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Is the Church Failing at Its Mission? · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: God never called us to build a Christian nation.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_04: I don't see anywhere in Scripture He called us to build a Christian nation.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: He called us to build a kingdom within nations.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: And somehow people have got something wires crossed.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: They almost see it as the same thing.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: Building the kingdom of God is getting the right people elect, fighting the right battles and all.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now Welcome to another episode of Mental Health and the Mission of the Church with Pastor Chip Judd, the first of the new year.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Chip will give more formal introductions in the episode, but this is Pastor Brandon Goff.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: We've demonized mental health in the spiritual world.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's been incredibly dangerous.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: You can't think just because somebody's trying to get better mentally, just because they're reading science, theory, whatever.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: We can't think just because we're trying to get smarter, we're trying to get less spiritual.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: And this is Pastor and licensed professional counselor, Pastor Armando Palacio.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you might look like a Christian on the outside, but the inside, God's teacher, knows the heart.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the deal: you know your heart too.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know the pain, you know the hurts.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that look like for the church?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: It means being honest.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: It means holding up that mirror, creating a culture that says, I want to be healed, I want to be better, and I'm willing to bring it to the cross.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Your potential is too valuable to waste.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: They joined Chip and Joey to discuss what the mission of the church is, how well they feel the church is currently carrying out that mission, and what role does good, sound mental health science play in the strategy of that mission.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_04: Knowing your Bible doesn't equate into mental health.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: Knowing your Bible doesn't equate into spiritual health.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: Mental knowing your Bible equates into knowing your Bible.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_04: It isn't knowing the Bible, it's experiencing the reality of that Bible to the place that you embody the truth of it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: After a point, you naturally live it out almost effortlessly.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And for a video version of this episode, subscribe to Chip's YouTube channel.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: You'll find a link in the show notes.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Mental health admission of the church listeners, we are back in 2026.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is our first episode of the year, and it's uh it's a perfect, I think personally, content-wise, it's a perfect way to kick off because I Chip, it looks like we're not only going to assess the church in how uh mostly the three of you feel that it's doing when it comes to discipling, when it comes to healthy people and what that looks like when it comes to paying attention to what real good mental health is.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think it'd probably be a good time to remind people of what you're all about.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: I would love for you to introduce these two guys.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: You pick them for a reason.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about them and how you made a connection and why you know that they vibe with this sort of conversation.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: This is Armando Palazzo.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: He's up in the uh Hudson Valley of New York.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I'll let him tell us a little bit about what he's up to.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a mental health counselor, uh, also a church planner, uh, seven years in now.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, been mental health field since uh 2006, uh licensed in New York and New Jersey.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I got my feet in both worlds, and I see the uh the challenges uh of the relationship between the church and the mental health world and the challenges that that poses on discipleship.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like super psyched, ready for this conversation.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Love to see where it goes and see how it can be a help to uh all the listeners.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is the second time you've been on here, too.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was surprised you guys invited me back, so I'm pretty psyched about that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, I really did do a good job.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: They just weren't saying that.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: I really did a good job.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_04: Armando Joey made me, man.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: He made me invite you.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: No, I'm kidding.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: So Armando's got some great thoughts, man.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_04: Got some great thoughts.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: The other gentleman here is Brandon Goff.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_04: He's up in the Columbia area, and uh he's gonna tell us a little bit about himself.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Columbia, the country?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Dang, that's awesome.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he's from Columbia.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell by his tell by his uh complexion?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely not the Columbia country.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Columbia, South Carolina, uh, Brandon Goff um uh got a wife and three kids.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: We started our church 13 years ago in Columbia, South Carolina, uh Radiate Church.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: And man, I just really have a passion uh to help people develop the purpose God's put on the inside of them and and what that looks like as I've chased that in my own life and and continuing to do that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I'm honored to be on here.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not like Ormond, I've never been on here.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't know if I'll get invited back.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I'm grateful Chip extended the invite.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: I talked to Chip on a regular basis, and uh he's helped me.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's helped me tremendously in in this topic.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm I'm super excited to talk a little while about this from the church aspect.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_04: Another thing about Brandon that's probably common to a lot of us is uh he married he married way up.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: I mean way up.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder how drunk his wife was.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I don't want to know the answer to that because it would probably hurt my ego way too much.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: Either then or she was in a temporary psychotic state.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: She she likes stray dogs too, so it that makes sense.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_04: So you know she's just a really, a really fine young lady, man.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: She's awesome.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: She's awesome.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: So don't ever ask his wife about the first time they met.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: She'd be like, I just don't even remember.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: You don't even remember.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a few years after that, I had to get glasses.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: So now it all, you know, whatever.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: So well, Chip, I asked beforehand if I could kick off with a question that I think would kind of get the wheels turning with what we're talking about.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I I told you about this, but uh true story.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask you three, what would you say to this person if it was a friend or family member of yours that you had the open door to actually speak into the situation?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I went to the neighborhood pool and I had a uh very popular, uh it's it's tried and tested.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to say this guy had kind of kicked off uh cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's called the feeling good handbook.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And my therapist gave it to me.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Been read been been reading through it, and I walked into the pool, and you know, I I'm an introvert, so I I actually went out of my way and said hey to the other two people that were there and introduced myself.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, What you got there?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: What you reading?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I showed it to them and I said, you know, it's just a book that my therapist recommended.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: She just looked at me very serious and said, and she doesn't know me at all.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: She said, Uh, have you ever read the Bible?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, uh, I said, Yes, ma'am, I actually have.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: And she doesn't know I've been a pastor for 20 years or anything.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And she literally says, It'll do a lot better than that.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, okay.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I I don't want to share my, I actually shared this story on the Seacoast podcast and kind of gave my opinion of the situation, which in a nutshell is I, you know, I gave her the benefit of the doubt.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: She's thinking, lost soul, this is maybe a God-ordained encounter and maybe the best that she could come up with.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it could have offended someone who wasn't a Christian.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, good Lord, lady, like I that's great and all.