the outskirts of the town. So the the the the idea was that there there was to kind of start thinking about th thinking about just that that idea, waking people up to that idea and then coming up with solutions or ideas as to how how how we might re reclaim our town squares. So Yeah, again, kind of the the way projects like that unfold, you you need some sort of a a catalyst. And we all there there's an image of Veronica Broderick's hairdressers, I think, in I think it's in Abbey Feel in Kerry. I pass it off on my way on my way down west, which has this just mad colour scheme, weird kind of purple mosaic and like raging orange shopfront signage and it's just such a kind of so uniquely Irish and just unique in general and we all kind of gravitated towards that image and and that that was so in the architecture itself so the the exhibition setup, the the the team recreated that mosaic. and then we were kind of tasked with kind of coming up with the identity and really kind of looking at the the the the the lettering. and yeah we d there was c a couple of options on it but but again n nice thing about kind of d diving into the archives it was actually Owen Cummins who was working for us in detail at the time who who did the initial sketch for Free market, I I I unearthed it I I I had actually taken the lead on on a on a different proposal and again things you you mentioned to me before the talk, like kind of things that one ones ones that got away or things that were just flat flat rejected. wasn't it was nice to see it but but I can also see why w what what it was in in in in kind of Owen's direction that that they liked but again as as happens with these projects it kind of got as the type designer it was sort of handed over to me to to try and make sense of it and yeah there was kind of a a a a long design process back and forth. So lovely again like just lovely conversations within the studio itself and then and then with the kind of the wider curatorial panel and and we came up with this kind of just bizarre like owen's lettering to begin with was was bizarre and it probably got even more bizarre as it kind of went this sort of yeah something kind of again the these ideas of kind of challenging tradition and something that feels modern and and and it's kind of almost like a gradient so we we drew kind of the full alphabet or full letter form And and there's a version which is kind of plain. There was a version which was quite extreme, so fully kind of vectorized with not a non curve version. And then there was one sort of somewhere in between where we kind of just chamfered it was the it was the curved letter form with the chamfers. and again, I suppose in in that gradient of what kind of found favour, we all kind of gravitated towards the the the the the middle version of the typeface that we ultimately called Broderick after Veronica Broderick's air hairdressers. and yeah. Like that again, like to be to be thrown into something like that, I'm kinda saying that I'm I'm a type designer, but you know, I I I kind of more like we go back to threads of kind of things my my grandfather is a jack of all trades. I I do I do a bit of everything. So to be tasked with d doing a full typeface for for that project was w was was was exciting. and then ultimately I suppose yeah to s to see that start to kind of come to life. So that that became a newspaper. We did a whole lot of like Ross Phelan was also in the studio at the time. He did some beautiful publications. I it be remiss of me not I don't know how we've got this far in the talk and for me not to mention Keith Byrne, who is my longtime colleague in the studio. He's our our currently our create creative director. and and Keith would have led again a lot a lot of kind of the creative outputs on that. but then it it drifted into so thin things I I was working on the the actual production of the lettering. So get yeah getting getting that stuff fabricated. getting getting it over to it was built here, getting it over to Italy. And and I suppose the lovely thing about that converse that that project, so that that's kind of a a very potted history of the the creative genesis of it. but you kind of mentioned this thing about kind of conversations and e echoes of of of things like what look looking back what what what remains. And that's that's a great example of a project that st started a conversation. The free market project it was it it exhibited in Venice but then we brought it back and and there was a kind of a an all all Ireland roadshow where we where we brought it around. But but the actual thread of conversation is still still going and it's lovely to sort of see you know this idea of kind of working on things that ultimately other other designers come and come and contribute to. So the the ex exhibition sorry, r recent exhibition, The Re Reason of Towns, curated by the IAF and and designed by Aamon Hall in d design department is not his studio. i i i it it it's it's amazing to see so that that's that's still kind of that same threat thread of thought is is kinda kinda echoing to to this day and and if you get a chance to look at that Reason of Tans exhibition, it's it's just it it it's phenomenal. Like it's it's it's it's its own language and and and has become its own become its own thing. But nice to kind of think of a project like that that kind of continues, that you contributed in a in a very small way to a broader conversation