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: But what would you guys say if that was your mother or your daughter or your best friend and you watched that play out?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Would you have anything that you would want to say to that person?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I laughed at?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_04: I laughed at Brandon's expression when you said what you said, her saying that, his face just changed instantly.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I thought, okay, he's on the right page.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's a lot I would want to say to that, Joey.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if if that was my daughter, my wife, my mom who who went who they started the conversation with you that way, I I would immediately be like, first of all, uh, don't assume.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: You you can't you can't walk into an assumption.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it goes to the greater conversation we're about to have in a moment that we've demonized mental health in the spiritual world.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's been incredibly dangerous.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: And and I would tell them, I'd be like, You can't think just because somebody's trying to get better mentally.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, regardless of what the the book is, just because they're reading science, theory, whatever.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: We can't think just because we're trying to get smarter, we're trying to get less spiritual.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think Jesus was a pretty smart guy.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: If you read the things he said and you look at the context and history behind it, he was a smart guy.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, so I I would immediately and I've had similar, I had an encounter on a plane a few months ago that was very similar to that for two hours and it was torture.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um but the reality is, Joey, I I literally would look at my my spouse, my daughter, my mother, whoever, and be like, don't ever start the conversation like that again, because you just made an assumption that you have no idea if it's a reality.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: And like you can suggest, hey, here's some scriptures, that's great, but you can't think somebody screwed up spiritually just because they're trying to get better individually.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and I didn't I didn't pursue it any further, but it it definitely felt like, oh, what's that?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what do you what do you call mumbo jumbo chip?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: You have a word for it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh get gopily gook.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: You call it goply.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: It sounded it sounded like that's what she was saying, like, oh, whatever to that book.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: You need to read the Bible, young man.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I'll be honest with you guys, I got no tolerance for that kind of nonsense.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would have confronted it head on.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's hyper-spiritualization, which is to me one of the worst uh defense mechanisms where you leverage God because you don't want to deal with your crap in life.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then you project that on other people.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, ultimately, it's really a denial of truth.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, that same individual who might say something like that, does that same individual read the Bible when they have a virus or a sickness or cancer?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, they go to a doctor.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's a lack of biblical teaching.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a lack of pastors being bulled from the pulpit, preaching the truth that when man fell into sin, all of our being fell, even our psyche and our emotions, uh, sexuality, our behavior.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is where all of these hardships have come from.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, when we talk about spiritual discipleship, it's got to be a holistic platform.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, they're denying truth.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of these hyper-spiritualizers actually do a lot of damage to uh believers that God wants to heal, but they actually shortchange them, they make them feel shame, they make them feel guilt about their desire to get better.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then people pray, and sometimes you pray and God doesn't heal because God wants you to change, God wants you to work on yourself.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like when you pray, God fix my marriage, and then somebody says, Yeah, you guys should go to marriage counseling, and you're like, No, we don't do that.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then you're not gonna get a blessing because we we pray to God for things, but then we sabotage them by not coming alongside and and sowing good seeds.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that hyper-spiritualization is about the worst defense I ever, uh defense mechanism I ever work with as a pastor.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: They it's it's got nothing to do with faith, they leverage God as a way to hurt other people and not deal with their junk.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of my thought on it.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Chip, he's more fired up than you.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_04: Telling you, man.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Joey, the question made me mad, Joey.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: He's dangerous, man.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: He's dangerous.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_04: He's dangerous.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: He said that way better than I would have.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: I just needed not to be a good one.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you know, Brandon, I was about to say, I hope you're paying attention.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the one you know, you know, I I had you on this call so you could learn a little bit, man.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that because I just I just got a whole series of sermons out of that.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: That was great.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Armando, are you do you do Enneagram stuff by any chance?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: What's that?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do Enneagram stuff by any chance?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, not really, no.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: I I would I would just would guess that you and Chip are both eights, but that's Gopoli Gook, all that Enneagram dumb stuff.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's not in the Bible, man.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: Chip, you have anything you don't need it.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Chip, you have anything to add to what they said?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: You and I would say that.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: I want to put a frame around the this episode.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm and I'm doing it intentionally provocative.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: I want us to the title of this episode is Is the church failing at its mission?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: Is the church failing at its mission?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's a question.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's not a declaration.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not saying it is or it isn't, although obviously I have an opinion.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we're mental health in the mission of the church, so obviously I have an agenda, you might say, uh a motive that I want to move things toward.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: But I want us to think about that a minute.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: Is the church failing?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: Now, obviously, if you wanted to be nicer, you could say, is the church succeeding?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_04: But I want to be provocative intentionally.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: Is the church failing at its mission?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: Well, first, you got to answer the question what's the mission?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: So how would you, in the shortest way possible, how would you define the mission of the church?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Me personally, it's Jesus' words, I have come so that you can have life and have it to the fullest.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And for some odd reason, God has entrusted that to the church.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: I say some odd reason because we're so jacked up, but I reckon through the Holy Spirit, we can present that and not only encourage ourselves to seek that, but others as well.
• 14:03
  unknown: Right.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for me it's um, you know, a couple different things.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh Matthew 28, 19, you know, I think it starts with the Great Commission, and then that turns into discipleship.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Jesus' greatest commandments, teach them to obey everything he's commanded, which is the two greatest commandments, love God, love people.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then you know, bring hope to a sick and dying world, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus wants to see broken lives.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, so for me, it's that it's really those uh those uh commands of Christ that I believe is our mission as the church.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, to echo that just for a second, Jesus never told us to fill rooms, right?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: But he did tell us, he did tell us to create uh uh disciples, Matthew 28, 19, and 20.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: And and the way that we do that at J John 10, 10, uh life and life to the fullest, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: So you so you do that and you teach them to obey all that I command.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: Create community and connection.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: You see that throughout the book of Acts when the church was established.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: You create connect community and connection with people.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: So that that's my thing all the time at our church at Radiate, is we do life together.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: So create that connection and community, not just with God, that's number one, but with others.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and then you impact your communities, you go out.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's Matt, that's Matthew 28, 19 and 20, right there, is you go out.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like we get focused on I can't go across the world and make a difference.