that's still going on to this day, and something very, very worthy. And I think you know, there there are again like this this there's very tangible outputs from that. There's there's a lot of towns now where where there's been a couple of really great, I think Mullin Garden. has a a new centerpiece in in in in their town and there's there's a lot of kind of practical outcomes from the project as as well as kind of the the academic conversation that that kind of permeates around it. Danielle: Yeah. And I think it's so important that you're part of that conversation that you're you know, you're aiming as a practitioner, you're aiming to make work that kind of contributes to culture or to starting a conversation you know, within a community to develop like, you know, that kind of cultural continuity, to kinda open up a dialogue. I think it's kinda it's something that maybe was the ambition, you know, of you know, graduates ten years ago maybe that they would eventually get to that point. But I think what's lovely now is that that's the immediate ambition of a lot of graduates coming out. They want to work on projects, projects of purpose and intent. And they're really interested in that. And I think, you know, this project is a fantastic example of of that and opening and starting that dialogue. And that, you know, not that you'd engage in these projects for any type of egocentric reason or you know to kind of have a legacy as such but i isn't it wonderful that the pro these types of projects can actually do that. They you know they can live beyond your touch of them and they can kind of go into communities and and and areas and and have a voice and a and a a life of their own. Naoise: Absolutely. and yeah, I think we we were both at the Better by Design conference yesterday, which was yeah, like an an an extraordinary thing. There's there's something extraordinary in general going on in in Danielle: Hmm. Naoise: deeper the Department of Expenditure under the leadership of Tre Trevor Vaughn. and back to I suppose my experiences in IDT, I I I I had the opportunity, I suppose, again, if I didn't mention Rob Rob at the beginning of the the conversation, Rob was part of post design studio but he's found his way into into government. So a graphic designer working within government like that, what what what what an extraordinary thing. Like that that that is That that's so exciting to to see and hear. but during the year Rory Bradley and myself had our third year professional practice students do a workshop with Rob and Genevieve from the department, where we were I suppose the again thinking about the conversation yesterday the the the remit of deeper is is kind of the full gamut of Danielle: Mm. Naoise: kind of life events from from births to marriage to to death, but for as you know yourself trying to keep a project focused we we focused on the student experience and and with that we had we had four for for teams working on diff different aspects of the student experience of like the the experience of a of a first time college goer, mature student, somebody trying to switch courses. and the yeah the the the outcomes that they came up with were were just again so refreshing though those in the same way in in industry and in practice like the students themselves are used to kind of working on I suppose fixed outcomes or Designing maybe, you know, a a website to to a high fidelity. And and some of the really interesting conversations we had with the students was that this is a different type of design. You're not, you know, this is a short five week workshop. We don't we're not designing a full website. We're not designing a campaign. This is about advocating to government to make small changes that can make a big difference. And you need to kind of articulate how this idea could work, how easy it might be to do it and and the the benefit that it might have. And I suppose it's just a different, it's a different framing of of design. You're looking at it from it from a different lens, which was refreshing even for me. To you're you're you're designing kind of sketches of the the different outputs. But what what we also got to was that so we we spent the the the majority of the pro all of the the creative outcomes happened maybe in the last Last week realistically. But most of the project was was much more research-led and words based and coming up with again the the four different teams just came came up with sort of individually such extraordinary solutions but then when it comes to so bringing this back to the better by design conference yesterday where where the work was exhibited along alongside I should mention that there was MA students from NCAD exhibiting and and UCD but to communicate in in an exhibition space the the really really deep thinking that actually kind of comes down to kind of connecting Convincing images and and some some of the best kind of pieces of communication with within that. Like we were kind of looking at kind of the CAO and how you might augment that, use the CAO as as a way of kind of helping students and kind of just a a quickly altered version of the CAO site with the students' idea kind of embedded in it. That's like that's that image was just so much more powerful than and and any words. And there was long words, but I suspect nobody, you know, that Danielle: no. Naoise: only a limited amount of reading happened but but the ideas came across so clearly or or this idea of kind of the first time college student one of the i ideas the students came up with was a wall calendar and just kind of the idea of a government like our or a student led wall calendar in a busy kitchen communicates way more than any of the written ideas that that they might have might have had so yeah I think that's going back to kind of your original question Danielle like that this appetite for Danielle: Mm. Naoise: doing projects of of consequence. The students now are definitely much more socially engaged than I ever was as a a as a student. But but bit bigger still, that's probably the the world that they're graduating into. I think we we we we haven't said the AI word all conversation, but I think one one one of the things that that eliminates is some of the Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Naoise: I think it's Kasha Osman said that like the what what AI does is it kind of gets you gets you out the positive spin on it, it kinda gets you out of the weeds and allows you to to see, you know, as as a designer to focus on on the bigger picture. Now it's important, I think she cautioned that like it won't it won't equally won't make the big decisions for you, but it does strip out a lot of the some some of the more kind of production based work. so I think what we're definitely teaching the students in IDT now is that it's much more about Systems, research led design, collaborating with you know, because that that's the other thing that AI does is it kind of democratizes design. Everyone's a designer now. so I I suppose you you you need to take your design thinking and apply it in a positive way. But I suppose again putting a positive spin on this, this idea and a realization within Irish government that design thinking and that and that was definitely. definitely kind of the the nature of a lot of the conversations yes there was this this kind of push-pull between policymakers and and and designers but I think the the the realization is there now is that that kind of design and engineering thinking is is very valuable in in in that space And also I suppose the other thing we hit on n in the project with Rob and Genevieve was th th I think traditionally all all governments, not just ours, are are quite d siloed in a di departmentally siloed. but for a lot of these systems to work, they need to find ways to work inter or cross cross cross departmentally and joining the dots. And I think designers are kind of probably uniquely positioned to being able to be able to see that that Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Naoise: that whole process from end to end to end being being able to nav navigate that type of complexity. so yeah, so look you know, th th there's definitely re really exciting things happening in an Irish context and and globally at the moment. So but it's definitely a different world that Danielle: Well. Mm. yeah. Naoise: these this cohort of students are graduating into than me or you gr graduated into and they they they need a slightly different tool set to to navigate that. Danielle: completely. And I think what I loved about the better about design, and we will have an episode entirely related to it because it was fantastic, which happened yesterday in the lighthouse, thanks to Creative Ireland and IDI, and Charlotte Parker at the helm of IDI championing the whole thing. but what I loved about the exhibition was the the way in which the projects were articulated, knowing that the audience was not going to be the design. community only. And I thought that was actually very clever because, you know, half of the audience that you know, in the in this breakout sessions or in the, you know, the coffee sessions in between the talks, I chatted to so many people from department of, you know, and that was quite interesting. They had never been to the event an event held in a cinema in the first place, so they thought that was quite cool. But then actually just ex you know, a asking their motivations for why they were there was a you know entirely different. So I think it it that was really, really Naoise: Yeah. Danielle: Done very, very well, and I think the projects came across really, really strongly. and I totally I totally take your point, yes. The the students are coming into a completely different world and the safety of, you know, and and maybe the security of of jobs is is not necessarily there with AI in in and particularly in those maybe the starting positions as junior roles, they're not. as plentiful as they have been in times gone by, but not to say it's not any of the graduates I met at the end of your shows this year were hugely positive about their careers and their futures, which is is a real testament to their resilience. So yeah so real real sense of positivity there. but back to you because it is all about you no token. So just I suppose We're kinda probably we're we're kinda getting to, you know, some of your your other projects. I know there was a project around the Wonder Cabinet. You might just j might just briefly mention that because I think it's a really fascinating project. and I think it's yeah. you might just explain what that is. Naoise: Yeah. Sure, yeah. again w wonder cabinet. Again again b building on kind of conversations and and and friends within the industry. It was also Lawrence Lorde and Jeffrey Boleus who APE architects who who were commissioned to do a new exhibit in