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, but you can go across your living room and make a difference.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: You can go across your workspace and make a difference.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so the mission of the church is not just to fill rooms.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a lagging indicator and a uh byproduct of becoming a healthy missional church, of leading people to Jesus, forming disciples, creating community and connection, and impacting the community that you call home.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: That wasn't bad, guys.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Don't you think?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: That was Brandon.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_04: That was pretty decent, man.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Brandon, I'm so glad you're on here because I'm usually the guy that he focuses on the picking on.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: And now it's you for some reason.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: I can promise you that if I'm in the room with Chip, it's gonna be directed at me.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: For some reason, it's just going to happen.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I just feel so free and happy right now.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, leaving me alone.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's great.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_04: All right, all right, let me ask you a question.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: Would it so would it be wrong?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: Would it be, would you guys be okay if I said I want the shortest possible answer?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I said the mission of the church is making disciples.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: Because to me, that covers everything.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: Because if we make a disciple properly, they're gonna do everything y'all just said.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, and again, let's just say for the sake of our our conversation today, is the church failing its mission?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_04: What's its mission?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: Making disciples, making disciples that live the Great Command uh commandment and fulfill the great commission, right?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: Is that fair?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: How do we figure out how we're doing?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: Fruit.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Look for the disciples.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Brandon, you made reference to he didn't call us to fill rooms.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: So I guess we can't use the size of the room and how many people are in it to judge our success.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: So how do we determine if we're succeeding at our mission?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: Fruit, man.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's exactly what I thought about.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's the impact.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: What what it's the fruit, it's the impact.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: The fruit makes impact.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Fruit is not for you, it's for those you're gonna encounter.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so what it's the fruit, and and what are you doing with it?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because we got a lot of Christians, excuse me being crude, that are fat on their own fruit.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: And and we're supposed to be making a difference in our communities and impacting that.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's what disciples do.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not changing the subjects, but uh, you know, we talk about discipleship, you know, uh Armando made reference to Matthew 28.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus said go.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, you got a lot of movements that are built around that.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_04: You know, Jesus said go, he didn't say stay or pray or whatever, he said go.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_04: You know, all that kind of emphasis.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: Well, here's here's a word I prefer, and that is attraction.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, think about forget church for a minute.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: Just think about what the word means.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: It means literally to draw toward.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, fruit's attractive.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: Fruit's beautiful, it smells good usually, tastes good, it's good for you.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_04: Fruit's very, very attractive.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_04: My deal is uh, you know, I didn't get saved in my early 20s.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I can I hate to say it, but the church was not very attractive.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: The Christians were not very attractive.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, the truth were they were kind of repulsive.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, that's a big part of it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_04: If we're gonna make disciples, I believe that I believe the best witness is a changed life.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_04: You yourself for 10, 20, 30 years, you get saved, and you come back to work, and a week or so later somebody comes up to you and says, Dude, you used to be angry all the time.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_04: What's going on with you?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: That's evangelism, in my opinion.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: Armando, you said, you know, how do we measure our success by the fruit?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_04: So if we wanted to do a large-scale test of the quality of our pastoring, let's use our our our our harvest field, the culture of America.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_04: How are we doing?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in my opinion, pretty poorly, uh, to be honest with you.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even just looking at the data and the stats out there just about pastors who are dealing with a mental health issue.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we sit here in churches very often and and use uh flashy labels like mental health crisis, but there's a crisis in leadership.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's from the top down ultimately.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So our churches are going to be reflective of the culture and the context of that leadership.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's gonna bleed into our society.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And today, let's be honest, like I, you know, I went to Bible college, you guys did as well.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: You've never taken a course that prepared us for the mental health issues that are happening right now on the pulpits, behind the scenes in leadership and within our within our churches and our greater context, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our our society is greatly uh uh you know uh separated on political issues, our you know, churches.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm up north, so you know, up in the north, it's a it's a very different context, you know.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you have a lot of division in churches.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so when you think about that, if pastors can't be healthy, they're not going to create healthy teams.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Healthy teams do not create healthy culture.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Healthy culture hurts churches.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, I you know, I I think the I think the conversation is starting because a lot of pastors are recognizing, and churches are recognizing, hey, we're really failing at this.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're not winning the culture war at all.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: As a country, look at the data and the stats.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's more churches closing that are opening.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: We see a lot of churches closing doors, healthy churches, which do exist, and there are some churches that are doing it right, that they're that they're right.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, those churches are growing and they will grow while the majority of churches close their doors over the next 15 years.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we got to ask ourselves why.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And a deciding factor is oftentimes the health of those congregations, the health of those leaders.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think by and large, you know, we don't have to lie to ourselves.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: We just look at the data, and the data is going to show what is truth.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is, I think churches, by and large, not all of them, a lot of them are getting it right, but by and large, they are failing miserably.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Chip, one thing that I've heard people say, and I've thought about this a lot, and I'm curious what you guys think is they would say, What are you talking about?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: The the church needs to be attractive.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus offended tons of people and didn't worry about it.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: The truth is offensive.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: The truth is offensive, but it seems like every single time people were offended by Jesus, it was church folk, legalists.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't the prostitutes and the drunkards ever.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know when they were ever offended by Jesus.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus never got firm, angry, or rebuke, and mode with a hurting person.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: The only people he really got on to is the church of the day and its leadership.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: And again, I I don't want to make the church beat up.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm really trying to get us to think about what are some of the missing pieces of the puzzle.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: There's a verse in Jeremiah 6, verse 14, says this they've healed the brokenness of my people superficially, saying, peace, peace, but there is no peace.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think we're as bad as we were when I got saved.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: But early in my Christian walk, I figured out that one of the things we were really good at is teaching people how to pretend.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, you you figured out once you got saved, you figured out the lingo real quick.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: And you and you figured out real quick when somebody shakes your hand and says, How are you doing?