the Natural History Museum. And again they they got us on board. That was it was it was after after free market. but the the idea was to to build so b building on this kind of research so so the idea of of cabinets of curiosity our our historic idea and and it was kind of a a modern take on that i can keep this conversation keeps kind of coming coming into this the the the friction between kind of tradition and and and and history and and and putting a modern spin or or trying to interpret that in in in a modern way. but it it was an amazing project to to work on so so the the the museum had come into the possession of some new exhibits that that needed to be housed somewhere so again just the the the the natural history museum is is the dead zoo which you know just such an extraordinary place again like when I was working on the project I was kind of having all these memories of in in in NCAD drawing was very central and I think it's still is to the course there we we'd be dragged up there every second week it seemed like in into the museum to to draw the to to to draw all Everett and the Zebras and whatever but a funny thing happened then so it was part of part of the the build for that we ended up out in the museum at that moment in time I don't know if they still maintained the the premises but it was this huge warehouse out on the outskirts near near the airport where it's it it's where where they house the exhibits that can't be exhibited and it it's just it used to be a mobile phone plant but it's just a Acres and acres of space of and we kind of went in there to see the animal exhibits, but there's like there is a room of all the chariots, there's there's a room, it's like it's like the right raiders scene in the Raiders of the Lost Ark, there's there's a room which is just a room of rocks. So any any find of ar archal archaeological significance that gets submitted to the museum, they can't necessarily all be submitted, but they do need to be catalogued and housed somewhere. So it's just a whole room of every type of rock you can imagine. There was a room of boats that were being kept in salinated water, stinky room with kind of old old shipwrecks. but when we were in there looking at the exhibits, I I came across this zebra whose head had seemingly fallen off. But I was looking at it closely and you know that experience of drawing in college was like I know those stripes. The poor the poor El zebra is now in in in in two in two pieces in in in storage. But yeah that that that that was really special just to kind of get get a pre-look at what was going on Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Naoise: to the into the cabinet. So we we we had to kind of collaborate with the architecture team to I suppose do the communication design for to do literally the the the sign over the door which was in in itself like kind of sometimes this idea of the that was a big project but sometimes the little things so worked to create so the the name of the thing ended up being the Wonder Cabinet, but it had to be bilingual as well, so Cabinet and the Intelish in in Irish. and and the idea was to kind of to mimic I suppose the the mahogany surroundings of the museum, but the the the architecture team had built like a it was a cube, and but above the door the idea was to do the name of the ex exhibit in lit brass lettering. and that was kind of central from you know one one of the key tenants from the get-go was always you know the the brass lettering and and the actual drawing of that lettering if you're kind of looking at the images of it there the the exhibition itself was was based around the idea of predator and prey. so we kind of we again gone through the archives there and look looking at some of the early drawings for it. Again, this was a collaboration with Owen Cummins who it's funny like it was own and myself working on free market and own myself working on Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: the the the wonder cabinet. and we set about trying to draw some of the exhibits first. So there's some lovely illustrations there by Owen of the of the animals, which again this idea of things that got just great stuff that unfortunately got rejected and I suppose we gravitated more so towards the type. And I suppose again this idea of kind of designing for for context, when when you're in a historic space like that, very precious to everyone, me me included, that you know Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: that anything that goes into that space has to To be sympathetic to its surroundings. So we were working on kind of a style of Castellon type that we kind of redrew and we kind of knocked some of the elements out of it and we did a lot of research on predator teeth. And and it's kind of this weird kind of combination of sort of teeth teeth and quite traditional type ended up being the the word mark for Wonder Cabinet. But when it came to the again, the these threads of thought, this idea of kind of collaboration and different people working on different pieces of the job. We were working with this amazing cra craftsman, car carpenter from from Acrewood and then another another supplier who when the letters came to site, both so so the letters were made separately to the carpentry, and the the tolerance of both they had been cut to such precision that the the the letters basically b both were exactly the same size and the letters didn't