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_04: You either quote a scripture or say you're blessed or say you're fine or whatever.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: But you don't, you don't get real and you don't you don't take your mask off.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I I'm just crazy enough to believe the church ought to be the safest place on earth to be yourself right now, in whatever shape you're in.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and there are bright spots.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I love some of the stories you hear.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Another way to answer the question how do you measure if you look at the political landscape, it I mean, every you need to have an opinion.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: We're a democracy, you need to vote, you need to be an intelligent voter.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: And again, forgive me, I know this is offensive to some people.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_04: God never called.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: Called us to build a Christian nation.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: I don't see anywhere in Scripture he called us to build a Christian nation.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_04: He called us to build a kingdom within nations, but he never called us to build a Christian nation.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_04: And somehow people have got something wires crossed.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: They almost see it as the same thing.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_04: Building the kingdom of God is getting the right people elected and fighting the right battles and all.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I don't, I'm not picking out what you think is right or wrong.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm talking more about the why or the how than the why and the why.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_04: Here's my deal, man.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_04: You ask me about any leader or anybody.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: Here's my simple filter.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: Can I picture Jesus saying what you're saying the way you're saying it, or doing what you're doing the way you're doing it?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: And if I can't picture Jesus saying what you're saying, doing what you're doing the way you're doing it and saying it, I'm sorry, but I have a problem with it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: I watch people expressing their opinions, and I'm like, where do you put Jesus when you act like that?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: Do you send him to his room or something?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_04: But he can't be pleased with the spirit we're portraying in the political arena.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_04: Am I crazy or what?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I would I want to add, uh, because I think all that filters back to your question of how are we doing at its job, right?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think we went through a season and honestly a prolonged season to where uh churches learned how to attract crowds.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and and that's where this pleasing mentality and this pleasing um uh uh wording and all this attractional stuff.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not against any of that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: What I'm saying is though, is when you're only focused on attracting crowds, then forming disciples takes a backseat because forming disciples is gonna push up against people's comfort and challenge people and all that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's people aren't naturally gonna sign up for that.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I would say for a long time, what's happened is is a lot of what Armando was talking about, and Chip, what you've talked about, is it's failed at its job to develop strong Bible-believing Christians and disciples.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: I I believe I agree with that, but I do see a season where things feel like they're shifting.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think these conversations, mental health in the church, is beginning to take place.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I I think it's long overdue.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Chip, you know I think that.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: I I see you, you know, every month, a couple times a month.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think it's long overdue, and I I think more pastors and leaders need to have these conversations.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: But I think for a long time, the season was let's we know how to attract crowds, let's attract crowds, let's attract crowds.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that's fine.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: We get to tell more people about Jesus.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: But I think we we put some other things on the back burner, and now what's beginning to shift is, oh man, there's a volatile thing that's happening in our nation.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's a volatile thing that's happening in society, and nobody knows how to take a biblical stance in an election.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody knows how to take a biblical stance on on pro-life or not pro-life.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody knows how to take a biblical stance on transgenderism and homosexuality and things like that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: They only know how to spew what CNN and Fox News are saying and their favorite TikTok clips are saying.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: The reality is, is what has happened, and I think the shift has taken place, Chip.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think the church is going through a bit of a pruning and a changing season to where things are coming back to a place to where we're starting to have some conversations of our people don't know what the Bible says about this stuff.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: I I just saw a clip, and I don't mean to be controversial, so cut me off if you need to, but I just saw a video clip that's going viral right now about a pastor that's transitioning, and he just talked to his church about it.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, that's that's that how do you take a biblical stance on that?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: And people are you you can't.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and and so what I'm saying is you've gone through a lack of depth in discipleship in order to get a wide net, not a deep one.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the transition is coming now to where there's a season that's happening to where it's it's hey, we need a wide net so we can reach people, but there's got to be a depth to this thing that we have not put into place before.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that's and I think that, or I don't think, I know from my personal experience, I know that includes mental health.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: I know that includes not demonizing certain things and going, hey, it's mind, heart, soul, and strength.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's all of it.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's holistic discipleship, and we can't sacrifice that for the need.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so for a long time the church didn't do well at its mission because we got distracted.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's something happening in our world today that's forcing the mission back to the forefront.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Brandon, if I may jump in, I love what you're saying, brother.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I'm hearing you say is that uh don't don't encourage him, man.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, he's good, man.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: He's great.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um despite what he's saying.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know what?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because one followers of Jesus, what you're talking about is real true discipleship, is you got spirituality on one hand, you have your emotional and mental health kind of in the other, and you can't have one without the other.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't grow for uh in your mental health, it's gonna hijack your spirituality.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you just grow spiritually and not address the mental health, you actually become a Pharisee, right?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because then we still have all of these hurts and wounds.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and I do agree with you, I think as a church with a big C, we got to get back to redefining what is discipleship.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And our focus is to become fully formed followers of Christ, which means all of it has to be surrendered.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And churches, leaders, pastors, we have to develop language that gives people permission to explore the reality that maybe I have brokenness inside that I felt shame or guilt about.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And church, Chips Point, the church should be the safest place, should be the well where people can go and say, I'm willing to go deep here, and it's safe for me to have this honest conversation.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and pastors have to spearhead that.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, completely agree.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_04: To just to kind of make sure some people that might be listening get this.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: When we use the phrase mental health, we're using it for brevity.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's a quick, easy way to say something that covers a lot more ground than that.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_04: So let me just take a minute and clarify.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_04: Brandon said a minute ago that, you know, Christians that don't even know their Bible.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_04: Here's the deal: knowing your Bible doesn't equate into mental health.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: Knowing your Bible doesn't equate into spiritual health.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: Mental knowing your Bible equates into knowing your Bible.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: Here's the sad news Scripture says the devil knows the Bible.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_04: So it isn't knowing the Bible, it's experiencing the reality of that Bible in your life to the place that you embody the truth of it.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: After a point, you naturally live it out almost effortlessly.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: You become the word.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_04: The word, the the word that's engrafted in your soul heals and restores.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: The word save means to save, heal, prosper, protect, and make whole.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_04: So when we talk about mental health, uh, you know, all of us are pastors on this call.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: I I've preached the word for almost 50 years now, 45 years.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_04: God, why?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: Here's a person dealing with anger.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: Why is it not getting better?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_04: Here's a person dealing with jealousy or, you know, eating or whatever.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: Why is it not getting any better?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_04: And what it drove me to was, you know, be transformed.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't say by knowing your Bible.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_04: It says be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_04: Ephesians 4, 23, 22 says, be renewed in the spirit of your mind.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: There's all kinds of other verses.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: What are they, what does that mean?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: It means more than memorizing some scriptures.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_04: It means more than, you know, kind of learning a new narrative of creation and how the world came to be and, you know, creation, uh, the fall, salvation, I mean uh redemption and restoration, which I think we've got screwed up a little bit too, by the way.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_04: It means guys like Armando and I, and and and ladies and lots of others who have felt pulled into the arena of what I call sanctified psychology, meaning taking what psychology is unearthing, and I call it passing it through the cross and scripture and coming out the other side with some really, really solid, helpful stuff.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: Because if we don't do that, we're building, we're building this beautiful Bible-driven awareness on top of a nuclear waste dump.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because all that changed, all that changes at the new birth is your spirit, not your soul, not your body.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_04: The soul is mind, will, emotions.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's the repository for every experience you've ever had.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: And some of those have left you incapable of living a healthy, whole, free life.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_04: And psychology has learned some things to help us get in there and get people freed up.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: Now, you bring all of that together, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, anointed ministries, um, and people who are called to go out into the realms of science and neuroscience and psychology, you bring all that together, oh my gosh, we're gonna see some people set free, man.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_04: And and they're not gonna be pretending to be set free.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, ask anybody on the street, do you believe God loves you?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_04: Everyone, everyone, lost atheists can say yes.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_04: Here's the deal.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_04: Can I follow you around for a week?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_04: And do how many people do you think you're gonna find that really live, make decisions, take risks, enter into relationships, manage their life from the awareness that I am loved.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: I talk to Christians all the time, and Christians that 10, 20, 30 years as believers, and they still live in fear.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_04: They still live in fear that God's not happy with them.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_04: I talked to one recently that, I mean, this person's at every meeting, every time the doors are open.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_04: And you know what one of their fears is?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_04: Whether or not they're gonna go to heaven when they die.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: I'm thinking 20 years in the church, really?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_04: Is it because we haven't taught about heaven or no?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_04: But there's something inside of them, some hurt, some wound from their past that's blocking their ability to hear that, receive that, and enjoy that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_04: What we're historically doing is not gonna get to that.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_04: That's why I'm passionate about mental health and the mission of the church.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think what we've historically done in the church ship, now I've been guilty of this in my own life and in church and leadership, is we're really good at pruning branches that look dead, but not killing roots that create uh unhealthy fruit.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so what mental health really does, uh, this is what I've learned.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: I I think it's it's heart, soul, mind, strength.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's the four pillars of spiritual discipleship and spiritual growth, right?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm I'm with all that.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: But the reality is, is we're good with all that except mental health, a lot of times in the church, because what mental health does is it makes you go introspective and go, here's why you cannot, because there's a difference, Chip.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm about to get on soapbox with this.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: There's a difference in having faith that God loves you and trusting that God loves you.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's a difference in the two.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: Faith and trust are not the same.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's a new revelation that's changed my life.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: And the reality is, is there's a lot of people that have faith that God can, but they don't trust that God will.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: Mental health makes you go, why don't I trust God?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't I trust myself?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I trust me more than I trust God?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I trust?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's because I've never had somebody, honestly, until Chip came along, I've never had somebody in my life that cut the roots of a trust issue.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: All anybody's ever tried to do is cut the dead leaves off a branch.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so six months after the external motivation of trying to get better go away, the fruit grows right back.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it goes back to those are things that are super easy to tangibly fix.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you're you're thinking this here.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: Replace it with this scripture.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: It goes back to your illustration, Joey, earlier.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, have you read the Bible?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've read the Bible.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: But I also have some roots that I've got to introspectively figure out why in the heck they're even still there.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I've read the Bible cover to cover.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: I've done this, this, and this.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: I can't figure out why that's there.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: And until I get rid of the root, the fruit's gonna keep growing.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not a fruit that I nor anybody else in my life need.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: We can know the Bible and we should know the Bible.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: But knowing the Bible does not mean that you trust the Bible.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean that you trust God.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean that you trust what He has promised.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: That we are loved individuals and sons and daughters of God.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: Until we trust that, then mental health is gonna scare the mess out of us.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: Simply because you know, mental health, growth, change, discipleship, any of that's gonna challenge us and scare us.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because that means I'm not trusting me anymore, I'm trusting him now.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's a part where it's only my work and my hands are off.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm gonna do, I say like this at our church lately, I'm gonna do what only I can do, and then I'm gonna let God do what only He can do.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's it's it's it's that mentality that we have to go through this introspective work.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and it's not, listen, I don't want to take the Holy Spirit out of this because it's the Holy Spirit that helps us figure out here's how you change that habit, here's how you change that mindset, here's how you you've got to invite the Holy Spirit in, but just because I'm doing work on me doesn't mean the Holy Spirit can't work on me too.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's both and not either or.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Can you can and I and I may have heard you wrong, but I think I heard you right.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Can you unpack how paying closer attention and digging into the weeds of good mental health practices helped you come to a place where you were trusting God?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Did you make that connection?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like that that was a part of your mental health journey?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely, man.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: I so I'm I'm a high drip, I'm a high drive.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm highly driven, highly motivated, goal-oriented guy.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's it's not until recently, I I had some things going on in my life and um lost a best friend, a lot of transition and leadership, great things happening in the church, but my mental health, my mind just is not quiet.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: I have no confidence and all this.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't until something took place, and honestly, I was talking to Chip, and Chip told me this.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: He said, Brandon, the biggest issue you have is you don't trust God.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, No, I trust God.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: I pray all the time, I believe, I have faith in that.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: And he looked at me and it and something clicked, and I remembered.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: Even the demons have faith in God.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: The difference is not having faith, the difference is trusting him.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: And when I I started digging into this idea that the nut the thoughts, I'm I can't control the thoughts that pop up, but I can control how long they stay there.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I can control who they submit to, and if they're biblical, and if they're right.