quite fit in into the app so the craftsman had cut cut the apertures for for the lettering to slot into and they were so both both pieces were so well made that they didn't fit together. but but other parts of kind of the you know the the the day to day and the scramble of like being able to jump from, you know, we're talking about type design or web development to w working Danielle: Yeah. Naoise: with the it it ultimately though there was a little bit of back and forth and ultimately it was it was the the the lettering that had to change. but just working with the sign makers to come up with this way of mounting the l letters to upside down onto a router to kind of just trim off a fraction of a millimeter to get them all to slot in. Yeah we we we we we we we got it done and I suppose yeah the the effect was beautiful when when when it when it Danielle: Mm. Naoise: landed. and that's where we're still we're just talking very superficially about just the sign on the thing in in inside. Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Naoise: I suppose we're kind of talking a little bit about kind of working at at scale, working kind of municipally, y you know, access accessibility, access would have been a huge priority on that on that project. Anything that goes into a public museum. You also have to deal with the Official Languages Act, so er everything all of the signage was was bilingual. We d no another lovely little kind of memory or thread of thought on that working n d this idea of just just working with collaborators. often th th there's kind of I I I I I Would say this that there there is this perception maybe from other people that when you translate English to Irish, that Irish is considerably longer. I I I would I would argue that that maybe comes from not not not laziness exactly, but not really engaging with the text. If you translate properly, or or act sorry, I shouldn't say properly, but if you translate accurately from one language to the other, generally speaking, and and sometimes it'll sometimes one will be sure. shorter than the other. It's not like they should should be roughly of equ e equal length. but we found an amazing translator, the name name escapes me now, but who worked with and again li the delicate tightrope of translating because the just the space that we were working in w was tight and the Irish had to match the English pretty closely. this translator worked to get bang on word word count translations. But add add into the mix the complexity of also translating into the other thing that sometimes happens with with translation when when you don't kind of it's just done quickly is that the translated language is not it it's not incorrect but it's not readable to Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Naoise: Average Irish reader, or especially to a child who would have been the kind of target audience of the Wonder Cabinet. So our our translator managed to kind of both translate at to the same length but also write the language really beautifully in a way that was kind of intelligible or understandable to kids who who would be experiencing the the exhibit. So yeah, there was that, and then obviously working very closely with the OPW to ensure you know all of the heritage aspects of the project were met. also kinda a health and safety aspect to it. I suppose when you put some some of those exhibits the the the the gas or the the the the the units or they go into into glass containers. The the glass containers themselves need need to need to be pressurized or or kind of de de decontaminated. Some some of there was a jawbone in the cabinet which is five thousand years old if I remember if I remember that that I might be making it a bit older than it was, but like in i in the in the order of t like a jawbone in the order of thousands and thousands of years old in in the cabinet. So you can imagine just the the precautions and the I suppose care that has to be taken in order to to to look after an object like that. So it like it that was just such such a joy like such a joy to work on. but also kinda i it illustrates that e even in kind of quite a joyful fun project like that, you're you're still you're still juggling a lot of complexity and and and there's a lot of kind of regulations and Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: things in the brief that that that need need to be need to be met. but I suppose again like like an like any kind of design, you know, the the the har the hard bit is making it look simple. and yeah with with some of these projects today hop hopefully we've we've achieved that in in kind of one Danielle: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think with that project, you know, because like I have such strong memories as well of the Dead Zoo and the Dead Zoo is part of, you know, the fabric at Dublin. And like, you know, even the floor, the co I always remember like like yourself going up there. I used to go up there every Saturday and I'd be sitting on the floor, the cold parquet floor. I always remembered so you know what I mean, it was such a visceral thing and then drawing all the animals. and I think everyone was kind of sent there. It was kind of an easy way to me to kind of improve your drawing skills, you know. But that sensitivity to people's memory Naoise: Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: A place is you know, there's a there's a kind of there's a complexity to that a lot alone, and that's the intangibility that you're dealing with within the brief as well. That you want to be respectful to what's there, drive it forward, move it on so that it now accommodates that accessibility in terms of the language, the way in which it's written, and then plain Irish rather than plain English. You know, so it all of those points bring this project together and it makes it look effortless, but there's so much at play. And a lot of the work that you guys do, particularly in detail. You're working with institutions like, you know, IMA, you know, you've done a lot of the not only teaching with IEDT, so sorry, IMA is the Irish Museum of Modern Art and IEDT is the Institute of Art and Design and Technology in Dunleary. just for our non-Irish listeners. But you know, these institutions that you are working with, you know, they have their own history, they have their own idea of like what design is for and what your role within it is. So you're kind of those collaborative partners. you're you're navigating the relationships between them as much as the the job at hand as such. Do you know what I mean? Like you're kinda doing so many so many things at the one time. Naoise: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that that that's actually an interesting one to to pick on. Like that that kind of both professionally and academically, my entire career has kind of been tangled up in in in IDT. and yeah, like that that that's a really fruitful relationship. But but Danielle: Mm. Naoise: again that that notion of kind of IDT maybe going quiet in terms of the studio for a few years but then the last two years we've been super busy with IDT in that the institute is is very very much on on on the move. So under under the stewardship of of David Smith, they've just opened the new digital media building. And again, we were fortunate enough to be involved in the the genesis or the build fit out for that project. And that that that that actually you know that that that project is good illustration of I I suppose our the environmental work we do in in detail and how we kind of tread from so the the Is quite expressive graph like the if you walk into the space, into that space, the there's a l mural that that Keith Byrne worked on, which goes three stories. So in winter when the whole building is lit up, there's this not knotty line. and and I suppose the concept was the the the journey of the idea, so the not knotty idea, and as it as it progresses up the three floors, it's it starts to to resolve itself a as it goes. And there and there I suppose the the things you see, the the the visible part of it, the the expressive design. But but equally that's that's backed up with all of the formal wayfinding system in in in the in the space. so that's I I I suppose one of the nice things about working in in in in in the studio on detail is that we have the capacity to kind of go go from kind of the the the very graphic expressive stuff, but also have the the capacity to to handle the, you know, lar large scale signage projects. So you kinda you kinda get out of, I suppose, you know, th th th that that's moving a little bit out of the com the comfort zone of traditional graphic design where where you're designing maybe a thing in Illustrator and and that's the output and that's the final artwork. When you start moving into scale, you need to start working in sorry, that the the the outputs themselves are still created in in Illustrator or whatever your tool of choice is, but then you're much more into kind of automated systems. So, you know, we're working with combining graphical data with or gra graphical output with data and being able to automate the process of making you know, we we've worked on buildings with with literally thousands of of signs. And and I suppose that that's been kind of a learning curve for us over the last couple of years, but we've kind of just been increasing, increasing, increasing in scale, working with kind of large corporates that I'm probably not allowed to talk to you about, but but you know, once once you get to that scale, it's it's huge and it's it's it's a slightly different ball game. but still kind of the we we kind of delight, I think, in being able to jump from one kind of scale to the other. Brian used to have and kind of probably still does this as an image. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: of a small raft and a large oil tanker that Brian used to show as kind of an illustration of Detail Design Studio. And I think ev even more so now today, that that that image is so so pertinent. So you're kind of you know, we we we we love being in in the weeds, working with kind of small startups on kind of the the the rush of those kind of little little projects, but then also kind of working with much larger organizations. So relating it back to maybe Yama or IDT or other other institutions like that. And we do a lot of like we work with T C D and all all of these places have their own culture and they're big large teams that are kind of changing frequently. So being able to negotiate that kind of pace each that's something we we kind of notice work working with these different or each institution has a different different works at a different pace and you and you need to kind of get into the the flow that ever ever every different different project and that's that's maybe kind of the large containership. You