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I started working on me, I wasn't worried about pleasing everybody else, attracting credit.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: When I started working on me as the leader, then I started going, man, I'm giving myself way too much credit.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: At one point, I think Chip said it like this.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm letting y'all into my counseling sessions now, but I think Chip said it like this: Brandon, at best, you've been 60% trusting God, 40% trusting you at best.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, that's not true, Chip.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a pastor.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then I started thinking through my childhood.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: I started thinking through my accomplishments, I started thinking through how the guilt I carry and the shame of things and all this stuff, and how I feel like I'm super man, I got to fix everything.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I started thinking through that, and I was like, I don't.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: I invite God into the process, and then I say, Hey, God, why don't you take a seat in the corner and watch me do work?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: And when I started working on my mental health, Joey, and I started figuring that side of me out, those introspective, difficult conversations, and I started sitting down with my wife and going, I'm thinking this.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is that true?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: And she would go, Yeah, I've been trying to tell you that for the 17 years, you know, like whatever.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: But when I started figuring that out, I started going, okay, yeah, I'm not trusting God enough.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I started separating my role in every situation, literally, every single decision.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: I asked this question, what's my role and what's God's role?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because the problem comes in, and my mental health for me, and I I would suspect for a lot of Christians, pastors, leaders out there, absolutely the problem comes in whenever I carry my responsibility and his responsibility.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now the yoke is not easy and the burden is not light.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: Now I'm trudging through mud and concrete trying to make this thing happen, and God's going, hey, I'm over here.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's my church, you're my son.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: I I'd appreciate you letting me be a part of this too.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, God, in a minute, in a minute.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: So, Joey, a long answer to a short question.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: When I started fixing my thought process and the way that I divided all this stuff out, and nobody can decide that for me but me.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: God can even try to get me to decide it, but I got to make the decision.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: And when I started figuring that side out, it has changed everything in my life.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: Is it easy?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm still walking it, but it's changed my trust in God to where I'm like, I don't have to freak out about this.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard work, isn't it?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard, man.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have to freak out in stress because here's the reality.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: I did everything I can do.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I did it the right way with character and integrity, and I did it with inviting the Holy Spirit in the process.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: God, the rest is up to you, bud.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm with you in the process the rest of the way.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know what was cool, this thing that uh Brandon's talking about.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we had one appointment that you could just tell God had kind of rang some bells and connected some dots.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: And the next time we met, as soon as the camera came on, Brandon looked different.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: He just looked different.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_04: You could just tell something had been altered.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what we're talking about.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yes, we trust the Holy Spirit.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, we trust the Word of God and it's a power, it's inherent power, but we also trust the design of this thing that God housed us in.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_04: Your spirit expresses itself through your soul, your soul expresses itself through your body.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, they're they're interdependent.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: And if your soul's not healthy, you can pump all the spirit stuff in there you want.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's still gonna come out in twisted ways.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_04: And the frustrating thing to guys like Armando and I, and and Brandon, you're gonna get there yourself as you as you continue down this path and you see other people that are kind of stuck in the past.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_04: I watch guys that are caught in cycles, and here's what I say to myself dude, there's ways to fix that.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: I I watch guys who fall and get in trouble, and some of them I know, and some of them I've even worked with, and they were lying to me through the process.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I met with guys that the whole time we were doing marriage counseling, they were having an affair.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: And I think to myself, guys, there's help for this, but you gotta ask, and you gotta come hungry, and you gotta come honest.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what breaks my heart.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: So Brandon gives us a uh personal example of how mental health can affect your spiritual life.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you guys think that mental health can impact the church's ability to be successful at its mission?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think of Galatians 5.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think about the uh fruit of the spirit.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what that looks like is we're aiming not just to uh teach biblical literacy, but biblical application in the midst of all of this.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: What does it really mean to to pick up your cross and follow Christ?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's an examining of one's soul.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think ancient monasticism really had a uh monopoly on this idea, this sense of uh self-uh introspection, this uh willingness and this desire to understand what is really motivating unhealthy behavior in my life.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's real, I think the mental health piece that Brandon's talking about comes in.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I and we've all experienced this.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: The proverbial woman who who comes to church, she's praising God, but she just ended up yelling at her kids like crazy on her way to church.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like there's almost this dichotomy, two different people, two personas, two masks.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and this level of self-introspection, this willingness to walk with God is one's willingness to look at oneself.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: There is no healing without first identifying what's broken.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to be able to diagnose the problem, and then you have to then go through the hard part of surrendering.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of pastors, leaders, and church attenders, folks that are walking with Christ that have not had healing, these are these past traumas we're not dealing with in life.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's jacking our ability up to have the fruit of the spirit in our lives.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what's coming out of us is really the fruit of the flesh.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not just sin, it's not a desire to sin.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where I feel a lot of compassion and empathy.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's brokenness, it's self-protection, it's fear of vulnerability, it's fear to be touched, it's fear to be trusted or to trust somebody.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's all of these areas where you've been violated in your life that you no longer want to be vulnerable.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then we project that onto God, which is what Chip was talking about a little earlier.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this even prohibits us from experiencing the fullness of God and who God is.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: But once all of that gets healed, we then can now experience, we can truly know what it means to be known by God and to know God, to be in his presence, to dwell with him.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And as that well, and as we come to him empty now, because before we were coming with things, and he's emptied us, he's able to fill us.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then once he fills us, we're able to go out and serve Jesus without being about us.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know how many Christians serve God, they give, they do all the right things, they check all the right boxes, but really what they're looking for is some sense of validation, affirmation.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing a good job, and I they they do things with wrong motive, even though it looks really good on the outside.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, let's not be judgmental here, because we've all been there.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: When a lot of times we're doing things to get the approval of the applause of people.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Not because we necessarily want their approval or their applause, but it's because you never got it from mom or dad.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what you got from mom and dad was something else, but you're still seeking for it.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does it look like to truly be healed in that that really, truly your reward is God and God's approval?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're serving and you're doing and you're being the hands and feet of Jesus, but you're not doing it because of some altered sense of works-oriented righteousness.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're not doing it to gain points with God.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: You're not doing it to be valuable, to feel good about yourself.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing it simply because you're driven by love.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in that, now you're able to really pick up the cross of Christ.