need to be a little bit more content that things take, you know, at a large scale things take much longer and you need to just work things kind of incrementally. And if you kind of get get into the flow of knowing how things get delivered within those institutions and just be comfortable with that and just sort of keep keep pushing things forward and and not getting frustrated, which you know as as designers we we we can can can do. but never never losing side of kind of supposed kind of yeah back we're back to kind of know knowing the context know knowing the people and it's you know it's it's it's the relationships you have in in in in those places that that help get things done and I suppose again I'd I'd like to think that we're generally a reasonably friendly bunch in in the studio and we tend we tend to get to know these people and that that's very valuable I suppose when when things do you know when thing things go a little bit pear-shaped if if you have a really tight relationship with with clients and and and and they know Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Naoise: know you and trust you you can you know you you you you can make you know the person to call to to to to get things get things sorted so yeah so look it you know that that that that's that's a bit a big part of what we do and I think the you know the difference in jumping from scale and I think back to maybe I dt the nuts nuts and bolts signage that maybe nobody notices and they might be the things that we delight in in that they meet you know they're they meet all of Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: eggs, they've got we're working in Braille, they're tactile, all all all of that good stuff that people maybe gloss over. That's the interesting stuff for us, but you might be distracted by the you know, the aten attention grabbing graphics, which yeah, are are are are the fun parts sometimes of those jobs. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it's the quiet things, isn't it, that just allow you to navigate a space, like you're refining systems that are effortlessly put together, but they're th put together with such thought and you know they they work. And when they work, people don't see them. And they just you know, they just assume that they were able to navigate a space or you know, a website or or or whatever. I knew we were gonna speak for hours. I knew it. I knew we knew I knew we would. But I have to ask you one final question. and it's because the the the podcast is called Rough Draft and Naoise: Yeah. Danielle: I'd love to know, do you have anything that is unresolved? Do maybe something that you're kind of circling back to that you haven't made yet? Maybe it's a a type of client you haven't worked with, a project you'd like to work on, or is there something that's kind of percolating in your brain at the moment? Naoise: there's there's all there's just too many of them. There's no there's never enough time to get into all these things. Yeah. Yeah. And we're we're we're we're we're we're talking we're talking professionally here. I mentioned at the very outset that my my my dad is a furniture designer, that's that's in me as well. There's all these kind of personal projects and things that I want to make and build and Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: I gotta put a gun to your head. You can give me the top top two. Ha ha. Yeah, yeah. But the personal projects are so important because they feed feed your c constant curiosity. But you can tell us if it's a personal project or if it's a professional one. Naoise: Yeah. No, no, no, no, we we won't go there. We won't I won't bore bore you with the car the card that's in multiple pieces that hasn't progressed in a long time. no, seriously though, pr pr professionally, I I've been fortunate enough to be working with Philip and Radek from the Academy of Art and Architecture Prague. I hope I got that right. on their their project TypoFix, which is a a project or a database to kind of create it to correct the orthography of non-English. So we spoke a lot on this podcast about fathers in the Irish language, but most most European languages ha have have their own peculiarities and and and and spellings. I I got I got bailed in to proof or to write the rules I suppose for the typographic rules for writing the Irish language which was a fascinating thing to do. I kind of thought I I had a good idea of what it was until you're really in it. You're into weeds and kind of researching that. So that that that's that's going along. They they presented at A Type by very recently and and that project I think is coming to fruition at the end of twenty sixteen. I think there's gonna be a twenty twenty six, sorry, twenty twenty seven. I mean where am I? and there's hopefully gonna be a publication and output from that and and it's sorry I didn't even explain it properly. The the main output is that it'll be a plug-in for InDesign or your chosen web design app. So that that that's that's all happening. I'm the the Irish type design is always still percolating. I'm I'm I'm working on a piece of research with my brother Ulton of Groh Architects at the moment who are fascinated by the street signage, Dublin street signage at the moment. So we've been researching, compiling a bit of a database of these are the the green Irish English road road signs around around the capital. and and there's kind of a in