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're able to put on the image of Christ, to go out and be Jesus to other people, but you can't be that if there's ulterior motive or stuff that's still inside of us that prohibits us.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you might look like a Christian on the outside, but the inside, God sees and knows the heart.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the deal: you know your heart too.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know the pain, you know the hurts, you know the wounds.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: So going back to your question, Joey, like what does that look like for the church?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: It means being honest.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: It means holding up that mirror.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: It means creating a culture that says, I want to be healed, I want to be better, and I'm willing to bring it to the cross.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that might mean for some of us a really killer small group.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: It might mean a celebrate recovery.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: It might mean meeting with a life coach.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: It might mean meeting with a spiritual advisor.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: It might mean meeting with a Christian counselor.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's all of those things, depending on where we're at or at different seasons in life.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: But your life, our lives, and we've got to be able to preach this at the church, God has called you to a time such as this.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your life and God's will, his purpose, your potential, it's too valuable to waste while we're jacked up.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really the enemy's plan for our lives.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: He can't steal our salvation.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if he can cause us to feel shame and guilt and pride that we're unwilling to deal with ourselves, he literally renders us um inoperable for the kingdom of God, renders us unproductive.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: But God has created us for productivity.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in order to get there, we have to heal fully and completely.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of my my shtick on it.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: So would we say that if someone is getting, and and I'm gonna I'm gonna flip mental health uh around here because I think a lot of people just think that as the science, excuse me, the science.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: But if someone is being discipled well, then we would say they are getting healthier mentally, right?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you can't truly, and Brandon said it best early.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: He brought us back to the book of Acts, right?
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people heal within the context of community.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: God's answer to many of the problems in the world and some of the social issues we're having, what's his plan A?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: What's his plan A?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's the church, the church's ability to love well and not be a bunch of hypocrites or phony Christianity, surface-level Christianity.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a true life transformed, which enables us to love God.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's a vertical relationship, but also the horizontal relationship.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like and what does it mean to love people and to love them well, right?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's all of that.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't I don't think you can do that isolated.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can do that without working on yourself.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's, I mean, if you look at scripture, book of Acts, you know, man, people were called out for their for their disingenuous behaviors toward one another, right?
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's part of discipleship, right?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and to just tell somebody, hey, don't do that, what if it's an addiction?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: What if it's a uh a controlling habit of their life, telling somebody not to do it, which is what Brandon talked about, just cutting the branches back, you're not dealing with the roots of the problem.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: These are strongholds of lives.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they are.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're strongholds.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it goes back to what Chip was saying as far as when someone accepts Christ, it it's only changing the spirit, which is a big deal.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I think we have this assumption that, well, you have Jesus in you, so you should be better at that.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that's that's the people who have a negative attitude of mental health.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, if we have Jesus, you should just be healthier.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I was thinking uh at some point, Joey, when you asked that question, like, how does the church embracing and uh partner and cooperating with mental health, how does that help us achieve our mission?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_04: The brain is designed to notice um exceptions, changes, newness.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_04: Your brain's a pattern recognizer and a pattern creator.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_04: And so, you know, you you you you you go into a relationship, your work, or anything familiar.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_04: And if you just expect certain things, it's kind of like you, you know, you let's say you went to work and to your total surprise, they they repainted.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you would notice that.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_04: Why I see mental health as part of being successful at our mission is Brandon is gonna have peers, pastor friends, whether it's a month from now or six months from now, they're gonna meet him as he continues down this journey and pulls more roots and experiences more health and growth.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_04: They're gonna say to him, dude, what's different about you?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_04: They really are.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe it's already happened some with somebody.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_04: But here's the deal: same thing with somebody we're discipling.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_04: You know, they they they struggle with something.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't mean in a, you know, you lay hands on him, cast it out.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'm talking about in a process of finding those roots and pulling those roots and all that kind of thing.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but at some point they go back into a familiar relationship, and the other person notices something is different.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_04: Now, when somebody notices a shift and you know you can tie it back to the redemptive process of God, there ain't no easier witnessing than that.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_04: There's just not.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_04: You talk about an attentive audience, because chances are they wrestle with the same thing or something similar.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what breaks my heart.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_04: We could be, we could be discipling people at a deeper level.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_04: Is it slower?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_04: And that's part of why the church resists it.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: We're a Western American culture and we believe in big and fast.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_04: We have an assembly line mentality to Christianity.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_04: Here's what drives me crazy.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_04: What we're really, you know, we that's why I wanted to clarify the mental health thing a little bit.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want anybody to think that we're talking about you've got to involve a mental health trained professional.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's not what we're talking about.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_04: We're talking about understanding how God designed the soul to work.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, the church has participated in some of the learning in that area, but most of it's been done out there in science and psychology and neuroscience and those kind of areas.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, let's take advantage of it.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_04: And there's some principles, practices, understandings that we can bring into our realm that are just incredible.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's, you know, all this stuff affects way, it affects how I preach, what I preach, the tone I put on it.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_04: I use more secularized language.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_04: Why?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: They don't live in church like we do.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_04: So I want to talk a language they can resonate with.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: And there's ways to get in there and and connect dots that they haven't connected yet.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_04: And it's an amazing moment.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_04: Like I'm honored.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'm honored to have played a role in Brandon's life.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm honored for him to share that.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm proud of you, man.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm proud of you, man.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: You're hungry.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_04: And man, when you come come for a call, I can hit you with a two by four.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_04: And all you're gonna say is talk to me.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_04: You just you're just hungry, man.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: You don't you don't want to be right, you want to do right.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_04: And that's there's a difference.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_04: There's a difference.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and I think, Chip, for a long time, and I I appreciate that because it it I've I've got a newfound respect for this.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think for a long time, I grew up in a in a very charismatic church, and and that's great.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: I I have no problem with charismatic or non-charismatic.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: That that part doesn't necessarily matter to me.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: But I think in in general, what's happened is we've honored the spirit and ignored the brain.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: And and when in all reality, um this is maybe a crude um triggering illustration, but it it works.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's like looking at a woman that was sexually assaulted in her life, and she gets married and she has a problem with sexual acts with her husband, and she gives her life to the Lord, and we look at her and go, all right, you're good now.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: There should be nothing.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: When in all reality, she's never gone and excavated all the pain that that caused and figured out how to think through it.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: Did Jesus save her soul?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, Jesus saved her soul.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: Is the Holy Spirit gonna work with her through the process?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, he's gonna work with her through the process.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: But if I ignore the neuropath and I ignore the the the you you name it, adrenal fatigue, hyperactive amygdala, and all that stuff that's taking place, because I've been on this learning thing with this, right?
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: You ignore all that.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: What you're doing is you're looking at the Holy Spirit and saying, you do the work that I'm not willing to.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: And and it's unrealistic.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: And the problem, I think you hit it, Chip.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's easier for me to go and do work with my hands and sit in a recliner every evening and not worry about anything else and expect Jesus to do all the work than it is for me to go, I'm gonna work with my hands and and I'm gonna let the Holy Spirit guide my heart to help me unearth some things that I don't want to, I don't want to think about, I don't want to go through again.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: But if I don't excavate them, I'm never gonna get healing from them.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: And what is birthed in the dark and left in the dark multiplies in the dark.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, absolutely.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to I've got to take the things from the darkness, bring them into the light of Jesus.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the problem with many of us in the church world, in discipleship world, and in me, this is what I've done for a long time.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: The light of Jesus overcomes all darkness.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: So therefore, I don't have to pull it out of darkness.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: He's gonna shine light on it.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, no, no, no.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: I still gotta put it under a lamp.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I gotta put it under there, and I gotta look at him and go, deal, help me deal with this.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, I don't, I don't even, I don't get it.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why I've got this.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_04: That often is gonna require you being courageous enough to meet with somebody else that has some knowledge and skills.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_04: And uh one of the things we're working on is putting together some plans to raise up lay people as mental health coaches.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_04: They're not fully trained professionals, but the goal would be that they come out of it really, really understanding how this stuff works and how God partners with us to help fix it.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_04: Your example of the uh the woman who was abused, that's a perfect example.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_04: That's perfect.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_04: Because that's it could it could be as bad as that, as big as that, it could be as little as, like in my case, a father who at 17 told me the second time in my life that he loved me.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_04: Now that's by anybody's definition, that's not enough.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that affected me.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_04: It affected how I related to God until God got in there and and pulled up the root and built some new ones to where I'm able now to recognize, receive, and rest and enjoy his love.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Armando, I I love what you said, and I've never heard the connection with picking up, taking up your cross and following Jesus.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: You would say that's that's talking about the hard work of getting better.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: If you're following Jesus, then you're following him to that more abundant life, and that takes work.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, Chip, it it also sounds like you are saying that the mental health and the church are not working well together.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like you're saying it's more on the church.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: Am I reading too much into that?
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm not sure I'd go that far uh on the last part.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_04: I believe there's a type of arrogance that comes on counselors when they get fully trained.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_04: They they go to school, they they go through this process of supervision, uh, what do you call it, uh, Marmondo, internship.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_04: They they become licensed.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they they answer to this uh kind of closed community, and they've learned a language that that community shares, a set of uh uh values and practices that that community shares.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_04: And um they're as resistant to uh inter interdisciplinary uh partnering as the church is.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_04: So, no, I wouldn't put it all on the church.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think, and again, you know, we're all we're already out in the branch to be cut off.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_04: I think uh the licensure process has robbed a lot of counselors of their courage.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, well, I I can't do that because I might lose my license.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_04: How in the stinking world do you know?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: I've talked to guys who push the limits.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_04: One guy I talked to spent$10,000 with lawyers checking out some things that he wanted to do with his practice.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_04: And those lawyers,$10,000, they came back and said to him, you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than losing your license over those issues.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's the truth.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_04: The professional counseling arena is no different than our culture right now, it's very cancel-driven.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_04: So if you're the one guy in the room who has a contrarying opinion, you are not going to have a fun time.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_04: People just hate conflict.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_04: And all we need is a handful of people who are willing to say it doesn't have to be this way.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I think more will join.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_04: And whatever.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've I've had conversations in in every profession we hide behind some of our little catchphrases.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, well, that's a dual role relationship, or oh, that's this, or oh, that's that.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm just like, shut up, man.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we're we're called to help you people.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_04: If somebody's in front of you bleeding, metaphorically, you're not gonna stop the bleeding because it's, you know, you they're a friend of yours or you know them through work or whatever.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, dear Jesus, man.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I know there's there's there's reasons for some of those policies, but dude, we have taken them so far it's it's embarrassing.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the bottom line, when I went back to school to get my master's, I went to a secular school.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_04: I felt like God, number one, led me to go back to school and get my master's.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_04: Number two, I felt like he specifically led me back to the citadel, which is where I got my undergrad.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_04: And two things came out of that.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_04: One, I fell back in love with sinners.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_04: I was pastoring.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_04: I was never around lost people.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_04: And the class was full of probably predominantly lost people.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_04: And here's what I realized is the second observation.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_04: The mental health people in mental health professions, they love people.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_04: They love them as much as we do.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_04: They just don't know what we know.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_04: They haven't seen what we've seen, they've not experienced what we experienced.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_04: And the last thing in the world we could do is judge them and be harsh toward them.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_04: I saw lots of love in those rooms, man.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_04: Now, did they think Jesus was the answer?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_04: I tell people all the time what's wrong with psychology is it starts wrong and it ends wrong.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_04: It starts wrong because they don't believe in the fallenness, depravity of man.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_04: It ends wrong because they don't believe we need a savior.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_04: But in between the wrong start and the wrong ending, they got some really, really good stuff.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm really glad that I went back to school.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I found a lot of the techniques that I was taught in school, not all of them, but a lot of them were easy to find in scripture.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_04: They were easy to find in scripture.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: I know something that I'm gonna do next time we have Armando on here is I'm gonna make up a story that's even worse than the one that I told at the beginning of this one and see him get really fired up.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be fucking.