similar to kind of the the insular Michael Biggs project what sort of style can't I you know we we I can't we can't help ourselves in that what started is kind of just being research, draw drawing the the various letter forms, morphs obviously into wanting to do your own version. So we've been coming up with all kinds Of letter forms were that the exact output of what they might be. Well actually I can I can put it more straightforward. my brother Olson is building a house at the moment, and and the the finishing touch is this idea of the kind of the gable end road sign that that we're hopefully going to put some interesting lettering on. and yeah like I I I suppose professionally it's it's you know in in in in in the studio it's it it's kind of a crazy time. We're we're still trying to retool our workflow and yeah there's been a huge like again just just to touch on on on the AI question or the a a AI in in in practice Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: ver very present in the studio. we've been you know, you y you just have to kind of get get on board. and from a personal perspective, I've found myself super powered by AI, probably more so in a in a development space. We haven't found a real really good applications for it in any kind of image making yet. but de definitely in terms of kind of research and w web development is is yeah in in in a in a very interesting place at the moment but my my take on it is very very positive and we've done more digital design work in the last three years than we probably ever have. we can you know we we can tackle things that before we probably you know wouldn't wouldn't have had necessarily the confidence to to do it. So a lot of the you know a lot of the emphasis definitely you know we we've talked a lot about kind the the graphic Outputs and some lovely identity stuff. The the big experiential design projects are are happening, but in in in my corner of the studio, the the digital outputs have been really really exciting. tackling like we were maybe going to talk today about a project that we did for Dublin College, another beautiful identity by Jess Whelan. But Holly Smith, who's our lead UX designer, we we worked on on a website for that that that is in the process of growing even. Further. But the lovely thing about where we are now and being able to tack tackle things in the past, so sometimes maybe finish on this this thread of kind of access to digital systems and accessibility. In the past, you would have been relying maybe on kind of third-party systems. Danielle: Mm. Naoise: maybe kind of paying lip service a little bit to to that side of of the house. for the Dublin College website we we we were able to build an accept our our own bespoke accessibility plugin for that, which as far as we're concerned, works way better than any, you know, paid paid for service. And it's very much again like the these Danielle: Okay. Mm-hmm. Naoise: you same threads of thought of kind of context. It's it's it's customized specifically for that client for their for their exact needs and having full control over being able to develop you know, again this the idea of kind of the business card. I'm I'm I'm now banging on about like an an accessibility widget that that we build. It's the delight in some of those small things. Like the website itself is obviously like you know, a a a lovely thing to to to look at and and very complex in lots of other ways. But just little things like that being able to you know ha having Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Naoise: These conversations with clients about their needs and particularly kind of around accessibility and being able to answer that need in a very, very meaningful, deliberate way and not just be kind of you know, we have to comply with this and that. And like, yeah, no, we did some research, we made this mate made this widget and and it actually we can kind of quantify it it its effect on Danielle: Mm-hmm. Naoise: on on users. So yeah, so so all all of that couldn't exist without kind of modern the modern tools we have have at our disposal. and yeah, ho hopefully it just a allows us you know, I I I'm I'm really not I'm more and more reassured about it and that really as as designers it just just opens up so much more possibilities. It that that same quote again, it gets you out of the weeds and to be able to f on on on the big picture and and really delivering being in full maybe leave it there on the the notion of kind of be in in total. It it suits somebody like me, I can be in just complete control of the of the of of the output, which is okay. So yeah, there you go. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha. Great. Well listen, we will have to leave it there. w otherwise we'll have to put this into a two part podcast. But I could I actually genuinely could speak to you for much, much longer. But I'd I just want to say thank you so much. It's it's great to h see that kinda that kind of whistle stop tour of the of the projects that you do and the the the vast spread of, you know, context within which you work. you don't have a thirty year career. You're you know, you it's a short enough career to have had so much experience in in so many different areas. So yeah, it's it's it's wonderful and I thank you so much for sharing. So I'll I'll leave on Garev Magulat and for our non Irish speakers that's thank you. Naoise: How far did you write down, yeah?